EP 316 A Fertility Story of Loss and Hope | Samantha Bonizzi

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, Samantha Bonizzi shares her deeply personal journey through pregnancy loss, the challenges of trying to conceive, and the emotional rollercoaster of navigating IVF. She emphasizes the importance of community, support, and mental health resources during such a difficult time. Samantha also discusses her motivation for co-authoring a book that shares stories of fertility loss and hope, aiming to help others feel less alone in their experiences. Samantha highlights the significance of self-care, therapy, and trusting one's intuition throughout the journey to motherhood.

About Samantha:

Samantha is a writer with a background in public relations and communications. She spent her early career working in PR for lifestyle brands and has since transitioned to a corporate internal communications role at a tech company. 

She grew up in New Jersey, where she’s lived most of her life (besides a brief stint in New York City), and now resides just outside Montclair with her husband and mini bernedoodle. She loves the area and has written several stories about things to do and places to go for a local lifestyle website, The Montclair Girl. She also loves reading, working out and doing yoga, hiking and being outdoors, and traveling. 

Samantha has always had a passion for wellness and women’s health, which has taken center stage in her life since experiencing pregnancy loss and fertility challenges. Now, she wants to pay what she's learned forward and is on a mission to help women who find themselves on similar paths.

IG: @sam.bonizzi 

IG: @thelosseswekeep 

Website: https://samantha-bonizzi-bookshop.square.site  

For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Be sure to check out our Fertility Empowerment Holiday Bundle here https://www.michelleoravitz.com/fertilityempowermentbundle before it’s gone! 

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Transcript:

Michelle (00:00)

Welcome to the podcast, Samantha.

Samantha Bonizzi (00:02)

Thank you so much for having me. Excited to chat with you today.

Michelle (00:05)

Me too. So excited to chat with you and I've worked with you before and I'm excited to have you on and super excited that you co-authored this book. And I would love for the listeners to hear your journey and really what inspired you to share your story with others.

Samantha Bonizzi (00:26)

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So just to take a bunch of steps back and kind of share what led me to this point, I guess to start, know, we, my husband and I wanted to start a family. And so like most of our generation, you know, I was on birth control for 12 years and in talking to my doctor about, you know, starting to try.

It was as simple as, know, get off birth control, start trying and see what happens. It should happen pretty quickly if you're lucky. So that's exactly what we did. Sure enough, we were pregnant within a few months of trying, which we were, you know, very excited about, of course, and, you know, just thought we were lucky in that it happened to us so quickly. We

You know, initially, I've kept the news to ourselves for the first eight or nine weeks. And at that point, things had been going well when we went in for our first initial appointments. You know, we saw the heartbeat. The doctor said everything was looking good. The first big milestone, of course, is that 12, 13 week appointment when you go in for the genetic testing. And, you know,

Like I said, up until this point, we at first were being pretty discreet with the news, but we did start to share with close family and friends. We weren't shouting it from the rooftops yet, but we definitely, you know, we were excited. And so we started to tell some of our immediate circle. and so we went in for that appointment, pretty naive. think, we, I had, of course, as a woman, you're familiar with the fact that miscarriages can happen.

My mom had even had two miscarriages during her, after she had me before my brother. But it wasn't something that we really talked about. And it wasn't anything even in my immediate circle in terms of friends or close family members, anything that they had gone through. So I was pretty naive going in. I think we went into that appointment.

excited to just be in an ultrasound and see the baby. It had been five weeks, I think, since I had been in for an appointment. So we were just, you know, excited to see the baby. And even when the nurse was doing the initial ultrasound, the baby came up on the screen. We were like, we didn't notice anything was wrong. We were just like very excited. And then all of sudden we did notice that the technician went quiet. You know,

Michelle (03:07)

Mm.

Samantha Bonizzi (03:16)

she was kind of dynamic with us in the beginning when we first came in and then all of a sudden her her demeanor changed right away. And then at that point she left to go get the doctor. The doctor came in and simply told us that we didn't have a viable pregnancy. And it was it wasn't our doctor because it was like this genetic doctor that was doing this particular scan for us. So luckily our doctor was in

Michelle (03:42)

Mm-hmm.

Samantha Bonizzi (03:45)

the same building. So we're able to be like ushered into see the doctor right away and kind of walk through what our next steps would be. But we were just very shocked. We were not expecting that to happen, especially, you know, getting up until that 13 week mark is where we were at. So we kind of felt like and I think also I didn't understand the concept of a missed miscarriage, which is what happened to us.

Michelle (03:51)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Samantha Bonizzi (04:14)

When I thought of a miscarriage before, assumed it was something that happened where you started to bleed and it happened at home and you know clearly like you are having a miscarriage. So when I went in there and they told me we didn't have a viable pregnancy, I didn't know what that meant, how that happened, why that happened. So it was all very shocking, I would say. So it was at that point, we talked to our doctor, he recommended having a DNC.

Michelle (04:23)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Samantha Bonizzi (04:42)

which is what we did a few days later and you know, you go into the hospital and that was my first time in that hospital where I thought we would be delivering our baby and then you have to go in there and remove the baby. so that was really, I guess, a surreal moment. and you know, to be frank, like the DNC procedure is pretty quick and painless and you wake up and you're just, the baby's gone. It's not.

Michelle (04:53)

Wow, yeah.

Samantha Bonizzi (05:10)

inside of you anymore. And you're just kind of left unsure of what to do next. They don't really provide you with any resources. They just send you on your way. And in talking with my doctor, he was like, you know, we'll follow up with the results. Like that's part of the reason we did the DNC so that they could test the tissue to kind of confirm because they had he had projected it was likely a chromosome issue. But they wanted to make sure of that. So

said they would follow up in a few weeks. And in terms of like getting pregnant again, it was really like, you could start trying as soon as you get your next period. It's up to you in terms of when you're emotionally ready. Like, well, how am going to know if I'm emotionally ready? Like, this is such a shock to the system. So, you know, I think at that point I was shook for sure. And like I said, I didn't have anybody in my

Michelle (05:54)

Yeah. Yeah.

Samantha Bonizzi (06:06)

immediate circle who had been through anything like that. So I kind of didn't know where to turn. At the same time, I didn't really go out and seek a lot of resources because I felt like, you know, the way the doctor described it, it was something that could happen to anybody. It was a spontaneous thing. You know, it's not an indication of there being a problem with you being able to hold on to a pregnancy. So just try again.

And so I think I was just determined, you know, I'm a very, I have a very, I think, know, type a personality where I'm like, okay, let's just like get it done. Let's keep trying. We can do this. And so I was sad, of course, but I was also at the same time, like so determined to just make it work the next time. And so we did really jump into trying again right away. And I think we were pregnant three months later.

Michelle (06:44)

Hmm.

Samantha Bonizzi (07:05)

and you know, I think when you deal with a pregnancy after loss, you're robbed of a lot of things. there's no longer like an immediate joy of a positive pregnancy test because it's like quickly followed with fear and anxiety. It's the same thing can happen to you, you know, going, going into an ultrasound is scary because especially if that's where you found out about your miscarriage, there's a sphere that you're going to receive the same news.

Michelle (07:29)

Bye.

Samantha Bonizzi (07:34)

And, you know, all those things were definitely building up in my head when we found out we were pregnant. At the same time, I just felt like surely it wouldn't happen to us again. You know, I was sure that we had paid our dues and like this was something that just randomly happened to us the first time and that we would be okay. And even as the doctor, you know, he had flagged

a few concerns, things like the fetal heart rate and the size of the sac and those types of things. And he of just had us continue to come back every two weeks to kind of check on those markers. But I still was like, no, this is gonna work. And so when he told us eight weeks that it would again wasn't a viable pregnancy, I think I was even almost more shocked.

Michelle (08:13)

you

Well.

Samantha Bonizzi (08:28)

than the first time and you would think that, okay, you've been through this, you know how to deal. It wasn't like that because after the second one, it was almost worse because the realization set in that this wasn't just a spontaneous thing that happened to us. Like to have these miscarriages back to back, I felt like, okay, something must be wrong. Either I've done something to deserve this and I'm being punished or something is wrong with us where this isn't working.

Michelle (08:32)

Right.

Samantha Bonizzi (08:55)

I think especially being in that short time window too. And when you see everyone around you, like I had all my friends were having babies at that time and it worked for them. Why isn't it working for us? So it was again a shock. I think at that point I told myself we need to slow down. We need to kind of understand if

there is an underlying issue we need to kind of reassess before we just jump into trying again. And I don't know if that's, I don't know exactly what led from the first to the second. And if we did try too soon, I'll never know how those answers, but I just felt like we had to slow down and just reassess what was happening. So at that point, I, you know, I started to go to a fertility clinic, started to have all the testing.

that they recommend for recurring pregnancy loss. And that took a few months. And through all of that, they said everything seems to be fine. It's likely due to poor egg quality or bad luck that this happened, which is on one hand reassuring because when there's not a glaring issue, you at least know, okay, well, this is, you know, there's not something, you know, glaring that's

preventing this from happening. But on the other hand, it's like, if it's bad luck, then why is this happening? And that's actually the title of my chapter is, if nothing is wrong, then how do we fix it? Which is how I felt. You're telling me nothing's wrong, well then what is our path forward? And really it was left unclear. It was, you could do IVF and potentially reduce your risk of miscarriage because you could do things like,

Michelle (10:30)

Right. Yeah.

Samantha Bonizzi (10:46)

you know, the genetic testing and everything where you have more of a chance of having a healthy embryo. But that's not a guarantee. Or if you feel more comfortable trying it naturally, you can do that. And so there was this sort of leaning recommendation towards IVF. But then you're like, well, this is a fertility clinic. Do they just want me to do the IVF? Is this really what's best for us? So

Michelle (10:53)

Right.

Right.

Samantha Bonizzi (11:11)

In hearing all that, you you kind of go through, at least for me, I went through sort of a spiral of guilt around, again, why was this happening? If there isn't a, if there isn't a medical reason, what is the reason, you know, kind of searching for answers in all of it? So you, you know, I definitely went through spirals of why me. And I think what helped at that point was just like hearing other people's stories.

And it really took a lot of effort for me to find those people to connect with on the topic who had been through it. Like I said, I didn't have anybody I knew personally who had been through it, at least on a close knit level. So it was like taking to social media and being connected through friends to other women who had been through something similar and who came out on the other side.

Michelle (11:50)

Hmm.

Samantha Bonizzi (12:09)

And I think that was what was most helpful. I did support groups as well. And I think that was also helpful in just having those regular touch points with people who are going through the same thing that you're going through and just got it. So I think between those two things, that, that really helps with those negative spirals of emotion that I was feeling. you know, in considering IVF, which was a big decision,

Michelle (12:09)

Mm-hmm.

Samantha Bonizzi (12:38)

It was talking to people who had done IVF and really understanding the process from them that sort of gave me the push to give it a shot. think ultimately it came down to just what I thought best in my gut for us, like in talking to my husband about it. And we felt like it was the right call for us. But again, it was a very hard decision.

Michelle (12:55)

Yeah.

Samantha Bonizzi (13:09)

I think, yeah, it was tough, but we ultimately decided to go through with the IVF. And I'm very grateful that we did because we were lucky enough where we had a successful retrieval and a successful transfer. And I'm currently nine months pregnant. So that's kind of where I'm at in a nutshell. And what led me to the book,

Michelle (13:30)

Yeah.

Samantha Bonizzi (13:37)

I had been connected, the lead author, her name is Jamie Christ. She was somebody I was connected to through my cousin who actually lives in Miami. And when I was in Miami visiting her, my cousin, that's when I wanted to see you and I was going through the fertility treatment. But my cousin connected me with Jamie as one of those women who had been through something similar to what I was going through to kind of talk through different.

Michelle (13:47)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Samantha Bonizzi (14:04)

aspects of the journey and resources and things of that nature. And so we kind of just kept in touch and then she was looking for authors to join her on this anthology project that she was working on. And I decided at the time I hadn't found out I was pregnant. I didn't even find out I was pregnant yet. I was just about to transfer when I decided to do it. But it was something, you know, during my journey

Michelle (14:28)

Mm-hmm.

Samantha Bonizzi (14:34)

I had been journaling a lot and kind of writing about my experience and I always thought, you know, it would be great to share this one day. And so this felt like the right opportunity to do that and to start talking about it and sharing my story. So I joined Jamie and eight other authors, including myself on this book called The Losses We Keep, Our Journey of Fertility, Loss and Neverending Hope.

And it's just a compilation of our stories. So we each have a chapter and we share, you know, what we went through and every story is unique and different. So there's really something for everybody who's either going through, going through it or know somebody who's going through it. So it's really beautiful how it all came together and yeah, kind of what led me there.

Michelle (15:26)

I that's so beautiful that first of all, I think there's something therapeutic about sharing your story and getting your story out there. Plus, that is going to help others And it's kind of interesting when you were talking about your experience with a doctor and it was kind of like you went and then they're like, okay, you know, well, it's good luck next time. And then you're off.

with no guidance whatsoever. I hear that story time and time again. I hear it so much that I'm don't they create some kind of like the mental health aspect? Why don't they create some kind of support for people? Because I feel like that's part of the whole process. I feel like it should be part of it. When you're going through a loss like that, and it's often your first loss and

you don't know who to talk to and you might not have a community. Some people don't have anybody like at all. So I just don't understand why I feel like it should be protocol for people going through it. And so that's why I love the fact that you actually wrote the story because I feel like when people hear other people's stories, I think the biggest thing and tell me if this is accurate, it's just knowing that you're not alone, that you're not like alone in this experience.

Samantha Bonizzi (16:24)

Yep.

Yeah.

It says that's exactly right. And that was a big part of my why too. was partly being therapeutic and kind of being able to get all of this out there and get it on the page and share it. But it was also being able to help other women feel less alone because that was something I so needed when I was going through it was to have that sense of community or just.

hearing people who had been through the journey and who ended up on the other side. And that's a lot of what Jamie talks about too and why she started this project was because when she was going through it, like, yes, there were resources that you can find in books and things, but at times could feel sort of negative. And she just needed the optimism. And this is really, you know, it's meant to be a beacon of hope for women who are going through it. Yeah.

Michelle (17:25)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah, I love that. Yeah. It's just, it's something that is so needed. because I think when you're going through that, you really don't have any guarantee. you just don't know how tomorrow is going to be and like how it's going to work out. And it's always kind of like having faith. Okay, well, you know, my past has been disappointment and loss and hurt and pain. And so is my future going to look like that too?

Samantha Bonizzi (17:46)

Yeah.

Michelle (17:58)

And then what I also thought was really interesting, and I think it's great that you bring up is that when you talked about IVF and you considered it and all the different thoughts that you have, all these things that you think in the back of your head, like, well, are they trying to sell this on me? These are those little thoughts that we all have, but we don't always speak or even acknowledge. It's kind of like sitting there behind everything.

Samantha Bonizzi (18:22)

Yeah.

Michelle (18:24)

So when you're thinking that what I found really amazing with how you described it is that you assessed, kind of sat with it and you also address the fact that you're like, wait, rather than saying, okay, this is better luck next time, let me try again, again, because there's nothing wrong and kind of going with what you were being told, you let your inner guidance, your inner wisdom, I call it, it's almost like our inner compass leads you to

uncovering more and you're like, wait, I'm not going to put myself through this again, before I get more information. And then also when you got information, you assessed everything and you listened to your gut. always talk to people about that because even I, as a practitioner, cannot bypass that. that's your, you have the intelligence inside your body, inside your mind that guides you to what is right for you.

Samantha Bonizzi (19:22)

Yeah, I mean, that was a big, big part of it because it was such a, it was such a heavy decision and you could weigh out the pros and cons all day long. But at the end of the day, it's just what you feel in your gut is right. And I think for us, and I say us, cause it really was a joint decision between my husband and I, even though it was my body, we just felt like we needed to try something different. You know, what we had done historically wasn't working and you know, we trusted

Michelle (19:46)

Yeah.

Samantha Bonizzi (19:51)

the doctor that we were working with and we trusted the clinic and I had done a lot of the leg work to get us to that point. I switched fertility clinics, I switched doctors even at that fertility clinic once I was there. So I felt like I had done so much to get us to that point and it felt like the right next step. mean, there was certainly doubt in all of that because I didn't know, I didn't know what was going to happen and the thought of IVF is scary. When you haven't been through it, you don't know.

Michelle (20:07)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Samantha Bonizzi (20:20)

And I had never dealt with anything medically before either. So even just like being in and out of the doctor and all of that and dealing with doctors, I wasn't used to that. So that was something I really had to orient myself around and learn how to talk to doctors and advocate for ourselves. know, like with all the testing and everything, there were moments where I really did have to advocate and push for more testing and push for them to test my husband's sperm because there was...

Michelle (20:37)

Right. Yeah.

Samantha Bonizzi (20:48)

point one which they didn't want to and you know that would feel good to have it be put on the women. So there was a lot of moments where you kind of have to, I don't know, you kind of learn and grow from it I think and that's at least what I tried to take from it but it was all definitely a challenge but yes I agree that just listening to your intuition at the end of the day is what's gonna push you forward.

Michelle (20:51)

Yep.

Totally.

Yeah, no doubt. And I know that the community was like a big thing for you too, is just connecting with other people helped you get strength, but also clarity, I imagine.

Samantha Bonizzi (21:29)

Yeah, yeah, definitely. And I think, like I said, it was, was in talking to other women who had been through it. And I think, you know, I, when you envision how you start a family, you never envision there to be challenges like this, miscarriages, fertility treatment, all of that. And so, because it was just such a new concept that you kind of have to orient yourself around, it's helpful to hear from other people who had

been through it and can kind of help shed light on the experience and make you feel like, okay, this is actually a moment of strength and not a weakness. It's not a moment of weakness that we are now having to resort to fertility treatment and we can't get pregnant the natural way, which I hate that concept of natural versus medicated. Yeah, it's all natural, right? And that was what

Michelle (22:24)

it's all natural. It's a baby. Yeah.

Samantha Bonizzi (22:29)

I told myself in the end, I don't care the path that we get there anymore, I just want the baby in our arms. And so whatever it takes to get there, I will do it. And that helped me, I think come to terms with IVF as well, is that it's the destination that matters, not the journey.

Michelle (22:36)

Yeah.

I love that. actually really love that you're saying that because it's true. It's almost like that. As soon as you surrender the how it seems to make things a lot easier, then you're just like, okay, and then because you you're moving with the flow of the how, rather than resisting it at every point, because that resistance is only going to cause more stress.

Samantha Bonizzi (22:51)

No.

Yes.

It does.

Yes, exactly. And I think that was a big part of it. When I was going through the testing and everything, it was like, I was trying to gain so much control over every little aspect. I mean, and not even just with doctors, but in, you know, the lifestyle changes that I was making and putting effort into my diet and the supplements and the environment, all those things that you hear about that are supposed to help the fertility and

I think there's definitely some merit to it, but at the same time, it gets exhausting. Just having to, you want to think that you have, yeah, and you want to think you have some semblance of control over the situation, in which for me, it was very much a coping mechanism, because I felt such at a loss with everything, that I was like, okay, if I do these things and I control these things, at least I can, you know, feel like I'm doing something and I'm making, and I'm getting momentum towards, you know, the end goal here.

Michelle (23:46)

It's a lot. It's a lot of pressure.

Yeah.

Samantha Bonizzi (24:08)

But I think I became very burnt out by it all. so I think the other appealing thing with IVF was like, can kind of surrender to the process and trust the doctors and just choose this as my path forward. And there was some comfort in that.

Michelle (24:26)

Yeah, because it's almost like a plan is in place and you're just like following this plan and then you have a direction to go in.

Samantha Bonizzi (24:32)

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Michelle (24:35)

And what are other coping skills that you found doing this? Because I know obviously community is tremendous. I know that that is really because we really need people. We're such social beings. We need people. We need to hear that we're not alone. We're not the only ones thinking certain thoughts or feeling certain feelings. So having that community it eases the load, that kind of personal load.

But what are other things that you've done that you feel have helped you in the process just for people listening?

Samantha Bonizzi (25:06)

I think therapy was a big one and finding the right therapist who, for me at least, who understood what I was going through and kind of had a more specialized focus in everything maternal health. I had dabbled in therapy before and I was seeing a therapist when I first got pregnant, but I decided to switch after the miscarriage and find somebody who

Michelle (25:21)

Mm-hmm.

Samantha Bonizzi (25:36)

like I said, was specialized. And, you know, I felt like could get me through the specific situation that I was going through. And I think that was really important for my healing journey, was having that regular touch point of therapy, of talk therapy, and just having an outlet to get everything out and work through whatever it was that I needed to work through.

you know, it's something where you have your friends and family and your partner, but you at the same time might feel like a, at least for me, I felt like a burden a lot of the time, like not really wanting to put that on everyone else around me. So having that like consistent therapy appointment was just always a good outlet for me to kind of sort through the ins and outs of what I was going through. So I think therapy was a big one. And then just like,

generally self-care, whatever was going to get me through, whether it was like making that massage appointment or whether it was related to fertility or not. think just having, getting out for the walk with the good podcast and like prioritizing that, like there was no limits to my self-care time, I think during that window.

Michelle (26:42)

Mm-hmm.

Samantha Bonizzi (27:00)

you know, whatever I could do to make myself feel better in the short term or the long term was what I was doing.

Michelle (27:06)

That's so important because it's kind of like a self-soothing. I think that that is a really good skill to have, to find ways to make yourself feel better. Sometimes that gets neglected. It's not something that we're actually raised to think about. Oftentimes it's actually quite the opposite. We feel guilty about it. We're like, you know, what are you doing sitting around? You're not doing anything. So you feel almost guilty about it. And it's a conditioning because it's really something that is so important really for

Samantha Bonizzi (27:10)

Yeah.

Michelle (27:35)

our bodies, for our nervous systems. I often talk about nervous system because it's so important for fertility health, but it's also important for your emotional state as well. And I also love that you brought up therapy, but specifically with somebody who is specialized in your specific needs, which there are out there just for people listening.

And you can find people who are very specifically specialized in this field and understand the process. They understand the grieving process and how, you know, there's patterns to every type of emotion. So I think it's really important. Yeah, for sure. And I think also you'll talk to somebody who understands you specifically and what you're going through.

Samantha Bonizzi (28:12)

Yep. Yeah. So important. Yeah.

Yes, yes. And it's that and even now it's all connected. Like she, my therapist understands my journey and what got me to this pregnancy and now helping me through this pregnancy and all the other anxieties and fears that I now feel being pregnant after pregnancy loss. There's a lot of nuance to that. having her as part of...

Michelle (28:42)

Mm-hmm.

Samantha Bonizzi (28:49)

the lead up and into kind where I am now has been really helpful. And even as I enter into postpartum, you know, I think everything around motherhood, it's all there's, and I don't, I'm almost, I'm about to embark on motherhood. So there's a lot to learn, but there's, you know, there's a lot of fear and anxiety. The worrying never stops. So I'm so grateful that I found the right person.

Michelle (29:03)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, that's true. mean, your emotions and everything that you're going through, doesn't just stop when you get to the place that you're looking to get to, you know? So there's always something and it is really important to address because it will come up sometimes and it legitimately is PTSD. mean, so you're going through something and then you were saying about going back to the doctor's office. Yes, because it's like the sensations, the lights, the visuals, all of the things.

Samantha Bonizzi (29:23)

Yeah.

Michelle (29:41)

those are all reminding us of the last time we were there and all the things that we went through in that time. So it's really important to at least even acknowledge that and know that those things can come up and that they're normal. Like it happens really, can't even think of one patient that has not gone through that, that I've worked with.

Samantha Bonizzi (29:42)

Yeah.

Yeah, and that's been the challenge is sort of having to like relive your past traumas. You know, when it comes to pregnancy after loss, you have to do the things that are hard that remind you of the bad times. You know, like you said, going into those ultrasound appointments and dealing with being in the same room you were in when you found out about your pregnancy loss and how to get through that. And

therapy did really help me with that, kind of being able to ground yourself in reality and like, what do I know is true right now? And I think the fact of keeping, you know, reminding myself that this is a different pregnancy with a different outcome with a different story was really important and a concept I kind of picked up from therapy and also support groups and things like that. So

There are all these coping mechanisms at the end of the day. It's still hard, you kind of, there's no way to go but through yeah, it's so true. And so, you know, in order to get there, I had to get pregnant again, had to go through the first trimester, had to get through the ultrasounds in order to get to where I am now. So.

Michelle (31:01)

Yeah.

I love that thing. It's true.

Mm-hmm

Samantha, you are so articulate. You're really good with your words. You're really good at describing your experience I could feel the emotion in your voice, even when you're explaining it, like really, like you really walk us through that exact experience very well. Like you could really, really feel it. So first of all, I think it's just, takes a lot of courage to express things or to speak about things that are so personal.

Samantha Bonizzi (31:21)

Thank you.

Thank you.

Michelle (31:45)

And I know that you're doing this really for the benefit of people listening. So for that, I really want to commend you. think it's just beautiful. And that's kind of like the beauty of life is when you're able to take something that is so hard and so personal and know that you kind of like, it's like alchemy, know, something that can be so painful could serve a purpose for somebody else hearing it.

And then just to also share in that, I guess, that human So thank you so much for sharing that. And for people who want to read this book, how can they find it? How can they find you?

Samantha Bonizzi (32:21)

Yeah, absolutely. So we are available. The book is available on Amazon or really wherever you purchase your books. And we've been out for about two weeks. So it's fairly new out in the market, but we're excited about it and hope you'll, whether you're someone going through it or you know somebody going through it. Like I said, there's a story in there for everybody. So we hope it touches you in some way.

I'm the best place to find me is Instagram. So I'm at Sam dot Benizzi. And yeah, I'm public on there, but send me a DM. I'd love to connect.

Michelle (33:03)

Awesome. I'll have all the links in the podcast episode notes. So if anybody wants to go in there, you'll find the website and the Instagram and Samantha, you're just such a doll. Like I always liked you from the beginning when he first came in. You just have such a good energy about you. And I just, I really, yeah, I loved, I love having you on here and having this conversation with you. And then just the fact that you co-authored a book is just amazing.

Samantha Bonizzi (33:14)

Yeah.

Thank you. Likewise.

Thank you so much for having me and giving me a platform to continue to share. it's been great to connect with you. Like I said, was one time, but you really left a mark. So I'm glad we can kind of stay in contact about it as well.

Michelle (33:47)

Awesome. Well, thank you so much.

Samantha Bonizzi (33:49)

Thank you.

EP 315 What to Focus on if You’re Trying to Conceive After 40 | Dr. Marc Sklar

In this episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I sit down with Dr. Marc Sklar to delve into evolving perspectives on fertility, especially for women over 40. We discuss the need to shift our focus from quantity to quality in fertility treatments, and the empowering impact this has on women navigating their fertility journeys. We cover the realities of IVF, the importance of patience, self-advocacy, and creating space for personal growth and healing. Marc and I also explore complex factors such as genetics, autoimmune issues, and male-related factors in recurrent pregnancy loss. This conversation is full of valuable insights for anyone on their fertility journey, promoting a holistic approach to healing and growth.

Takeaways

• A shift in mindset is crucial for couples seeking fertility care after 40.

• Quality of eggs and embryos becomes more important than quantity as women age.

• Understanding hormones is important, but shouldn't be the sole focus.

• Regular ovulation is a key indicator of fertility, regardless of age.

• Real-life success stories provide hope and perspective for those trying to conceive.

• Patients should feel empowered to advocate for themselves in medical settings.

• IVF is not a guaranteed solution and should not be the first option considered.

• Donor eggs can be a valuable option, but should not be the first recommendation based solely on age.

• The energetics of fertility are crucial for healing.

• Recurrent pregnancy loss can stem from various factors, including genetics and autoimmune issues.

• Male factors contribute to 50% of miscarriages, often overlooked.

• The importance of the uterine environment in fertility cannot be ignored.

• Quick fixes are a societal conditioning that impacts health decisions.

• Understanding the microbiome can enhance fertility treatments.

• Emotional states can significantly affect physical health and fertility.

Be sure to check out our Fertility Empowerment Holiday Bundle here https://www.michelleoravitz.com/fertilityempowermentbundle before it’s gone!

Guest Bio:

Dr. Marc Sklar — a.k.a The Fertility Expert — is a natural fertility specialist helping couples get pregnant for 21 years. He’s mission is to help you feel HOPEFUL and CONFIDENT about your fertility journey again. 

In addition to his Doctor of Acupuncture and Oriental Medicine, Dr. Sklar trained at the Harvard Medical School, Mind/Body Medical Institute. He is the creator of Fertility TV, MarcSklar.com and ReproductiveWellness.com, and a Fellow of the American Board of Oriental Reproductive Medicine and Medical Advisor for Symphony Natural Health.

As well as his online program, he also supports his community via his highly popular YouTube channel: FertilityTV where he shares information packed videos to educate his followers on all things fertility. 

The Fertility Expert lives in San Diego, with his wife and two sons, where he has his clinic Reproductive Wellness. He also works with couples all over the world through his fertility online coaching - the Hope Fertility Program.

FERTILITY TV WEEKLY EPISODE - http://bit.ly/thefertilityexpert

FACEBOOK - https://www.facebook.com/thefertilityexpert

INSTAGRAM - https://www.instagram.com/the_fertility_expert/

For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Be sure to check out our Fertility Empowerment Holiday Bundle here https://www.michelleoravitz.com/fertilityempowermentbundle before it’s gone!

Click here to get free access to the first chapter in The Way of Fertility Book! https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

Transcript:

Michelle (00:00)

Welcome back to the podcast, Dr. Scalari.

Marc Sklar (00:03)

Welcome, well, thank you for having me. It's automatic. But no, it's awesome to reconnect. It's been a while and I'm excited to have a conversation that we both are passionate about, which is everything fertility.

Michelle (00:07)

I know it's automatic. Yes.

For sure. We're like, you could say we're a little obsessed, right? With fertility. It's like, live it, we breathe it, So awesome. actually today we're going to talk about a couple of different topics, but I wanted to talk to you about pregnancy after 40. Cause I know that a lot of what we hear out there, even about,

Marc Sklar (00:25)

100%. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Michelle (00:46)

how even after 35, it's considered a geriatric pregnancy, which I don't know about you. just don't love that term at all. It's icky. yeah, because I'm sure you see most people like closer to the age of 40 and doing really well. So I'd love for you to talk about it, your experience with that, and also some really cool examples of how it can work despite all of the naysayers.

Marc Sklar (00:55)

Yeah, not a fan of it.

Mm-hmm

Yeah, so I think, I so many things I want to talk about when you say this that I need to prioritize it in a good way. here's a couple of things that I think are really important. One is, I think our perspective about fertility, and when I say our, not ours as practitioners and doctors and providers, but more like ours as in like,

the couple who is seeking care during this time and wanting to get pregnant in their 40s, I think a mind shift has to happen. And I think that they need to think about their fertility in a slightly different way. If we are thinking about our fertility and reading everything that is really focused on

couples that are 30 or 35 or whatever age in their 30s, then we're going to be skewed differently about our own fertility and our approach needs to be different. And so I say that in the sense that, you know, we have to have a different reality of what is okay and what we're trying to achieve. A woman who's in her 30s is trying to get as many eggs as possible.

Michelle (02:43)

Mm-hmm.

Marc Sklar (02:43)

So they have as many options when they have their embryos created and they are, you know, it's usually more about in general and this is a making a generalization, but it's more about quantity versus quality. We're like, let's have as many as we have so that we can choose the best quality of those and then we can move forward, you know, with our pregnancy. And...

the approach may or may not be in those situations about egg quality, because there might be other variables that are impacting their ability to conceive. Whereas I think when we are 40 and older, my approach really shifts. I don't care about quantity. I'm really, really focused on quality. And I think that mindset has to be different as a couple.

because then we were not as disappointed like, I didn't get that many follicles and they didn't retrieve as many eggs as I would have hoped. But because that's all we hear about. We hear about, look, we need all these eggs, we need all these embryos. But the reality is, is when we get older, I don't need 20 eggs or 20 embryos, I need a couple good ones. That's really what I'm looking for is a couple good embryos.

to work with and to transfer. So I think really a mind shift needs to happen and our perspective on fertility needs to change. And so for reading and understanding things as if we were 30 versus 40 or older, then we're gonna have, I believe, skewed perspective on our fertility journey. So that to me is number one. Number two is we do all get caught up in our hormones and some of that is appropriate and some of that is not appropriate.

Is it appropriate to understand where our hormones are at when we're at any age? 100%. Is it important to understand what our estrogen is doing and what our progesterone and FSH are doing? Absolutely. Is it important to know what our AMH is? Yes. Should we get caught up in AMH and make our whole focus about AMH? No.

The research doesn't promote, doesn't support these variables. Even FSH, AMH are not good indicators for a couple's ability to conceive and have a healthy pregnancy. Are they important for us to just have a baseline and understand? Yes. Will they potentially or can they potentially influence your IVF protocol? Yes.

But that doesn't mean we as couples need to get wrapped up in those numbers and make our fertility all about that because it shouldn't be. My rule of thumb is are you having a regular cycle? Check. Are you ovulating regularly? Check. Is your bleed healthy? Check. You can conceive.

Michelle (05:40)

Mm-hmm.

Marc Sklar (06:00)

Do we have to look at these other variables? Do we need to check your thyroid? Do we need to work on your adrenal glands and stress? Do we need to make sure your gut is healthy? Do we need to make sure all the systems are functioning properly? Seem analysis is good. Fallopian tubes are open. All of those things are still important. But the main thing that as long as you're ovulating, you can get.

And I think that's a really important piece. Now, we're not talking about IVF or not IVF right now. It's just like conception at 40, right? And or older. And so I think if we just focus on the right things and don't get bogged down by these little details of someone who might approach things a little differently if they were 30, then our approach will be better. It will be healthier.

Michelle (06:37)

Mm-hmm.

Marc Sklar (06:57)

you'll be more grounded in your approach. And we could focus on the areas that really need attention and support. And so I think that piece is really important as we are in our 40s, approaching fertility, still wanting to conceive. If we're always comparing ourselves to other women and other circumstances, we're gonna lose sight of what we need to do and always be trying to like catch up or do what they're doing. And I think that is...

That can really push us down the wrong road. I say this because truly I work with so many women who are over 40. And I see this time and time again. So it's coming from a lot of experience working with women over 40. And I have a wonderful story to share of a woman who is, and everyone will gasp when they hear, okay, when she conceived she was 48.

Michelle (07:55)

That's awesome. I love that.

Marc Sklar (07:55)

She is, I just spoke to her two days ago. When she delivers, she will be 49. Okay? And I'm not saying she didn't have a long journey.

Michelle (08:08)

Was this natural or was it IVF?

Marc Sklar (08:11)

This time was natural, but I'm not saying she didn't have a long journey. She did. I'm not saying it was easy. It was not. It was a long journey. It was difficult. Miscarriages, conceiving naturally, conceiving through IVF, long IVF protocols, multiple clinics, like all these things. So it wasn't easy. It was long, but she's 32 weeks pregnant right now.

Michelle (08:40)

Wow, amazing.

Marc Sklar (08:41)

And I say that because it's possible. It can happen. And these are the sorts of things we see on a regular basis. I'm not saying it's easy at 48, not at all. But I say that for some perspective on the process. Okay. And I think that, you know, do I think everyone could last for seven plus years trying? No, I don't think that's for everybody. She was never going to give up.

Michelle (08:51)

Mm-hmm.

Marc Sklar (09:11)

Like regardless, like she was never going to stop and never give up until she was pregnant. And that's what she told me. She's like, I'm not going to stop and I'm determined. I was like, okay, I'll support you. Right. That, that, that process is not for everybody. Some people will be on it for a year or just have one or two IVF transfers. And they're like, this is too much. I'm done. I'm going to move on. And I respect everybody's path in that process, but

Michelle (09:21)

Wow, amazing. Yeah.

Right.

Marc Sklar (09:39)

I want everyone to know it's possible and that's why I share that story. I think it's possible regardless of age with the right support and the right process and the right focus of our attention.

Michelle (09:51)

I love that. I really do. And I love the stories because I think that there's so many people that can benefit and you have that sign hope in the background. And it's true. Like those are, but stories, real life stories, there's nothing like real life stories to provide real hope. Cause you can hear, you know, there's a chance of this or a chance of that. But when you actually see an example of somebody going through those challenges that you are and having a successful pregnancy,

Marc Sklar (10:00)

Yeah.

Michelle (10:21)

I think that there's nothing that compares to that.

Marc Sklar (10:24)

Yeah, absolutely. And I love to bring in stories wherever possible. And she was just at top of mind because I just booked her two days ago. So yeah.

Michelle (10:33)

That's awesome. You know what I find really cool is the Guinness Book of World Records, the oldest pregnancy is 58 and it was natural. And it was a woman in England who, you know, in England, they don't have a lot of sunlight and, know, and vitamin D access naturally. So I thought that was really cool. But it's, it could be done. It's possible. Just like you said, and I love that you said

Marc Sklar (10:45)

Wow. No.

Michelle (10:58)

as long as you're ovulating, there is a possibility that you can get pregnant.

Marc Sklar (11:02)

Yeah, yeah, we see this, we do see this all the time. Look, as soon as you hit 35 and 38 and certainly 40 and older, you're going to read things and hear things that say, you can't, it's not possible, you won't, you need donor, you need IVF, whatever it is that you're gonna hear, you're gonna hear it all.

I think the hardest time is when you hear it from the person on the other side of the desk in a white coat that says to you, your only option is donor, just give up. And we all hear variations of those words, whether it's not possible, just use donor, whatever variation of that, of what I just said, when you go into an office, whether that's your OB,

Michelle (11:46)

True.

Marc Sklar (12:01)

or your REI or whoever it might be, and you're sitting down talking to them and they see your age, they assume certain things and they make certain judgments. And they express those verbally to you. And you hear that and that registers in your brain that embeds into your brain. And you start to believe it. Well, yeah, right.

Michelle (12:22)

It's nocebo.

True.

Marc Sklar (12:28)

I've never heard it, say it. really like that phrase. Yeah.

Michelle (12:31)

You're never going to be able to get it out of your head now. Every time a woman comes in and tells you the story.

Marc Sklar (12:36)

Yeah. And so look, they said this to you, it and our our brains are really strong and we imprint with these negative things very easily. It's much harder to imprint with all the positive, it takes more effort. And so it imprints into our brain. And now we start to believe it. Well, Dr. So and so said, it's not possible, I'm not going to do it, I can't. And then we repeat that to ourselves so often that

Michelle (12:49)

Right. It's true.

Marc Sklar (13:05)

Now our body and our brains believe that to be true. so if someone says something negative to you, you have to work double or triple as hard on yourself to get that out. And you need to express to them, I didn't come here to hear negativity. I didn't come here for you to tell me that I can't. I'm determined to get pregnant.

Michelle (13:09)

100%.

Marc Sklar (13:33)

And it's fine if you're not able or willing to help me, I'll go someplace else, but I don't need you to tell me that I can't do it, because I know that I can. And you have to do it in that moment. You have to say that in that moment to them, because what you're saying to them is repeating it back to yourself to retrain yourself and get rid very quickly, get rid of that negative comment so it doesn't embed into your brain, into your conscious.

Michelle (13:52)

Yeah.

Marc Sklar (14:00)

But it also allows them, they need to be woken up. One, they need to be told this is not okay. And two, you have to have the power and the strength to verbalize that truth to them. Okay. You might not be getting pregnant in the conventional way that you thought or they thought. You might not get pregnant in the way that they would like you to. It doesn't mean that you cannot get pregnant. It means that it might take longer. It might be a different path. It might be...

whatever. And so I think it's really important in those moments to stand up for yourself and verbalize that and let them know they might not like it. It's okay. Yeah, you didn't like what they said to you. So it's fine.

Michelle (14:41)

Yeah, exactly.

Totally, totally. And that's like really taking your power back regardless, ultimately it's your journey. You're not there to make the doctor feel better.

Marc Sklar (14:53)

Right, listen, I think that's such an important piece. Unlike most other medical visits and specialties, you are a consumer buying their service. Just because they're wearing a white coat and they have MD after their name does not mean

that they get the say in everything. It's your journey, it's your process. You're paying them a lot of money for their service. And even if you have insurance coverage, by the way, it's still insurance coverage that can go someplace else to pay for somebody else. So it doesn't have to go to them. And so...

You have the power, like they make it feel like they have the power and they control the situation. I want you to know you have the power. You control the situation and your outcome. It's your dollars that you're spending. You are and should be an equal participant in this process with them. And they don't have to dictate everything. Now, I'm not saying, you you're telling them the protocols to use all the time, but

It needs to be a joint effort in this process. It's totally different than going into a different medical environment and a different provider for different services. They're not charging you $20,000, those other people, for a service that's elective. So stand up for yourself. Have that empowerment to do so.

Michelle (16:34)

Yeah.

Right.

Yeah. And another point that I want to make is, you know, when you're working with a doctor, it doesn't matter how qualified, like, I feel like they should believe in your outcome. If they're doubting your outcome, find another person.

Marc Sklar (16:57)

Yeah, right now, 100%, 100%. Look, I am not opposed to donor egg. I think that donor egg is something that is super valuable and has its place. What I don't like is that just because of your age, someone is telling you, need to use donor egg. What they're really saying,

And there is certainly a place for donor egg. have lots of women that I work with that use donor egg very successfully and I'm a big proponent of it. But what, why they are telling you just based on your age to use donor egg is because their success rates are impacted by your age and the challenge, the potential challenge of getting pregnant at your age.

Michelle (17:51)

Right.

Marc Sklar (17:55)

And so for them and their success rates, they have higher chances with using donor egg and they would just prefer, it's an easier process, they would prefer that you use donor egg for that purpose. Okay, now again, does it mean that it's not the right decision for some? It just means that I think if they're just making that decision based on age, I think there's a lot of other pieces that need to be looked at before that decision is made.

Michelle (18:24)

What you just said is so important because it's the reality. Really if the system, it's the reality because their ability to really stay on top of their game is for their statistics to make them look really good. And it's human nature. They're going to be thinking about that when they're talking to you, regardless if they're, you know, they can be great doctors, the two can coexist, but

They're also in a business. So it's important to keep that in mind in the realistic aspect of it is that it's going to make them look better. They don't want to take a risk. They see it as a risk, but that doesn't mean that just because they see it that way, that that's really the case for you.

Marc Sklar (18:54)

100%.

Right, yeah. Look, absolutely. I say this also from, so everyone knows who's listening, 50 % of the couples that I work with, 50 % of them are doing IVF. I could group IUI into that as well, so IUI or IVF, some form of assistive technique. Of that number, about 15%, use donor egg.

Michelle (19:33)

Mm-hmm.

Marc Sklar (19:34)

So I'm fine with it. I'm happy to support you with it. I just often think that choice is made prematurely or that push in that direction is done prematurely without really giving you a fair chance, really looking at your case as a whole versus just looking at you as an age, as a number.

Michelle (19:56)

Same thing with IVF. I also find that with IVF that people will start out maybe three months and they're young and they're like, you know, I just want a baby now. So I'm going to go to IVF. And a lot of people have a preconceived notion just because you're paying a huge amount of money and that there's technology involved that doesn't give a guarantee. in fact, I've seen people get more successful naturally, even at an older age than going through IVF.

Marc Sklar (20:05)

Easy.

Well, the success rates for IVF for those who are listening and aren't aware are relatively low. You know, in your, from 30 to 35, those success rates are around 35 to 40 % ish. You know, depending on the clinic, some clinics might have a little higher, some a little bit lower, but roughly, you know, in the United States, that's an accurate statistic. It only goes down as you get older. And if you look, because most clinics,

Michelle (20:50)

you

Marc Sklar (20:56)

Don't have to report, but most clinics do report their statistics. If you look at statistics for IVF in their 40s without donor egg, those statistics are very, very low. So then you have to ask yourself, is this worth the money or can I get the same or better statistics and results trying naturally by addressing the root issues, by focusing on the things that I need to focus on, by getting healthy.

are those better for me? Are those odds better? One of the beautiful things you mentioned it with, you work with younger women and after three months they move forward with IVF. One of the beautiful things that's happened over the last 20 years is that fertility treatments and the fertility journey has become something that is more accepted and people are more willing to talk about it. And as a result of that,

marketing towards those communities has increased dramatically. And as a result, IBF has been spoken about more frequently because of that marketing. And so it's become so much more commonplace that couples who want to get pregnant, young, try for three months or six months, hey, it's not working.

you know, so and so did IVF and got pregnant or so, you know, we should just go do IVF. And they don't know the real statistics. They believe that it's a hundred percent successful. And as a result, it becomes the first line of treatment versus, you know, what used to be the third or fourth or fifth line of treatment, right? Well, I used to go to my OB and they used to do that. And then I would try other things. Now it's like, I'm not pregnant. Let's just go do IVF. Right. And so so many couples end up doing IVF.

thinking it's faster or more convenient without really working on themselves. And in turn, then they realized later on, I really shouldn't have started this way because it's not a guarantee. I haven't been successful. So they go there very prematurely. My preference would be is to see couples have patience. Take a step back. What's not working for me?

Michelle (23:03)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Marc Sklar (23:17)

What do I need to improve and correct? And let's work on the root issues so that way you can be successful moving forward. And I had a conversation two weeks ago with a woman. I talked about it briefly this week on my Instagram stories because I think we were both frustrated with each other during this conversation. She has a history of repeated chemical pregnancies.

And she is frustrated with the lack of results and I've just started working with her. And so I asked her, know, she, and as we just started working together, she had another chemical and I asked her to stop trying for a little bit. I'm like, you're just having these ongoing chemicals and we're really not able to make progress. I just wrote out this plan for you. I want to give it some opportunity. You know, it's the end of the, it's close to the end of the year.

How about we just take off right now through the end of the year? Let's just take a break. Let's enjoy life and let's work on ourselves. And she felt like she was wasting time and she was feeling, I could feel her as soon as I said it, like getting anxious about like just the time of giving, creating this time to, and she's in her early forties. And she said, you know, I don't think I'm gonna do that. I can't do that. I'm gonna.

Michelle (24:19)

Mm-hmm.

Marc Sklar (24:44)

I'm going to keep trying because I feel like I'm wasting time. We had this back and forth, this long conversation back and forth. I'm going to totally support her and respect her decision about how she wants to move forward. I just don't agree. Sometimes taking a step back and working on ourselves and creating space is progress towards our ultimate goal. I know that we think that if we're not actively having intercourse and trying to conceive at ovulation every month, that we're wasting time.

Michelle (24:57)

Yeah.

yeah.

Marc Sklar (25:15)

Well, in a situation like this, we're just spinning our wheels. If all we do is continue to do the same thing every month, expecting a different result, I don't know how that's gonna change. So we need to give ourselves a little bit of opportunity. And she's so worked up about it and anxious about it, she's trying to control every aspect and she's scared. She's making this decision out of fear.

Michelle (25:19)

Totally.

Mm-hmm.

Marc Sklar (25:43)

So one, the decision's being made out of fear, and two, she's trying to strangle, like, I'm gonna control all of this. It's not, we are typically not successful if we make decisions out of fear, number one, okay? And number two, the more we try to strangle something, the more you strangle it and you don't allow it to be successful.

We need to create some space, some room for things to occur. Okay? And I'm a big proponent of this, like, let's just take a step back. Let's take a deep breath. Let's understand, let's give ourselves some space and not have to be so stressed about this. Most things, if you think about it, are created in space, in a little bit of a vacuum. Sorry, not a vacuum, in a little bit of a space. If we have this vacuum, we're constantly trying to control it. There's no space for creation.

Michelle (26:19)

Yep. Yeah.

Marc Sklar (26:39)

There's no place for an opportunity for something to be created in. So I think it's, know, painting a beautiful painting is created from a blank canvas. It's created from space. And the same thing with our life. We need to create an opportunity for life to be created. And so that means not straining, not holding on so tight, not trying to control every little thing.

Michelle (26:52)

Mm-hmm. Yep.

Marc Sklar (27:08)

Let's take a step back. I'm not saying you don't like do the right things. I'm saying we don't try to control all of those things so closely. And I think this is really such an important lesson for all of us because our tendency when we're told is I'm gonna do it differently. I'm gonna add this in like, right? And you're just like more and more and more more and more. So that's like this stranglehold that happens.

Michelle (27:29)

Mm-hmm.

Marc Sklar (27:35)

And I want us all to just let go a little bit more. It doesn't mean you're giving up. It doesn't mean you're taking a break. It doesn't have to be. It means you're just not holding on so tight to the outcome and the process. And I think this is so, so valuable for us. Difficult to do. I'm not saying it's easy, but it's so valuable. you know, I know her and I, were both...

kind of frustrated by the conversation because it didn't feel like she was listening to me and she didn't feel like she wanted to move on with my recommendations. She felt frustrated by me asking her to take a break. But I say it out of all love, like that is what I feel like is going to be the most beneficial for her in that situation. And I've had these conversations with others in the past and I'm just saying this from experience. So for all of you listening, sometimes we just gotta let go a little bit.

We've got to just ease up just a little bit.

Michelle (28:31)

love this.

Yeah, no, I love this so much. you have no idea. Cause it, think that like you just said, you've had so much experience, you've seen this. And when you do something over and over again for many years, what happens is you start to get a feeling for it. You know, my husband works in the ER. He's starting to have a feel. He gets a sense when somebody's really sick or somebody saying they're sick, you start to get a sixth sense. You know, maybe we can't measure that, but it's a real thing. And I love that you talk about that. Cause to me that's

Marc Sklar (28:37)

Yeah.

Michelle (29:04)

being in a state of flow, being in a state of flow is the same exact thing that happens in our body when our chi flows and our vitality is able to feed all of our organs. cannot happen when it's constricted. And then going inward. Yeah, that's just going into the yin. You can't be constantly yang. You have to go back into the yin as well. And yin is incredibly productive.

Marc Sklar (29:25)

Yeah.

Michelle (29:28)

Like what happens when we're sleeping? We're in a state of yin. It's the most productive thing your body can do. You can't possibly have so much going on without that kind of like inert state. know, so it's, yeah, it's totally important, but also I don't know if you ever follow Dr. Joe Dispenza. I'm obsessed with his teachings. And have you ever done his meditations? So his meditations, he actually takes you through a form of induction, which

Marc Sklar (29:48)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

No.

Michelle (29:58)

It's not hypnosis, but he gets you into a state of space, of becoming aware of space. Because when you become aware of space and everything that he does is based on science. actually has a whole research team on this. And this idea of kind of allowing this state of space, as they learn in quantum physics, you know, getting to this place where we're not locked in to the material world. We're not locked in.

We're kind of like moving back so we can allow this divine intelligence to take over. And then, and then it fixes things. It takes care of your body. does what it needs to do. Cause that's not our job. Our job is yet to direct and to intend, but our job is not to fix every single thing. When we try to do that, all we're doing is getting in the way of this divine intelligence. So I love that you're saying this because it totally like, it totally speaks the language that I'm feeling when it comes to.

fertility health and overall health like every way really.

Marc Sklar (31:00)

Yeah, I agree. it's something I talk about. I have to do it, I feel like, repeatedly to the same person to get them to hear the message. And it's not intuitive. Like, personality-wise and for many of us, our goal is like, just want to fix it. I want to solve it. I want to do it. That creates this stranglehold. And so it's not intuitive for them to kind

Michelle (31:08)

Yeah, because it's not common knowledge. It's not common.

Mm-hmm.

Marc Sklar (31:30)

pull back a little bit and feel like that's moving forward. But it is.

Michelle (31:34)

Yeah. Yeah, totally. Cause I mean, we have, we're conditioned to, you know, to first of all, get quick fixes. I mean, this is, we've been conditioned for years and this is all marketing for quick fixes, like quicker, faster, better, you know, and we also are conditioned to no pain, no gain. You know, you have to work for it. You have to get it. You have to be on top and

Marc Sklar (31:46)

Mm-hmm.

Michelle (31:59)

So over time, this is just a habit. That's going to be our knee jerk reaction or response to pretty much anything, but it's not necessarily the response your body needs.

Marc Sklar (32:10)

Yeah, no, absolutely. And it's actually with the younger generation, that's only getting worse. Maybe not the no pain, no gain part, but the quick fix. That's our generation. Yeah. The younger generation is like, I don't want any pain, but I want all the gain. Yeah. And the quick fix, you know, part of it is because of the phone.

Michelle (32:20)

Yeah, that might be more our generation. This is true. It's true. Yeah. I just want to be on my phone.

Dopamine.

Marc Sklar (32:39)

the dopamine, but also like this, as much as Amazon has been a great service to so many people, it's a huge disservice. We, and especially the younger generation, expect everything now in a day. Right? That's the quick fix. That's like immediate gratification. Free delivery, two days. Now everyone expects free delivery and they want it there in two days. And it doesn't work like,

Michelle (32:55)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Marc Sklar (33:09)

The world doesn't typically work that way, but they've preconditioned us to this. And that's to our detriment, right? Because that gets translated across the board to all aspects of our life. Now we want things faster. We more immediate gratification. it should have been fixed. Why didn't they get back to me, right? Like all of these things, I think that's a problem. Yeah.

Michelle (33:32)

I'm like, we're on the same page. 100%. Yeah. And I think that, yeah, it just, these are mental patterns that we're constantly repeating. And I'll be honest. I mean, ever since I had my phone, I just don't feel as sharp. I don't remember as much. My attention can't stay on one thing. And even me, I'm aware of this and it's impacting me.

Marc Sklar (33:41)

Mm-hmm.

Right, yeah, yeah, yeah. One of my favorite things to do both to bother my children and because it's beneficial to them is if we need to order something from Amazon, I put it on the longest shipping option as possible. Like if it says one week or two weeks, that's what I pick. Every time. I mean, unless I like immediately need something, whatever. But like.

Michelle (34:08)

that's smart.

That's actually really smart.

You need it. You'll use it when you need it.

Marc Sklar (34:18)

Yeah, but like in general, I use the longer shipping option because I'm trying to retrain their minds to be like, it's not here yet. Okay, we'll come. It's not, it's not the end of the world, right? It will arrive. and usually Amazon gives you a little benefit for that delay, by the way. Yeah.

Michelle (34:36)

Yeah, yeah, yeah, right. It's a little cheaper. That's really smart. That is actually really, really smart. And then you can put things in one box. So it also is good for the environment. So when it comes to recurrent pregnancy loss, because you'd mentioned you're talking about chemical pregnancies and what are some of the common factors that you've seen clinically?

Marc Sklar (34:46)

Yeah, and good for the environment.

Yeah.

Yeah, so chemical pregnancy could be a little bit different, but if we're talking about, you know, reoccurring pregnancy laws or, you know, multiple miscarriages, then the, there are four buckets that I put things into. The first bucket is one we have to look at and analyze, but one we potentially can't do much about, which is genetics, right? Is there some sort of genetic abnormality that's occurring potentially?

Michelle (35:24)

Mm-hmm.

Marc Sklar (35:30)

due to my genetics or the combination of mine with my partners and what's that going on. I might end up with five causes actually now that I think about it. The next one is autoimmune issues. I find this is a huge reason for reoccurring pregnancy loss. will say also I find this is a big reason for secondary fertility issues.

Michelle (35:41)

Hey, good.

Marc Sklar (35:59)

with recurrent pregnancy loss. So secondary meaning you've been successful with the pregnancy one time or multiple times, and then at some point you're trying again and you're not successful, but in this case you've had, let's just say a loss. And so I would say I find that autoimmune issues are much more common in that situation because something happened in one of the previous pregnancies or postpartum that caused some sort of autoimmune issue that has triggered this outcome or contributed to this outcome.

Michelle (36:26)

Mm-hmm.

Marc Sklar (36:28)

Another one is blood clotting factors, that there is some sort of, you know, some issue, whether that's genetic or not, because it doesn't have to be genetic, that is contributing to more clotting factors that doesn't allow for that embryo to implant properly, and you could have a miscarriage. So that's three. Four, uterine issues.

That could be wide, that could be like a bigger bubble that doesn't get talked about as frequently. So what's going on in implantation that might be contributing to that? Is there an infection, a virus, a bacteria? Is there inflammation? Is there endometriosis? What is going on inside the uterine cavity and with the endometrium that could be causing this pregnancy or multiple pregnancies to not be able to be held?

And then the last one, which is male factor. So 50 % of all miscarriages are male factor related. Most typically in those, it's going to be some sort of DNA fragmentation issue. So the DNA of the sperm has been compromised in some way and that's contributing to that loss. That's the one that unfortunately we don't talk about as much because, like why would a male...

Michelle (37:43)

Mm-hmm.

Marc Sklar (37:57)

contribute to the miscarriage, you know, and they're not carrying. So that one gets ignored, but something that needs to be ruled out. So those are the, I said four, but really five, those are the five reasons that, you we should look at.

Michelle (38:10)

Yeah, for sure. And also the microbiome, know vaginal microbiome can impact a lot.

Marc Sklar (38:14)

Yeah, so that I look at that in that fourth one with the uterine environment. So to me, that microbiome is a piece that I look at when I'm evaluating that. Yeah.

Michelle (38:23)

Yeah. And I feel like, I feel like they should always look at that, like before transfers. mean, cause people are paying so much money. And I know in Spain, it's more commonplace for them to give vaginal, suppositories for, probiotics. And I feel like it would really be very helpful for a lot of people.

Marc Sklar (38:33)

Yep.

Great.

Yeah, I've started running that test much more frequently in the last year. And I can't say I run it for everybody because at some point I'm just balancing cost of things, right? Like we could run every test under the sun. It's just like, it's a matter of cost. But certainly if I see implantation failure, if I see chemical pregnancies, you know, these are the sorts of things that for sure I'll start to look at.

Michelle (38:48)

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Chris. Yeah.

Yeah, for sure. I mean, we could talk for hours, I love that we talked about, first of all, it's really interesting just to get your take on things and to hear from another person who's doing the same thing, But also, you know, I love the fact that you were talking about the energetics of it, because I think that when you do this long enough, you start to see patterns and you could start to see how emotions can really constrict the chi, you know, from our perspective.

Marc Sklar (39:38)

Yeah, sure.

Michelle (39:39)

So I think that that is really important because yes, we could look at all the little details and the numbers and the stats, but the energetics aspect, we can get so kind of like focused on the small parts. And then sometimes it's good to kind of go zoom back and see the bigger picture. So I thought what you said about that to me was very, very powerful.

Marc Sklar (40:01)

Yeah, all of these things, like everything we talked about today is so valuable for those individuals who need that specific message, right? Like we're all in a different place and we all have our own journey, but hopefully, you know, the messages we shared today and the information we shared today really resonated with those who are listening.

Michelle (40:10)

Yeah.

I'm sure they did for sure. mean, was a really valuable information. So it's been great having you back, Dr. Sklar. It's been too long and we should do this every so often because I feel like we're never going to really run out of things to talk about. Thank you so much for coming on.

Marc Sklar (40:34)

I agree. I'm happy to be on any time. Yeah,

Yeah, I appreciate it and wishing everyone success on their journeys.

EP 314 Does This Innovative Treatment Offer Hope for Fertility? | Dr. Jeff Gross

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I speak to Dr. Jeff Gross, a top Neurosurgeon who has a background specializing in athletic injuries and spine procedures. Dr. Jeff shares his journey from spinal neurosurgery to the forefront of regenerative medicine, focusing on the transformative potential of stem cells and exosomes. He explains the science behind stem cells, their applications in treating joint degeneration, and their role in anti-aging and fertility. Dr. Jeff also discusses the regulatory landscape, the cost of treatments, and the exciting future of stem cell research, including innovative approaches to enhance mitochondrial function which has a lot of promise when it comes to egg and sperm health.

Takeaways

• Stem cells can be used to treat various conditions, including inflammation.

• Accumulation of inflammation is a key factor in aging and conception challenges.

• Exosomes may play a significant role in the benefits of stem cell therapy.

• Regenerative medicine is evolving rapidly, with new research emerging.

• The cost of stem cell treatments can vary but is becoming more accessible.

• Stem cells are sourced from well-regulated donor programs in the US.

• Direct injection of stem cells may yield higher doses than IV administration.

• Future research may explore the use of exosomes in fertility treatments.

• Dr. Jeff emphasizes the importance of personalized treatment plans. 

Guest Bio:

Dr. Jeffrey Gross graduated from the University of California, Berkeley with a degree in biochemistry and molecular cell biology. He earned his Doctor of Medicine in 1992 from the George Washington University School of Medicine. He contributed to virology research during his studies. After graduating, he undertook a residency in neurological surgery at the University of California, Irvine Medical Center until 1997. He then pursued a Fellowship and Chief Residency in Spinal Biomechanics at the University of New Mexico until 1999. Licensed in California and Nevada, Dr. Gross has SPINE practices in Orange County and Henderson, Nevada. A trained neurological surgeon, he specializes in athletic injuries and spine procedures, and offers longevity and biohacking consultations. He achieved board certification by the American Board of Neurological Surgery and is a member of several prestigious medical societies. He has written textbooks and articles in his area of expertise and is a peer-reviewer for the state of California and a scientific journal. Since 2020, Top Doctor recognized Dr. Gross as a leading Neurological Surgeon. He also received HealthTap’s 2022 Top Doctor Award as a top Neurological Surgeon in the U.S. Dr. Gross founded ReCELLebrate, focusing on anti-aging and regenerative medicine. The mission for ReCELLebrate emphasizes offering modern biochemical treatments and considering surgery as a last resort.

Websites:

https://recellebrate.com/

https://www.instagram.com/recellebrate/

https://www.tiktok.com/@recellebrate

https://www.youtube.com/@stemcellwhisperer

https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeffrey-gross-md-5605605/

For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Check out Michelle’s Latest Book: The Way of Fertility!

https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

Transcript:

Michelle (00:00)

Welcome to the podcast, Dr. Jeff.

Dr. Jeff (00:03)

Thank you so much for having me. Nice to see you.

Michelle (00:06)

Nice to see you as well. So you definitely have a very long, impressive background. So I'd love for you to share your story on how you got to really to the anti-aging stem cells work that you do, So I'd love to just get a quick background so the listeners can hear.

Dr. Jeff (00:26)

Sure, thank you for that. It was by accident of sorts, maybe directed accident because I was practicing as a spinal neurosurgeon, taking care mainly of neck and back trouble, some other neurological issues, nerve problems, things like that. But my practice was highly consultative, a lot of opinions, second opinions. I was seeing patients who had neck and back problems that were perhaps...

mistreated or not fully treated elsewhere. And I was kind of, I was kind of a catchall for that. But my patients came to me one at a time. And these are patients that had tried different things and they just didn't work adequately. Like physical therapy, like anti-inflammatories, like rest, like, you know, chiropractic, acupuncture, maybe spinal epidural injections or things like that.

And they'd come in and say, well, you know, help for a minute, but just wasn't enough. I'm still having a lot of trouble with my neck or back or pinch nerve or whatever. And I say, well, the next thing on the menu is to talk about surgical options. And they'd say, well, I'm not that bad. So wait a minute. Okay, good. Cause I was hoping you would say you're not ready for that. Cause I really didn't want to offer that to you. Cause I've always been on the slow to operate side of things. So, a lot of them would say, well, how about lasers or how about.

Michelle (01:37)

Mm-hmm, yeah.

Dr. Jeff (01:52)

herbs or how about cannabis or how about stem cells? And I heard the stem cell one more than once and chance favors the prepared mind. So my undergraduate background is in molecular cell biology, which is kind of the stem cell, know, root of stem cell biology. And, you know, when you get whisked off from undergraduate to med school and residency and practice,

you don't really get to apply that cool science. So the nerd part of me took over and said, I wonder what's happened in all these years since I went to undergraduate, you know? So instead of going to the Stodgy Neurosurgeon Convention every year, or more than one, where the same people pat themselves on the back for saying the same things for decades, I decided I'm going to open my mind and start going to stem cell and regenerative medicine meetings.

Michelle (02:46)

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Jeff (02:46)

So I can offer this to my spine patients. So I did that and I not only brought back a new tool to offer them, but it blossomed into so much more. You can't get access to regenerative medicine, stem cell medicine, and I'm using those phrases sort of interchangeably here, and not say, I'll help your knee or your ankle or your shoulder or your...

autoimmune issues or other hyper inflamed states. Or, you you read more and you see accumulation of inflammation is really the aging process. And if you can fight against inflammation accumulating, you're fighting against aging. So the whole anti-aging umbrella opened up and here I am, you know, six years later where spinal medicine is only a small percentage of my practice and I love it.

Michelle (03:33)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

That's great. So, so for people listening, some people might be like, okay, I kind of heard about stem cells, but what exactly are they? So just for people listening for the first time, we're really not understanding that aspect of like what they are. Cause we hear about it a lot. And over the years, like you said, stem cell research has really drastically changed and has gone into so many different things. Sometimes we hear about like

Dr. Jeff (03:45)

So.

Yeah.

Michelle (04:12)

you know, back in the day about them growing a liver, like, you know, the possibility of growing organs through stem cells. for people who are really new to this, I would love for you to break it down.

Dr. Jeff (04:15)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

sure, let's do stem cell 101. That's great. and being a fertility podcast, this is relevant probably more than any other area of medicine because fertility and creating an embryo is, you know, creating a group of stem cells that divide and grow into a fetus who's made of all stem cells, right? And then,

Michelle (04:28)

Hahaha

Right.

Dr. Jeff (04:54)

then that fetus is born and it's a baby and the baby grows for 18, 20, 25 years, whatever. And that growth requires stem cells. And then after that, an adult has to maintain, has to replace, has to restore, has to regenerate and that requires stem cells. So what are these? They are cells from which other cells arise, from which other cells stem from. Okay? So, and they are...

Michelle (05:20)

Mm.

Dr. Jeff (05:24)

They are powerful because there are different types, right? We throw out the phrase stem cells, but when you're a one cell or a two cell or a four cell embryo, you have these omnipotent cells. They can form any part of your body. They are amazingly powerful. As those divide and differentiate, meaning take on some specific characteristics, they become less powerful and more directed, and those are called pluripotent.

And a pluripotent might be able to regrow a limb. And as you, as you, and many of your listeners probably know, there are certain species that can still do that. Like a starfish, you cut off a leg of a starfish, it can regrow it. Or a tail of a lizard or a limb of an axolotl, which is a strain iguana like creature from Mexico. So there are many examples in biology where these pluripotent stem cells can be called upon. And you mentioned maybe regrowing a liver someday.

that will probably require some knowledge of pluripotent stem cells, which are being looked at. However, after these stem cells sort of retain, we bank them in our body as adults, those are called multipotent. So they can't regrow a limb, they can't regrow an organ per se, although they can replace some organ cells and regenerate. And you were always replacing cells, we're replacing skin cells and

you know, hair follicles and all kinds of things that require stem cells. If you have an injury and you cut yourself, you, require stem cells to help come repair that. and you know, we make new blood cells all the time that requires stem cells in our bone marrow. So we are using our stem cells. This is not new. We just know more about it now. And the whole move in regenerative medicine is, is to take

Michelle (07:03)

Mm.

Dr. Jeff (07:19)

a lesson from that biology and use it strategically to help somebody do something they need.

Michelle (07:27)

So interesting. So give us a couple of examples on how it works in the body. Like for somebody who needs it, for example, whereas like a therapy.

Dr. Jeff (07:34)

Well, the-

Right. So the low hanging fruit as an example, are joint degeneration. Also called arthritis or osteoarthritis vaguely, or some people it's called bone on bone if it's bad enough. Right. And these are your painful joints. It could be from an old injury, an old arthroscopic surgery. It could be from just, you know, accumulated wear and tear. And this is a problem with the joints where the cartilage

is, you know, down and the joint is painful. You can't use it as well stiffness, et cetera. And it slows people down. And when you slow people down, particularly in their older years, they're less mobile and then they can't maintain their bones, their bone density, AKA, you know, the one way to fight osteoporosis is weight bearing exercise. So if you can't, if your joints hurt, you're not going to do it. And muscle mass, cause both bone density and muscle mass are correlated with longevity. So if you keep moving.

You maintain your muscles and bones, you'll live longer statistically. So in any event, we want to preserve joints. And that's kind of why I got into this field. I'm a structural guy of the spine and it easily extrapolates to the other joints. And most of the research, the well-published research comes from knees and other joints. And just parenthetically, most of the good published research that we follow, because we're not just shooting from the hip here.

We do shoot some hips, but it comes from Asia and Europe. The United States is behind, although we can do these things. And, you know, we can talk about that later, but the short of it is we have a really good track record of helping people with degenerated joints in reducing pain and improving function. And we do have some examples with where we've done some MRIs.

Michelle (09:09)

Ha ha ha!

Dr. Jeff (09:37)

before and after and the after MRIs have shown some regrowth of like knee cartilage, for example, and things like that. you know, we're not allowed to make any claims because we're not yet approved for marketing claims, but I can show examples and I have to say like you invest in stocks, know, past performance does not guarantee future results or something like that, but in medicine, never, yeah, yeah.

Michelle (10:01)

Right, and each person is different and unique. Yeah.

Dr. Jeff (10:05)

But anyway, it's better, listen, if you want to try to avoid a joint replacement surgery, it's worth looking into. So whether it's spine or joints, so that's the easy stuff. Low hanging fruit, I call it. The other stuff is anything with an inflammatory problem in your body can potentially have benefits from regenerative medicine on its face being a natural anti-inflammatory. So for example, autoimmune problems with hyperinflammation.

You know, like rheumatoid arthritis, thyroiditis, inflammatory bowel syndromes, MS, things that have an inflammatory component. Also, most diseases of aging are diseases of inflammation. So coronary artery disease, Alzheimer's, things like this, all have an inflammatory component. And this allows me to overlap into your area is there are some causes of fertility.

issues that have an inflammatory component, whether it's a uterine issue or ovarian failure. And sometimes fighting that inflammation, whether it's through lifestyle changes, diet, exercise, mindfulness, sleep, reducing mental stress, all those things can help reduce the inflammation and help potentially lead to successful pregnancy. The same can go for use of

regenerative biologics like stem cells, and they're not the only thing we use. And there are wonderful publications. And before we got on this, I refreshed my knowledge by doing a little homework. And there are even newer publications on use of these things to improve fertility. Now, most of these are from China because they are way ahead of us. But that doesn't mean they can't be applied here outside of China.

Michelle (12:01)

Interesting. So interesting. So how do they get these stem cells?

Dr. Jeff (12:07)

So stem cells and other related biologic material in the US comes from a well-regulated donor program. Typically the donors are women who are planning to have a C-section. Some of the labs even recruit the donors in the first trimester, make sure they're having a healthy pregnancy, they're not using substances they shouldn't be using, they take their prenatal vitamins, they're not in any high-risk behaviors.

And at the time of the C-section, they simply, and once the mother is congratulated with her new baby, they take the amniotic fluid, they take the umbilical cord, they take the placenta and they put them on ice in a sterile fashion and they go to an FDA compliant certified lab that can test and screen the materials, make sure there's nothing in there, no diseases, no problems, and then make it available to clinics and end users like myself.

So there are myths that all kinds of crazy stuff are happening out there, but not here in the US. We use highly regulated donor processes.

Michelle (13:19)

When you have the stem cells from donors, can they be multiplied or is it just like a finite amount? Whatever is there is there.

Dr. Jeff (13:28)

They can be, there are labs that put them in culture, would let them grow and divide and that's one thing that can be done. Now, just like anything, a copy of a copy of a copy tends to lose its vitality. So, things like telomere length, which is an aging marker, that changes with each division of a cell. So I don't like to use a divided material.

Michelle (13:50)

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Jeff (13:58)

I use just fresh first pass stuff. Maybe your listeners are a little young for this, but there's a really funny movie called Multiplicity, where Michael Keaton clones himself, and each clone is a little bit wonkier than the original. if you want a good laugh, yeah, check out that movie. But in short, I prefer the actual native original self.

Michelle (14:15)

Comedy used to be so much better.

Right. Got it. Is this similar to cord blood, you know, when they, when the baby's born and they say, do you, you know, you can opt to do that and then store

Dr. Jeff (14:27)

When we do self,

Yeah, let's tap into that for just a second and unpack it if it's okay. know, historically you would be offered to donate or not donate, but store your umbilical cord. And the purpose of that was, God forbid your child gets leukemia in seven years, you have a matched set of cells that they culture, they do divide.

Michelle (15:01)

Mm-hmm. Right.

Dr. Jeff (15:02)

and replace the child's bone marrow, you don't have to worry about a donor or a match. Now you can do that and you can also use, in some labs we'll use those umbilical cord cells as a source for any other future purpose, whether it's a joint problem or what have you, they're now doing that. In fact, you can use that for family members as well. So the reasons for a bank in your umbilical cord, and they probably won't tell you in the pamphlet, because it's not yet approved for marketing claims.

Michelle (15:19)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Jeff (15:31)

is much more than just, you know, just in case there's a case of leukemia, you need a full bone marrow replacement.

Michelle (15:39)

So interesting. how, when you do have the stem cells, first of all, it must cost a fortune, it sounds like, it's limited. It's not something that you, because you're depending on donors.

Dr. Jeff (15:52)

No, well, there's a little bit more to it. And that, and I keep using the phrase stem cells and other biologics. Let's, let's talk about other biologics for a minute because some of these other biologics are less expensive and here in the U S it's, it's affordable. You don't have to necessarily leave the country and go to go to central America or, you know, Hong Kong to get this or Europe. A lot of the professional athletes historically went to Europe, but they're, they're getting it here, here in the U S too.

Michelle (15:59)

Okay.

Mm-hmm.

that's good.

Dr. Jeff (16:22)

But we found out that if we gave you stem cells, let's say you came over and I hooked up an IV and we gave you stem cells, in 10 to 14 days, those would be out of your system. However, the benefits would go on for weeks or months or even some of the benefits would be prolonged. So why is that? If the stem cells are gone, what's going on? Well, it turns out the stem cells aren't really doing all the work. The stem cells are delivering cell to cell communicating and influential

Michelle (16:31)

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Jeff (16:52)

biomolecules, peptides, growth factors, small RNAs from cell, from the stem cells to your cells, reinvigorating and activating your cells to do that work. And those, those communication packets are called extracellular vesicles or for short exosomes. And you may have seen this, a lot of estheticians use them. You know, they can do the atom to your microneedle facial.

Michelle (17:11)

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Jeff (17:20)

It's sort of an advanced vampire facial with these exosomes. So the exosomes are probably doing most of the work that the stem cells were doing. And there are advantages. They penetrate tissue better. They're easier to store and handle. They'll cross the blood brain barrier if you want them in your brain and nervous system. And they're less than half the price of stem cells. So we can do things that used to cost, you know, 20, $30,000 out of this country.

for less than half of that here, because the big cost is the materials, these biologics. So what does it cost was your original question, but now that you know we're using these exosomes preferentially in a lot of these cases. And by the way, as an aside, all stem cells, sorry, start over, all cells make exosomes. We're using stem cell derived exosomes from amniotic fluid, which is quite abundant. So there are really no cells in this.

Michelle (18:11)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Jeff (18:19)

There's no matching that needs to be done. and it's, it's wonderful. So, the, you know, for example, treating a knee, if we're trying to repair a knee, help someone heal a knee, we're asking their cells to do the work. We're just providing the, the, the re-instruction to tap back into the original factory that made that joint in the first place. And something that like that is kind of two doses of biologics, one above one below the knee.

the injection, the facility and everything where we do it as sterile. All that is, you know, in the nine to 12,000, depending on what we're doing. So it's not, it's not crazy. And IVs, if we do an IV, that's anywhere from like 4,000 to 8,500, depending on the dose.

Michelle (18:54)

Mm-hmm.

And how many times would somebody have to do that?

Dr. Jeff (19:07)

Maybe once. Usually the joints are one and done and then they go back to their normal wear and tear. So is it possible someone's going to come back in in 20 years and need it again maybe, but that's okay. We follow a French protocol that has published 15 year follow-up and we follow that protocol how they do it. And they've had over 82 % of the patients had wonderful results at the 15 year mark. We're waiting for them to publish the 20 year mark.

Michelle (19:10)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Jeff (19:35)

So we're not making this up. We're just duplicating what's already been done and good science that's out there.

Michelle (19:42)

And for inflammatory conditions, autoimmune conditions, or even fertility, well, you know, because it's secondary to that a lot of times. Do you use IV? So really get it right into the bloodstream. Okay.

Dr. Jeff (19:51)

Right, right.

Yeah, I would definitely. yeah. Yeah. And that's how we approach anti-aging anyway. People are biohackers, anti-agers that come in. This is what we do. And we, we do an IV. We, we try to figure out a dose that makes sense for that person based on the budget and their age and maybe their inflammatory markers and their blood tests and other things. And then we see how long it lasts. And some people get a year, two years. Some people get, you know, six months.

Some people come in preventively and do every three months a lower dose. just, we customize it for the individual.

Michelle (20:33)

And that crosses the blood brain barrier. So it's good for brain health, really for just everything. The system.

Dr. Jeff (20:37)

Yeah. Anywhere there's an inflammatory burden, we'll do it. But exosomes do cross the blood-brain barrier. And let me go off script here for a second. For listeners that have been pregnant before, in later trimesters, a pregnant woman has glowing skin and her hair is growing wonderfully. And typically, there's not a lot of joint pain, maybe

Michelle (20:43)

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Jeff (21:06)

low back pain from carrying the weight, why is that woman in, you know, not having this great skin and all that, it's because that woman is getting a daily dose of stem cell derived exosomes because they also not only cross the blood brain barrier, they cross the placental barrier. So what we do is almost simulate that in a single dose.

Michelle (21:25)

Mm-hmm. Got it.

That's so interesting. in that case, when you are doing IV, is that also one and done?

Dr. Jeff (21:37)

No, like I was saying, it depends on what benefits someone gets and for how long they last. It could be depending on the person's need. Now, if it's someone who's got an inflammatory problem and they're just trying to get pregnant, could be a one and done. If it's someone that has benefited from it and wants to do it repetitively, then we would help support that and make it available.

Michelle (21:43)

I see.

Mm-hmm. Done.

Have you heard of this being used and injected directly into like uterus or those areas or is it typically more like IV?

Dr. Jeff (22:11)

So not into the uterus, although there are examples in men of injecting the testes where they're not producing adequate sperm counts. I think IV would be a first. So I didn't read anything about ovarian injection yet. Could that be coming? Possibly. IV is obviously an easier thing to do. So I would try the IV first. But you're right, you're going to get a higher dose if you inject directly.

Michelle (22:20)

Mm-hmm.

Or ovaries maybe?

Mm-hmm.

Dr. Jeff (22:40)

That might be something to look at. haven't done it. We do have some sexual health shots we do at the exosomes now where we do P shots and O shots for men and women respectively for improvement in sensation, lubrication, that kind of.

Michelle (22:53)

Mm-hmm.

I know that they do PRP with the ovaries and I think also uterus. So that's why I was asking because it's kind of similar, you doesn't have the same exact substance, but it's the idea of stimulating.

Dr. Jeff (23:14)

No, I completely agree with that. PRP is basically a very lower, it's the lowest end self-donated regenerative medicine. And it probably contains some cells and some exosomes in there.

Michelle (23:21)

Mm-hmm. Right.

So interesting. that's really fascinating. for you specifically, like if people wanted to work with you, do they have to come visit you, your office, where you are?

Dr. Jeff (23:38)

Not necessarily. So, you know, most of what we do, we start out remotely. The vast majority of my patients come from somewhere other than Las Vegas, where I'm located, actually Henderson, Nevada, which is a suburb of Las Vegas. Most people start remotely. We do a lot of the blood tests or if they need MRIs or what have you remotely, and we only invite them to come to town if there's a reason to come to town. We do have some other colleagues in other parts of the states too that can do IVs.

things like that so we can sometimes refer. Yeah.

Michelle (24:09)

Mm-hmm. It's really fascinating. It seems like state of the art. It's like the new thing that's coming out.

Dr. Jeff (24:13)

and

It's a, and there are things coming. if you'll allow me to just jump there for a second. you know, we are working on some projects here at, at my practice. one of them involves exosomes that are stuffed with extra mitochondria. And for those of you that don't know, that's a small part within the cell. It's kind of a cell within the cell. we learned in high school biology, it was the powerhouse of the cell. made the energy, but it actually does much more.

Michelle (24:22)

of course. Yeah.

Hmm

Dr. Jeff (24:46)

And some causes of infertility relate to poor mitochondrial activity in the cells of the ovaries and things like that. So we're looking at exosomes that could be overstuffed with, that can donate more mitochondria. So that could be very useful. There are many other reasons to do that as well. And then we're even involved in a project that may be useful to help patients with cancer. And this is a particular exosome.

that comes from a certain type of immune cell, a T cell in our body, whose job is to identify, circulate around the body, identify, and then selectively remove or kill an abnormal cell like a cancer cell. So imagine that as an augmentative therapy or even as a preventative. Yeah, so we're hot on that trail. That's coming soon to a, to a re-celebrate clinic near you.

Michelle (25:36)

That's fantastic.

I love that. That's awesome. That's really amazing. And what have you seen so far in regards to fertility? you seen people do this treatment and it work? with fertility, there's so many different reasons for why. I mean, it could be so many different. It's really a range of underlying conditions, but what have you noticed so far?

Dr. Jeff (26:03)

Correct. So honestly, I don't have a fertility practice that's pretty far afield from what I do. I do a lot of structural work, a lot of joints, a lot of spine. We do some autoimmune and a few other things. But I have talked to colleagues, fertility specialists in the past, and we've talked about exosomes. I was at a biohacking conference in Texas last year.

Michelle (26:11)

Yeah.

Dr. Jeff (26:32)

the Dave Asprey event and someone came up to me and asked me about fertility. So I know it's on my radar. It's just not something we put out there necessarily. had one gentleman that had low sperm count. We had talked about doing something for him, but he didn't do it yet.

Michelle (26:34)

Mm-hmm.

But have you seen or through colleagues or any studies that have shown even just IV, doing this with IV that it's helped?

Dr. Jeff (27:00)

I've only read the abstract of some of the Chinese studies because we don't always get the full article translated. But most of those studies speak to direct injection. They have a lot of animal studies. So I don't have information on the clinical use of...

Michelle (27:07)

Okay.

Dr. Jeff (27:25)

exosomes personally for fertility, but I know that others have talked to me about it. So it's being done. And I, I did look it up online before we met today and you can actually find, there was a clinic in Europe that was advertising it for this purpose for fertility. Yeah.

Michelle (27:31)

Mm-hmm.

Interesting. Yeah, which I'm sure people don't really have to go all the way to Europe. I'm sure also if you get the IV and your body's going through this anti-aging and your mitochondria are benefiting and also, which is very much linked to aging eggs. So you want to like revitalize and reawaken and also lower inflammation that also helps with egg quality and sperm quality.

Dr. Jeff (27:54)

and

Michelle (28:08)

So this is just definitely something that I found when I saw you, I was like, this is really interesting. I think that it's something that people should be hearing about. And I'm sure I wouldn't be surprised if in the future, a lot of fertility clinics are going to start looking into this as well.

Dr. Jeff (28:26)

Yeah, no, the one that was advertising is an international fertility group, I think, in Eastern Europe. And they specifically have a webpage on this. Now, we can't have those webpages here in the US because we are not yet approved for marketing claims.

Michelle (28:32)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Right.

It's so interesting how all that works. But yeah, this is great. This is a really interesting topic and really great information. I love like cutting edge stuff. I love that it's kind of like to be continued because you're still like, You already have learned so much, but of course, there's so much more coming, which is exciting. I find it really exciting.

Dr. Jeff (29:00)

Yeah.

I do too. have this renewed interest. know, I'm, I'm a self admitted nerd. So this is, gets me back into things that are very exciting. I don't get to do the same thing day after day anymore. that's, that's.

Michelle (29:19)

I love that.

Yeah, for sure. So awesome. So for people who want to learn more about you and what you do, how can they find you?

Dr. Jeff (29:30)

Check out Re-Celebrate because you're celebrating the renewal of your cells. That's spelled R-E-C-E-L-L-E-B-R-A-T-E. And that is our website is recelebrate.com. Instagram is recelebrate at recelebrate it. LinkedIn, Pinterest, YouTube, but just type in recelebrate, you'll find it.

Michelle (29:52)

Awesome. And you'll find it also in the episode notes. So I'll share all the links in there, as well as information about Dr. Jeff. So this is a great conversation. This is really, really great. And I appreciate you coming on and explaining it so nicely and really breaking it down for us, you know, people that don't have that background. So thank you so much for coming on today, Dr. Jeff.

Dr. Jeff (30:03)

Yeah.

you

It's been my pleasure, thank you for having me.

EP 313 Is Your Immune System Getting in the Way of Conceiving Your Baby? Caryn Johnson

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, Caryn Johnson of @_bondlife shares her personal journey through infertility, detailing her struggles with unexplained infertility and the eventual discovery of autoimmune issues affecting her reproductive health. She emphasizes the importance of understanding the immune system's role in fertility and the impact of lifestyle factors such as diet, stress, and environmental toxins. Caryn advocates for women to take charge of their health by educating themselves and seeking out supportive healthcare practitioners. She also discusses her supplement line, Bond, which aims to address these issues holistically.

Takeaways

• Caryn's journey began with unexplained infertility.

• She experienced multiple failed IVF attempts.

• The immune system plays a crucial role in fertility.

• Many women with unexplained infertility have underlying immune issues.

• Stress and lifestyle factors significantly impact reproductive health.

• Gut health is linked to fertility and autoimmune conditions.

• Caryn's research led her to create a supplement line, Bond.

• Advocacy and education are essential for women facing infertility.

• Environmental toxins can affect fertility outcomes.

• Women should empower themselves with knowledge about their health.

Guest Bio:

Caryn Johnson is the Co-Founder and CEO of BOND, an innovative line of supplements reimagining hormone and reproductive health, inspired by her experience with infertility. The former Vital Proteins Chief Marketing Officer launched BOND in the Fall of 2023, fusing her professional expertise with her passion to help women take a more proactive and empowered approach to caring for their cycle and reproductive health.

In 2017, when trying to start a family, Caryn learned she was autoimmune infertile. What she discovered was a stark reality - the lack of open conversations and support for women facing similar struggles. The doctor's office often left much unsaid, and the information available was surprisingly scarce. Shocked by the limited support system in place, Caryn recognized the need for a change. She leaned on her industry knowledge and contacts to advocate for herself and uncover invaluable resources. Her personal journey became a catalyst for a larger mission to make her learnings accessible to women everywhere. It was this experience that led her to create BOND. 

A natural born innovator, Caryn is disrupting the marketplace with this new line of products that offers women the opportunity to take control of their reproductive health before it’s too late. BOND’s proprietary formulations, designed to preserve fertility potential and lay the foundation for a healthier body, feature science-backed ingredients that work together to balance hormones, protect egg health, and provide cycle support. With BOND, Caryn aims to address women’s health more holistically and encourage a more proactive conversation around reproductive wellness. 

Caryn’s career began in marketing and public relations where she worked with many notable beauty brands and PR firms before being recruited as the fifth employee at then startup, Vital Proteins. She was the first marketing hire at the organization and ultimately, became the company’s Chief Marketing Officer leading the team through the brand’s acquisition by Nestle Health Sciences. Following her tenure at Vital Proteins, Caryn took on the challenge of leading Owlet, a baby monitor company focused on preventing SIDS, where she served as Chief Marketing Officer and successfully guided the company through its initial public offering.

Caryn lives in Chicago with her husband and two children Elijah and Ruthie. 

You can use coupon code THEWHOLESOME for 20% off all products. https://bond.life

For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Check out Michelle’s Latest Book: The Way of Fertility!

https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

Transcript:

Michelle (00:00)

Welcome to the podcast, Karin.

Caryn Johnson (00:02)

Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Michelle (00:05)

It's so nice to meet you. And I know that you do a lot of amazing work helping women I also know that you have your own story that you can share. And I would love to hear your story and really what got you inspired to do the work that you're doing.

Caryn Johnson (00:21)

Yeah, absolutely. So I'm here to share really the start of how I got to where I am today. And that really is rooted in finding out that I couldn't get pregnant. So we can start there and then we can get into all of the details together. But my husband and I met when I was young, early 20s. And by the time we got married many years later, we were already

most right away to start having a family. There was a piece of me inside that knew that I was gonna have some sort of issue. I don't know, you already mentioned that you do visualizations to me before we started. So, you know, like I just had this feeling whether I manifested it for myself or not. I, you know, we did the full year of trying to get pregnant to no success and then went back to our doctor.

Michelle (01:03)

Yeah, yeah.

Caryn Johnson (01:18)

my typical OB-GYN and started the path of IUIs, did four IUIs, had beautiful eggs, each IUI, and reacted to the medicine quite well, but never got a positive from any of those. So we were recommended to move towards IVF. found a reproductive endocrinologist in Chicago, which is where I was located at the time.

started the path to IVF and went through the process of an egg retrieval. Ended up seeing similar to what we saw in the IUIs, which was that my reproductive system performed quite well. And I was able, they were able to retrieve just about 30 eggs from one retrieval, which is quite high, borderline too high, but.

just shows like the reaction to the medicine and the overall viability of my reproductive system. Of that, I had really normal odds and was able to bank close to 14, I believe, quality grade embryos. So I was really excited to move into implantation because at that point,

I just really thought like whatever was unexplained is just kind of, you know, over to the side now. you know, all these things are just working out in my favor. So this is gonna be, you know, it for me, which a lot of women I feel like go into IVF feeling like the IVF center is like the place where you get your baby, which isn't always true. So.

I started doing implantations and I started losing babies. Prior to that point, I had never even tested positive in any sort of like regard for a pregnancy test. And I wasn't one of those that, you know, jumped right off birth control, you know, to move into conception. I hadn't been on birth control for many, many, many, many years, you know, prior to this point. But the implantations started failing and

My doctor said, this embryo was only attached for two hours, maybe a couple of hours is what they said. I just thought, how on earth, like why on earth would something attach for just a couple of hours and then that be the situation where

It just doesn't work out from there. Like what is happening? And you know, got immediately, the immediate response was bad odds. You know, this happens, miscarriage happens. Just keep going. You know, one in four, in eight, you you get all the stats and there's definitely a piece of that when you're not working with really good quality embryos. But you know, I was, I knew that everything was genetically great. knew.

and had no reason to believe that my body wasn't in working order to, you know, produce a pregnancy. So I just started pushing harder and getting a little bit more more fearful of continuing down the path of losing babies because I just, it hit me so hard. Even the loss of two hours, I mean,

I just like, I've never felt sorrow like that. And I didn't, I just didn't feel like myself or really anyone should have to like continue down that path for like the sake of odds. So I started doing my own research and I was at the time experiencing some issues in my digestive system. I also now looking back had a definite cortisol issue.

which relates into the picture, but I was a CMO at Vital Proteins at the time, which is that blue tub collagen company. And so I had a high stress level and I knew that something was going on in my digestive system. This was, you know, 2016, 2015, 2016, 2017. So.

Michelle (05:39)

yeah.

Caryn Johnson (05:58)

almost prior to when we really started, you know, as a world, as a community talking about the microbiome and gut health. But I sought out a naturopath who ended up doing a blood panel on me and told me that I had, you know, hundreds of food sensitivities, which is a

a classic sign of gut dysbiosis, but at the time it wasn't translated back to like an issue in the microbiome. It was treated as like, yes, you have all of these, you have all of these issues with, you know, different foods, just avoid them. And that will be the solve versus, why do you have like, you know, why do you have a hundred things that you can't eat?

Michelle (06:42)

Hmm.

Caryn Johnson (06:46)

like watermelon seeds up to your typical gluten, et cetera. So I just started doing my own research online and I found a book called, Is My Body Baby Friendly? It's written by Dr. Alan Beer, who is now deceased, but it's over 700 pages of the science of how the immune system works with your reproductive system, your hormones, et cetera.

in order to effectively procreate or in order for conception and implantation to occur. And that's when I realized there was something greater going on in my body outside again of just my reproductive system that we just hadn't figured out yet. So I read the book Front to Back. It's a very science heavy book. So I had to do a lot of like

thinking about new terms and figuring and trying to remember what I was learning. At the end of the book, there was a recommendation at the time, there are more doctors now, but at the time for three doctors that practice this type of medicine, which is the field of reproductive immunology. And so,

Michelle (08:01)

Mm-hmm.

Caryn Johnson (08:03)

One of those doctors, Dr. Joanne Kwok-Kam of Rosalind Franklin ended up being in my backyard essentially 45 minutes away in the Chicago area. So I took that as a sign that I needed to call and get additional help above and beyond my RE who was doing the IVF. And I called over there and was immediately put on a six month wait list.

So proceeded with the next round of IVF because I was already on some hormones. So I was already going through the round. I had at that point only done my own research. So I wasn't really sure what was going on in my body or if I could believe what I had read because my doctors that were helping me with the IVF weren't really like saying that

They believed in the immunology side of things. They hadn't seen enough research, et cetera. So I wasn't really getting support on what I was researching. So it was around the holidays, October-ish, when I ended up calling into the clinic and I ended up getting a call right around

Thanksgiving that they had a cancellation and I got moved up on the wait list. So I ended up getting into the reproductive immunology clinic many months before they said I would two weeks before my next IVF transfer and that was just an awesome Hail Mary. They did a full ultrasound. So tip to toe thyroid, you know, your whole stomach area inside and outside.

And then they do the craziest blood panel that I've ever done. don't know how you can even draw that much blood, but vials and vials of blood to look at immune markers in addition to hormone markers, vitamin markers, and your typical blood panel. And they called me back 48 hours later and said, need to cancel this implantation. You have the highest level of antibodies that we've ever seen.

not that we've ever seen, but that we're able to track. So you're past like where the chart goes essentially. So if you proceed with your implantation, it's almost definitely gonna end in a miscarriage because your body is gonna fight it off. And at that point I was terrified because that was like the first real something's actually wrong with you that I had heard.

Michelle (10:21)

wow.

Wow.

Caryn Johnson (10:50)

Everything else was just unexplained, unexplained, unexplained. And I just went into shock. I didn't know what to do. I didn't know who to believe. You know, I had two sets of doctors saying different things. So I proceeded with the implantation and I ended up implanting both a boy and a girl embryo. And then

started treatment right away on my immune system through the reproductive immunologist. So what they did was they put me on a series of pretty intense medications to quiet my immune system. And then I did what is called IVIG, which are blood transfusions or infusions that essentially look

to wash your blood of the antibodies that are over protecting the immune system. So I went into this protocol and I ended up getting pregnant. It was positive right away. we saw, so the clinic ended up treating me one to three times a week with this IVIG infusion, which they're about two to three hours long based on, they're based on body weight.

Michelle (11:50)

Mm-hmm.

Caryn Johnson (12:14)

I was in their office, you know, at least one to two times a week, also for an ultrasound. So I knew by five weeks that both embryos had attached. you know, at that point, my immune markers were even more all over the place. We couldn't get my immune system to a stable level by any means. And I ended up losing the girl embryo at seven weeks.

her heartbeat slowed and then ultimately it stopped, which is one of the symptoms or issues when you have an autoimmune issue going into a pregnancy. So, you know, that was so sad and devastating and she was higher up in the womb than the boy embryo. So at that point,

It was pretty much 50-50 odds of if she was going to end up coming out and bringing him with her or if she was going to be what's called a vanishing twin, which is when your body reabsorbs the pregnancy for the sake of the other pregnancy, which is really the best case scenario because then you don't lose the other baby.

Michelle (13:18)

my gosh.

Caryn Johnson (13:36)

I was put on bed rest. This was the start of my bed rest between six and seven weeks, which continued until I gave birth, basically. I was able to go to work, but that was pretty much it. And I lived in fear that we were going to lose a little boy, but I ended up reabsorbing the girl embryo. So she never came out and we just really aggressively treated my immune system.

which held on until 34 weeks when I went into basically how the immune system works during the pregnancy is during the first trimester, there is more inflammation that can be in the body and then it has to subside for the second trimester to continue successfully and then your inflammation increases and that's

eventually causes or is part of why you go into labor. But my inflammation and my immune system increased really fast. my water broke early and I ended up having him, you know, early but he was healthy because some of the immune medications included steroids. So he was a little bit bigger than, you know, your typical

34, 35 weaker. But I was able to carry my son and that really started my story of what the heck happened and why is autoimmunity so under researched when it comes to your reproduction and your fertility chances and how can I actually do more now that I have my children here.

Michelle (15:06)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Caryn Johnson (15:33)

to support other women so they don't have to go through this amount of trauma, right? But also this amount of like research and advocacy for themselves because at the end of the day, like we just can't expect that from everyone and we shouldn't. We should be able to support. Yeah, so I'll take a breath there.

Michelle (15:40)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Wow, that's incredible story. And I mean, it's it's mind boggling, you know, that, nobody really talks about something that is so prevalent. And I do see that a lot, actually. And it could be the reason why you have unexplained infertility or why transfers don't work. And I speak to Amy Ralph, Amy Ralph, she's a

Caryn Johnson (16:19)

Yeah.

Michelle (16:20)

she does the same thing, Chinese medicine. And she talks about this a lot. She says, if you miscarry or you have repeated transfer failures with a good embryo and your doctor doesn't look into like what your lining is doing and how your immune system is working, then go to a different doctor because it's so important to look into that because you could spend so much time.

and you can spend so much money and just so many precious years going through so much loss for something that could be treated but can also be prevented. So I'd love to actually get your input on what you've discovered and how the gut relates to it but maybe other things that you've noticed or learned for the listeners.

Caryn Johnson (16:59)

Absolutely.

Yeah, absolutely. And I think what you're saying is just incredibly important. Like the immune system, I feel like is the secret starting point to a lot of issues. And what's happening in medicine right now is a lot of women are walking away with an unexplained infertility diagnosis, but they're accepting that as a diagnosis, right? When it's not, it's just, it's not an answer.

And if you look underneath kind of that answer, you see a lot of crazy statistics, such as over 65 % of women who have unexplained infertility actually have an issue in their immune system. And then similarly over 60 % have an issue in their metabolic system. So blood sugar, insulin, know, early signs of PCOS, et cetera. And then.

Michelle (18:05)

You

Caryn Johnson (18:10)

When you look, you see that there are deep, deep nutrient deficiencies happening in this group of women as well. So you're looking at vitamin D deficiencies, vitamin B deficiencies, magnesium, omegas. All of these start with modulations that occur in the immune system as well. So when you think about it on a deeper level and from the research that I've done,

Michelle (18:23)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm, yeah.

Caryn Johnson (18:39)

you're looking at something that's happened to you before it's affecting your hormones and triggering one of these other issues in your reproductive system. So like for instance, not only do I have, you know, autoimmune infertility, I do carry PCOS and adenomyosis as well. And for me, and based on the research that I've done, those are secondary factors.

to my immune system modulating and creating an overly inflammatory environment in my body, which then produced those issues. So we're not going up far enough in the chain of our bodies as to understanding our full systems. And again, it kind of goes back to like what's happening in medicine, which is that our doctors are

Classically trained in our reproductive organs, right? So they know our uterus they know our ovaries they understand how those work, but we need to get into you know, a new phase where we have Practitioners that understand how all of the systems are working together in our body Including our immune system and our endocrine system because they do have such a big and almost starting impact

Michelle (19:57)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Caryn Johnson (20:07)

on what's happening with our fertility.

Michelle (20:10)

yeah, I completely agree. And I also I'm wondering, like, what have you seen? Because I think that when you talked about the food sensitivities, you were saying that it's okay, I'm allergic to so many things, or I'm sensitive to so many things, but why? So like, what are the things that you've seen that cause it to begin with?

Caryn Johnson (20:28)

Yeah.

Yeah. So there are a couple of things that I see as a starting factors. One is overall stress. So if you can't keep your stress in check, you can't keep your cortisol levels in check, then your adrenal function will not perform in the rest of your hormones will not function correctly, which then trickles into some of these other problems. and then you get into other factors like what you're putting in your body.

the nutrition that you have or you don't have. They're saying the American diet is still between 60 and 80 % processed food. So we're putting still mostly junk into our systems that's modulating and creating these environments that we don't want. Number three is dysbiosis of the gut, right? Which is a huge factor in

Michelle (21:13)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Caryn Johnson (21:31)

overall well-being and then your chances at fertility because what happens is that if your gut is in dysbiosis, your mucosal lining is disrupted and all of the toxins that are supposed to be in this like, think of it like pipe in your body, piped to get to the outside are now permeating that pipe and moving into your system and causing again, these major inflammation issues.

these, this uproar of immune response that is hard to counteract. You know, once you have that level of bacteria and then toxins that are entering the bloodstream. And then the last kind of reason that you would be kind of in this situation is just based on what's going on in your environment. So are you living in a city, you know,

that a lot of people in Detroit, for instance, there's a bigger rate of infertility there versus, you know, your non-city residents. It's also based on the toxins that enter your home. So are you getting rid of your plastics? Are you looking at the cleaning supplies you're using, the makeup you're putting on your face? It seems simple, but this toxic overload, again,

Michelle (22:52)

Mm-hmm.

Caryn Johnson (22:55)

creates this inflammatory response, which modulates your immune system. So those are really the four categories that kind of put you in this place. And then it kind of gets into epigenetics, which is like, you know, you've created this new world for yourself that your body has become. And, you know, is it going to be like that or are you going to be able to get yourself out of it?

Michelle (23:23)

Yeah. my God. It's so important and it's true. We hear all the different factors and actually those toxins and the endocrine disruptors can be found in food, I mean, through pesticides and that can also impact your gut dysbiosis. so it's just, it's like an entangled web and it really is like a reflection of how we're living today and what's allowed in this country, which

Caryn Johnson (23:38)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Michelle (23:50)

I'm starting to get more and more frustrated with, you know, the fact that other countries are protecting their citizens more from chemicals and pesticides and things that are harming not only our health and chronic disease, also future. it's, it's unbelievable. And for that reason, I often tell people just go gluten free. It's not that.

Caryn Johnson (23:58)

Yeah.

Gosh, get me started on glyphosate. It's so sad.

Mm-hmm.

Michelle (24:16)

It's not that wheat is bad. And actually, as a matter of fact, a lot of people don't have those same responses if they go to Spain or Italy, even though it's not considered GMO, they have genetically modified it over the years. So there's so many aspects. So sometimes I'm just like, just remove it, And I see people feeling a lot better.

Caryn Johnson (24:26)

Right.

Yeah.

Michelle (24:41)

just from that, and especially with autoimmune conditions, actually that like going gluten free can really help. That's what I've seen.

Caryn Johnson (24:50)

Yeah, no, definitely. It's just our food source is really sad. And it's just, it's so hard to pinpoint at the end of the day because no one really has the exact answer. But I just like, you see the data, like women who are eating on a Mediterranean diet have a lower risk of endometriosis.

Michelle (24:55)

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Caryn Johnson (25:15)

women who have like vitamin sources through green leafy vegetables don't have as much PMS. So like the correlations are there. It's just like, how do we get people to make better decisions for their body and understand like, don't be me, don't make bad decisions and then get into a position where you can't have the life that you wanted or dreamed of, or you have to fight so hard for it because

Michelle (25:16)

Right.

Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Caryn Johnson (25:43)

of choices you made earlier in your life from lack of knowledge, you know?

Michelle (25:47)

Right. Yeah, totally. And then I also look at the nervous system, which is what you're, I feel like it's really linked to the cortisol issue, like the high stress, because we're constantly being bombarded with too much information. Really, I think too much information that our nervous system is able to translate. And I think that takes a trickle down effect into our bodies. I'm very big on like mind body because of that, you know, like that, that's one aspect, but of course, I mean, there's so many

Caryn Johnson (26:02)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Michelle (26:16)

Like I said, it's like a web and every single piece matters. And that's what you were talking about before with medicine, looking at the body as a whole, as a functioning system, rather than just one part.

Caryn Johnson (26:21)

you

Right, right. And just going back to your comment on cortisol, you know, a lot of it does start with cortisol because if you put yourself into too high of a cortisol state, your body doesn't produce enough hormones. It basically triggers all of your other hormones to act inappropriately. It goes into your progesterone receptor.

Michelle (27:00)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Caryn Johnson (27:00)

pretends it's progesterone and then it goes on your thyroid and says slow down, slow down. Your body doesn't have enough energy for this and your thyroid slows. So it's really like easy to dismiss like, yeah, I'm so stressed but I don't have to be stressed today and to understanding like if your body is in a constant state of stress, like the impact it can truly have on your system and on your hormones because

Michelle (27:27)

Mm-hmm.

Caryn Johnson (27:30)

I guess also people think of like cortisol is like over here and then estrogen and progesterone as like over here because they work through different axes of the body, right? But it's all related because if you knock one off, you're messing with the others. So I just, I wish people ultimately would understand that cortisol is a huge starting factor to their fertility journey as well.

Michelle (27:38)

Mm-hmm.

Right. Yes.

Caryn Johnson (27:57)

and to a hormone journey if they're not on the road to fertility.

Michelle (28:02)

Yes, because ultimately the body's always going to favor survival. And when you're in high cortisol, your body's basically or something is signaling your body to let it know it's not safe. So when you're constantly in this state of feeling unsafe, your body's going to worry about other things and put off other factors that it would normally pay attention to when you do feel safe.

Caryn Johnson (28:08)

Yeah.

Right.

Michelle (28:32)

And being in this chronically is just not conducive to high vitality period.

Caryn Johnson (28:32)

Right.

Yeah, I feel like at least we're in a better state of mind, like as a world where, you know, 10 years ago it was chic and cool to be like chronically stressed and like drinking like three cups of coffee in the morning and like running yourself ragged. Like I feel like everyone understands a little bit more that they shouldn't. It's just about like knowing your body and actually being able to say to yourself like, no, this isn't how I should.

Michelle (28:52)

It's true. Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah.

Caryn Johnson (29:09)

be feeling. This isn't how I want to keep stress or maintain like my day-to-day life.

Michelle (29:17)

No doubt that we are getting educated like never before. like, it's, it's one of those things that when like the information comes out and we start to open our eyes, it's painful because we're realizing things that are not working. However, even though it's painful, it's actually helping us in the long run. And it's kind of like the, blessing and the curse of social media and all of the technology, but the blessing is information.

Caryn Johnson (29:28)

Right.

Yeah.

Michelle (29:45)

that is very important for us to know it's important for us to receive. So that aspect of it is really important. And then talk to us about your supplement product bond. And I know that you created that based on really your own frustration and it's become your baby. And I want to know what specifically or how does that address autoimmunity conditions for people who are going through that or?

Caryn Johnson (30:03)

Yeah.

Michelle (30:14)

least thinking maybe to look into their immunity in regards to their fertility, listening to this.

Caryn Johnson (30:21)

Yeah, absolutely. So I launched Bond just about a year ago. I concepted it. took a year prior to that from concept to launch.

So really it started in the world of advocacy for me. I was just really looking to help other women getting involved in some Facebook groups, some communities. you know, there's not a lot of knowledge, a lot of people talking about this yet. There certainly wasn't, you know, even just a few years ago. so I, I took a speaking opportunity in Detroit and

I went to Wayne State University, which is where they do a lot of the research for autoimmune infertility. the main head of that clinic asked me to come and speak to the researchers because they do all of this research and it's isolated into their facility. They don't actually see the impact of what's going on with women who are going through this.

Michelle (31:24)

Mm-hmm.

Caryn Johnson (31:25)

so I got to share my story and, you know, had a really nice day there learning and seeing their facility, their lab, what's going on. And on the drive home is really when it clicked for me that there's a lack of, or there's a gap in what's going on research wise and, know, what's being discussed and what's being carried out and brought to.

the consumer or the public's attention. And I just felt like if I didn't take a larger stand to do something bigger to help women, that we'd be many, many more years behind even. So I went back to my house in Chicago, sat in my basement and did just clinical research for months. And I logged over 300 clinical studies, all centered around

the immune system and how it relates to hormones to the reproductive system and built my thinking for original skews, which were, which are daily balance, which is our best seller conception boost, vitality, and cycle care on this thinking first. so it really started with research before it was brought forward to healthcare practitioners and then formulated out.

And a lot of the research that went into each of the products is above and beyond supporting the reproductive organs. So when you look at daily balance as a whole, it has 15 vitamins and nutrients in it. And a lot of those vitamins and nutrients were chosen to not only support hormone balance, but to take that up a level and to support the immune system as it relates to being a predecessor to hormone balance. So

adding a vitamin D, which is a huge hormone regulator, putting fiber, five grams of it into a supplement so that women are potentially protecting their gut lining better and producing those short chain fatty acids that are going to protect their gut in a way that just probiotics don't. Adding in a probiotic blend that

we studied as being healthy strains, or not healthy strains, but strains from healthy fertile women. So really focusing on these immune factors and how they pull into the world of fertility. But to the public now, you know, almost simplifying that message and making it more of like the underlying theme because we're still not necessarily totally there.

so the ingredients exists in these formulas with so much thinking and thought as it relates to the whole body. and then the formulas come out and, they're focused on hormone balance, right? As well as we have a conception product, and then we have our cycle care product, which is focused on, PMS support. So PMS, symptom alleviation, and then hormone detoxification.

Michelle (34:16)

Mm-hmm.

Caryn Johnson (34:44)

So they all have an immune angle, also address a hormonal need. 

And the other great thing too is that you can shop at a discount as a special thanks for listening to us here. You can head over to the link. We'll link it here with this podcast episode and use the code, the wholesome to get 20 % off your order.

Michelle (34:54)

Awesome. And do you have information on your site, just like support for people wanting to learn more?

Caryn Johnson (35:00)

Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely. we're starting to add more and more to our site. I wrote a white paper on how the microbiome affects fertility that you can download off of our website as well to get more information. And yeah, we share a lot on social too with, you know, article connections there. So that's another great way to keep up with kind of like up and coming research that we're seeing.

Michelle (35:32)

Mm-hmm.

Caryn Johnson (35:33)

But yeah, I would say too, just going back to one other thing you mentioned earlier on the, on the doctor front, the best thing to do as a consumer, like when you're hitting these issues is to bring the articles in and show them to your doctor and choose advocacy for yourself. Because I found that the response from them is far greater when you have data in your hands as to why you want to.

Michelle (35:51)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Caryn Johnson (36:03)

add a supplement, think about a different form of medication, think about a different program that might make sense for your system. So I would say, you know, that is as important as ever. And, you know, what we try to do more and more is link that PIMD article, like when we post something so that you can find the actual source and see for yourself, you know?

Michelle (36:24)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Caryn Johnson (36:31)

read the information and make smart decisions.

Michelle (36:31)

Mm-hmm.

I love that. That's great. I'm all about empowerment. think that we need a lot of that now. So this is great information. I really appreciate you sharing your story for people listening. And for people who want to find you and learn more, how can they find you?

Caryn Johnson (36:41)

Yeah.

Thank

Sure, so our website is bond.life. Our Instagram is underscore bond life and we're, you know, a newer company. I'm still really involved on our social. So we love to take DMs and interact with people one-on-one that way. If you have any questions or want to get into, you know, what you might be experiencing and what our different products are, like we're happy to get into it with you and.

I will say for anyone that wants to shop on bond on our website, absolutely love to support you. And again, really the place to start with, with us is our daily balance product. has the baseline of nutritionals you need to support your

nutrients stores, your hormonal balance, and of course, your immune system. that is our purple bag on the website there. But Michelle, thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate this opportunity.

Michelle (37:57)

Yeah, it was great having you on and having this conversation, which I feel like is so important because it is kind of like the big question mark that a lot of people are facing when they're trying to conceive. So thank you so much for coming on.

Caryn Johnson (38:09)

Yeah, you're welcome.

EP 312 A Holistic Approach to Fertility | Sonia Ribas

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, Sonia Ribas @soniaribascoach shares her journey from a marketing executive to a fertility coach, emphasizing the importance of holistic approaches to fertility. She discusses common challenges faced by individuals trying to conceive, the often unnecessary reliance on IVF, and the critical role of personalized treatment plans. Sonia highlights the impact of oxidative stress on fertility and the significance of mindfulness and community support in the fertility journey. Her insights aim to empower individuals and couples navigating the complexities of fertility.

Takeaways

• Sonia transitioned from a marketing executive to a fertility coach after discovering her passion for holistic health.

• Many individuals seek help too late in their fertility journey, often after failed IVF attempts.

• Statistically, 50% of IVF cases may not be necessary, highlighting the need for proper preparation.

• A holistic approach to fertility considers physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual factors.

• Oxidative stress negatively impacts egg and sperm quality, making lifestyle changes essential.

• Personalization in treatment is crucial; what works for one person may not work for another.

• Mindfulness practices can help manage stress, which can be harmful to fertility health.

• Community support is vital; many women feel isolated in their fertility struggles.

• Education and actionable steps are key components of effective fertility coaching.

Guest Bio:

Sonia Ribas, MBA, HHC, RYT

Sonia is a sought-after LA based Fertility Coach and a Mom of 3. In her last 15+ years, she has successfully coached thousands of couples struggling to conceive. Her highly personalized, transformational and integrative lifestyle-based approach, which covers everything from nutrition to wellbeing, makes her an expert guide in her clients’ path towards Parenthood. She helps couples 1on1, in groups and in collaboration with Fertility Clinics around the world, in order to help patients boost their fertility from every possible angle and maximize their chance of conceiving, both naturally and via IVF.

Besides helping couples conceive healthy babies, she is a wellness educator and extremely passionate about inspiring people around the world to lead healthy lifestyles. She constantly collaborates with International lifestyle media outlets and companies as a consultant, speaker, educator and expert Health Coach. 

You can find her at soniaribas.com and on Social Media @soniaribascoach.

For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

Transcript:

Michelle (00:00)

Welcome to the podcast, Sonia.

Sonia Ribas (00:02)

Thank you so much, Michelle.

Michelle (00:04)

Yes, I would love for you to share your story of how you got into this work that you do.

Sonia Ribas (00:11)

Okay. Yeah, let's go for it. So I always say, sometimes you find things in life. Sometimes things find you. In my case, fertility found me. So in my previous life, as I like to call it, I was marketing executive and director for multinationals. And then I found yoga and I fell in love with hot yoga at the time to the point that I left my job and I went travel the world.

and I created one of the first online yoga studios in the world. And as I was doing that, yeah. And I was, was doing that occasionally. I was also teaching private sessions and, I was living in Boston at that time and I had a client who was originally from India and she was my yoga student and she was great. And then she was relocated back to India. And then she called me and she said,

Michelle (00:45)

cool.

Sonia Ribas (01:06)

Hey, my OBGYN says I'm not going to be able to have children and I'm devastated. And I was like, wow. And she said, you're the only person I trust. And I was like, well, wait a second. Like I'm not a fertility person, you know? Like I'm into healthy lifestyle. I'm a yoga instructor. I know a thing or two about these things because I follow it, but not fertility. And she said, Sonia, you're the only person I trust. So.

Michelle (01:32)

Wow.

Sonia Ribas (01:33)

This is 15 years ago. So I teamed up with my mother, who's a traditional Chinese doctor in Spain. And we teamed up together and we put together a holistic program. That was the very, very first version of what I do today. And, you know, we created meditation videos, yoga videos, lots of herbs, supplements, diet, lots of mindset tools and things like that. Things that we were coming up with. And I did a lot of research as well.

to understand, you know, I'm a research nerd, so to understand what works, what's proven, et cetera. So we created the first version for her and her labs improved a lot and she got pregnant naturally. So her OBGYN in India started referring people my way.

Michelle (02:16)

All right.

Sonia Ribas (02:22)

So yeah, the rest is history. So I started informally doing fertility coaching without being certified. My mom was helping me, but at some point my mom said, you know, I have a full practice in Spain. I think it's time for you to go on your own. So this was 15 years ago. So obviously fast forward, I got certified. I became a health coach and I got a lot of certificates in medicine and women's health and a lot more. And then

I started practicing fertility coaching 15 years ago, then I had three kids of my own. So I perfected my method with obviously my own experience. And yeah, by now we've helped make more than a thousand babies.

Michelle (03:08)

Amazing, that's incredible. So cool.

So what are some of the common things that you see when people come to you for fertility? Like some of the common stories that people share on their journey I know that's a big question, but whatever comes first.

Sonia Ribas (03:27)

Totally. So what I wish I would see, first I'm going to tell you what I wish and then the reality is, because sometimes it helps understand what I wish I would see is I wish I would see more people come earlier. So I always use the analogy of a wedding, know, the same way as you prepare for a wedding. And if you think I'm going to get married, you don't just show up in your sweatpants at your wedding, right? You prepare, you get a dress, you prepare a set, you know, you get the whole thing going.

Michelle (03:41)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Sonia Ribas (03:57)

I wish it would be the same for having a baby because there's a lot of things that we would prepare in advance. There wouldn't be so many headaches and so many heartaches. Now, the reality is that I see people when they're on the desperate side, when they've been trying for a while and it has the journeys longer than they anticipated or when they've been told IBF is their only option.

Michelle (04:14)

Mm-hmm.

Sonia Ribas (04:23)

or even worse when they've tried IVF or IUI and it didn't work and then they come to me as a better alternative, more empowered version to get pregnant.

Michelle (04:35)

And you say you had mentioned that you think that many times in many cases, people don't really need IVF. What has your experience been with that?

Sonia Ribas (04:46)

So statistically, 50 % of IVF cases are not needed. So that right there tells you what happens, right? So a lot of people are thrown into IVF because that's the nature of the Western medical approach to fertility. In some cases, it works. In many cases, it doesn't work. And when it doesn't work, most of the times it's because the person was unprepared or the couple was unprepared or because it was not needed.

So I always say, I always use the analogy of a car. So if your car doesn't work, what do you do? You take it to the mechanic and the mechanic tries to jumpstart the battery. So that's IVF. IVF is jumpstarting your system. You might or might not be ready for it. It might or it might not work, but the process is very expensive, very invasive, and it has side effects potentially for the rest of your life. So it's not something to take lightly.

Michelle (05:19)

Mm-hmm.

Sonia Ribas (05:42)

It's not like, hey, I'm going to get my whatever. It's not like I'm going to get my teeth cleaned. No, it's an invasive thing. So what I say is going back to the analogy of the car, if your car doesn't work, you can take it to the mechanic, you can open the motor and have a look. Clean whatever needs to be cleaned, repair whatever needs to be repaired so that when you try to switch it on, it will switch on without being jump-started. It will switch on natural.

So this is what we do here. And I always say to people, hey, if down the line, it hasn't happened naturally and you want to continue trying IVF, by that time you'll be ready. Look, I always go back to statistics. IVF without preparation is about a 20 % success rate. IVF with the proper preparation and optimizing your system is an 85 % success rate. So if you're going to throw yourself into this process,

At least prepare yourself so you can optimize your chances of success.

Michelle (06:46)

And what are some of the things that you see that people need when they come to you? Like, What are some of the more common things that you see?

Sonia Ribas (06:56)

So we here, we leave no stone unturned because everybody needs a combination of factors and everybody is really different. So for some people, it's more the physical side. For other people, it's more the mental, the past traumas, the blockages, the limiting beliefs energetically. So we leave no stone unturned. We cover everything from the physical layer, the mental, the emotional, the energetic, and the spiritual layer. So we have a holistic approach.

to fertility, which I love your podcast is wholesome because we use that word all the time as well.

Michelle (07:31)

Yes, for sure. mean, there's so many different layers. Some of the things that I personally see is a lot of people are given diagnosis and I guess in the journey, it's very easy to get a lot of limiting labels thrown at you. And I really say thrown at you. mean, I was one of them. had my own issues with my menstrual cycle.

growing up, but not realizing that I had other option. And I think that a lot of times is that people don't realize that they have options and they don't realize or aren't really told along the way, unless they find the right person, that there are alternatives and things that they could do to improve their state. I think that that was, that's the biggest hurdle is just really not even knowing anything else exists.

Sonia Ribas (08:25)

Absolutely. Yeah, so a lot of the things we do is education because people obviously you don't know and people go to Dr. Google, which is probably the last thing you should be doing because it's nerve-wracking. So we do a lot of education, but we step a lot into action. We're very, very action and results oriented. I always say to my clients, we are here for transformation. And if we are here for transformation, we need to combine information,

plus action. So everything we offer here is very, very action oriented, whether it's on the diet side and we roll up our sleeves and we create personalized diets for our clients. But also, for example, on the movement side, we give them a lot of tools. Like it's not just, go move and go exercise, but we give them a lot of exercise videos, yoga videos, strength training, like all the tools they can actually go and implement with real actionables.

Michelle (09:24)

And when you talked about percentage of improvement for IVF, if you're prepared versus not prepared, is that anything specific to your work or something that you've seen? How do you base that?

Sonia Ribas (09:38)

No. Yeah. So that's kind of like statistics that we draw in our practice. mean, the fact that IVF is around a 20 % success rate is known. That's not something that I've decided. That's something that's published. Obviously, it depends on the age brackets and all that, but we can call it an average. And then what I see is I have a lot of people who've tried IVF, and they come my way after a number of failed rounds of IVF.

Michelle (09:43)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Sonia Ribas (10:06)

And then we can draw statistics of like, from these people, how many people then have a successful IVF after? And it's about 85%.

Michelle (10:13)

Yeah, that's awesome. it's good to know. I'm curious because I'm a little bit of a numbers nerd myself and I like to kind of get like data and I hearing just things even with like studies and so kind of jogged my curiosity. That's awesome and I agree. I do Chinese medicine. I also do fertility coaching, but ultimately,

Sonia Ribas (10:19)

Me too.

Michelle (10:35)

when you do make these changes in your lifestyle, you really can optimize a lot of your wellbeing, but it's almost like you're the way I see it is you're triggering an anti-aging because that's really what fertility is. It's kind of like anti-aging treatment. If you think about it, it's the same thing. It's just really optimizing your health, optimizing your mitochondria and your body's energy so that it's able to

Sonia Ribas (10:52)

Right? Yes.

Michelle (11:02)

produce, reproduce, but that's ultimately like turning back the clock, which we can actually do. something that you can actually do with lifestyle, which is why I find it so empowering in general. I find that a lot of people also feel that it's not just empowering for conceiving, but it's empowering as they get older as well.

Sonia Ribas (11:12)

Yes.

Yes, yes, exactly. So what we do here is reverse the effects of oxidative stress. So as you say, it's kind of like the anti-aging version of fertility.

Michelle (11:36)

And what are some of the things that you find or some of the ways you approach that just for people listening that are curious, like, cause some people know, you know, that that can impact equality as we age, oxidative stress gets higher, but some people might not, you know, it might be like new terms if they're just listening to this now and they're first starting this journey. so let's kind of break it down for the listeners if they're hearing this and why it's so impactful for

not just egg quality, but for sperm quality as well.

Sonia Ribas (12:09)

Yes, there's a massive difference though. obviously as you age, oxidative stress happens. It's the byproduct of being alive. It's funny because my dad always said, you know, when my dad drinks or something and I say, hey, dad, this kills you. He says, you know what? Living kills me. Being alive means that you are subject to the process of oxidative stress. Everybody's subject to that. Now there's a difference between egg and sperm. Eggs,

Michelle (12:27)

Mm-hmm.

Sonia Ribas (12:38)

You are born with your set of eggs. I cannot take out your eggs and replace them. They are there. We can do a lot of things to optimize their functioning, optimize their quality. As you said, optimize the mitochondria and make them fitter and stronger and better working, but they're the same. Now, sperm on the other side is regenerated all the time. The sperm that's ejaculated today is not the sperm that will be ejaculated tomorrow or in three weeks.

That's why it's a lot easier. In my experience, it's a lot easier to improve sperm quality than egg quality. But we can work on both and we definitely have great success on both. But every time that I get a couple that have a combination of factors, I always look at the male and I say, okay, you're on the lucky side. If you do this program, I can guarantee for sure that your sperm will improve no matter what.

Michelle (13:39)

So let's talk about the egg quality and how oxidative stress impacts the egg quality and like what people can do, generally speaking to improve their quality of eggs.

Sonia Ribas (13:44)

Okay, yeah.

Okay, great. So how it impacts egg quality is, well, it's in a number of ways, but primarily two very strong ways. One of them is genetically. It affects the DNA structure of your cells, including the DNA structure of your eggs. So when your eggs produce embryos, it might be that the embryos are genetically not normal. So that's when we see genetic things happen, even not viable.

So that's one thing that happened. The other thing that is very visible that happens is that the mitochondria, which is the energy factories of the cells, get affected. So they're not as strong. This is why we recommend supplements like CoQ10, for example, to boost the functioning of the mitochondria. Now, what do we do holistically in this program to optimize that quality? It's one of my favorite topics in the world. Thanks for asking me that. So it's a holistic approach.

We boost fertility, we boost equality from every possible angle, everything lifestyle-based and everything is research-based here. So everything we offer here has been proven at some point by research papers. So we work on 15 factors. So my program is 15 modules plus a bonus module, that's male factor. So for 15 modules, we deep dive into 15 areas of your lifestyle.

that need to be optimized because they're strictly related to fertility. So if you optimize those areas of your lifestyle, you are boosting your fertility and your egg quality no matter what. And those are, there's a physical layer, there's a mental layer, emotional layer, energetic layer, and spiritual layer. So we combine things like diet, hydration, supplements, weight management, movement. We talk about inner dialogue, emotions.

cortisol, stress, everything that happens related to your stress hormones, sleep patterns, circadian rhythms, your relationships, your toxic relationships, your conflict, your libido, your sex drive, your relationship, your connection to your partner, environmental toxins, empowerment, your connection to your inner power, limiting beliefs, empowering self-affirmations, meditations, cycle syncing. also do

sit cycling, and then connecting to your group. So I think it's very important. And that's something we never talk about, which is like, can throw a lot of things at you. But if we don't find your version of what I'm talking about, it's not going to work. So that's why it's very important, the concept of bio-individuality, which means a person's food is another person's poison. Right?

Michelle (16:34)

Yeah, it's true.

100%.

Sonia Ribas (16:45)

Everything needs to be personalized to you because we are here to deliver results for you, not for your neighbor. So what works for your neighbor and your cousin might be very different. Some people have night shifts. Some people have preferences on food. Some people have cravings. Some people turn to different things to deal with emotions. Some people have past trauma, most of us. Like all of this is very, very personal. So what I'm very fascinated about and obsessed about is

Michelle (16:53)

my god, so true.

Sonia Ribas (17:15)

How do we go in the trenches with our clients? How do we help them land all the recommendations into their real life so that we can truly move the needle for them?

Michelle (17:28)

Yeah, I love that. It's so true because that is something that I often see is, especially when they first come to us because they're like, you know, my best friend, she also struggled with fertility. She tried this herb and it helped her. And I wanted to try it too, or somebody else tried DHEA, which is a hormone and I want to try it too. And it is a hormone and it is something that I always recommend never take anything like that.

unless you get tested and see what's going on in your body. Because for one person, it could be amazing. It could be a game changer. But if your body has a completely different makeup and imbalance of hormones, it can actually be detrimental. So I'm really glad that you brought that up because everybody's so unique. literally are like, our bodies are like fingerprints. And I love that saying one man's food is another man's poison. It's 100 % true.

Like somebody can thrive, actually dairy has been shown to help with many women who are trying to conceive full fat. It's been shown in studies. I'm also a nerd with that. Like I love that because it's true. Like then you could see, okay, for the majority, yeah, it can actually be really beneficial. However, if you have a dairy sensitivity or an allergy or it causes more inflammation, or as in Chinese medicine, we look at like dampness.

which is an element, I'm sure your mom has taught you about that. Then if that's the case, that would not be great for that particular person. it's so important for people to realize that, yes, you listen to podcasts and you read about it and you go down like Dr. Google, as you said, and you can learn a lot of things. However, your body is so unique and your body needs a customized plan.

Sonia Ribas (19:03)

Thanks.

Yes, absolutely. And even a step further, your body today is different than your body in two weeks because you are a woman and you are in the waves of your menstrual cycle. So if you're ovulating today, you'll feel strong, you'll feel energetic, you'll feel social. And in two weeks, as you're about to menstruate, you'll feel like a completely different person.

Michelle (19:33)

Yes, that's true.

Sonia Ribas (19:52)

And that's something I like to talk about because I get a lot of men kind of like asking me how true this is, how is PMS real? Is she making it up? you know, they just, because they're flat, they don't understand the fluctuations of hormones. And I do a lot of education on that, on cycle syncing, how this is real and how life is a lot easier if you serve the waves of your cycle.

instead of fighting it or instead of just acting as if it doesn't exist.

Michelle (20:24)

Totally. I call that just kind of personal flow. In Chinese medicine, we do a lot of like physical flow with the meridians and our qi. But when we have flow in our life, that's really what it looks like. It's really understanding, not fighting, kind of going with that, riding those waves. So yeah, I totally agree.

Awesome. And so what are some of the, love talking also about the mind and how stress can impact our bodies. I understand this from a Chinese medicine perspective. I also, we know that when we're in fight or flight, basically the energy rich blood rich areas are going to be our arms and legs or limbs so that we can either fight or run. And it takes it away from our vital organs and including the uterus. So

let's talk about that. Let's talk about how stress can impact fertility and why it's so important to address that aspect of ourselves.

Sonia Ribas (21:27)

Okay. I love, this is one of my favorite topics. So when it comes to stress, I always say there's two kinds of stress. There's useful stress and there's chronic stress, which is not useful. So stress is a natural response and it's actually very useful response to danger and to situations in life that need for you to be pumped with certain hormones called disall adrenaline to react.

Like if there's a lion about to chase me, I need to experience stress so that I can react and save my life, right? I need to run or hide or something, right? So that's useful. And in certain situations in life, that's very useful. Now we have in our modern society normalized a stressful feeling to the point that because we have deadlines, have infertility problems, we have a lot of things going on.

Our body is constantly in alert as if a lion's about to chase me every five minutes. So that's called chronic stress and that is highly inflammatory. So if you feel you're having that, which you probably are because we pretty much all have that, you need to find ways to release that cortisol. You know, because otherwise we have what we call a cortisol intoxication or a cortisol overload.

And cortisol is highly inflammatory, even excess. So you need to find ways to release it. And this is where we step into action. So for me, for example, I need to go workout to release stress. If I don't move, I can meditate and things like that, but it's not going to be the same as sweating it out. So I do hot yoga. Hot yoga is my thing. Right. For other people, it's different, you know, there's a lot of different ways. So.

Michelle (23:10)

I love hot yoga. Yeah.

Sonia Ribas (23:19)

If workout works for you, great. Meditation also works for a lot of people. And if you're not meditating, I get a lot of people tell me, that's not for me. Give it a chance because meditation does not need to be a full hour in Tibet. It can be 10 minutes, five minutes sitting on your bed and just like focus on your breath, diaphragmatic breathing. As you inhale, expand your belly.

As you exhale, you contract your belly and you connect to your breath. And that in itself sends your brain signal of, am safe. And you can activate your parasympathetic nervous system, which is the rest and digest. And that's where your reproductive function thrives. If, however, you're activating your sympathetic nervous system, which is your fight or flight, then your reproductive function won't be favorized.

Michelle (24:05)

Yes.

Sonia Ribas (24:13)

because your body will only favorize the functions that are essential for survival.

Michelle (24:19)

Absolutely.

Sonia Ribas (24:20)

So another way that I always tell people to activate your parasympathetic nervous system, so to release stress, is hugging. Hugging, a long hug, also does that. Also sends that signal to your brain of, am safe, I escaped the lion, everything's good. So that also works really well. And also hot and cold therapy.

So if you're stressed and you're like, my God, I don't know what to do with myself, go take a cold shower or a hot shower or combine both or take ice water or make yourself a hot tea. Like hot and cold therapy are very good as a way to release cortisol as well.

Michelle (25:06)

Interesting. Yeah. mean, there's the cold plunges. There's I'm trying to look into that as far as fertility goes. Possibly might be good for men, but I'm not sure about women quite yet. Trying to do the research on that, but I do agree. Maybe it's kind of like that initial kind of shift from one state to another that sort of breaks up the stagnation.

Sonia Ribas (25:29)

Yeah, it's the shocker. I knew you're going to say that because obviously in the traditional Chinese medicine, we don't want to be cold. And I grew up this way. You always want to be on the warmer side. I remember when my mom did her internship in Beijing, it was super hot, like 110 degrees. And everybody was drinking hot tea 24-7. And she was calling me like, I don't know if I can do this, like, hot tea.

Michelle (25:31)

It's a shock, yeah.

Yes.

Yeah.

Sonia Ribas (26:00)

But yeah, I know very well that that's a tradition. I grew up with that. And for me, cold water is a problem too. But what I do is I shock my system and I do hot, cold, hot, cold, and I always end with hot because I cannot walk out of my shower feeling cold. But I do think shocker.

Michelle (26:17)

Yes, and also the shower is not as extreme as some of these cold plunges.

Sonia Ribas (26:22)

That's true. That's true. Yeah, I do think the combination though is very, very interesting. But as we said, hey, bio individual.

Michelle (26:28)

Right. It's like the yin and yang. We're kind of forcing a yin and yang balance in some way. Yeah.

Sonia Ribas (26:33)

Exactly. Yeah. And also, you know, try it out. Like I always say to people, don't take my word for anything. Everything we talk about, try it out for yourself and see it in your own body, how it feels. Find your own version.

Michelle (26:44)

Yeah, that's right. Totally. And I think that our bodies are just so intelligent and we're made of this intelligence and it always speaks to us. It speaks to us with food. It will guide you if you're really connecting with it, which is why I love meditation so much because it really brings us an awareness to that communication. It bridges, it almost like builds this neuron, this connection between us and our bodies.

that maybe we've ignored for so long and sort of forgot really was there. That's why I love mindfulness. But also what I love about really becoming mindful and meditation is it teaches us to become aware of our body. we can catch ourselves if we're getting too stressed out about certain things, we can catch ourselves and realize, hey, I'm not actually in danger right now.

and of realize that, and that mindfulness is what is kind of on guard to check, you know, your situation.

Sonia Ribas (27:50)

Absolutely. I love that you're saying that. I love mindfulness. In my program, we call it heartfulness, actually, because it's all the mindfulness principles of being aware of what you're doing, of your surroundings, being very much there. But I call it heartfulness because I like to shift the focus from here, because we spend so much time here, to here. How does it feel? How does it feel to be here now?

Michelle (27:56)

Ooh, I love that.

Yes.

Sonia Ribas (28:19)

Okay, you're noticing everything, mindfulness and the added touch of the heart, the feeling, the savoring. I feel we need more savoring and we need to be more connected to that concept of savoring in life. And that's one of the things that I preach all the time.

Michelle (28:38)

I love that because it's almost like bringing romance back into life, right? Cause it's like those moments, just savoring those moments and bringing more romance, which really, does that do? It's like infusing meaning into the moment. And there's more meaning, there's more richness. And if you think about just kind of how we used to live, I think of like, I don't know, a street in Paris where people are just sitting a lot longer to talk and eat and take their time and really tasting everything.

Sonia Ribas (28:42)

I love that. Yeah, totally.

Michelle (29:05)

I think that when you're doing that, you're really infusing kind of that chi life force energy into your moments in life, which ultimately I think impact your body.

Sonia Ribas (29:16)

Yes, and fertility is about that. Fertility, a concept for me of fertility, the essence of boosting fertility is adding that boost of life into your life. More grace, more flow, more enjoying, more savoring, more being here, more embracing, empowering yourself.

Michelle (29:29)

I love that.

Yeah, I love that. That's so true. mean, really, ultimately that's it's just a richness. It's kind of like living in an energy rich state, which ultimately, mean, that's it's kind of like just energy being really efficient and thriving through your body. And that's when your cup overflows, you're able to bring more life forth. And that's yeah. Also, I think that also when you're working in this work,

You start to see patterns and you start to see how clearly what's crazy about it is that in order to reproduce, we need all this energy, but like the fertility journey on its own can be so taxing and draining, which is why it's important to have somebody who understands it to guide you and to help you with that ultimately. And, or even a community or friends or connecting with others going through it, because I think that helps as well.

having that sense of support.

Sonia Ribas (30:37)

Absolutely. Absolutely. You don't need to go through this alone. I think that some things in life are meant for you to do alone, some things are not. And fertility is definitely not one of them. I am always shocked when I read statistics that about 63 % of women with fertility problems never talk about it with anyone. It totally breaks my heart.

Michelle (30:47)

Yeah.

That's sad. Yeah. see it too. mean, people, when they first come to my office, they're like, they feel so relieved. They're like, I can't really talk about this. Even with my husband sometimes, I'll say.

Sonia Ribas (31:09)

Totally. Yeah, totally. They're so scared of ruining their marriage if they talk about it. And in my program, we combine private coaching with group coaching. And I have a lot of people at the beginning of the program who are unsure about the group coaching at the beginning. And they're like, I'm not sure, you know, it's kind of private. Then they give it a go. And then by the end of the program, when they give me feedbacks, I always ask for feedback at the end. They say, my God, the group sessions were the best. It's a group.

They call it a mouth hug. And feeling seen, feeling validated by women who are in the same season in life is so, so therapeutic.

Michelle (31:39)

Yes. Yeah.

my God, yes, I've seen the same thing and I've seen people in the programs connecting and having lifelong relationships because afterwards I'll find out they're still in touch and it's amazing. Yeah, it's really, and I think that also we're meant to meet the right people at the right time, even people going through the same journey and they become really like lifelong friends.

Sonia Ribas (31:59)

I think.

Exactly, exactly. Those people were meant to cross paths and to continue some journeys together. Absolutely.

Michelle (32:19)

Yes, awesome. So if somebody's hearing this, is there like a word or a sentence or some kind of inspiring tip that you can provide? Somebody's going through it right now, going through the fertility journey and obviously going through the struggles that we all know are very real.

Sonia Ribas (32:37)

Yes. So I think that my summary for today is you don't need to do this alone, especially this week. I'm very sensitive to this because I've seen a lot of people who have chosen to do this on their own and to continue struggling on their own. it totally breaks my heart. So in terms of your chances of success, in terms of how enjoyable this will be in terms of your own journey and your own experience, don't you ever think you need to do this alone? You know, there's help out there that can make it so much better for you.

and embrace it.

Michelle (33:10)

Awesome. And so if people are hearing this and they want to find out more about you, how can they find you?

Sonia Ribas (33:16)

Okay. So the two ways, easier ways to find me is my website, sonyarebus.com and my Instagram page, which is Sonia rebus coach.

Michelle (33:27)

Awesome. So Sonia, thank you so much for coming on. I have all your information on the episode notes if anybody wants to find it. And this is a great conversation. I love that you're really into empowering couples. And ultimately, I think that that is so needed in this world. So thank you so much for coming on today.

Sonia Ribas (33:50)

Thanks for having me, Michelle.

EP 311 Could This One Thing be Harming Your Chances of Conception?

Welcome to The Wholesome Fertility Podcast! Today, I'm addressing an important topic that has come up frequently in my office: fertility-friendly lubricants. Many people don’t realize that certain lubricants can negatively affect sperm movement and reduce the chances of conception.

In this episode, I discuss the common issue of vaginal dryness, especially when using fertility medications like Clomid or Letrozole, and how this can be an added challenge for those trying to conceive. I also explore natural ways to boost cervical mucus production, including staying hydrated and making dietary adjustments to improve moisture levels in the body.

Additionally, I’ll be highlighting fertility-friendly lubricant brands such as Pre-Seed and Good Clean Love, and why choosing products that mimic natural cervical mucus is so crucial. 

If you’re trying to conceive, this information will help you optimize your chances and ensure you’re not unknowingly using something that could hinder your fertility.

Takeaways:

• Avoid harmful lubricants: Most standard lubricants can be toxic to sperm or slow their movement, which can impact conception.

• Natural cervical mucus is ideal: Keeping hydrated and consuming foods rich in omega-3s and antioxidants like vitamin C can help increase your body’s natural moisture levels.

• Fertility-friendly lubricants to consider: Products like Pre-Seed, Good Clean Love, and Premom are formulated to be sperm-friendly and closely mimic natural cervical mucus.

• Vaginal dryness and medications: Fertility medications such as Clomid and Letrozole may cause dryness, making it important to find safe solutions that support sperm health.

Check out Michelle’s latest book here: https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

Transcript:

[00:00:00] Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. Today I'm going to be talking about something that I have not talked about yet, but it is an important topic because I've had a lot of people in my office come in and

ask me about the specific topic. And a lot of times it is very important when it comes to fertility because People often don't realize that there are certain things that can actually be harming your fertility. So stay tuned because you're not going to want to miss this. So today I'm going to be talking about lubricants. This is actually a very common thing that people use lubricants and they don't realize that the majority of lubricants are actually not great for sperm. They're either toxic for sperm or they can impact how the sperm travels and slow down the traveling and fertilization of the egg.

[00:01:00] So when it comes to fertility. It's a completely different ballgame, and it's really important to choose lubricants, if necessary, that are sperm friendly. So today I will be talking all about that.

So first of all, I wanted to start out by saying, talking about why women can be dry, and sometimes it really is a cervical mucus thing, and And where it comes to cervical mucus, there are definitely things that you can do to impact cervical mucus naturally, but not just cervical mucus. It's also when taking certain fertility medications such as Clomid or Letrozole, those two medications can impact vaginal dryness as well.

And this can be extremely frustrating when people are trying to conceive and women are having to have the difficulty and discomfort of vaginal dryness. And at the same time also timed [00:02:00] intercourse. So it kind of puts a whole other challenge to the whole challenging situation to begin with.

So according to fertility and sterility, Vaginal dryness has actually been reported in about at least 46 percent of all reproductive aged women, which is actually really high considering. So this is really important because when it comes to baby making, it's really important that a woman feels comfortable because if a woman is dry, it can cause more irritation.

It can even cause bleeding. And we don't want that because when that's the case, then you're feeling more stress in really trying to conceive. So many times people will want to find lubricants and they'll find things that are over the counter or certain products that they don't realize are actually harming the sperm.

So they're using this and I've had people come in and say that they've dealt with it. the discomforts of vaginal dryness[00:03:00] and didn't really realize, but for the whole time they've been trying and sometimes it's close to a year they've been using lubricants that are not necessarily great for the sperm and didn't even realize it.

So this is why I find it so important in the podcast and in general to give information to people because many times nobody really tells you this stuff. You really think that, okay, what's the big deal? It shouldn't make a difference, but it really does. And the same thing also with figuring out the fertile window.

All of these things are typically not things that you learn, not in school and oftentimes not even at the doctor's office. So it is really important to understand your body and understand really like how to optimize your fertile window and how to optimize your chances of conceiving and what those certain things are that can impact.

that process.

So like mentioned before, [00:04:00] a lot of these lubricants can impact sperm movement and impact how sperm is able to fertilize. And this can obviously be an issue because the sperm needs something that's similar to the cervical mucus, which is why the cervical mucus is so important because it It protects the sperm, but it also is created in a beautiful way to allow the sperm to move as fast as possible and most efficiently so that it is able to get to the egg and fertilize for conception.

Another thing that you want to look at is pH levels and if there's any chemicals in the lubricants that are harmful to sperm.

So, ideally, you really want your own body's natural lubricant, which is cervical mucus. And there are a couple of things that you can do to improve that. And then I'll go over some other alternatives if that is not [00:05:00] working. But really what you want to do is increase your, in Chinese medicine speak, yin.

Estrogen is a really important hormone in that process during the follicular phase that leads up to ovulation because estrogen is a very yin hormone. Yin is an aspect of the yin and yang that is more moist, more cooling, more feminine. So we want to bring in more moisture and we want to make sure that the body holds in that moisture.

So there are definitely things that you can do to improve that and the first thing and it's the most obvious thing and I've seen it be the single handedly like the easiest way for people to improve cervical mucus is hydration. You would be shocked At how important it is to just hydrate because cervical mucus is majority is water.

It really consists of water. And so if somebody is dehydrated and I've had a lot of people in the healthcare industry[00:06:00] that come in as patients, they just say they don't have time to drink. And I really push them on this because eventually they can actually shift that. It's just easier not to drink. So it's not that you can't drink.

It's just that it. Tends to be easier and then it becomes a bad habit. So a lot of these people that are nurses, a lot of people that are dentists that are in the healthcare field don't really feel like they have an option. I work with them on that and they do change that. So it is possible. Anything's possible.

It's just a matter of putting a little more effort to get in the habit. We're just have water with you to just ensure that you're having it and also having water in the morning. , listen, you know, it might be a little inconvenient to have to go to the bathroom a couple of times extra, but it is really important and it really can impact your cervical mucus in a huge way.

I've had people that have noticed vaginal dryness and that they've also had many times where [00:07:00]they were not seeing the same kind of cervical mucus that they used to see when they were younger. And all they did was increase the hydration. and that within a couple of months really shifted things and they started to see it.

They actually saw when they wiped that they had more cervical mucus and more like egg white consistency on the peak days. So that is actually a very easy way to do this. And as a rule of thumb, you want to take whatever your weight is in pounds, take that number, divide that in half, and that amount in ounces is what you want you know, to drink every day. So say you're 120 pounds. So divide that by half, that's 60. So you take 60 ounces per day is the rule of thumb of water. And ideally you have that in containers that are not plastic. So either glass or stainless steel. And then also make sure to filter that [00:08:00] water. So you know, just kind of a side note, I always talk about that with my patients.

So that's really, really important is to increase hydration and part of hydration also is not just water is from time to time to make sure that you're getting electrolytes as well.

You also want healthy carbohydrates. So carbohydrates can also help and carbs can help the yin aspect of our body. So it helps your body absorb and , keep itself hydrated. So that you're able to retain a little bit more water because that water is important to retain in order to hydrate your body in many different ways, including cervical mucus. Another really important vitamin that impacts cervical mucus is actually vitamin C. And you can also increase citrus fruits in your diet. This is something that has been shown to improve. cervical mucus. So these are things that you want to do naturally. Ideally, if you could do things naturally, then you're using your own body's [00:09:00] natural lubricant, which is optimized for sperm health and to protect sperm and to help the chances of conception.

So ideally you want to try to get it where your body's doing this.

Another important antioxidant is vitamin E as well. And that can help regulate estrogen in your body.

You also want to get foods that are rich in omega 3s. Omega 3 fatty acids are really great for cervical mucus. And if you think about it, just oils in general, healthy oils. So, things like coconut oil that you're taking internally. I know some people use it physically, like as lubricant. I'm not a huge fan, but, Take things oils internally because when you're increasing those oils, which are very Yin substances, you're also improving your own body's ability to moisten itself.

And you can also get, , those oils through nuts and [00:10:00] seeds, which are very rich in what we call in Chinese medicine, Jing. Jing is really fertile essence. It's really essence of the body. Okay. And if you think about seeds or nuts, they're basically seeds ready to sprout, which is ultimately like what egg and sperm are.

So they're fertile, they're fertile by nature, and they have everything that they need and all the resources within it's the seed in order to fertilize and become fertile. So you want things in nature to borrow from so that it improves your own ability to fertilize as well, which of course is conception.

So, here are things to consider if you were to buy fertility friendly lubricants. So, you want to find something that's water based so that it doesn't decrease sperm motility 

because that would be the most similar consistency to natural cervical mucus. You also want lubricants that are free[00:11:00] from parabens, fragrances, or any kind of chemicals, and ultimately to be the closest mimicking of natural cervical mucus.

 And here are some brands that are the most fertility friendly. And the first one is precede fertility lubricant. You'll see that very often it's available on Amazon, many different places. And then also good clean love biogenesis fertility lubricant. Another one is conceived plus fertility lubricant.

And there's also Nautilus, the lube lubricant. And there are many different ones that you'll see. You'll also see Lola, fertility friendly lube, penchant organic. So these are things that you want to definitely look up and make sure that it says fertility friendly. And I always recommend just do your own research and really look into it.

Look at the [00:12:00] reviews and find what you think is best for you but ultimately, like I said before, the best thing that you can do is try to get your own natural lubricants going, especially during the fertile window. If you have that a little bit more than, And I also recommend having sex outside of the fertile window.

I often recommend that. And in that case, you don't have to worry quite as much. I still would use natural ones though, personally, because also when your body receives the sperm outside of the fertile window, then it will, lower its immunity so that you are able to receive the sperm because it's considered like an invader through the body.

So you're able to really lower the immune system, which typically would happen in the second part of the menstrual cycle, which is the luteal phase that you're able to receive the sperm. So the more access your body has, or the more interaction it has with a [00:13:00] sperm, even if it's outside of the fertile window into the luteal phase, the more it becomes open to receiving it. And another plus for that is just really being able to connect outside of the fertile windows so that there's no timing on it. And it really is something that you can put towards your relationship with your partner so you can have that connection. And ultimately that is such an important part of the whole process because I know so many people tell me.

And express how difficult it is to have to. put the pressure of timing and when they could do it. And when you open it up to more of a larger window outside of it, there's less added pressure and there's more time for connection. And as I mentioned this in my book, the way of fertility, which I highly recommend you check out because a lot of the things that I talk about are [00:14:00] all bundled up in there described perfectly because I repeat myself a lot.

And this is one of the reasons I wrote the book is because I wanted to put all of my ideas and thoughts and all of my findings and lots of the information that I got from, , ancient wisdom and really the basis of Chinese medicine into a book where you can find it with exercises. But I talk about the connection between the partners and really having that connection because when you do have that connection and you really feel turned on, you will naturally also produce more natural lubricant.

So those are natural processes of the body, but it all starts with the mind. So a lot of it really starts psychologically and it's It's about connecting, opening the heart. So I talk a lot about that in the book. You can look at the episode notes to find out more on how to get that. And I will also list these fertility friendly lubricants that I mentioned in the episode[00:15:00] notes.

And you can always reach out to me. on Instagram. I'm always there and my handle is at the wholesome Lotus fertility. If you have any questions you want to reach out, you can find me there. So thank you so much for tuning in today and I hope you have a beautiful day. 

EP 310 Spirit Babies and the Circle of Life & Death | Ylette Luis

In our conversation, Ylette shares her unique journey through motherhood, her connection with spirit babies, and the importance of intuition in the process of conception. She discusses her experiences with pregnancy, loss, and healing, emphasizing that these moments can also offer sacred element. Ylette also highlights the significance of community and support for women navigating their own journeys, encouraging them to trust their intuition and embrace their power.

Takeaways

• Intuition plays a crucial role in understanding and connecting with spirit babies.

• Healing from past trauma is essential for creating a nurturing environment for new life.

• The experience of loss can be both painful and sacred, offering profound lessons.

• Surrendering to the process of conception can lead to unexpected outcomes.

• Building a supportive community is vital for women on their fertility journey.

• Trusting one's intuition is key to navigating the complexities of trying to conceive.

• Healing is a layered process that requires ongoing self-reflection and care.

• Nurturing oneself is essential for preparing to nurture a child.

Guest Bio:

Ylette is the visionary behind Xio by Ylette, a jewelry business that draws inspiration from her Latin roots and the enchanting magic of the cosmos. As an intuitive guide, she empowers women to reclaim their voices and rediscover their inner magic, allowing their light to shine brightly and illuminate the world. Ylette holds a heartfelt belief that when we do what sets our soul on fire & let that light sparkle, we inspire the entire world to glow in harmony.

Passionate about motherhood, Ylette is devoted to helping mothers become their best selves, fostering love and nurturing for their children who will become the shining legacy of the future. Through her Mystic Mama Collective membership, Ylette holds space for mothers and women committed to walking the path, emphasizing the importance of balancing our human and soul aspects. This balance, she believes, helps us find the magic in the mundane and better navigate the journey with purpose. Through her whimsical approach and profound wisdom, Ylette weaves a tapestry of light, love, and magic, touching the lives of women and children alike.

Social Media:

Instagram: @ylette_

Check out Michelle’s latest book here: https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

Transcript:

Michelle (00:00)

Welcome to the podcast, Ylette

Ylette (00:02)

Hi, hello, I am so excited to be here. Thank you for inviting me and having me on.

Michelle (00:07)

Yes. So I have, we follow each other on Instagram. I watch your Instagram and I really love it. I loved your energy. And I was like, I really liked this girl. Like I got to have her come on. And you also, I knew that you were like working with spirit babies and I was like, my gosh, I really, really jive with her energy. So I'm so happy to have you on here. And I would love for you to introduce yourself and give us a little bit of a background and how you got inspired to do the work that you do.

Ylette (00:37)

Hi, so my name is Ile

I got pregnant at 24 years old, had my daughter at 24, then turned 25. And I want to talk a little bit about that story because it is a big part of what shaped me into who I am today and connecting with spirit babies along the way. But I currently channel spirit babies. I am an intuitive. I study astrology, something that came very easy to me. I feel like when I went to school, I was that kid that barely retained anything. I mean, I could memorize something and throw it on a paper. So I always had good grades.

but I feel like none of it really made sense to me and I didn't retain much. I did get a master's in psychology. I am currently by day a school counselor. And then I say a school counselor by day, I read the stars and connect with the cosmic energies by night and juggling mom life. But it wasn't until I found astrology that I felt like, whoa, I am home because it came so easy to me. And it was so intuitive that the chart, I just opened it up and I feel like I was being led.

So I always say that I open someone's chart and the chart speaks to me. I don't do, your son is in this, your rising is in that. I'm like, we're gonna open up. We're gonna go wherever the chart leads me because I feel like astrology is so vast that if you start with just the surface level things, you can be there for hours. So I'm like, we're gonna go deep, Mercury and Scorpio, Scorpio, and we're gonna go deep right away. So that astrology really opens me up and strengthen my intuitive gifts.

Michelle (01:36)

That's cool.

Mm -hmm.

Ylette (02:05)

So that's what I'm doing now. I'm kind of like balancing both being a school and connecting with spirit babies and doing astrology readings on the side. But what started this whole journey is when I was 24

I got pregnant with my first daughter, Sophia, really young. I mean, I think young for me. And while I was pregnant with her, I had had before, because I did suffer when I was younger, some sexual trauma and abuse, and you know, the body holds on to all of that. And so I had, I remember I had gone in for a pap smear maybe like two years before I conceived my daughter, and I had some cancerous cells on my cervix.

Michelle (02:33)

Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Ylette (02:44)

So I had the procedure to get a leap and do and have, you know, a piece of my cervix removed and all of that. And so when I told the doctor, when I had gotten pregnant with Sophia, that I had that procedure, they were like, now all of a sudden he was a new doctor. You're high risk. We have to do a bunch of ultrasounds just to make sure that your cervix is okay and it's not opening. And so I was having a lot of ultrasounds. And when I went in for my, I believe 16 week ultrasound, there was a tech that measured the cervix and I was having different techs measure it and

What I found out later is that when different techs measure the cervix, they can get different numbers, so it's not really super accurate. So the tech was like, your cervix is super sure, and the doctor came in and he's all concerned, he's like, we're gonna have to do a cerclodge. So I imagine I was 24 years old at the time, I was so nervous, I wasn't confident, not in my power, I'm like, okay, you're the doctor, you know best.

Michelle (03:33)

So for people who aren't hearing this, when the cervix is really short, it could be considered like an which can cause miscarriage. And a cerclage is a way to keep it in place

Ylette (03:43)

Yes.

Right. So the stitching. So I was like, okay, let's do this. And even my mom had freaked me out because she's like, that happened to your grandma in Cuba. She lost a bunch of pregnancies because her cervix would open and they had to end up sewing her up. And that's how she had me. And then, you know, my brother and I was like, okay, well, I guess this is it. And my partner at that time was like, are you sure you don't want to think about this? And I was like, no, the doctor knows best. So let's just go. So I went in for the procedure.

I had it done the minute that I got out of surgery. I felt they had given me Tylenol coating. Now I know that it makes me throw up. So I don't take that anymore. But they had given it to me and I threw up. And when I threw up, guess I from the epidural, I urinated on myself and they thought that my water broke. So they were like, I was 18 weeks and they're like, your water, your water broke. We're going to do the like I think it's called the Fern test. They do to check if there's amniotic fluid.

Michelle (04:41)

Hmm?

Ylette (04:44)

until they did the test and it came back positive and they're like, for sure your water broke. Later I found out those can get false positives. So they were like, your water broke, we're gonna have to take the baby out right now. And I was like, what? And they're like, yeah, I'm so sorry. Like they didn't even hold me, they didn't allow any space for me to grieve or have all of these feelings. And I'm 24 years old just sitting there in the recovery room. My mom is next to me.

Michelle (05:00)

Wow, that's so crazy.

Ylette (05:10)

We get the news we're both freaked out. My mom instantly pulls out her Bible. She starts the up praying and I'm freaking out, but I was like, well, I mean, I guess, I guess if you're telling me that this is what's going to happen, this is what's going to happen. So they take me upstairs. They start that same day. They removed the sirclage that they had just put in. So talk about trauma. It went back in there. I was raw and just, and they removed it. And then they started putting servadil.

Michelle (05:31)

my God.

Ylette (05:39)

to start trying to soften my cervix. like, well, you you have no water, you're gonna keep leaking. Baby can't grow without amniotic fluid. So we're just gonna have to remove the baby. And the whole time I was freaking out, they put the cerclage, nothing was working. I think they put it three, I mean the cervidil, they put three different rounds of cervidil. Nothing was working, my cervix was tight. And all the while I could feel my baby moving. It's like whenever a doctor would come in, my baby was like, boom, Sophia, like, mom, pay attention.

Michelle (06:02)

my god.

wow.

Ylette (06:09)

elbow me, she would move around and I would tell my mom, I'm like, mom, I feel her moving. I feel her kicking. It's almost like she's trying to tell me something. So this is where it gets really crazy. And I'm just like, wow, divine intervention. So we have a nurse come in and my daughter, my due date with my daughter Sophia was July 10th, 2010.

And the nurse comes in and I see that she's wearing, because I'm big into jewelry. I didn't mention I also have like a jewelry company named after my grandmother, which I do a lot of Zodiac jewelry. So the nurse comes in and the first thing that I notice, of course, is that she's wearing a necklace and she has a cancer Zodiac on it. And I go to her, my God, my daughter was supposed to be a cancer. She's supposed to be born July 10th. And the nurse was like, what? My birthday is July 10th.

Michelle (06:47)

Hmm.

Wow.

Ylette (06:59)

And I was like, my God, like what a coincidence her name was Gloria. And at the time I was going to name my daughter Sophia Bella. And I was like, wow. And the nurse, she did like the little doctor. She's like, listen, honey, I hear the baby moving around in there. There's water in there. You don't continue to leak. You need to get up out of this hospital and go because your baby is fine. And if you continue to stay here, they're going to end up doing something that is going to cause you to abort this child. And I feel like she's fine.

in came another nurse right after her name Sophia. And she was like, the same thing happened to me. I had a little tear in my sack and it kind of sealed over. I was on bed rest and my son is here, born healthy. And I was like, you know what? I talked to my mom, was like, we need to go. When the doctor found out that I needed, that I was going to get up and go and like sign myself out, they came in, a specialist came in and was like, your baby can be born with this and this and this and it's not going to develop.

Michelle (07:42)

Yeah.

Ylette (07:54)

all of these things to scare me. And in that moment, I just felt so confident and so secure after talking to Gloria and that, you know, her coming in, which I feel like she was my earth angel with the little cancer zodiac necklace. I was like, no, I'm going to get up and I'm going to go and my baby keeps kicking me. And I trust that this is the right decision. I ended up leaving, found another doctor. The doctor's like, your cervix is fine. There's no issue with your cervix.

Michelle (08:20)

my God.

Ylette (08:22)

You don't even have to be on bed rest. Like, get up, do whatever you need to do. And my daughter Sophia was born July 10th, 2010, and I named her Sophia Gloria after the nurse.

Michelle (08:32)

my God, that is crazy. Yes, that is insane. just, my God, you have to listen to your intuition. think that that's like the, the of the story.

Ylette (08:34)

Isn't that insane?

Yep. Yep. And it's so hard to do, with all of the fear and they just instill so much fear. And if you don't do this and if you don't do that, and it took so much within me to be like, you know what? I'm not, I'm going to go. And I remember my mom and I went to church every Sunday and we would pray and I was like, it makes sense that my daughter's name is Sophia. Sophia Christ consciousness, divine wisdom. And even in her astrology chart, she has so much

old soul energy. She's a cancer rising cancer son, almost a cancer moon in the 12 house in Gemini. And I was like, this is just you came in to really activate me and really put me in touch with my intuition. And ever since then, I completely changed. can ask anyone and they will tell you pre Sophia and post Sophia, you were a completely different person.

And I had a friend who, she actually went on a fertility journey and she was having a lot of miscarriages and she heard, I think she went to a fertility specialist and they gave her the book. What's that book called? The Spirit Baby book by Walter. Yeah. And.

Michelle (09:53)

Spirit Baby? Yeah.

Ylette (09:58)

She gave it to me and I was just so interested in it I started reading it and that book activated me. It was almost like a remembering. So when I started reading that book and I was like, wait a minute, it makes so much sense that we can connect to the souls of the babies that are going to come in because we are souls. And at 18 years old, I had read many lives, many masters. And when I learned about past lives, I was like, it was another like remembering. was like, I knew it. I know I've lived many lives. So when I read spirit babies, I'm like,

Michelle (10:18)

Hmm?

Ylette (10:27)

course, this makes so much sense. So I started connecting. I started doing the meditations in the book and I started connecting with my before I got pregnant, actually this happened. Now that I'm remembering reminding what, cause my husband and I wanted her and I was like, okay, if you're listening to me, if you're close, send me yellow butterflies. Every time that I would go out, three little yellow butterflies would flow around me.

Michelle (10:44)

Mm -hmm.

wow.

Ylette (10:50)

Even my husband would play golf and he'd send me a picture. said, look, a yellow butterfly would land on his golf ball. And I was like, this is so legit. I ended up getting pregnant and it was the most connected that I have felt to any

I would call in the guides. I would call in my ancestors. It was just such a spiritual experience.

So fast forward, I think a lot of us went through a lot in 2020 and it's almost like if our world got turned upside down. I know for us, even like with our business, we went through these highs, these lows and a lot of transformation. And so fast forward, we moved from Miami to Orlando. And so fast forward to this year in March,

I started seeing some yellow butterflies Like I was just seeing them randomly. was like, well, maybe, you know, I'm just seeing yellow butterflies because we live in a very lush neighborhood. We have a lot of trees. Okay. Yellow butterflies. The eclipse hits. Surprise. I ended up finding out that I'm pregnant. We weren't expecting it.

but I feel like this is the thing the one that kind of transformed me because Prior to that I had channeled. I think it was in 2021 a message about mothers needing to really Cleanse and clear any trauma that is held in the womb to be able to hold the vibration of the new children

So a lot of things that I've been channeling is that these new babies that are coming in, they're really high vibe. Like their vibration is different. Even the way that we are experiencing karma, their experiencing karma is going to be different because these new souls really come to anchor the light. These are awakened souls. These are, you know, children from the stars. And I started channeling that information, but I didn't fully understand it. And I kept channeling things about the mother wound and

Michelle (12:28)

Okay.

Ylette (12:41)

clearing the womb and how much trauma we may be holding in our womb. But again, I was like, I've kind of dealt with that. I I went through my trauma. had the whole thing with the sirclage, but I've dealt with that. But healing is very layered. And when we think that we've healed something, another thing kind of comes up for clearing and healing. Exactly. We're peeling back the onion. And so I thought, okay, well, you know, I've healed all of that. So

Michelle (12:54)

Mm

Mm Yeah. It's like an onion.

Mm

Ylette (13:11)

When I got pregnant this last time, it ended in a miscarriage. And I almost knew because I had been living so, you know, when you get into a stage where you just feel like numb and you're disconnected and I felt very disconnected from my creativity, very disconnected from my heart, just kind of going through the motions of, you know, work And I didn't feel like myself. I didn't have any passion.

And so when I went to the doctor, I remember I was like eight weeks pregnant and I went to the doctor and they couldn't find a heartbeat. It's almost like I knew I was like, I'm disconnected from my heart. And the most powerful, I will say now experience that I have had has been experiencing a miscarriage.

Michelle (13:49)

Mm

Ylette (13:58)

because I was able to hold the pain and the joy and almost like life inside me, but then a death as well. And when I passed the baby, I passed the baby And I woke up and I was in my kitchen.

And I felt this one big contraction and I thought, the baby's coming. And I passed the baby and when I look, it was like the full baby in the sack, in the water. Yeah, I even have, I mean, it's kind of intense graphic, but I do have a picture of it because I wanted to keep that. And it was, I remember just looking down and holding her because I think it was a girl. And in that moment,

Michelle (14:26)

wow.

Ylette (14:44)

I looked down and I was like, wow, this, this little tiny thing in the water, just perfect, this little embryo. And I cried. And I, at that moment, I held both joy and sadness. It was like they both coexisted at the same time for me. And it's almost like this peace, the sense of peace washed over me. And I felt like this

this clearing, this cleansing, almost as if this soul, this baby, this experience came to me to help me release all of that trauma that still lingered in my womb, anything that I still hadn't dealt with, anything that was still stored in there. And it was just so beautiful and so magical. I just, I took her and I buried her. have this huge grandmother oak tree in the front and I did a whole little ritual and I just felt

like this purity come over me, like this cleansing. And I finally understood what I had channeled in that message of cleansing and clearing the womb. And sometimes it's through our grief that we learn the biggest lessons and we can hold, like if we really surrender to it, because I remember coming back from the hospital and asking God, I was like, I'm not going to ask for a miracle. I'm not going to ask. I'm just going to ask that whatever needs to be done right now.

Michelle (15:59)

Mm

Mm

Ylette (16:08)

I give it to you, I can't hold this, I can't carry this, I trust in you and I trust that I'm gonna be led through this process for my highest and best good. And it was a level of surrender that I feel like I hadn't reached before. And when I finally let go and I let this process just crack me open, it was this unfolding that really my heart just blasted open in a different way. And...

Michelle (16:21)

Mm

Mm

Ylette (16:34)

even though it was painful, it was so magical. It was so magical. And I think that sometimes it's hard to really surrender and lean into that when we are going through something so difficult, right? Because it's hard, pain hurts. And when we long for something so much or when we want something so bad, it's so hard. Because everyone's like, surrender. trust. It's easy to say, but it's so hard to do.

Michelle (16:46)

Mm

Yeah.

Yeah, it really is. But I think about it. I think about so many things. mean, I think about Eckhart Tolle's teachings. I've always been really into his teachings. And he told a story about Buddha and that he had, a disciple or one of his disciples after Buddha died. He cried and cried and cried and cried. I mean, I think it was like he cried all night long, just couldn't stop crying, just like allowed himself to feel the depth of the pain and woke up the next day enlightened.

Because he allowed himself to walk through that darkness, like fully unimpeded. And how often do we do that? We try to stop it. It's almost like we're going through it. We try to stop it. We're trying to protect ourselves. And what do we do? We actually hold it in our tissues. Yeah.

Ylette (17:31)

The darkness.

We stuff it. I tell my students that actually, I'm like, gotta allow yourself to cry and let the emotions just move through you. Feel it, go there, be vulnerable. Even if you do it by yourself and just let it crack you open and cry and release. And we feel so much better usually after, but it was a huge lesson for me this year in that experience in surrender. it's like an initiation process.

Michelle (18:01)

Yeah.

Ylette (18:13)

Right? That you're going to...

Michelle (18:13)

I get that. I get that. my father passed away. I watched him go through the motions and I literally saw it was so crazy. I've never had an experience like this before because I never had someone so close to me, like naturally die. So they have what's crazy to me that I never knew before, that there are signs almost like you see it with babies, but they have different levels of growth.

They start crawling, they start walking, start teething. The same thing happens when people die. They start to have, they call it the rattle. And it sounds horrible to talk about, but it's not. I think that that's our own human judgments on things. Yes, it's sacred. It's sacred. And so I was like, okay, look, this is crazy because I was at the hospice and...

Ylette (18:46)

Mm

Because there's beauty in that process too. That's what I've learned. Yeah, that's what is so sacred.

Michelle (19:06)

you read these books and they tell you there are signs to death. Like you can certain behaviors, certain expressions, certain things, And I saw my dad looking up at one point and he was looking at something and I'm like that to me reminds me of either a newborn or a cat that zones out into seeing something that I don't see. And I'm like, this is crazy.

Ylette (19:11)

Yes.

Michelle (19:29)

It was almost sacred and sad all at the same time. I remember thinking like, if you just allow yourself, we like to judge and we like to label, just as it's the human condition, if you just allow yourself to move out of that for a second, just for a split second, move out of the judgment of the meaning that you're placing on this moment and what it is and the label of it.

Ylette (19:32)

Yeah.

Michelle (19:54)

If for one second you move out of that and you really open up to whatever that experience is, it's insane, but you can find a gift in that.

Ylette (20:03)

Yes, a thousand percent. I think that, because I went through the hospice experience too with my grandfather and my grandmother, and it almost felt like it's that feeling of when you're just dancing between worlds. It's almost like being in a hospital waiting for someone to give birth and then for someone to just cross over. It's that liminal space where it's sacred and you get to hold it. And I feel like it is true what you're saying that

Michelle (20:24)

Mm

Ylette (20:31)

know, birth, we're always celebrating it, but death is sad and scary, but it's also very sacred. And I think it's important to also hold space for that and to honor how magical that transition can also be when we've, you know, completed this cycle and we're ready to go. And they are in tune with that space that is magical. Cause I remember my grandfather would say that he was seeing his mom and he was seeing friends of his that crossed over.

Michelle (20:37)

you

Yeah, they do. They see.

Ylette (20:57)

And in that moment when I was talking to him, even though I know that he was going and it was very sad, was also, wow, you're so, you're dancing with the magic, with the divine, with those moments. Yes.

Michelle (21:10)

It's that connection, the portal opens. And so what I found actually, had a patient, she was trying to conceive for years and her grandfather had just passed away and she felt was just in her bones. Like she just knew that he was gonna open a portal for her and shortly after she conceived. And then she was even like after her first baby, she was on the birth control pills and regardless.

she got pregnant, which is really, I don't even know how that happened. But it was just like that. It was like something opened up and it was just like, boom, it was this connection of like death and birth and that cycle and that opening. It was really crazy.

Ylette (21:43)

opened up.

Yes. Yes, that's exactly what I, yes, I I love it. And think that's exactly what I went through with this but wow, how sacred is this moment as well of loss and death and returning to the earth. And it's like, we come in, we go out and, but our souls are.

immortal, they're eternal. And I think that there is much work to be done for us to be able to hold space and really honor how sacred something like that can also be. And I think as women too, it's so important to hold space for it all. I even think that, you know, that something that has come up for me a lot now too, with this fear of like, you know, announcing like, I'm pregnant now is just what if I use it? What if

and not wanting to say anything, but I'm like, it's so important too to have community and have a community of women that know that you are pregnant and that you can share if something does go wrong with so that you don't have to go through it alone so that they can hold space for you so that whatever it is that you're going through, you have that community of friends and people that are like, my experience may be different from your experience, but I feel you, I got you, I'm holding space for you. I think as women, that is so important for us to have.

Michelle (22:56)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Ylette (23:02)

because the journey is personal, but it's also collective. And I have a lot of friends who are currently struggling to conceive. And I have one, you know, she's a little bit older and she's struggling to conceive. And I gave her this book. I don't know if you've heard of it. It's called, what is it called? Something Choice. I'll have to get you the name. Mary, is it Mary's, Rosa's Choice?

But the minute that I started reading it, it talks a lot about the mother wounds and things that we haven't explored. And I'm like, wow, there's so many things that when we're on the trying to conceive journey come up for us or when we're pregnant come up for us. it's an initiation within itself, that journey of trying and struggling and learning to surrender and learning about your power and learning how to hold your grief, letting others support you.

Michelle (23:57)

Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Ylette (23:57)

really having that community and trusting in a bigger plan, even though it's so hard. It's so hard when you're in the moment, because we want what we want.

Michelle (24:06)

It could feel, you know, for some people they've expressed, You're like stuck in this place and you just want to move on. You want to start your family and you're like, when is this ever going to happen? And then you can kind of get into this whole mindset there where you're like, what's happening, the doubt and the fear. And it could be really tough.

Ylette (24:10)

Yes.

It's, yeah, I had a friend who, and you know what's been something that I've noticed and obviously everyone's story is different, but, and the friends that I have had is when they have reached that point of surrender, where I had a friend who was, think she was trying for almost two years and she was like, you know what, like I'm okay with whether it doesn't happen or not. I've come to a point where, you know, I'm happy, my husband and I, and I have my nieces and nephews and I'm okay and I'm good.

She ended up getting pregnant the month after. She's like, I feel like when I turned it over and I was just like, like, you know what, God, like I'm okay. If it doesn't happen, she ended up getting pregnant. I've heard a lot of stories where women, they make a decision where it's, know, we'll adopt or we're, and then something shifts and something happens. And again, everybody's story is so different because we don't know what one.

woman is going through versus another, whether baby is thinking, Hey mom, I really need you to, you know, move to this new house when this happens, then I'll come through. Cause babies remember spirit babies, they know and they see what we don't. So what we're trying to force something or push something or think we want it now, sometimes babies are wait, wait.

Michelle (25:33)

Mm

Ylette (25:39)

Hold on, I'm coming, but wait, because there's little pieces that need to be moved. Maybe there's something like, want you and daddy to get closer. There's something in the relationship where I want to bring you guys closer. it's hard for us to let go because we don't see the big picture. But in working with the spirit babies, something that I have found is that they see big picture. And when we work with them and something as simple as,

Michelle (26:00)

Mm

Ylette (26:04)

It doesn't have to be complicated, just journaling to them, pretend that you're, you know, write them a letter, connect to them. Hey baby, this is my lie. If I am your mom, tell them about you. Start a specific journal where you go just to talk to them and ask for signs. I'm like, usually the first thing that comes to your mind is a sign. You start creating that connection where even if you're struggling to conceive, I feel like just knowing that

you have this bond and you have this connection is so healing and so comforting because even if it takes longer, even if baby isn't meant to incarnate in this lifetime, if you're, I am a big believer, if you have that desire in your heart to have a child, you feel connected to a child, your child is there. Sometimes they're not always meant to incarnate.

Michelle (26:53)

I say the same thing all the time. It's so funny. A lot of what you're saying are things that I feel deeply. Yeah.

Ylette (26:59)

Yeah, because it's sometimes they're not meant to incarnate, but they're meant to serve as our guide. They're meant to work with us. So I always say if you feel that desire, if you're trying to get your baby is there and you can connect with them, whether it's through journaling, through meditation, through asking for signs and then surrendering and allowing yourself to receive synchronicities, numbers. And you start building that connection, which a lot of babies, they

Often I've heard from other women that I've talked to too is like the baby wants that. They want to start building that connection before and then they'll end up getting pregnant or it'll be a little bit easier for them to get pregnant. But babies are like, no, I want to connect with you now. I want you to get to know me now. I want to guide you. Because even working with them, they can help guide us to, if I'm waiting for my mom to get a better job, mom, hey, I'm over here. Connect with me, work with me. And then once you start

Michelle (27:40)

Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Mm

Ylette (27:52)

Surrendering to that opening up to that you see how little things start shifting and things start moving But if you have a desire Let go of the how you got to let go of the how and just allow You know God spirit to deliver because it can look so different from the way that you thought it was gonna look like if you have something in your mind where you're like I'm gonna get pregnant by this agent. This is gonna happen by this agent. This is what and it's like no, no Let's surrender to that connect with your baby and be like, know what baby

I surrender to you. I surrender to how you want to be conceived, how you want to be born, how it's going to look. Like maybe it can even be through adoption or we just don't really know. But I do believe that if you have the desire, baby's there.

Michelle (28:35)

Well, there has always been that saying, If there's a desire within you, there's also possibility in the, ethers. And that's why, that's where the desire is born, actually. It's like from that possibility, it's like landed as a seed. And so that is something that I definitely don't think we should ignore. And we should also give it the merit that it deserves. And I have...

Ylette (28:42)

Yes.

Michelle (28:59)

one of my patients just recently, she was starting to ask for signs. We talked about that. And she's like starting to ask for signs. And then she started asking for specific signs and the signs that she got were insane. Because she would even say a name that she always wanted for her daughter. So she knew it was going to be a daughter and she described exactly what it was and all this stuff. Like she was struggling to conceive for about a year and half before she came to me. She saw me for a whole year. So I'm giving you kind of this background so you can see that she really struggled.

Ylette (29:04)

Mm

Yeah.

Michelle (29:29)

but the signs were so insanely accurate. Like she would see this name on a wine bottle that she received. She would see this when she would go on a treadmill. It was like the last person's like name that they input there. It was crazy. and it wasn't like a common name. So it was really, really crazy.

Ylette (29:42)

What?

Michelle (29:52)

that and then other signs she said, okay, let me give you a specific sign that's different. And she would start seeing that. I mean, so she would come and tell me the stories. I'd get chills every time. And I was like, my God, this is crazy. So then finally she gave herself like a certain timeline. She said, if I'm not pregnant by this time, I'm going to go to do IVF. She went and did IVF and she was all excited. She like just felt like she really knew. She knew, she knew she did IVF. Unfortunately, completely couldn't even get an embryo.

So it was really, really sad. was devastating to watch. I felt like I was already failing her because she's been coming to me for a year and I'm like, my God, I really, I really want to see this for her. Like it was just, I can see the tears and, then she said, okay, let me just do this other one. She got a loan and everything. Let me try this other retrieval. Again, a second time, she just out of nowhere gets pregnant naturally. It just comes out of nowhere. And I was like, it was like that. And she's like, I know it's going to be a girl.

Ylette (30:42)

you

Michelle (30:48)

We don't know yet. I mean, she's still in her first trimester. We're going to find out soon. But she's like, I know it's a girl. Yeah. And it was just crazy. the signs, 100%. I always tell people, ask for those signs. They will come to you. I mean, the stories I heard, I can write a book just on the signs, just on the signs themselves.

Ylette (30:49)

huh.

Yeah.

How exciting, you know?

Yes.

And I think that it's also important to share those stories and to listen to those stories because it also gives you hope when you're on that trying to conceive journey. And I am big on listening to other stories and I love stories of hope and everything is so different for everyone. And some babies do prefer like, okay, I want to be born through IVF. That could just be part of your journey because there's something there for you. Right. Yes.

Michelle (31:35)

or a surrogate or even an egg donor. I've had one where I had a guest, she's a fertility coach. She had two embryo donors, like complete embryo adoptions. And she knew that she wanted to do it and she felt connected. It was just crazy. mean, she had a crazy story herself, but very, very interesting how that happened.

Ylette (31:49)

Well.

that you feel the call and that's where that surrender piece comes in where it's like, just let go of the how. Forget of how you imagined you want it to look. Just focus on what is it that you want. You want to bring in a baby closer, start connecting to the baby and let go of the how and then just allow it to be delivered to you. Whether it's surrogate, IVF, adoption, just let go.

Michelle (32:03)

Yeah.

Yes, 100%. Yeah.

Right, the how, because it's a conversation, it's a dance. And if we're just talking, it's not a conversation. If we're just telling it how to be, it's not a conversation. We have to, yes, we could talk, but also receive and kind of go back and forth and allow that.

Ylette (32:22)

Mm

Exactly.

And that's that feminine, right? Because that's the most feminine thing that we can do is just being in that surrender, in that flow state. you have to be so vulnerable, which I think is why it's so hard for so many of us to really just be open and just be fully surrendered and open because we have to feel safe in order to be able to.

Michelle (32:54)

It's scary. That's scary. Like it's a scary thing. I always kind of like look at even the chakras and I learned that when I was studying Ayurveda, mean, the chakras are literally vortexes in our bodies. And what's interesting is cause when I studied acupuncture, I started seeing that there are points that correlate and correspond and even have the same indication for that specific chakra location. So that to me is almost like confirmation cause it's two different sciences, but then.

What's interesting to me is that you have the root chakra, that's the first one, and that pretty much holds up everything else. It begins there, it begins with feeling safe. Once you have that rooted establishment, that's established and you feel safe and you're grounded, then you can create. That's a second chakra. You cannot create without a feeling of safety. And so it's all about feeling safe. And then,

Ylette (33:30)

Thank

Yes.

Michelle (33:52)

The nervous system we know, it plays a huge role on your body and also your reproductive health. And right now, the way we're living, and I'm talking about the collective, it is such an assault to our nervous system. I can't even tell you, like in so many ways. So it's important to kind of get ahead of that, not to side direct the conversation, but it's just so important.

Ylette (34:04)

Yeah.

Yes.

Yeah. Yeah. And I think you're doing wonderful work in the world, which is so, so important and being able to, it makes sense why you feel that strong Kwan Yin energy, being able to hold space because you're holding space in order for women to feel safe and feel surrendered. Right? So they come to you and they're

playing in that feminine energy where it's like, this is me, I'm vulnerable. You're meeting people at their most raw, their most vulnerable moments, you know, even from a point of desperation and to feel safe with you. I'm sure like it's so important because then they can fully surrender into the process and go through it with someone that they feel safe with. Because at the end of the day, it all goes back to that, that safety and intimate relationships. see it too. When I, even when I do counseling sessions, it's like if

the person doesn't feel safe, they're not gonna open up and they're not gonna be able to receive anything. So the growth comes from first the safety, the surrender, the vulnerability and then allowing yourself to be able to receive. But that's, it's so feminine, right? Cause even when we're having sex, it's like you have to feel safe to open, to surrender and then to be, to be penetrated, to receive. And it's, it's, it's hard. It's hard.

Michelle (35:06)

Yeah.

Mm

Mm

Yes, it could be very hard for sure. so for people like, cause I think that a lot of people will ask like, what's the difference between my thoughts and my intuition? what, like if the spirit baby is speaking to me, how do I know that it's the spirit baby? How do I know that it's not just me thinking or making it like a thing? So what would you say to that? Cause I think that that's a very big question for people who want to get into the intuition, want to connect.

directly with your spirit baby.

Ylette (36:02)

I think that when it comes to, like everyone receives intuitive hits differently. But for me, it's always that knowing, that inner knowing, that feeling. I think that you'll just know and it'll be specific to you. And you have to trust that, I call it the little heart string, like when your heart goes, and you kind of just know, you need to trust that feeling because thoughts are more fearful and they're gonna be, no, that's not real, that's not.

Michelle (36:06)

Mm

Ylette (36:30)

But when you get an intuitive hit and you see something and it takes you back, like you have to trust like that wow factor, like that feeling of where we can be walking down the street, right? And I'm trying to conceive, I'm trying to get pregnant and I know that my sign is a yellow butterfly and I see the yellow butterfly and it's gonna hit me, it's gonna stop me, it's gonna go, Whereas my friend would be like, cool, a yellow butterfly. So you have to trust that feeling that you get, that gut feeling and that feeling in your heart where you're

just going to know. And your thoughts are anxiety versus intuition is it's going to sound fearful. that doesn't exist. That's scary. But you have to kind of drown it out because it's really hard to silence the mind. And the logical mind always gets in the way. But intuition isn't logical. And the more we allow ourselves to really play in that realm of imagination. And I say be a little delulu because you got to be a little delulu in order to really start testing that intuition.

Michelle (37:13)

Mm

I like that.

Ylette (37:30)

Is when things are going to open up and it you don't need anyone else to validate it for you There's no convincing because you're just gonna know and I always tell people that I love pointing people back to themselves because a lot of Women because I have this membership circle that I actually just reopened It's called the mystic mama collective And what I love to do is I love to point women back to themselves because I don't want you to come to me for validation I need you to trust what you are getting

and know that it is for you. Because like I said, the yellow butterfly may be mine, but yours is gonna be something different and it's gonna make sense to you. And you're just gonna know it in your heart. And the more that you start to trust that and put aside the logical mind that tells you, that's not real. Because society tells us that so many things aren't real, right? And it's this conditioning and you have to kind of just silence that and trust, continue to trust. And the more that you trust...

Michelle (38:22)

Mm

Ylette (38:24)

the louder that it gets and the easier that it gets to start following that intuition. Because if you're, let's say you and I are both walking down the road and I'm meant to go right and you're meant to go left, you're gonna be like, I think left. And I'm like, no, I think right. But if you start convincing me to go left and I'm like, I'm really feeling like I gotta go right, but you said I should go left. Maybe I should go left. That's when we start getting into trouble. So sometimes we have to realize that what may be true for you is great, but it's not true for me. And I gotta,

Michelle (38:44)

Yeah.

Yes.

Ylette (38:54)

start learning to really trust myself. The more that we do that, the louder and clearer it's gonna be and the easier it's gonna get to start following our intuition. Because we know even like we know as women like you know when it's time to end the relationship, you know when it's time to leave that job, you know when things are no longer in alignment but what keeps us there longer than we need to be?

Michelle (39:09)

Mm -hmm. Yep.

Yeah, right. We'll convince ourselves out of it. You know, everything that you're saying could be applied to creativity. And that's why I think that like the single most greatest thing you can do actually to impact fertility is become creative. Start to do creative things. Even if you're not considering yourself as a creative person, you are creative. We're born creative. Our decisions of how we're going to drive somewhere is using your creativity. You're always using your creativity. It may not be an art per se.

Ylette (39:30)

Yes.

Michelle (39:45)

But you're always creating anyway, because you have to, because that's how we think. That's how we pivot.

Ylette (39:47)

You're something.

And another thing too that I was told to is find something, like, fair babies, let me know, find something that you can nurture, whether it's a garden, a pet, a plant, a project, get into that energy of nurturing something. Just practice nurturing. It puts you in that feminine energy of taking care of something, nurturing yourself, which is a huge one. A lot of times it's like, what are you doing for yourself?

Michelle (40:03)

I love that.

Yeah.

Ylette (40:21)

in order to create this space. Because if you're constantly go, go, go, go, go, well, then how are you going to then bring in a child who's going to need so much attention and space and nurturing? So practicing nurturing yourself to taking a bubble bath, getting your nails done, getting your hair done, even, you know, putting on some jewelry, putting on some makeup. It's a way of you honoring that divine feminine and being able to nurture yourself. Everything is connected, even though it seems like, what does this have to do with that? It's all connected.

Michelle (40:45)

Yes. 100%. Yes. It's the big picture. It's the big picture perspective. my God, I love this. I could talk to you for hours, by the way. So for people who want to reach out for you, you do readings. Do you astrological readings? And could you like, yeah.

Ylette (40:51)

Yes.

I know!

Yeah, so right now I'm about to open my books again. I would do like spirit baby readings, card readings. I have I do astrology readings as well and I have my membership circle. So right now I have the free community space which women can just join and we do updates in there. I am going to open up the paid membership now which we're going to be doing like moon circles and just a space to go deeper for those who really want to do the work to get in tune with their intuition and learn.

And I'm also working on a spirit baby course on how to communicate with your spirit babies. So that is coming with meditations. We're also going to look into some of the things that may be blocking like mother wounds and things like that, because that's what has really been coming up for a lot of women that I talk to is a lot of mother wounds and fear around mothering, mothering themselves, mothering others, issues with their own mothers or how they were mothered, because we don't even realize, but

Michelle (41:35)

I love that.

Ylette (42:01)

all of that programming or the experiences that we went through.

Yep, it's in there and that fear that we carry of, am I gonna be a good mother? That's a huge one. Am I gonna fail at this? Am I gonna? So I think the work is just bringing women back to themselves and having them just trust themselves. I'm really big on trust yourself. Don't come to me for validation. I can hold space for you, but you have the power. It's all within you. You gotta trust yourself.

Michelle (42:29)

Love that. That's awesome. So how can people find you?

Ylette (42:34)

So you can find me on my Instagram it's at let's while eat TTE underscore and then I have links and bio there to everything I've kind of been a little MIA from that because I've been feeling so sick Honestly, this is the first Pregnancy that I was feeling so sick and I think I kind of manifested that too because of the fear of the miscarriage from the other one So it was kind of like that

Michelle (42:46)

Mm

Ylette (42:59)

little thing where it's like, cause you know how everyone tells you, if you're nauseous, then it's a good sign. If you're nauseous, means things are going well. And I think I've manifested that, I swear to kind of keep me like, yeah, like, no, no, it's okay. It's okay. Cause I'm gonna get something wrong. this, you know, cause when you go through something like it is traumatic, you go through an experience like that and, it's hard to kind of lean into that joy. Cause you're just holding your breath. It's almost like,

Michelle (43:04)

Mm

Yeah.

In check like to calm you down.

Yeah.

Yes.

Ylette (43:27)

I just feel like I've been holding my breath, of like, you know, even talking about it now.

Michelle (43:31)

I see this all the time. It happens with like almost all my patients. mean, I would say all of them. Yeah.

Ylette (43:38)

Yeah, it's hard. hard to feel that joy, which is kind of sad because then you look back and like, I wish I would have been more. But it's just telling yourself if something is meant to happen, it's going to happen. Kind of let it go. But I still dance with the... It's a dance, right? No one's perfect. I dance with the fear and the surrender and the joy.

Michelle (43:50)

Yeah.

Absolutely. Yes. a good thing for people to hear because like, even though you and I, teach a lot, we talk a lot, you know, we go, we're human too. Like we still, even though I'll teach something, I still sometimes have my own struggles walking the talk and you are experiencing that too. And that's kind of like that human aspect of it that we are all practicing and going through it.

Ylette (44:06)

Mm -hmm.

Michelle (44:22)

even though we know, we know it, we never get to this kind of like this place of perfection, everything working out like all the time exactly how we teach it, you know? Yeah.

Ylette (44:31)

Exactly. That's the thing too is, and I think that it's important too, and it's powerful for us to as teachers also be walking the walk and going through our own experiences because it does show those that we work with. Like I'm here with you. I'm human too. I don't really like like people. I'm like, don't place me above. I bleed. You you cut me. I bleed. I'm human. have anxiety, so much anxiety. The difference is that I do the work because I say that the work that we do

Michelle (44:46)

Yeah, totally.

Yes.

Yeah.

Ylette (44:59)

helps us get through these moments, but it doesn't mean we're exempt from them. We're gonna go through them.

Michelle (45:03)

No, no, no, no. Yeah. We're not exempt. As long as we're humans, we're not exempt. no doubt. Wow. So, Ylette this is a great conversation. you so much for coming on today.

Ylette (45:09)

not exam but the work just kind of helps out it kind of helps out but yeah.

Thank you for inviting me, I feel so honored.

EP 309 What You’re Not Being Told About Gut Health and it’s Impact on Fertility | Josh Dech

In today’s episode, I interview Josh Dech. In our conversation, Josh discusses the critical role of gut health in overall well-being, emphasizing that gut health impacts not just digestion but various aspects of health, including fertility. He shares his journey from being a paramedic to a holistic health practitioner, highlighting the importance of understanding inflammation, dysbiosis, and the gut microbiome. 

Josh challenges conventional medical perspectives on chronic diseases and discusses the significance of dietary choices, the role of probiotics, and the hidden threats posed by parasites. He advocates for a comprehensive approach to gut health, including the five Rs of gut health, and stresses the importance of working with health professionals for optimal results. Be sure to tune in!

Takeaways

• Gut health impacts everything, not just digestion.

• Inflammation is a sign of the body wanting to heal.

• Dysbiosis is an imbalance in gut bacteria.

• Symptoms can indicate underlying issues.

• Diet plays a crucial role in gut health.

• Conventional medicine often overlooks root causes.

• All diseases have a root cause.

• Probiotics can be beneficial but vary in effectiveness.

• Parasites can significantly affect gut health.

• Working with a professional is essential for healing.

Guest Bio:

Josh is a Holistic Nutritionist specializing in Crohn’s and Colitis, and other related gut issues. After reversing over 250 cases of bowel disease, previously

thought to be impossible to fix, he’s been connected to some of the world’s most renowned doctors.

He’s since been recruited to the Priority Health Academy as a medical lecturer, helping educate doctors on the holistic approach to gut health, and inflammatory bowel disease; and has launched a top 2.5% globally ranked podcast.

https://gutsolution.ca

https://www.instagram.com/joshdech.health/

For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Click here to get free access to the first chapter in The Way of Fertility Book! https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

Transcript:

Michelle (00:00)

Welcome to the podcast, Josh.

Josh Dech - CHN (00:02)

A pleasure to be here, Michelle. Thanks for having me on board.

Michelle (00:05)

Yeah, I'm very excited to pick your brain. We just had a little pre -talk. I'm excited to really get into all the details of the gut nowadays we're starting to see just how impactful it is, but not just for digestion, which is like most of the time when you hear about gut, you think, okay, how's my digestion?

It's about everything. It's kind of like the center of everything. It impacts fertility.

But before we get into that, I'd love for you to share how you got into this work.

Josh Dech - CHN (00:36)

I'd love to. Sure. You know, I think my entire career, I often like to describe it as a series of accidents just pushing me into one direction or another. And I used to be a paramedic and I loved it. You know, I love being in healthcare, but it wasn't very long until I realized it was actually sick care. It wasn't what I wanted to actually be doing. You know, I picked the same people up for the same things. Maybe 20 % of your calls were actually trauma, like car accidents and stuff like that. The other 80 plus percent was medical.

So we're talking people coming in for the same issues, heart issues, diabetic issues, strokes, very preventable things. Almost 99 % of them would be preventable through just simple lifestyle, nutrition and basic changes. And, you know, I ended up leaving that career after a short little stint and got into personal training in my early twenties. And that was more what I wanted to do. And I was a woman who came to see me at age 57, right at the beginning. And this is, this story is just, it'll knock your socks off because it really shows you what's possible.

So she's 57 years old. She came to see me. She was on 17 pills and a shot of insulin for breakfast. She had nine more pills and insulin for bedtime. So we're talking 26 pills a day, two shots of insulin. She had CPAP machine to sleep. She had high blood pressure. She was on disability at work as well on the list. So 27 floors up, but there was a fire. She had to stand there and wait for someone to come get her because she couldn't physically take the stairs. And that was the state of her health at 57. And so here we are two years later, she's 59 years old now.

Michelle (01:54)

my God, wow.

Josh Dech - CHN (02:02)

She's off all but two medications, no longer needs CPAP. She's no longer on disability, high blood pressure gone, it's totally normalized. Even her eyesight improved. She got her glasses prescription downgraded. And now he or she is 59 years old, Michelle, it gets even better. I told you, knock your socks off. We entered into her first weightlifting competition and she broke a world record in the raw power lifting federation in Canada at 59 from previously being on disability. And this is the power.

Michelle (02:14)

Wow.

Yeah

Josh Dech - CHN (02:30)

really truly the human body to go from 26 pills and insulin and disability to breaking world records right till she was in her mid 60s 62 63 when she retired from weightlifting but that's what the body can do it's consistently all the time it is working to heal you to improve you to rebuild you to build you stronger yet somehow we find ourselves continually going back the other way i'm getting it must be because i'm older it must be because you know i'm just getting sick it must be just genetic it must be this must be that

She was told all of her shit was genetic. None of it was. Her body was trying to heal her but it wasn't given the tools conditions and circumstances to do so until it was and then it did. And this is the power of we'll say holistic health is a super broad overarching spectrum but dealing with basics of nutrition and gut health and wellness at its root we can see that the body is so capable of healing itself and it's the most important thing you could ever do is give your body what it needs.

Michelle (03:01)

Yeah.

Josh Dech - CHN (03:29)

That's sort of how we got here.

Michelle (03:29)

That is so powerful. Yeah, I that's so powerful because I, well, I think that the big thing that really gets in the way is kind of how we view our bodies or how we're taught to view our bodies. I want to say that we're conditioned to view our bodies because I think on an innate level, we do know that we can heal ourselves.

There's definitely like an innate knowing that you have and intelligence that you connect with with your body. But most people do not know based on how we're educated that their body can heal itself and that there is a choice outside of the 26 pills.

Josh Dech - CHN (04:02)

Yes.

Yeah, right now you've been told there's nothing you can do right now you've been told your issues are genetic right now you've been told your only hope is medications to manage the symptoms there's nothing that can be done. But we need to understand as I learned throughout my career going back to school now specializing in gut diseases. Our guts really are at the epicenter of most of these things. And once you understand how it works, how it's connected, and how it's responsible for every aspect of your well being.

I argue sometimes that it well may be more important than our DNA. And once we can understand this concept, then we can start to look outside of what we think we already know, what we've been told. It unlocks a whole new, a whole new world for you. I'm singing a lot of it in my head now, a whole new world, but it opens all this stuff up for you. And then everything is possible. Everything you've been told becomes something of the past. Your whole paradigm begins to shift. And finally, you can look at yourself and go, wait a minute.

Michelle (04:37)

You

Josh Dech - CHN (05:03)

wait a minute, there, I don't have to be on these medications. I don't have to just deal with this. I don't have to just live with this because my body is trying to heal me. What is it trying to heal me from? And then you start unraveling. That's the thread that pulls apart the whole sweater.

Michelle (05:17)

Yeah. And also inflammation is kind of at the heart of this because I know that it can impact so many things. know for fertility, it can impact your uterine lining. It can impact egg quality. it's very much linked with things like endometriosis. I mean, there's so many things and it just goes on and on and on. So let's talk about inflammation because that's really at the heart of all of this. Like when you address the gut health,

actually addressing inflammation. So talk about that. Talk about the Western approach to that and how you see inflammation occurring in the body.

Josh Dech - CHN (05:55)

Yeah. Inflammation is always a reaction. Your body is healing you from something. And in the Westernized world, here's what I'll say. Imagine you're out going for a walk and you step on a nail and the nail goes right through your foot and you go into your doctor. The doctor looks at that nail and goes, wow, it is really swollen, really inflamed, but it's kind of just part of your body. Now there's nothing we can do about it. So what we're going to do is give you numbing cream for the pain. And if it gets infected, we can manage that as things get worse.

In worst case scenario, we'll just cut your foot off. That's absurd. may, you'd lose it. You slap the doctor, but here we are, we're going in and you got say a gut disease where I specialize like Crohn's, colitis and other gut disease. You go into your doctor, they go, wow, that inflammation is really bad. It's just genetic. It's part of your body. There's nothing we can do. We're going to manage it with quote numbing cream. So medication, anti -inflammatories. And when you get infected, we'll treat it as it comes up. And if worst case scenario, we'll just cut the organ out.

You should be slapping your doctor just like you would if it were your foot because it makes no sense. Inflammation, the very fundamentals of it is your body healing you from something. So let's apply this to Crohn's and colitis, right? Where I specialize is Crohn's, colitis and severe IBS. People are told it's genetic, it's autoimmune, there's nothing you can do. It is what it is. well, it will manage it or hopefully not cut out your bowels. Looking at this, it's not just genetic. It's not just autoimmune. It's not just unknown.

And I can break those down in about two minutes there, Michelle, really for you to basically, those are the three legs that Western medicine stands on to say you have to medicate it. I can break those with their own data and say it doesn't make any sense. But the idea being these inflammatory conditions we're told we're stuck with, yet we can reverse them 99 % of the time to full healing. Inflammation is your body healing you. We have to ask what is it healing you from?

So in the case of your intestines, they will, it's autoimmune and genetic, it's attacking your own body. Well, what if, what if your body is attacking something like your microbiome and your own tissues are caught in the crossfire, right? You get a nail in your foot, your body's not attacking your foot. That's not why you're inflamed. It's creating white blood cells or immune activity in response to attack the nail that's in your foot.

Michelle (07:50)

Mm

Mmm.

Josh Dech - CHN (08:13)

We don't question that. go, obviously it's infected. There's something that's wrong. When we get a condition like Crohn's or colitis or some other inflammatory condition, we go, it's attacking me. That doesn't make any sense at all.

Michelle (08:13)

Mm

That's so interesting. So how do you see that specifically Crohn's is it the gut microbiome imbalance that's causing all of this? I think it's fascinating that you're saying this because I always talk about like symptoms being your friend. And it's actually just one of the intelligent aspects of your body to give you the alarm, to give you a heads up. Hey, pay attention.

Josh Dech - CHN (08:36)

Yeah.

Mm

Michelle (08:52)

So it is really fascinating to look at it that way rather than a nuisance.

Josh Dech - CHN (08:52)

Yeah.

Yeah, I see it cascading down as a few different things. So number one, we all have dysbiosis now. Dysbiosis just means an imbalance in bacteria. But we know through the work of someone like Justin Sonnenberg that we can see what's called inherited dysbiosis. Our microbiomes are passed down from our mothers and her grandmother and her great, great grandmother before that. We get these dysbiotic states handed down and the more toxic our world gets them, the the dysbiosis becomes.

Michelle (09:06)

Mm

Josh Dech - CHN (09:26)

So think of it this way, Michelle, great, great grandmother, we'll just round number just to visualize easier. Say they have a thousand microbes. Great grandmother gives birth to your great grandmother, who's given 800, who gives birth to your grandmother, who gets six, to your mother, who gets 400, to you, who gets 200 microbes. You now have inherited dysbiosis. Of course your gut's getting worse, which explains the rise of gut disease we've seen over the last...

50 to 75 years, we've seen these numbers compounding gut disease getting worse in the 1950s, Crohn's and colitis. There was about, I think it was maybe five or 10 in 100 ,000 people had this disease. To the 1970s, you're now 25 to 40 in 100 ,000 who have the disease. 1990s, you're about 150. And now today, it's 456. Almost 5 % of people now have bowel disease in North America.

And so what we're seeing now is this continual growth from like whatever it was, 0 .0005 % to 5 % growth in bowel disease is because great great grandmother had a thousand, now you've got 200. This is inherited dysbiosis. And there's a direct correlation to the amount of pesticides we use, to the chemicals we put on our food, to everything. And now what happens, this dysbiosis, this is the moat around the castle. This keeps the bad guys out.

Michelle (10:39)

Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Josh Dech - CHN (10:49)

This is your defense mechanism. 90 % of your immune system is made there, or 70 to 90%, I should say, up to 90 % of your neurotransmitters, what your brain needs, all these leaks that happen in the gut when we're inflamed, it opens up the door for toxins to travel anywhere in the body through your lymphatic system or your bloodstream. And so we have our defenses lowered from 1 ,000 to 200, say. We don't have the same robustness to our body.

Michelle (10:54)

Mm

Josh Dech - CHN (11:16)

which means other invaders, mode is empty, invaders can enter the castle. So now we've got three big issues that really are the roots of bowel disease. Number one is going to be microbial imbalances. So this is that dysbiosis we inherited, which lets in overgrowth of fungus, which should be in our gut, but in smaller levels it overgrows. We see overgrowth of E. coli, a big one I see. Michelle has parasites. I'm talking three, four foot worms coming out of people, which yeah, which.

Michelle (11:20)

Hmm.

Mm God.

Josh Dech - CHN (11:45)

has never been detected and will never be seen on your blood work from your doctor. So we see microbial imbalances. We also see toxins which contribute to this number of 200. So pesticides in 1990, right, we had let's go back to the 50s. We talked about say five or 10 in 100 ,000 to 1990 where it was about 150 to today where it's almost 456 per hundred thousand people with bowel disease. In the 1950s there was a handful of pesticides for use.

1990s it was 700 to 900, today it's 18 to 20 ,000 different pesticides approved for use in North America. And so this is a direct correlation, also looking at processed foods and packaged foods and seed oil consumption, the decrease in natural foods like eggs and animal fats, the increase in these artificial foods that we're now taking in. I'm not even arguing are animal fats good or bad for your heart, what I'm saying is we've eaten less of them than ever before and have more diseases than ever before.

Michelle (12:39)

Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Josh Dech - CHN (12:41)

And so we have to look at these correlations and go, wait a minute, something is up. Now I'm a big fan of red meat and fatty tissues. I eat a lot of fat and a lot of meat and my body's amazing, my blood is great, right? But this is what we see, microbial imbalances, toxicity from foods, from the environment, from other places. And then we have again, a dietary nutrient deficiency. So diets, 60 to 80 % of the standard American diet is processed, refined. comes from a bag, a freezer, a box or a drive -through.

We have nutrients in our soil. Back in 2008, there was a study from the University of Texas who estimated you need eight oranges today to get the same level of nutrition that your great great grandmother would have out of one single orange due to tilling of the soil, the pesticides, right? Modern farming. So we have dysbiosis, which leads to toxins coming out or your toxins contribute to this as well. We have nutrient deficiencies because our food is more fake.

Michelle (13:22)

Yeah, crazy.

Josh Dech - CHN (13:36)

And then we have microbial imbalances overgrowing. No wonder your body's throwing a fit. Because since the beginning of time, whether you believe it was 5 ,000 years or 500 billion years, since the beginning of time, we've never had these issues. In fact, still today, the further away you go from the Western world, where we're eating all this food and covered in these toxins and these chemicals, the further away you go, the less disease you see. There's a direct correlation to living back naturally. Hunter gatherer tribes, they're like, what is infertility?

What do mean back pain? what are arthritis, Parkinson's, Alzheimer's, kidney disease, liver disease, diabetes. What are those? They don't skin issues, acne. These are things we call normal. They've never seen it before. And this is why this is how we get disease. Yeah.

Michelle (14:16)

Yeah.

That is so crazy. I mean, it's really crazy. It's crazy to think about and it's crazy that this is acceptable and that there's no regulation and nobody's really protecting the health of the people. mean, enough is enough. Like it's just so frustrating because we, because people know that it's bad. They know it and they do it anyway. And, and in many countries, many of these pesticides are banned and they know that it can impact fertility. Now they're linking a lot of them.

Josh Dech - CHN (14:33)

I hear you.

Michelle (14:50)

So it's so frustrating. It's so frustrating for me to see my patients having to climb an uphill battle just so that they can protect their reproductive health. Like it's just crazy. And also it's interesting that you were talking about how the dysbiosis has passed on from situations or conditions such as Crohn's disease.

Josh Dech - CHN (15:03)

Yeah.

Michelle (15:15)

And it's interesting because like people would say, it's inherited, it's DNA. You would think that it's kind of the DNA, but it's actually, you're saying that it's the dysbiosis that's being passed on. I'm sure there's some level of DNA, like susceptibility as well, but that's kind of an interesting take or an understanding of it because you're like, okay, like that's not something that people thought about. And we know very well.

Josh Dech - CHN (15:33)

sure.

Well, I'd love to...

Michelle (15:43)

that the mother passes on her microbiome to the baby.

Josh Dech - CHN (15:48)

She does. Yeah. I'd love to break those three things for you I could Michelle and just a matter of minutes. You know, we look at IBD Crohn's colitis. It's just genetic. It's autoimmune or there's no known cause. Well, we just talked about number one. These are the three pillars that stands on for your doctor to say it's meds for life or surgery. That's what they have.

Michelle (16:06)

So you're saying this is the perspective of medicine, what you just said. Yeah. Yeah.

Josh Dech - CHN (16:11)

Yeah, sorry, let me clarify. So if you've been diagnosed with Crohn's colitis or even IBS, you've been told it's genetic or it's an autoimmune condition or there's no known cause. That's what your doctors told you to date. And they say your best bet is medication or surgery. That's your only hope. What I'm saying is none of that makes sense. And I'll tell you why idiopathic means no known cause. We just talked about seven different causes inherited dysbiosis increase in toxins and chemicals. The last hundred years we've had

80 to 100 ,000 new chemicals added to our lives, most of them in our food. And so what you put in your gut, you're going to tell me doesn't affect my gut. That's nonsense. That's number one. So there has to be a cause because we've seen cases, even looking at the data per CDC, about 3 million cases worldwide in 1990. Today it's seven to 8 million. So cases have doubled, almost tripled in the last 30 years. So there has to be a cause. So it can't be unknown. Like they say it is number two.

Michelle (17:08)

Yeah.

Josh Dech - CHN (17:11)

They say that it's just genetic. Well, 50 % of those seven or eight million cases, North America is less than 5 % of the population. They have 50 to 60 % of all the world's cases of bowel diseases. So when 5 % has 50 % in the last 30 years where it's blown up, it cannot just be genetic. That would take thousands of years and most of those things weed themselves out of the gene pool. The last one is it's autoimmune.

Well, looking at the actual antibodies per studies, the ones that we see, even like P. Anka, we call it. This one, 70 % of those with ulcerative colitis will have this antibody. Well, it can be caused by mesalamine, a drug they use to treat Crohn's colitis, by stress, by fungal infections, by other bacterial overgrows, antibiotics. These antibodies, only 40 to 60 % have any antibodies at all. And the ones that do,

can be very well explained by nearly anything else that can go on inside the body, such as dysbiosis states, parasites, infections, antibiotic use, the very drugs in Miran, azathioprine, the ones they use to treat Crohn's and colitis can cause these antibodies. So it can't be autoimmune. And even if it was truly autoimmune, at least 50 % don't have any antibodies at all, but you're treating it like it's autoimmune. So the three pillars they have to stand on, Michelle, to say you need drugs for the rest of your life.

Michelle (18:23)

Wow.

Josh Dech - CHN (18:34)

There's no hope for you. Your life is basically ruined. It's management or we cut the organs out. None of it makes any sense by their own data. And this, this little perspective shift changes everything.

Michelle (18:41)

No.

My God, this is so important. It's so important that people hear this because I think that we just take it for what it is for truth, absolute truth. When we go and I've had, I've had the same situation for my irregular periods, but you know, it could be anything. And then you're going and you get an answer that, you know, just doesn't seem to feel right. And you talk about the possibility to cure diseases. Can all diseases be cured?

Josh Dech - CHN (19:12)

Yeah, it's really interesting because I like to throw that question out there because the word cure is sort of a dirty word in the Western world. It's not something they are. And most doctors are because it's a huge claim to make. I cannot legally in my practice, because I'm not a medical doctor, right? I work with doctors, I'm a physician's consultant, and that's all great, but I'm not a doctor. I cannot legally use the words cure, treat, or heal in the context of what I do. But what I can say is this.

Michelle (19:20)

Yeah, people are afraid of it. Yeah. Yeah.

Josh Dech - CHN (19:43)

I believe all diseases have a root. Disease is not innate to your biology or DNA. We even talk about genetics, right? Let's go back to the genetic weak link of bowel disease. Sure, you get five people in a room, Michelle, you expose everybody to mold. One gets really bad periods. One gets Crohn's or colitis. One gets asthma. One gets Parkinson's disease. Another one gets nothing. Because when your genes are exposed, say dysbiosis, it puts stress on the genetic links, the genetic chain.

When you're toxic or infected, it puts stress. There's a study called neutrogenomics, which is nutrients and genetics and their correlation and reactions together were depleted. So these genes are getting stretched and pulled on the chain. The weak link is the one that snaps first. So there's no doubt there's a genetic component to bowel disease or what you're dealing with, but there are things that are stressing that chain. If you can pull down the stress and give your body what it needs to simply function normally, you're going to be just fine.

Michelle (20:28)

Mm.

Josh Dech - CHN (20:42)

Your body's gonna do what it has to do. It's gonna heal itself. And these quote genetic conditions sort of just go away because they were never really genetic. It was just exploiting what may have been a weak link. You go, well, I had my gene tested. I've got the MTHFR, so I can't methylate. I can't do this. Every form of natural nutrients that comes from the soil, that comes from animal meat, that comes from the earth in any way, your body will use a methylate.

It's all the artificial or fortified versions. It's the folic acid. They spray on the grains and crops. It's not the actual nutrients from earth. It's the artificial stuff you can't use. So don't beat yourself up about it. Just grow your own food.

Michelle (21:11)

Mm -hmm. Right. Correct. Yeah.

Ooh, I love that. It's so true and it's so nice to hear it put in that way for people listening to this that's a huge issue for a lot of people trying to conceive because for so long, they've been having folic acid and also if they're eating grains, even if they don't want folic acid, it's kind of like shoved in our faces. So we're forced to eat it. Yeah.

Josh Dech - CHN (21:41)

Yes, and folic acid is basically poison. I mean, we know, right? Tested like MTHFR, popularized gene, there's a snip in there, changes your morphology, how your genes will activate. 44 % cannot use folic acid, but doctors give folic acid to 100 % of women who are pregnant. Why? If you can't use the folic acid, it actually can cause blood pressure issues. It can cause all kinds of issues, cognitive impairment, anxiety, depressive issues, gut issues.

Michelle (22:02)

Yeah.

Josh Dech - CHN (22:10)

probably fertility issues, right? I can't speak to that one specifically, but I would guess through the chain of events. Well, there you go. So you're being given a drug that almost 50 % of the population can't, I call it a drug because it's artificial, that you cannot use that can cause other health complications. Well, no wonder you have gestational diabetes. No wonder you have hypertension. No wonder you have these, you know, prenatal conditions. The Western world treats pregnancy like a disease state. You are sick. We have to treat you, but it's not.

Michelle (22:14)

Yeah, yeah, it does. For some people, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Josh Dech - CHN (22:40)

In the inflammatory markers you get from pregnancy, all these different things, they're actually normal and they're actually a biological beneficial process, which is also connected to your gut, oddly enough.

Michelle (22:52)

Everything's connected to your gut. So talk to us. It really is. The more I do this, the more I realize this. It's kind of like just everything's the center. Even Chinese medicine, the spleen and stomach are the digestive couple. And every couple, there's like a yin and yang pair of organs. Every one of them has a different direction. The spleen and stomach is the center. It's kind of like where everything comes from.

Josh Dech - CHN (22:54)

All of it.

Mm

Michelle (23:20)

So it really is so important and that's, it really comes down to your gut health. So talk to us about like what people can do and really how like kind of take us through like the inflammatory process or the anti -inflammatory approach to your gut.

Josh Dech - CHN (23:38)

Yeah, first thing is we just have to remove the nail. That's it. You know, your body is reacting to so much and I describe it like this. Picture your body's like a cup of water. I I got a cup of water next to me here. So picture this cup gets full and fuller and fuller. As the cup starts to fill up, you start to develop symptoms. I'm having menstrual issues. I'm having PMS. I'm having some infertility. I'm having some skin issues. I'm not sleeping. I'm having anxiety, depression, gut issues, et cetera. These are the symptoms you develop.

Michelle (23:41)

Mm

Josh Dech - CHN (24:07)

Now when that cup finally overflows, you now go into your doctor and they say, you have this disease. Cause they're looking at everything that's gotten wet. go, yep, this is just a condition you have. The floor is wetiosis. All right. And they go, this is just what it is. We don't look at what led to it. We don't look at what contributed instead. We go, yep, it's just part of your disease process. It's part of your body. Here's some management for your symptoms. This is numbing cream on the foot. That's what it is. Rather than taking the nail out.

Michelle (24:07)

Mm

Josh Dech - CHN (24:35)

And so we're looking at disease, understand something's filling your cup. And this is how we can begin reversing it. Number one, we have to look at one, what is filling the cup? So this is going to go back to your environment, back to your gut, your microbes, that when the defenses came down, the moat was empty. What came into the castle? That's number one. Number two, how do we drain the body? Cause everyone talks about detoxing. You'll hear 10 day detox, seven day detox, 24 hour detox is always something to sensationalize. But there's all these detoxes.

Michelle (25:01)

Mm

Josh Dech - CHN (25:04)

Yes, your body is detoxing constantly on its own and yes, sometimes it can use some support. There's a good reason for that. But something we often miss is called drainage. Detoxing is gathering the trash. Drainage is bringing it out to the curb. So yes, your liver, your kidneys, your bile ducts are one that most people miss, gallbladder and bile ducts. That's one of the most crucial parts of healing and inflammation. We have to look at your skin, your sinuses, your lungs.

Michelle (25:19)

Mm

Josh Dech - CHN (25:31)

Lymphatics, even your blood, these are all drainage or detox pathways. They help move and transport and organize toxins, but also get them out of the body. So sinuses, skin, lymphatics, et cetera. This is drainage. If we don't have this properly supported, I don't care how many parasite protocols you take or antifungal meds you take or how many detoxes you do. If it's not getting out of the body, it's just moving or it's still collecting. And so it's continuing to fill your glass. Right?

Michelle (25:56)

Right.

Josh Dech - CHN (25:58)

Your doctor looks at all the things filling up your glass. They don't use it to figure out what's happening or what's causing it. They use it, what's called diagnostic criteria. So they are looking simply to check the symptoms, do their tests in order to meet what fits this box. Once you have enough checks to color in this box, we then can give you these drugs in this order. If they don't work, snip, snip, here's your surgery. And the idea is again, disease is innate.

Michelle (26:23)

Mm

Josh Dech - CHN (26:25)

You just have these symptoms, therefore you just have this condition. There's nothing we can do. And here's how we'll manage. Rather than looking at your symptoms that led to the disease in reverse engineering the process, what is filling your glass and preventing it from emptying? If Western medicine did that, they'd be bankrupt, which is probably why they don't. Because you're talking the three biggest industries, Michelle, in North America are healthcare, so hospitalization, health insurance, and pharmaceuticals.

It makes up 18 % of the entire US GDP. So 18 % of the entire income of the United States of America is healthcare. Yet they are the sickest country on earth. Six out of 10 adults have some kind of chronic illness or chronic inflammatory condition. Six out of 10, it's $4 .7 trillion a year to manage disease. It'd probably be more like 50 to 100 billion. So pennies on the dollar really, if you actually cured everything.

So there is a huge financial incentive to not actually hear anybody. That's messed up.

Michelle (27:26)

That's so crazy. I mean, I think it's so messed up. I mean, it's really messed up. think a lot of people know this and there's definitely a lot of money moving around between the food industry and the pharmaceuticals, which I mean, you know, like why.

Josh Dech - CHN (27:44)

Yeah, yeah. You get a CEO who goes from Bayer Monsanto, who by the way, just paid out $11 billion with a B, $11 billion in lawsuits because their glyphosate product caused so many cases of cancer. There's over a hundred thousand lawsuits pending. They paid it over 11 billion with another 30 to 40 ,000 lawsuits still pending. And guess what? They're still allowed to use the product. Even though it's been proven hundreds of thousands of times to cause cancer and other dangers.

because super unethical, we live in a horribly unethical system based on lobbying. Get one more for you. There's a chemical called chlorpyrifos. It's an organophosphate. Organophosphates are nerve agents. If you've ever heard of sarin gas, for example, used in the Tokyo subway attacks in the eighties in Syria against the Halabja people, it's a nerve agent. It is a toxin, organophosphates, particularly sarin gas.

Michelle (28:15)

It's so unethical.

Yeah.

Mm

Josh Dech - CHN (28:41)

Well, there's 800 plus organophosphates of the same class, these nerve agents that are used on our food. One recently was re -approved for use called chlorpyrifos just back in November 23 or December 23, was re -approved for use. Well, this was being explored in the 1930s and 40s by Nazi scientists as chemical warfare on humans, but they put it in our food. Then you get people going, well, the poison makes the dose. Okay, I get that. Yeah, if it was.

Michelle (28:47)

Mm

man.

Josh Dech - CHN (29:09)

microns of chlorpyrifos, your body would get rid of it. But we got over a billion pounds of chemicals every year on our food that we consume. We've actually consumed now four times more pesticides per person than we used to in the 90s, because there's so many more of them. The poison that know, the dose makes the poison. Yes. But we've also 17 times our dose, of course, we're so toxic, of course, everyone's poisoned. And so these are the things we have to consider.

Michelle (29:34)

Yeah.

Josh Dech - CHN (29:37)

But circling back, these are the toxins contributing to your glass filling up. So you want to empty the bathtub, turn off the tap, right? So let's put a hole in the toxins. Simple as the clean 15 and dirty dozen list from the EWG, Environmental Working Group. Go organic where you can, or just don't buy it, right? There's a lot of other ways. It doesn't have to have the organic label. I don't buy all organic. There's a farmer's marketing in my house.

Michelle (29:45)

Yeah.

Right.

Josh Dech - CHN (30:02)

And I talked to the farmers, they do one fungicide spray at beginning of the year on the ground, and then all their crops grow. That is a risk reward ratio I'm willing to accept. It's the same price, but there's one spray instead of the average strawberry has like 12 pesticides on it. And so that's what I'm willing to accept for myself. And I will adapt to the rest. And so turn off the tap, start changing out the toxic environment, start making some of these better modifications. One of the top toxins or pollutants for humans is actually recirculated indoor air. Open your windows.

Michelle (30:03)

Mm

Mm

Josh Dech - CHN (30:32)

Just where you can, open them up, let some fresh air come in. And this we can start, this is turning off the tap. Then we can open our drainage and detox pathways. And then we can begin removing the invaders that came into the castle. And then we can begin repairing and rebuilding the walls and everything that was destroyed after these invaders came in. That's sort of the process affectionately typically referred to as the five Rs. There's sort of an acronym we can use in there for that, but that's the idea.

Michelle (30:33)

Hmm, yeah.

Yeah. And a lot of people just say, then I'll just get probiotics. But then I, I'm learning, you know, that not are created equal. So I wanted to get your thoughts on that. Like I just, the different types of probiotics, everything comes out. Another company says, ours is special because of this, that, and the other. Then there's a spore based probiotics, which are more likely to survive our entire tract. So.

Josh Dech - CHN (31:04)

Mm.

Yes.

Michelle (31:26)

I'd love to pick your brain on that.

Josh Dech - CHN (31:29)

I'd love to sure. So spore based probiotics, they're more like seeds, and they're typically coded to get to the large intestine. This is where 90 % of your intestinal bacteria actually live is in the large intestine right where it connects to the small intestine and that whole area there. That's where most of them live. And so the spores will get there the like seeds that plant and grow trees that bear fruit. We have other probiotics, which you're right, not all are made equally, a lot of them will come in, they're dead, but you still can get benefits. If you think about

Let's go to pro, pre and post biotics, right? The three things I think we often get mixed up. I think of it like fish in a fish bowl. Probiotics are the fish, the living organism that swim around in the bowl. Prebiotics are fish food and postbiotics are what the fish poop out. If you look at your bacteria the same, they're your fish in your fish bowl, the living organisms, the probiotics are the fish. This is what moves around and engages with your body. They do so much for you. They produce vitamins and minerals and nutrients.

Michelle (32:04)

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Josh Dech - CHN (32:28)

help balance hormones and detoxify and help with your immune system. They do all kinds of great things, mostly through how they signal to the body. But then your prebiotics are what they eat. So this is going to be your fibers, it's going to be your carbs and starches, some proteins, there's going to be some things that they will consume, which creates the post biotics your body likes, the short chain fatty acids and minerals or the vitamins and all these things. And so we consume probiotics, a lot of them we eat are dead.

So you're still getting the postbiotic or the bacterial poop, if you will, of all the benefits, which come in, come out in a couple of days. It might be very short term and they're kind of out the door, but along the way they can have a lot of really good beneficial signaling to the body, to the immune system. It's like a radio signal. They come in and out beep, beep, beep, beep, they send signals back and forth. Your body makes changes. On the other hand, what a lot of people don't recognize is maybe if you have a condition like SIBO, small intestinal bacterial overgrowth,

Michelle (33:00)

Mm

Mm -hmm.

Josh Dech - CHN (33:25)

you have a bacterial overgrowth. Sometimes adding probiotics in, there are classes of bacteriums called bacteriocins, which will kill bacteria. So they might be beneficial in SIBO. For example, lactobacillus reuteri or rooteri, call it tomato tomata. But this one can act as a bacteriocin has been shown in clinical to be beneficial in a lot of cases for SIBO to reduce the bacteria. On the other hand, some might contribute to the problem. I had a client with parasites.

Michelle (33:42)

Mm

Josh Dech - CHN (33:55)

And she was consuming a lot of probiotics, which were higher in histamines, which contribute to the issue because parasites also can create histamine issues. Even bone broth was bad for her gut because it's high in histamine. And so it made her issues worse. so considering we got probably a thousand, maybe 2000 species, seven to 9 ,000 strains of bacteria makes 15 to 20 million different bacteria. In fact, there's a hundred, think it's 130 times more DNA in your gut bacteria.

Michelle (34:07)

Mm -hmm, right.

Josh Dech - CHN (34:25)

than you actually have in the rest of your body. 23 ,000 genes or so in your human genome, 3 million genes inside of your bacteria. So you take this handful of probiotics out of 3 million different genetic strains, it's like a grain of sand on a beach. It may help, it may not. I wouldn't rely on them as a fix all. And there's a lot of ways in there where you can actually cause more problems. You could put black sand on a white beach and you're gonna notice it until it gets mixed in and disperses enough. It can create a problem. And so we have to really

Michelle (34:39)

Yeah, yeah.

Josh Dech - CHN (34:54)

keep an eye on what we're putting into our body. I think throwing probiotics in sort of willy -nilly can lead to a lot of issues.

Michelle (35:02)

Yeah. What about a Sporebase, which are better for SIBO? What are your thoughts on that?

Josh Dech - CHN (35:07)

Well, spore based, see they're better for SIBO. I've heard that as well. I think my initial thought is look, they get to the large intestine, less so the small intestine. So we're not contributing to the small intestinal issues. But one of the contributors I do see of SIBO, for example, would be parasites. They tend to hang in the bile ducts, like we talked about there, the all important drainage pathways in the liver of the appendix and what's called the ileocecal valve. So right where your small and large intestine will actually connect.

Michelle (35:16)

Mm

Mm

Mm -hmm.

Josh Dech - CHN (35:37)

Parasites can hang out in these issues actually messing with your valves. So even if you have spores going into the large intestine, they can still backflow because the valves will say are broken or jacked up can get into the small intestine. And a lot of SIBO conditions are fecal microbes. So large bowel microbes getting into the small intestine where they should not be. And these areas can cause a lot of problems now too. So I don't know if I'd say they're better for or maybe just less bad then, but maybe it can contribute to the problem. It's hard to say.

Michelle (35:40)

Mm.

Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Josh Dech - CHN (36:07)

But ultimately, know, SIBO is a really nasty condition to have to deal with, but I've seen it as one of the roots that can develop into Crohn's or colitis as well, other bowel diseases.

Michelle (36:17)

Wow. And what about parasites? So what are some of the things that you can do to, because a lot of times you won't see that in like more generic tests.

Josh Dech - CHN (36:27)

Yeah, they're very difficult to detect parasites. Even some of the best testing you'll get for stool testing, you're 40 % accurate unless you're finding ovum, live worms or protozoa eggs, et cetera. You know, there's about a million different types of parasites estimated that are available on planet earth. About 1400 can infect humans and you know, it's like, well, I've taken ivermectin or I've taken babendazole or fembendazole some kind of Zol, which is supposed to be good for parasites and they can be.

Michelle (36:35)

Mm

Josh Dech - CHN (36:55)

But of the 1400 types, you might not be targeting more than three or four. And again, if your drainage pathways aren't open, you're not really going to be successfully clearing stuff. And so we're looking at parasites. say testing is relatively inaccurate. We have to go by symptoms and even blood, blood chemistry. It's not something I'm an expert in, but I do know people who are very proficient in what's called functional blood chemistry. Well, they'll look at your blood work and go, definitely you have a parasite and here's where I think it is or what type I think it is, which

To me is like wizardry. I just have no idea. I'm not that good at blood work, but it's really amazing art. so testing is not amazing for them. Most doctors believe parasites are a third world problem because that's what they were told 20 years ago in med school. But look what we have, the level of immigration we have, the level of import export we have, the level of accessibility for traveling all around the world that we have. Maybe if they used to be, but they're everywhere now to the point where if you've got a pulse, you probably got a parasite.

Michelle (37:32)

Mm

Mm

Josh Dech - CHN (37:51)

The question is, it causing you a problem right now or not? Because parasites, fungi, bacteria, viruses, they all live in harmony in a healthy gut. With great great grandmothers, 1000 microbes. But now we've got 200 microbes, this dysbiotic state, these opportunistic parasites or fungi or bacteria now overgrow because they have the room to do so. Nothing's keeping them in check. And now they're a problem. So this isn't to say parasites are all bad. Sometimes they're very, very good.

Michelle (38:19)

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Josh Dech - CHN (38:21)

but they're now becoming problematic because we're all so sick.

Michelle (38:24)

So what do you do and what are some of the symptoms that people can have?

Josh Dech - CHN (38:28)

so many. So we look at parasites, again, going through symptomatology, I like that we bring this through, because symptoms often speak louder than testing. That's something you have to keep in mind. Again, a parasite test at 40 % accuracy can come back negative 10 times in a row. So we have to look at, you know, abdominal pain. Do you have pain when you palpate or press around the liver, the gallbladder? Do you have all your organs? So looking at tonsils, appendix, gallbladder, if you've lost those, there may be a parasite route.

Michelle (38:38)

Mm

Mm

Josh Dech - CHN (38:58)

back pain, hip pain, like joint pains, seasonal allergies or other allergies that seem to come up. If you have gut issues and gut symptoms, for example, that may be come and go. So every couple of weeks up and then they're down or seasonally, for example, this could be parasites due to their life cycles, high cholesterol or liver enzymes that are elevated, frequent sinus infections, anemia, because parasites will actually eat iron. They can eat

like lungs, liver, kidneys, they can eat iron, they can eat lymphatic fluids if you've got lymphatic issues, mumps chronically, tonsillitis chronically, these can be parasitic issues in nature. Even infertility. Parasites love especially female reproductive organs. So PCOS can sometimes be a parasitic issue at the root or a metabolic issue which may have a parasitic component because parasites can get to these areas in your body.

actually encapsulate them in a cyst or a tumor, hence cancers, which is actually a protective mechanism or thought to be protective, where it's trying to enclose these things in rather than DNA mutating and causing a problem. We can have anxiety, depression, hair loss, early hair loss, liver enzymes are elevated, think I mentioned that, psoriasis, eczema, really classic symptoms, rashes and hives, that's just a handful. There's probably 50 or 60 symptoms that could be parasites.

but we have to go back to context. You know, have rashes and hives, okay, well could be something else. There could be parasites. Let's look at the rest of the symptoms. I'm not saying if you have one of these things or all these things, I mean, if you have all these things, probably parasites, but if you just have a few, it could be something else, but I wouldn't rule parasites out.

Michelle (40:34)

Mm

And what do you usually do to treat them?

Josh Dech - CHN (40:43)

Great question. This is something that can be very finicky. Again, a lot of people I talk to, you're hearing this going, I've taken a parasite protocol, I've done a cleanse, it didn't help. You're trying to evict tenants from the building. Are the doors unlocked? And so if you're trying to get rid of parasites, is your drainage open? So we have to work on drainage support. What we do with clients, it's a combination of a lot of things. There's supplementation, there's nutritional, there's lifestyle. Sometimes it's a combination of acupuncture enemas, like coffee enemas.

Michelle (40:57)

Mm

Mm

Josh Dech - CHN (41:13)

There's a lot of different things we can utilize the open drainage pathways, but everyone's different. And it's something that it really should be done on a supervision. I know you're hearing this right now. Go, I can do that. I can do acupuncture might help you. It might not. It is, but I don't want you putting yourself in the hospital. I have to say that because we can move too many toxins too quickly. You can actually create a commonly known Herc's Heimer reaction, Herc's H -R -X. And this Herc's Heimer reaction is just

Michelle (41:13)

Mm

Mm

Yeah, that's important.

Yeah.

Josh Dech - CHN (41:41)

Basically, you're taking too many toxins, you're mobilizing them and your body can't get rid of them properly and you're making yourself very ill. So this is definitely a professional supervision issue, but these are things we can do. So number one is drainage in tandem with or post actually getting rid of or reducing your toxic loads for no longer, right? Turn off the tap. We have to open the drainage pathway so things can get out. We have to begin removing very systematically the problem. I've got clients say 10 of them who are taking the exact same parasite protocol for parasites.

Michelle (41:45)

Mm -hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

Josh Dech - CHN (42:11)

but what they're actually doing is that they're taking them 10 different ways, right? Some of them are tapering in one day on, seven off, one day on, six off, one and five. Some are doing full moon protocol. Some are high dose, some are low. Some are cycling through. Some are consistent dosing. Everyone's different based on their presentations and going the wrong way can make people very, very sick as well. So it's a bit of a tailored and catered process, but the gist would be drainage support.

antiparasitic, supporting what your body lacks or needs, mitochondrial support, so cellular health and cellular well -being, because that's really where drainage and detoxing starts, is at the cellular level, not the macro level so much. And this is sort of a brief overview of that might look like.

Michelle (42:55)

So interesting. And another question that I have, a lot of times you'll hear about the keto diet and how I'm not big on fad diets in general, because it's like everything's customized, but you hear about the benefits for some people. The thing with that is that there's barely any fiber. It's really, really low in fiber. So I just wanted to get your take on that.

Josh Dech - CHN (43:05)

Sure.

Sure. It was really interesting. Look at someone like Michaela Peterson, right? Does an amazing job with the lion diet, which is basically red meat, salt and water. I am not against it. I think it's a great therapeutic diet. I'm not sold entirely. I've met with some amazing carnivore doctors and specialists, but I will say I don't believe plants are inherently bad for humans. I do believe an animal based diet tends to be better, but the question has to be asked, is it the pesticides and the chemicals on our food that makes plants the problem?

Is it plants themselves? Is it the GMOs and the crops that never existed even 100 or 500 years ago that were not accustomed to eating? The arguments can be made for dairy, where humans have only really domesticated dairy animals for 10 to 15 ,000 years. So are we really adapted to eating dairy? Have we developed or evolved these enzymes and processes to properly assimilate dairy? So the argument about plants versus animal -based

I can put it on a very macro level without getting to the nitty gritty and say this. The bigger fish in the bowl, we talked about prebiotics, they eat fiber, right? The bigger fish in the fish bowl will eat first. If you have an overgrowth of bad bacterium, we'll say, we'll say opportunistic, they're causing you problems and they eat first, they poop out problematic things. So going to the lion diet, you're not gonna get nearly as many microbes eating meat, for example, as they would fibers or starches or sugars. So if you cut those things out right away,

you've reduced the poop or the byproducts, we call them endotoxins of these microbes by simply cutting fiber. And so you may be starving some out, you may be just not getting over gross, you may be no longer contributing to poisons or toxins so much. And there's two arguments to be made. Well, the beef or the animal might filter the toxins. The other argument is what's called bio magnification, which is where it condenses all these toxins in the tissues, which you then consume. But you can't argue with the data, millions of people.

Michelle (44:49)

Mm

Mm

Josh Dech - CHN (45:15)

all over the world go carnivore or keto and feel better. The question is, do I believe carbs are inherently bad for you? No. Do I believe they should be more sparingly? Yes, just simply biologically. but, but, but this is the big but, we have to understand that your current state of health and how it's utilizing what you're putting into it makes all the difference. You could put gasoline into a car and it's going to drive for miles. You put gasoline into a car that's on fire and it's going to make a bigger fire.

Michelle (45:19)

Mm

Mm

Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Josh Dech - CHN (45:45)

So it's not the fuel source necessarily that I believe is the problem as much as the body you're putting it into and what's going on on a microbial level.

Michelle (45:51)

Yes. that's so important. And I think that, yeah, a lot of what you're saying is so important, but that's really the key crux of it is that your body and your body's condition and your snapshot in time at this moment has unique needs, even unique to five years ago, the same body, which actually it's a different body because the body changes all the time. So it is really important that you work with somebody.

Josh Dech - CHN (46:04)

Yeah.

Michelle (46:17)

and not do this at home on your own and not self -diagnose because it could be very tempting to do. This is great information, but just hold yourself back from self -diagnosing. Reach out to people like Josh. So actually my next question, if people do want to work with you, how can they reach you? How can they find out more about your work and what you do and get help with their own gut and inflammation?

Josh Dech - CHN (46:19)

Yes.

Yeah, I'd love to be able to help Michelle. The quickest way to reach me, you can find everything you need through our website, gutsolution .ca. We got clients in 26 different countries and all the concurrent time zones. So don't worry about where you're located. We can help. That's gutsolution, all singular, .ca for Canada. You can find our podcast, Reversible, where it's about the gut. It's all how all things impact the gut and vice versa. Michelle, we had you record an episode there recently and it's how our gut and our world interact. It's called Reversible.

Reverse Able, the Ultimate Gut Health podcast. And there's also one we released recently about, I'd say six or eight weeks ago, it's called Reversing Crohn's and Colitis Naturally. And it's all about just Crohn's, Colitis and the cruxes and the roots and how we actually get at the root causes of these. But all that can be found, the website, the podcast, contact, help information can all be found at gutsolution .ca.

Michelle (47:37)

And how do you work with people?

Josh Dech - CHN (47:38)

Yeah, contrary to what most people believe, we don't actually need to see you in person at all. Strictly through symptoms, I get photos if we need them. We'll have you take pictures of your fingernails, pictures of your tongue, for example. It's part of Chinese medicine, as you know, can give us lots of information. We look at blood work. We'll look at your symptoms. We'll look at you as an individual. And we'll spend, I'll spend 30 minutes to an hour on a first call. We get someone through the program and register. There's probably 100, 200 different questions.

Michelle (47:49)

Mm

Mm

Josh Dech - CHN (48:08)

Extremely thorough intake we do secondary interviews then we do programming and we actually work with you on a weekly basis for 16 weeks very hand -holding process and that's what it looks like because Dealing with bowel disease, know that things can change in an instant You can go from healthy to a flare or healthy to sick to constipation to diarrhea What your doctor does is here's a med see me in three to six months. We'll see how you're doing That doesn't help. You're barely managing and your body can be so finicky

Michelle (48:33)

Mm Yeah. Yeah.

Josh Dech - CHN (48:37)

And so our job is 16 weeks. And I'll tell you, Michelle, we had a lady recently came out of our program was working not with myself, actually, with Curtis, one of our other specialists. And 16 weeks, she came out after 15 years. She was diagnosed in 2013, a couple of years of bowel disease before that. Her colon was so severe, she described it as squirrels with razor blades running around on her insides. So severe, they were on the cusp of cutting her bowels out. 16 weeks, she came back, her doctors jaw on the floor is like, I've never seen anything like this.

Michelle (48:58)

my God, wow. Yeah.

Josh Dech - CHN (49:06)

perfect colonoscopy. had one little speck left that we're still obviously going to be fixing, but it took 16 weeks. That's it. And not everybody responds as well. Some respond quicker, but this is what's possible. And I just really want to encourage just if you're listening to this right now, you're like, I've got Crohn's colitis or even severe IBS. I've been told it's genetic autoimmune. There's no known cause. So much can be done. Just start with the website. There's podcasts on there. There's information on that. There's videos on there.

Michelle (49:14)

Wow.

Yeah.

Josh Dech - CHN (49:35)

There's so much about it that we just want to creak that door open for you and show you what's possible. But again, just head to gut solution .ca and do some diving.

Michelle (49:44)

Awesome. Josh, this is amazing. Really, really amazing. And also so important. I can't even stress it enough. I see it a lot even in my patients that come in. and something that I think everybody listening to this, if you're trying to conceive,

you have to go check out Josh and listen to his podcast and learn more because I think it's just so valuable. So thank you so much for coming on today. This is great.

Josh Dech - CHN (50:07)

Thank you.

It's been a pleasure, Michelle. And if I could leave one little nugget, if you're considering, if you're trying to conceive or have plans in the future, get ahead of the gut because you can, we talked about great grandma passing down this dysbiosis to you, you can pass down disease to your children. It'll be called genetic. I've seen babies, know, infants. I'm talking a couple of months to two, three years old with bowel disease because we just didn't know ahead of time that we need to be dealing with our gut issues before having children.

because these are the issues we can pass. All those opportunistic microbes, the fungi and parasites, they will come from you to your baby. And this goes both ways. The sperm quality has a lot more to do with it than we used to. We used to say, well, everything's up to mom. It is in development, but even the sperm quality, if mom or dad have gut issues, there's a much higher risk for your baby having some kind of issue down the road. And I just really want to encourage you, if you think there might be gut stuff where you know there's a diagnosis, start there.

long before conception, only will it help in your ability to conceive but to carry a baby to full term and have a healthy baby to give them the best possible future. That's where we start. We have to start in your guts.

Michelle (51:20)

So important. Thank you so much, Josh.

Josh Dech - CHN (51:23)

A pleasure, Michelle. Thank you for having me.

EP 308 Can This Natural Compound be the Key to Reversing Your Reproductive Age? Leslie Kenny

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I speak to longevity expert Leslie Kenny. @lesliesnewprime

Leslie shares her personal journey of overcoming autoimmune diseases and infertility through patient empowerment and alternative therapies. She emphasizes the importance of partnering with doctors and exploring alternative treatments that resonate with individuals. Leslie's story highlights the power of lifestyle changes, such as an anti-inflammatory diet and the use of anti-aging molecules like spermidine in improving health and reversing the aging process. 

Our conversation covers the topic of spermidine and its role in healthy aging. Spermidine is a compound found in our diet and produced by our gut biome. It is correlated with healthy lifespan and can be obtained from plants and fermented foods. Our conversation also touches on gluten-free options for spermidine, the importance of fiber in the diet, and the potential benefits of systemic enzymes. 

Leslie also shared her personal experience with hypothyroidism and the importance of finding a doctor who will help you uncover solutions for your reproductive health. 

Podcast Takeaways:

• Partnering with doctors and exploring alternative treatments can empower patients to take control of their health.

• Lifestyle changes, such as an anti-inflammatory diet, can have a significant impact on autoimmune diseases and overall health.

• Anti-aging molecules like spermidine and rapamycin have the potential to slow down the aging process and improve fertility.

• Maintaining a balanced hormonal system is crucial for reproductive health and overall well-being.

• Spermidine can promote cell renewal and recycling. Spermidine is correlated with healthy lifespan and can be obtained from plants and fermented foods.

• Fiber is important for the gut biome to produce spermidine.

• Finding a doctor who believes in you and is willing to explore your symptoms is crucial.

Guest Bio:

Leslie is a longevity expert, and co-founder of the prestigious Oxford Longevity Project, a non-profit that brings scientists together to discuss breakthroughs around the science of ageing and autophagy, which is our body's natural cell recycling system.

www.oxfordhealthspan.com - Use coupon code WHOLESOMELOTUS for 15% off all items!

https://www.instagram.com/lesliesnewprime/

https://oxfordlongevityproject.org

Learn more about my new book “The Way of Fertility” here: https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

Transcript:

Michelle (00:00)

Welcome to the podcast Leslie.

Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (00:02)

Thanks so much for having me, Michelle. It's a pleasure.

Michelle (00:05)

So I would love for you to share your story of how you got into the work that you do today. And I know that you're very passionate. We just had a little pre -talk and I'm very excited to get started.

Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (00:14)

You

Well, my story is one of patient empowerment, just like you. And it started, as it can with many women, with a fertility quest. So in my mid to late 30s, I really wanted to have a baby and found that I was having problems. So started with IUI, did three of those, didn't work, and then moved on to IVF.

And it was as I was doing my fifth IVF round with donor eggs, I might add, and being mixed race, I'll tell you, it's not easy to find a donor, you know? And it was a high stakes game, as it were. And right before embryo transfer, I began to notice pain in my hands. I was having trouble.

Michelle (00:54)

Mm

Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (01:08)

using scissors, turning doorknobs, turning faucets. And I just thought, strange, I think this is probably what arthritis feels like. I better just have it checked out since obviously I want this IVF with donor eggs to go perfectly. And I went to the doctor, she ran some tests. I thought, you know, they'd say, you know, it's something, have steroids do something that I'd heard of before. And instead she called me and asked me to have a meeting with her in her office.

Michelle (01:17)

Mm

Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (01:38)

and always a bad sign, right? If they can't explain it to you over the phone, and if it's not the nurse telling you, there's nothing to worry about. So I went and talked to her and she said, you do have arthritis, it's rheumatoid arthritis. This is where your body is attacking your joints. And here are some pre -filled syringes that you can inject into your belly, they're immune suppressants to basically

Michelle (01:40)

Yeah.

Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (02:08)

halt your immune system from attacking your body. And, and I immediately said, Hmm, don't I want my immune system to be strong? Like, don't I need that? And she said, well, normally you would, but in this case, it looks like your body is fighting cancer, except you're trying to destroy your own tissues. So I thought, okay, well, fine. Got the drugs. these are tiny diabetic needles. It'll be okay.

And then she said, but you also have something else. You have lupus. And that I'd never heard of. It was almost as if she'd said, you you have funny tree disease or something. It just made no sense to me. I didn't know what it was, had never heard of it. And I said, what's that? And she said, another autoimmune disease. And I said, okay, so what's the prescription for that?

And she said, unfortunately, there isn't a prescription for that. There's really nothing that we have right now to treat it. And you will slowly and progressively get worse. And I said, this is really not a good time for me to have this happen because I'm doing my fifth IVF with donor eggs. I'm waiting for embryo transfer. This is a terrible time. Can't we do something?

something else, anything else? Is there anything I can do? No, there's nothing you can do. Like, could I do my diet, my sleep? No, there's nothing you can do. Well, but what about this round? You know, I've done a lot to tee this up and a lot of money has gone into this. As you probably know, I've put in over a hundred thousand US dollars at this point in time into all of these treatments. And she said, I wouldn't do it. Don't do it.

you have a good five years left. And I thought, okay, well, that's a big statement to make. And I was so gobsmacked by it.

Michelle (04:08)

That's crazy.

Wait, wait, She was saying you have five years left to live? Is that what she was saying?

Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (04:16)

That's how I interpreted it. That's how I interpreted that if I, if this was successful, if this round was successful, I would only be able to parent this child for five years or four years, I guess, as it were. And I, it was a lot to process. you know, if you're a patient and you're told you have one thing that's a lot to take on, you know, and then you're thinking about.

the treatment protocol and the things you have to do. And I think already, if it's not a tablet to swallow, but you're injecting yourself, that's another big thing to take on board. Then an illness that you've never heard of before where they say there's no treatment, there's no cure, and then she says five years left. I'm thinking in the back of my mind, thinking, have this, I want to become a mother. I have this.

cycle I have to go through, we're going to embryo transfer. My uterus has to be in good shape. What are you doing? What are you saying? How does this impact that? Because I've got acupunctures lined up for embryo transfer, right, before and after. And so I did have at least the presence of mind to say to her, can I, well, could this be a false positive? She said, no, we've done multiple types of tests.

Michelle (05:11)

Yeah.

Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (05:35)

and they all come back consistently indicating that you have these diseases. So then I said, can I test again? And she said, she shrugged her shoulders and said, sure, it's your insurance. So I vowed then and there that I would test again. And in the meantime, I would do everything possible. didn't matter what it was, whether it was my in uterine massage, which I did, or visualization, which I did.

Michelle (06:00)

Mm -hmm.

Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (06:05)

or trauma work, which I did, or, you know, new therapy, intravenous immunoglobulin transfusions, which I did, an anti-inflammatory diet. I was gonna do it all. I was gonna throw the kitchen sink at it. And any woman who is trying to get pregnant knows exactly where I was and that feeling of, I've gotta make this happen. And I will just pull out all the stops. We're doing a full court press, right? And...

And so I did all those things and I came back within six months for a regular sort of review with your doctor. She opened the folder and she clearly not looked at the results ahead of time. And she said, well, look at that. You, don't have lupus and you don't have RA. And I said, would you like to know what I did? And she said, no, that's okay.

Michelle (06:54)

What?

Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (07:04)

And I said, well, that is, you know, that's pretty, that's pretty groundbreaking, right?

Michelle (07:11)

Yeah,

Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (07:12)

so in any event, I was so, I was so shocked by all of this and, really for me, the penny dropped that doctors don't know everything that we treat them as if they must, that they are the Oracle and that they are the, the guide to whom we can outsource our health problems.

Michelle (07:23)

Mm

Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (07:35)

But in fact, we have to work in partnership with them. And sometimes they're not willing for insurance or liability reasons to talk about or consider alternative therapies that might work. But we patients have the opportunity to explore those things that resonate with us that might have a meaningful impact. so my journey has really begun

Michelle (07:38)

Yes.

Mm

Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (08:04)

as a patient advocate, really telling other women, you have more power than you think to move the needle on your health. And as a matter of fact, the things that you do might even be more important than what happens when you go to your acute care doctor, right? When you go into the doctor's office or into a hospital. And it has then...

taken me on a journey all the way to Oxford, England, where I ended up meeting a wonderful group of scientists here, a number of whom I helped fundraise for their companies for, all in the regenerative medicine space, and some of whom I've worked on longevity, healthy longevity advocacy.

other scientists whom I've worked on to bring an interesting anti -aging molecule called spermidine to market. So those are the...

Michelle (09:04)

Yes. Is that, that's, that comes from

Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (09:10)

We can get it from wheat germ. We can get it from mushrooms. can get it from a huge variety of foods that are all plants. Essentially, if you want spermidine, it's almost exclusively in plants. only animal source is chicken liver, which is ironic because, of course, I remember my mother saying, you have to eat chicken liver. So moms do know, right? They've got a wisdom.

Michelle (09:19)

Mm

Mm -hmm.

Yes.

Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (09:36)

But it comes from plant sources. We also make it in our tissues. We moms make it in our breast milk. When we give it to our babies, it's there to help them grow. Men, of course, make it in their seminal fluid. is in there because DNA wraps itself around spermidine. And it's very tightly wound.

Michelle (10:00)

Mm

Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (10:04)

Normally DNA is wrapped around something called histone bond. It's too big to really fit into semen. And it's also there in semen as an anti -inflammatory because it turns out that when men make sperm, it's a high reactive oxygen species event. Women and men can both make it in our gut biome as well. so those would be the main, the three sources would be from our tissue production.

Michelle (10:27)

Mm

Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (10:33)

And that falls, that declines dramatically similar to the decline in production of estradiol, progesterone, testosterone, melatonin as we get older. And then the second area is the microbiome and then third is from our food.

Michelle (10:51)

So interesting. So let's go back and talk about what, what do you think it was specifically that changed? Like, what do you think happened with your body? Because you came into the doctor and you had all the signs that showed that you had two different autoimmune diseases that she could pick up. And then you changed your diet, you changed your lifestyle. You really went through so much. and of course it's hard sometimes to figure out exactly what specifically, but now that you know what you know, and this is

Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (11:03)

Yeah.

Yum, yum.

Michelle (11:21)

the work that you're doing. What are some of the things that come to mind?

Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (11:22)

Hmm.

I went on an anti -inflammatory diet. So one of the first things I did was I researched a lot about both of these illnesses and I could see that inflammation was part of the root cause. And I'd heard about a diet called the Zone Anti -inflammatory Diet. This was popular in the early 2000s. And so I did that and that had a high emphasis on omega -3fatty acids.

on extra virgin olive oil. These are anti -inflammatories. It had a high emphasis on plants. And so my diet changed dramatically from more meat and charcuterie, sort of salami, these types of things over to plants. I also eliminated things which were known to be inflammatory triggers for me. So I had an allergy test done.

I could see that dairy was a problem, gluten was a problem, eggs happened to be a problem, which was a shame because I loved eggs. But we can't eat them every day and think the body won't notice. We have to kind of mix it up and have a diverse diet. So I essentially removed the inflammatory triggers to the immune system. I added in things that were naturally anti -inflammatory, like the omega -3s. And at the same time, when I did the intravenous immunoglobulin,

Michelle (12:44)

you

Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (12:50)

I reset my immune system and there were studies in, there were small groups of patients with both rheumatoid arthritis and lupus who had done IVIG already in 2004 when I was diagnosed and I could see it work for them and I sort of felt like I have nothing to lose. It's kind of this or I wait for the inevitable.

And I did have people tell me, don't do the IVIG, because this was the time of mad cow disease. And people were quite concerned about prions, these proteins in blood plasma. And they were worried that you might be able to get that or hepatitis C. These were things that had been transmitted through transfusion products previously. But I still felt that, what, five years?

Michelle (13:25)

Mm

Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (13:49)

I have nothing to lose. So I'm so glad that I did do that. know that everyone has to weigh up the risk -benefit analysis of any new treatment and their own situation. But for me, that was a decision that I made, and I'm so glad I did, because I spent 20, my insurance company spent $24 ,000 US on two transfusions, eight hours in total. And I have

Michelle (13:52)

Mm

Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (14:19)

Going into remission meant that I have foregone over a million US dollars worth of immune suppressing drugs or chemo drugs because often we autoimmune patients get moved on to methotrexate, which is a chemo drug. I've not had to do any of those over these 20 years. And of course, I also don't live in pain and I don't.

Michelle (14:29)

Mm Right.

Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (14:45)

live in fear of because I'm suppressing my immune system, I have to avoid social situations where people might have a cold and give it to me and compromise my immune system. So it was a fantastic outcome for me. It's not one I think a lot of people hear about, but I think they should.

Michelle (15:06)

for sure. I mean, it's good to hear everything. And I agree with you that everybody has to really assess their own personal situation. I think, I believe in the innate intuition that's kind of like our body's intelligence speaking to us, just like it does when we have an allergy or we feel some things off when we eat something. So I think that that is a really important component to that. And it's the thing that spoke to you when you were at your doctor's office, because it,

Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (15:20)

Yeah, agreed.

Yeah.

Michelle (15:36)

You could have just said, okay, I'm going to completely bypass any questions that I have and fully just accept everything that I'm given. But something inside of you said, wait, hold up. Let me just do this again. Let me look at this. me think about this. So I really believe in that. think that is so important and important for people to hear because so often we do that. We bypass our own internal judgment and knowing.

You said something important is partnering up with your provider so that it's not an all or nothing. Of course you're going to utilize and you did, you got benefit from getting those tests because that woke you up to doing so many new and amazing things in your own life and implementing a better diet and so on. As far as Omega -3 goes, this is just something that I've been hearing of late.

that some of the supplements go rancid and that it makes it worse. it, have you heard about that?

Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (16:36)

Yeah, I've heard that. Yeah, and apparently what you need to do is take this supplement and put it into the freezer. And if it gets cloudy, that is what I've heard is that then that's not good. It's supposed to remain clear throughout. I'm not an omega -3 fatty acid expert. I have lived for a number of years, very nearby one here in Oxford, Professor John Stein.

Michelle (16:45)

Mm

Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (17:05)

who's done a lot of the research on mental health issues and omega -3s and how important they are for brain health. But yeah, I think, you know, get it from your diet first and foremost. Fatty fish is a great source, right? Yeah. Salmon, if we, you haven't already eaten all of it. Yeah.

Michelle (17:18)

Right. Good fish. Yeah.

Wild caught, yeah. Yeah, I know. It's so crazy. Well, also just the mercury in some of the salmon, you know, the chemicals, but wild caught, I always say just.

Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (17:33)

Yeah, wild caught. Yeah. And also anchovies, mackerel, sardines, right? The small fish are a really good source of omega -3 fatty acids. And those tend not to have the mercury. Obviously, if we're trying to get pregnant, mercury, definitely not your friend. So yeah.

Michelle (17:38)

Sardines, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, for sure. I always say, you know, if you're not going to have it when you're pregnant and if you don't have it when you're trying to get pregnant because tuna, for example, they always caution not to have that because of the high mercury, but you don't want that in your system if you're trying to conceive. So for I was very intrigued by your story and I was also intrigued by what you do because when you think about egg quality, sperm quality and really reproduction,

Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (18:02)

Yum. Yum.

Hmm.

Michelle (18:18)

you think anti -aging, that's like ultimately anti -aging in a nutshell. Like that's really what I do for people that I work with. And it benefits me because I'm like, okay, you know, I'm just going to apply a lot of these things as I learn. it definitely, but that's what it is. It's anti -aging. Like I'm big on meditation, which has also been shown take our clocks back, but food and diet and certain supplements,

Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (18:20)

Mm -hmm. 100%. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah.

Michelle (18:46)

can actually shift and slow down your aging or sometimes even like reverse your biological clock. And I know you're the expert in this specific topic. So I'd love for you to talk about that and what has been discovered and seen in this subject.

Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (18:57)

Sure.

So when we are at our peak health is when we are reproductively capable. And we visually know this when we go out and we see a woman with glossy long hair, with long eyelashes, with healthy radiant skin, of healthy body weight, we know that that is someone who is

who is really attractive and why are they attractive? Because they are at their reproductive height. And interestingly, all of the things I have described are also linked with your spermidine levels. And so that's quite interesting. But also, your hormones are in perfect balance when you can reproduce and that includes not just the usual female sex hormones,

Michelle (19:36)

Mm

Mmm.

Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (20:01)

but also your thyroid hormones. So I'm also a Hashimoto's survivor as well. And so I'm a hypothyroid patient and that is also really important. So it's got to be in perfect balance then. And one of the things that happens with some of these anti -aging molecules is that they extend fertility.

Michelle (20:07)

Mm

Mm

Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (20:28)

partly by reversing your age, but they will start the reproductive cycle back up for some people. And it kind of depends how far away from menopause you are. But we've certainly had clients who've said, what happened? I've been in menopause for two years and I've gotten my cycle back. And...

On the one hand, want to say, congratulations, that's great. But they're thinking, this means I can't wear white trousers now, right? And I thought I was done with the pads and the tampons. So I know it's a little bit of a double -edged sword. We women are often thinking about, how do we get rid of our cycles? But in fact, they are nature's way of saying that we are in peak health and are capable of bringing another life into this world.

Michelle (20:55)

Hahaha

Yeah.

Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (21:22)

You know, we do have to bear that in mind. Of course, the same is true for men. And we know there's a problem with testosterone declining in young men, whether it's due to endocrine disruptors in our food and our water supply, toxins in the air. There is a challenge to men as well. And we do want to see them at their reproductive best in order to be at optimum health, too.

And that is also something that these geroprotectors, these senolytic drugs, these anti -aging molecules can do. They seem to restore fertility in men as well as women.

Michelle (22:03)

Amazing. And so let's break it down for people who have never heard of these molecules and these supplements and spermidine. So take a step by step, like, so that people listening can understand what it is.

Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (22:07)

Yeah.

Sure. OK. Well, first, me just say that there are scientists believe that there are 12 reasons why we get older. And these are known as the hallmarks of aging. And they include things that you and your listeners will have heard of before, things like inflammation, leaky gut, stem cell exhaustion or dysfunction, mitochondrial dysfunction.

So, you know, where you have no energy. Telomere shortening. So telomeres are at our in caps and they limit the number of times that we can replicate ourselves. So all of these reasons why we get older, scientists have looked at different molecules that can inhibit those, you know, us going down those pathways. And they have a list of these molecules that

inhibit certain numbers of molecules. And the two that do the most are one called rapamycin, which is a bacteria, and the other one is spermidine, which we manufacture ourselves, like I said, in our gut, in our tissues, and also we get from food. But importantly, it is found in both breast milk and in sperm, and it's so necessary for the survival

the start and survival of the next generation, that it's also in the endosperm of all plants. So these two molecules, rapamycin and spermidine are kind of the darlings of the anti -aging set. And one of spermidine's superhero powers is that it activates cell renewal and recycling.

So if we think about staying in perfect health, one of the first things we want to do is make sure that we can do is every day oven cleaning, right? And the cells do have that function. Maintenance, exactly, exactly. Now, when we're young, it happens naturally and we don't think anything of it, but as we begin to age, that process falters and the cells, the dysfunctional cells,

Michelle (24:16)

Mm -hmm. It's a maintenance.

Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (24:32)

which we call senescent cells, they begin to stack up. And the more of these senescent or zombie cells that we have, the less well the other cells function. And I sometimes say that these zombie cells are a bit like your uncle Ted who has too much to drink at a wedding, and he begins to say inappropriate things.

Michelle (24:45)

Mm

you

Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (24:56)

and do really silly stunts and you just think, okay, we got to get Ted over with pot of coffee in the corner away from everybody else or he's going to ruin the party for everyone else. This is what senescent cells do to you. You have one senescent cell and it begins to leak inflammatory contents to the other cells nearby and zombie -izes them and does the same to the other cells. It's a cascade effect.

Michelle (25:09)

Mm.

Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (25:25)

That is what spermidine can actually, one of the things it can help with in particular with immune cells, it can prevent those immune cells, well rather it can rejuvenate senescent immune cells and that is the work that was done at the University of Oxford.

Michelle (25:43)

That's amazing. you moved there to work with them in the research?

Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (25:48)

Well, I came here anyway. I came here because my ex, now sadly my ex, but we have two wonderful children together. He was from Oxford and moved here to be closer to his family and still close to them and absolutely fell in love with the town and just the vibe. University towns are definitely my kind of place.

Michelle (26:09)

Hmm. That's nice.

Mm

Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (26:18)

Just the scientific rigor here in the life sciences, it's phenomenal. It's really impressive.

Michelle (26:29)

That's amazing. so the two things you're saying are spermidine and rapamycin. and so spermidine is something that you could take from supplements, but not so much rapamycin.

Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (26:39)

You can't, no, not rapamycin, no. It's not something you're going to find in food. So it was basically isolated on Rapa Nui, which is one of the Eastern islands. And one of the pharmaceutical company, a researcher basically took it back home to the United States and it was later researched and found to do.

some really amazing things, one of which is that it can suppress the immune system. And this is important for people who have organ transplants because the tissue match is not perfect and their bodies necessarily want to reject any foreign material in their bodies. So if you give these patients immune suppressants to stop the rejection of the organ, they can live quite nicely with

Michelle (27:16)

Mm

Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (27:33)

with that organ and continue in reasonable health, understanding that their immune system has been suppressed. Spermidine, though, of course, it's in our diet. It's something that our gut biome, if it's not been compromised by too much exposure to broad spectrum antibiotics, it can make. And in all of the longevity hotspots of the world, these populations of healthy centenarians, their spermidine levels are

high, they're similar to those of people who are in their 50s. And it's correlated with healthy lifespan. So I always recommend that people try to get more plants in their diet because you will get spermidine in your plants. If you can have fermented foods,

Michelle (28:12)

Mm

Mm

Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (28:29)

If you don't have a problem with histamine load, and some people do for allergy, you know, if they've got allergies, but if you don't have a problem with histamine, then, you know, kimchi, sauerkraut, even things that are long matured like cheese. And a lot of people can say, I'm not allowed cheese because it'll make me gain weight. Well, yes, but there is also some spermatine there. The longer the maturity of the, of the cheese, the more it's been aged, the higher the spermatine content.

Michelle (28:45)

Mm

Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (28:58)

Usually these are harder cheeses like a Parmesan or a cheddar. These would be good sources. And then for individuals who need extra, then a supplement makes sense. But I always say, get it first from your food. Please do not rely on a supplement, right? That's not doing, it's a disservice to think that you can just have a bunch of little pills on your plate.

Well, at first you're not going to get any satisfaction from it. But the other thing is that we need the fiber in those plants because that fiber, although our bodies don't, don't digest it, the gut biome needs that. And so you, you want to also feed the colonies in your gut biome that can make more spermidine for you. You know, we have these little pharmaceutical factories that make

Michelle (29:46)

Mm

Yeah.

Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (29:54)

everything from B vitamins and serotonin, one of the happiness hormones, and spermidine. So why waste it? actually in our supplement, the wheat germ derived one, we have a fructo -oleigosaccharide in there, an FOS, can selectively feed the bacteria that make spermidine. And the reason I want it there is because that's also what's in breast milk. In breast milk, you have

these fructo -aligosaccharides, you have spermidine, sperminine, another polyamine that actually helps turn good genes on, bad genes off, and then a precursor polyamine called putrescine. So you want some fiber, basically, that's the takeaway. Please, you want the fiber, yeah, exactly, because it's always better to, what do they say? Teach a man to fish, feed him for life, right?

Michelle (30:38)

With the spermidine. Yeah.

Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (30:49)

rather than just give him the fish. And that's kind of what we want to do. We want to train your body to make more of it, especially as you get older, because you'll have to eat increasing amounts of plant material to make up the shortfall of your tissue production of spermidine going offline.

Michelle (30:57)

Right.

It's fascinating. So wheat germ is not necessarily gluten -free. For people who are gluten -free, what do they do?

Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (31:16)

Well, OK, so yes, obviously, this is a problem in particular for autoimmune patients. And I went on the autoimmune paleo diet myself. I got rid of all gluten. I was off all lectins. Gluten is most famous lectin. So I had so many autoimmune patients getting in touch with me who'd heard my story that I actually looked for a plant source high in spermidine that was not a lectin. And I found it in an unusual strain of chlorella.

Michelle (31:28)

Mm

Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (31:45)

So I went to Okinawa and had to test 120 different strains, substrains of chlorella to find the single one that had very high expression of spermidine. And we commissioned that to be grown in open -air freshwater ponds that are on land in Okinawa, but next to the ocean, but not in the ocean.

Michelle (31:46)

Mm

wow.

It's wild.

huh.

Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (32:11)

And that's what we use in our gluten -free product, which also has Okinawan autumn turmeric and has Okinawan lime peel. So lime peel has another autophagy activator. That's that cell renewal process. This autophagy or cell renewal activator is called nobilitan. And it's also in bergamot, in bergamot, the citrus fruit.

Michelle (32:16)

Mm -hmm.

Mm

Mm -hmm. Right.

Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (32:38)

And that actually, interestingly enough, is an Earl Grey tea. So if you're going to drink a tea, maybe some Earl Grey, you'll get some nobilitan in that. But that formulation was especially made for celiacs and for other autoimmune patients who really wanted the benefits of autophagy but couldn't use the defatted wheat germ version that we had brought to market first.

Michelle (32:42)

wow. Interesting.

Mm

Mm

Amazing. Let me ask you a question. Have you looked into enzymes, pro proteleic? No, enzymes that are actually systemic enzymes that you have on an empty stomach. like things like wobe enzyme and yeah. And I think that there's another one, it's Nuzheim or there's another pretty well -known company. And I think it's from Europe.

Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (33:11)

You mean like digestive enzymes or?

I've taken wovenzyme.

So yeah, wabenzim is German. I took that, gosh, maybe it's been around for decades and it does work. I took that from my, interesting. I took it, I didn't know that. I took it for joint pain. And so this was something that I was taking as a way to try and treat myself for the rheumatoid arthritis. So it didn't, it wasn't enough for that. I think it can help.

Michelle (33:40)

It was beneficial for thyroid. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (33:59)

more mild things, but definitely these are of benefit. And having a coach like you, who, you know, a trained practitioner who knows about all of the menu items that could be selected, you have the different tools, right? It's overwhelming as a patient. I mean, even just having my doctor say, just inject this one drug, that was like, whoa, can I get my head around the idea of injecting myself, right?

Michelle (34:13)

Yeah, like different tools.

yeah.

Yeah.

Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (34:29)

So you do need a guide and I think it's great that you've got that knowledge that you can share with your clients.

Michelle (34:37)

Thank you. also, so for people who are interested, is it mostly the spermidine that you're focused on?

Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (34:45)

Yes, so basically we are a small all -women company and you know, women -led companies, we get around 2 % of all venture capital funding. We don't have venture capital funding like our competitors. We very much are growing organically and are looking at really focusing on something that we know very well and making the most excellent

Michelle (34:49)

Mm -hmm.

Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (35:13)

product on the planet. And for me, with my group of advisors, this has been the right thing to do because we've had so many raw material manufacturers and suppliers come to us telling us, try this spermidine. And when we tested in the lab, we see that it's basically a tiny amount of wheat germ, and it's been cut like a street drug with synthetic spermidine.

Michelle (35:15)

Awesome.

Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (35:42)

And the problem with synthetic spermidine is, firstly, OK, I am biased against the synthetic because I watch my mother take the synthetic HRT. I'm so glad I'm on bioidentical HRT. But the synthetic has never been tested for safety or efficacy in humans. So I'm reluctant to bring a product to market that has not been tested. And when it comes to fertility,

Michelle (35:43)

wow.

Mm

Mm

Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (36:11)

We know that in mouse studies where they have used synthetic spermidine, small amounts seem to help. But then when you give just a little bit more, it actually impairs fertility. so with these...

Michelle (36:22)

wow. That's important. That's really important, you guys, to listen to that because that's huge.

Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (36:28)

Yeah, that's huge. So the problem is finding the Goldilocks zone. Each of us is bio individual. We have different ethnic difference, genetic differences, age, body shape, height, and metabolism. All of these things mean you want the right amount for you, but we don't know what that right amount is when it comes to synthetic spermidine. With plants, however, it's not a problem.

because the body recognizes this, we have co -evolved with plant -derived spermidine for millennia. So when there's too much, the body says, right, we're going to turn this into spermine, which is going to help with turning good genes on, bad genes off with the DNA methylation. But this doesn't happen with the synthetic. I think that on the fertility front, as a woman, I would never make that.

Michelle (36:55)

Yeah.

Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (37:21)

I would never go for something that might possibly hurt my fertility.

Michelle (37:25)

absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, it's a complete waste of time because you're trying to do all these other things and then you're going to take something that's not, that's a risk. and then I was curious, it says you were talking about it you were saying that sometimes they'll find it in certain mushrooms, cordyceps by any chance.

Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (37:30)

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Mmm.

it will be in cordyceps. It will be in all mushrooms and the ones that have the highest amount of swirmed in our shiitake, oyster and trumpet, but all mushrooms will have it. And, know, if you, if you don't have a problem with, mushrooms, know, this is fall, it's autumn. This is the right time to, you know, get some mushrooms into your stews and your soups and,

Michelle (37:43)

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Awesome.

Mm -hmm.

Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (38:06)

It's really, it's so, so good also because it's got vitamin D and we're just coming off of this period where we've soaked up the vitamin D from the sun over the summer, but now we're going into winter and we're gonna get less. So there are so many reasons to get it also a wonderful source of fiber.

Michelle (38:16)

Yeah.

Yeah, amazing. So if people are interested and want to learn more and then also want to look at your products, how can they find you?

Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (38:32)

They can go to Oxford HealthSpan, like the span of a bridge, it's all one word, .com. And if they're interested in learning more about healthy aging, we do bring breakthrough scientists who talk about things, not just about cell renewal or autophagy, but talk about other things as well. We also have them talk about, say, NAD, things like this. That's at the OxfordLongevityProject .org.

Michelle (38:56)

Yeah.

Mm

Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (39:01)

And then I have kind of a side hustle helping my girlfriends with gray hair reversal. And that's on Leslie's new prime. Spermadine helps with that as well. It helps with hair health and eyelash and eyebrow health. That is on Leslie's new prime on YouTube. So L -E -S -L -I -E is how I spell my name.

Michelle (39:08)

nice.

Fabulous. Leslie, this was fascinating. I really enjoyed talking to you. And also a key point, you got pregnant naturally at 40. Okay. important thing to mention. And I kept thinking about it as we're talking about, wait, wait, let's go. Let's go talk about that, even though it's kind of the end of the episode.

Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (39:34)

I did at Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's a, it's a happy ending. So, so the fifth IVF with the donor eggs didn't work. As a matter of fact, the embryologist said on embryo transfer, said, I don't know why you didn't use your eggs. Your eggs are better than this younger donor. I was like,

You're kidding me because I can't tell you how much I just sacrificed to pay for that. And, but, know, basically fast forward, I adopted a little girl from China. So I became a mom. become parents, you know, mother is a verb. It's not a noun. So that was, that was great. And as I was taking care of her, I still felt very, very tired and I couldn't understand what was going on, why I saw these other moms.

Michelle (40:02)

wow.

Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (40:27)

running around with scout troops, planting gardens, walking dogs, five children. You know, why? How do they do it? They're the same age and they have so much more energy. And I just, I did go to Dr. Google. I put in every symptom I had and it came up hypothyroid. So then,

The GP here in the UK said, no, you're in the normal range. No problem. I went to a private GP. No, you're normal. I went to a private endocrinologist. No, you're normal. And I just thought, I know I'm not. These doctors keep telling me I'm normal. I know. We patients always, if you do feel like that, follow your intuition, find a doctor who believes you, and we'll run the test. We'll work with you to uncover the mystery. It's like a murder mystery, right? So.

Michelle (41:09)

Yes.

Yes.

Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (41:14)

So I went on patient forums. Patient forums have been great help. Went there and people said, there is one doctor who will help you and he won't just look at your blood test. A lot of doctors look at thyroid problems and they only look at your blood test, your TSH, your T3, your T4. I went to him and he looked at clinical symptoms and he also ran a cortisol test. And he said that my...

Michelle (41:33)

Mm

Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (41:43)

Cortisol was the lowest he had ever seen. It was so bad, he didn't know how I was standing in front of him. And I had classic cold hands, cold feet. Yes, my hair was thinning. I was exhausted. I was breathless as I went upstairs. I was losing the outer third of my eyebrows. These are all clinical symptoms of hypothyroidism. He then said,

Michelle (41:50)

Wow.

Mm

Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (42:09)

What you need to do is address your adrenals first because of the cortisol problem, and then two weeks after that, take some thyroid. And because I actually do not convert levothyroxine, which is a standard thyroid hormone that most people get, like 60 % of all Americans will get that, but I can't convert it into the bioavailable.

Michelle (42:22)

Mm

Right. Yeah.

Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (42:33)

thyroid hormone known as T3. And your cell receptors only have receptors for T3, not for levothyroxine. So if you've been taking loads and loads of levothyroxine, you still feel wiped out. You probably are just like me and have a genetic, you're genetically challenged and you can take a test with Genova diagnostics. I think it's called the DIO2 genetic test, D -I -O -2. And

Michelle (42:35)

Mm

Mm

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (43:01)

here in the UK cost about 75 pounds and you then can get T3 prescribed either synthetically or you can do what I do and Hillary Clinton also does. take something, we take a desiccated pig's thyroid. In America there's Armour, There's Armour, there's Urfa, there are a few brands and that within, you know, two to three weeks basically on that

Michelle (43:16)

Is that armor? Yes, yeah.

Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (43:29)

Pregnant right away. No idea. Had not even, didn't check if I was ovulating. You remember the days when you're like, you've got a thermometer under your tongue and you're checking, am I ovulating? Could it be now? And all the calendar work that you've got to do when you're trying to get pregnant, none of that. It just happened. And I was so shocked. yeah. So my daughter, Marguerite, was born, you know,

Michelle (43:38)

Yeah.

That is so crazy.

Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (43:57)

Eight months later, was just one day shy of being premature, so I got her over the premature line. And 10 out of 10 on the Apgar score delivered at age 43.

Michelle (44:08)

Amazing. mean, that is just incredible. I'm sure, I mean, I'm so excited about this episode because I just feel like it's mind blowing, first of all, just all the different stories. And it also covers things that I feel are really important. advocating for yourself as a patient. I mean, that is huge. And I think a lot of us have been in those kinds of situations. You said something that I was like, wow.

That's a quote, find a doctor who believes you. You know, because also getting different opinions is super important and it's a game changer. It'll totally change your whole journey.

Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (44:37)

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah. Well, look what this doctor did for me. So what none of the doctors had realized with those other two autoimmune conditions was that I had my autoimmune, the system, the immune system had not only attacked my joints and my organs, but it had attacked my thyroid. And the way that he could see it was, you know, he could see with.

Michelle (45:07)

Mm -hmm.

Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (45:11)

that I had all the clinical symptoms, but with an ultrasound, he could see that I had only one eighth of a thyroid left. I had so little viable thyroid left. There was just nothing of the organ left. yet, because he didn't want to fall in line here in Britain, he was actually hounded by the British Medical Council.

Michelle (45:23)

Wow, that is so crazy.

Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (45:35)

Mary Schumann, the thyroid advocate in the United States, who's written a number of thyroid patient handbooks, actually got a campaign together to try to gather signatures. And he had tens of thousands of signatures from grateful patients. But the medical council actually wasn't listening. They wanted their protocol to be followed. And it had to be a blood protocol.

Michelle (45:55)

It's so crazy to me.

Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (46:02)

And this is the problem is the blood does not show everything. But of course, we patients get these data points 24 -7.We know if our hair is falling out, if we can't shift the weight, if we can't walk upstairs without getting winded, if we've got cold hands and cold feet, our partners know because they tell us, God, you're freezing. What's going on? So we need.

Michelle (46:06)

you

Yeah.

Mm

Yeah, yeah, totally, totally.

Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (46:30)

Our partners know it. If, if you happen to be sleeping with a doctor, maybe he can be a prescribed for you and he'll believe it because of the cold feet. but otherwise, you know, you have to rely on your powers of persuasion to find a doctor who's willing to go the extra mile with you and get curious. I only ask that I just find a doctor who's willing to get curious with you.

Michelle (46:35)

Right? Yeah.

Yeah, I love that. I love that. Well, I mean, I could talk to you for longer than we have. But let's say this is amazing information, like really, really, truly amazing. And I love your story. And I love the way you truly believed in yourself. And that's something that I want to tell everybody who's listening, just believe in yourself because you know, and you know what? The body is so forgiving, way more forgiving than we give it credit for. It's just a matter of

Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (47:21)

100%.

Michelle (47:22)

figuring out like what is it exactly that it needs, like just figuring it out, its own way of communication. So thank you so much, Leslie, for coming on today.

Leslie Kenny Oxford Healthspan (47:28)

Yeah.

absolutely. Thank you for having me on. really appreciate it. It was lovely chatting with you, really fun. And keep going with your amazing work. Women need guides they can trust like you, who are willing to take the extra time to get curious and share the knowledge that you've gained over the years and the hard work you put in to get pregnant yourself, right?

Michelle (47:57)

Thank you so much.

EP 307 Trying to Conceive After 40 | Michelle Oravitz

In this episode of *The Wholesome Fertility Podcast*, I dive into the journey of trying to conceive in your 40s, focusing on how to balance realism with optimism. I debunk common myths around age and fertility, offering a comprehensive look at how aging affects reproductive health from both Western and Traditional Chinese Medicine perspectives. I’ll share practical strategies to enhance fertility naturally, including dietary adjustments, lifestyle changes, key supplements, and the power of the mind-body connection. We’ll also discuss how to navigate medical interventions like IVF, with a focus on protocols that prioritize egg quality over quantity. Whether you're just starting your fertility journey or looking to improve your chances of conceiving later in life, this episode is packed with insights, encouragement, and actionable advice to help you take control of your reproductive health.

Learn more about my new book “The Way of Fertility” here: https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

Transcript:

[00:00:00] Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. I am your host, Michelle Oravitz. And today, I am going to talk about a topic that I think is so, so important. And I'm sure so many people out there are listening to this and wanting to know more. So today I'm going to talk about all things getting pregnant in your 40s.

So, typically, what drives me absolutely crazy is hearing that you're considered a geriatric pregnancy once you're pregnant after age 35. So, I think that's absolutely ridiculous. And working in this field, I work with so many people either approaching 40s or after 40s and I just recently had a patient at 46 who is pregnant and thriving.

So, there are so many stories out there that will definitely contradict. all of the fear and all of the questioning and the[00:01:00] doubts in women getting pregnant in their 40s. So I feel really passionate about this. If you are in your 40s and you're trying to conceive, I highly recommend you listen to this episode.

So I'm going to be realistic and optimistic at the same time when it comes to getting pregnant after 40. So the realistic aspect of is, the more time you're like living and elements of the earth, you are going to have natural wear and tear. You're going to also have a natural decline in certain factors of your body.

And That could be, I guess, the realistic news. However, the optimistic news is that we can actually do a lot to improve whatever it is to slow down the aging process. And we can do a lot also to improve the quality of our cells and, , Our cellular regeneration and also the energy overall chi [00:02:00] overall blood and really support our body and our body is forgiving.

It has been designed to be very forgiving. It's also been designed to reproduce. So if you give it the resources. Yeah. Then it will start to heal itself, , it will replenish itself, and it'll produce better outcome when it comes to reproductive health. So as far as the realistic part, let's talk about really what happens as women age. And when it comes down to really being in your forties. Now I will kind of bust a myth here because a lot of times they say women are the only ones that have biological clocks and men don't. And that is a myth. It's absolutely not true.

And as a matter of fact, nowadays, unfortunately, there's a lot going on that's also impacting sperm health, even for men in their reproductive age. So it does definitely impact, and get lower with age for men as well. So typically the things that will decline with age, [00:03:00] from a TCM perspective, traditional Chinese medicine perspective, women will definitely overall, their kidney chi, the kidneys in Chinese medicine are really, in charge of reproduction and they have very important roles from the moment the woman goes into puberty until afterwards towards the end they start to decline.

So the reproductive health of the kidneys, there are two aspects of it. I've talked about this before you get pre heaven chi and post heaven chi. And so you can get The pre heaven chi is basically like genetics. It's what you're born with. It's essence that you're given really at birth. And you could look at like all the eggs that a baby has.

If it's a female, it already is born with the eggs. And so all of that is there once a woman becomes more ripe, which is towards reproductive age When that aspect of her body starts to activate, some people are [00:04:00] born with a much better inheritance of qi and others have a little less. However, we also have what's called post heaven qi and post heaven qi is something that a lot of times the spleen and stomach are really in charge of and the spleen and stomach are in charge of digestion. So the things we eat, how we choose to live.

The amount of stress we have in our life, because stress can really deplete a lot of the qi, the energy. , qi, by the way, is life force vitality. So, all of those things come in and play a factor on how a person's overall health and overall reproductive health is impacted.

The good news, again, is that you can actually reverse your biological age. And this can depend on many different factors. And I'll talk about that as we continue. But some of the things to keep in mind is that, yes, as people age, [00:05:00] their overall ATP in the cells, which is really energy units in the cells, in the mitochondria, they lower with time.

So that actually decreases. And when ATP decreases in cells, it actually decreases also the quality of the cells. And since egg cells are the largest cell in a woman's body, it's really important that they are robust with healthy mitochondria so that they can create a lot more ATP energy units because it takes a lot of energy to conceive.

It takes a lot of energy for the egg to fertilize with the sperm to create a healthy embryo because it's a lot of force. And if you look at any seeds, really any seeds anywhere, and this is why eating seeds is actually so beneficial because seeds have a lot of what we call Jing. [00:06:00] Jing is essence. And so that essence is basically very similar to conception.

Because seeds have everything they need, all the nutrients kind of sitting there and their potential is there for growth. So they're primed and ready with the right environment to grow and sprout. So that is why one of the things we often suggest is to is to eat lots of seeds and people use seed cycling and I say either seed cycling or just eating seeds, either way you are going to get that essence and that jing through food.

So your digestive health is really important as far as taking that quality and translating them into your eggs and translating them into your cells, essentially.

And also over time as the egg quality declines, that impacts how much the follicles will grow, and it can impact the follicular [00:07:00] phase of the menstrual cycle, which is the first phase of the menstrual cycle from the time a woman gets her period. up until the time she ovulates and little by little that time can decrease and that can also be a reflection of how the follicles are growing and if they're maturing enough and it typically can decline with age.

Another thing that can decline is also the progesterone. So from either not ovulating or also from just the quality of the eggs because the outside of the follicle is the corpus luteum. So when the egg comes out of the follicle, what's left over is the corpus luteum, which is where the progesterone comes from earlier on.

And if a woman gets pregnant, that progesterone will last for a few months until the placenta starts to provide the progesterone. If a woman is low in progesterone, she may need to get excess. [00:08:00]progesterone extra from her doctor, or sometimes people try to do it bioidentical. So there are definitely many things that a woman can try and many interventions that she can try in order to help her conceive if she's at a later maternal age.

However, I've seen people conceive naturally at a later maternal age after 40 by implementing many lifestyle changes, including which really is at the heart of everything is supplements and diet, but died even more than supplements. And so if you have, say food sensitivities or you're, experiencing digestive discomfort or digestive issues that's going to impact the supplement absorption.

So it doesn't really matter if you don't take care of your gut health. It doesn't even matter what kind of supplements you have. And yes, maybe it's going to make a little bit of a dent, but it's not going to be as effective as if you get your digestive [00:09:00] system in order.

So what are things that can impact egg quality? So My suggestions here are multifold. I mean, there's so many different things that I can suggest, but I'm going to suggest the big ones that I think are the most crucial. And omega 3 fatty acids and antioxidants are really, really, really crucial. When it comes to egg quality, getting those healthy fats and healthy fats, like really, really good healthy fats, omega 3 fatty acids less omega 6, which are pro inflammatory, you want anti inflammatory, you want antioxidants, and really, an anti inflammatory diet would be the best bet when it comes to egg quality.

So you want a lower inflammation because higher inflammation can decrease egg quality. You want to remove things like sugar, processed foods. All of those things can impact [00:10:00] inflammation, but it also can impact your gut and you want a good healthy microbiome so that you're able to really translate what's in the food, even if you're eating right into the nourished energy and the chi and the life force and the blood that will support egg quality.

You also want a healthy exercise routine. So you want like a good opportunity for your body to get oxygen because oxygen plays a really important role when it comes to increasing the ATP and the energy units in the body and exercise as well. So if you over exercise, so here's the key over exercising, you're going to deplete your energy under exercising, you're going to deplete your energy being in a healthy BMI, a healthy weight.

is the most ideal.

So the ideal BMI for getting pregnant is between 18. 5 and 24. 9. It's known as the healthy range. Anything lower or anything higher can contribute to a more [00:11:00] deficient state, believe it or not, even having excess and having a higher weight can be deficient because your body's carrying the weight and it's not using the energy properly.

Sunlight also impacts melatonin in your cells. So believe it or not, even though melatonin is something that many people take and it's used at night or it's Considered something that impacts sleep. It also impacts the cells and works as an antioxidant and One of the ways to do it is by taking supplements But I would definitely suggest getting sunlight early in the morning, because if you get sunlight early in the morning, your cells will start to make cellular melatonin, and that can impact your egg quality as well.

Another thing that we know can really act as an anti ager is meditation. By meditating, you can actually slow down and reverse your biological age. There many studies that show. that there's so [00:12:00]many physiological improvements that can happen from meditation, but not just meditating things like yoga as well.

Things that really calm the nervous system, like even chanting has been shown to have many beneficial aspects, but it also.

Can increase nitric oxide chanting does. So there are a lot of things that you can do that are free and really are so minimal. Like it doesn't even take that much time out of your day that can improve and reverse your biological age. Meditation has been shown to help people live longer, it increases well being, and it also works on your emotions. And believe it or not, emotions are actually pretty high maintenance, especially difficult emotions. If you think about it, it really uses up a lot of energy, so it's not a energy efficient aspect of us. Now, it does happen from time to time and it's normal to have those emotions, no doubt, but[00:13:00] if you have it chronically, it can really, really deplete the energy of the body.

Think about times where you've had a very heightened sense of emotion or a difficult day and you've really, really, it got the best of you. Think about how depleting it was and how depleted you felt. Sometimes people need to sleep just to kind of overcome all of the emotions and all of the drain that it's given them so emotions can be really, really taxing, but then on the other hand, elevated emotions can actually provide more energy. So things like laughter are really healthy. I oftentimes tell people to do that, especially before transfers, because if you are getting a transfer, it's been shown to help the transfer stick.

So laughter therapy, if it helps with transfers. It really helps with everything else. It was just one study on that, but laughter is healthy in general. So watching [00:14:00] things like comedies will take the edge off of the fertility journey, just to have a little break mentally because we know that it can be really, really taxing and difficult as it is. So I always say, if you're going to have those things happen or things that are challenging that you're dealing with, you obviously can't take that away because it's just part of life and it's part of the process. But what you can do is counteract it with other tools and other things that you can least bounce out or alleviate or take the load off.

And I highly suggest laughter therapy. That's huge. But also exercise and yoga, things that really calm the nervous system, because it helps you sleep. And sleep is another really, really important factor that can also help with age related fertility conditions. So getting sleep is incredibly nurturing.

It also helps your body organize and balance hormones. It's so important to get your [00:15:00] overall chi increased, which think ATP, think about your mitochondria, your cells, rejuvenation. Sleep is incredibly important. The key with sleep is not to have too much sleep and not to have too little. So about eight to nine hours or seven to nine hours, ideally eight would be great.

Supplements you might want to consider are a good prenatal supplement, omega 3s, vitamin C and E, because they're high in antioxidants, but sometimes the prenatals have a good amount. Glutathione is really important, NAC and please don't take this as medical advice. Definitely speak to somebody about, you know, Taking this because it's not for everybody, not all supplements are for everybody.

It really is dependent on your unique circumstance and you can also get your DHEA. tested to see if it's low because many women after 40 can [00:16:00] benefit from taking DHEA depending on their condition. For some people, it can have an adverse effect if it's too high. So it's important to really look at it because it is a hormone.

If you are considering IVF, My suggestion is to inquire about a lower dosage protocol because from what I've learned from speaking to other practitioners and also speaking to my patients and seeing people doing a lot better, women who have a lower reserve may do better with lower medication protocols because it works more on the quality than the quantity. Because if you try to work on the quantity, then the quantity is already low. So it's better for fewer eggs to take in the medication and grow. And from what I've seen. People have done better with that. if they have [00:17:00] lower reserve. But again, this is a question for your doctor.

You want to make sure that they're on board. You may want to get multiple opinions and see what everybody thinks, because you'll find different opinions on everything when it comes to fertility and when it comes to doctors.

And lastly, you want to also track your cycle. And I wouldn't just do it with LH sticks because LH sticks are just going to show your brain wants to get your body to ovulate, but it doesn't really confirm ovulation. I highly recommend trying BBT charting for at least two months. I have a couple of episodes on that. If you want to look into different methods that you can choose to track your fertile window, you could check out episode number 299. I cover many different ways to track it, how to track it and ways that are a little more convenient than just doing the BBT, which I do highly still recommend to at least to do it for two [00:18:00] months.

The important thing is really to understand it and to understand your fertile window and really understand what is happening and when you are most fertile. It could help you also in understanding whether you need to address the follicular phase or the luteal phase or what's happening because if your luteal phase is short or the temperature is too low, that could be possibly significant in showing that you have low progesterone and something that you might want to mention to your doctor or your natural health practitioner.

So those are all things that you want to know. If you do have any questions, I am very active on Instagram. You can DM me and my handle is at the wholesome Lotus fertility. Thank you so much for tuning in today and I hope that you found this information helpful. If you have any other ideas or topics, again, feel free to DM me on Instagram and thank you so much for tuning in.

I hope you have a [00:19:00] beautiful day. 

EP 306 The Profound Power of Movement and How it can Support Conception | Desiree Bartlett

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I welcome Desi Barlett!

Desi shares her background and how she got into supporting women through life's transitions. She explains kinesiology and its connection to yoga and the body's movements. Desi discusses the importance of releasing emotions stored in the body and the three common areas where tension is held: hips, shoulders, and jaw. She also highlights the significance of starting the day with intention and meditation.

Episode Takeaways

• Kinesiology is the study of the human body and its movements, and it can be used to support women through various life transitions.

• Emotions are often stored in the body, particularly in the hips, shoulders, and jaw. Releasing tension in these areas can lead to emotional and physical well-being.

• Meditation and breathwork are powerful tools for maintaining and cleansing the mind and body. They can help release emotional weight and provide clarity and focus.

• Starting the day with intention and proactive decision-making can set the tone for a successful and fulfilling day. Starting the day with a morning ritual and setting intentions can lead to success in all areas of life.

• Traumatic events can lead to finding one's calling and purpose in life.

• Connecting with the heart and the uterus is important for fertility and conception.

• Listening and being heard are essential for healing and creating a supportive environment.

• Desi offers resources and support for women on their fertility journey.

Guest Bio: 

Desi Bartlett MS, CPT E-RYT, is passionate about sharing the joy of movement. With over 25 years of experience in health and wellness, she holds a bachelor’s degree in kinesiology, a master’s degree in corporate fitness, and is currently pursuing a doctoral degree in exercise science. Originally from Chicago, Desi is also a proud mother of two and an internationally published author.

Desi is currently launching an innovative subscription platform, Desibodymind.com, offering a holistic approach to health and wellness through meditation, yoga, and fitness. At the heart of her philosophy is the belief in the interconnectedness of mind and body.

As a women’s health expert with advanced certifications in yoga, personal training, prenatal and postnatal fitness, and group fitness, Desi has garnered a roster of private clients that includes household names like Ashley Tisdale, Adam Levine, Kate Hudson, and many more. Her expertise has been showcased on major networks such as ABC, NBC, FOX, Univision, Hallmark, and Lifetime.

Desi's influence extends beyond her client base through multiple online classes including DailyOM, Beachbody, and iFit. She is also the author of Your Strong, Sexy Pregnancy: a Yoga and Fitness Guide, a comprehensive guide  and co-author of Total Body Beautiful: Secrets to Looking and Feeling Your Best After Age 35.

Now, Desi brings her wealth of knowledge and experience to Desibodymind.com, where individuals can access transformative content designed to strengthen both their physical bodies and mental well-being. Whether you're a seasoned practitioner or new to the world of holistic health, Desi's platform offers something for everyone. Join Desi, who lives on the picturesque island of Oahu, on a journey to cultivate strength from the inside out.

www. desibodymind.com

Instagram is @mothersintolivingfit and @desibodymind

For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

Transcript:

Michelle (00:00)

Welcome to the podcast, Desi.

Desi (00:03)

Thank you so much. Aloha from Hawaii. This is a beautiful morning over here on the island and I'm so happy to connect with you.

Michelle (00:11)

I absolutely love Hawaii, by the way. Been there, it's so magical. I have to say, I really miss it now. We've been there like two years ago and I can't wait to come back.

So I'd love to hear your background. What got you started in this work that you do?

Desi (00:29)

So my mother was a hippie and she was a disciple of Goswami Kriyananda at the Temple of Kriya Yoga in Chicago. So I grew up with meditation and yoga since the time I was six years old. When I was in college, I got really deep into fitness and I pursued two degrees. I've got my degree in kinesiology and my master's in corporate fitness. And actually I'm on the brink of getting my PhD right now. I'm also in kinesiology. And so I've just been

Michelle (00:37)

Love that.

Awesome.

Desi (00:58)

extremely passionate about helping women through all transitions of life for many years. I have two children and I know that pregnancy and fertility especially can be such a journey. So it's my pleasure, my privilege, my honor to really support women through all of life's changes.

Michelle (01:18)

Amazing. First of all, I actually took a little and found it to be fascinating. So I'd love to actually start there for people who have never heard of it. would love for you to share it for somebody who's like never heard of it before and

Desi (01:33)

kinesiology is all about the study of the human body. And what we look at is biomechanics and you know, like what muscle is specifically working when you're moving your arm, let's say zero to 45 degrees and then 45 to 90 degrees, et cetera. And so what I've learned is not only anatomy and physiology and really understanding the body from the inside out,

Michelle (01:47)

you

Desi (01:57)

but how the body moves. So when you layer that on with yoga and all of the esoteric teachings, it's so fascinating to me because what I'm seeing now is that what the yogis have been teaching quite literally for millennia is what we're discovering today. So for example, when we talk about something like yoga nidra, which is yogic sleep, when we go into progressive relaxation,

Michelle (02:17)

Yes.

Desi (02:26)

So for example, some of your listeners might've enjoyed a meditation where you close your eyes, slow your breath down, relax your feet, let that feeling of relaxation move to your ankles, and you go through the entire body. What we know now is that there are specific physiological processes that are happening inside of your body that promote this relaxation and restoration on a cellular level.

So on the one hand, I'm full blown science nerd, and on the other hand, I'm like super duper hippie. And when I can prove one with the other, it lights me up.

Michelle (03:04)

I totally get it. Say no more. Because I feel the same way. And you know what's really cool? The more I'm doing this, the more I have guests on the podcast, the more I'm realizing, wow, we're actually at a place that we've wanted to go for so long. And people always thought that science had to be completely different from spirituality, that the two could not connect. But

I'm seeing more and more that they're actually connecting in a beautiful way.

Desi (03:33)

Absolutely. And I think that really also speaks to what you do and what you offer women so beautifully as well in terms of acupuncture. And know, when we're starting to understand like in yoga, we call them natties, the energy lines, we're starting to understand that there's a reason that people have been talking about this for so many years and it's because it really works.

Michelle (03:49)

Mm

Desi (03:57)

So when we're able to bring this knowledge and education to women, especially on a fertility journey, I think it can be such a gift because it's not woo woo, know, there's actual science that's involved. And so if I'm asking you like, hey, let's take this step together and let me support you. I'm doing so from a place of feeling like I can actually help empower you. This isn't just us wishing.

Michelle (03:57)

Mm

Love that. That's beautiful. I really love that. So talk to me about kinesiology, like what got you into it and how can you bridge that or like use that in your teachings and your practices?

Desi (04:37)

I went to ASU and I was originally a broadcasting major and I had a dance class and I noticed that my knee hurt all of the time. And so I went to the university doctor and he said to me, he's like, no problem, you are not injured. You just need to strengthen your quads. And I said, what's a quad? And so he explained to me and his fate would have it that very evening I met

second place Miss Olympia on campus. And I was telling her what was going on. And she's like, all good, girl. I've got you. I'm going to take you to the gym. She introduced me to the leg extension. And I fell in love with fitness. And my joke is that that evening I walked into the gym and I never left. So what I've learned is that you can strengthen your muscles, your joints, your connective tissue. But while you're in the gym or on a yoga mat, we're also strengthening our minds. In order to push through that next rep or to lift the heavier weight, something is happening in our minds as well. We're making a decision to commit to the next level. And I truly believe that that's all applicable to our daily lives. When we feel stronger and our bodies and our minds, we can take that strength, that power into everything that we do with a sense of confidence. Like if I can lift that 200 pound

whatever, of course I can take this conference call. We're good.

Michelle (06:02)

totally. I always say that. I mean, the challenges and sometimes I'll take a course or an exercise class and, and I'm like, my God, I'm dying. like, I love taking the class because I feel so much more motivated when I have a teacher and the teacher's like, I know this is hard, but get through it, go to your breath, you know, and then it gets me to my breath. And I'm like, okay, focus on my breath. And it makes you strong.

internally, like you learn to deal with things that are not easy. So I 100 % agree with what you just said. I totally feel that way myself. not just that, I am so fascinated by connecting with the body. somatic therapy, where it really, you connect with your body in order to process emotions and to process

Desi (06:45)

Yes.

Michelle (06:50)

your internal state. I mean, there's so much more to that than what I'm explaining because that's not specifically my specialty, but it's really fascinating to me because I've learned more and more as I'm doing this. And even with what I do that we process emotions physically a lot more than we think. We think it's all up here in our minds, but it really so much of it is in our bodies. And actually when we do get into our bodies,

That is how we're able to manage them more easily. And it doesn't feel as overwhelming as when we're thinking about them or just staying in that mindset.

Desi (07:31)

Amen. So somatic therapy, remember reading about it the first time probably about, my goodness, 30 years ago, there's a wonderful book by Barbara Brennan. If I remember correctly, I think it's called Hands of Light. And she was a nurse, if I remember correctly, and working with people, and noticed that when she would touch certain parts of their body, it would trigger a memory. It would trigger an emotional response in many cases.

Michelle (07:43)

Mm

Desi (07:56)

Way back when, when I was like a little baby fitness teacher, I remember working as a personal trainer in Chicago. This is like 1996. And I would, I would touch people to stretch them, you know, like just relax your trapezius or let me help you with your hamstring stretch. And I felt and experienced and saw the same thing. When you're that close to someone's energy body.

you can almost feel or I can feel the memory. And I'm like, whoa, what was that? But I didn't have the tools at that time to say, know, enjoy a very deep breath. Let's let it go. And let's let that experience be sort of like a cloud and just let it move on by. We don't have to attach to it. In yoga, we have a technique called neti, neti, neti. I am not this thought. I am not this body. I am not this experience.

Michelle (08:30)

Interesting.

Desi (08:52)

You're the one who's all the way behind all that, right? So now I have the tools to help women especially and empower them. So when there's been trauma, we can talk about it when necessary, especially if I'm working with your body. The body is such a sacred space and it's our temple. So if I have the privilege and the honor of helping to guide your body, of course I'm going to approach it with a deep sense of reverence.

Michelle (08:56)

Right.

Desi (09:19)

And any feeling or emotion that's popping up, we'll say hello to it. We'll see where it comes from, if it needs to be explored more. But let's also start to focus on what is the intention? What do you want to feel today? So if you're waking up with a feeling of like chaos and my gosh, and I'm not sure what the next move is, and I've got this whole to -do list, and I've got this and that, and on and on and on, and the mind is spinning. Well, where do we want to go? Is the intention perhaps?

grounding and then I can help you start to ground and breathe and feel your lower body and so when things come up we can absolutely talk about that and move through it but let's also be really really focused on where we're going so we're not getting lost in a constant loop of what was.

Michelle (10:08)

Mm

And do you see that a lot with the people that you're working with where they have like a real release or something old comes out when they're stretching in a certain way or they're a lot of times in the hips I hear that a lot of people hold a lot of tension in their hips and emotions there as well.

Desi (10:27)

Yes. So three places in the body that tend to store a lot. Number one, as you said, in the hips, specifically the psoas, the hip flexors tend to hold a lot of old tension around fight or flight. So I know you and I have spoken before about fight or flight. Think about it, Michelle, if you're if you're getting ready to like either dig in and fight or just hightail it out of there, what activates the hip flexors? Because that's what activates what you're going to run.

or when you're going to stay and squat and push. So it's totally normal to.

Michelle (10:56)

Right.

Desi (11:01)

the body or for the body to tell us rather, hey, I need to release all this because I didn't even use it. You know, I realized I was only on the 405 freeway. I didn't need to fight or flee. It was just my body spinning out because there was so much stress. So that's where something like yoga comes in and deep hip openers and release. And we can let all of that go. But getting back to my original

Michelle (11:09)

Bye.

Right.

Desi (11:28)

point, the other two places in the body where we tend to store particular emotions, and this isn't one size fits all, you you might experience one thing somewhere else in the body, totally normal. But generally speaking as human beings, the second place where we tend to store it is in the shoulders. And so especially in our modern day like tech neck kind of world, you kind of notice that the voice goes up and the shoulders go up when we get stressed.

Michelle (11:46)

Mm

Desi (11:55)

And that also has to do with like fear and anxiety. So we're carrying quite literally the weight of the world on our shoulders. So we can start to release that and relax the trapezius and breathe into that. And then the third and final common place for us to store a lot of muscular tension is in the jaw. And pound for pound, this is like the strongest part of the body, which is crazy.

Michelle (12:17)

Mm

Desi (12:23)

That's why when we grind our teeth, can quite literally take bone through bone because it's so strong. So this is usually related to words left unspoken, needing to speak your truth, let it out. And how many times in this lifetime have we been told like, just it won't serve you to tell your boss off or that kind of thing. Yes, that's true. But when and where do we actually get to release it?

Michelle (12:24)

That is pretty crazy.

Desi (12:52)

Have you gone for a walk this morning and just, just let it all go with a great big exhale? It can help. I'm of Mexican ancestry, I'm Mexican and Russian. And I remember when I lived in Mexico, I learned the expression, ay un dicho, caerita te ves mas bonita. It means when you're quiet, you look prettier. And so there's this messaging around like, it in. And so I'm here to tell you like,

Michelle (12:55)

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, get it out. It's true. It's true. I've been a meditator for a while and I think that I think everybody should at least try it because there's so much benefit to going internally because it really connects you to listening to your body and listening to what's going on. And of course too many meditators will understand this. think if they hear this,

Desi (13:20)

Let it out.

Michelle (13:43)

is that you get a lot of downloads. actually allows for an opportunity for a lot of intuitive downloads. And unless you really allow yourself that space, you may not realize that. But I think a lot of people who everybody that I've talked to that meditates is like, my God, that happens to me. So, so therefore my conclusion is that when you sit and meditate, you do get intuitive hits and downloads. And so one of the things that came to me

Desi (14:01)

Definitely.

Michelle (14:12)

is it's like maintaining and cleansing. It's like you need to maintain your mind and your body by cleansing and releasing often just like you do anything else, even in your household, even the oil in your car, everything, even your body when you're releasing waste. I you need to release energetically. And I think that's something that is so often ignored. And people could just

get in a habit of holding and holding and holding. And it's almost like emotional constipation. Like you literally are holding it in. I know I'm really great with analogies, but you really like literally are holding it in. And so, they say kind of like you're holding so much weight and holding onto so much of the past or things that are holding you back, it's true. Like there's really truth in that.

And so sometimes when I get quiet, that's when I start to feel, I'm holding a lot. I wasn't even aware of that. And I think that that's what is so beautiful specifically with yoga, because yoga is movement and meditation and mindfulness at the same time and breath work, which is a whole other thing, because in the breath work, you can release so much as well.

Desi (15:27)

Amen, yes. So meditation is sort of like brushing your teeth. It's something that we can do daily and it's a cleanse as you were saying. And so if we can simply take the time to connect, I like to share with folks that you can do it first thing in the morning. So when you first wake up in the morning, before you even open your eyes, slow the breath down and perhaps you even go back into the dream state and just ask yourself,

your higher self, show me, show me, show me. What am I meant to do today? What is the dream of my life and how can I take the next step? What is the right next step? And let it reveal itself to you. So in the same way that we have this muscular body and all of the beautiful processes that are happening every day, obviously, of course, we have the vital organs. And it's so interesting to me because

the yogis when they started to understand the chakras and the energetic body, it really lines up to like the organs in our body. So what you're talking about specifically is third eye, right? And so third eye relates to the pituitary. And this is vision beyond what's in front of our eyes. And I think we've all experienced this, whether you're daydreaming or in a deep state of prayer for those of who

for those of you who pray, there's this moment of being able to see like, that's the next right step. And you can breathe into it and you can feel that peace within your body. But if you go directly from the sleep state to the phone and CNN, Fox, like, boy, there's so much happening right now in the world, it will pull you off your center immediately.

Michelle (17:00)

Mm

No, Yeah.

Mm

Desi (17:16)

Before you give yourself to the world, I'm just gonna ask you to give yourself a moment to breathe and really decide for yourself, where is it I wanna show up today? How can I be of service? And I feel like that sets you up for success.

Michelle (17:35)

I love that. I love that because it is a proactive way to really approach your day. And I always talk about the proactive versus reactive because yeah, we can react. We get our phone or somebody wants something from us. Then all of our actions are reactions really to something else that's pulling on us. And so when we do that at the beginning of our day, before we have any pull,

whatsoever. I just think that is so beautiful and that is so wise to start off your day with your own intention, with your own calling, with your own moment. I just think that is a hugely powerful practice. And I know that people who do things like that are more successful, like not just in their business, but I mean, they use this for business

because it works in the business because it's powerful in general. So you could use this for anything, for your personal life, for everything.

Desi (18:33)

Absolutely. And to your point, I think it was probably three, four years ago, all of a sudden I started hearing about morning rituals. And I'm like, all right, the marketing folks have gotten a hold of this technique. And I don't judge. I love it. I love that the word is spread out to everyone because if it works, it's universal truth.

Michelle (18:41)

Yeah.

totally. You can apply to everything for sure. But I remember watching Miracle Morning And then I read the book. It's fascinating. highly recommend people watch the video, which is free. You could find the video for free, but you can also get the book. And I thought it was fascinating. He basically looked, he pulled all the things that people who are successful in their life or like

felt control over their life. What did they do? What's their like magic ingredient? So he would find things like meditation in the morning. It all started in the morning because in the morning it's you're getting in before everybody else gets you. Just like you said, you know, before anything else happens, get yourself then catch it. It's like getting your, know, when you're telling your boss something and you're catching him right before he goes into the meeting into the craziness. And so it's a good time to catch yourself as well.

Desi (19:46)

So I'd love to just also talk a little bit about the why behind all of this. So it's all so fascinating and what we're talking about. You and I are so aligned with our messaging and being of service to women and really empowering women with the tools that they need to create the dream of their lives. And I wanted to share for a moment part of why I do this. So.

I love yoga and meditation and fitness and all the things. And it's been such an integral part of my life and my path. And I don't know why, Michelle, but I'm called to share this story today. On September 11th, 2001, I was on a plane. I had gone home to Chicago for my 30th birthday and I was going back to Cabo San Lucas, Mexico, where I lived at the time. And I heard over the intercom, we need to make a landing right now.

And as soon as we landed, I got off the plane and I saw the television screens. We landed in Tulsa, Oklahoma, obviously not the intended place. I was supposed to go all the way to Mexico. And I saw on the screen tower two and the plane hitting tower two. And so I was in Tulsa, Oklahoma for three days waiting for travel to be available again. And I

I made the mistake of watching a lot of the news and it was so heavy to take all of that in because I could feel so much pain, not just my own but those around me. And so I turned off the television and I used my tools and I went into a very, very deep state of meditation. And I said, show me, show me, show me, how can I be of service? How can I help?

And what I heard at that time, and I don't usually share this because it feels so deeply personal, but because we're talking to women on a fertility journey, that's personal and I wanna meet them where they are. I heard, share your gifts, share your gifts, share your gifts. And for me, what are my gifts? My gift to this world is helping you to feel good in your own body.

helping you to feel strong and capable and flexible and do anything that you want. So when the international borders finally opened again, I went to Mexico, I sold everything I had. I jumped on a plane and moved to Los Angeles two weeks later. And the reason I moved to LA specifically is because as silly as it might sound to some, it was really important to me to do.

yoga and fitness DVDs in English, in Spanish, to do prenatal fitness, yoga, all of the things. And so LA was the right fit. And LA was such a gift to me because it also, it led me to my husband and having babies and writing books and all the things. So I just really highly encourage you when there is trauma or pain or doubt, go within, listen.

get so quiet that you can actually hear this is the next right step.

Michelle (22:54)

Thank you so much for sharing that. and I know it was a very personal story. So thank you so much for sharing that. That is a really, really profound, because I think that oftentimes it's such a human reaction when something bad happens or you're feeling emotions that are overwhelming, you want to either distract yourself or make it stop. I think of the saying, the only way out is through.

And I can't say just how true that is. there's, there is no other way, cause it will come back up. And I see that all the time when people come in for acupuncture, or even people say when they're doing yoga, they get into a certain stretch and it does come out because it's being held. If it doesn't go through, it's being held.

Really, if you look at like ancient culture and ancient tradition, ancient wisdom, they always say to go within. They're always pointing you inward. It's incredible.

Desi (23:52)

Absolutely. because of so much of what you've studied comes from China and so much of what I've studied comes from India, we have this Eastern perspective that we can weave into the Western. Eastern isn't necessarily better. Western isn't necessarily bad. And I hear some people saying like, it's so Western. I'm like, well, Western also brought us like antibiotics. So we don't want to throw it away.

Michelle (24:14)

Right, totally.

Desi (24:17)

But we can weave that wisdom of centuries old Eastern traditions into what we know now.

Michelle (24:25)

Yeah, absolutely. Amazing. so working with fertility, I know you do fertility yoga as well. What are some of the things and the tools that you use to help women when they're trying to conceive?

Desi (24:40)

So a lot of what I do in addition to strengthening the body and making sure that the body feels ready to carry a pregnancy is meditation. We go into a very deep state of meditation. I often have women bring one hand to the heart and one hand to the womb, close your eyes and communicate with your baby and invite your baby into this space.

Michelle (24:58)

Love that.

Desi (25:04)

on his or her own divine right timing. It's not up to us. And as much as we want to decide like, it's today, it's this week, it's this year, that baby, that soul, in my opinion, has its own path. And so we honor that and we talk to the baby and we say, hey, know, however it is that you're going to come through, if it's through my body and this vessel, I welcome you.

If it's through another woman's body or another means, I honor you, but I'm ready to receive you in my arms. And so we make this heart to heart call, essentially, you're calling in the baby and you're letting the baby and the soul know I'm ready for you. again, however that comes is beautiful.

Michelle (25:56)

Yeah, I love that. And what's really amazing is that there's this heart uterus connection with, so the heart basically is connected to the uterus. think we spoke about that when I was on the live. Did we talk about that?

Desi (26:08)

We did, and it was the first time I've ever heard anyone say it. So I'd love if you could speak more about it because you intrigued me and I'm like, I love this.

Michelle (26:17)

yeah, it's incredible. I talk about this a lot. actually like have a whole chapter on in the way of such an integral part really of conception, the heart plays a very strong role. I think it's overlooked a lot. And this is one of the reasons why your emotions make such an impact really on everything. I mean, you could say also fertility, but really everything.

but the heart specifically has a role in opening the uterus. So it has a role in labor as well. And what's really, really fascinating is that oxytocin, is coined as the heart hormone, the love hormone, which is one of the other things that I'm seeing as bridging science of the new to the old teachings is that oxytocin

has an impact on contracting the uterus. And it's one of the things that gets things started in labor. So when you're opening the uterus, it's opening for both taking in and taking out. So Ina Mae Gaskin she was midwife and I remember hearing this phrase from her that says the same energy that gets the baby in gets

gets the baby out. well, oxytocin also plays a role around ovulation. increases. Why is that? It's not random. Why would it increase around ovulation? Why would it increase after orgasm? Like around that time? Why would it do that if it had no role? Nothing is left with no role. Like everything's planned in our always something that's there for a reason.

So I always found that interesting because that's kind of like how we measure it in conventional medicine or modern science. And it really correlates to that. And I love the fact that you said that you put your hands, which I think your hands too have so much energy. And when we love somebody, we put our hands on them. So I love that you put your hands on your heart and your womb because having that connection, even touching it, when we're touching something, we're placing our intention there.

And also, you know, our arms are kind of connected via the heart. So it's almost like a circuit that happens energetically. And I'm like, I just think that is amazing that you do that.

Desi (28:39)

It's so interesting that you say that it's like a circuit because if you look at all of the older like statues of the divine feminine, that's how their arms are held. And like you're saying, it's a continuation of the heart energy or the heart chakra energy that travels through the arms and the hands as conduits. And to go back to like muscular science nerd speak,

Michelle (28:57)

Mm

Desi (29:02)

If I put my hands on one of your muscles while you're training, the muscle can and or will contract up to 50 % more efficiently if I'm touching you. So if a trainer is, isn't it cool? If a trainer is like tapping on your bicep while you're doing a bicep curl, it isn't just like, hey, Michelle, this is the muscle. It's to activate that muscle for that muscle to go, wait, yeah, I'm supposed to contract. So in the same way,

Michelle (29:02)

You

That's so cool.

That's fascinating. That is amazing.

Desi (29:31)

Cool. So in the same way that we can remind the muscles, we can remind the organs and the energy body, like, hey, I see you, I feel you, but let's do, let's show up in the way that we're supposed to today.

Michelle (29:47)

I love that. Thank you for that information. Cause that, I mean, that is blowing my mind. I didn't even realize that it was like that responsive, but it makes sense. It makes sense. That would be responsive to touch in general. Like, and we know that that love and touch even for premature babies helps them dramatically. So I always say, you know, if that love and touch helps that, why wouldn't it help the conception as well? And I just think that kind of centering in.

So continue, so you were saying that connecting with the heart and the uterus and just really like getting into your body and making that connection is one of the first ways that you start.

Desi (30:27)

Yes, I work with so many women who don't ever think about their uterus or their womb. And when I say words like vaginal canal or entroitis, there's still a little bit of this puritanical energy that I think we carry, especially in the United States. And you'll hear almost like the little beavis and butt head giggle very often. I do it too.

Michelle (30:46)

Mm

Desi (30:50)

They said that. And so I go back to how you were saying that there's a reason for everything. One of my very first jobs, my goodness, I think I was like just barely 18, was as a weight loss counselor. Do remember Jenny Craig? We used to make us say like all of these ridiculous words like gas bubbles and

Michelle (30:52)

You

Yes.

Desi (31:20)

Constipation. We just, had to see all these words over and over and over so that we were really, really comfortable saying it without giggling because we needed to be able to speak to people about what was happening in their GI system and if that was related to holding on to weight. So when I'm speaking with women, I like to use the words and let's talk about your womb and your vagina and your uterus and the energy that we're bringing into these areas so that we can start to wake it up.

So it's not just like, yeah, down there. I hear a lot of people say down there. And I'm like, down where? Like, let's talk about it. Let's talk to our bodies. And if we want our bodies to be responsive in the way that we want a dear friend to be responsive and to show up for us, let's talk to it with love and respect and by its correct name.

Michelle (31:51)

Mm

Mm -hmm. Yeah. I love that. really love that perspective of just really being there and seeing it for what it is and honoring it and not pushing it away uncomfortably and just really taking it in because I do feel like your body and your intention.

and your own energy and emotion towards it.

Desi (32:37)

Amen. And so what I teach women is about the energetic body and chakras. And the second chakra is, of course, where we unite with another. So if the first chakra is the foundation, we are we're standing on our own as as women or as men. It's the individual. The second chakra is where we come into communion with another. We share our body with another. If we are wishing to conceive, that's the energy that we bring in.

So going back to like Ina Mae Gaskin and the energy that you conceive with is the energy that helps with labor and delivery. How do you want to bring a baby into this world? Is it with love and union and respect and reverence? Yeah, for me, yes. So we got to talk about it.

Michelle (33:25)

Yeah.

for sure. And I also think that I also love working with chakras. I had a background in Ayurveda. So we talked about the chakras and then even Chinese medicine, you can see that there are certain points that correspond to those chakras. what I first saw, it's a thing. It's a vortex on your body. has energy. You can feel it. And even just thinking about it in meditation, just your thought alone, your awareness can release it and work on it. And

Another thing is, so we talk about the chakras, we talk about all the different things, but the chakras are interrelated. They communicate, they're, especially the neighboring ones, they are related. So I always think about like the first chakra is safety. If you're not feeling safe, can impact your period. It can impact your reproductive health. So it's almost like you need to be safe in order to create. you're,

know, second chakra is depending on that foundation of the safety and that rootedness and that groundedness. If you're in survival, you can't create cause you're too busy surviving.

Desi (34:40)

Yes. And to your point, you were discussing, you and I were chatting the other day about how the body holds on to the energy in the arms and the legs when it's in fight or flight. So it can hightail out of a stressful situation. So how are you supposed to conceive in that environment? So it's interesting that every other chakra is individual or communion with another.

Michelle (34:52)

Yeah.

Mm

Desi (35:07)

So we have first is just you, second is the sexual energy, third is your creativity, fourth is love. And so we kind of go back and forth between this me on my own and me with another. And so I think that's really fascinating. So we can start to explore with our partner if we're wishing to conceive, how do we share our energy with one another? And then getting back to nerd science, because I always take it back there, it's also

Michelle (35:15)

Mm

Desi (35:36)

important to think about how each chakra relates to the endocrine system. And so second chakra, you know, then we're talking about like reproductive hormones. And I learned this because I have thyroid issues. And so I've been on Synthroid for like 35 years. And yes, I'm ready to get off it. And yes, I need to work with an acupuncture as like yesterday. But what I learned is that

Michelle (35:46)

Mm

Desi (36:01)

fifth chakra or the voice and listen to my voice tremble as I even say that it it's related to the thyroid. So what's happening in in the second chakra and the reproductive hormonal response it's all related and it's my honor and my joy to teach women about their bodies physically and their energy bodies.

Michelle (36:03)

Mm -hmm.

Desi (36:27)

And I have to just take a moment in gratitude for you because again, I feel this resonance and alignment and you and I speak the same language of Eastern and Western blended.

Michelle (36:40)

Yeah, I feel the same way, Desi. I actually really feel resonant with you and what you're saying. I'm like, you're speaking my language. And I think also about the how in between the heart and the mind is the voice. It's kind of like the go between with your heart, which is right there. And so when we're aligned with that, with the love,

I think that that is very healing, just really loving ourselves, accepting ourselves, allowing ourselves that beautiful gift of expression.

Desi (37:12)

Amen. And so when we're speaking to one another, just as humans, if I'm working with a client, for example, that's where I always start. Hey, how are you? And actually listening. I don't want to just hear that. Fine, how are you? But like, really, how are you? What's happening? What's happening in your body, your mind and your heart? And let that come through. And as they share their voice,

Michelle (37:25)

Mm

Desi (37:38)

That's when I start to get impressions of like, okay, we can go here, we can go there. But the simple act of sharing our truth is so important.

Michelle (37:48)

without a doubt. I think just listening, just because so many people feel, this is what I hear, that they're not being heard. A lot of times when they go to the doctor, they say, like, I don't really feel like I was heard. I didn't really get a chance to ask my questions. I asked my questions, but they dismissed it. And I feel like that just by itself can really impact you on so many levels of feeling, you know, that feeling of safety or being held or being supported.

So I think just being there as a space to listen and for people to be able to express themselves is such a gift that you can give them. And it was interesting because yesterday we happened to have a live yesterday on Instagram. And you were saying that you really feel in your gut, like I was aligned. I feel the same way about you. I feel in my heart that you are very passionate. Like you are coming from such a

purposeful place with the people that you're working with and with your work, which is really amazing. I love it. I really appreciate that. And to see that, I think that if all of us found our true purpose and work through that passion, that's how we heal.

Desi (39:00)

Amen. Yes, thank you. Thank you for saying that. It's received and appreciated. And again, I made a vow to the universe on that day in 2001. This is why I'm here. I continue to honor it, to renew it, and I wake up with my heart full every day.

Michelle (39:24)

I love that so much. So for people who are listening to this, because I'm sure that a lot of people are really inspired by everything that you're sharing, how can they find you? How can they work with you? Because I know that you do bring out a lot of your lessons out for people to receive.

Desi (39:41)

So you can find me really easily through my website. It's desibartlett .com. I have a whole new subscription platform on there for folks who want to enjoy the body mind workout, which is a combination of meditation, yoga, and fitness. I also have books available that are on there, one of which is called Your Strong Sexy Pregnancy, a yoga and fitness guide. And there is a fertility section in there. So if you're thinking, wait, I'm not pregnant yet.

please know that there is a message there for you as well. I'm also super active on Instagram. You can find me at mothers into living fit. So however I can best help support you on your path, I'm here.

Michelle (40:25)

Awesome. Desi, this was such a great conversation. I've really enjoyed all of the conversations that we had even leading up to this. And I'm just so excited to meet another practitioner who I resonate so much with and has so much soul really in what they're doing. So thank you so much for coming on today.

Desi (40:45)

Thank you, Michelle, and thank you for all that you're doing and for letting me be a part of it. It's my pleasure.

EP 305 Is Inflammation Getting in the Way of Your Fertility? | Sarah Wilson

On tomorrow’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I welcome Dr. Sarah Wilson of @drsarah_nd. Dr. Sarah Wilson shares her personal journey with reproductive health and how she overcame challenges with her period and fertility. She emphasizes the importance of understanding one's own body and advocating for oneself in the medical system. Dr. Wilson discusses the role of the immune system and gut health in reproductive health, highlighting the connection between inflammation, gut bacteria, and hormonal balance. She explains how basic blood work can provide valuable insights into one's health and offers practical tips for addressing gut health issues. Dr. Sarah Wilson discusses the importance of gut health and its impact on overall well-being. She explains how the gut microbiome plays a crucial role in maintaining a healthy immune system and how imbalances in the microbiome can lead to various health issues. Dr. Wilson emphasizes the need to create a hospitable environment for beneficial bacteria to thrive and shares insights on the use of probiotics and spore-based organisms. Dr. Wilson provides practical tips for improving gut health, such as eating whole foods, avoiding processed foods, and managing stress.

Guest Bio:

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I welcome Dr. Sarah Wilson, ND. Dr. Sarah Wilson discusses the importance of gut health and its impact on overall well-being. She explains how the gut microbiome plays a crucial role in maintaining a healthy immune system and how imbalances in the microbiome can lead to various health issues. Dr. Wilson emphasizes the need to create a hospitable environment for beneficial bacteria to thrive and shares insights on the use of probiotics and spore-based organisms. Dr. Wilson provides practical tips for improving gut health, such as eating whole foods, avoiding processed foods, and managing stress.

Takeaways:

• Advocate for yourself and seek answers when faced with reproductive health challenges.

• Understanding the role of the immune system and gut health is crucial for reproductive health.

• Basic blood work can provide valuable insights into one's health and help identify patterns and tendencies.

• Addressing gut health issues, such as inflammation and imbalances in gut bacteria, can positively impact reproductive health. Maintaining a healthy gut microbiome is essential for overall well-being and a strong immune system.

• Creating a hospitable environment for beneficial bacteria to thrive is crucial for gut health.

• The gut-brain connection and the enteric nervous system play a significant role in gut health.

• Managing stress, eating whole foods, and avoiding processed foods are important for improving gut health.

Dr. Sarah Wilson, ND, is the visionary founder of Advanced Women's Health, leading a healthcare revolution across Canada with clinics in Ontario and British Columbia. Overcoming her own health challenges, Sarah is dedicated to empowering women to reclaim their vitality naturally, merging research-backed expertise with her passion for Naturopathic Medicine. Beyond her professional pursuits, she is the Mom to two latino boys under 5 and is a self-proclaimed personal development and mindset fanatic.

www.advancedwomenshealth.ca

Instagram:

@drsarah_nd @advancedwomenshealthclinics

For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support:  https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

Transcript:

Michelle (00:00)

Welcome to the podcast, Dr. Wilson.

Sarah Wilson (00:02)

Thank you so much for having me. I am so excited. I just really can't get enough of sharing all of the information that women need about reproductive health and empowerment. So thank you for having me.

Michelle (00:14)

Love it. So I'd love for you to share your background and how you got into the work with reproductive health.

Sarah Wilson (00:21)

It's such a huge conversation, I think such an important one because for so many of us, we get into it because we needed the medicine, right? And we explored that. So my story I always say is a really winding one. I was in and out of hospital my whole life until I was 18 and I was diagnosed with celiac disease, but I didn't fit the bill. And it was a naturopathic doctor that really pushed for that initial diagnosis. And so then, as we all do,

Michelle (00:28)

Mm -hmm, yeah.

Mm -hmm.

Sarah Wilson (00:49)

I avoided my calling and was trying to figure out how to recover and how to work within this and lost my period for almost five years. And so during this time, I was a researcher and I was seeing different naturopathic doctors. I was seeing different conventional doctors and specialists and people just kept saying they didn't know what was going on and they couldn't figure out why I was, like I wasn't exceptionally lean during much of that period of time. Like they just couldn't piece it together.

Michelle (00:58)

wow.

Sarah Wilson (01:18)

I had a doctor, think it was 21, 22, that was like, you might never have kids on your own. If you wanna get pregnant, come back to me, I'll give you a pill, we'll wish you the best.

Michelle (01:28)

So nonchalant.

Sarah Wilson (01:31)

And I just, I always say there's a few breakdown to breakthrough moments in my life and that was a big one where I was just like, absolutely not. I have the world available to me. I have all of this research. There must be something I can figure out. So that proceeded to really get me to push to work and find the research and piece things together. And I did bring back my period. And then when it came back, it was exceptionally painful. I was passing out. I had been on birth control.

Michelle (01:37)

Mm -hmm. Yeah, good.

Mm -hmm.

Sarah Wilson (02:00)

since I was 13 because of the amount of pain and heaviness. And so that's what it was like, okay, now we have to navigate this world of endometriosis and what that means. so yeah, now fast all the way forward, I became an astrophysicist doctor. I have two babies with two tries. I do not live in chronic pain and I'm just so passionate about taking all that research. I had to figure out myself and...

Michelle (02:09)

Mm

Mm

Mm

Sarah Wilson (02:26)

had to bring into practice and navigate how to bring into practice to now be able to give that to patients across advanced women's health clinics in Canada. it's just, it's a very empowering end to a really challenging journey, which I think so many people listening have.

Michelle (02:44)

Yeah, for sure. What I love about what you were saying is that knowing that inner knowing you're like, no, absolutely not. Like you knew it in your heart. Because a lot of people hear that. And then they're like, okay, I guess that's just my fate. And I love, you know, I love when people are like, no, I'm gonna take no for an answer. I'm gonna figure it out. and it's also an intuition. It's like your own intelligence within you telling you, no, there's more to look into. I had a similar

thing a little different, but similar. so what was it, let's kind of go back just because people might be in similar situations with their period, listening to this. What was it that really caused the five years without period? was it being on a pill for a long time? What was it that caused that?

Sarah Wilson (03:29)

So I was actually, my presentation of celiac disease was very different. I was 100 pounds heavier than I am now. I perfectly, I exercised and I was obese. And so what, the brain is such a beautiful thing. And what I believe happened is that being obese, going through puberty programmed my brain for what body fatness, quote unquote, I needed to have in order to be safe to have a baby.

Michelle (03:36)

Mm

Mm

Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Sarah Wilson (03:59)

And so for most people, they lose their periods around 16, 18 % body fat. I tend to hover around 23, 24. If I dip below that, then my period starts to go as long, it goes wonky. It's much better now, but the research suggests that when you have inflammation interacting with your brain, when you have cortisol interacting with your brain, what happens is we actually change how sensitive we are to the signals between the brain and the ovaries.

Michelle (04:08)

Mm

Mm

Sarah Wilson (04:28)

And so I think that in combination with all these set point theories, there's so many things happening now in the world of set points, that combination is what it was. So for me, getting my inflammation under control, which we'll talk about, getting an understanding that I had stress, but it was physiological stress. I had nutrient deficiencies, I had bacterial overgrows, I had inflammation, like I had all of those pieces.

that were interacting with my brain and my hormones. And so I just needed to go through step by step. I needed to work on my gut microbiome. I needed to work on the nervous system component. But fundamentally, I needed to understand that my body, the way it works and its sensitivity is set at a slightly different point than other people's.

Michelle (05:18)

Yeah, well, for sure. I mean, I think that that's really at the crux of everything is that everybody has their own different set point and different like, you know, responses, their bodies respond to different foods, different environments, different stress factors, just so many things. And I think that that's the key. I often see a lot of people sometimes come in to see me and they're well, I'm taking this kind of like,

combination herbs that I saw online or, you know, so, that's, that's one of the things that I really try to stress to people is that everybody's so different. And so when you were going through that, you were uncovering it. Obviously you had a natural path that you were working with. Yeah, multiple. So they, you had a team.

Sarah Wilson (05:58)

And multiple. Yeah, absolutely. And I think I always say I'm the most energetic scientist you'll ever meet in your whole life. Like data informs every single decision. And then you sit in front of the person in front of you and you say, OK, what's their energy? Right. Like what? How do you need to to build those things together? And so, yeah, I had a team I had.

Michelle (06:09)

Mm

Mm right. Totally.

Sarah Wilson (06:23)

And I had multiple naturopathic doctors try to work their way through it. I had OB -GYNs and my family healthcare team trying to help navigate it. And it was just, I was in the typical situation. I was in the situation that 90 % of my patients are in. Everyone's like, you're fine. It's fine. Your blood work is fine. Right? And that's, think, even for me doing research, one of the projects I was on was we were studying metabolically healthy people, metabolically unhealthy people.

Michelle (06:41)

Right, exactly. Yeah.

Sarah Wilson (06:52)

We were studying them in lean and obese categories. And so the labs going through and they're pulling all this data. And it was the first time that I'm sitting there going, huh, okay. So we can have people that are metabolically very healthy and overweight. And we can have people that are very lean and extremely metabolically unhealthy. And this was, it was such a formative experience because I remember sitting there going.

Michelle (06:55)

Mm

Mm -hmm, right.

Sarah Wilson (07:20)

The blood work, the way we're reading it right now means nothing. Right? Like we need to be rude.

Michelle (07:25)

There's so much more. It's just a snapshot. It's like a small, it's a small little slice. And I think that's something that I often see too, is that we make such generalized assumptions based on such a small little snapshot. And while that snapshot is very important, it's, it's kind of a piece to the puzzle. It's not the end all be all it's part of the whole picture.

Sarah Wilson (07:28)

Exactly.

Exactly, and if we use a conventional reference range that's defined based on disease, like I think in North America, we've really lost the understanding that there's a line between health and disease. Like you don't just jump from one to the other like long jump, right? It's not like I'm healthy today and tomorrow I have a disease. Like there's this spectrum of dis -ease as we make our way to a condition. And I think identifying patterns in labs.

and identifying tendencies is arguably more important than the snapshot itself, you're 100 % correct. And so we have to look at that data holistically and say, how is that changing? How is that modifying over time? But also I think there's so much research now where we can give people back the keys to the castle with that basic blood work, right? Even for example, everyone has had what we call a complete blood count. We've had multiple of them. So that's...

A complete blood count is when we're looking at your red blood cells and your white blood cells. We're looking at the breakdown of those things. It's the thing you get when you walk into the doctor's office, when you get when you walk into the hospital, et cetera. They're always just saying, what's your white blood cells? What's your red blood cells doing, et cetera. And there's two white blood cells called neutrophils and lymphocytes. They are just representing two aspects of our immune system that are fighting bacteria and viruses and they're helping to support the system.

But there is a ton of research coming out to show that the ratio between neutrophil and lymphocytes can tell us about the inflammatory status of the body. So if your NLR, as we call it, neutrophil to lymphocyte ratio, is higher than 2 .5 or 3, chances are you've got an immunological underpinning to what's going on. And so for me with endometriosis, I was in the hospital a while ago now, and I was having a flare, and I was worried about ovarian torsion, because at one point I had had a 10 centimeter endometrial.

Michelle (09:30)

Mm -hmm.

Sarah Wilson (09:40)

like it was very, very large and it's not there now, but I just wanted to go in and make sure that there wasn't something happening because it felt different. And my NLR was six, but outside of that, it was one or two. So this is something I always say to patients, you can even empower yourself just looking at that number and being like, if that number is jumping high and it's correlating with my symptoms, if I have worse menstrual pain or worse mood challenges or

Michelle (09:42)

Mm -hmm.

Mm

Mm

Mm -hmm.

Sarah Wilson (10:08)

I get pregnant and these things jump and then I have a loss, what could that be telling you about your immune system? And I think there's such simple things. Of course, we can run super comprehensive panels of labs and get all of the autoimmune tests. And like I've heard you talk about them on the podcast before, right? You can get really comprehensive panels and that's wonderful. And I love that as a doctor and a researcher, I love data. But what I love even more is saying, let's look at the past two or three years.

Michelle (10:26)

Mm

Mm

Right.

Sarah Wilson (10:37)

What are these basic blood markers telling us about your tendencies and how much we need to dig into different components of health, like your immune system, your blood sugar, those types of things?

Michelle (10:48)

So you could see this basically on just general blood work.

Sarah Wilson (10:53)

Exactly. And so that's where I think for me.

Michelle (10:55)

And do people often look like, do doctors even know to look for that specific thing? So it's kind of one of those things that people don't really look for, but you can kind of dig up your own stuff and just look at the ratio yourself.

Sarah Wilson (11:07)

Exactly. Exactly. And that's why I think I come on these podcasts and I do these things because not everyone has access to a naturopathic doctor. Not everyone can be a researcher. Exactly. So to be able to look at that and start to question, even when I was in the hospital, I was like, are you concerned about that? And they're like, maybe you have a bacterial infection. It's not a big deal. Okay. Okay. Right? But it's...

Michelle (11:16)

Yeah, that's very empowering.

Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Sarah Wilson (11:30)

It's those things that I want people to be able to grab onto and access for themselves because what I know to be true in my practice, seeing so many people, is when you give women access to information about their bodies, they change communities, households, everything. Like it is the most empowering thing for me to come on a podcast and talk about something and then...

Michelle (11:46)

Mm

Yeah.

Sarah Wilson (11:57)

get someone message me and be like, my friend of a friend of a friend told me to look at this and now I'm concerned about it. And I'm like, yeah, you should probably get that investigated. And then it's ovarian cancer. You know what I mean? Like this is how powerful just these conversations are.

Michelle (12:08)

my God, yeah.

Yeah, it's very powerful. mean, obviously when you do see that something's off, it'll get you at least to take the next steps or to investigate it more because you can't really make, you know that something's going on, but you have to like really move further and see what it is. But at least it's going to be an alarm to let you know something's going on.

Sarah Wilson (12:35)

Mmm.

And a direction, right? I, every day, pretty much at this point, I'm talking to someone who's like, everything I was told was unexplained, right? And in the fertility world, if you're unexplained infertility, you either have a baby or you don't, right? So there's clarity in that, no one's saying, your infertility is in your head. But in every other aspect, there's not those clear end points. And so,

Michelle (12:40)

Mm

Mm -hmm.

Mm

Sarah Wilson (13:07)

if someone's dealing with chronic pain and they aren't getting investigated for endometriosis or some other condition, they can be told it's all in their head. So even if they can see on basic blood work, one or two things that are off, it's like, there, go there, let's do this. And I think that's what's so exciting to me.

Michelle (13:24)

Mm -hmm. Right, right.

Yeah, definitely huge. So talk about the immune system. this is one of the things that you can look at, I know that there is a lot of a connection with autoimmune conditions and the gut health and, high inflammation and leaky gut. So talk about that, how people can look into it and how they can address it.

Sarah Wilson (13:53)

Absolutely. So I actually also was a microbiome researcher at one point in my profession. It's so important. And even now, like post pandemic, we've seen it so much more important because historically, what do we always say? Is 60 to 80 % of your immune system lives in your gut. Okay. So there is within your gut, there is, it's so interesting. Picture a PVC pipe, right? On the inside, if there's Play -Doh.

Michelle (13:59)

awesome. Amazing, though, but it's so important.

Mm

Mm

Sarah Wilson (14:23)

that's where the bacteria live, right? But that's actually outside of your body. And so that play -doh is either poop, in those of us who are lovingly chronically constipated, or it's the mucosal lining that the bacteria live within. So that's where the immune system is really, really critical, is within that putty lining. And so what happens is that immune system's job, because it's technically outside of your body, mouth.

Michelle (14:26)

Mm

Mm

Sarah Wilson (14:51)

all the way down to your anus is outside of your body. Its whole job is to say, are you a food and you're safe? Are you a bacteria and you're safe? Are you a virus and you're not safe? Are you a bacteria and you're not safe? And the whole job of that immune system is to sample and navigate. Do I need to kick off an inflammatory response or do I not? Am I safe or am I not? And so what we're looking at is when we start to have allergies.

and we start to have food responses and all these food sensitivities when we start to have bloating and gas changes in bowel movements. That's all telling us that our immune system either one has identified a bacteria or virus that needs to go and it's kicking off a response to it or two, it has what we call lost oral tolerance. It has lost the ability to know between what's good and what's bad.

Michelle (15:46)

Mm.

Sarah Wilson (15:47)

And so in both of those situations, that is going to result in inflammation, not just local to our gut, but throughout what we call our peritoneal cavity, right? So that's gonna be your ovaries. I always say, your bowel and your ovaries and your uterus are friends. Like for those of you who can't see it, they're touching, they're friends. So we have that inflammation in our reproductive system. We have that inflammation affecting our liver.

then it goes into our bloodstream. It affects our joints, it affects our brain. That's why we talk so much about the gut brain connection, because there's that inflammation there. But as a practitioner, my job is to sit here and say, is it that we have so much inflammation? There is this absence of an ability to regulate, should I fight this or should I not?

Is it that there's so much damage being caused by inflammation that now we have leaky gut or impermeability, right? Because the immune system will cause damage and it's trying to fight something and there's collateral damage. So is it that or is it that there's bacteria that need to be modified? And so I think it's really helpful, even like thought experiment to think about it in that way, because so much of the time when it comes to the gut, we

Michelle (16:43)

Mm

Mm

Sarah Wilson (17:05)

are assuming that our symptoms are wrong. Like, what's wrong with my gut? Right? Like, we're a victim to it. Like, our immune system is doing something bad. But nine times out of 10, it's trying its best to protect us. And so our job is to say, what is it protecting you against?

Michelle (17:08)

Mm -hmm. Right.

Mm

Mm

Right.

Sarah Wilson (17:25)

So when we're navigating and we're going through then, we hear all about probiotics and we hear all about these different things and all of them can be helpful and have their place, right? We hear about armor colostrum all the time these days on different podcasts, right? We hear about all these things. And so I always say, think about them and put them in the context of what I just said. So if we don't have enough good bugs and we add probiotics, which are good bugs,

Michelle (17:36)

Mm

Mm right, yeah.

Sarah Wilson (17:52)

then that will take us so far. for, again, for those of you who can't see, I've got my hands up, right? Picture it like a bar graph. So if you don't have enough good bugs and that bar is low and you have too many bad bugs, then the dominant state is bad bugs. So if you add a whole bunch of good bugs, then eventually you can turn that dominant state into good bugs. But probiotics are transient, they leave the system. So you still have that low grade bad bug situation.

Michelle (18:06)

Mm

Sarah Wilson (18:21)

So this is where we hear about berberine, right? We hear about oregano, we hear about black cumin seed, we're hearing so much about all of these herbs now, because what they're doing is they're breaking down the bad bugs to allow the good bugs to grow, to repair the lining. it's, there's such a huge dance with the bugs in the gut and the immune system and how that affects the rest of your body, but what we know for darn sure is that

Michelle (18:23)

Mm

Right.

Right.

Sarah Wilson (18:49)

There are overgrowths that are happening more than they ever have been before of bad bugs. We know that.

Michelle (18:55)

Right. So we're talking about things like SIBO, you know, just that, because that ultimately it starts to kind of go from like the bowels all the way up.

Sarah Wilson (19:04)

Yeah, exactly. So SIBO is small intestinal bacterial overgrowth. So it's overgrowth of good bugs in the small intestine. We also have what we call CFO or overgrowth of yeast in the small intestine because the immune system can't defend against the yeast. Then we have bad bugs and parasites, right? So this is where we hear an overgrowth of, I'll throw some names, like Pseudomonas, C. difficile, Clostridium species, E. coli. We have an overgrowth of bad bugs in that situation. And those can be

Michelle (19:11)

Mm

Mm

Mm

Mm -hmm. Bye.

Mm

Sarah Wilson (19:34)

upper but they can also be lower down. And so that's always what we're navigating is saying, okay, is there, if you have an overgrowth of good bacteria and you add more good bacteria, you're gonna be the person who feels awful on probiotics. You take them, you're gassy, you're distended, okay, in that, yeah.

Michelle (19:49)

Right.

Unless, unless they're spore based.

Sarah Wilson (19:56)

The SBOs are such an interesting conversation. They're such an interesting conversation because most of the research is coming out of two labs. And so I agree to some extent and I'm pensive. Yeah.

Michelle (19:59)

Yeah.

Mm -hmm.

Okay. No, tell me, tell me. I want to hear it because, because I've always been told and I've always learned that spore -based probiotics, because, they, they bypass the small intestine, they go all the way down to, you know, the colon that, and then they, and then they flourish and they change the pH and they, they make it so that it's more hospitable for the good bacteria to grow and not the bad bacteria. A lot of times there's like die -off symptoms and it

Sarah Wilson (20:32)

Exactly.

Michelle (20:36)

kind of shifts, even though it's transient, it does shift the pH to create it where it's better for a healthier environment.

Sarah Wilson (20:47)

Absolutely. So it's just like that bar graph, right? I always say if you give the environment for the good bugs to grow and there's not too many bad ones, then they will grow and take over. If you ever, I always tell people picture like an octopus or a cuttlefish, you know they change colors really rapidly? Our bacteria do the same thing. It's called quorum sensing. And so essentially if you create a hospitalable environment, you have enough mucus. This is the other thing, right? Bacteria need mucus.

Michelle (20:49)

Mm

Yeah.

Yeah.

Mm -hmm. Yeah. Mm -hmm.

Mm The mucosal lining. Yeah.

Sarah Wilson (21:13)

Exactly. So if you have that integrity, you add probiotics, and then you can change from a red environment, inflamed, the pH is off, there's bad bugs growing to a good environment. If you don't have that mucosal lining, if your immune system is too grumpy, or if you're in a situation where there's too many bad bugs, then you can't fix it by adding more.

Michelle (21:17)

Mm -hmm.

Mm

Mm

Mm

Sarah Wilson (21:40)

And so that's where we're using antibiotics and antimicrobial herbs and things like that to get that down. Going back to the SBOs, the thing I find really interesting is there's so many, I could like nerd out on this stuff all day long as you can tell, but there's so many factors, right? So when we talk about it bypasses the small intestine, what they mean in that situation is that all bugs are either acid sensitive, temperature sensitive,

Michelle (21:54)

It's great stuff though.

Sarah Wilson (22:09)

oxygen sensitive or yeah, I went through acid. Those are honestly the main ones. There's nitrogen sensitive, things like that, but those are the main ones. So what they're saying is the acid sensitivity means that they will get, and the temperature and oxygen sensitivity means they're gonna get lower down. But what we're seeing more and more and more is that people's stomach acid is off, their pH is off throughout their whole system. They have all kinds of,

Michelle (22:32)

Mm

Sarah Wilson (22:37)

you know, temperature sensitivity changes. And we have all kinds of changes in the hydrogen, methane and oxygen levels within our gastrointestinal tract. So what happens is we're not actually controlling where it's going. We're controlling at what environment it takes hold. And because there's so much dysfunction within the gastrointestinal tract in so many of our patients, I'm concerned that it actually could take hold.

and be present at higher levels of the gastrointestinal tract contributing to issues. And I've seen some... Yeah, that's BOs. Yeah.

Michelle (23:10)

You mean the spore based ones, the spore based? you, because from what I understand, looking into it is that it won't activate until it gets to the large intestine.

Sarah Wilson (23:23)

And that's based on the pH, the oxygen level and the temperature and all of those pieces.

Michelle (23:29)

Okay, I see. So you're saying that it could be a different pH and everything will shift if things are so off, up, you know, higher. Got it.

Sarah Wilson (23:36)

Exactly.

Exactly. And I've seen severe constipation in patients that take SBOs. It's like the only side effect I see, because you're right, there is a lot less bloating gas, those like three to five day battle between the good and the bad bugs. There's less of that for sure. But I have seen like enough patients that got me saying, okay, what's going on there that take it.

Michelle (23:47)

Mm

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Mm

Sarah Wilson (24:04)

and immediately they're super constipated. So we actually use them a lot in diarrhea because of the benefit of that. But it's definitely a space I'm watching the research. It's super interesting. I think just like, so I was, my God, how many years ago now was I a probiotic researcher? least 10. It's a different world, right? Like how exactly, so.

Michelle (24:10)

Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

Mm -hmm. yeah, they're learning so much so fast. Yeah.

Sarah Wilson (24:30)

Exactly. So that's where I always say, you know, you're a good practitioner when you want to refund everyone every five years. You're like, what was I doing? So I think it's just an evolving conversation, but they definitely do have utility for sure. I think there's just, for me, just having been in a research environment, I know how controlled all of those situations are. And so then when they come out into our patient situations,

Michelle (24:35)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Sarah Wilson (24:56)

We just need to apply different lenses of thought to it.

Michelle (25:01)

Or I mean, you can also add something like Trifola while they're doing that so that you're kind of like counteracting the constipation aspect or maybe some more fiber eventually when they're ready, you know, because sometimes too much of that when things are not great can exacerbate.

Sarah Wilson (25:17)

Absolutely. And like we have studies now that are coming out to show that it's alarming. Over 50 % of people have what we call retained fecal matter, which is like constipation when they don't know constipation. And so I think there's so much that we're finding out and there's so much that's going on within the gut microbiome world that will be.

Again, I'm just always so curious to see where it goes and to see what happens with it. Because even I wrote a book in 2018, I guess. So I was writing in 2017 on insulin resistance and how that worked. And like I talked about in Cretins in a big section of that book. This was like pre -Ozempic days. And people at that point were like, what is she talking about? And now it's so accepted. And that's what six years later, right? They're just like, of course.

Michelle (26:08)

Yeah.

Sarah Wilson (26:11)

So, so much changes so quickly. And I think just staying on top of it is something I value so much. Like even today, I'm teaching an intensive on post -viral immunology for other practitioners, right? So, I'm always trying to navigate what do I see in practice? Because we see thousands of people in advanced women's health. And how is that showing up in the research? And how do we mesh those things and adapt with those things? Because things change so quickly.

Michelle (26:14)

Yeah, for sure.

Mm

yeah, definitely. No, I agree. mean, everything just kind of out does itself. Something new comes along. what I find really fascinating is the gut brain relationship and the enteric nervous system and also the vagus nerve and how that impacts. It's kind of like the go between our brain and our gut. And, and also

Sarah Wilson (26:50)

Yeah.

Michelle (27:01)

the research on that where they've done like studies on meditators and like people in Tibet, Tibetan Buddhists, compared to people that are neighbors that eat the same food, they live in the same environment, but the gut microbiome of the meditators is so much more enriched. So it's kind of like a buy between, yes, we could work from the gut to the brain, then we can also work from the brain to the gut. And it's pretty fascinating.

Sarah Wilson (27:12)

Yeah. Yeah.

Absolutely, and even to see the amount of research on people's levels and how that is directly related to yeast infections. We know that that whole gastrointestinal tract, vaginal microbiome, they are so, so, so closely tied to our nervous system and stress response. There's so much, I do.

Michelle (27:34)

Mm

Mm That's interesting.

Yeah.

Sarah Wilson (27:52)

stool testing on myself pretty frequently. I would say even more so than patients, I do it on my family. And it's so interesting to see how it shifts because again, diet and lifestyle can stay very similar. So it's like interesting what caused that shift, what caused that shift, how was stress involved with these things. it's, yeah, it's so fun. It's so fun.

Michelle (27:58)

Yeah.

Mm -hmm.

Yeah, it's fascinating for sure. And then also, think about the gut microbiome, I think about the changes, I think about inflammation. I think about the additives we're eating and we're exposed to. mean, those are the biggest things because it feels like it's outside of our control. I mean, it kind of is until we know about it. It's, know, we go eat some places, we have no idea what they're adding and we know that

Sarah Wilson (28:33)

Mm

Michelle (28:40)

thickeners, I mean, there's so many things that can be added. We know that they can really throw off the gut microbiome and that throws off inflammation. So it's kind of like an unintended consequence because you're not, most of us don't know that unless we're doing what we're doing and learn about it.

Sarah Wilson (29:00)

And then you're looking, is there SLS in this? Is this disrupting my microbiome?

Michelle (29:04)

Yeah, but that's what it is. And that's why when people say, I guess, to simplify it is just don't eat processed food as much as, try to avoid it as much as possible. Because even like the good kind can impact your gut. mean, like good processed food, because of all of the excess ingredients that they add in there, that could really throw off your microbiome. That's why when people say just, I guess, like, if you want to say something that's more generalized, is more whole foods, foods that come from the

earth and also foods that are not sprayed with toxins, know, I mean, to try to avoid it. It does feel like an uphill battle.

Sarah Wilson (29:44)

Patients are so overwhelmed, right? It's you're trying to eat whole foods and then you look and they're like, okay, well, what about genetically modified agents? And then what about what's being sprayed on them? And I always say that in of itself is a stress response, right? So we talk about stress and then we make food such a stress. And so I always say to people, the reality is that you could probably do better than you're doing right now.

Michelle (29:45)

Yeah.

Sarah Wilson (30:12)

and what feels reasonable, what doesn't feel overwhelming, right? And we'll actually sit there and go through and say, okay, I need you to eat a low insulin demand approach, because insulin is such a huge inflammatory compound. Insulin is the hormone that controls blood sugar, but it's like 75 plus percent of us are insulin resistant in today's day and age. So it's a huge, it's an epidemic. So I'm like, okay, don't eat a ton of carbohydrates,

Michelle (30:14)

Mm

Yeah. Yeah.

Sarah Wilson (30:43)

I hate good carbs, bad carbs, but berries, all of those highly colorful fruits and vegetables, don't count them. Eat away, enjoy your life. I'm not talking about that. We all know we shouldn't eat as much bread. Deep fried foods are not helping anyone, right? The starchy carbohydrates, rice, like that. We have to watch those things. We built a culture on creating addiction to carbohydrates. So we have to be careful of those things. But it's like, how can you add two servings of vegetables? If you can...

Michelle (30:52)

Yeah.

Nope.

True.

Sarah Wilson (31:12)

buy local and you know where they're coming from, rock on. Like it's summer here right now. There's farms that I know do not spray anything, but they cannot certify organic because they can't afford it. Okay, wonderful. I can go there, right? Buy frozen organic. It is pretty much the same price to buy frozen organic as it is to buy broccoli right now, right? And saves my life prepping it. It is picked right.

Michelle (31:26)

Yeah.

Mm -hmm. 100%.

Yeah.

Sarah Wilson (31:41)

It is frozen right away. There's benefits to it. So it's like, do that. Okay, then we look at our meat. How, or if you're eating meat or not, How is it being raised? Would you want to go visit that farm? Because if you would not feel good around that, then energetically that has an impact, right? What hormones are going into it? We look at those things. And the reality is, if you can't...

afford to make those choices wonderful. That happens. What do we do to feel the best about the options that we have in front of us? Fundamentally, I always say balance blood sugar and a nervous system that is stable and you're not having anxiety every time you put food in your mouth because you don't know what's in it. That is going to take us almost just as far as micromanaging every piece and every ingredient. Whole foods more often

eaten away that fills you up, that makes you feel good. And everything else from there is customizable. But I think I hear so many patients, they get so caught up in fresh, organic, grass fed, grass finished, researching the farm, and then they end up in McDonald's.

Michelle (32:57)

Yeah, that's not good. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Sarah Wilson (32:59)

because they're so overwhelmed, right? They're like, I'm just hungry. And so I always say like a happy balance is always gonna be the goal.

Michelle (33:08)

Yeah, no doubt, for sure.

Sarah Wilson (33:10)

And your microbiome loves colors and there's not many of those at McDonald's, so. Exactly.

Michelle (33:14)

Yeah, variety for sure. Yes, totally. And then you were talking about like symptoms even without a diagnosis,

Sarah Wilson (33:24)

So the blood work is one piece, right? So even without a diagnosis, you can do complete blood count. You can do something called a C -reactive protein, which is a marker of gut inflammation, liver inflammation. You can do an arethrocytes sedimentation rate. These are blood markers. But I also say, if you are struggling with joint aches and pains, if you feel like you're just getting older, if you are dealing with brain fog, if you...

Michelle (33:26)

Mm

Mm

Sarah Wilson (33:53)

have pain with your periods that we have normalized so much as a society. If you have period poops, if you have PMS that is affecting your quality of life, like we have so many of these symptoms that we've been told, I'm just getting older, I have aches and pains, I'm just bloated and gassy, it's not a big deal, I just have brain fog, I'm losing my memory, right? I can't remember where I put my keys.

I'm dealing with like menstrual challenge. That is all inflammation based, all of it. And as someone I think who lives in this world all the time, it's so easy to forget what it feels like to feel crappy until you get hit. And I have two small children. I have a two and a five year old. And so we're sick all the time, right? Like it's just the reality, daycare, school, people get sick. And

It's so easy to just again, lose track of what good actually feels like. And it doesn't include those things, right? You should wake up in the morning feeling rested, unless you have a child who has nightmares about monkeys, which happened to me. Right? But you should be able to sustain that energy throughout the day without eating food. You shouldn't have to compromise your activity and your work schedule based on pain.

Michelle (35:05)

Right.

Sarah Wilson (35:17)

and energy levels and your menstrual cycle or your digestion. And so many people are living in that state where they are.

Michelle (35:22)

Yeah.

And so when you do have people that come in with inflammation, what are some of the ways that you address that

Sarah Wilson (35:33)

absolutely. So my belief structures, there's only five to seven causes of disease, right? So we go through blood sugar dysregulation and insulin resistance, the gut microbiome, immune dysregulation, we've got liver issues, we have nutrient deficiencies, the nervous system, and then we have the components of cellular energy production, or what we call our mitochondria, right? So these are the components of health. And at the end of every piece of that,

you're going to have a stress response and an inflammatory response, which is what most people are dealing with in today's day and age is they're struggling between that balance of stress response and inflammation. So my job is always going through those components and saying, which are the top two or three for you, right? If we're talking about microbiome issues and the immune system as two key pieces.

And then we say, okay, let's compliment that with the nervous system because we just talked about that. If those are someone's top three pieces, then first and foremost, we have to go through and say, what are the biggest obstacles? What are your gut symptoms? Does that suggest that you might have an overgrowth of methane species? Right? Does that, that tends to be constipation, lots of gas that doesn't smell great. Is it suggesting that you have hydrogen overgrowth? Right?

that's lots of gas that doesn't necessarily have a smell. We can go through, pick those apart. Do you have a history of parasites? Right, do you camp a lot? Those pieces, we're using antimicrobials in those situations to try to create some stability. We're trying to understand how that's gonna relate to blood sugar, et cetera. When it comes to looking at the immune system, there are key nutrients like vitamin D. If you don't have vitamin D,

at the right level, which most of us do not, that's a master controller of your immune system. So we need to have that in place. We also need to look at your viral history. So we know right now, research is showing that you can retain components of viruses for years. We've seen that people have reactivation of chronic viruses and those are directly affecting the lining of their uterus, they're directly affecting their ovaries.

Michelle (37:44)

Mm

Sarah Wilson (37:55)

and their whole pelvic health. So in that situation, we're saying, okay, what antivirals need to come into the mix? And what do we need, again, to look at from a holistic perspective? I know you've had so many people on here that talk about NAC and N -acetylcysteine and alpha -lipoic acid and CoQ10. And oftentimes what they're doing is just helping with those inflammatory cycles.

Michelle (38:22)

Mm

Sarah Wilson (38:22)

right, they're helping to restore balance to that inflammatory pathway. And then the nervous system comes in because that affects blood flow that affects your immune system's ability to do its job. And we say what works for you? Is that nerve nerves, right? That's where our valerian our passionflower, our zycephos come into the mix and are so beautiful. Is that going to be something where it's we're looking at meditation and walking?

and all of those pieces. that's really the approach I take, is I say, in those five to seven different causes that someone could have, what are the most important pieces for them? And then we dig into it at depth to say what components, whether that's using blood work, whether that's using functional testing, honestly, at this point, having seen as many patients as I've seen, sometimes it's insane. You're like, okay, I think we need anti -microbials.

some valerian and passion flower, and we need to correct the nutrient deficiencies that are present with respect to vitamin D and some of those antioxidants. We need to get enough protein, more colors, Bob's your uncle. But it's, I always say, health is so simple, and we have so much time and energy dedicated to making it really hard. And...

Michelle (39:31)

Right.

Sarah Wilson (39:42)

the more sophisticated I get, the more sophisticated the research gets, the more I go down rabbit holes, the more I come back to the same things. And I think there's so much peace in that too, to know that, yes, I have a lot of patients with very chronic health issues, with very significant imbalances, but the body wants to come back to those places and we just need to figure out which levers to pull to get it back to health.

Michelle (39:49)

Right.

I love how you put that. It's true. It's just like, are the levers to pull, to try to help it do its job. what it wants to do really, it's like its purpose.

Sarah Wilson (40:24)

Exactly. it's so, like sometimes you're pulling the same levers in rotation, right? You're like, okay, blood sugar, stress response, liver. And then you're like, inflammation, gut microbiome, stress response, blood sugar, liver. It's, you sometimes have to cycle back to those pieces. There's like the layers of the healing onion. So as we always say, but it's, there's so much simplicity that can be had within all of it. And I really want people to feel that because I think,

Michelle (40:28)

Mm -hmm.

Right. Yeah.

Sarah Wilson (40:50)

There's a lot of energy now being dedicated to feeling like health is gate kept and it's not, right? This is why we come on these podcasts. This is why we do these things. If anyone today says, I feel empowered, I can take action here. I'm gonna add more vegetables. I'm gonna add more colors. I'm gonna go for a walk after my meals, ideally in nature. I'm gonna look at what brings me joy.

Michelle (40:57)

Yeah.

Sarah Wilson (41:17)

and include more of that. I'm gonna work on my boundaries, I'm gonna correct my nutrient deficiencies, and I'm gonna look at my microbiome. You will get so far, so far in your health. And that to me is just, it's so beautiful.

Michelle (41:26)

Yeah.

yeah, for sure. mean, it's really empowerment. So, well, this is great. You shared so much amazing information. I could definitely keep talking to you because there's just so much that we can keep unpacking. But if people are interested in working with you, want to find out more about you, how can they find you?

Sarah Wilson (41:53)

Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you. know I was, these are always such loaded conversations because we start and it's like, do we go here? Do we go here? So exactly.

Michelle (42:00)

I know. There's just a, a, branches out and it has, it starts to take a life of its own. And then I'm like, okay, well, we still can't keep going, going, going. at one point.

Sarah Wilson (42:11)

I know totally. Yeah, so I, as I said, for anyone listening in Canada, I own Advanced Women's Health. So we have clinics across Ontario and BC and we're expanding. I have a whole team of practitioners that do clinical rounds every day and I work with all the time. For those of you in the US, I do have courses where I train naturopathic doctors. So if you like this approach and you want people who are in the US and beyond.

then you can always reach out to my team as well. Their email is just info at advancedwomenshealth .ca and they've got that list of practitioners. So in either situation, we can help you out. I also poke around on Instagram. I do not post on there as much as I should, but it's always a goal. And yeah, I'm just so happy to connect with the audience.

Michelle (42:52)

Amazing. Well, Dr. Wilson, this was very informative and I love the fact that you do so much research and this is based on like real data and real information and you really understand it. Your mind tends to work that way, which is awesome because you have to find a career where your mind is really able to absorb that information and then apply it. And it sounds like you found a perfect.

career for what you do and you're passionate about it as well.

Sarah Wilson (43:20)

Thank you. Yeah, no, I'm so fortunate. I love what I do. And like, I'm so fortunate that I get to build a team of people that begrudgingly love my brain. They're always on calls because we meet every day. So our team of practitioners meets every day and they're always asking questions and I'll spin out on something and I'll be like, welcome to the Ted Talk. Sorry, that just happened.

Michelle (43:31)

No, it's very interesting.

Amazing.

That's great. Well, that's how you know you love it. That's how you know it.

Sarah Wilson (43:44)

Yes. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Well, thank you so much for having me. It's been such a joy. yeah, I just I love sharing this information. I'm happy to come back and share more anytime.

Michelle (43:55)

Yes. So thank you so much for coming on.

EP 304 The Power of an Integrative Care Approach to Women's Health Dispelling Fertility Myths | Dr. Laurena White

On today’s episode, Dr. Laurena White and Michelle discuss the importance of preparing the body for pregnancy, especially for women who have irregular menstrual cycles or reproductive health issues. Dr. White emphasizes the need for a holistic approach that combines traditional and Western medicine. She shares stories of women who were told they had premature ovarian failure but were able to conceive naturally with the right support. Dr. White also discusses the misconception of a 'geriatric pregnancy' at age 35 and the importance of making lifestyle changes to create a healthy environment for conception.

Episode Takeaways:

• Integrative care and a holistic approach to healthcare are essential for providing comprehensive and effective treatment.

• Unexplained infertility requires thorough examinations and consideration of both male and female factors.

• Birth control can have long-lasting effects on the body and may require time for restoration before attempting to conceive.

• Preconception care is crucial for optimizing fertility and should include lifestyle changes and seeking the right practitioners.

• Finding the right practitioner who listens and takes a personalized approach is key to a successful fertility journey. 

• Preparing the body for pregnancy is crucial, especially for women with irregular menstrual cycles or reproductive health issues.

• A holistic approach that combines traditional and Western medicine can be beneficial in optimizing fertility.

• Making lifestyle changes, such as improving sleep, nutrition, and stress management, can create a healthy environment for conception.

Guest Bio:

• Dr. White is obsessed with health, wellness, and most importantly...healing. In 2018, when she embarked on an entrepreneurial journey and centered her firm around an integrative womanist ethic of care, she had a vision that bonafide healing of chronic, complex health conditions ought to be more attainable, inclusive, and (yes)enjoyable. Within a few years of launch, she had grown a profitable, bootstrapped firm with a full-time team of one to a 15-person team in two additional locations in the Washington, DC metro area. 

• With over 20 years of service and experience in the field of women's health ranging from labor support doula to obstetrics/gynecology and reproductive endocrinology/infertility including acupuncture and traditional Chinese medicine, she is a positive disruptor. As the Chief Operations Officer of The Eudaimonia Center, an integrative reproductive medicine and women’s health firm, she leads a team that facilitates the health, wellness, and healing of complex women’s health challenges including but not limited to uterine fibroids, endometriosis, polycystic ovarian syndrome, chronic fatigue syndrome, fibromyalgia, and fertility challenges without the use of unnecessary pharmaceutical drugs (including synthetic hormones and painkillers) and fruitlessly invasive surgical interventions. In a country whose healthcare system falls woefully short of addressing the comprehensive needs of “the least of these”, namely Black women and their children, she aims to revolutionize the industry one healing experience at a time by being fertile ground in a barren land. 

• While building a firm may have looked effortless from the outside, starting a business with no resources or funding quickly forced her to realize that early-stage entrepreneurship was anything but transparent. She began documenting her experiences and learnings while focusing on helping more women learn about integrative health, the womanist ethic of care, and the true meaning of healing. She has reimagined what comprehensive women’s healthcare could and should be.  As a result, she integrated her firm by forming a synergistic flow between conventional medicine and traditional medicine modalities, so the care women receive is not only transformative, but it’s also restorative. 

• Social media

• Facebook - The Eudaimonia Center 

• Instagram - @theeudaimoniacenter 

• LinkedIn - Laurena White, MD, MPH, DiplAc

• Twitter - @eu_daimonism 

• Website link - https://laurenawhite.com/

• Podcast: https://womenshealthwisdomandwine.buzzsprout.com/

For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

Transcript:

Michelle (00:00)

Welcome to the podcast, Dr. White. I'm so excited to have you today.

Laurena White (00:03)

Thank you so much, Michelle. glad to be

Michelle (00:06)

So Lorena and I spoke on her podcast. She had me on her podcast, Women's Health, Wisdom and Wine. She loves wine and I do too. And she actually just came back from Paris. So I'm sure you've had some good wine there. And Lorena, if I may call you Lorena, Dr. Lorena, I feel like you're a friend, so I'm calling you Lorena. Yeah, so she's incredible. She has such an incredible story. when

Laurena White (00:20)

Definitely.

Of course, yes. Yes, we're colleagues, yes.

Michelle (00:34)

talked to her, met her the first time. I actually, before even meeting her, I took her class on fibroids and it was such a great class and I remember recognizing her and your story is so amazing. And I would love for you to share your story because I think it's fascinating. What I love about your story specifically is first of all, you've been to Cuba, which is freaking awesome. But then also the fact that you have

Laurena White (00:56)

Yes.

Michelle (01:00)

like a foot in both worlds of Western and Eastern medicine and really integrate those two. And also what I love about you is that have a different approach. You really look at people as a whole and really spend time to get to know them and listen to them. It's just, I if I can clone you, like, it would be awesome.

Laurena White (01:04)

Yes.

Trust me, I'm working on it. I am trying to clothe myself because I really do feel like how we practice and how our firm works is how I feel and this isn't with no hubris, but how medicine should be. And I honestly believe that we are better together. And so often it's us versus them. And that's not just in medicine, but it's almost in everything. There's just these power dynamics that are not serving.

Michelle (01:31)

Yes.

Laurena White (01:46)

the people or the population that we desire to serve, they're trying to serve others' egos. And that's one of the things that frustrate me. That's why I integrated our firm, because I truly do believe in an integrative approach to care. And we have added a womanist ethic of care to that component that takes it even a notch further. And so the original question was kind of telling how I got started or how I got from there to here.

Michelle (01:51)

Mm

You have to tell your story because it's so cool.

Laurena White (02:12)

I'm gonna try to summarize it as quickly as possible. I always knew I wanted to be a physician. I thought I wanted to be a pediatrician. But once I got to my Peds rotation, I realized I love the children, but I could not stand their parents. And that wasn't going to end up with a good career for anybody nor happy families. And I didn't think I was interested in...

women's health from the OB -GYN perspective, just because I thought who wants to look at vaginas all day? Like that's just not seemed like something that I wanted to do. However, when I got to that rotation, I started with OB and life changed. Literally my life changed because from even before I helped deliver a baby, it was about, I had been exposed to women's health. had been involved with women's circles in my own family.

through vaginal steaming, I had been a doula, labor support doula, so I had been around that aspect, but I realized there's so much more to conception and childbirth, and that 10 months in between, there's so many things that can go wrong, and we don't even talk about those aspects. And so really being able to bear witness to that miracle of birth, I realized that the word miracle is exactly what that is, because we only see those perfect endings.

when we're on the outside, don't see the everything that goes on in between and what a lot of moms have to go through, not just to get pregnant, but to stay pregnant. And so really being able to bear witness to that miracle of birth, it brought tears to my eyes. And I started wearing goggles because my colleagues are like, you cry at every birth, suck it up. And I was like, and I, you know, I tried, I was like, why do I do this? I was like, why do I cry every time?

Michelle (03:52)

I'd be the same.

Laurena White (03:56)

But it's, mean, I'm a softy, I'm in love with love, and I think that, you know, mother -child relationship, you know, it's it's overpowering, it's overwhelming in terms of how intensely bonded that can be when it's healthy and when that whole process just unfolds right in front of your eyes from the time someone, you know, tells you, hey, I'm pregnant, or I think I'm pregnant, to the time, like, you're literally holding that baby in your hands, presenting them to their parent.

So it was amazing. And so by the time I got to my Gain rotation, I also realized, hey, this is so much deeper than I thought it would be. It's about education. It's about empowerment. It's about making sure people know their body parts. And not just with 12 and 13 year olds, but also with 41 and 42 year olds who have had children and still don't know where babies come from. And so I was like, I can be an educator as well through this process. And it

that was also empowering for me because I knew there was still work to be done. So in between those things, I worked for a federally qualified health center, loved my job, but it was burning me out. I was a sister, a friend, a transportation, a social worker, interpreter. The good thing that I do speak more than one language, so that helped. But it was just a lot for what was supposed to be a basically checkup appointment or an annual visit or.

you know, something like that, and it turned into a lot of other things. And when you're helping the indigent and the English as a second or fourth language, and those who just are either immigrants or underhoused or unhoused, I mean, it's just, it was just a lot. And as much as I, my personality doesn't have a switch off valve to say, okay, this is outside your lane.

it sees a person who needs help and it's like, okay, you're the one here and they're asking for you and they're sitting in front of you now. So do something. But I was quickly getting burnt out because there was just so much every single day that I was getting home just exhausted. Happy that I was able to do the things that I was able to do, but still just really, really exhausted and burnt out because there wasn't enough time for me, my family, or the other things, aspects of my life that were also important. And

After that, I was like, I also wanted to get out of Pennsylvania. And so I wound up working for the Surgeon General during the Obama administration. I was a women's health consultant there and one of the sweetest jobs I've ever had in life. That was after though, I came back from Cuba. I lived in Cuba for six years. And then I lived in Haiti for two years. And that's where I realized what kind of physician I wanted to be. So Cuba and Haiti back to Pennsylvania, then DC and...

When the administration changed, everything for me changed. I knew I could no longer stay in working in that administration the way that I had been. My job was not secure. Things were changing at a pace that wasn't healthy for me, wasn't healthy for my position, it wasn't healthy for my reputation. And so I realized, hey, it's either gonna, you're gonna either go back and get an MBA or you're going to open up your own firm and figure it out.

Going back to school, I'm a nerd and I love studying. I love all those things. So going back to school was not even a big deal for me. I had already gone back to school to become an acupuncture. So going back to school again to get an MBA was just par for the course for me. But I realized I wanted to do this and I knew knew how to take care of my clients, my patients. So I was gonna start there. And that's what I did in 2018. We opened up our own firm. I opened up my firm

started with me and three other part -time people and practitioners, and now we're up to 15, plus myself, and we have two locations, working on our third. So yeah, it's been a whirlwind. It's been, it's like all these good things. It didn't necessarily start off that way. Like the first three months when I opened the door, I was like, where are all the people? They say you build it and they'll come. And that is not how it works.

Michelle (07:39)

It's amazing.

Yeah. Yeah.

Laurena White (07:57)

You build it and you spend a lot of time looking at the window wondering is the electricity, know, is the phone jack working? You pick it up. Okay, there is a dial tone. So the phone does work The doors bolted shut like what is going on and It just is one of those things like you know building something from the ground up is just not the what you see in the movies There's a lot of heartbreak. There's a lot of other kind of stuff that goes into that but it never has been not rewarding and it definitely

built my character in ways that I didn't know I needed building. Patience is not one of my virtues, and so that definitely showed me, know, dig deeper and harder and into making the thing that I wanted to see come to fruition fully become what it is now. And it's growing.

Michelle (08:41)

Awesome. And also, I mean, really based on your background, I imagine there's not a lot of places like yours.

Laurena White (08:48)

that I know of. When we started, one of my mentors was in California and she was shutting down her, shuttering her whole office because she's like, it's too much work, know, between trying to do all the integrative aspects of things and then insurance. And it was wild. And so just when I was opening up, we had been talking for maybe three or four months and she's like, I can't do this anymore because it's just too much work. And I was thinking, know, in California where everything is so progressive and everybody is,

what I feel is already advanced and she's having issues. What is that going to mean for me? But I realized I believed in what we do, the work we do, how we do it, our approach. And I bet on myself and I still continue betting on myself because I don't believe that we're, you we got this far just for it to be a flop or a failure. I believe we're steadily growing and people are steady realizing that there are other options. Even if it's not us, there's something else out there.

And I think part of that is realizing that it doesn't have, you don't have to be stuck in the same Western medicine system, not being valued, not being seen, not being heard. And with us, you've seen, and valued. And I think everyone deserves that. And as people are starting to realize that they're becoming empowered and whether they choose to work with us or somebody else, they're realizing that they have other decisions that they can make and they don't have to be stuck in a rut.

with providers and practitioners that aren't taking care of

Michelle (10:12)

I think that's huge because I think most people don't really think that they have an option or they just think they don't even know that anything else exists. so talk about that. Like what's the ideal way a patient should feel like when they come in, like what are the things that should be looked at? Cause I, from what I hear a lot is that people want to get like certain

worked on or more blood worked on, say, you know, their TSH is off and they want to do a full thyroid, there's a lot of pushback from their doctors or, you don't need that. this is fine. And then sometimes even other intuition, they're like, no, I feel like I need something. And then later on, they find out that intuition was right. They had like a hunch and you know, that's it's a real thing intuition, you know, so, so talk to, because I want people hearing this.

Laurena White (10:46)

Mm Yeah.

Right.

Yeah.

Michelle (11:05)

that are really on the journey, they're going through all of this. I want them to know like what they can have, what should be the quality of care that they should be receiving.

Laurena White (11:05)

huh.

Absolutely. And I think that you hit the nail on the head is that, especially as women, we have that thing, whether you call it intuition or a feeling or whatever you want to call it, it's there. And a lot of times we ignore it because it doesn't fall in the parameters of what everyone else is saying or what the doctor told you or what your friends tell you or something else. But you're constantly being told, no, you're normal or you're fine or it's something else other than something that you know.

Michelle (11:44)

It's like a dismissal. Yeah.

Laurena White (11:45)

It'd be off. Yes, complete, yes, that's the word, dismissal. And that's where the womanist ethic of care comes into place, is that when you tell us there's something off and I can't pinpoint it based on my diagnostic skills, which I do take pride in, then it's like, okay, then let's figure it out together. What have you tried? What works? What doesn't work?

I'm not one for just running a bunch of tests either, just for the sake of running tests, but I also realized that with blood work, physicians primarily get reimbursed on the basic blood work. There are other blood work that is so expensive that is not covered by insurance and it's out of pocket. So they don't run those because they're not going to get reimbursed. Or they're looking at normal ranges. If it's between this and this, it's falling in the normal range, but they're not looking at ratios.

And so you're getting your blood work panel back and it says everything's in the normal range, but some of those ranges are not in the normal ratio. So when you're just looking at numbers and everything says normal and they're just saying, okay, everything's normal, but the ratios are off, that's an explanation for potentially some of the conditions or the symptoms that one is experiencing. But also are they even running the right tests? And if they're not running the right tests or the correct tests in order to make the accurate diagnosis,

they're going to continue telling you that there's nothing wrong. Everything's fine to the point of even hinting that it's in your head or you're making it up, which is also one of the things that really annoy me because when someone is telling you there's something wrong and it's not the first time and it's not the complaining Janeys, but someone who does the things and they, and you can see that they've been at this for years, months. Now's the time for me to listen because there's something that's clearly not being addressed.

Michelle (13:09)

Mm

Laurena White (13:33)

And that's again where the womanist ethic of care comes into place because if I don't have the answer, we're gonna seek and find it together. I do believe I'm a solution finder. I don't call myself a problem solver because who wants to chase problems? I don't. I wanna find solutions. Yes. Yeah. I mean, who wants to, you run away from problems. You don't run to them, but you run to solutions. And so when we're working together, talking about your symptoms, really asking the questions that we learned.

Michelle (13:42)

Love that.

I love that though. Solution Finder. That's awesome.

Yes.

Laurena White (14:02)

in acupuncture school that we never ask in Western medicine. We're talking about your sleep, your diet, when you eat, how you eat, your bowel movements, your urinary habits, your sleep, whether you dream, are you how to call all these idiosyncratic questions that are never asked in Western medicine, but they're more comprehensive because if you have trouble falling asleep or trouble staying asleep mean two completely different things. And when we just ask,

Michelle (14:30)

Mm -hmm. Right.

Laurena White (14:31)

How are your periods? And someone says, okay. Okay, regular, good, mean absolutely nothing to me because it tells me nothing about you. When I ask you how are you sleeping and you're saying, fine, I don't know what time you go to bed. I don't know what time you wake up. I don't know if you wake up three times in the middle of the night. I don't know if you're having hot sweats in the middle of the night. Are you dreaming? Are your dreams vivid? How many times are this happening per night? Some people think that if they're dreaming, it's a good thing. But when you're dreaming and you remember your dreams,

you might as well be awake. So you're not waking up well rested because your mind is still going. Your mind is still engaged, just like where my mind is engaged right now as I talk to you. So if you're remembering your dreams every single night and they're vivid, you're not well rested. But some people have been thinking, I have a dream every night or I have these very wild dreams. And they're thinking it's something that's a yes, yeah. And it's like, whoa, no, those vivid dreams are actually keeping you from getting a well night.

Michelle (15:20)

Right, this is all Chinese medicine, yeah.

Laurena White (15:27)

Well rested night sleep and yes, we all dream but for the most part You don't remember them and that means you've been in deep sleep and getting that well rested restorative sleep So they're just nuanced things like that that I find that we do differently and really help us be able to get to the healing aspect of things instead of the symptom chasing things and so When we really take time to ask the right questions to get the right answers. We're able to get results

with clients that have never been able to get results in any other capacity because we're looking at the root cause, the underlying condition, and not just the constellation of symptoms.

Michelle (16:07)

For sure. And one of the things that I hear a lot is, you know, the unexplained infertility diagnosis. And I'm sure for you specifically, you're like, wait, because you look at it in so many different ways that you could probably pick up on things that the next OB will not be picking up on.

Laurena White (16:12)

Yes. Yeah.

Mm -hmm.

Right. Yeah. Well, I unexplained infertility and we always like to say fertility challenges instead of infertility because that kind of borderlines on like you are sterile and I'm like, and it could be your ovaries. It could be your womb. It could be a lot of different things. So you're just having fertility challenges. And so when I look at unexplained, my thing is, OK, maybe it's unexplained under Western medicine guidelines. But when I look at things, I'm looking at OK.

Michelle (16:33)

I know I don't like the word, the I word either.

Laurena White (16:51)

Let's look at your period in all its four stages. Is it the follicular phase? Is it the luteal phase? Okay. Is it menstruation? Is it that second part of your follicular phase? Are you ovulating? And is your luteal phase short or long? And are you hot? Are you cold? Like all those different aspects. How healthy are they? So if I look at your cycle length and your cycle length is 21 days, you're probably not ovulating. And if you are ovulating, then your luteal phase is probably super short.

And even if you had a perfect product of conception, there's no place to land. So now we're dealing with, is it your ovaries or is it eaters? So, and then, you know, the other end of the spectrum, if your cycle length is maybe, let's say 45 days, and we're talking still consistent 45 days, then you're probably not ovulating until more toward like day 28, day 30, something like that. But everyone's telling you, you ovulate around day 14. So you're having sex around day 14 and there's no egg there.

you're not getting pregnant. So I think a lot of those things are just the easy things that we don't even, we take for granted. And then when there's irregularities, what is the irregularity and where is it coming from? And I am not an, I'll say it out loud, I'm not an advocate of birth control because it is a synthetic hormone and an endocrine disruptor. And when people are on birth control for years at a time, sometimes decades at a time, it messes up the whole entire menstrual cycle.

not just the menstrual bleeding part, the menstruation part, but the actual day one to day one component. And so some of that work that we're doing is trying to get the cycle to some level of regularity where the person knows, okay, you're ovulating now because why you're looking at your cervical mucus. Some people don't even have any cervical mucus or know when and how to check it. And so those are things that we don't even have to argue about. If you're seeing cervical mucus, now we can time some things because you are ovulating.

If you don't know how to look for those things, now it's my job to help you start ovulating. Or, wow, your cycle length is too short. Or your cycle length is too long. Or you have a blocked tube. All of these things we can work with, but it depends on what you already know about your cycle or don't know about your cycle. And I think unexplained infertility is one of those catch -all phrases because people don't take the time to do the proper examination.

not just physically, but to ask the right questions. And sometimes simply asking the right questions, I find out, your cycles are too short or you're ovulating early, and day 10. And if you're ovulating at day 10, the egg isn't mature enough. Even again, if there's perfect sperm, it's not, you know, it's not gonna be fertilized well enough to implant. Sometimes it's, you know, the uterine lining is too thin because the luteal phase is too short. And then my favorite, sometimes it's not the woman.

Sometimes it's her male partner who refuses to get checked, who refuses to go get a sperm analysis, who does or...

Michelle (19:38)

Right. my God. Yes. Totally. Yes. And then I've even heard some some REs not even asking about the husband. I'm like, what? that. It's so bad. It is. It's it's so horrible. Yeah.

Laurena White (19:51)

Which is criminal, yeah. To me, that's criminal. Yeah, it's worse than bad because now you have this woman jumping through all these hoops, getting pricked and prodded and poked and stabbed and all these things. And it's like, wait a minute, do we know what your partner's sperm analysis is? Has he had it? he knows his sperm as well. Based on what? Because he can ejaculate? Do you know the contents of

Michelle (20:18)

Right, exactly.

Laurena White (20:20)

Can you tell me? Can he tell me? Can you tell me what the semen concentration is? Can you tell me what the sperm count is? Can you tell me what the sperm shape is? Can you tell me what the mortality is? If he can tell me those four things every time he ejaculates, then we have no problem. The fact is he can't. And until you get an examination, none of us can. Somebody has to look at those things. And it could be, yes, he has great sperm count, but are they messed up from years

let's say smoking or over a simple thing is he's a avid bike rider and that will aspect sperm. But there things that we can do even with men that are easier than the things that we do with men. They can take their herbal blend and in two months, boom, sperm count is healthy because men make sperm at a different. Yeah, it's just definitely simpler. So it's not as invasive. doesn't require as much. Definitely changing some habits and making some lifestyle changes. But I

Michelle (20:49)

Right. Exactly.

Right? Totally. Yeah. It's more simple, for sure.

Laurena White (21:18)

that's my biggest pet peeve is that we are still not addressing male and female factor. And when they're both male and female factor issues, both of them need to be addressed. And a lot of times partners are just not willing to do that. And that can be diagnostic in terms of the healthiness of that relationship.

Michelle (21:29)

absolutely.

Yes. And also, I mean, I love that you mentioned birth control because so many doctors will put people, including myself when I was younger, like on the birth control pill and be like, okay, when, when you're ready to get pregnant, you just get off and you just try. Right. It's just, no, it does not.

Laurena White (21:44)

Mm -hmm.

No, it doesn't work that way. It doesn't work that way. And I wish it would, then we wouldn't have as many of these problems. You could just stay on the birth control pill till you were ready and boom, as soon as you stop taking your pill, everything, but it doesn't work that way. It hijacks your body's endocrine system. And so just because you stopped taking it, it has been a threshold. And I say, if you were on it for six years, it's going to take a lot of intensive work to clear that actual synthetic hormone from your body and

help your body realize what its endogenous hormones are supposed to be doing because they've been unemployed for the entire time that you're on birth control. Yeah. So it's just not that easy. that has not been, don't, people don't necessarily educate clients and their patients about that turnaround time. And they're misinformed. And unfortunately that misinformation leads to potentially some life, life changes and lifestyle changes that aren't taking place.

Michelle (22:26)

It's true. Yeah. Yeah, it hasn't been used.

Laurena White (22:48)

when they could and should be happening and unnecessary and undue harms when people are trying to conceive.

Michelle (22:56)

Yeah, for sure. So for people who are trying to conceive, what are some of the steps they should take with doctors? how should they find the right practitioner? like it's a game changer when you find the right practitioner.

Laurena White (23:07)

Yeah. Yeah, I think the first thing is being like, do some research, find out people who had some great relationships, but don't necessarily take that for, you know, the lock, sock and barrel because it could be, hey, this person liked them because they were in and out. They told them what to do, how to do it. And they just did it and they appreciated that. Some people want a little bit more handholding. They want to feel coddled. And I will say the IVF industry or

know, ART as an industry is not about a lot of soft and mushy, cuddly aspect. They're a machine. They get people in so they can get people out and, you know, cycle after cycle. And if your provider is just like, OK, you had had an unsuccessful cycle and they're like, OK, we'll try again next month or we can start again next month. That's a red flag. Your body's not ready. Your body is not ready for another cycle.

Michelle (24:00)

my God, I'm so happy you're saying this. Thank you, Lauren. Honestly, that is so important.

Laurena White (24:03)

It just is not going to happen. Yes.

Yes. And that's money. Your body is not ready. If you had, let's say you're you went through everything and in what's the month? be in August. August. was an unsuccessful, whether it be a transfer or retrieval. And they're like, OK, we'll try again in September. Your body is so not ready for that experience. And I believe the industry as a whole preys on women and their vulnerable vulnerability and their desperation.

For some women, yes, they undergo five, six cycles and they're successful. I am under the guise that after three cycles, especially with no time in between, enough time for restoration and ability to recover, it's not gonna happen. And does it happen? Yes, absolutely all the time. But like, that's not a guarantee. A lot of people think, I'm gonna do IVF and I'm guaranteed a baby. The answer is you're not. And it costs a lot of money for IVF.

So going back to that original question, what should you be doing? There's a thing called preconception care. How are you taking care of your body before you even start to try to get pregnant? Most people try to like, the moment they're trying, they're like, I'm gonna get healthy once I get pregnant. That is the worst time to start trying any new exercise routine, new dietary lifestyle change. That stuff happens before you get pregnant. That's the first thing.

And then it's the interconception care. What are you doing if you're planning on getting pregnant again? What are you doing during that time? And really being able to do some of these things. Like a lot of people will come to me and they're like, I'm having my transfer today. Can I come in and get an acupuncture treatment or I'm having my transfer today? And I've never seen them before. And my thing is absolutely. But keep in mind, these things work better and best as preconception care. When you've been seeing your acupuncturist, you've been seeing your massage therapist, you've been seeing

you know, sometimes you've been seeing your own mental health therapist before or leading up to trying to get pregnant. And not everybody has this luxury because they get pregnant by accident or it wasn't planned. But for those who are planning or even thinking about it, start working on yourself months ahead of time, at least three. And the older you are, probably six, because your body's doing different things. Your hormones are doing different things. And especially if your hormones or

menstrual cycle is not regular or short or there's some other type of aberration, whether it's long, short, irregular, have fibroids, endometriosis, PCOS, all those things. you need a lot more, a lot more time ahead of time in order to make sure that you're prepared for pregnancy. So I think really being able to work with a physician or a provider who is not afraid to work with a traditional medicine provider or team, because again,

We're doing a lot of the heavy lifting that they're not gonna do or they can't do or won't do because all they're gonna do is stick to a protocol. Your injections, it has to be on this day, this time, but the preparation for making sure that that goes well starts three to six months ahead of

Michelle (27:14)

Yes. Amen. Cause I do, I do get people come in like a week before their transfers and while yes, it's going to help. Anything's going to help. It's still not the same. I wish I had more time, you know, but you know, what, can you do? Okay. It's like the times pass. We're here now. Like, let's just do what we can.

Laurena White (27:22)

Yep. Right.

Not. Yes.

Yeah. Yeah, but that's how they've been educated. But that's how they've been educated. Well, acupuncture can work for transfer or retrieval. And so that's what they do. They find any acupuncturist on the corner or in their neighborhood or, you know, sometimes it's the acupuncturist in the facility that they, you know, they happen to be using for their, A or T or their IVF. And that's they do. Even if that person has no

Michelle (27:43)

Mm

Yeah.

Laurena White (27:58)

direct specialization in gynecology and obstetrics issues associated with balancing the things that may be off because of IVF. And I think a lot of times we forget that IVF is still a synthetic process. Yes, it's getting into a place, but you're being pumped with hormones at a level that are ungodly in terms of what your body produces normally. They are synthetic.

Michelle (28:15)

Mm -hmm.

Laurena White (28:24)

And so that's when a lot of women start being sad and depressed and bloating and crampy and angry and mood swings and all these things and water retention. And they're like, I'm just trying to get pregnant. And your body turns into a completely different entity that you are not familiar with because you're undergoing a process that is not natural. That is not in, especially in terms of hormone production that you're getting in ways that your body was never designed to experience.

And yes, it is a means to an end for some people, but there also needs to be a way to balance that so that while this aspect is happening, the Western medicine side has its place, but there also needs to be space created for the traditional medicine side that can balance some of those things while you're going forward toward accomplishing that goal of conception and healthy pregnancy.

Michelle (29:15)

Yeah, for sure. also having a little, you know, when you were talking about a breather for your body and just really like supporting the liver, supporting the detoxification of those excess hormones. And because then you allow your body to kind of come back to that homeostasis, it's really important to do that. Our bodies are just not machines. I mean, it's important to respect that the process of our bodies and really what they're going through. And I think that

Laurena White (29:21)

Yeah.

Yes.

Yep.

Michelle (29:44)

That is something that needs to be thought of for sure. And another thing that drives me crazy, we were talking about the I word, is geriatric pregnancy at 35 years old. I see an eye roll. I knew you were going to feel the same way. It's absolutely ridiculous.

Laurena White (29:48)

Wait.

Yeah.

Yes.

Again, we have the finite, yes, we have a finite amount of eggs. That's not that we're not gonna, I'm not gonna even begin to argue about that. But first we need to realize that the egg quality, some of those things were influenced by our moms and our grandmas. So when you were born, some of your eggs are, it was your grandma and your mom's fault. Like that's just, you got what they gave you. But then at 35, yes, things do change a little bit, but it's not a cliff. You're not like dropping off a cliff.

Michelle (30:15)

Mm -hmm.

Laurena White (30:30)

and everything is dried up and the whole geriatric pregnancy nomenclature is like, how are we doing this? How are we doing this to women and why? And why are you scaring them into thinking that at 35, if it's not done, wrap it up? Because we've seen people, especially with acupuncture, they're in their 50s. They're still menstruating. And I think if you're still menstruating, there's an egg in there somewhere. Again, what the quality is, I don't know.

Michelle (30:37)

Just that word. It's like ridiculous. Yeah.

Mm -hmm.

Right. Yeah.

Laurena White (30:59)

but there's an egg in there somewhere and are you ovulating? Not sure. But if you believe it and you know, we've done your AMH and we're looking at your FSH and hey, then, and so 52 has been my oldest client that has gotten using her own eggs. But yeah, and she had IVF too, but there were, you know, there were her own eggs and everything else, but we worked together because she needed the extra help that IVF was definitely not going to provide. And.

through that process of nurturing her, building up her yin, building up her kidney function, all those things, things that they're not even beginning to talk about in Western medicine. It's like, you need an egg donor. Based on what? Because she's 50? That's not enough. That is not an answer. Your age is just not enough. And egg quality is a thing. Egg count is a thing. All those are definitely aspects that need to be taken into consideration, but everybody's not born the same.

Michelle (31:29)

Mm -hmm.

Right. Yeah.

Laurena White (31:54)

So there's premature menopause where you're in your 40s or earlier than your 40s and yeah, you have no more eggs and you hit premature menopause. But that's also not always just because there's signs doesn't mean or symptoms doesn't mean that's the actual diagnosis. Said main client, she came in and they told us she was premature ovarian failure.

and she was hitting early menopause and I looked at her I was like, your constitution, even when she came to the office, I like, just don't think so. Yeah, was like, I mean, maybe, but I mean, cause it does exist, but her pulses and everything were vibrant. She was strong. mean, just constitutionally, she did not look that way. And I said, let's give it three months. And in three months, not only was she pregnant, she's gotten pregnant again after that.

Michelle (32:17)

Mm

I know you could see it.

Mm -hmm.

Mm I had the same thing. I had similar stories. It's crazy. Yeah.

Laurena White (32:46)

And so my thing, yeah, yeah. And I'm like, why give somebody a, you just told someone who's like, at that time she wasn't even early. She was maybe not even 40 yet. And they were like, yeah, you're premature ovarian failure. You're going to need an egg donor, all these things. I'm thinking, it just didn't resonate with me. And again, could have been 100 % wrong. But my thing is you just need to tweak the things that are in balance.

Michelle (33:02)

Mm

Laurena White (33:11)

And for her to have a baby and again, natural pregnancy, there was no IVF, there was no nothing. And in three months of working together, not only was she pregnant, we continue working together and she's pregnant again. And it's like, so how do you tell someone that? Yeah, you tell somebody that, but that messes with someone's psyche. Someone who's been planning and thinking, and now they think that they have received what I call a reproductive health death sentence.

Michelle (33:16)

Mm Yeah.

Mm -hmm. Amazing. I love those stories.

for sure.

Laurena White (33:39)

because not only are their dreams not gonna come true, now they have to reroute everything. And my thing is not only, is it not like, we got one. No, you've had two. And now she's like, I don't want another one. if, she's like, I know definitely working with you. If I don't want another one, I need to make sure my appointments are scheduled sporadically because she's like, you will get us pregnant. And so it's just one of those things like that frustrates me. the nomenclature that we use.

Michelle (33:40)

Mm -hmm.

That is so funny.

Well, it's the power of suggestion, right? I mean, you're looking to an authority figure and you're getting this diagnosis and you're like, okay, well, I guess that's my, that's what it is. That's my future.

Laurena White (34:06)

Yes, yes.

Mm -hmm. Yep.

That's what it is. Yeah. And it's, it's not only disempowering, but it's also setting someone else up to not believe in themselves, to not understand their bodies in a way that dispel that information or go and conjure. Cause if your doctor says it that, Hey, you're in premature ovarian failure. Why wouldn't you believe

And unfortunately it takes someone like me, our team to be like, I don't know. It could be true, but something's not matching up. And I think so often we get to that place at around 35 where doctors are just quick to say, okay, well, you're going to definitely have to have IVF or you're definitely going to have to have this, or you're definitely going to have to have an egg donor because your body won't do X, Y, Z anymore based on what? yes. Your AMH is a little higher, but that means we just have to work a little harder or a little longer.

Michelle (34:42)

Right, exactly.

Laurena White (35:10)

to counteract those natural processes of life by helping your body remember what it can do. And that does mean making some lifestyle changes. Yeah, because your body still can do it. It's just saying, hey, it's a lot harder now. But also, what are you willing to do? Are you willing to make lifestyle changes? Stop eating some of the things that you've been eating. Stop going some of the places that you've been doing. Start getting some sleep that you haven't been doing or getting. You may need to have...

Michelle (35:17)

Ooh, I love that. I love that.

Yes.

Laurena White (35:39)

you know, seven hours of sleep instead of trying to survive on four because you need that restoration for your body, for your cells, for your eggs, for your ovaries. So your body can do that work. You may need to eat different types of food, eat differently. And yeah, maybe you might need a massage or you might need something for stress relief or you might need some acupuncture and some herbal blood. You might need some of those things to help your body recalibrate.

So it knows and remembers what it is capable of doing. But staying on that same path, you're right. It might be a dead end, but there's also a way to turn that around. And when we do those things, anything is possible.

Michelle (36:17)

just love that sentence that you help your body remember because it's true. Your body knows your body's so smart and intelligent. It was designed to self -heal. That's really at the core of Chinese medicine. Naturopathic medicine says it too. It's really knowing that even Western medicine, they call it homeostasis. We call it yin and yang balance. But ultimately you create that environment where your body comes back to itself.

Laurena White (36:26)

Yep.

Yes.

Mm -hmm. Right.

Yes.

Michelle (36:45)

And that's the beauty is that we do have resilient bodies and we have that ability. think that that's just remembering and having that hope that just because it's not showing up that way now or expressing itself that way now doesn't mean it's never going to is just making those shifts. think a big hurdle is really changing habits. People love their habits. They love their routines.

Laurena White (36:49)

Yes.

Michelle (37:07)

Even if it's not the healthiest, you know, and sometimes even the husbands, like, to try to get them to stop drinking as much or whatever, whatever it is. Yeah. Yeah.

Laurena White (37:08)

Alright.

Yes. Or smoking or whatever, or bike riding, whatever, sitting in a sauna, you know, all those different things. Yes, they provide a benefit, but they're not providing the benefit that you need right now. And all of us have habits and all of those habits address some need that we have. Otherwise, they wouldn't be habits, the good ones and the bad ones. We all have vices and yeah, something sometimes they're vices that

Michelle (37:25)

Yes.

Yes. Yep. Yeah, it's true.

Laurena White (37:40)

air -quilt healthy vices, but sometimes they're vices that we know aren't good for us, but it feeds some type of initial need. But when it's time to do this type of work, which is the growing of a baby, the creation of a baby, we've got to make those shifts because now baby is requiring more of us than we require of ourselves. And I think that's the bottom line is that baby's going to get theirs first. And if you're not ready to create space for that baby to have a healthy environment,

Michelle (37:59)

Yes.

Laurena White (38:07)

maybe that's not your priority. And I think that's a lot of times when things aren't necessarily happening, it's that wake up call like, I need to take the step back. And some of these things that are self -serving now need that energy needs to go toward serving the baby in terms of not as growth and development, not just in utero, but preconception wise. And I think when people make those shifts, that's their first step in motherhood is doing something in service to

unborn baby, even preconception wise. And when they make that shift, it's like, it starts to, this is motherhood. You know, this is that service to something bigger, bigger than me, which is that pregnancy. And not just for that nine months, but before babies even conceived.

Michelle (38:54)

Yeah, no doubt. Amazing. mean, I can talk to you for hours. just, I love the fact that you have, yeah, you have such a beautiful perspective and you really look at like every aspect and kind of like the core of a person, spirit wise, mental wise, physical wise, like in all different ways. And I think it's really cool to have the vantage point that you have of

Laurena White (38:58)

Of course, I know I love talking to you.

Michelle (39:21)

both worlds. I do believe that the two need to work together because there's benefits from every perspective. For people who want to find out more, you have an amazing podcast. So if they want to learn from you or if they might live close to you and can actually see you in person, how can people find

Laurena White (39:24)

Absolutely.

Thank you.

Go to our website, larenawhite .com. That's my first and last name. And we do telehealth visits, so you don't even have to be in the DC metro area. We have a network of providers all around the country. So even if it's not us and maybe you're working with us in some virtual component or remote component, and we'll connect you with a provider in your area who does the work that we do, that we believe in, that we trust, and we coordinate care. So it won't necessarily

Michelle (40:06)

Love that.

Laurena White (40:07)

disjointed, we definitely talk about, you know, all the different aspects that we just talked about here, just so we're all on the same page and, you know, really working together with you. Because for me, it's more important that our clients receive what they need, even if it's not with us. And I'm not too proud to say like, hey, maybe somebody else can do this better or differently. And maybe I'm not everybody's cup of tea, but I do want everyone to get the things that they need.

Again, the podcast is also on our website and I'll make sure that, you know, the link goes in the show notes as well. And yeah, the ability to work with us, I teach, so I always have courses online as well for providers and clients alike. Sometimes providers want to get information because we do have, we address complex women's health. Yes, yeah, and

Michelle (40:53)

True. And we do have a lot of providers listening to this podcast, by the way.

Laurena White (40:58)

Because we, again, I have my own set of mentors who I feel like they have gotten, you know, I go to, I study, I love what I do. And I feel the only way to get better is continuing to do the thing that I do well better. Because if I can get great results in three months, what if I could get those same results in two and a half? Again, those two weeks mean something. And so really being able to not only open up my network of other providers who,

Michelle (41:12)

Yes.

Laurena White (41:25)

not necessarily are like me because there are not many, but if I can find an acupuncturist in your city or state who works with, know, Western Mediterranean providers who are open to that partnership, that's gold. That is gold. I find that it's, it's this challenging. Sometimes people don't, we'll work with everybody because I don't have any shame and I definitely have confidence in my own skill set and I will work with anyone.

Michelle (41:40)

Yes, it is gold.

Laurena White (41:53)

at the behest of what's best for our clients. And a lot of times other providers, because I do use traditional medicine for a lot, they think it's, I guess, threatening their practice or what they're, know, and in the bigger scheme of things, if we're helping our mutual client get their needs met, who cares who gets the credit? The point is, like, it's just, to me, it's one of those wasted energy aspects because

Michelle (42:12)

Mm -hmm. Yeah. Totally. Totally.

Laurena White (42:21)

We're not working for our own reputations. We're working for the benefit of the client. And if we're working together, we all win. And so that is my, that has been my, it's because it just, I don't know, to me it's all common sense, but I realized the longer I do this, common sense is just not that common. And there, we're still like, know, you know, egos and all the different other ills of the world.

Michelle (42:28)

I love that. This is why I love you.

Laurena White (42:45)

And that's the one thing I, you know, is just continue to doing the things and the work that I know works. And again, if you go to the website and the email, you'll be able to find us anywhere. And if we can't help you, then we'll know someone who can.

Michelle (42:57)

thank you so much for coming on the podcast and sharing your wisdom. And it was really important for me, for the listeners to hear really what you can get from a

care provider and what you should be getting from a healthcare provider. So thank you so much for coming on today.

Laurena White (43:15)

And thank you for allowing me to be your guest. I appreciate it. You know, I love talking to you as well.

EP 303 The Impact of Stress and Gut Health on Fertility | Dr. Melissa Levy

I am thrilled to have one of my practitioner certification graduates and fellow acupuncturist, Dr. Melissa Levy. Dr. Levy is a practitioner with a passion for health, wellness, and fertility. Originally from the Philadelphia area, she ventured to Florida to pursue her education at the University of Tampa.

A personal health journey changed the course of Dr. Levy's life. Facing health issues that Western medicine couldn't address, she discovered holistic practitioners who listened and considered the full body as a unit. This holistic perspective helped her understand her body better and manage her hormonal imbalances through acupuncture. This transformative experience inspired her to become a Doctor of Acupuncture and Functional Medicine Practitioner.

Dr. Levy holds numerous certifications, including Certified Functional Medicine Practitioner, Certified Health Coach, and Certified Fertility Coach. As a board-certified diplomate of Oriental Medicine by NCCAOM and a licensed Acupuncture Physician in Florida, she founded the Integrative Wellness Center (IWC) in 2019. Her vision was to create a healing sanctuary for individuals, especially those who have lost hope. Her evidence-based practice model combines patient values, the best research evidence, and her clinical expertise to offer exceptional care.

Initially, her onsite clinic in Jacksonville allowed her to help only local patients. Realizing the need to reach more people, she created online programs and coaching services to share her knowledge with individuals in different locations.

Dr. Levy's goal is to provide the best comprehensive care to those who need it and are willing to make changes to better their health and lives. She aims to change how healthcare is delivered by providing exceptional, holistic care.

Her mission extends beyond treatment; she strives to educate all her patients about the advantages of living a holistic life. Each encounter is an opportunity for her to positively impact her patients' lives, and she approaches this with unwavering dedication and care.

Dr. Levy offers in-person appointments at her clinic in Jacksonville and provides virtual functional medicine consultations for Florida residents and functional health coaching for individuals everywhere. 

Websites:

https://www.healthbymelissa.com

https://www.iwcjacksonville.com

Instagram: @dr.melissa_levy

For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

Transcript:

Michelle (00:00)

Welcome to the podcast, Dr. Melissa Levy. I'm so excited to have you on.

Melissa Levy (00:04)

Yes, I'm so excited. I'm looking forward to this, being able to talk with you again and just dive into what I do and the world of fertility.

Michelle (00:12)

Yes, and I'm so I was lucky enough to work with Dr. Melissa Levy and she was one of my students for my fertility practitioner course. I have to say, I just have to say this. Well, she's kind of stands on her own anyway. Yes, she got an extra certification, but she's like just a phenomenal like knows what she's doing type of practitioner and

I mean, you really like went into everything like no stone unturned. I just love your motivation, your passion. Like, and it was it's legit. I just want to say that.

Melissa Levy (00:46)

Well, I think we even talked about this, like we're kind of just a lifetime learner. even though, you know, when I saw this course that you had, I was like, well, why not learn a little bit more? You know, I'm always diving into something, learning something new. And it just, the field that we're in, it's just kind of never ending of things you can learn and kind of better your education and further it. So it was great to just learn a little bit more and then the more you learn, the more you're open to and the more people you meet. So it was a great experience. So thank you.

Michelle (01:13)

Yeah, and I feel like you were already well versed. I mean, you stand alone on your own. So it was just awesome working with you. But I would love for you to share your background and how you got into wanting to do this

Melissa Levy (01:26)

Yeah, of course. I just remember being, I think most people have a similar story is like growing up, you're not really taught anything about your cycle. I had issues with my cycle. It's probably about 16 and I really didn't get my cycle yet. So I just remember going to the OB and they're saying, oh, all right, well, here's birth control. And I'm thinking in my head, great, now I'll be normal and...

you know, have a normal cycle. And so I didn't know any better and most people don't. So from the age of 16, I was on birth control to help regulate my cycle. And then also having ovarian cyst, I had surgery, I believe my junior year of high school for like a big ovarian cyst, which they thought was endometriosis. So, you know, I'm 16 and they're telling me, hey, you've endometriosis without even looking, you know, looking at anything, just throwing names out there, which I think is something that happens a

You know, people just kind of throw diagnoses and needs out there without really having an idea of exactly that's what it was. So being young thinking, I've endometriosis. What is this? You know, looking it up, being scared, and then getting surgery and them telling me it was a dermoid cyst, which is completely different, which was still kind of weird. But so that was just my first experience. And I just never had normal cycles really ever. And then going.

Michelle (02:32)

Wow. Yeah.

Melissa Levy (02:41)

into my college years. I was always an athlete, so I was personal trainer. I was working a lot, really stressed, a lot of stress on my body. So I just didn't feel good. I ended up getting Bell's palsy, which would not get better. And I was just on antibiotics and steroids for about a year or two years, just seeing tons of different doctors.

Michelle (03:00)

wow.

Melissa Levy (03:03)

not getting any answers. I think the thing that really frustrated me the most was going to a neurologist that I drove two hours to see and saw him for maybe five seconds. So it was just taking medicine, being on birth control, being on prednisone for that long, you feel terrible. So my gut health, my skin health, acne, hormones, nothing felt right. And I look back at pictures of myself from those years and

Michelle (03:14)

Wow.

Melissa Levy (03:29)

thinking I was healthy because I was a trainer and constantly working out and I had a lot of stress in my life as well. Looking back, I just looked unhealthy. I looked puffy and just all the medicines that they had me on, I didn't know any better until I got into the world of more holistic healing and learning more, being in that fitness and health. I was a personal trainer, group fitness instructor, yoga. I always wanted to help people and I think...

Michelle (03:42)

with her.

Melissa Levy (03:54)

this experience really helped me want to understand the body more and I know there's a better way of healing. So I was introduced into more like holistic health and acupuncture. And then from there, I just kind of fell in love with the medicine. when I started acupuncture school, as a student, you're able to get, you know, like $5 treatment. So we were getting treatment constantly and I was actually able to get off birth control and regulate my cycle, which took a little bit going off birth control. skin was...

a hot mess, probably because being on the antibiotics for so long, not even thinking twice about it. But I think within like the three months of just Chinese medicine, herbs, and getting acupuncture pretty consistently, I was finally able to get at least a regular cycle and, you know, just been working on it and haven't really had too many hormonal issues, you know, since then, but it's just a lot. You learn a lot about yourself, I think. And in a way, it's a good thing because then it brought me to where I'm

and I can have a lot of empathy for my patients and saying, hey, you I've been there, you know, I had the horrible migraines, I had the horrible skin and all things I just were told were normal. And last thing I'll say, I'll never forget. I remember I went, I was in acupuncture school. So I was learning a lot, as you know, you start learning things, you know, things that, you know, maybe aren't right that doctors sometimes may tell you. I remember I went to the OB and I was like, hey, you know,

I was told I had, I had an ultrasound done and the tech told me, Hey, it looks like you PCOS. Once again, just throwing things out there. And I was like, so I brought it up to my doctor. was like, I had an ultrasound. said it looked like I had something called PCOS. She's like, no, you don't. You just probably have endometriosis. take some Advil and birth control. And that was my conversation. I, I just left and I was like, what in the world? was because I knew better at that point. And I just left.

Michelle (05:21)

Wow.

my god. Wow.

Yeah, so you could recognize, yeah, that wasn't cool.

Melissa Levy (05:43)

Never going back to this doctor again and not saying everyone's like that. But I think for women, just, we're so, we're just, we're told that, you know, that's just normal, you know, having pain from menstrual cycles, having hormonal balances, all that stuff's normal. you know, Advil and birth control are the solutions to everything. the more I learn and especially getting into functional medicine now, you know, having the acupuncture practice for several years,

I've got more into functional medicine and I think that really connects the dots a lot for me too. I'm getting in hormone health and know, detoxification. So there's so much that as women that we're not even taught about our cycles or so I think just spreading the awareness, I think more women are wanting to know more and

Michelle (06:28)

Yeah, for sure. I know one of the things that really struck me when I was going to school. Of course, I had a very similar situation as you or story where I was given birth control pills as well. I think our stories are actually very common. A lot of people go through this. Yeah, I was so many. I've had so many guests, just guests tell me this, but then I've also had patients come to me and say that they've been put on birth control for this, that and the other.

Melissa Levy (06:42)

Really?

Michelle (06:54)

that had nothing to do with like their actual like root cause. Yeah, it's crazy. It really is crazy. being told, you know, or believing that certain menstrual cycle irregularities are normal. I think that that was the biggest aha for me when I was going to school is that certain things that we thought were normal, like having diarrhea if you have your period or constipation before or breast tenderness

Melissa Levy (06:59)

That's crazy.

Mm -hmm.

Michelle (07:20)

PMS or even cramps that it's actually common. So we think it's normal, but it's actually not normal. So, so what are some of the things that kind of like you saw that you felt like, my God, like I can actually resolve

Melissa Levy (07:26)

Yeah.

Yeah, I think a lot of it was just the mood stuff too. Like I would turn into like just a different person. Like along with that, just hormonal stuff like PMS, just all that stuff that we're told is just normal. I just like dread it heading my cycle all the time. And so I think it gets to a point where it might not always be perfect. know, things happen, whether it's stress induced, you know, if you're having a

month, you know, maybe some of those symptoms pop up and it's a way of your body telling you like, Hey, maybe, you know, check in with yourself, check in with your hormones. What's going on this month that some of these symptoms came back. And I think what you said is definitely true is I'll even do my interviews with my patients and I'll say, so how's your menstrual cycle? it's like perfect. It's normal. Okay, good. So what's that like? Tell me like, do you have PMS? yeah. Yeah. I always have PMS. had

My breasts hurt so bad. I get really moody the first day and cry. I'm like, you know, so that we're told that that's still normal, which is still a thing, but yeah.

Michelle (08:24)

Mm

Yeah, it becomes almost like a background thing that's just like, oh, that's just that. Like it's normal, it's okay. And I think another thing too is just having that something I frequently see, oh, I have a perfect 28 day cycle like textbook, so everything's perfect. But then you start to really dig in like, when are you ovulating? You know, is it early or you know, nobody really knows because they'll either just do LH or not really look into

Melissa Levy (08:35)

Yeah.

Michelle (08:59)

if it's confirmed ovulation, because you could still get a bleed. So there's a lot of those little intricacies that you often don't find in mainstream medicine.

Melissa Levy (09:08)

And I think that's another thing is like we're never taught to really understand our cycle. So when I am working with fertility patients, I'm saying, oh, are you ovulating every month? Yeah, on day 14. Okay. Are you checking your basal body temperature to see that rise in progesterone? No, no. Like I just, on day 14, I just ovulate. know, so it's, some people don't even understand that there are signs that our body tells

And it's not just day 14 that we ovulate, which could really impact fertility because then we could be missing our fertility windows. So there's just that lack of education and how we need to understand. we're never taught, I mean, no one ever taught me that. I had no idea until I got into this medicine that, day 14, or what is cervical mucus? Am I having that? And sometimes I ask women, do you have cervical mucus? Oh, I have no idea.

One of those things that were never, I mean, no one's taught me. And I just think there's not enough time, obviously, in appointments and with your regular OB. So I think that definitely impacts fertility for sure.

Michelle (10:05)

Yeah, I often find too that people don't even really know much about their blood because they use tampons the whole time. That's another thing that I often talk about because it is, first of all, I don't love shoving anything up there. When your body's trying to release, you're basically putting a stopper in a sense. I mean, of course it doesn't stop, it absorbs, but still it's not quite the same.

Melissa Levy (10:12)

Mmm, yeah.

Yeah.

Michelle (10:29)

as really letting it out and letting it flow and letting that gravitational pull release, whatever, not stagnate it. But if you have to, if you must, I'm not saying everything's 100%, but seeing what the blood looks like actually can tell you so much about your period or tell your acupuncture so much, but even you, there's a lot of information out

Melissa Levy (10:36)

Yeah, of course.

Of course, mean, once again, lot of my patients, unless they've been coming to me for a while, they know to look. Otherwise they're like, you said, I have no idea. I use a tampon. Are there clots? I have no idea. know, it's those things that, know, until, unless you've had acupuncture, you're probably not looking for it. And it tells us.

a lot. Our body gives us these signs and symptoms, the tongue, the pulse, the color of the nails, the skin. So all those things give us lot of information, especially the blood. What does it look like? How many days are you bleeding? Are you clots? it spotting? Are you bleeding a lot? Little, is it scanty? So definitely that's a great point. And same thing with the tampons. It's a really good point about stopping and not stagnating the blood.

Michelle (11:34)

Yeah. And I think that because our life is so busy, it's like, you know, it's almost like too busy and really kind of, it's important to allow yourself that rest if you can, with the menstrual cycle. I think that we don't really get that accommodation often just in the world. But yeah, you know, so you see a lot of those kinds of things just from asking people questions and how did you decide you wanted to work with fertility? What was your

your initial pull.

Melissa Levy (11:59)

Yeah, so I was.

pretty much a general seeing a little bit of everything. And I still do, but I think women's health is something that I've always had that love for just because there is such a lack of it and such a need for it. And then I think once I had my son, it kind of gave me that extra like fuel and that like just to learn more and more to, because it's such an amazing love to be a mom. And I want to be able just to give that to as many people and help as many women as I can. So I think that is the thing that really kind

pushed it to kind of dive all into fertility. What all can I learn? How many people can I help? And what is going on? And why is our fertility issues seem like it's kind of becoming more common. And it's one of those things where like cycle issues are an issue or they're prevalent. But now it seems like same thing fertility. It's just like, yeah, I'm having trouble getting pregnant. So it seems one of those things that's just becoming a normal common thing, which I think is sad.

Michelle (12:51)

Yeah, yeah, for sure. What are some of the things that you see just clinically? Like what are some of the things that you notice that might be contributing to people having trouble conceiving?

Melissa Levy (13:03)

Yeah, definitely. So I see stress, definitely, as you probably know. know, we've been, acupuncture has been saying for thousands and thousands of years, the connection between our uterus and our shin, which is our mind. So most women, we have a lot of responsibility.

Michelle (13:06)

Mm -hmm.

Right, and just if people don't know, the heart houses the mind. So the heart houses Shen, which is kind of like the spiritual aspect. Well, spirit, mind, combined.

Melissa Levy (13:26)

Mm -hmm. Yeah, and it's so we've known this for about 3 ,500 years or more. But I think nowadays women are living in a more stressful environment. There's so many responsibilities that we have. Some women have multiple kids already and they're juggling work and family and.

just the pressure. So there's definitely a lot more stress. And if your body's in that fight or flight, you know, it's not going to prioritize, you know, reproduction. If your body thinks, my gosh, I'm in immediate danger. Your body's not like, okay, well it's great time to get pregnant. So I think definitely stress is something I see. I see gut health definitely. you know, so many things come down to our gut and they say, you know, they talk about, you know, our

Michelle (13:51)

Yes.

I want to talk about that. That's a good, yeah, it's important.

Melissa Levy (14:10)

hormones or our body kind of being like that bathtub analogy where, you know, our gut is kind of like that sewer line kind of taking everything out. And if things are clogged up and backed up due to underlying gut infections, which I see very common and, you know, from a Chinese medicine perspective, we look at that as the dampness, the spleen. So the other thing I find so cool and interesting is, you know, Chinese medicine has been talking about all this stuff for 3500 years. And then when you learn like more of the conventional and

functional medicine, it's the same stuff, you know, just in different terminology. So gut health is so important for fertility. And then from a Chinese medicine perspective, we talk about the spleen and the stomach, and it has a huge relationship to our fertility and our overall health. So that's deficient. And we've known that forever. So it's one of those things where I think gut health is so common and such a big topic right now. But it's not a new thing. I think it's something that we've known for so long,

Michelle (14:53)

Yeah.

Melissa Levy (15:04)

Now we're recognizing, wow, our gut is really, important. And so I think that's huge.

Michelle (15:10)

for sure. I will say too, like the gut mind connection, also that's spleen and stomach, they govern thoughts. So literally our thoughts can impact our digestion. Like if there are stressful thoughts, overwork, overworrying, that can impact our digestion. But now they're seeing it's fascinating because I've been researching it, the enteric system, which is your gut nervous system. And then the CNS, which is essential nervous system, which is connected to the brain.

Melissa Levy (15:17)

Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Michelle (15:36)

And so how your thoughts can impact your via the vagus nerve, like there's this back and forth bi -directional communication. And it's fascinating how like Chinese medicine has been saying this forever. And now we're like literally seeing that they're seeing that people with certain types of mental disorders have a different gut microbiome than...

Melissa Levy (15:49)

I know.

Mm -hmm, so interesting.

Michelle (16:00)

It's fascinating. And then also they're saying that people that meditate for a long time have a different gut microbiome that's more diverse and more rich, enriched.

Melissa Levy (16:10)

Yeah, I mean, our mind is, I you talk about that so much, and it's like, how much can we stress it? It plays a big role in, it's sometimes not something that's easy to overcome, and it takes sometimes time to maybe make some lifestyle changes or be able to do things that, sometimes you obviously can't change your environment around you if it's situational, but do things for your body that can kind of offset some of that stress. And then also, working with the gut.

Michelle (16:34)

Yes.

Melissa Levy (16:36)

going to be really important. it's kind of like that vicious cycle of, if your guts impaired, then it can affect your mind and your mind is going to affect your gut. So it kind of just rotates through. So, you know, when we talk about holistic medicine, we're talking about not just singling in on one thing. We're looking at everything. We're looking at the gut, right? Because if you just want one, you know, you're forgetting about everything else and everything is so connected. So you have to look at everything.

Michelle (16:54)

Yes. Yeah.

It is, without a doubt. It's a, cause you were just mentioning two like major things, which is stress and then the gut. But those things are interconnected. They're like pieces of a puzzle. And that's, that's really the beauty I think of Chinese medicine is that, and also functional medicine is that it looks at things holistically, like in all the different parts. And I love that you also do functional medicine and testing. And because I think it's really important to really look beneath the hood.

and see what does your gut microbiome look like. So what could people get from like say a gut testing?

Melissa Levy (17:37)

so much. So your whole gut microbiome, can tell us so much. So what I see a lot is I'll have a patient come in and they'll say, hey, you know, I'm not feeling good. My hormones are a mess. I can't get pregnant, but my blood work, everything looks fine. So then, you know, I look at it. Yes, everything looks fine. Yeah. And then as an acupuncturist, we take two seconds. We look at their tongue and pulse and we can say, whoa, there's definitely a lot going on. And

Michelle (17:53)

So then they get the unexplained infertility diagnosis, right? And then they come to you.

Melissa Levy (18:04)

I like to order things like the GI map, which definitely is my favorite test by far, because it doesn't just say yes or no, you have something. It will give you the value. So it's qualitative PCR. So it looks at all the gut microbiomes, looks at parasites. It looks at H. pylori, which is so common. Yeah, so our gut microbiome. And it's not even like looking at...

know, what can we do to fix it? So sometimes I've had patients, looks at beta glucuronidase. It looks at calprotectin levels. it looks at so many different things to see if there's any gut inflammation in the body. is there dysbiosis? Is there maldigestion? Maybe you're not absorbing all the nutrients. So there's definitely a lot. And, if people even have cycle issues, I've had patients who have irregular cycles and we don't do anything else, but do a GI map and heal the gut. And their cycle regulates by itself on that. So there's so

Michelle (18:53)

That's amazing.

Melissa Levy (18:54)

much if you have someone that can actually read the GI map and knows how to understand it and what the patterns are, it is so beneficial. So I really love the GI map. It could tell us so much about the gut.

Michelle (19:04)

Amazing. And so what are some of the things or implementations and just to kind of give us examples of different conditions. And clearly this is not a one size fits all, which is why you have to test. Cause you could see like what's going on specific to the patient.

Melissa Levy (19:10)

Yeah.

Of course. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, so I mean, I would say some things that I see a lot on the, just on the GI map, for example, like I'll see H. pylori a lot. And then with H. pylori, you'll see things like strep and staph infections as well in the gut. And what that does a lot of times is cause hypochlorhydrial low stomach acid, which is sometimes called things like parasites. You're not killing off things if you have low stomach acid and then maldigestion issues. So just doing things like mindful eating. So taking time and chewing your food, digestive.

enzymes are really important. And then I love antimicrobials like olive leaf and oregano. They're really great. Olive leaf is antioxidant. It's antimicrobial, antiparasitic, anti -yeast. So that's something I use a lot with my patients that have any type of dysbiosis or overgrowth or opportunistic growth in their GI map.

Michelle (20:08)

Have you heard of Mastic for... Yeah. Rachael.

Melissa Levy (20:10)

Yeah, mastectomy. Yes, that's really common. And usually if you have, it depends like what bacteria or overgrowth you have. For example, like H. pylori typically means at least like three types of urge to kill because it is very stubborn. So usually using mastectomy, leaf, oregano, black cumin seed oil is amazing. And that is good against H. pylori. It also helps regulate blood sugar, which is another huge thing I see with fertility issues is blood sugar regulation.

That's another thing that can affect our cortisol levels and our hormones. So I put a lot of people on black cumin seed oil as well, and that's antioxidant as well. So those are things that I definitely recommend for things, but it really depends on what bacteria, what overgrowth, what patterns you're showing. But just common things I see is like hypochloridia, low stomach acid. I see a lot of like dysbiosis, leaky gut, and then really just taking the measured measures and really just putting it into phases

what can we do, remove the gut infections and then build up that gut wall and build up that diverse microbiome again. So it takes time. It's not something that happens overnight. But then I also think looking at why, why do we have this in the first place? Why do we have these gut infections? Why is it stress? it our diet, environmental things as well?

Michelle (21:19)

Right, right.

Yeah, you think of like Sleen Yang deficiency because the fire, know, that digestive fire really is in Ayurvedic medicine, Agni, fire is really what kind of kills off all of those opportunistic bacteria and infections. But if we don't have that digestive fire, all the things that we learn about don't eat ice cream, don't have ice cold drinks, because what you're doing is you're actually diluting that fire.

Melissa Levy (21:28)

Yeah, exactly.

Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Yeah, no, I love that. never thought about that as like the that looking at that as like the stomach acid and that's such a great, great way to look at that. And that's the thing I always come back and find these awesome like relationships between Chinese medicine and conventional or functional medicine. It's like, it's all the same stuff. We just called it different things in a sense. it's, and now that we've all this research that shows and validates everything we've known for a long time. So I do like, you know, combining the two of those in such a great.

Michelle (22:06)

Yeah. Yes.

Melissa Levy (22:17)

great practice to be able to do

Michelle (22:18)

Yeah, no doubt. when it comes to certain conditions, have you had people where you suggested, okay, you you'd need antibiotics for this because it is kind of like really strong where they sometimes they need a stronger one. And then with that kind of help to navigate and kind of work it out with probiotics.

Melissa Levy (22:38)

Yeah, so I haven't had to really refer out for any antibiotics because most herbs and supplements usually are. There's research that shows that they are pretty good at eradicating most things and they have multiple functions and a more broad spectrum. But then, yeah, then adding in the probiotics and different types like espilarity is really good at helping with H. pylori and then doing, that's another thing I love about the GI map is it'll let you know like what's overgrown, what's deficient. So let's say you're a

Michelle (22:49)

Mm -hmm.

Mm

Melissa Levy (23:04)

huge overgrowth of lactobacillus because of maybe hypochondria, right? You're not breaking down the food, so then it starts fermenting and you get that overgrowth patterns, which we see a lot. Then you probably might not want to take lactobacillus probiotic. You probably want to do something a little bit more diverse.

Michelle (23:22)

Right, or maybe a spore -based, right? A spore -based.

Melissa Levy (23:24)

Yeah, or like a school -based probiotic, which are getting more popular now. But then another thing I see a lot too, which I've been seeing a lot more recently is there's something called acromantia. And I see a lot of people that have none detected at all in their gut. And that's a really good thing. And that helps with our gut mucosal lining. And also they show that people have low acromantia, have more things like insulin resistance and obesity. And that's something I keep seeing a lot is there's...

Michelle (23:38)

wow.

Wow.

Melissa Levy (23:52)

like zero detected in the gut.

Michelle (23:53)

Wow, that's so interesting. You know, I have learned a lot that some of the ingredients that we see in processed foods actually shift the gut microbiome dramatically. And I wonder, I mean, if it's like that or toxins that we're exposed to, I mean, there are things that are really literally like we don't even realize have a role or play a role in our

Melissa Levy (24:04)

Yeah, I believe it.

Yeah. And I think another thing is like we, that I see a lot too, is we get into like routines of food and we'll eat the same food over and over again. And I remember like Chinese medicine school, they talk about that. They say your body doesn't want to eat the same thing over and over again, like mix it up. Don't eat, you know, chicken and broccoli for every, you know, every lunch the whole week, because your body wants that diversity. And now we see that with the gut microbiome is like the more diverse you eat, the more different foods you're eating, the more diverse your gut microbiome. You don't want to keep eating.

Michelle (24:34)

Yeah, it's

Melissa Levy (24:44)

the same seven foods all week long, you and I know some people kind of get into that routine of things is that's all they eat.

Michelle (24:48)

Yes.

Right, and they talk about eating for seasons too, because during that season, whatever that weather or the climate, your body's reacting and what will grow around you, the food that grows typically is there to balance that

Melissa Levy (24:54)

yeah.

Mm -hmm. Yeah, like the seasons and that's something I mean, I think a lot of people don't do as well as eating up the seasons and it's one of the things we don't think about.

Michelle (25:06)

fascinating.

you don't think about it because you don't even know because everything gets shipped from everywhere. So you're like, I don't know what's growing now, like here, you know, and I think that that that's like another thing that that and also the endocrine disruptors, all these things that you have to do a little more homework for, but it's not as intimidating as it originally sounds. It seems a lot worse. This is actually why I will say worth hiring a fertility coach.

because you have a lot of that extra time, like all of that is done for you. And, you know, that's the benefit.

Melissa Levy (25:44)

Yeah, for sure. And I also think, like everything's so individualized too. Like what might be good for one person, you know, isn't the main focus that someone else needs. There's so much and it can definitely be overwhelming. Like when you start to think about it, like detoxification and basal body temperature and ovulation, the food, it's like, sometimes that stresses people out and it's like, we don't want this to be stressful. And I also have had patients that'd be like,

Michelle (26:00)

Yeah. Yeah.

Melissa Levy (26:07)

you know, they're like, well, this person get pregnant and they're not eating, you know, super, super healthy, but everyone's bodies are different. You know, we have epigenetics and different stress and everyone's bodies can handle things differently and like that toxic load. And so it's hard to compare yourself to someone else, which is never a good thing to

Michelle (26:14)

Right. Yeah.

It's true.

no, absolutely. somebody might be less tolerant for one thing, but more tolerant for another. And that might be completely opposite from the next person. So you just never know. You really need to like honor your own like body's personality type, I like to kind of say, because it has its own signature, its own personality. Like everything is unique, you know, even though we have the same makeup, you know, we all have like the same organs

Melissa Levy (26:34)

Yeah, exactly.

Yeah.

Exactly.

Michelle (26:53)

of but each person responds differently really to food, environment. I love the saying, one man's

is another man's poison, it's could be something incredibly healthy, but one person could be allergic to it and have a horrible reaction to

Melissa Levy (27:02)

yeah.

Yeah, exactly. even going, I always go back to Chinese medicine, but no, it's like food therapy and you know, I have patients come in and they're like, I look at their tongue and pulse and I'm like, well, you shouldn't be eating these foods. They're like, yeah, but they're so healthy, blah, blah, blah. I'm like, they are healthy foods, but not healthy for you at this time of what you have going on in your body. If you've got a heat and inflammation and you're eating spicy, hot, warming foods, you're going to feel a little worse, right? Versus someone who's maybe a little bit more deficient.

Michelle (27:35)

bright.

Melissa Levy (27:37)

and really needs more of that warming food. it always comes down to individuality, whereas everything similar is yes, we want to make sure we have a good healthy gut and blood flow and mind, but everyone's situation is going to be a little

Michelle (27:50)

totally. Like it makes me think of like the somebody who's really thin and like super cold all the time, but all they want to eat is raw foods and salads and like juice. You know, all of that has such a cold nature. You're just exacerbating like the symptoms and making it worse.

Melissa Levy (28:06)

yeah. Yeah. It's not as people don't want to hear that. I'm like, well, stop juicing. And I'm like, well, it's so wealthy. going eat a little bit more soups in it. And it's not like you can ever do it, but it's all about balance. And I think, you know, things always come back to balance. And we live in a world now where everything's such an extreme, we're either completely vegan or completely keto or completely, you know, one thing and it's, we're working out so hard and won't do anything or we're not working out at all. So it's how can you find that balance

Michelle (28:17)

Yes.

Right, yeah.

Melissa Levy (28:34)

eating a whole diet and maybe doing more yin or calm or exercises during certain part of the cycle and then doing more intense if you want. everything comes back to balance, which is something I think is hard.

Michelle (28:47)

Yeah, no doubt. But it's an art. then once you figure it out, because I think that we're primed for it, we're designed for balance, our bodies know, and our bodies communicate with us when things are out of balance. If we're too hot to want to cool down and vice versa. So it knows what to do. It's always communicating. Sometimes we want to ignore that communication. Over time, we stop hearing it, but it's kind

Melissa Levy (29:03)

We have.

Michelle (29:11)

coming back to it is a lot easier than I think a lot of people think because we're primed for it. We're designed to be connected to that. So I know that you work with a lot of people online. So you're able to basically have consultations with people and do testing of all kinds, like different functional testing based on that either customize, but also that you have a program for people who may not commit to like

Melissa Levy (29:35)

yeah.

Michelle (29:37)

a one -to -one, but they can also just take your course as

Melissa Levy (29:41)

Yeah, of course. So, yeah, so I wanted to try to make a course that was like great for like good for anyone, right? So it's easy to understand, but it kind of covers a little bit of everything. A lot of education, like I said, a lot of it is sometimes women don't understand their cycles or even know when they're ovulating. So there's modules that talk about cycle education. How can we, you know, increase our sperm or egg qualities to talk about the man and the woman talking

functional tests. So if you're like, hey, I want to get some testing, but I don't want to work with someone or I don't know anyone or my doctor won't run these, you can go online to our Rupa store and just put in your own order. You know, I always recommend obviously going over with it with a doctor, but I give you the option, the option of like functional ranges and the standard ranges, which are going to be different. Functional ranges are like optimal where we want you to really be. And we talk about yoga, mindfulness.

supplements. So we talk about a lot in the program. It's self -paced, which is so nice. So had people say, I love it because I can go back and listen to it over and over and over again. And so it was a really fun to make and I love being able to provide that information to people.

Michelle (30:50)

Awesome. And I actually got to see behind the scenes, look at it and it is really, really very thorough. It has a lot of information, really, really well done. I have to say, I really admire you as a practitioner. think you are amazing at your craft, like truly. Really so honored to have been able to work with you and like get to know you, but you really are amazing at what you do. I think that part of it

Melissa Levy (30:58)

Thank you.

Michelle (31:15)

just being really passionate, but also having that drive to keep learning and learning and learning. And I think that that's what keeps us going as practitioners.

Melissa Levy (31:23)

Yeah, definitely. thank you. So sweet. Yeah. We love what you do. You just want to keep learning and it's fun.

Michelle (31:30)

It is fun, right? Well, that's what you want to find. You want to find a coach or has fun doing what they're doing because that's that's ultimately it's a good sign that they love what they do and they're good at it. So, Melissa, such a pleasure having you. If people want to find you, how can they find you?

Melissa Levy (31:37)

Yeah.

Yeah, of

Yes, thank

So I actually have a clinic in Jacksonville. Then I also work online with people with Health by Melissa .com or Integrative Wellness Center of Jacksonville .com. do virtual and in -person visits.

Michelle (32:01)

Awesome. Melissa, thank you so much for coming on. was such a pleasure talking to

Melissa Levy (32:04)

Yes, thank you. Thank you. 

EP 302 From a Near Death Experience to a Trauma Healer | Dr. Allison Snowden

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I welcome Dr. Allison Snowden.

Dr. Allison Snowden is a renowned healer, coach, medical intuitive, and Theta® Healing Expert with over 15 years of experience serving thousands of clients and students from around the world. She offers highly sought-after services including in-person and virtual healing sessions, group sessions, and retreats. Dr. Snowden also trains other healers and medical professionals through her signature programs and courses within the Awakening Institute.

She holds a Doctorate of Acupuncture and Chinese Medicine from the Pacific College of Health & Sciences in San Diego, CA, and has advanced training through the Theta® Healing Institute. Dr. Snowden continues her professional development through regularly attending courses, workshops, and seminars. Her diverse, multi-disciplinary experiences in healing, yoga, integrative medicine, traditional medicine, and Theta® Healing enable her to help patients prevent and recover from trauma-related damage by identifying and releasing the root causes of illness and challenges.

Episode Takeaways:

• Trauma can have long-lasting effects on the body and mind, and it is important to address and heal it.

• Reconnecting with our bodies and listening to their messages is essential for healing and well-being.

• Theta Healing is a powerful technique that combines belief system work and trauma healing.

• Healing trauma and shifting belief systems can lead to embodiment, empowerment, and a more fulfilling life. Societal beliefs and conditioning can have a significant impact on women's bodies and hormones.

• Understanding one's own trauma history is crucial for women's health and fertility.

• The nervous system plays a role in storing information and can affect overall well-being.

• Tapping into divine wisdom and living in one's truth can lead to healing and empowerment.

Website: https://drsnowden.com/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/drallisonsnowden/

For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Check out Michelle’s latest book here: https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

Transcript:

Michelle (00:00)

Welcome to the podcast, Dr. Snowden. So nice to meet you. And as I'm sitting here, I see you. Not everybody's going to be seeing this because it's a podcast, but I see a beautiful flower of life behind Dr. Snowden. And we both are like really obsessed with that symbol. So we'll definitely talk about that. But before we get started, I would love for you to introduce yourself.

Dr. Allison Snowden (00:02)

Hi.

Michelle (00:28)

Give us your background, how you got inspired to do the work that you do today.

Dr. Allison Snowden (00:34)

Great, thank you so much. Thank you so much for having me on here. My name's Dr. Allison Snowden. I'll just go with the formal and then I'll get into the real juicy stuff, right? I have my doctorate and master's in Chinese integrative medicine. I also did massage therapy for about 10 years as well.

and also did a lot of energy work training, Reiki, all of the ones. Like I think my whole 20s and 30s, I was just doing extra seminars. So I definitely am an education junkie because, know, in my, just in my value system, really what we take out of this world is experiences, knowledge, and like our consciousness.

And so I really value investing in my education, but then also just in really upleveling my consciousness. And my journey as a healer, think, I feel like I was born, I was born into a healing family. I was born, my mom's a nurse, my dad's a physician. So I feel like it's just a part of my blood and my

I feel like my first initiation in that was my sister had childhood cancer when I was six. And so she was really sick for a year. And I think that's just when that part of me was activated of like, how can I help her? What is going on? And also just really just wanting to understand.

why the human body isn't working, what is going on. So I think that was the first initiation. And I also, it was very hard for me because I was a very empathetic, very sensitive child, very shy. People that I meet now, you my 40s, they're like, you're shy. And I was like, yeah, I worked really hard on it. And so it was really...

Just seeing her go through chemo, she survived. And then for about 10 years, she would just get sick. And so they didn't know she had an autoimmune deficiency at that point. But I just saw her getting sick, missing school. She had to be on IV antibiotics. And I was just like, why? This just seems like it's not getting anywhere. Like it's just the cyclical thing.

I also was mortified at how people treated her sometimes. I'm very mortified on how people treat chronic pain patients and just people in general sometimes. I mean, let's just be honest, like the lack of sometimes kindness and compassion just for people that are going through something, just for the normal person sometimes isn't there. And that like, I saw, I witnessed that as an observer.

you know, going to get my sister's homework and my sister always looked beautiful, even though she had cancer or she had, you know, like, you know, high mono levels or, and so like a lot of people just didn't have like a scarcity of compassion. So that was very, that, that was very impressionable on me at that age. It actually really mortified me. because I never thought that there was like

there's always endless compassion. is, you know, how does it hurt someone to give someone compassion? So at a young age, I didn't really understand that. And then I just saw a lot of death. And so I was like, in this kind of, you know, I grew up in like, you know, upper middle class, you know, society where it looked like our life was, you know, picture perfect. And it was, I had a lot of love in my family,

You know, my sister was continuously sick. They didn't know. And then everyone who she went through chemo with was just dropping dead. And so there was just a lot of death. So I started to pray to God. was like, I want to understand what the hell life is about. Cause I see, you know, it's, it's something to see when you see your sister who's getting a spinal tap done and they didn't, you know, use any anesthesia.

Michelle (04:25)

wow.

Dr. Allison Snowden (04:42)

and you see how all of this stuff, it's just like micro traumas. You see this and you're like, what is going on? So I just prayed and my cousin died around when I was 14, just in an accident like that. So it was just kind of like all these things. And I think I just had an existential crisis and I was just praying very hard. I didn't know about manifestation back then.

I didn't know any of those principles, but I just was like, God, show me what life is about. God, what happens when you die? I need to know what like I just had this overwhelming need to understand. So a year and a half later, sister is yet again in the hospital and they just find out that she has an autoimmune disease that was associated with her.

cancer, was Burkett's lymphoma and it was associated with a CD4 immune disease. And so they were like, do not go on spring break. My parents had already paid for it. I already had a friend coming. So we went and I'm not going to get into like the details of that, but I had a near near death experience. I was assaulted and then run over by a motor vehicle that was going about 60 miles per hour.

Michelle (06:00)

my God. Wow.

Dr. Allison Snowden (06:01)

So I had a near -death experience. I, you know, shot out, like, if anyone's listening to this, I know it's not a death podcast, but I

Michelle (06:11)

No, no, talk about it because I actually find this really interesting and I think we can learn a

Dr. Allison Snowden (06:16)

The, I, cause my cousin died of a violent, you know, pretty catastrophic motor vehicle accident. And I always worried that he was in pain and he died alone. And like, I just like created this drama in my head, like how horrible it was for him. And I'm just here to say that that doesn't happen. It's very quick. I didn't feel a thing. And,

I went up into this unconditional love of just pure bliss, love, all knowing, homelessness. And I was, I always say to people, that was the best vacation I've ever taken, you know, like literally just unconditional love. It's beyond time and space. and I felt like I was just restored and we remembered a lot of things when I was up there. but it was part of my path, I think to,

be a healer and really to understand trauma and also how to heal it and also especially with women as well. And so I had all of these different downloads up there and I decided to go back and when I was almost, and when you decide it's like faster than light, know, it just is like you're in your body.

Michelle (07:14)

Yeah.

Dr. Allison Snowden (07:29)

I was like, as I was going in, that voice of the divine was like, bring this energy down to earth. And I was like, what? I mean, I would be sitting in the hospital and like, am I supposed, like, can you like translate that for me? Like, can you like give me a to -do list? Like, what do you mean? Right? So, you know, I come back.

There is a whole drama of getting me back home. I had to have emergency surgery and then I was in the hospital, in and out of the hospital for about three years. And then I had like more years of just, you know, just nutrient deficiencies that no one found because I was not going to a functional medicine doctor or someone who really took time. had a thyroid condition, no one diagnosed. I just,

The lack of care in the aftermath of that really made me suffer. And it's not that anyone had any bad intentions. It's just like in our medical system, it's like once the bones are healed, which took three and a half years, which was insane. So many orthopedic surgeries, because my bones wouldn't heal, because they were so badly broken. Like once they were healed, they're like, you're good. And I'm

Michelle (08:32)

It's the system.

Dr. Allison Snowden (08:48)

well, what happened to my last three years of my life? And then, I felt like that's when all the emotional stuff came up because before I was just like, so focused on getting, you know, you know, let's heal this leg, the arm, the, know, like all of this stuff, learning how to walk again, how many times, you know? And so then it was like, Whoa, just what happened. And so, and that's when like a lot of, you know,

I mean, depression, PTSD, all of that stuff. you know, like, I think, like, the psychiatrists said, they're like, you know, I was crying. And I felt like I was grieving and they're like, more than three weeks. well, you're depressed, all this stuff. you know, I think it's there's a there's a whole conversation that can be had around the medicalization of just life events and

you know, how that intersects and how we can support, but how does that repress it? Because I really feel like when our body, when we grieve, when we cry, there's such an, it's, you know, like in Chinese medicine, it's like the tears are the, like, the liquid of the liver. It's like there's change coming. So I really feel like, yeah, that could be a

conversation there, but I just was like a mess. had chronic pain. was diagnosed with fibromyalgia, depression, PTSD, anxiety. then I was told I was always going to be in pain. So that was like my first mission to get myself out of physical pain. And that took a while. And I also wanted to run again. And everyone said I was crazy. And I actually did that.

about 10 years, but it was great. The thing that I think I really wanna like share, and I always try to like distill, cause I always like to share when I'm talking about my story, cause my story is super dramatic and I know this,

the power that like we all come from that source energy and we all have access to it. And we all have the right to have that, you know, that that connection, that direct connection. And if I can do it, you can do it. You know, I think sometimes people are like, well, I can't because I didn't have a near death experience or da da da da. And I'm like, no, you can't, you know. And I really feel

Michelle (10:52)

and

Dr. Allison Snowden (11:13)

in modern times, we've really got disconnected, with our bodies. We've really gotten disconnected with our own power because we've outsourced our healing to other healers, to a system. And we've really, as, us women, like our, we've, we've our body and our power has been dispersed. And so I really feel that as a woman.

because I am a woman, some people are like, ask me about like men's journeys, men healing. I'm like, I don't know, I'm a woman and like, I know what I know. And I've had trauma, I've had sexual trauma and I think women as women, we need, we are much more prone, like sexual violence is very.

is one of the most costly things for a woman to go through just on a psychological level of recovery. And also, I think our whole spiritual journey as women, this is just my view, is really reclaiming our power and our safety and reclaiming our body too. And what happens is with trauma or with sexual assault

something or even just emotional abandonment, there's like this unsafety wound that comes up. And if you know the chakras, that's kind of in the first and the second chakra. And if you don't have your power, you don't have your safety, you're not anchored, you're not grounded. And then you have people that always are ruminating, overthinking, trying to

Michelle (12:36)

Hmm.

Mm

Dr. Allison Snowden (12:49)

figure out all the little details of the plan before they get started, that fear is there. so I've just been on a journey. I started practicing doing massage while I did massage. And Ray, he started teaching that, then went to grad school. And I was always working through that. And then I started my practice in 2013.

And I've always just been a healer healing myself and then sharing it with others. know, like I always feel like I'm, I'm just so pro client, pro patient, because I resonate more with that role than I do like, you know, Dr. Allison, you know, like I'm, I am in the trenches with, I've been in the trenches and I've been really bad physically, mentally, emotionally.

and I got through it and I tried a lot of things that didn't work and I went on a lot of U -turns, you know, but I kept on going. And so I feel like I'm just a really good resource for anyone that has, because I've just been studying medicine and been in -depth training on many different platforms, functional medicine, theta healing.

subconscious reprogramming, other subconscious reprogramming stuff, and then functional medicine, and then Chinese medicine, and then also massage and energy medicine. all of our energy, our muscle, you know, our physical being and our energetic being, these are all interconnected. And also really, I've done a lot

training and then also research into, you know, nervous system and how do we heal trauma? and what does that feel like and how is that, experience and how is that experience within my body and how does that shift my hormones? How does that shift my perception of reality of reality now and, you know, reality there and, and how does that affect

you know, my mood and my thoughts. So, I felt like I was like thrown into the flat fire of just, you know, a mess of just, you know, medical, I mean, it was a medical miracle, I survived. And another miracle that like I didn't have brain damage or anything like that. So,

But I'm just really just on a mission to really help people heal faster and more effectively and really reclaiming their power and also reclaiming their power and their relationship with their body. I think when we have trauma and this can be emotional trauma, can be physical, sexual, a lot of women internalize it because maybe there's not an outlet for anger or maybe that's

Conditioned into us and so it gets turned inward and that is like, you know, then there's like that inner war And so I just really love working with women helping them reconnect to their power and and to their healing potential and their body and the wisdom of their body Because

Michelle (15:50)

Mm

Dr. Allison Snowden (16:07)

You know, our body has so much to tell us if we just listen. And I think just modern culture, you just because of the indoctrination of marketing or whatever, social media, know, all of that, you know, has really disconnected us from like the amazing wonderment of our body. And

You know, our bodies are our best friends. They are our co -pilots. You know, it is it is the sacred vessel that is holding our soul and it's constantly communicating with us. And in fact, my body and my soul, like when I need a message, my body and my soul are working together to get my attention. You know, they're not my body is never in pain just to I think one of the things that humans do and I've done

Michelle (16:46)

Mm Yeah.

Dr. Allison Snowden (16:55)

is like we get mad at our body because we think our body is falling apart just to spite us. Or just, and I just have to tell you that there's nothing more far from the truth. Like our body is like, I had this, I had this moment where I couldn't sleep because I was so uncomfortable in my body. Like after going through that many surgeries,

Michelle (17:02)

Mm -hmm.

Dr. Allison Snowden (17:21)

You know, I just didn't, couldn't feel comfortable in my body. I was in pain and my leg was hurting and I was just like, you know, I mean, I'm like, and, I heard this voice that was like, put your hands on your leg. And I was like, okay. So I like put my hands on my leg and, and my, my body started talking to me and was like, Hey, miss.

Stop hating me. I did not do this to you. I this happened to us This is You know horrible for me I'm working 500 million times harder than right leg over there and all you can all you can do is like Send me hatred and how ugly I look because it was like skinned and looked very You know, I couldn't move my

And she's like, you think I ruined your life? I did not ruin your life. This happened to us. So stop sending me hatred. And if you want me to heal faster, and if you want to help the process, send me love. And I was like, whoa. So I call my left leg the sassy left leg. It always tells me the truth, you know? And I think a lot of us

Michelle (18:33)

wow.

That's profound. Yeah.

Yeah.

Dr. Allison Snowden (18:45)

badly to our body. I I guess it's somewhat natural if something hurts maybe to get angry at it. But I guess really just to our body is in pain for a reason. There is it's a signal and your body has a language with you. And if you can get beyond that, your body is supposed to perform at like 100 percent no matter what, no matter what you do to

Michelle (19:00)

Yes.

Dr. Allison Snowden (19:12)

that is the internal dialogue or how you treat it or how you, you know, fill it up with and, you know, treat it like sleep, you know, self care or lack of self care. You know, our ego just thinks where it's just supposed to perform and just always be like on without like any, any like check -in. And so I think just there is such a magical world of your relationship, like you within you and you within your body, you know, and like,

my body whenever I've been pain free the second time, because I had a weird septic infection like six years ago. That was another weird medical thing that I went through. But I've been pain free from that for about four years. And anytime there's something going on with my body, I'm like, what,

What do I need to do? What are you trying to say to me? And also going into like what I do full time now, I was in functional medicine and Chinese medicine for a good 10 years. And then I started to notice, you know, with like my pain patients, my patients with autoimmune or, you know, menstrual stuff. There's like all these different things and we were pretty good at getting them better, but there's a subset of people

who weren't getting better. And I could see in their eyes, they wanted to get better. And there was just this like, there's something that I wasn't getting. And I was like, this is nervous system, this is trauma stuff. And so I took a theta healing class, and my first theta healing class, and I was like, wow, I'm home, like home as in the vibration of when I crossed over. And I just

Michelle (20:43)

Yes.

Dr. Allison Snowden (20:55)

felt so much better. And so I took another class, another class, and then I like took all the classes and the teacher trainings in like two years, which was like crazy fast track. also, and so with theta healing is, it's the, and I practice trauma -informed theta healing because some people that practice theta healing or energy medicine or Reiki or that, they're

trained to understand what trauma, disassociation, what different things are like. And that lack of knowledge can sometimes create maybe a gap in how they see the client. And a lot of untrained, even acupuncturists, medical doctors, and you'd be surprised how many psychotherapists aren't trauma -informed, which I was like, wait, shouldn't they all be?

that can actually like that ignorance can end up hurting the client, know, blaming them in some way, insinuating some way that they don't want to get better. And that's like so far beyond what the reality is. But with Theta Healing, it's the intersection. So between belief systems, old

that's stored in the body. And so it's a technique to really release these old imprints that are in our organs. You know, if you've had sexual trauma, it's in the tissue, you know, of our second chakra, like our body holds memory. And it's an intersection with that and belief systems and, you know, emotional

know, unconscious emotional patterns that just come up. And I think this is, it is such a powerful access because belief systems and your consciousness and how you feel and your inner state, your like inner atmosphere is everything. Because if your inner state, if you, you know, the thing with with trauma is people are

Michelle (22:49)

Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Dr. Allison Snowden (22:56)

It's in the past. Actually, guys, newsflash, if you have unresolved trauma, it's actually not in the past. It's operating as it is alive now. And this is not the fault of the person who was traumatized. It's because how the brain operates, because we, you know, I know I exist beyond this physical body as this energetic being that doesn't need a body because I crossed over,

Michelle (23:08)

Yes.

Dr. Allison Snowden (23:24)

You know, right now I'm in a body and I'm in a nervous system and I have a brain. And I think that was what was so peculiar to me because I had this enlightened experience about, you know, fear is not real. You know, all that really matters is loving yourself and loving others. And then I go totally down to this

15 year old body and I get anchored back in and my soul gets anchored back into this nervous system that's like, oh no, it's not about love. I couldn't sleep. My body was traumatized. So I was just like, I felt slightly imprisoned by that trauma. Because I knew how beautiful life was and what my soul was capable of. I had

I had to face and heal the trauma and it was a very, I tried everything. So I feel like I've been my first patient always and my first testing ground. And so if something works for me, I'm like, you know, I want to share it because like, I know, and I think when you've suffered in,

you know, a lot like, I always said, if my suffering, if I get to help other people and their suffering, and I see it, I see it now every day, and it's one of the most amazing things about my job. You see people's affect and just their whole state change and their whole world opened up when they heal old traumas, old belief systems.

And we have so many belief systems and programs, we've been programs that are operating below our consciousness, and it's just on automatic. And I really do think that this is also the kind of meeting point between healing and also enlightenment, healing and total embodiment, like

embodying your power, being in your body. I mean, really in your body. Because I gotta tell you, if you've had any trauma, emotional trauma, medical trauma, you're probably not totally present. You're not totally grounded in your root chakra. And I can remember people being like, you need to ground. And I'm like, great, well, I just did.

Michelle (25:35)

Yes.

Dr. Allison Snowden (25:44)

90 minutes of yoga, that didn't work. I did yoga for 13 years. That didn't, I mean, it helped, but it didn't, it didn't, you know, lock me in. And so I really do think that I'm so grateful that I stumbled onto this technique because it really, in a laser way, really did a lot of good healing work in a really short amount of time.

And I never thought it was possible. Like I never thought it was possible for, cause you know, I'd lived with like 20 years of anxiety and PTSD managing it, managing this condition. And it was like two years ago where I, you know, I'm healing, teaching, I'm taking more courses and there is a healing that happened. And I just, I was like, Whoa, I'm in my body. And I was like,

this is really nice, you know? And then I started to talk to women and I'm like, when I talk to them, I'm like, and I'm intuitively tuning in, what I see is like, okay, they have their programming from society that's been indoctrinated. I'm supposed to have a baby at da -da -da -da, I'm supposed to do this. My husband wants this, this person wants this, this person wants this. I gotta get the kids, da -da -da -da -da.

all these different things. I want to please everyone. How can I please any everyone? Then there's the unconscious resentment because who's going to take care of me? And so when I scan someone, I can feel all of these little programs operating like going like that with women. And, you know, that's usually from like a fawn response, you know, of like people pleasing because all of us, I don't know, maybe not all of us, because that's the generalization. But a lot of girls are conditioned to

you know, if we please others and that's good girl, you know, maybe that's changing. mean, I was born in the eighties, so maybe that's different. But so how is that relevant to like, you know, fertility to women's health is that all of this is operating within your body. And these programs and and and these beliefs are very strong. They affect your hormones. They affect.

if your cortisol is going up, you know, it is, I know there's some trauma survivors who are like, people are like, oh, just, you know, stop being so stressed. Well, that's a little complex. If you've had abuse, if you've had neglect, you know, it's, it's not, it, you know, like going to the doctor or being like, oh yeah, just do some 10 minutes of meditation. So yeah, no, that, that probably is not going to solve it, you know?

So first you have to know yourself and know, and I think what the thing is is that a lot of people, my story is very dramatic and they're like, she had trauma. there's, it's pretty dramatic. But I wanna say that a lot of times if you have large gaps in memory of your childhood, if you have certain fears or things like that that you can't trace

your body remembers what your mind doesn't. And so, and there really isn't really true suppression of it because, you know, it's either gonna come out in your mental health, your perception of yourself or in your habits or your lack of self-love. Cause a lot of times we, in order to deal with trauma, we turn into self -hatred or we recreate those mean voices inside our own internal narrative.

And that has consequences on our body. So, or, you know, it'll show up as an autoimmune disorder later or cancer, you know, so it's there, you know, we're gonna, I feel like people deal, I have that, have a catalyst, whether it's, you know, trying to have a baby, or having a disease or an accident or something where it really, you know, makes us look inward.

Michelle (29:42)

Yeah, for sure. And you know what, I thought about so many things when you were talking and I can really relate coming from my own experience and wanting to do more for others. And I think that a lot of us in the healing world started out as our patients, as patients ourselves and work through a lot to see that we can do that. I think a lot when I think about trauma, I think a lot about the nervous system. And you've mentioned

the nervous system is kind of like a channel of information and think about just experiences in life. We store information. We're living in a time where we are, are bombarded with information. Women are growing up with all kinds of information, not all true. A lot of it's not true. And then we take in that information, store it in our body. And it's not based in truth, not based in reality. And you had mentioned kind of connecting with that divine wisdom.

that is always there waiting for us to tap into. We have that, it's our birthright. So, I mean, so many of these things I really relate to, and I think that that's what it is. It's really creating, really living in our truth, because I feel like the truth is kind of like the light, the purification, the shedding of things that are not true. And I kind of feel like that's, you know, if you think about trauma and all these beliefs,

there are basically untruths, things that are not true that we are taking in, we're storing in our body and it doesn't align with our consciousness. And when you said like that we're not in our bodies, I totally relate to that. You think about shamanistic work. They always retrieve souls. They retrieve part of ourselves. Like part of ourselves leaves our body. People talk about this in, you know, horrible victims, know, victim situations where they leave their bodies and

It's kind of like a part of our soul leaves. And I talk a lot about this, you know, with Qi, with Qi life force vitality. When we create awareness, our awareness actually opens us up to more Qi. And when we lose that Qi and our awareness is off or out, then we're lacking that life force vitality. And so that consciousness or the lack thereof, if we have a lack of consciousness in certain parts of our body, then it causes more opportunistic.

energy to come

Dr. Allison Snowden (32:01)

Exactly. it's, I think, it's our truth and our power, right? Like, I think, I really do think as women, because those are the, like, because I've been working and scanning a lot of people for a long time. And probably one of the most common patterns that I see is just disempowered, like, root and sacral

And so when those chakras are disempowered, I'm like, there's a safety issue. Then there's a power issue, a sexual issue, a creativity issue, a receiving, because if you've had sexual trauma, there may be some issues of receiving things from others, right? All trauma is usually, unless it's hurricane or like

Michelle (32:34)

Mm -hmm.

Dr. Allison Snowden (32:49)

you know, national disaster, all trauma is usually delivered somewhat by through another human. And so that really, that, and you know, that is real. And then a lot of us to put another, you know, nuance on that, a lot of people, especially if they had childhood trauma, neglect, abuse, a lot of people don't even know that that wasn't, you know, neglect or abuse.

until they're older, just how our brain is developed and how that happens. But also if then, if there was something like molestation or sexual trauma, there's, most people are gaslit about that. And I don't know, I was just like scrolling on something. I was looking for something on the internet and then, I don't know, I saw something.

Michelle (33:27)

Mm -hmm.

Dr. Allison Snowden (33:35)

I guess it was like on Facebook and there's these like raw stories about just people's childhoods. And I just like went into the comments and I sometimes do this. I feel like it's sometimes just some of my advocacy. I'm like just two comments, Alice, and then you have to get back to work. just people like someone saying, her story is not making sense or da -da -da -da.

Michelle (33:58)

questioning.

Dr. Allison Snowden (33:59)

you know, questioning her and I'm like, no one wants to go through this, you know,

Michelle (34:06)

There's a lot of that out there. It's really sad to see.

Dr. Allison Snowden (34:10)

It is, and it really is. so, I mean, just to anyone who's, know, and I've spoken out about my experience, like, and some people are like, you know, like, you know, all of these different things. And I'm like, think our culture is like a major issue with judgment. And I just...

Michelle (34:30)

Big time.

Dr. Allison Snowden (34:33)

It is just amazing to me. You know, like I, you know, the lack of empathy, the lack of real inner connection to self and real connection to others and that like people just say things like just I think they're just getting out their anger and, you know, like forgetting that these are human beings that may read these comments. But, yeah, I mean, I think

But yeah, like with the gas lighting. So that's another thing that happens with trauma or wasn't that bad or that type of thing. So I really do think also it's like with trauma, if you didn't have someone to help you process the emotions, trauma is also what didn't happen. So if someone wasn't there for you, if someone wasn't there to help you process your emotions,

Maybe you didn't have parents that knew how to process emotions, because they were dysregulated all the time. So just the part of feeling and learning that skill and feeling is really important. know, like as in Chinese medicine, our emotions, the over or under expression of our emotions can cause disease, you know, or the stagnation of that can cause disease. And that's why I love

Michelle (35:43)

Definitely.

Dr. Allison Snowden (35:47)

Chinese medicine as like my base point because it acknowledges that now, like now if you look in the research, like in the seventies, was like psycho neuro immunology was just coming out and people were like, this is such, you know, BS, but like now it's like, yes, like it's, it's validating that, you know, everything is connected to everything.

and this old like Dick Hart kind of the mind is over here and the body's here and they operate like is just kind of actually like real just it that's that's been disproven over and over. But our.

Michelle (36:29)

I think we're definitely moving into a new era. I really do. feel like things are breaking down. hard to watch, but I feel like things are breaking down that are not working. And I think people are starting to see it. People are starting to see the staleness of some of the old systems. just doesn't really, it's not relevant. You know, and I think that it will, it's interesting. say old system is ancient medicine has been around forever, but they consider the spirit.

They don't just look at us as a body. They acknowledge

Dr. Allison Snowden (37:00)

Yeah, yeah, the spirit, the emotions, also all of the little intricacies of life and nuances and connection. And I think that's where you were talking about the nervous system. I think there's, love, like, have you heard of polyvagal theory? So

it's about just the different branches of the nervous system. And like our ventral vagal part of our nervous system is the most like new evolutionary. so ventral vagal is like our social aspect. Like you're safe, I can connect to you and I can connect to myself. And

but if we go into sympathetic or into, you know, kind of shut down freeze mode, those are the different stress stress points. So like when you're in those different nervous system, states where you're, if you've been in a collapse mode or freeze mode, you're like numb withdrawal, there's, there's a physical symptoms that go with it. And then also mental, like emotional aspects that go with it when you're in fight flight.

your nervous system and your perception, your body is really like being like, it is not safe for me to connect out there, you know, and it's looking for cues for danger. And so how, how Theta healing and the work that I do is that I work with the individual because unhealed belief systems from trauma or just even conditioning. and a lot of these are subconscious unconscious.

in our they're alive in your in your nervous system and they'll, you know, turn on your stress response when it's not needed. Right. So when you heal a trauma, then, you know, it's no longer in your consciousness. It's no longer, you know, disrupting you or, you know, there are I never had like issues with remembering my trauma, but there are people who have repressed trauma and more shut down mode. But.

I just, I don't know, I, for me, I thought like I was just going to have to manage my PTSD because I tried so many different, you name it, I tried all of the things. I had, you know, I never ever gave up, but I was like, hey Al, you know, like maybe this is, you know, and I was like, I'm never gonna stop trying. And, you know, it wasn't,

you know, one class or one session, or even, you know, it was a cumulative of a lot of work with me, because I had such extreme, like, violence that was, that my body remembered. But, like, I did get there where I finally was like, my God, I feel, I feel safe.

Michelle (39:40)

Amazing. That's awesome.

Dr. Allison Snowden (39:41)

And girls, like all the women on here, that is the best thing I've ever felt in my life. And it is the best thing. Like I want that for every woman because when your soul is like anchored into all your chakras and you feel safe in your body, like there's your heaven on earth.

Michelle (40:04)

I love that. my God, that's powerful.

Dr. Allison Snowden (40:06)

It is, it is, and I like literally, I'm like, you know what? No one, no amount of money could make me like give this away. Like not that I could, but, but like, it's, I think what happens is, is sometimes our ego, I'm, I'm sure, cause we're all human. We've done this. when, or this is how my ego worked. Alison, when you, when you have the boyfriend, when you have, this or the marriage or, or you have this much. Yeah.

Michelle (40:16)

yeah.

The conditions, all the conditions, yeah.

Dr. Allison Snowden (40:34)

external, all the external, this is how everyone's ego tricks them. When you achieve something outside of yourself, then it will change how you feel inside. And hey guys, it does for like maybe a day or maybe a week or maybe the honeymoon period for three months or something. But eventually, you know, like that is not the way. And

Michelle (40:50)

Right, yeah.

Dr. Allison Snowden (41:02)

It's like really changing our programming. So our programming, our conditioning from childhood, our identities, our stories that they show up as narratives. Because when we're little, our brain, when we experience pain as a little kid, we're trying to understand how to not make that happen again. And from our little brain that is under, that is not an adult brain, that doesn't see adults as flawed human beings,

the little child brain is like, my parent is not paying attention to me, then there must be something wrong with me. And then there's that adaptation. Maybe I'll just be more perfect. Maybe I'll work hard. So then you have all of these adults that are just living these adaptations from, and I'm not shaming that at all, because we all do it, because we all have to survive, and we all are coming from that.

Michelle (41:47)

Mm -hmm, that's

Dr. Allison Snowden (41:55)

There's a lot of talk about authenticity, but do people really think that their authentic self is their stories, their ego tells themselves or the stories that their trauma tells themselves or the stories that the bullies at school back in fourth grade tells them? And how do you really know that it's healed? Right? Cause there's a lot of people like, don't, especially men, they're like, I don't need healing, I'm over that. And I'm like, well, let's ask your body. And so with thinking healing,

We like in a session like I do we make in theta healing the subconscious is divided into four different levels So in other other systems, it's not divided in that but in theta healing we have The core level which is this life. So in utero up to you know this moment in time Genetics, so, you know what in our bloodline what

and also what traits carried the genetics forward, know, what belief systems. And then there's the historic, which is the collective consciousness, because we're all connected and that all these collective thoughts, but then also past lives. So, and then the deepest part is your soul, because your soul, guys, maybe you forgot it for a little bit, but all of us have this energy and we decided, or we are incarnated for a reason.

And each of you, because I've been over on that, I've peeked behind the other side, each of us have a specific, a very specific reason why we're here and different experiences we want to experience and different virtues and different virtues as in compassion, love. You we want to grow through our consciousness, our frequency.

grows through experience. And as we have different experiences, we get to learn a lot. And I really love this part of Theta Healing because

Our soul, and I can speak to this, I think sometimes, so when my soul, when I was overlooking the earth and I saw my body and I saw what was happening or what had happened, I mean, my soul was like, well, you it was almost like, I mean,

I thought I was gonna survive this, but okay, I'll get another body and we'll just go back down there. You know, it's like, I think sometimes we get so entrenched in, know, this is who I am, I'm this. Yeah, attachment. Yeah, to this body, to whatever, even the drama that's going on, even the politic, you know, all of it, it's like there. And it's like, but from your

Michelle (44:25)

The attachment to like this. Yeah.

even the problems and yeah.

Dr. Allison Snowden (44:39)

soul's perspective, like a little drop in the bucket, you

Michelle (44:43)

right. It is. Yeah. I mean, we do, we can get very sucked into, to so many different things. And you could see it kind of in the micro too, like just throughout your life. If you have something that you're thinking about, write it down. Actually, my husband said that, a friend of his mom said, write down whatever

put it in your drawer, open it up a month from now, and then ask yourself again, are you still as upset? And he did that. And he said that really, and he was a teenager at the time, he said that really opened my mind to just how things end up working out and how much energy we put into problems. But this is amazing information. Of course, I can speak to you for hours, but we're kind of nearing the end.

If people are interested, like what's the process, how can they find you and how can they work with

Dr. Allison Snowden (45:28)

Yeah. so I'm on my website is www .doctor Snowden. That's dr sn o w d e n .com. And then I'm on instagram at dr Allison Snowden. And through there I do one on one. And then what I'm really passionate about. I love doing my one on ones.

and I love teaching others to access this and to do it to themselves because we all need help. But I really think this is a skillset that is going to be like, you know, brushing your teeth, like for mental, emotional, spiritual balance that, and it's powerful. You know, if you have a limiting belief.

Michelle (46:00)

That's amazing, I love that.

Dr. Allison Snowden (46:17)

Like you can say, I don't believe that, but guess what guys, your body believes it. like, just cause you say you don't believe it, like there is that. it's, so Theta, I do Theta healing classes and it's a curriculum. So you have to do them, you have to do them in order. The next one is in September. So I usually have a beginning cohort in September and January. And sometimes I do a mini like condensed, like,

Michelle (46:21)

Mm -hmm.

Dr. Allison Snowden (46:41)

session in June. So I really just, think if you want to just upgrade your life and heal, like, and also in these classes, we have professional healers, we have doctors, we have healers, but then we have just regular people that just want to, you know, get more connected to their intuition to heal themselves, like quicker and faster. And it's such a simple thing and everyone can learn how to do

And I want, like, I just, like, one of my dreams, like, is I just want to get, like, I want this to just be like, because, you know, when I was talking about this when I was like in 99, you know, now it's like 20, 24, but I just, I'm pretty excited like you, because we've come a long way, but, you know, I think everyone, you know,

Michelle (47:09)

I love that.

Dr. Allison Snowden (47:38)

needs to learn at least the basics of self -healing. Because you

Michelle (47:42)

100%. They should teach us this in school. mean, it's just, it's empowerment 101. I mean, really, like, just be able to be empowered like we're, it's our birthright

Dr. Allison Snowden (47:45)

Right?

it is. And so I just I love that. That's just like my my thing right now is just to get a lot of people there's the first four classes are weekend classes. And then the one that if you guys want a miracle or want a whole paradigm shift, intuitive anatomy is a 15 day class and we go through you would love this other healers like love this. So we go and clear each system. So the circular

the digestive system that has a lot of abuse programs in it. So we have a whole day and about 200 beliefs that we check and we do healings and clearings on. And like people just feel different things like discipline. It's amazing when your perspective changes, your physiology changes.

Michelle (48:34)

Amazing. Awesome.

Your whole world changes. love it. I love it. This is of course all the stuff that I love talking about. And I'm so happy you came on. Your story is so inspiring and I love what you're doing for so many other people. Guys got to check out her Instagram. It's a lot of fun. She shares a lot of awesome information. I really enjoy it myself. Dr. Allison, it was such a pleasure to meet you. I knew that I was going to like you and thank you so much for coming on.

Dr. Allison Snowden (49:02)

good

gosh, I like, I love talking to you and you have such a, like just a beautiful energy and like just really like my, you know, I, cause I do a lot of different podcasts and I just felt so like at home here. And I just like want to share that with you because it's just like, I just like your energy is just so welcoming and so loving. And I just like, I'm like, God, I just love my like Healer Women. We're just

I just, you know, we, you know, I just absolutely had such a, it was so great being in this space with

Michelle (49:39)

Aww.

that means a lot to me. really, I really received that and, and I appreciate it. feel likewise. I mean, I really love your energy, so I think it's synchronistic. So thank you again so much.

Dr. Allison Snowden (49:57)

You're welcome. Sending you so much love and thank you for listening, anyone who's listened. And if you have any comments or questions, feel free to email us or send us a DM. And we're here to help you guys heal and love your body, love your life, create what you want.

Michelle (50:16)

Amen. Awesome.

Dr. Allison Snowden (50:18)

Yes.

EP 301 What is The Feminine Fertility Cure? Rosanne Austin

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I welcome back Rosanne Austin @rosanneaustinfertility. Rosanne has been on my podcast before, so if you want to hear her backstory, you can check out our first conversation on Episode 216. In our conversation, Rosanne shared her Fearlessly Fertile Live World Tour and her upcoming book, The Feminine Fertility Cure. She shares her motivation for going on the tour and the impact it has had on women. Rosanne explains the importance of reconnecting with femininity for fertility and discusses the historical context of the masculinization of women.Her book aims to educate women about the masculine and feminine energies and how they relate to fertility. The conversation explores the paradigm of progress and success that has been ingrained in society, emphasizing the importance of education, financial independence, and career achievements. It discusses how this paradigm has influenced women's choices and perceptions of femininity. The conversation also highlights the need for women to reconnect with their feminine nature and desires, and how this can positively impact fertility. It addresses the societal pressure on women to conform to a masculine ideal and the negative impact it has had on women's happiness and fertility rates. Rosanne shares practical steps for women to tap into their feminine power and improve their fertility.

Takeaways

• The Fearlessly Fertile Live World Tour allowed Rosanne Austin to connect with women in person and witness the impact of her work.

• The book, The Feminine Fertility Cure, explores the historical context of the masculinization of women and educates women about the importance of reclaiming their feminine nature for fertility.

• Reconnecting with femininity is crucial for fertility.

• Feminism should be about equal rights for men and women, including the right for women to choose to stay feminine. The paradigm of progress and success has influenced women's choices and perceptions of femininity.

• Reconnecting with feminine nature and desires can positively impact fertility.

• Societal pressure to conform to a masculine ideal has negatively affected women's happiness and fertility rates.

Guest Bio: 

Rosanne Austin, JD, PCC, received her coaching training from the honored Coaches Training Institute in San Rafael, California. She is certified by and a member of the International Coach Federation, which is the leader in professional training, standards, and ethics for coaching professionals.

Rosanne is also a proud member of California State Bar. She received her Juris Doctorate from University of the Pacific, McGeorge School of Law, where she was on the Dean’s List and received the Witkin Award in Expert and Scientific Evidence. She also holds a Bachelor of Arts in History from San Francisco State University, graduating Summa Cum Laude.

Rosanne’s professional background has given her the honor and opportunity to directly impact thousands of people’s lives, at a time when they were vulnerable, fearful, heartbroken, and at a crossroads.

Rosanne is the author of 3 bestselling books and her work has been featured on leading podcasts such as The Doctor Mom Podcast, Infertility in the City, The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, Infertile AF, Finding Fertility, The Hormone Puzzle Podcast, The Egg Whisperer Show. She has also had leading fertility experts such as Dr. Zaher Merhi, Dr. Aimee Eyvazzadeh, Dr. Robert Kiltz, and Dr. Christiane Northrup on her top 1% Fearlessly Fertile Podcast.

When she is not writing, mentoring, speaking, teaching, leading her transformational events and programs, or loving on her husband and son, Rosanne gives back by serving organizations committed to providing resources to survivors of Human Trafficking and for the protection of abused/abandoned dogs and cats.

https://www.frommaybetobaby.com

https://www.instagram.com/rosanneaustinfertility/

For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Check out Michelle’s latest book here: https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

Transcript:

Michelle (00:00)

Welcome back to the podcast, Rosanne.

Rosanne Austin (00:03)

Thanks for having me, Michelle! Such a good place to be!

Michelle (00:07)

Yes, so excited to have you back. know I love you if I have you this many times back to the podcast. So I want to talk about your upcoming book that is coming out, The Feminine Fertility Cure. But I also want to talk about maybe before that, your tour that you just

Rosanne Austin (00:20)

Yes.

Michelle (00:29)

had but are continuing soon.

Rosanne Austin (00:31)

Yes. Yeah. Well, so this so we started this year in March. We started the Fearlessly Fertile Live World Tour, which is kind of hilarious because I I was thinking to myself it was last October when this idea came to mind. So October 2023. And then we start all of the stuff that goes into it by January 2024. So I'm a pretty quick mover.

like, want to make a decision. let's just go on a world tour. And it was funny because the thought behind all this leading up to the book and everything else that I'm doing right now was a desire to really connect, to connect with the women who love the work that I do or who are curious or maybe just starting their fertility journey. But I was pretty sick of sitting behind my computer.

Michelle (01:00)

You are, man.

Rosanne Austin (01:28)

and being just disconnected, right? Like you and I both know because we're cool and we do this work is that we know we're energetically we're connected, but I think there's something dramatically different and rich and really colorful and just super interesting about connecting with people in person.

Michelle (01:28)

Hmm.

Rosanne Austin (01:51)

And so I just said, fuck it, let's go do this. And I'm like, I don't know how to do it world tour, but I do know how to travel. So the team and I just sat down together and kind of mapped out the cities where we thought we could have the most impact. And we just started traveling. So it's not like I had any experience prior to actually doing it, but I think doing it is the best possible teacher. So we started on the West coast of the United States. We did San Francisco, LA.

San Diego, and then we went on to the East Coast where we did DC, New York, New York City, and then we went up to Buffalo, because interestingly enough, I have a sizable audience in Buffalo, New York, and then we went to Toronto and Montreal. And all of those locations were just fantastic, just getting to hug my ladies, hold their babies, and really see the

fruit of what I put out in the world, but more importantly, how women take that message, apply it to their own lives, and are creating these insane results. So it was from the East Coast. We came home to Texas for a couple weeks and then got back out on the road and we started in Europe in May. So we did, my gosh, it feels like.

It was just a few weeks ago, it feels like, you know, we got back on June 3rd, but we were in Florence, Paris, London, Manchester, Birmingham, and we're in Edinburgh. And then it, yeah, it was like, boom, boom, boom, boom. tell ya. But it was great, you know, when we were filming the whole thing, our intention is to complete a documentary.

Michelle (03:33)

That's awesome.

Rosanne Austin (03:43)

on the work that I do and the impact and all of that good stuff to really inspire women to look beyond their current circumstances and stay focused on their vision for their lives because I met so many women along the way, some women that I had never met, some women who I just read the book or some women who were just listening to the podcast that were creating such crazy results.

And it's hard to wrap your head around. So that was also like, that was part of the intention was to get back into the trenches, but it was also to see and assess for myself what the impact could be so that I could get better at what I do. So I can really see, you know, how can I take this to the next level? How can I serve at a higher level or what the vision might be? So it's been wild. It's been really crazy. And actually,

Michelle (04:17)

and then.

Rosanne Austin (04:38)

At the time of this recording in a couple of weeks, I'll be in Chicago. And then we have a few dates in here in Texas. And then January, we're looking at New Zealand, Australia, Singapore, or Dubai. So it's a legit world tour. Yeah.

Michelle (04:52)

love that. my god, that is just so freaking, And I love your dedication. I know you talk about like hundreds of thousands of women that you're gonna like help them conceive. I don't know if it already happened. I don't like at this point. But I know that you really have such a passion about spreading this message and empowering so many women, so many couples and

How did you decide on the locations, first of all? Did you do it based on like a survey of some people like knowing where they live or the audience?

Rosanne Austin (05:27)

Well, you know, it was kind of, it was sort of both where I'm like, I'm looking at, okay, what are the major metropolitan areas? And so it wasn't like, it was strategic from that point, but it also had to be cities I was interested in going to. Like if I'm not interested, I don't go. And if I'm not interested, my energy's low, I can't, you know, because the energy in the room.

Michelle (05:40)

Yeah.

I can't imagine your energy being low because I feel like you're so aligned you would never do anything that wouldn't be.

Rosanne Austin (05:52)

Yeah, well, I mean, but that's kind of part of it is that, you know, but the energy like that that I was getting from being in all of these different places. And it was because I consciously chose them and was excited about them. And the women showed up like it was it was really cool. It was really, really cool to see and to watch that growth and and really

Michelle (06:09)

Amazing.

Rosanne Austin (06:22)

You know, because it's kind of funny because I still see myself as you know that former prosecutor with this just this idea. But it you know, so many years later, it's not just an idea. It's an actual movement. It's a phenomenon. So it was exciting and it was such a gift. It was very humbling. I would say is another thing that came up. It was very humbling to see how when women make a decision and how when women are really committed to the dream.

Michelle (06:36)

Mm -hmm.

Rosanne Austin (06:51)

that they can make anything happen. I mean, I sat there with women who had been told so many different times and in so many different ways that having a baby was impossible. I mean, women who had stillbirths, women who had devastating losses, second trimester losses that were in the room holding babies. I mean, it was breathtaking. And I don't think I have fully processed it, like, because I'm always on the go. I'm always like,

Michelle (07:07)

Okay.

Wow.

Rosanne Austin (07:21)

kind of moving through to the next project. But it was, you know, when I have quiet moments, which I do have, but when I sit and really think of the enormity of it, it's extremely humbling and it's a real testament to the human spirit. I mean, that's, I mean, the reason why I do this work is, you know, one, I find it exciting and I love learning. I'm a perpetual student. I love keeping my edge sharp.

Michelle (07:38)

I love that.

Rosanne Austin (07:48)

But it's also like, I really love watching these women wake up to their own power, because that's at the essence of what I do.

Michelle (07:56)

Oof.

I love that. I love that. And I think that that's why I love you so much. I truly do because I feel I could really relate to that because it's just it's freaking amazing. There's nothing like it because people do have power. I think that seeing people not know that they have that is painful. And you want to make sure that everybody that you really come into contact realizes just how powerful they are.

So I'm sure based on what you're telling me that you have some incredible stories. So if anything jumps out, I would love to hear about it.

Rosanne Austin (08:37)

Yeah, yeah, no, I mean, but we share that commonality in the work that we do is that it is the essence of what we're doing is trying to well, and I only try to wake up people that want to be awake. So much like you. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Much like you is that when the student is ready, the teacher appears. And that's what we're there to do based on our expertise, our training, our background, our commitment.

Michelle (08:51)

Mm -hmm. You have to. You can't. You can't force it.

Rosanne Austin (09:07)

we come in and we say, hey, there is another way. And let me show you this modality. And you know, because that's, people have to understand that fertility is like a mosaic. They are all these different pieces. And no matter how you arrange those pieces, you are always the foundation. You are always the glue that keeps everything together. So when you are not aligned or when you have a belief system that keeps you stuck repeating old patterns, then,

It doesn't matter. It's funny, we were talking about this earlier, but you can't out supplement, you can't out yoga, you cannot out treat a belief that says you can't have what you want or you're not worthy of what you want. Or that you have no power, essentially. I mean, because it's all lies. I mean, think about what we were talking about before about the energy in our bodies, the meridians, all these things. When we were talking about your book, like,

Michelle (09:56)

Yeah.

Rosanne Austin (10:05)

It is the essence of saying you have the power. So anything that separates you from that reality is no good. So this work is really about coming back to understanding that you are the foundation. Once you have that foundation and then you add the beauty of what you do or the beauty of what other people do and medicine and all these other things, you can get to a place where...

Michelle (10:09)

Yeah.

Rosanne Austin (10:31)

you realize that you're making these things that you want, you're making them your reality. Baby, home, car, profession, all of these things that come together to create a really full life. So it's, yeah, it's pretty cool. It's pretty cool shit.

Michelle (10:46)

I just had a vision in my head as you were telling me that of like a computer. You can have like state of the art parts and everything put together, but if the program is not installed, that is going to help you get from A to Z.

Rosanne Austin (11:01)

Yeah, no, that's a beautiful metaphor. That's like the perfect metaphor. I'm gonna borrow that. I'm gonna borrow it. I'm gonna say thank you, Michelle Orovitz for this amazing visual here because it fucking makes sense. Yeah.

Michelle (11:06)

Take it, take it, it's a gift. Yes. Yeah.

And physical parts itself is doing all the things, out supplementing and all of that for sure. And so let's talk, I'm very excited to talk about this, the feminine fertility cure. tell us everything.

Rosanne Austin (11:29)

Duh.

okay. So this this book is many, many years in the making. So and it actually Yes, yes, yes. Well, and it was funny because I actually can thank Chinese medicine for this because when I was on my own journey, I had no idea I was stuck in my masculine or my yang as you would say it. And

Michelle (11:38)

Those are always the best ones.

Rosanne Austin (12:00)

I thought I was kind of a weirdo. I just thought, you know what, I got this problem. Like I'm not able to receive, on the exterior, I'm, you know, yeah, I'm feminine. I wear makeup, I got cute clothes, I get my nails done and all that. I had all the physical outward trappings of femininity, but my energy was decidedly masculine. Now I was starting to ask questions about why that was.

At first I thought, well, it's just my profession. As a prosecutor, it's decidedly masculine profession. You have to armor up. You're going into a courtroom, possibly with a homicidal maniac or a serial rapist. You gotta have your armor up. But what I found out is that the armor was never coming off. And as I started, when I got on my journey and then I started teaching other women what I had learned and then I left my work as a prosecutor,

and really went full throttle into what I do, I started seeing a pattern that a lot of other women I was serving also had this problem with a disconnection to their femininity. And I observed it for a while and I'm like, okay, let me just take note of this. Let me just take note. And...

Michelle (13:12)

Yeah.

Rosanne Austin (13:19)

I was like, well, there's something to this, you know, this idea of conceiving is all about receiving. And if we're stuck in our masculine and disconnected from our feminine, how the hell are we ever gonna receive from our partner and conceive? So I really started to take note. And because I serve such lovably type A recovering control, freaky professional women, you know, at the top of their game who are primarily in more

Michelle (13:32)

Yeah.

Rosanne Austin (13:49)

masculine professions, it, so many of us get stuck and I'm like, well, how the fuck do we get unstuck? And then I started to work through that. I looked at what I was doing. How was I reconnecting with my feminine? And I'm like, okay, so let me take what I learned, start teaching it. Let me start studying more. Let me explore more of this feminine. So when I started incorporating this kind of work into what I was doing, I saw the results skyrocket.

Michelle (13:56)

Mm -hmm.

Mmm.

Rosanne Austin (14:18)

within women to help them reconnect to the feminine. But what was more interesting and the questions that I started answering with this book, The Feminine Fertility Cure, was where the hell did this start? Because you don't just have a couple generations of women completely disconnected to their feminine. Where did this start? So I started doing research, and this is where it gets super interesting. I'm like,

Michelle (14:40)

Hmm.

Rosanne Austin (14:46)

If you look, and I only speak about the United States because that's where I live, that's what I know, that's a culture I was raised in. But if you look at what has happened to women ever since the women's movement, it's actually quite shocking. And through the research and watching it myself and being caught up in it myself, we really got this message that

since the women's movement in the 1960s, I use in my book, the Kennedy administration as kind of this line of demarcation that post the Kennedy administration in the United States, there was a concerted effort to masculinize women, to take us away from our feminine nature. And we were sold, well, I don't really call it sold, I call it a fucking scam. In my book, we were scammed out of our femininity because what we were told is that, yeah, get out in the workplace, you know,

get yourself out of the shackles of domesticity and you're gonna be free. But what was really happening was a systematic masculinization. So we were taken away from our feminine nature and told that you have to work hard, you have to dress like a man, you have to pack up your emotions, you have to conform, separate yourself from your spirituality.

Michelle (15:48)

Okay.

Rosanne Austin (16:08)

and femininity is weak, we started to see all of these things that if you wanted to be a successful woman who represents progress, be more like a man. And the data's undeniable. It's undeniable. Like, because you think about it, and of course, I went into a profession that, as like I said before, as a prosecutor is very masculine. There's nothing feminine about anything that you're doing there.

And when you spend long enough in that masculine mode, you get disconnected from the feminine. You don't even know what it is. Like, you'd be surprised, Michelle, how many physicians, surgeons, lawyers, engineers that I work with, like when I say the feminine, there's like this giant question mark over their head, like what? You know, but when you look at some of the propaganda that we were fed as

Michelle (16:45)

Hmm.

Rosanne Austin (17:05)

you know, anyone born post Kennedy administration. The idea was, is that in order for you to be free and to have progress, you got to go into life in a certain way and it's decidedly masculine. So what this book is about is educating women about basically how that happened, educating about what the masculine is, what the feminine is, how it directly connects to fertility because

Michelle (17:34)

Yeah.

Rosanne Austin (17:34)

I don't care what anyone says. Having a baby is the most fucking feminine thing you will ever do. And this is why trying to do it from young in your terms or like a man in mine, I watch women try to get pregnant like a man all the time and men don't get pregnant, okay? We as women do. And when you're trying to do a decidedly feminine thing like a man, you find yourself with problems. And another thing about

Michelle (17:47)

Mm -hmm.

Rosanne Austin (18:04)

The masculine, which, and I've got nothing on the masculine. I've got no complaint because the masculine and the feminine work synergistically. You and I know this. One is not better than the other. That's not what I'm saying here. But what this work is about and what I get into in this book is really encouraging women to reclaim. It is all about reclamation. Reclaim your feminine nature because

Michelle (18:26)

Yeah.

Right.

Rosanne Austin (18:31)

It's from the feminine that you are going to heal what ails you when it comes to your fertility. Because when you think about the masculine, it's go, go, go, do, do, do, you are not enough, you just work harder, do more, be more perfect and this will happen. The feminine, I mean think about what the feminine stands for. It's the spiritual, it's the nurturing, it's the fertility.

Michelle (18:58)

creative.

Rosanne Austin (19:00)

Yeah, it's the creative, it's the surrendered, it's the open, it's the receptive, all of those things. I mean, those are some important things when you're trying to conceive. But when we're stuck in man mode, we are completely cut off from that. And then we keep beating our head up against the wall trying to figure out why I have so much inflammation. Why do I have all this stuck energy? Why do I feel like nothing's moving? It's because you're stuck in man mode.

and I want to say this because some, you know, this, I want to be super clear, like this book is not political at all. Some will probably read this book and accuse me of being anti -feminist, but I come from the perspective, I look at feminism as in a very legalistic way, that men and women have equal rights. That's it. That's it. Any, for me, anything beyond that?

starts to get far afield, people abuse it, all this other stuff. So I come from the perspective that, you know, because around that time people will say, well, you don't think that was a good time because this is when, you know, feminism rose up. Well, yeah, and so did a lot of other things. Okay. So I'm looking at this strictly from when we look at feminism and believing that men and women have equal rights under the law. And we say that a woman

deserves to have a right to choose in just about everything in her life and that also includes staying feminine, right? Because the messaging that we got was the only way to be successful is to act more like a man. Think about this, Michelle. So I'm 50 and I do not recall ever hearing messaging that staying home and having babies and being in a relationship was a legitimate option.

Michelle (20:35)

Is it?

Rosanne Austin (20:51)

The only thing I ever heard was leave the house, never depend on a man, get an education, make a bunch of money and be untouchable, right? That was the paradigm of progress.

Michelle (20:56)

Mm -hmm.

You see it everywhere. You see it on TV shows, on movies, like everywhere, everywhere.

Rosanne Austin (21:05)

Yeah, that was the paradigm of progress and success. And think about it, I remember, and this is like, this just shows how deep the programming is. I remember a girl in my high school class who wanted to get married and have babies. And I remember thinking, poor thing, that's a life thrown away.

Like how anti -woman is that shit? I mean, that's how deep the programming was. And I thought I was the quote unquote feminist back then. Like not respecting that woman's desire and her otherwise legitimate choice to live her life with traditional feminine pursuits, right? And the whole point of this is not to say it's bad to have a profession or it's bad to stay at home. It's none of that.

It's a masculine paradigm that tries to force us into choosing. Rather than saying, okay, we as creative, resourceful, and whole women get to move through those things. You know, like you might do time as a prosecutor, you might do time as a physician, and then decide that your soul is saying, I really want to go home, I want to get pregnant, I want to have babies and chickens and a garden. Like that's legit.

Michelle (22:01)

Right, yeah, good point.

Rosanne Austin (22:27)

But yet that, you know, so much of the messaging up to this point has been, that is the lesser choice. Like the feminine is the lesser choice or the feminine is the weak. And so everything that I'm talking about in this book is saying, look sister, your fertility and your issues with fertility right now are a wake -up call. It's a wake -up call to come home to the fucking feminine because...

Your femininity, your feminine is your fertility superpower.

Michelle (22:58)

love that. my God. So many things come to mind. And I'm thinking about the Yin and the Yang. Like imagine the Yin and the Yang start arguing with each other or like fighting like each other's nature. Well, you should be like this. You should know like everything in nature has the Yin and the Yang. They need to be there. They need to be there. Otherwise, this is what my professor told me when we first learned about it. Like when Yin and Yang separate, there is death because we need the Yin and Yang for vitality.

Rosanne Austin (23:23)

Mmm!

that's so good.

Michelle (23:26)

So we need that and it's like really to kind of bring it to that and I am going to talk science right now because in so there's been a couple of studies that I saw about having sex outside of the fertile window. When women are more sexually active, which they naturally would be if they felt connected with their partner. It's just like a natural tendency. But what happens physiologically?

is when they are more sexually active, unprotected, even outside of the fertile window into the luteal phase, you know what happens? A woman's immune system starts to change from what it was before. And what happens is the immune system starts to bring its arms down a little bit more. It starts to become more receptive, more calm. It lowers itself. It stops being in such a fight mode, ready to attack.

And design. When it does that, when it knows, okay, I'm in receptive mode here, we're having more sex, I'm getting familiar with the sperm, I allow it in so that this isn't an invader. I'm receiving, inviting, allowing. So this is literally like what you're telling me here.

immune systems don't do that because they don't receive they they're putting out it's a different energy it's a different flow it's a different direction.

Rosanne Austin (24:48)

Mmmmm

Yeah. that's so beautiful. I love that you shared that because, you know, it's a really warped thing that we have gotten into as women. And when you think about it, it really is insidious.

Like why, I mean, we even see this today because we were talking about, like if we look at the women's movement from the 1960s, like the intention was good, of course. We want women to have equal rights under the law as men. That's obvious, that's basic, it's a human right. But when you look at how that got warped and then it's like, okay, well, if you really wanna be free, get out of the house, do all this stuff, start acting like a man, you know, we even see images in media.

Michelle (25:25)

Mm -hmm.

Rosanne Austin (25:41)

and film and all this other stuff of women being, you know, having sex like men, which is wildly unnatural. Like that's not our natural state as women to be like predators in that sense, you know? Yeah.

Michelle (25:56)

we have more oxytocin and it actually is meant to connect us more to one person.

Rosanne Austin (26:03)

Right, right, right. And then, you know, we see this ripple effect that it's had and we look at since about 1970, and women will have to take a look at the book to get the dates right. I have so many dates and numbers, you know, stuck in my head from having done the research, but it was around 1970 that we started to track women's happiness on a consistent basis. So we have data going back to

Michelle (26:19)

Yeah.

Rosanne Austin (26:32)

approximately from 1970 to about 2006, that tracks with not only did the birth rate go down, because we have things like, you know, no fault divorce, we have the advent of birth control, abortion being legal, all of these things, these new cultural things that happen, that as women left the home, pursued education, made more money, had fewer children,

there's actually an inverse relationship. So the more educated a woman became and pursued those more masculine results, the less happy she became. And I believe the number is 35%. happiness has dropped by 35%, the more educated that we became and the more separated from the home. Now what's funny is this research that came out of the Wharton School of Business showing that like is the

Michelle (27:16)

wow.

Rosanne Austin (27:31)

antithesis of what we were sold about the women's movement, that we would be happier when the data shows quite opposite. And then you look at the issues that we have today with dismal and terrifying birth rates. We went from one in eight couples struggling with fertility to one in five.

Michelle (27:50)

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. That's crazy. Yeah.

Rosanne Austin (27:54)

I think the average woman today, I think the number was hovering about 1 .7 children per woman. That's not even sustainable population growth at this point. So there are so many things that, and there's so many things that go into it. I'm not just saying that it's because we all become masculine. There's also plastics in our food. There's also glyphosate and rampant, overuse of medications and all kinds of

Michelle (28:06)

Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rosanne Austin (28:23)

you know, fluoride in the water. I'm gonna put my tin foil hat on right now, people can see it. But it's actually not, yeah, I mean, there's just so much stuff that has changed, but you can't deny that our attitudes have changed. And you know, women are having babies later. And I think that's a beautiful thing, but it also is indicative of a systemic cultural shift to say that, well, you don't have babies until...

Michelle (28:29)

The radiation, everything.

Rosanne Austin (28:50)

You've made this much money, you've had this much education, you've done X, Y, Z, you've published this number of papers. It's, in a sense, like, I really feel like women have been conditioned away from having the highest degree of choice. And it's heartbreaking. And then when women finally are in their 40s and they're trying to have babies, they go into the fertility world hearing that the window is closed.

Michelle (29:18)

Mm -hmm. Right. Right.

Rosanne Austin (29:18)

and too bad for you. So it's like, it's like you can, you find yourself getting to this place where you're saying, well, is this all there is? Because having babies is not just a fleeting desire, it's a longing. And if it was made, let's just say like it's a passe idea to be at home, have babies and pursue a happy home life.

If that was just passe and everyone's beyond it, tell me why the fertility industry is a multi -billion dollar industry. People still want it. This is why you have women getting to 45, meeting the right partner, and then longing to have a baby because it's innate in us. It's innate. It's fascinating. It's super, yeah.

Michelle (29:55)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Mm -hmm. Yeah. Yeah.

It is fascinating. And the fact that you're really looking at the research and you actually have numbers and percentages, that is what is so cool about this. And I think also, you know, all the messages that we get, you know, you're too old, but did you know, do you know what the highest, the Guinness Book of World Records, highest naturally conceived and birthed child, highest age?

Rosanne Austin (30:35)

No, what maybe in the 60s?

Michelle (30:37)

You're going to love this and you could use this. Use this all you want. And I know you will because it's so freaking good. 58. 58. And it's a woman from the UK, Dawn Brooks, I believe was her name, and from the UK of all places where there's a lot of deficiency in vitamin D. But yeah, yeah, she did. And then I think about, actually, I remember Tori Quisling had mentioned

Rosanne Austin (30:46)

I love it.

Michelle (31:02)

She didn't mention the name, but she had mentioned how one person breaks the record and then other people hear about that and then all of a sudden they're breaking the record. And that really goes to the Roger Bannister effect where they said, there's no way you could break that four minute mile and then one person breaks it and then four others do within a couple of weeks from that.

Rosanne Austin (31:15)

Mmm.

But yeah, but that's also like a scriptural reality too. I mean, you look at ancient books, you hear about women being fertile at times, whether people choose to interpret that as a metaphor or not is their business. But you hear about women being able to do miraculous things very late, allegedly in life. And so this is why I wanted to write the book because I find that when women tap back into their femininity,

Michelle (31:28)

Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Rosanne Austin (31:53)

They tap back into the love of self. They tap back into self -care. They tap back into their truest desires. They speak them, they rest. Instead of doing what they should do, they do what they desire to do. It drops the level of stress and puts them in a more receptive yin mode. And then we see women, I mean, I've seen this in my own practice. You see women who were given single digit odds.

Michelle (32:01)

Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Love that.

Rosanne Austin (32:22)

going and getting pregnant with ease when they go, they tap back into their nature. You know, it's just, it's fascinating. So like I had a woman that was in my program who was 52. And what was interesting about her was that she had this longing. She had this longing. She had, you know, she was a successful business owner. She was like, I just don't feel like my life is complete.

Michelle (32:27)

Thank you.

Rosanne Austin (32:50)

I am intended to be a mother. I'm intended to be a mother now. And she pursued this child. And now her son's like probably a year and a half old now. Like it's just fascinating. And what it required for her to get there was tapping back into that feminine desire. So my objective in this book is to educate women about what the feminine is, show them how it has been.

programmed out of us and ultimately what to do to reclaim it. Because we see that once you improve your self care, the stress level goes down, the data shows consistently that when cortisol levels are high, it takes longer for women to get pregnant and it negatively impacts results in controlled environments like IVF. Like they've seen this. They've even tested hair samples.

women with the highest concentrations of cortisol have the biggest struggles. And it's just wild. And so when you think about this from a mindset perspective, and you think about the very masculine messages women have gotten about what success means, it's like when you change your mind about what success looks like, and you start looking at it from a feminine perspective, then you can start changing the game.

and you can heal yourself, you can heal your fertility, and you'll do that through a more open mind, more receptive, look at different opportunities and different things that come up. So it just gives us the ability to tap into our innate feminine nature so we can do the innately feminine fucking thing that we're trying to do. So yeah, so that's the essence of what the book is about. And...

Michelle (34:36)

Yeah.

Rosanne Austin (34:42)

Women can find the book anywhere the books are sold and it'll be out August 2nd.

Michelle (34:50)

I love that. And so question, as far as momentum goes, because I know that when we're in a path, we're on a path and we just keep going, going, going and say we're like on a masculine path or we've been conditioned, I find that it's just like you start to take a momentum and it's very hard to switch gears and shift back, even if it is our nature. So just if anybody's listening, what are some of your thoughts or anything you want to share about like really

getting to that place of switching gears.

Rosanne Austin (35:22)

Okay, one of the greatest ways to switch gears is to look at your fucking results. If you do not like your results, you have to have the humility and the open heartedness to say, what I am doing is not working. And to say that from a loving perspective. Like I don't look at things not working or mistakes or things that have happened in a negative way, right? They're just new.

Michelle (35:34)

Mm -hmm.

misalignment.

Rosanne Austin (35:46)

Yeah, and it's just, it's more nudges in the right direction. So if you don't like the result that you're getting, then you have to ask yourself, what isn't lined up here? What can I do better from a loving perspective, from the perspective of commitment to what I say I want? And one of the first steps is how connected am I to my feminine? Or what is my thought process? What are my thoughts telling me?

you know, are my thoughts sounding more like a man, like, mm, you know, wagging the finger saying, you're not enough, this is stupid, why are you doing this? It's decidedly more masculine, right? When we're in our feminine, there's gonna be nurturing that's saying, hey, hey, babe, you know what, this isn't working. Let's look at something, some other options, right? It's decidedly different in energy. So number one, if you wanna switch gears, look at your result. From a completely dispassionate place, just say, hey,

is what I'm doing working and if it is not, what can I do differently? That's like the first step is that level of awareness. And then the second step would be to decide to be different. Now I know that that may sound vague, but in some ways it kind of is because for everyone the pursuit is gonna be different. What do I need to do different is gonna look different for everybody. I come from the perspective that it all starts with us.

It all starts with the mind because when your mind is lined up, then you'll do the right physical things. You'll pursue different things like your work. You'll pursue different avenues and a constellation of new opportunities will show up because you were different. So number one, look at the result. Number two, give yourself the opportunity like, hey, what can I do differently here? Truly from a place of, hey, I'm super committed to what I want.

and I wanna get there. So if I can love myself enough through this process and give myself plenty of runway to try things, it's more likely that I'm gonna get there than if I keep my narrow vision that there's only one way to get there. Because the feminine is all about the meandering. It's all about the exploration. And...

Michelle (37:59)

Yeah.

Rosanne Austin (38:02)

You know, if it was as simple, Michelle, as a sperm and an egg coming together, then not one of us would suffer on this journey. But we know that, you know, everybody's different and the journey is nonlinear. So it's like, open yourself up, try something new. Try the feminine fertility here. See if that works for you. Because I've seen women around the world tap into this power and create insane results. And it's my sincere hope that women listening will do the same.

Michelle (38:15)

Right.

I really think that you're doing the right thing for your purpose. Like I really do. I feel like you are truly activated and doing your purpose and working your purpose because I feel like you're really making so many transformations happen. And I see it. I mean, it's literally happening around the world and it is a movement and this is why I love you so much. And I could keep talking to you for hours. I know you have to go.

I would love it if you just tell people how they can find you. Otherwise, I know the book's gonna be everywhere. Books are sold, right?

Rosanne Austin (39:07)

Yeah, yeah. Well, I love you too, Michelle. And I really appreciate the support that you give to my work. And we're such a great pair because our work is so synergistic. And it's just fantastic. And I'm really honored to share that with your audience. And here's the thing. I like to encourage women, look, trust yourself. Trust yourself.

You have this ability to do this and there's nothing to be afraid of when it comes to the feminine. The feminine is your fertility superpower and the feminine is not just pink and sparkly shit. It's going to be expressed in your own unique way. And the sooner you make up with her, the sooner that you make her okay to be back in the room, she's gonna be your BFF. She is your fertility BFF and she's gonna show you the way.

Michelle (39:51)

I love that.

Rosanne Austin (40:00)

So I'm really excited to get this out in the world. I really hope women receive it with the love that it was written. And yeah, thanks for having me on. Thank you for sharing this.

Michelle (40:06)

Beautiful.

thank you so much for coming on. It was awesome.

Rosanne Austin (40:13)

Thanks, Michelle, bye!

EP 300 Can Mind-Body Techniques Improve Pregnancy Outcomes | Naomi Woolfson

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, Naomi shares her personal fertility journey and how she discovered the mind-body link in fertility. She emphasizes the importance of mindset and emotional well-being in the fertility process. We discuss the concept of toxic positivity and the need to embrace and process uncomfortable emotions. 

Naomi highlights the science-backed positive psychology techniques that can reduce stress and improve fertility success rates. Mind-body techniques can improve mental health, relationships, and overall quality of life.  Naomi emphasizes the importance of feeling good and finding joy during the fertility journey. She shares the power of hypnotherapy and emotional freedom technique (EFT) in shifting beliefs and accessing the subconscious mind. 

Takeaways

• The mind-body link plays a crucial role in fertility, and mindset and emotional well-being are important factors to consider.

• Toxic positivity can be harmful, and it is essential to embrace and process uncomfortable emotions.

• Science-backed positive psychology techniques, such as mindfulness and hypnosis, can reduce stress and improve fertility success rates.

• Mind-body techniques not only improve fertility outcomes but also enhance mental health, relationships, and overall quality of life. Managing stress and finding joy during the fertility journey can improve overall well-being and increase pregnancy success rates.

• Hypnotherapy and emotional freedom technique (EFT) can be powerful tools in shifting beliefs and accessing the subconscious mind.

• Challenging medical assumptions and seeking second opinions can provide new perspectives and options for fertility treatment.

• Feeling good and having positive emotions can have a significant impact on fertility and overall health.

• The Embrace Fertility Method offers a comprehensive approach to fertility support, incorporating various techniques and personalized guidance.

Guest Bio: 

Naomi Woolfson, of Embrace Fertility, is a trauma trained therapist specialising in supporting women emotionally and energetically to conceive, carry and birth the babies they long to hold.

Alongside supporting clients globally in one to one therapy and coaching sessions Naomi runs an online 12 week mind-body group programme guiding women through the 5 steps of her unique Embrace Fertility Method; Comfort, Coping, Connection, Clearing and finally Creating.   

Naomi hosts the Embrace Fertility podcast offering emotional support and sharing mind-body techniques to help you feel calm and confident and ultimately find yourself again while waiting for your baby.

Personally Naomi and her partner went through almost 4 years of infertility, IUI’s, IVF, anxiety, surgery and a miscarriage before conceiving both of their children naturally.

Visit www.embracefertility.co.uk for instant access to Thrive - A deep dive into the science backed mind-body techniques to emotionally and energetically thrive while trying to conceive. 3 x 30 min videos. 

Naomi also offers specialist pregnancy support and runs the hypnobirthing course Embrace Bump to Baby of which the first week is free. 

Instagram @embracefertility

https://www.youtube.com/@embracefertility

https://www.linkedin.com/in/naomi-woolfson/

For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

Transcript:

Michelle (00:00)

Welcome to the podcast, Naomi. I'm so excited to have you on today.

Naomi (00:04)

Thank you for having me.

Michelle (00:06)

Yes. So I would actually, first of all, love if you could tell your story because I know you've been through your own fertility journey. And I also, of course, I'm going to be very excited to talk to you today because as you know, this is like I nerd out on like the mind, body and just like how the mind works. And so I'm really excited to have you on. And then I just wanted for you to introduce yourself and give us your background.

Naomi (00:34)

Yeah, so I went through infertility myself. We ended up having four rounds of fertility treatment. I was actually diagnosed with endometriosis as a teenager and told that I would probably need IVF to have children. But got married and I was like, nope, that's not gonna be me. I could be one of those women with endometriosis that just gets pregnant and it's fine. And I was very into the law of attraction and the secret and...

manifesting and set those intentions. I just set the intention. I was like, we're ready for a baby now. Come on. And then nothing happened. And then, you know, I was manifesting, I was doing my vision boards, my affirmations. And instead of getting a baby, I got ovarian cysts and ended up needing to have surgery. And they were like, you really, you know, really push you like into treatment now, like your endometriosis is getting worse, like every month you're not getting pregnant.

endometriosis is spreading. So I had a laparoscopy, they removed the cysts, did some laser action on the endometriosis, did treatment, didn't work, did more treatment, didn't work. And I was getting more and more anxious, more and more depressed. I was like, this isn't how it's supposed to be. And was feeling awful. And then found out about the mind body link and learned that it wasn't the fact I wasn't getting pregnant.

Michelle (01:34)

Hehehe

Naomi (01:57)

that was causing the anxiety and the panic attacks. It was my thoughts about the fact I wasn't getting pregnant. And this blew my mind because I was so interested in meditation and the law of attraction and all these things already, but I'd never really put that together. I was like, all right, so that means I don't have to wait till I get pregnant to then be okay. And they're like, yep, that's it. And I was like, no, don't believe that. That, just no.

And then as I was practicing mindfulness, like really getting in touch with what was going on and the beliefs I had about pregnancy, the beliefs I had about my body, came to this place of acceptance and actually felt happier then than I ever had in the past, even though I was yet to be pregnant. And then actually our fourth round of fertility treatment was successful and I got pregnant, but then I miscarried.

Michelle (02:47)

Mm.

Naomi (02:54)

And instead of going back into depression and anxiety, I actually felt hopeful for the future and then conceived naturally three months later after the miscarriage and then have my daughter naturally two years later. And so throughout all of this decided that I had to share these techniques. So I actually left my career in design while I was going through IVF, retrained as a hypnotherapist and was actually working and supporting women in this field like two years into my journey and then it was like another two years before I got pregnant myself.

Michelle (03:29)

That's such an amazing story. And I love it for so many different reasons. And again, I apologize for the background noise if anybody's hearing that. but it's, it's incredible in so many ways. You know, the book I thought about when you were talking about that, have you ever read Man's Search for Meeting by Victor Frankel? And that blew my mind because I think that we are so conditioned and I think it is kind of like second nature to say, okay, well,

Naomi (03:45)

Mm. Yeah.

Michelle (03:55)

We can't possibly feel good if we're going through something that is difficult. That book specifically was like the most extreme of like what you could possibly go through. He was, you know, in a concentration camp. I mean, so you can't get worse than that. And the way he discussed about how we have one freedom that's left over, and that's the freedom of how we choose to view things.

And I think that is so profound because I really do feel like people think that they have no choice. So how did you finally, not just realize this, but also because you could realize it and you can hear it. And then sometimes you can fight that. So how did you like surrender to that and say, okay, you know, there's maybe, maybe it is how I'm looking at it. Cause that's a hard thing to go through.

Naomi (04:50)

Yeah, and it was very much that I did fight it because my friend actually bought me that book like while we were going through Yeah, and I was like Why aren't you giving me this like well, that's depressing literally just put it on my shelf and I was like I'm too depressed to read something because it was so triggering and was and I was like I you know, I can't read that and it wasn't until like years later that like picked off the shelf and I was like this is what

Michelle (04:55)

This book that I just mentioned? wow.

Naomi (05:18)

that's why you wanted me to read it. But at the time I just wasn't receptive to that. But also with when people first started saying to me, it's like, you can be happy even without a baby. And all I could hear in that was them telling me to stop wanting a baby. And I was like, I've wanted a baby since I was like two and a half and my mum had my younger brother. I can't switch off me wanting to be a mum.

who I'm supposed to be, that's what I'm supposed to be. I really believed that. I was like, I can't turn that off. And then it was as I got deeper into it, they're like saying, they're not saying turn that off. They're saying stop desperately wanting it so much and believing that that's the thing that's suddenly gonna make everything okay. Because it's also they now I'm supporting women, they get that positive pregnancy test and they don't go, amazing. Well, I feel amazing now.

Michelle (05:47)

Yeah.

Naomi (06:11)

just a whole new set of worries come in, a whole new set of anxiety, because then they're like, well, now I need to get to the eight week scan, now I need to get to the 12 week scan, so here's a 20 week scan. Whereas if you can learn to come to that place, and I think for me, it was a combination of mindfulness meditation, journaling, emotional freedom technique, really exploring what my thoughts were doing to me. Like my thoughts were literally making me physically sick.

Michelle (06:17)

Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Naomi (06:40)

having panic attacks, I wasn't sleeping, my digestion was all over the place, I had IBS and it was because of my my thinking I was making myself ill and it was only when I really sort of started to accept that that I could start to change whereas to start with was like no I just need to get pregnant as quickly as possible that will fix the anxiety I won't have panic attacks anymore once I'm pregnant, it'll be fine but obviously then it was months and months and months more of trying to conceive and it's living in that discomfort where you don't need to. So that's what I talk about a lot. It's like you don't have to live in this waiting zone of limbo. You can be happy now, you can be joyous now and still really, really, really want a baby and still be doing all the things you need to help you get pregnant, but not have that desperation and that like, if this doesn't happen this month, the world will end.

Michelle (07:37)

Yeah. I mean, what you're saying right now is so profound and true and important because I think that part of it is just how we've been conditioned just as a people. I think everywhere, modern day times, everything's a quick fix. And really the outside is revered as like really the material world is revered as like the end all be all where in ancient times they've always pointed us internally.

Go within, go within, go within. The answer is within. And now you tell somebody that they're like, what do you mean? Like within, I want to get, let's be realistic. Okay. You know, so what's, but what is reality ultimately, right? But a reflection of our internal world, but we're trying to fix the reflection. I mean, this is really how I see it. There is a reflection. We know this also with quantum physics. There is something to that, that

Naomi (08:15)

Thanks.

Michelle (08:35)

everything that happens outside of us is really reflection. And that's not, I just want to say this, not to blame anybody. This isn't saying that it's your fault or anything like that, or that you can control everything. Not at all, but that internal world does have an impact really on your life. And I think that it's often overlooked, it's often ignored, and we get so hyper -focused on really what I would call the reflection rather than going.

within and starting from within where that in tandem is really beneficial. So not that the outside means nothing and it's just an illusion, but it is really important to address the inside. And I think that you're saying that you can actually feel happy and at peace while you're going through something difficult would be very hard to believe for a lot of people. And this is what I love is that you

have been there. It's not like you're just saying, you know, hypothetically, it would be really like easy for you. No, you know, you actually went through this and discovered it on your own journey.

Naomi (09:44)

And I think that's so interesting is like, you know, now I have my two kids, they're both ginger, they're both born in June. It's like, it literally, the way it turned out, even though it took more years to happen, what I wanted has now, now exists. I wanted ginger babies, I wanted them to have June birthdays so we could have a giant bouncy castle, you know, garden birthday party. These things all happened, but now there are other things in my life.

that test me in the same way. And it's remembering, it's like going, you know, we'll feel happy and relaxed, like when we get to this point or, you know, summer holidays are a few weeks by a lot, we're just going to just get through these few weeks. And again, it's like we're rushing through life instead of being like, well, where's the joy in today? How do I want to be today? And instead of just being like, here's my to -do list, I'm going to plod through and cross through these things off. And it's like, well, no, every day.

Michelle (10:21)

Hehe.

Mm -hmm.

Naomi (10:42)

can be that gift and can be that, how do I wanna show up? And so it's like, you learn these techniques and it's not just to get you pregnant and then you're like, brilliant, pregnant now, can throw all this in the bin and move on. It's like, it's been constantly helpful throughout pregnancy, throughout labor, while the kids were tiny, like now they're starting to get bigger, you know, it's more dealing with the emotional storms that they're.

Michelle (10:56)

Mm -hmm.

Naomi (11:09)

going through rather than physical things like when they were younger. And so it's having these tools and techniques to fall back on each time and being like, they're my rock, like they're my foundation of how I do life. And so then if I don't practice them and kind of fall off the wagon, and then I'll really notice that. And it'll be like, you know, if you haven't brushed your teeth, you can really feel it and you're like, my teeth don't feel quite right. I feel the same now. It's like, if I don't meditate or don't journal,

Michelle (11:24)

in.

Yeah.

Naomi (11:38)

or I walked in the woods, I'm like, just my mind feels a bit icky, a bit like, I'm not, what's wrong? I haven't been for a walk. I haven't flossed my teeth. You know, it's that same, like, sort of, just something feels a bit off.

Michelle (11:43)

Young.

Yeah. And I think that, we almost don't realize like how off we feel until we start to do things that are good for us. And then we're like, this feels really good. And I can't really go back because then that doesn't feel right. And I think that that's what it is. I feel like meditation is like mental hygiene. It's like

Naomi (12:09)

Yeah. Yeah. And it's so often people are, they get really busy. And so you're like, I'll drop that. And I love that quote that it's like, if you're, you know, if you're, if you're busy, you should meditate for an hour a day. If you're really busy, you should meditate for two. And I just love that because it's so true when we get busy, we're like, we drop the things that are really good for us and can allow us to traverse the busyness and the things in life.

in a much more elegant way.

Michelle (12:38)

Yes, totally. It's almost like when you're taking, I always look at the branches and the flowers and everything really comes from the root. And if you're ignoring the root where everything comes from and really not feeding the plant itself and nourishing, how is it supposed to sprout? How is it supposed to flower? You can't expect it to do that unless you're taking care of it. And I think that we need to, we must.

care of ourselves, like in every way. If we're expecting things from our body, if we want longevity, I mean, that's really the core of vitality.

For sure. And then let's talk about, okay, so we hear, and this is a pretty common thing in the fertility world, you know, this idea of, obviously there's science -backed positive psychology, which we know about, and then there's something called toxic positivity, which isn't as helpful. And then what happens is, which I find to be a shame, is that sometimes people get so like turned off.

by that, that they're not even willing to look at the science which actually can in fact help.

Naomi (13:47)

Yeah, definitely. I think because there's this whole kind of culture of, if you just relax, it will happen. If you just stop thinking about it, if you just like the best yet, it's like, if you just stop trying, then you'll get pregnant. And I always used to say, it's like, this isn't going to be an immaculate conception. Like if we stopped trying, there will be no baby because we're not trying. And what people are trying to communicate is stop being so desperate. Stop like desperately

Michelle (14:07)

Right, right.

Naomi (14:16)

grasping for what you want, but if you tell someone who really wants something to stop wanting it, or you tell someone who's really stressed to stop being stressed, or you tell someone who's really worried to stop worrying, all you're doing is adding another worry, another stress, onto that list because now they're like, hang on, you're basically now saying that's my fault that I'm stressed, that I want it too much. And saying to a woman who's like, I was so

Michelle (14:32)

Mm -hmm.

Right.

Naomi (14:44)

sure I wanted to be a mum and I was so ready and I couldn't understand how my husband and I when we were newly married

We had like our home, like we were all ready to go and it wasn't happening for us. And I couldn't understand why like babies were being sent to other couples who, or you know, single men who weren't ready and didn't actually even want a baby. That was so confusing to me. And so then people saying to me, it's like, stop wanting it so much, like just stay positive and stick a smile on. And when I started researching into more, it's actually really, it can be really negative for you.

to try and remain positive all the time, because we're not designed to stay positive all the time. We're actually hardwired to notice the negative more than the positive to keep us safe. we're literally like primed like the whole time checking. And then if you take that, and it's also where like, we shouldn't really call any emotions negative. If we feel emotions that feel uncomfortable in the body that we label as negative.

we like shove them down and we're like, I don't want to feel like I don't want to feel. And so we try and numb out, scroll on our phones, like, you know, drinking, partaking in habits, like watching TV that we don't really want to watch, like all these things or comfort eating, things to kind of numb out these feelings and we shove them down. And all that happens is they build and they build and they build. At some point they'll come out. For me, it's panic attacks. For other people, it can be like a burst of rage or it can be just like bursting into tears in a meeting.

because there hasn't been an outlet to feel, experience, embrace those emotions that you're feeling. And once you start doing that, I can feel petrifying because so many of us, since we were like small children, you fall over, you cry, and you're told, you're okay. Don't cry. Stop crying. Here, lolly or here, have a toy. Here, be distracted. Swallow that pain down. No, we don't want to see it. That's not welcome here. And so when we start,

Michelle (16:30)

Right.

Naomi (16:41)

And a lot of the time the emotions we have, yeah, you're like, it's not okay for me. You know, I shouldn't cry, especially if it's like, if you're like really probably ugly cry like, you know, and you're like, like.

Michelle (16:42)

It's that judgment. You feel that judgment.

I between. I only have an ugly cry. I almost wish I was one of those people that just like has a straight face and a beautiful tear. Nope.

Naomi (16:56)

I guess you see my... little tear.

It's so raw and it's so animal. We're not used to allowing ourselves to really express ourselves in that way. And this is why I love emotional freedom technique, that you're literally using a technique that says, I embrace and accept all of this stuff. It's uncomfortable and I don't want it, but it's part of me, therefore I accept it. And as soon as we accept something, the resistance to it lessens. And then we're like, maybe that isn't as...

Michelle (17:24)

Yeah.

Naomi (17:31)

awful as I thought it was going to be and you can just sit with things a little bit. I've gone from a complete to a complete, but yes, so with toxic positivity, you're kind of basically going like, I'm fine. Everything is fine. Even, literally even women who've like had a miscarriage haven't told anyone, still gone into work, done these massive presentations and they're like.

Michelle (17:33)

Yeah.

Yeah, keep that smile on your face.

Naomi (17:54)

and then they wonder where they get home that night, go completely batshit crazy out their partner and have a full down meltdown and it's like it had to come out at some point and you've let it build and build and build instead of giving yourself the time and space to go I'm gonna sit and I'm gonna feel this now.

Michelle (18:14)

Yeah, it's so important. And I've really like, I love the book, The Untethered Soul. He talks a lot about leaning into those uncomfortable emotions, because our knee jerk reaction is to stop anything that doesn't feel comfortable or good. And that is where the blocks happen. Because what we're doing is we're not actually removing it. We're actually keeping it in place by like not allowing it to process and to, I feel like it's like

emotions. You have to almost digest it so that it can go through and be processed because it's important to do that. But I love that book because he describes it in such a clear and easy to understand way on how you lean into it. Basically, you just sit with

Naomi (18:48)

Yes.

Michelle (19:07)

So it's not this internal denial of emotions. what's the science -backed positive psychology that you were referring to?

Naomi (19:17)

Yeah, so a lot of my work, so my training is in cognitive hypnotherapy and everything, the training I'm in was like look at those studies, look at, you know, what's the evidence behind this? So we can obviously experience these techniques ourselves, see what many clients and seen the shift, seen the transformations that happen when they use these techniques and we do this work.

but I love going to the studies as well to really back up and go, because so many people are still like, that's really woo woo, that's really like out there. And I'm like, we've got studies. So some of them, to share through the negative ones to start with, are that women undergoing infertility treatment experience the same level of stress, anxiety and depression as women who have cancer, HIV or heart disease.

Michelle (19:51)

Mm -hmm.

love it.

Naomi (20:09)

So this is a real serious thing. This isn't like, I'm a little bit stressed because I can't have a baby. This is like massive, huge stress caused by the fertility treatment. So however stressed you were in life before this point, the treatment itself is adding to it. So in the post -traumatic stress disorder can develop in a third of women after miscarriage or eptopic pregnancy.

Michelle (20:14)

Mm -hmm.

Naomi (20:34)

and women who've experienced at least one unsuccessful IVF cycle and had depressive symptoms before continuing treatment experience the lowest success rate, which is probably one of the most depressing statistics I've ever had. You've had treatment to help you have a baby, it hasn't worked, and then if you start getting depressed about it, the next treatment has a lower chance of success. It's just such a depressing statistic.

Michelle (20:47)

Mm -hmm.

Naomi (21:03)

So of every statistic, I'm like, well, let's find the flip side of that. So that's a percentage of people. This study is saying this. Of every study, I like to find the flip side that backs up what that's saying, but with the positive or the opposite information. So that's where we come to things like using mindfulness is effective in reducing anxiety in women going through infertility by 76%.

Michelle (21:06)

Mm -hmm.

Naomi (21:32)

and reducing depression by 46%. Using hypnosis during embryo transfer can significantly improve IVF success rates and implantation rates. Depression, anxiety and stress among couples using emotional freedom technique was significantly less than those not using it. And the studies that show by practicing mind body techniques, you can actually double your chances of pregnancy success.

And they've shown that women going through the mind body studies at the IVF Boston Clinic, we're just having a better success rate within the six months that followed of them practicing these techniques. So this is kind of a slow burn. These aren't like, meditate for a day. You're going to get pregnant. This is more like, this is a lifestyle choice that I'm then implementing. I'm making this part of my, my life for the next few months. And then you're going to be improving your

Michelle (22:17)

Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Naomi (22:29)

chances and I've done a little, let me show you that. So these are the things that mind body techniques decrease are anxiety, depression, stress, anger, worry, jealousy and fear. And it improves quality of life, your relationship with others and yourself, resilience, hope and pregnancy success rates. So it's very much like the pregnancy success rates always say is like the cherry on the top. All the other things are like, that's what we want to be focused on. We're getting you happy.

managing stress, getting you to feel really good. And then a pregnancy is like, yay, that's the extra bit, but we're doing this for you and your wellbeing.

It's like getting you feeling good, improving your quality of life during this time allows you to then be making decisions from a place of confidence, calm confidence, rather than a place of fear. Like I felt like I kept going into treatment because I was being told that was the only option for me, that that was the best option for me. And for the first...

three rounds of treatment I did, I was so stressed, I hated it. And it was just so, so hard. And then I started practicing these techniques. So the fourth round of treatment I did was a breeze and so, so different from the three before. Then I got pregnant naturally anyway. So it's like, but it's having these techniques that made what I was going through, it just felt completely different on that fourth round.

Michelle (23:42)

Mm -hmm.

Yes. And also, I don't know if you've heard of the study about laughter therapy after transfers improves the chances of pregnancy mean, that's pretty wild, like that endorphins and laughter and being in this kind of state that's elevated could really impact that ability for it to stick. And then I suggest for people to do it really throughout the IVF, like just...

Watch comedies. Don't watch anything too heavy. Lift your emotions I'm like a huge fan of Dr. Joe Dispenza's work and I've been going to

and he talks a lot about the studies and really the two main things that they deduce from everything, from the techniques that he does, the two big things are your thoughts and your emotions.

So it's not just your thoughts. This is kind of like the emotions are sort of like that magic ingredients that activates the thoughts. That's why some people have a hard time with just doing affirmations because when you're just thinking or saying the same thing over without any emotion tied, then it's not as effective. So having a heightened state of emotion is what really impacts a lot of what happens in our bodies and how our bodies respond.

people really overcoming major, major diseases that they are told by the experts cannot be overcome because that is working through that material world versus the quantum, which is really where our minds, the worlds of our minds, that is the thing that we can access that we can't access through the material world. Yes, we could try to do things. We can...

take things out and do the surgery and do all the physical things that we need that take a little longer and are more dense. It's a more dense approach, not to say that it shouldn't exist. But then there's the other non -dense approach, which is the mind and coming to that place where you're able to shift things in a different level. Just like you said with meditation, you want more time, meditate longer. That's because you're going to a place where you're able to, I believe,

make magic and so elevating that emotion and now we know really with studies like the heart math, I'm sure you've looked into that, right? Heart math and how our hearts and brains have a coherence. Well, Chinese medicine has been saying that for thousands of years and then we know that the heart impacts the uterus. So having that heart and now we're seeing it in studies. I mean, all the things that you're listing are pretty much

pointing in that direction, how we feel in our life, how we feel in our world. And I think the biggest thing that you said that was just so spot on is that you can actually feel good while going through these things. Like that is the biggest like, my God, because I think that a lot of people don't really realize it. This is why I want to repeat that again, because you can feel good. You could thrive.

Naomi (27:02)

Yeah.

Michelle (27:05)

while you're going through this journey.

Naomi (27:08)

I remember that like once I'm actually crying like tears of joy and still trying to conceive I kind of remember what happened it was something like really small thing like I think I was just sat in the park and the sun was saying and it was so beautiful and I just sat and I just had a little cry but of joy and I don't think I'd ever cried from from joy before and it kind of was like wow that this feels

so powerful, I'm so overcome with positive emotion right now that I'm having this massive physical reaction to it. And I was just like, that's pretty special. That's pretty special that I'm now so open and I've managed to clear all of, because before I used to have this ongoing repetitive thought of like, what if you never get pregnant? What if the endometriosis just gets worse and then...

you have to have a hysterectomy and then that's it. Like, you know, it's like the thoughts were just this, they're like churning, churning. I'd like to wake up in the morning and my thoughts would just, would just be like attacking me. And it was then when I learned it's like my thoughts aren't deliberately doing this to make me feel really ill. They're doing it because they're trying to protect me what my, my inner self is. So do quite a lot of parts work with hypnotherapy. So the part of me that was petrified that I never get to be a mom. So it was telling me all these thoughts and telling me like,

Michelle (28:15)

Mm -hmm.

Naomi (28:33)

Get on it, do more treatment, like do more acupuncture, do more herbs, do all the things, do it all today. You need to think. And then the part of me that was like, it's gonna be okay, like I can walk this path, I can do what I need to do to support myself. It's gonna be okay. And when I could get myself into this place, I could see things like the sunset and I could be touched by that instead of being so blocked off by the light, the fear and the worry and the just.

Michelle (28:57)

Mm -hmm.

Naomi (29:03)

what if never and everyone else has that and I'm getting left behind and how does that, how do I traverse that? And it's like just bringing yourself totally back into the present moment and being like, and sometimes that's so hard. Like meditation for me was almost impossible to start because I just sit there and my mind would be like, yay, you're really listening now. Let's give you everything. And like only just so much.

Michelle (29:08)

Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

All the fears.

Naomi (29:29)

yeah, all that stuff. So emotional freedom technique for me was amazing because I remember saying that intention. I think we were about a year into trying to conceive and I set the intention that what I wanted was a way to turn off my mind. I was like, I'm going to be able to turn off my mind. I just want to press a mute button and just have my thoughts be quiet. And meditation didn't work for me like that. Like so many people are like, we just learned to meditate. That just didn't happen. It just, my thoughts got louder. Whereas with EFT,

because I had a process and a way to work through the thoughts. I remember the first time I had a kind of blank mind of just quietness and I was like...

Michelle (30:02)

Hmm.

Ha ha.

Naomi (30:09)

too far away from what I was capable of at the time.

Michelle (30:13)

So that's interesting. That's actually really good information because I know a lot of people have a hard time with meditation. Although I do think you could get there through meditation, it is a little bit more torture. Like if you don't do other things. So I think that that's a really good thing for people to hear is maybe to look into emotional freedom technique as a sort of in -between to get you from point A to point Z. So you're able to really get in there and feel more peace while you're meditating.

Naomi (30:27)

Yeah.

Yeah, to support the work you're doing alongside. Yeah.

Michelle (30:44)

quick question just for don't really know as much about hypnotherapy, like why is it so powerful?

what are the things, because I know because I'm trained, but like the subconscious mind, talk about like the beliefs that are in there that are so like lodged into the makeup of our being that they almost take over our free will and talk about why it's so important to have those types of therapies to shift those really ingrained beliefs.

Naomi (31:20)

Yeah, so I think for me, like to set it with a story. So for me, because I've been diagnosed with endometriosis and that was due to incredibly painful periods, the beliefs I had that I just wasn't aware of were my body is broken. You know, I have endometriosis, therefore, like I had this, even though logically and on the surface I could say, I'm not gonna need treatment. You know, we're just gonna have our babies naturally.

I think I was really holding that belief of like, you know, a doctor, person in authority had told, so, you know, like a man in his like fifties had told 19 year old me, you're probably gonna need IVF to have babies. Like, you know, buckle up, that's probably what's gonna happen. And I'd like taken that on as a belief. And so for me, it was working through, and I didn't trust my body because of the endometriosis and because of the pain I'd experienced, I could only link like,

pregnancy and birth with a lot of pain because people had said to me, giving birth is like, you know, period pain, but like a thousand times worse. Whereas because I had period pain that had meant, you know, I'd nearly passed out from the pain that I'd nearly rang, you know, an ambulance to come and collect me because I collapsed on a walk. So in my head, I was like, that's period pain. Birth is worse than that? God. Whereas then now I've given birth twice. One birth was pain free. One birth was

Michelle (32:22)

Mm -hmm.

Naomi (32:44)

painful but only for 15 minutes because she came in such a rush and birthed herself, I was in labor for 40 minutes. I now know the people that said, you know, labor was like pain, but worse. One probably hadn't practiced hypnobirthing and weren't like prepared for what their body was going to do, but also probably had like little tiny cramps that were like, little thing, not like massive endometriosis cramps. So for me, it was unpicking all these beliefs of what, what

Michelle (32:59)

Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Naomi (33:12)

my body meant like what my fertility meant and they can be like yeah like you said like deep inside that we're not even aware of but they impact the way we think the decisions we make the behaviors we have and so for me like whenever it was my period i was so used to just taking painkillers pushing on through my cycle ended up flying from london to glasgow and back for a one -hour meeting on the first day of my cycle and i haven't made traces and we were trying to

trying for a baby. So I was obviously massively disappointed that I wasn't pregnant, had horrific cramps, took a load of painkillers, got on this plane and I got home at, you know, like nine o 'clock at night that evening. And I was just like, what am I doing? Like I'm just pushing, pushing, pushing myself for my job. Like why on earth didn't I just say I can't fly up that week?

Obviously, you know, I didn't feel in a position at the time to go, I'm probably going to be getting my period then. But it's like, I should have, you know, it's like now, if I was in that position, I would be like, I have endometriosis, that's not gonna, that's not gonna work for me. That's not, I can't, I can't basically. Physically, I'm not gonna be able to do that. It's gonna need to be shifted. Although saying that, I wouldn't say that now because now, now I don't have really painful periods because I've dealt with all the things with my period. So that's something to say as well. It's like,

Michelle (34:06)

Yeah.

Naomi (34:35)

I just accepted that I would always have incredibly painful periods. And then when I worked with an acupuncturist, when I worked through the beliefs I had about my body and about pain and about rest, I was then having pain -freeperiods. The point I would like get my period and I'd literally be like, whoa, what's that? because I had no cramps, I'd had no buildups. I literally be like shocked when I saw red, because I'd just be like, I wasn't,

Michelle (34:39)

Hmm.

Mm -hmm.

great.

Naomi (35:02)

Yeah, it was such a different experience. So we need to, if you can really get to inside, and this is the joy of hypnotherapy, that we can access the subconscious mind in a really safe way and be like, what's in here? What are the things that are not serving you? What are the beliefs that we can choose to let go of and choose to install new beliefs? So in the latest trauma training I've done over the last couple of years,

I'm actually taking the beliefs you have, removing them and installing new beliefs. And that like absolutely fascinates me. And in the space of two weeks, clients being like, this is how I feel. This is what I believe. This is what I'd like to believe, but that's complete BS. Not a chance. I don't believe it. And then we do the work and by the end of the two weeks, and then they're kind of like, yep, I am like, yep, that's my new belief. That's new way of.

thinking, feeling, experiencing the world literally in new thought pans that then changes their behaviors, changes the way they make decisions about, you know, not just their fertility, but their relationships, their work, their health, all these areas. And it seems so, it seems so simple to me because I'm in this work all the time, but obviously people are really like, my God, like this is huge. Like I don't, I used to believe this and I believe this. my God. And I'm like.

Of course. And it's like, and they're like, it's massive. Like one client said it was Superman, like supercharged, these thoughts and like just like completely defeating Luke.

Michelle (36:31)

amazing.

Naomi (36:41)

Lex Luthor when she never thought that would be possible whatsoever and just changing that just being like God

Michelle (36:46)

Yeah, I love that. Because, you know, thoughts give power and then they can also take away power depending on the thought. And also when you talked about like an older man, an authority figure, you know, how you said your experience was with your doctor. Keep in mind when you're trained in hypnotherapy, they talk about that.

They talk about one of the things that can hypnotize people. is because when you see somebody as this authority figure and you view them in this high regard, which we do a lot of times with

behind their names or after their names, then we could give them our power and allow whatever they're saying to have absolute authority over us. And that could be in a sense,

hypno session right there,

Naomi (37:39)

Yeah, and yeah, it's like you need to be, I think, love the work we do. We're not hypnotizing people, we're de -hypnotizing them. And we're bringing you back out of the trance state that you've been living in, like especially around birth. And we still set up society, society's just set up to basically tell us birth is to be feared, birth is painful, birth is all these things. That's not true. And so we can...

Michelle (37:46)

Yeah, my God, I love that. Yes.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Naomi (38:06)

de -hypnotize ourselves

Michelle (38:08)

I love how you put that because it is, it's kind of like waking up, becoming more conscious in our life, becoming more conscious of our power and what we really can do for ourselves. And I think that that's, that's the biggest thing. I really feel very passionate about it because I myself have had times where

I felt completely powerless in my life and I believed a lot of things about myself and my body. And so I think that when you come out of that, you're like, everybody needs to know this. Like everybody needs to know, you know? And I think we have that in common.

Naomi (38:43)

I think that's what's so exciting because I work with so many women that are like, my doctor's told me this, as if it's a fact. And I'm like, have you got a second opinion? And they're just like, well, no, but they work on Harley Street and they're top of their game. And I was like, you might want to get a second opinion on that. Then they go and get a second opinion. And they're like, no, they've told me, actually, that my results don't mean that at all. And I'm like, hmm, hmm.

Michelle (38:54)

Exactly. third opinion.

There you go. Yep.

Naomi (39:11)

Because when you work with so many women in this field and people have very similar stories and like medical backgrounds, for example, and so you can be like, well, this person was told this and now this person is being told this, like, let's just not take that as, you know, that is what is. Especially when it comes to age or medical conditions like endometriosis, PCOS.

Michelle (39:19)

Yes.

you

Naomi (39:37)

there was some doctors that very fixed in this then means this. And it's like from, you know, my case on paper, I wasn't supposed to get pregnant naturally twice, but I did. They can't explain it. There wasn't anything medically different. But it's like, it happened when it happened and then it happened again. So it's like, why was that?

Michelle (39:42)

Bye.

Right? Yeah. Yeah. Right. Exactly.

But so first of all, I can keep talking to you for hours. I think that we have a lot in common. We are very into, the power of our minds and empowerment and really kind of like setting people up for empowerment. So for people listening to this, I'm sure a lot of people are really fascinated by everything that you're sharing. How can people find

Naomi (40:24)

Yeah, so the best place to find me is on Instagram. That's where I hang out, have a lot of fun on Instagram. So just embrace fertility. My website is embracefatility .co .uk because I'm based in England and my podcast is basically embrace fertility everywhere. I run a 12 week course, the embrace fertility method, sharing the techniques and some of the techniques I've been talking about today. So emotional freedom technique.

mindfulness, CBT, hypnotherapy. And then I also work with clients one to one for a minimum of 12 weeks support. So everyone that works for me does the Embrace Fertility Method and then can add those sessions on. And yeah, just come say hi on Instagram.

Michelle (41:10)

Awesome. Naomi, I love talking to you and I'm so happy we connected and thank you so much for coming on today.

Naomi (41:20)

Thank you for having me, it's been fun.

EP 299 Which method should you choose to track your fertile window?

In today's episode, I'll be discussing different methods to track your fertile window, highlighting the pros and cons of each. 

We'll explore:

• Smartphone apps for tracking cycles

• Ovulation predictor kits (OPKs)

• The fertility awareness method

• Basal body temperature tracking

• Cervical mucus observation

• Wearable fertility trackers

• Hormonal urine tests

By the end of this episode, you'll have a clearer understanding of how to accurately determine your fertile window and optimize your chances of conception. 

If you’d like discount codes to Mira and other helpful fertility resources, you can visit: https://www.thewholesomelotusfertility.com/fertilityresources

Check out Michelle’s latest book here: https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

Follow Michelle on Instagram @thewholesomelotusfertility 

Facebook https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/ for more tips and updates.

For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Transcript:

fertility window

[00:00:00] On today's episode, I'm going to talk about different methods that you can use to track your fertile window, which ones are good and the pros and cons of all of them, because I know that this is actually a very common question. And a lot of times I actually see patients, when I first see them, we find out that they weren't really having sex at the right time.

So they were waiting too late or they weren't tracking as well, or they thought that it was exactly a certain time and they didn't have it any other time. So I do find that a lot of people get confused exactly as to how to track their fertile window, when they should have sex. And I think that one of the biggest reasons why people get confused is because of the movies, those comedies and shows that we've seen.

They make it seem like it's like within an hour, that's the time to have sex and you got to go and let's go. So, I am going to talk about different ways that you can track your [00:01:00] cycle and the pros and cons for each. So the first thing that I'm going to go over is Over is smartphone apps.

So just apps basically tracking your cycle and you can find lots of those people use like low or flow. You can find tons. The list goes on and yes, even though by themselves. They are not the most effective thing. You can use them as a tool to help you track your cycle. And what I love about them is that it is like a really nice app and it makes it easy to put information down and store information, but like anything, it really depends on the type of information you put in, how detailed it is, and also not relying on its algorithm, because if you are only putting your, Time of your period and basically tracking the first day of each period it's going to automatically generate an algorithm Where [00:02:00] it guesses what your fertile window is now It's pretty obvious why that would be a problem because some people might ovulate early and other people might ovulate late So, how does this algorithm possibly know what's going on with your cycle?

So that is basically where if you used a loan, it definitely does not give you enough information and enough data. And so I have seen many people, mistake their fertile window by just relying on the apps.

So I do want to mention that the apps are great, but it just all depends on the kind of information you put in there. and how you use it. So it could be a great tool, just really depending on how it's used and also not being used solely as the only way you can find your fertile window.

So the second way that people use, and I say people, because it's not necessarily what I recommend, although again, if it's used in [00:03:00] conjunction with other things, it can be a good tool. And that is ovulation predictor kits. So basically you can find them

At drugstores and grocery stores, you can find them really everywhere and you'll find things like clear blue digital ovulation tests, first response ovulation tests, many different ovulation tests out there. And what they do is they will only measure one hormone and that is luteinizing hormone. What luteinizing hormone is, is it's a hormone that gets released from your pituitary gland in your brain.

And what that does is it basically your brain has its own pulse and cycles, and when it releases that, LH, which is luteinizing hormone. It signals the ovaries to ovulate. The problem is, is that these ovulation predicting kits are only showing the prediction based on the [00:04:00] brain.

And the hormone that's released by the pituitary in the brain, but that doesn't tell you whether the ovaries responded or not. So it really doesn't confirm ovulation, but it does give you an idea of when your brain is trying to signal for the body to ovulate.

where that could be an incredible tool is if you already have confirmed other ways that you are in fact ovulating every single month. So most likely if you already confirmed that you're ovulating, it's a great extra tool to get an idea of when you're moving towards that direction, get an idea within that month that your body is trying again.

So since you already confirmed it and you see that you have a rhythm and a pretty normal cycle. So then you can use it as a tool, but again, this is not something that I would recommend using alone because it just doesn't give you the kind of information that you want to know and it doesn't really confirm ovulation and it doesn't confirm it with other[00:05:00] hormones.

So the third method, which is, it's really a couple of methods within one method, which goes under the fertility awareness method, although that is one style and it's a specific method of looking at the body. But in general, 

It pretty much teaches ways to understand and read your body and your reproductive health and your cycle and to understand what's happening based on a couple of different measurements. , so the measurements used are, a lot of them are based on different tracking apps. So it's similar to what we talked about before, but Kendara Ovia fertility and Daisy, and then a lot of these have thermometers that actually come with them and they sync up with a phone. So it makes it a little easier.

It's just one less step to basically taking your temperature in the morning. And having to put it into the phone. So this does it automatically for you. , so according to this [00:06:00] method, there are many different ways that you could look at your body. recognize if you're within the fertile window, the first method of really understanding your full cycle. And I recommend doing this at least a couple of times or a couple of months, meaning so a couple of cycles is tracking your basal body temperature.

And you can do that with a basal body thermometer. You don't necessarily have to have one that's Bluetooth and that connects to the app. Not necessarily. You could use the app just to input information and data. And that is where the app can be very helpful because you're putting the information in there.

And then you start to understand more or less what that big picture of your menstrual cycle looks like within a month. 

 There are definitely

conditions that make the measurement more accurate. And one of them is sleeping for at least three hours before you check your temperature. And you cannot check your temperature in the morning after you [00:07:00] get out of the bed. So you can't get out of bed before you check your temperature.

So the first thing you do in the morning, you wake up, and hopefully you were sleeping at least three hours before you checked, and you didn't get up to go to the bathroom within that three hour time. and hopefully you also wake up around the same exact time. However, I suggest not to let that discourage you.

If you don't wake up exactly the same time, don't let that discourage you because you're still going to get a lot of good data. It may not be as accurate. And so with this, I want to say that there are certain things that are ideal, but they're not absolutely necessary.

It's not absolutely something that you need to do. So one of the things that would be ideal is that you'd wake up around the same time every morning. Another thing that would be ideal is that you were sleeping for three hours. Now if you happen to wake up and go to the pee and then came back, I don't know, an hour, hour and a half before, [00:08:00] don't let that stop you.

because it's still going to give you some data. So it's really progress over perfection. And you know, you don't want to like be paralyzed by the perfection, have everything perfectly or nothing, because that's going to stop you from really tracking. 

So ideally, Besides the three hours before you wake up, besides having it exactly the same time every day, you also want to, and I say this ideally because it's not an absolute must, but you also want to keep the thermometer. It's a digital thermometer in your mouth for five to 10 minutes before you actually turn it on, because that is going to give you again, a really, really good accurate read.

So those are the big guidelines and that's going to help you to really get a good picture on what's happening in your body. And typically you're going to want the first part of the cycle, which is the follicular phase. And that is day one of your menstrual cycle. That's your first [00:09:00] day of your full bleed until the day of ovulation.

That is considered your follicular phase when the follicle grows and is preparing itself to release the egg and ovulate. The second part of your menstrual cycle is the time of ovulation until the first day of your next cycle, or it just keeps going if there's pregnancy.

And that is called your luteal phase. So the luteal phase should be about 98 degrees. So you'll find that it's going to go from the follicular phase being like 97. And it's going to be like 97. 1, 97. 3, 97. 2, 97. 5. You know, it might go up and down a bunch of times, but it's going to stay generally speaking around 97.

The luteal phase after ovulation will increase and it increases. It's a little bit more of a yang time. Well, the first part, which is the follicular [00:10:00] phase is more yin and more cooling. The second part, which is the luteal phase is going to be around 98 degrees.

If you see that your period is late and you continue being 98 degrees and it doesn't go lower, there is a good chance that there's pregnancy. If that is unusual for you. And this is why I. I highly suggest looking into tracking for a couple of months because once you do that, even though it can be a little bit more work, it's going to give you so much information and you're going to be kind of like your own little experiment to, looking into your own rhythm and how your body is processing, whether it's moving and pulsing in a regular rhythm or it's irregular and something is a little off. So it's going to give you a lot of insight on what's going on. And it's also going to give you an idea of generally speaking, especially if you are regular, when you're ovulating.

So you might ovulate a little early or a little late, [00:11:00] but you'll really get familiar on your exact cycle. If you do this for a couple of months,

another thing that can help you know if you're within that fertile window is cervical mucus. So the fertility awareness method, they teach a lot about for a cervical mucus and it'll shift and change really. And there's peak cervical mucus that happens around your ovulation 

that is the egg white consistency that everybody talks about. So before that you'll still have mucus, but it's not going to look quite as slippery. So it starts out a little bit more like lotiony and then it starts to get more and more moist around that time. I would definitely highly suggest drinking water because it is pretty much a lot of it is made up of water.

And it need, you need a lot of water and hydration in order for your body to produce more cervical mucus. So that is like kind of one little trick that people don't realize is that it's important to be hydrated [00:12:00] during your ovulation. It is a very yin time. This is when you have all the cervical mucus and lots of fluids.

So yin is all about moisture and it's all about fluid. So you want to help your body out. So not just drinking to hydrate, but you can also eat foods that have water. So lots of vegetables that retain water because your body's actually able to really hydrate when you have food that has water. So if you don't have food that has water and it's too dry, your body will need more water.

It's much easier if you have that hydration also from food.

Other fertility signs that they look at or, fertile window signs are position of your cervix and feeling whether it is soft or firm. So you can actually put your fingers and feel your cervix. But I remember when I first heard it, I was like, what? So I tried it and it was really fascinating because you do feel around the time [00:13:00] of ovulation or when you're fertile, it feels soft.

It feels like lips. And when you're not in your fertile window, it feels like the tip of your nose. So you feel almost, more like a, like a hard plastic.

Now that is totally optional. Some people prefer not to do this and some people want to really look into everything. I think it's a good thing to try just so that you could really understand your body and then you could really feel the difference because it's pretty fascinating 

the contrast between the times that you are fertile and when your body's not in that fertile cycle.

So the pros are, I personally believe that, this method can give you a lot of insight and it really does confirm your ovulation because you can see it in the temperature and the temperature needs to be consistently elevated and then you know that you're definitely in the luteal phase and that you have in fact, ovulated.

So it does give [00:14:00] you a little bit more detailed information. It is something that also can tell you whether your temperature is off. If you're too cool. Which is something that a lot of times if you're seeing an acupuncturist, we can help because we can increase yang energy in a person's body. Also, if you have a short luteal phase, which is pretty common, we can increase young herbs, you know, give herbals.

to increase that. So it really depends. Obviously, if you have a short luteal phase, it's not necessarily always yang deficiency. So it is something though that we can take a look at and really get an idea of what your body would need in order to regulate your menstrual cycle. So I find this method to be great, not just for seeing what's going on, but also in working with other people, especially people who are familiar with it, like many acupuncturists or maybe even functional medicine doctors or naturopathic doctors.

And the [00:15:00] cons would be that it is a strict method and it takes a little bit more time and you have to be really consistent. , it's not as bad as it originally feels like in the beginning because I consider it like brushing your teeth. You brush your teeth, you don't think twice and it's just a habit.

So it could be something that you'll eventually just do effortlessly. In the beginning it might take a little more time and a little bit more intention in your day. but over time it gets a lot easier. So some people look at this and they think it is way too stressful and it's not worth it. It really depends on you.

I always suggest, try it out one month, two months. If it's so stressful that you're just like, I can't, then it's not worth it. And other ways to do this is a wearable fertility trackers. So they have these bracelets or armbands. Many different companies do this and what they do is they basically monitor [00:16:00] your skin temperature and some of them even monitor your heart rate and there are many benefits to it because they require very little effort on your part.

All they do is they basically track you and in the morning they connect with the app. and they record all of that. So there's not a lot to do with that. The only thing is, is that they do tend to get expensive and so that's something to consider. And some people complain that they feel uncomfortable.

I've had some patients that use the aura ring and they love it and that could also be used for, monitoring your fertile window. So that's an option.

So there's also something called obvious sense, which personally, not the biggest fan of, you have to keep it in your vagina all night and it might be really uncomfortable. , plus I just, I don't know, I don't know if it has radiation. You don't want to put that up there. I know with [00:17:00] other trackers, 

it measures, and then it will only emit radiation when it's connecting with the phone, but I just, I don't know. This one specific way or method just doesn't seem like it would be comfortable for me, so that's my opinion about it.

And it's also something that is expensive as well. And There are hormonal urine tests that you can take Monthly, so one example, which I love and I will be putting this in the episode notes 

I have a link to a discount is with Mira and Mira is a device that basically measures urinary progesterone The LH, which is what you'll find with OPK kits, but it also measures urinary progesterone, which you'll measure in your luteal phase

as well as estrogen metabolites. And it has a 99 percent accuracy.

And so you pee on a stick and it measures it throughout the cycle and it connects with the [00:18:00] app and then it gives you a really pretty chart and you can share that with the people that you're working with, any practitioners. I have a lot of people, a lot of my patients showing it to me or people that I work with online.

So I love the fact that it measures multiple hormone levels and gives you a really nice picture of what's happening. It also can predict fertile days based on your normal, , rhythm, and then it also can

confirm ovulation. So you want to make sure that you actually did in fact ovulate and by measuring urinary progesterone, you are getting that confirmation. So I guess the con would be that it is expensive and you will need to buy multiple refills. So it can be expensive and continuously expensive.

So that's one of the drawbacks. I personally love it because it gives you a really nice picture and it is something that you can really measure hormonally, what's going on and get a map [00:19:00] throughout your cycle. And if you do that for at least a couple of cycles, that's another thing that can really give you a lot of information.

Other hormonal tests are.

Inito and then you can also look into something called Proov or Oova and they do pretty much the same so you can look at all of those and just really get an idea of the pros and cons. ,

so those are the different methods that you can do. The ones that I recommend personally, if you really want to get an idea of what's going on with your body and really optimize the fertile window is to really do, I think, a little bit of all of them. But the ones that I would say do not miss 

is the method where you do your BBT charting and you really start to look at your cervical mucus and really understand your body. I definitely highly recommend doing that for at least a month or two. And if you don't like doing that, Then I definitely suggest either the wearable fertility [00:20:00] trackers or the urine hormone tests.

But the ones that are more than just the LH, the ones that are like Mira, Inito, Proov or Oova where you can track progesterone metabolites and other hormones to see what's happening and get a clearer picture of your overall cycle.

And then, of course, having somewhere where you can record your information and input your data, but not relying on the algorithm. And also, the LH is great, but it's much better if it's in combination with other hormones as well.

So if there are any other questions that pop up in your mind as you're listening to this, I am so open to coming up with lots of different ideas for podcasts. If there are questions that I haven't really addressed that you're wondering, you can always reach out to me on my Instagram. And my handle is at thewholesomelotusfertility.

You can DM me. for listening. [00:21:00] And I would love to hear from you. If you have any questions, I can always consider that for a future episode.

So thank you so much for tuning in today and I hope you have a beautiful day.

EP 298 Is This Normal? Changes in Relationships on the Fertility Journey

In this episode, I will discuss the question, "Is it normal for relationships to change on the fertility journey?" Navigating the fertility journey often brings significant changes to relationships, especially between partners. The emotional and physical strain of frequent doctor visits, unexpected news, and the frustration of unanswered questions can be overwhelming. Men and women often process grief and stress differently, which can lead to misunderstandings and feelings of isolation. Many couples choose to keep their struggles private, adding to the challenge. This journey not only affects the primary relationship but also extends to interactions with family and friends. Understanding and patience become crucial as partners try to support each other through a deeply personal and often isolating experience.

Takeaways:

• Fertility challenges can significantly disrupt life and cause emotional strain.

• Partners may process grief and stress differently, leading to misunderstandings.

• Many couples choose to keep their struggles private, adding to isolation.

• Sharing experiences with a supportive community can be healing.

• Fertility challenges can put pressure on intimacy, turning it into a task.

• Effective communication helps in understanding each other’s perspectives.

• Family and friends may unintentionally add stress with insensitive questions.

• Setting boundaries with well-meaning but uninformed loved ones is important.

• Couples therapy can be beneficial even if the relationship isn’t in crisis.

• Recognizing that relationship changes during fertility challenges are normal.

• It is okay to decline emotionally taxing events like baby showers.

Check out Michelle’s latest book here: https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

Follow Michelle on Instagram @thewholesomelotusfertility 

Facebook https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/ for more tips and updates.

For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Transcript:

[00:00:00] On today's episode of, is this normal? We are going to be talking about. relationship changes when you're on the fertility journey. And this is actually something very common that I see with lots of people that I work with, and it can be really confusing. And so I wanted to address topics that people come to me about and really reiterate the fact that yes, this is normal.

This is actually very common for relationships to shift when people are on On the fertility journey, and then, of course, I'm going to give some tips and some things that you can do in order to make that a little bit easier.

So, although I don't love this word, the I word, the infertility diagnosis has been compared to a cancer diagnosis, when couples are going through this really difficult journey of fertility challenges, it can really throw a person's life upside[00:01:00] down. And I'm sure if you're listening to this podcast, most likely you are on the fertility journey yourself and completely understand what that is like from the inside out.

 It can be disruptive in the sense that you have to stop what you're doing and go to a bunch of doctor's visits and then get news that you weren't really expecting to hear, and then sometimes get the news that there is no known understanding for why things are happening, which could be very frustrating, confusing.

And so basically it can really throw the reality of your life 

and what you expected for your future with your partner completely upside down.

Not to mention the challenges for same sex couples, I mean there's so many different factors or uncovering that you have possibly other underlying health concerns or conditions that you weren't aware of before. Or 

so many couples go through this [00:02:00] by themselves. Many people do not feel comfortable sharing their experience and sharing the fact that they're trying because quite frankly it's nobody's business and it is something that you're going through on your own. So it's very personal. It's a personal thing and Many times it includes losses, pregnancy losses that people are not aware of.

So then you have these different rings of relationships. So of course the most important relationship really ultimately is between you and your partner. And then you have other people in your life that are outside of that circle. Meaning the next circle, the next ring would be your family that you grew up Extended family and then outside of that is friends or people that you're close with So you have lots of different people in your life That you are related to and connect with and not [00:03:00] everybody is going to know what you are going through So it could be very challenging to go through something very difficult privately.

The first relationship I'm going to talk about is really the relationship between you and your partner. And this is definitely something that I hear often being addressed and talked about with my patients and my clients, because it is something that a lot of people don't realize. That everybody deals with grief and everybody deals with fertility challenges differently.

I even see many of my patients, every single one of them is dealing with them a little differently. Of course it is something that is causing anxiety and fear. This seems to be across the board. But everybody responds differently to what they're faced with. And then the same goes with couples. And the same goes with, especially, How women tend to face it versus men.

And [00:04:00] I know we like to generalize, but there is a difference in a lot of the couples that I speak to and how they perceive and approach the fertility journey. Sometimes women will be a lot more emotional and they'll feel things deeper and more primal. And then sometimes the men will work and not really deal with emotions even though they are having emotions.

And so it seems like to a lot of my women patients, That have talked to me and I'm kind of like the sounding board so I do know what's going on behind the scenes and They share with me that sometimes they don't feel like they're being supported enough or they will be doing everything by the book Doing all the supplements really changing everything going to the doctors doing all the tests And sometimes they won't feel the same from their partner.

They'll try to get them to stop smoking marijuana or drinking alcohol or taking their supplements. [00:05:00] So there are many of those things that do happen quite often. Now, of course, I'm not a psychotherapist, but the reason I want to talk about this is because I do see a lot of couples and I do see a lot of patterns that tend to play out.

So I did want to mention this in the podcast episode so that. when you are going through this, that you realize that you are not alone, that this is actually very common and very normal. And it is an extra weight of challenge that you are taking on in your life that you normally wouldn't have to, or normally wouldn't really account for in your life.

So this is something that kind of, It comes out of left field for many people, and it could be very confusing. It could be very frustrating. Another thing that can happen besides the communication and besides really feeling like you're on the same page is the intimacy because there does feel like an added pressure to the intimacy. And [00:06:00] You have to have sex at a certain time. And all of a sudden, rather than having something that used to connect you, now it's something that has to be done and it becomes a means to an end, rather than the journey itself.

I talk a lot about this. I talk about this also in my book, It really is important to sustain that connection with your partner. And by sustaining it, it means just really spending time. The more time you spend with the person that you're with, the more understanding you'll have. And what I mean by that is spending time doing things that you used to love doing and really nurturing the relationship in a way that for that moment, you're forgetting everything else.

But you're really putting your attention towards. nurturing the relationship itself. I can't stress how important that is. And sometimes that means temporarily letting go of any frustrations that you have [00:07:00] with your partner because sometimes we can get into a cycle of blame or difficulties or not feeling heard.

And I find that sometimes when we don't focus so much on fixing and instead focus on spending time together, that will create more sensitivity naturally and more compassion, empathy will grow because then nobody is on guard and aren't as defensive.

So while it is important to communicate and sometimes even therapy can help. It's important to also remember the things that you love about each other and spend some quality time nurturing the relationship. What I find in general and what I found in my own relationship is that even if I'm frustrated about something, sometimes if I tackle it head on, it makes the person defensive and then nobody gets anywhere.

And rather than doing that, spending a little more time hearing each other out, coming into it. With more [00:08:00]softness does tend to help

something that I've also found with my patients and the people that I work with is that once they realize that. Men and women tend to process grief differently and also just different people in general, whether it doesn't matter if you're a male or female, tend to process things differently. Then they realize, coming from a perspective that they're having, that it doesn't have to necessarily be the same perspective.

And that doesn't mean. That they're not processing the same amount of pain. It's just processed in a different way. And I think once people realize that, and I've had other therapists come on the podcast in the past and I've had conversations with them, and that's like a big thing that they talk about is just the way that people process things is different.

When you realize that. That doesn't mean that they're feeling less than you, and that [00:09:00] doesn't mean that they're not feeling anything at all. It really makes a big difference and a shift in the way the couple communicates. So, it is important really, I mean, the big tip here is to spend some time together and create a dynamic where you are listening to each other and working together.

And sometimes that means 

for a moment, having less expectations and just spending more quality time and then creating that bond. Because when you create that bond, you're naturally going to communicate better. So holding hands, spending time together, getting gifts, Typically what happens is when people feel appreciated and loved on both sides, they're more apt to listen, they're more apt to hear, and it is important to communicate those feelings in a way that is So it is important to communicate for sure, and if it is something that you're going [00:10:00] through that's a little more heavy and like really, really difficult and you feel unheard, that is when I would say therapy would be a great option because although a lot of times couples think, Oh my God, if we're going through therapy, that means something is wrong.

That's not necessarily the case at all. Therapy could be an incredibly useful tool for the couples, especially when they're going through the fertility journey, and sometimes insurance might even cover it. A lot of times if you're doing IVF treatments, they have people that they can recommend to help ease the process because it's known that this could be a very traumatic process.

So I think one of the most important things is really realizing that this is not an easy thing to go through. And whenever you're going through something so huge in your life, it's going to impact relationships.

So, other relationships that I wanted to discuss that I hear often about are relationships with [00:11:00]family members, or mothers in law, or the mothers, or sisters and brothers, and oftentimes, these are the big things that I hear. is that

the couple simply does not want to talk about their personal life and they don't want to talk about their struggles trying to conceive. And they're often faced with family members constantly asking them when they're going to start a family. And this can be incredibly hurtful, frustrating, upsetting, and challenging really to face because you're sitting there with something in private and you can't address it and then you're being asked about it.

And then what's worse is sometimes they do actually talk about what they're going through. It's not a secret, but then they're being given very

unhelpful suggestions as if they don't already know that changing the diet is going to be great And then, [00:12:00] of course, just relax and it's going to be fine, if only it was that easy. So, there's a lot of, very frustrating comments that come, and it seems like when people don't really know what it's like, 

they'll never understand quite how painful it is to go through something like this.

And oftentimes, it is very well meaning, but sometimes it can come off as very insensitive. And of course, it's going to be insensitive because unless you're going through it, you're not going to fully understand it. So how can you really, truly be sensitive to the topic and understand it fully and know what to say that's going to make things better?

And sometimes, People don't even want to hear anything. All they want to do is be able to talk or be left alone. So that can really put a strain on the relationship itself. And I hear this a lot and it's like certain family members or certain close friends, you know, And they just don't want to [00:13:00] deal with it.

When you're going through this challenge, you just don't want to deal with that extra added pressure or extra added stress. So this is actually really common. And sometimes the only solution is creating boundaries or possibly seeing those family members a little less. Now, I know that sounds kind of harsh and I know it sounds almost overly simplistic.

However, depending on the relationship, if it is causing you major stress and you're coming home and you're ruminating about it and you're thinking about it and then you're wishing you would have said this or that, and you're just, it's constantly adding an extra added stress to the already stressful and draining process of fertility challenges, then at that point you have to really almost say no to them, say yes to yourself, and look at it as saying yes to yourself, because looking at it in that way, [00:14:00] of self care can shift a little bit of the perspective and make you realize that this is really important for you.

You need to protect your energy. Now, in some cases, some people are able to brush it off. It's not a big deal. I really not take it personally. Most cases, that is not the case because it is a very fragile and vulnerable time of people's lives and they just can't deal with this. It's too much. So that is when I say healthy boundaries are really, really important.

And yes, you absolutely can and should create boundaries when it comes to your relationship, how people are speaking to both of you,

any kind of insensitivity. You have every right to create those boundaries. You not just have a right, but it is really a priority because this is a very difficult time, 

and I also want to say that you shouldn't feel pressured to let people know what's going on in your [00:15:00] personal life if you're not ready to do so. You shouldn't feel pressured to do this at work. You shouldn't feel pressured at all because it's really your personal process and you should have every right to decide when and if you are going to tell people about your personal journey.

I highly suggest to while you're going through this to find a community of people that understand where you're coming from. There's so much healing and finding other people that are going through the journey with you. There's something really miraculous that happens and I've seen it in my own work and I've actually had two women who are going through a transfer at the same exact time with the same doctor.

I don't know if I mentioned this on the podcast before, but. I happen to come in late on a Thursday to see both of them because they were having their procedure on Friday morning. So I came in late Thursday so that I'll [00:16:00] be able to do like the pre protocol for the transfer just so happened to be that these two women. We're going through very, very similar situations. Both of them were doing IVF because their husbands had testicular cancer and had to freeze their sperm before going through treatment. I knew at that moment that these two women had to meet and I felt like, Oh my God, this is really meant to be.

And so it was amazing. So I introduced them that day and I remember going out and Outside and I see them Sitting outside talking in the corner and discussing everything and I of course couldn't tell them What their personal story was but I did say you have a lot in common.

You should talk and they became friends and Amazingly both got pregnant. So they're pregnant right now as we speak And I'll tell you, it was really comforting for each of them [00:17:00] to communicate and talk and connect on this because it was something that they both had in common.

They were both going through. One of them had had a previous pregnancy with a successful transfer in the past. So she was guiding. My other patient who this was her first time and she was really nervous and she was calming her down. So it was really a beautiful thing to see. So what I found through and through with so many of my patients and so many of my clients, and even in times where I've created little cohorts 

of group coaching is that people connecting to others has been profound. Having this community of people going through the fertility journey and having this kind of friendship and support. is huge. So this is kind of like the opposite. So while many relationships can get impacted in not the best way, and in many situations you may [00:18:00] need to create boundaries.

While that can be so, it's just an amazing opportunity to make new relationships that you will have. Literally for a lifetime, because the bond that you have with other people that are going through the same kind of pain and difficulty and challenges as you is priceless.

Another question that I often hear my patients ask, and if it's normal, is when their sister in laws or sisters or even close friends are having baby showers. And they are expected to be there. And in some cases they do not know that they're going through the fertility journey. So this could be incredibly, incredibly difficult.

Because it serves as a reminder of what you do not have. And it could be really tough. And one of the most. difficult aspects of this that I hear from [00:19:00] the women that I work with is that it is conflicting emotions. You're really happy for the person and you feel so guilty that it's hard for you to be happy for them.

And you're feeling both emotions at the same time and you don't know what to do with yourself. So this is a really difficult time 

And it's one of the most challenging states of minds where you feel so many emotions at once. You feel grief, you feel sad, you feel jealous, you feel bad, you feel love. I mean, it's just a combination and it's just a crazy mix of emotions.

What I would say is you don't have to go. If it's that excruciating and that difficult, you can pass on these events. And if it means coming up with some kind of excuse because you really feel like you have to come up with it, then do it. Then come up with an excuse, make it simple, make it a simple and easy exit.[00:20:00]

Of course, you don't want to have to come up with an excuse and you sometimes cannot tell them the truth because they're just not going to understand it. So sometimes you need to do what you have to do to get yourself through this difficult situation. So in those cases, My perspective is that it is okay to say no or to figure out a different way and just to not go.

If you are going to be going through an extra added grief and difficulty, then Almost what's the point? What's the point of going? You're not going to feel happy in that situation and you want to be there in a positive way and you can't. And that's okay. And so in that case, I think you can create that boundary and you can give yourself a pass and you don't have to feel guilty for it.

So this is kind of like my own reflection, if that means anything or if that makes you feel any better. I personally think that this is something that you can definitely bow out [00:21:00] of and you have a very good reason to do so.

So really those are common things that I hear about how relationships get impacted through the fertility journey. So if your relationships are getting impacted and you're feeling a shift, I it is completely normal and very common. And it is something that is going to happen when you start to shift and you're going through your own changes and you're going through difficulties and feeling more vulnerable.

You're going to have different needs and you're going to need to also cut out certain elements that are just not helping you. And I will say, It's okay to be selfish. You need to take care of yourself. So really prioritize your self care. When you are going through this journey, you are in a fragile state, and acknowledging that knowing that can help you and it can help you empower yourself because then you know, okay, I need to come up with a different [00:22:00] strategy because typically.

new things will come up and we're just going to continue life the way we've always done it. But sometimes we need to shift it based on the demands of this new journey that we're on. Now, most of the time, even though those journeys can be long, I can attest because I've been working with a lot of people, is that it doesn't last forever.

But when you are on it, You do need to make some shifts and changes to address the draining of energy that you're going through and to address the need for more self care. So sometimes you can do things like meditate or journal and have a place where you're able to Write down your emotions or have some kind of counseling because it's important to be able to safely process your emotions and connect with people also that are on the same wavelength that are actually helping you in this journey.

And I can say that going out of your way [00:23:00] to be proactive about that. will really serve you so much because you need that support and knowing that you need that support ultimately is the first step

to empowering your journey.

So I hope you got some validation here on this episode because I know really that was ultimately my intention. is to validate what you're going through as completely normal. I see this all the time. It's very, very normal to go through in any kind of process that could be so traumatic and difficult. If you have any questions that you are wondering if it's normal, feel free to DM me on Instagram and my handle is at the wholesome lotus fertility.

I would love to hear from you and I thank you so much for tuning in today. Have a beautiful day. 

EP 297 What Our Historical Origins of Being Can Teach Us about Our Fertile Nature| Jenny Powers

Jenny Powers is an accomplished writer, scientist, and athlete.  She earned her Ph.D. in microbiology and immunology from the University of Colorado, Denver; her journey as a collegiate basketball player taught her to push physical boundaries even as she continually expanded her intellectual horizons. She is deeply inspired by the exploration of human nature and the study of our ancestors; her role researching and co-authoring On the Origin of Being marks the culmination of this passion to date. Jenny balances her professional endeavors with her roles as a wife and mother in Colorado.

In this episode, we discussed the evolutionary mismatch between our genetics and contemporary lifestyles, how this mismatch impacts our health, and how learning our evolutionary journey can help us return to a state of thriving. 

Her co-authored book, "On the Origin of Being" covers sleep, nutrition, work and rest, and our relationship with nature.

Takeaways:

• Our circadian rhythms, which evolved over millions of years, play a crucial role in our health and fertility.

• Prioritizing sleep and maintaining a regular sleep-wake cycle supports our natural rhythms and overall well-being.

• Our modern diet, high in processed foods and sugar, is not aligned with our evolutionary needs.

• Returning to whole, unprocessed foods can support our overall health and fertility. Processed fats and sugars are prevalent in the modern diet and can have negative effects on health.

• Fiber is important for gut health and helps regulate insulin levels.

• Understanding the evolutionary reasons behind our cravings can help us make healthier food choices.

• Overworking and a lack of rest can have detrimental effects on our well-being.

• Being present in the moment and finding work-life balance is essential for a healthy and fulfilling life.

• Website: https://www.ontheoriginofbeing.com/

• Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/ontheoriginofbeing/

• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ontheoriginofbeing/

Check out Michelle’s latest book here: https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

Follow Michelle on Instagram @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/ for more tips and updates.

For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Transcript:

Michelle (00:00)

Welcome to the podcast, Jenny.

Jenny Powers (00:01)

Hi, thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Michelle (00:04)

Yes, I'm excited to talk to you about this amazing topic and your new book. And I would love for you to first start with introducing yourself and your background, how you got into writing this recent book about where we came from.

Jenny Powers (00:18)

Yeah, okay. Well, my name is Jenny Powers. I grew up as an Air Force brat, so I kind of moved all over the country and got to play basketball at the University of Colorado when I studied chemical engineering. But then I went back to school to study immunology and that's what I got my PhD in.

studying the innate immune system, macrophages and cell signaling and stuff like that. But I felt while it was interesting and fascinating, I felt like there was just, I wasn't doing what I think was in my heart, which was to be a writer. So when I had my kids, it was really kind of a nice time to make a break from academic science and move into trying to become a writer. And I actually started writing

not fiction books for kids, middle grade books for like eight to 12 year olds. So I have a couple of finished manuscripts. Nothing's been published yet. But, you know, I needed some sort of part time easy, you know, kind of fit in my schedule job. And it was incredible that I found this job opportunity with my co author, Luke Comer. He actually was looking for someone to research one of his other books, which is a nutrition book.

And when I called to interview with him, he's like, I already found a nutritionist. I'm like, man, you know, this is that's too bad. You know, this sounds like a really good fit for me. And he's like, well, what about this idea? And so something that he had been like holding in his head for the last 10 years. And it kind of started when he was looking at nutrition, like how far away are we from how how how we are living right now? How far away are we from how we evolved to live?

And it kind of applies to all so many different aspects of our lives. In this first book, we cover, you know, kind of the basics, sleep, nutrition, work and rest, and our relationship with nature. But we actually have other parts, other books in the series, hopefully that will come out that cover more like social groups and cultural things and all of these things. We're no longer living in accord with our biology and

it sounded fascinating to me because there are several parts of that where I had already started feeling not quite connected. So the one that really stood out to me when I was writing this was the work because I was a PhD student and then the postdoc and I worked 70 hours a week and I was exhausted and then I had also,

in my late teens, early twenties started suffering from depression and then feeling really connected to the environment, but then seeing what's happening to the environment. So I had already had some of these things like really affecting my life. And when Luke presented me with this idea, he's like, well, what do you think about researching this and collaborating with me for a book on this? I was like, this sounds amazing because not only do I get to use

Michelle (03:30)

Yeah.

Jenny Powers (03:34)

my experience as a researcher, but I get to write and I get to write about something that I grew more and more passionate about as I researched it. I like to think that I was, I'm kind of just like a reader at the very beginning when you pick up the book, you don't know anything, right? And so, but so when I picked up this project, it was a total blank slate and it was amazing to be able to have the freedom.

to research and write until I learned so much about myself and about why maybe I was feeling depressed and the things that I can do to change. And it felt really good to be able to bring this into the world. And it's been a really exciting ride. You kind of don't necessarily plan something, but you kind of like take the next step. And then there's these like little breadcrumbs that you follow. And...

I had no idea when I started this project that I'd be on podcasts and we'd have a book in the world. And it's just been an amazing, amazing ride.

Michelle (04:35)

I bet. And I'll tell you, I mean, personally, I feel very drawn to this topic and I'll tell you why. I mean, this is a fertility podcast. I'm very much into that, but Chinese medicine is really my background. And Chinese medicine is really, you know, it's interesting because you look kind of back in the history and it's very old. You know, Chinese medicine has been around for thousands of years.

Jenny Powers (04:44)

Mm -hmm.

Right.

Michelle (05:00)

and they still don't really know the origins exactly. They estimate about 3000, but they think it's longer. But there was a lot of book burning that has happened over the years. And it's really based on Taoism, which translates as the way. And the way is living in accordance with the laws of nature and how over time, like when we lose that direction,

it can cause disease, dis -ease disease. And yeah, it's really fascinating. So I think it's really cool because this is kind of like modern research on something old, but like coming at it from a different angle, but similar, but it's deriving really at the same essence, which is.

Jenny Powers (05:29)

Right, right.

Yeah, it's at the heart of what you do. Yeah. How the laws of nature, what did nature do to get us here? Because nature, I like to call it nature and evolution, they were like biohacking, right? That's like this big catchphrase nowadays, like biohacking, but you're making small incremental changes over time and then see like what...

Michelle (05:58)

Yes.

Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Jenny Powers (06:15)

improves how you feel and what doesn't. And so that's what natural selection does. Like the things that improved our survival and improved our, you know, our wellbeing and our equilibrium are the things that stayed and the things that didn't serve us, you know, got selected out. And so I really feel like nature knew what it was doing and it had millions of years and lots of small little incremental changes that made us who we were.

Michelle (06:17)

Mm -hmm.

Jenny Powers (06:43)

for various reasons, for all of the environmental selection and what we needed to do to survive. And yeah, I totally see the ancient, how ancient medicine, ancient peoples, indigenous peoples, how they approach wellbeing. It's not just treating symptoms, it's treating the holistic, the whole body.

all of these different things that I think thankfully now more and more people like yourself and your functional medicine doctors and holistic doctors, you know, people who kind of bring the old and kind of combine it with the new. I think that is really where healthcare needs to go.

Michelle (07:22)

Yeah, it's really fascinating. And I think to myself, like just really how nature is. And what we've been seeing is that fertility has been on a decline and nobody really understands exactly what it is that's causing this for men and women. And there are many ideas of just environmental factors, toxins, like EMFs we don't even see, you know, we're not even aware of what's going on. It's not natural to the body. The body's not used to it. Like our DNA doesn't...

Jenny Powers (07:40)

Mm -hmm.

Michelle (07:50)

respond well to it because it doesn't know what it is and it doesn't know how to react. So really the basis of Taoism and all of that is that we in our nature are fertile. Nature is fertile. There's a seed in everything. Everything that grows has a seed because it wants to keep reproducing. And yeah, it's pretty fascinating. And I think to myself, some of the things that you guys wrote about were things that I talk about like sleep.

Jenny Powers (07:53)

Right.

I like that.

Michelle (08:18)

and the circadian rhythm. And so I would love to really start picking your brain on this because it's really fascinating. It's like really kind of coming home to ourselves and our, you know, the origin of being going back to that origin and how we can do that. Sometimes it feels like an uphill battle.

Jenny Powers (08:19)

Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

Michelle (08:35)

So even though fertility has been on a decline, that shouldn't make us lose hope because there are definitely things that we can do to bring ourselves back to our origins. So with that being said, I just want to always give a message of hope because there's always something that you can do. It might take a little extra work just because like the stream is a little strong right now in a certain direction that may be kind of moving us away, but there's definitely things that we can do.

Jenny Powers (08:44)

Exactly. Yeah.

Right.

Michelle (09:03)

And this is why I love your work so much because it sheds light on things that I think are so important. And so let's, let's cover all of it. Let's start with like the first part. And I believe the first part of it is sleep.

Jenny Powers (09:14)

Yeah, yeah.

Yes, that's the kind of the first fundamental way of being that we cover. It was interesting because I've listened to a couple of your podcasts and one stood out in particular to me, the one with Alison Locke. You talked about all kinds of environmental things and sleep and I found myself like nodding along because I was like, well, yeah, health contributes to fertility. But then learning about what you guys talked about in that podcast, I'm like, my gosh, so many.

Michelle (09:31)

Mm -hmm.

Jenny Powers (09:47)

of the things that we talk about in our book can be applied to fertility. Because it's just in order to be fertile and like you said, to access what we're naturally supposed to do, we need to be in a state of well -being and we need to be able to be in equilibrium. Because that's what nature designed us to do. And the very first thing when you started talking about circadian rhythms, I'm like, yes, totally. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Michelle (09:52)

Totally.

I loved it when I read it in your book. I was like, yeah, I felt the same way.

Jenny Powers (10:16)

Because so many people don't necessarily understand that the very first organisms on Earth evolved for circadian rhythms. Because in the sea where everything started, the organisms knew, like, OK, well, what time of day are the nutrients most available? What time of day is the safest to undergo cell division?

You know, you don't want to necessarily undergo cell division when you're at the surface, when the sun shining on you and you might get, you know, DNA damage. So those cells evolved to respond to the rhythms of the earth, because at the very beginning of time, at the very beginning of the earth, there was night and day. You know, we had we had sunlight and we had well, later we had the moon. But so like from the very, very origins of life, we had this this rhythm that

tied us to the earth. And so even with the smallest cell. And so every living thing has circadian rhythms, has genes. I mean, someone won the Nobel Prize for, I think it was for medicine, discovering that these genes that regulate the rhythms of your body are in everything. And what's interesting is circadian rhythms are

Michelle (11:38)

everything in your body or just in nature.

Jenny Powers (11:40)

Well, everything in nature, but also, I think what's important is some people like, well, we're evolved past that. Like humans don't have circadian rhythms, you know, because we're sophisticated beings. And what's interesting is we haven't evolved away from circadian rhythms, but our culture has pushed us away and our technology has pushed us away. So we might not think that, we don't need these to tell us what to do because.

But the problem is our society and our individuals, we override what our body is trying to tell us. We override the signals that circadian rhythms are trying to give us. So.

Michelle (12:19)

You're speaking my language. I literally say that all the time. We override it. It's, wow, I just love this.

Jenny Powers (12:24)

Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah, I feel like I mean, that's one of the main things in the book is, yes, the modern world is great and modern culture brings so many great things, but we have to be aware of like our bio, like we have to be aware of what our bodies are telling us. And people are so they're so focused on.

the future, or they're so distracted, or they want to stay up and watch another three episodes on Netflix and not sleep, or stay up and work until 2 in the morning. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And like you said, it all starts with a good night's sleep. And what was interesting when we were studying this is that a lot of the

Michelle (12:59)

Yeah

Yeah, those things are designed to be addictive. I feel like it's like the fast food of like, of shows.

Jenny Powers (13:19)

Indigenous peoples who are still surviving in these far out, you know, they've been pushed to the fringes, to not even the best, the most hospitable places on earth. They're kind of been pushed to kind of, you know, the places that we didn't want, like the modern people didn't want. But studying them, it's not like they got so much sleep and it's not like they, but what was really important was

they were completely in tune with the sun rising and the sun setting and their bodies responded to that. So when you think about nowadays, you know, we get up and we kind of have, there's someone in our book that I can't remember who was, it's like we live a twilight existence, right? We never get the same amount of light that the sun would give us, but we get it all straight through the day, right? Whereas if we were living,

according to our natures, we get lots of sunlight in the morning, really intense bright sunlight in the morning. And then it goes down. And then once the sun goes down, there's no exposure except firelight and moonlight. And what was interesting about what I love to know about blue light, because blue light is this big thing right now, right? But but the reason why we're so reactive to blue light is because that

is the wavelength of light that penetrated the sea. And so that's where life started. So the reason why we could have been attuned to any wavelength of light, but we were attuned to the blue light because of where our origins were. So getting lots of blue light, sunlight in the morning, but then not getting blue light after it goes down, after the sun goes down, it helps our bodies like reset, like, okay.

This is when our melatonin hormone is going to go up. And then once the sun goes down, the melatonin starts to be produced. And then there's this window where you're tired. And if you're listening to your body, that's when you go to sleep. And then if you're in tune with the Earth, the Indigenous people that were studied, they woke up at the same time every day and got that bright sunlight in the morning.

So it was just really amazing to see like these people, they sleep on the ground or on some skins and they sleep on their arms. And if you look at the difference, I think there's a picture in the book, like our beds are so comfortable, but they didn't even know what insomnia was because they didn't really experience it. It wasn't a problem. They were so in tune with the natural rhythms of the earth and they listened to their bodies.

Michelle (15:59)

Mm -hmm.

Jenny Powers (16:07)

that they just didn't have problems with sleep. And so that was a huge like eye -opening thing to me. Like you think like, humans have always struggled with sleep. And there are some people who struggle, but that what's really cool about people who have different genetics, different circadian genetics is that, you know, those night owls, people who can't fall asleep till late in the evening and have really have trouble getting up.

Michelle (16:14)

Yeah.

Thank you.

Jenny Powers (16:36)

that was an evolutionary advantage because there needed to be people to be sentinels to keep the rest of us safe. And because we had these amazing brains, we needed to have really good, high quality, deep sleep. And some of the reasons why, you know, maybe animals in the wild don't necessarily get really deep sleep is because

Michelle (16:44)

Mm -hmm.

Jenny Powers (17:04)

they have to be kind of aware of their surroundings. But humans, we got together into big groups and we protected each other. And so as our brains evolved and as our sleep evolved, we were able to get really dense, good quality sleep in a very short time. And because when you're asleep, you're pretty helpless, you know, especially some of the cycles of sleep, you're like parallel, you're literally paralyzed, your body's paralyzed.

Michelle (17:24)

Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Jenny Powers (17:32)

So the people who are early risers or late, you know, the night owls, they're actually helped us survive because they were alert at times when the other people weren't. So I've talked to a researcher and he said, well, oftentimes people who have these delayed sleep phases or advanced sleep phases, once they realize that it's evolutionary and like, it really helps them, like put it into perspective. Nothing's wrong with them.

Michelle (17:44)

It's fascinating.

Jenny Powers (18:01)

It's just part of how they evolved. So all that stuff just fascinates me.

Michelle (18:02)

Right.

That's interesting. That is so fascinating. Yeah. It's really interesting. But as you're telling me, it's really the regularity of that. It's that pulse, that rhythm and sticking with that rhythm. And interestingly enough, there's definitely a correlation with circadian rhythm, dysfunction and menstrual cycle health. So, and that's kind of our larger rhythm for women. And that would be an interesting topic for you to kind of go into is maybe make

series on this with women's health and the cycles and how that impacts it because it's really fascinating. I mean, we need that rhythm like our bodies really respond to that rhythm of nature. And once it has that really intact, then our bodies get more regulated. I had the same thing myself and this is how I got into Chinese medicine.

Jenny Powers (18:34)

Yeah.

Okay.

Michelle (18:53)

is because I had irregular periods, but I also had irregular sleep and so many irregularities. And I feel like it's almost like a train getting derailed. You have to put it back on track and then have that rhythm set again.

Jenny Powers (19:06)

Right? That's exactly right. And what's amazing is that, so in the book, we don't necessarily talk about fertility, but some of the reasons why we have these diseases of modernity, and I guess you could say like infertility and endometriosis, what you and Alison talked about, which was fascinating to me, was that all the things that women struggle with, PMS, pain,

mood swings, all of those things are kind of unnatural. Like the big, the severe symptoms of menstruation that women get are unnatural. And that like blew my mind. So, but, but we don't necessarily talk about fertility, but inflammation, stress, you know, cortisol levels, your gut health, all of these things we talk about in the book and all of those things that you talk about.

Michelle (19:45)

Mm -hmm.

Jenny Powers (20:04)

impact your fertility. So getting a good cycle start or getting back on track is like a really good place to start. Because you know when you don't get a good night's sleep. You feel tired and being tired for your whole day just sets everything back. You can't eat properly when you're tired. You don't want to exercise when you're tired.

Michelle (20:26)

Yeah. And when you're overtired, it's hard to sleep. That's the weird thing. It's kind of hard to get back into that rhythm like one way or the other.

Jenny Powers (20:30)

Yeah.

Because your body is in a stress state. When you have a sleep deficit, your body starts to be in more of a fight or flight. And then your body keeps you awake because there's like, well, there must be a reason why I have to be awake right now. So I'm going to help you. I'm going to help you be awake. And all the diseases that come from, I heard you talk about shift work. People who do shift work have infertility.

Michelle (20:38)

Yeah, it's very heightened.

Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Jenny Powers (21:02)

You know, shift work has been classified as a carcinogen because of their dysregulated circadian rhythms. Like humans weren't meant to work at night. That's not, that doesn't tell people like, cause shift work is really important. There's so many professions that it's important to, but people who do that just need to be aware so they can compensate for that. It's, you know, it's not like, shift work bad. You know, shift work is vital for some people.

Michelle (21:05)

Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Right, exactly.

Mm -hmm.

Jenny Powers (21:28)

But they need to know that that is going to predispose them to some things and they need to take preventative measures to make sure that their shift works and their circadian rhythms aren't, or their circadian rhythms being not in sync with the earth. They just need to remember that they need to try to mitigate some of the effects from that.

Michelle (21:46)

Mm -hmm.

So when they have breaks getting like more early morning sunlight or something to kind of like quickly anchor them out, like earthing, putting your feet on the earth, like how you were saying, I thought about that when you were saying people used to sleep on the earth and how that lowers inflammation. And then also the natural aspect of really connecting with like soil and the microbiomes that impact our gut health. So let's talk a little bit on the nutrition.

Jenny Powers (21:57)

Yeah.

Mm -hmm, yeah.

Okay.

Michelle (22:19)

aspect of it. So what are some of the things that you uncovered that are really more natural to us? And I saw, I noticed that you talked all the highly processed food and how that is like really not in line with our own digestive system and our body's ability to process them.

Jenny Powers (22:36)

Yeah, well, if in the book we talk about how from when we have the common ancestor with chimpanzees and bonobos. So we talk about kind of what their diet would be like and how changes in the environment changed our diet. And so, and then changes in the environment and then changes in our diet actually were some of the things that allowed us to evolve bigger brains because

when the environment changed, when the great rift came in Africa and split Africa into East Africa and West Africa, the East African side, the climate changed so much. It lost trees, it became more savanna, it became more grassland. And in order to survive, the animals, the early primates that were stuck on that side needed to evolve or they wouldn't survive. They lost their tree food, which was mostly fruits.

leaves and things like that. Food became farther apart. So we lost our ability to climb through trees, but we gained bipedalism and stature and being able to hold things in our hands when we walked. And we needed to find new sources of carbohydrates. So we started finding really high quality dense carbohydrates in like roots and tubers and things like that.

we really didn't need when we lived in the trees because we had all this fruit to feed our brains. But some of the cultural things that we needed, like now, so now all the animals, there were bigger animals and, you know, on the savanna. And so we had to increase our intellect in order to be able to eat, you know, eat the larger animals and to figure out how to dig up those tubers. So our brain size evolved, our intellect evolved.

But then in order to support that brain and our intellect, we had to find the foods that supported the evolution. So like the story of nutrition and the story of evolution, especially the evolution of our brains is so tied together. So, you know, it's like if you talk about nutrition, you have to talk about the evolution of our nutrition if you want to talk about the evolution of our bodies, because our big brain and another...

Michelle (24:52)

Mm -hmm.

Jenny Powers (24:55)

reason why we got big brains is because we were able to, our guts were able to shrink. So we have very short guts compared to other primates. And that's for two reasons. One is you were able to, all the nutrients and resources that are required to maintain gut, your gut can now be shifted over and maintain your brain. But we had shorter guts. So we needed to find

Michelle (25:17)

Mm -hmm.

Jenny Powers (25:21)

more energy dense food that was easier to digest. So we needed to find, we started to eat more and more animal meat and animal fat because those are easier to digest. Plants have things that are like don't eat being here. We need to kind of get rid of some of those things. But again, we got to use our intellect to learn how to hunt these bigger creatures, but also to process food. Like we, you can't eat a potato raw.

Michelle (25:37)

huh.

Jenny Powers (25:50)

You know, but we learned how to process food to make it easier to digest. So our guts could remain small and we'd still get all the nutrients that we need, but our brains will still also get what it needs. So we started to process foods. And when I mean process, it doesn't mean like the modern day processing of foods, because when our ancestors processed foods, you know, cooked it or grounded or fermented it, they still ate the entire food. They still ate the whole food.

Michelle (25:51)

Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

Mm -hmm.

Jenny Powers (26:20)

There was nothing that got thrown out. And so they processed the food to make it easier to digest. All of the nutrients of the food came into our bodies. And for our gut health, that was really important. The fiber was really important that we would eat. And so now these ultra processed foods that we have nowadays, there's just no fiber in them. It's just sugar.

Michelle (26:20)

Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Jenny Powers (26:46)

The consumption of this much sugar, it doesn't have any precedence. Yeah, and yeah, let's not even start talking about all the artificial stuff that gets put in there. So yeah, you were saying like our bodies just don't know how to handle it because over the last 300 years, so the agricultural revolution changed eating forever. But I feel like in the last 200 years since the industrial revolution, things have changed so quickly.

Michelle (26:50)

and chemicals.

Yeah. Yeah.

Jenny Powers (27:15)

I mean, we're eating, I think we went from eating like four pounds of sugar a year, like 300 years ago, and now people eat 150 to 200 pounds of sugar a year, which is just totally crazy. And something you talk about in the book, it's like we have this evolutionary mismatch because genes can't evolve that quickly, right? We can't rely on our bodies to adapt to this much sugar intake.

Michelle (27:26)

That's just crazy. Yeah.

Jenny Powers (27:45)

But something that's really cool about humans is a lot of these big things in our life, big hurdles that we needed to get over, we didn't need to evolve because we have our intellect and because we have culture. And so we could bypass evolution to fix problems. So what the good news about this is we can still bypass our lack of evolution to fix this problem, right? Because if we know

But the way we're eating, our bodies literally have not adapted. It takes hundreds of thousands of years for adaptations to make its way through an entire population. But if we know it, we can intellectually make the changes we need to make. So that's the good news. We don't have to be like, well, I wish our bodies would catch up so I can continue to eat this highly processed food. No, just stop eating it.

Michelle (28:35)

you

Jenny Powers (28:40)

eat the whole foods. And then you don't have to worry about, you know, that your body's not, that your body's mismatched because now you're now living more in alignment with what your body wants.

Michelle (28:41)

Yeah. Right.

Yeah, I mean, it's just so important because it is something that a lot of people are talking about now. Luckily, I think it's becoming like more front and center. For a little while there, nobody even paid attention to it. And it was also as interesting because people were like afraid of fats and everything with sugar. For a I think we were completely as a society blind to it. Until recently, I think people are starting to wake up to it.

Jenny Powers (29:01)

Yeah.

Right?

Right?

Yeah, yeah, and when those studies came out, that demonized fat.

Michelle (29:27)

they were funded by sugar companies.

Jenny Powers (29:29)

Exactly, yeah, because its own findings came out about sugar, but for some reason, the establishment focused on fat. And so, and there is, we do have a problem with fat, not because we're eating necessarily too much of it, it's because we're eating all the wrong kinds of fats, in the wrong ratios. And so, but also we're eating like, the fats we're eating are like,

Michelle (29:41)

Mm -hmm.

right trans fats and yeah.

Jenny Powers (29:55)

processed fats, you know, vegetable, all these oils that are processed, that you stick some of that oil and all this processed sugar together and pretty much 90 % of the things in the grocery store are made up of these things. The sugar that we never used to eat and the type of fat that we never used to eat, all of these processed fats. So, yeah, I'm glad that now sugar is coming out as being a villain in and of itself, but it's also to say, well, we need, our bodies need sugar.

Michelle (30:24)

Mm -hmm.

Jenny Powers (30:24)

But we need to have it in a form that digests slower, that also that goes into our bloodstream slower, that helps our insulin levels be more regulated. And we need to have the fiber that's still in there to help our gut health. Because if we just eat straight processed sugar all the time, it's like, I read somewhere, it's like, you know, a fertilizer runoff causes these algae blooms. Like one type of algae just takes over an entire ecosystem because it's

Michelle (30:28)

Right.

Right.

hehe

Jenny Powers (30:53)

if that's the one algae that like really liked that fertilizer. But if we're just eating sugar, all the beneficial gut bacteria, they're like, no, I want fiber. But this one gut bacteria is like sugar, sugar, give me more sugar. So you lose, you know, one dominates and you lose the diversity of the bacteria in your gut.

Michelle (30:56)

Right.

Yeah.

Well, when you were talking before and you were saying about how they ate the whole fruit or the foods and they didn't take parts, it wasn't like, like it was really eaten with a fiber. So usually the things that have naturally sugar have fiber as well. Most of the time you'll find, you know, fruits, most of them have fiber. So having even the juice of just natural fruits.

Jenny Powers (31:31)

Yeah.

Right?

Michelle (31:41)

is not quite the same as having it as its whole, like in its whole nature.

Jenny Powers (31:45)

Right, right, exactly. Because, I mean, it's funny because our whole goal, evolutionary goal, in order to feed our brains with our shorter guts, we needed nutrient -dense, easily digestible food, right? But we took it way too far because when we were doing it right, it was just us preparing the food, right? As soon as we had the technological advancements, for now, now we don't prepare the food.

and the industrial complex prepares this food, it's no longer in our control. And so what sells most? The things that are most palatable, the things that are energy dense, and the things that are easy to digest. And so with the advent of technology and the Industrial Revolution, we took that evolutionary goal way too far because it was a goal of ours.

Michelle (32:18)

Yeah.

Mm -hmm.

Jenny Powers (32:41)

There is a reason why sugar is addictive because when we ate sugar, as our ancestors ate sugar, you would receive dopamine because you needed to have glucose in your body. Your brain needs it to function. Your brain just uses sugar. Some of the other parts of your body use other things to fuel it, fats and things like that to fuel it.

Michelle (32:54)

Mm -hmm.

Jenny Powers (33:09)

primarily, but our brains need sugar. So there's an evolutionary reason why sugar is addictive. We just couldn't get our hands on it. We ate honey occasionally and we ate fruit. But this much sugar and process and basically like white flour, all the fiber is stripped out of it. That's pretty much just eating sugar because of the way that it just gets absorbed into your bloodstream.

Michelle (33:17)

That's interesting.

Yeah.

Yeah, it's empty calories. It's just not really like, it doesn't give you much bang for your buck at all.

Jenny Powers (33:42)

Right, right, right. But it does give you a release of dopamine and you feel good because we need to have that. But now again, we needed to have this instinct, but now we have our intellect. And so like, yes, we need to have a well -roundeddiet with carbohydrates and fats and proteins. But now we know intellectually, I'm craving that because I evolved to crave it.

Michelle (33:47)

Yep, right.

Mm -hmm.

Jenny Powers (34:10)

But I don't need to eat it. Like I can eat other things that gives me the same thing. And I find them, and I've found this and I've heard lots of people say once they start eating whole foods, the cravings for the potato chips and the brownies and the cookies, you just don't have those anymore. Right?

Michelle (34:10)

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Correct. Yeah, it feels like I think the difficult thing is that it feels like it's going to be forever. The suffering or the discomfort of the cravings or the withdrawal, it feels like it's going to be like that forever. It's really not. I would say two weeks, about two weeks, maybe three, but like really even the first week is a big one. And then once you get through that, you're feeling better. And then once you overcome that, it doesn't feel like anything. You don't miss it. So, and it's just...

Jenny Powers (34:36)

Right.

No. Yeah.

Right.

I don't, yeah, it's pretty amazing. I don't miss it. And then when I do, you know, have to have dessert, you know, when I'm out with friends or, you know, special occasions, I don't feel very good the next day. Like I enjoy eating it. But sometimes it's almost like, whoa, it's too sweet. But then, you know, you just have to realize, yeah, it's okay to indulge once in a while, but know that you're going to feel awful. But that also just reinforces that you're doing the right thing. Yeah.

Michelle (34:58)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

it totally does. Yeah. No, I have a lot of my patients when we talk about diet and then they go to a cruise and that's when they feel it. They're like, my God, I never realized like how this made me feel. And then they feel the difference. And I'm like, that's actually a good thing. I'm happy you went through that because it really shows you like you could really legitimately feel the difference from feeling good. When you're used to feeling bad, you almost don't know the difference until you feel good again. And that's kind of like another interesting. Yeah. You don't know better.

Jenny Powers (35:29)

What?

Right?

Exactly, you don't know any better.

Michelle (35:50)

But it's crazy how your body resists too much sugar. And then it starts to get insulin resistance. Like it's literally your body's like, whoa, like stop. And it kind of creates whatever ecosystem response to that. But it just shows you that your body doesn't like it.

Jenny Powers (36:09)

Right? The majority of the things that people go to the doctor for now, humans never used to get. I mean, humans got communicable diseases, but now we have all of these non -communicable diseases, you know, the metabolic syndromes, diabetes, obesity, heart disease, hypertension, all of these things are solely due to lifestyle.

Michelle (36:34)

Mm -hmm.

Jenny Powers (36:36)

Some people who have genetic predispositions to things. So that doesn't help that the lifestyle that's presented to us, the lifestyle that's marketed to us doesn't help those people either. They have a worst time of it if they're genetically predisposed to some of these diseases. But those diseases just, we never used to die of those diseases. No worries.

Michelle (36:59)

Hold on one second. Bye. My daughter.

Jenny Powers (37:05)

So that was another thing. I'm like, you're right.

People, if it was a disease that affected everyone in their childhood, we would have evolved. So whatever predisposition to that disease, we would have evolved away from it because the goal of evolution is to reproduce. And if you don't make it to reproductive age, you don't reproduce. So if these problems happened early in childhood,

they would have been evolved out because you wanna get to the point where you can reproduce and pass your genes on. But all of these diseases of modernity happen after, you know, after you're fertile, after you have kids for the most part. A lot of it kind of starts, your lifestyle starts, but that's why it's just so prevalent because it doesn't affect our evolutionary success. Evolutionary success is to have offspring, right?

Michelle (37:52)

Right, right.

Jenny Powers (38:04)

So it's affecting us later in life and it's affecting our quality of life. So like, yeah, we might still live to be 75, but how many of those years are really good years? Like when do you start having these debilitating illnesses that affect your quality of life? So the hunter gatherers and our ancestors, you know, who we have models of today, if they get past childhood and

Michelle (38:17)

Yeah, that's true.

Jenny Powers (38:33)

aren't forced to leave the land and be people, become who they're not with their lifestyle changes. They live very, very healthily into their seventies. And that because they're so healthy, they're contributing members of the group. They're not debilitated to the point where people have to give them.

Michelle (38:45)

Yeah.

Jenny Powers (39:00)

resources, they're still in the mix, they're still contributing, and that's because they're healthy.

Michelle (39:08)

Yeah, amazing. It's interesting how, I mean, just kind of being in your nature, your body responds to living kind of in accordance to the Tao. It's really like, it comes full circle to that. And then speaking of also just balance, let's talk about work and rest and how much we as Americans and really modern culture, I think pretty much anywhere

Jenny Powers (39:18)

Yeah.

Michelle (39:33)

overworking and there's barely any time to rest people. I actually just spoke to my cousin. She's been having gut issues and I told her eat earlier because she's been eating like really late every day. She goes, I can't. She goes, by the time I get home at 7 PM, she goes, I cannot leave earlier. I'm like, what? It just sounds so crazy. So she comes home really late and she wants to cook and have dinner with her husband. So it's

Jenny Powers (39:52)

Yeah.

Michelle (39:59)

really tough because I mean, it's just insane hours. Like, so how do you even work around that? But yeah, so talk about that and what you've discovered.

Jenny Powers (40:03)

Yeah. Yeah.

Well, I think what's interesting about our ancestors is they didn't have to worry about work and life balance because it was integrated, right? Their work life and their home life, it was all together. So they considered there, and it was another way of looking at it holistically. Like now we think we have our work and then we have our home, but their work was part of their everyday. But they also,

Michelle (40:30)

Yeah.

Jenny Powers (40:36)

What was really cool is that they didn't, they worked until they had what they needed and then they stopped. It was a very, someone coined this phrase, an immediate return economy because they didn't, they had such a different concept of time than we do. And they had such, you know, they lived off the earth and they had, they knew that whatever they needed, they would be provided that they didn't.

They didn't necessarily plan for the future. They worked until their needs were met. They listened to their bodies and like, okay, I'm not hungry anymore. I'm kind of tired. I'm going to go rest. You know, agriculture changed all that because now we went from an immediate return economy to a delayed return economy. You planted crops and then you waited and everything depended on this future outcome.

Michelle (41:14)

Mm -hmm.

Jenny Powers (41:30)

And so in today's world, we work now and we get a paycheck later. So it's another kind of way that we delayed our return on our investment, I guess. And so the way we look at work now, we never work in the present. We're always working. There's a deadline. There's this, we have this, we have this. And so in the book, we talk about how

Michelle (41:36)

Mm -hmm.

So interesting, yeah.

Jenny Powers (41:57)

rest and meditation really helps because we can't go back to an immediate return economy. You can't just be like, I've made enough money. You know, I'm going to quit my job or, you know, I'm going to go home when my hours are this. How you approach work can really change the outcomes of work. Like if you're if you stay in the present moment, not only can you you lower your stress, but you can also see what's really important if you're worried about some future.

Michelle (42:04)

Yeah.

Jenny Powers (42:27)

project, you're not going to be very efficient in the moment doing what you need to do. So it's kind of a mindset shift. Also, I think our society puts emphasis and puts people on the pedestal who work long hours and who make a lot of money. And so that and who have a lot of stuff. Yeah, we have

Michelle (42:36)

Yeah, definitely.

It conditions, it conditions you.

Jenny Powers (42:54)

I mean, I think I read it and it's in the book. An entire, I don't know, group of hunter gatherers had fewer possessions than a single farmer after the agricultural revolution. They just didn't have stuff. They didn't. And so once you have stuff, now you're like, you know, you need to buy more stuff and to buy more stuff, you need to make more money. And to keep up with the Joneses, you need to make even more money so you can buy more expensive stuff.

Michelle (43:21)

Mm -hmm.

Jenny Powers (43:21)

and buy a bigger house and then fill that house up with stuff. And then your house doesn't fit your stuff. So now you have a storage unit where you have to put your stuff. And so our emphasis on what's important in our society and what our society values is causing this work epidemic. I also think that people need to learn from an early age not to tie their identity with their achievements.

Michelle (43:24)

Right.

Jenny Powers (43:49)

tie their identity with work. Because I think we live in a place where it's kind of a meritocracy, where the people who are successful...

are just people and they're just as good, you know, the people who aren't successful, who are working their butts off every day, but enjoying their life, they're still these, they're successful people, right? They're not necessarily like making millions of dollars, but we idolize those people who make so much money. When really they might not have the best work -life balance. Probably not. I mean, I've never heard someone say,

Michelle (44:26)

Yeah, it's interesting.

Jenny Powers (44:29)

you know, on your deathbed. I wish I had had more money, you know? Yeah.

Michelle (44:32)

Right. It's 100 % true. Well, that's because it's an illusion. It's this illusion, you know, and the ancients talked about that, the samsara and the illusion. It's like a matrix. We're living in a matrix. I mean, that's, you know, it kind of is because it's, it's the set code of ways of being, and it causes us to continue moving into the future or thinking about the past and never being present. And the ancients always talked about now.

Jenny Powers (44:44)

Yeah.

Michelle (45:00)

becoming more present, more alive. And even with meditation, we know that it really makes your body work better. This presence, being present, having your attention is like gold. Having your attention in the now actually infuses your body with more vitality. And if you think about the ancients, I mean, their focus was 100 % when they were hunting or whatever they were doing, they were present, like really, really fully present.

Jenny Powers (45:29)

Yeah, exactly. And it's almost a survival. It was a survival mechanism. You had to be present so you could be... And this is kind of dovetails really nicely into the nature chapter because they were present in the moment and they were present in their environment, right? They could say, there was a deer came through here. There's that broken branch or they hear something.

Michelle (45:46)

Mm -hmm.

Jenny Powers (45:55)

you know, I think that's a predator, we need to go this way. Or they're so attuned to their bodies and to the world around them that they lived in the present moment. I mean, there's this stress reduction theory of nature, that nature, natural environments lower your stress and promote recovery because...

Yes, it has information, but has low levels of information that you need to be processing at all times. But when you are downtown in a big city walking around, there's cars driving by and there's people and there's loud noises. And so your senses are overwhelmed with all of these things to process. And now, where's my phone? Now we are overwhelmed by all of this information, all of the things that are just right at our fingertips.

Michelle (46:33)

loud noises.

Yes.

Mm -hmm.

Jenny Powers (46:50)

So no wonder we're stressed, you know, no wonder. Yeah, we're overwhelmed all the time.

Michelle (46:53)

We're overwhelmed. It's like too much, too much information all the time and it overwhelms our, our minds. And that's why one of the things that I think is actually releasing is important, especially now. So when we're meditating or releasing kind of like the excess doing less, getting more into this yin phase of less and more harmony and more quiet, that's why we need it because we are in such a young active mode.

all the time, nonstop, 24 -7. And that's considered good. I remember, because I lived, I worked in New York and it was like the city that never sleeps. That's amazing. It's like the best thing ever. And I remember what it did to my nervous system. It wasn't good.

Jenny Powers (47:29)

Great. People brag about it.

Thanks.

Yeah, I remember when I was in graduate school, we used to compare, well, how late were you up last night? I was in the lab until two in the morning. Well, I didn't even go to sleep last night. It's the hustle culture that's idolized. And what needs to be idolized is the slower culture where you actually enjoy at the moment by moment. I've noticed people always say, time is moving so fast. It's because we don't spend any time in the present moment.

Michelle (47:46)

Yeah.

Mm -hmm.

Jenny Powers (48:08)

we're spending a time in the future, we're spending time in the past and very few people actually experience every moment in the present. And I think if we experience moments in the present, time would seem slower. Time wouldn't seem to be just rushing by, rushing by, rushing by. And I know when you have kids, it seems that way because you actually see time passing as they're growing up. But I found that I feel like

Michelle (48:17)

Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

Jenny Powers (48:37)

When I'm less distracted, when I'm more relaxed, when I'm in the present moment, that's when you live. There's no other place to experience life except in the present moment. Everything else is just in your imagination, in your mind.

Michelle (48:52)

Yeah. And when I work with people, I always talk about that. Like, because if I can, if you can get as present as possible, and it's hard, it's hard when you're trying to get to a goal, you know, it could be the goal is pregnancy or whatever that goal is. But if you can work on getting as present as possible, you are actually infusing life force into your moment to moment. You're more alive. When you're more alive, your body's more alive. When your body's more alive, you're more fertile. So these are things that

Jenny Powers (49:15)

Yeah. yeah.

Michelle (49:21)

timeless again, you know, things that we've been told for centuries. And it's always go within, go, you know, where we have that innate knowing that connection with our earth that like, typically our bodies communicating with us. I mean, this is such a fascinating conversation. I could talk to you for hours because it's just, there's so much to uncover. I mean, we're really literally talking about the nature of humanity and like where we came from. And there's just so much. And I can see why you would want to do a series on this.

Jenny Powers (49:23)

Mm -hmm.

I...

Right?

Michelle (49:51)

And I would be fascinated by that in the future as well. But for people who are listening and they're like, this sounds really interesting. How can they find you and get to the book?

Jenny Powers (50:03)

Yeah, yeah, well, we have a website, www .ontheoriginofbeing .com. There's a link to places there. You can really buy it anywhere, any online retailer that you like, Amazon, Barnes and Noble. There's other places. I know people want to support smaller businesses and things like that. But it's available on online retailers. We are...

We have our website and we're also, we have a Facebook page at On The Origin of Being and I'm most active on Instagram at On The Origin of Being. That's where we're, I try to post at least once a day, little tidbits or news or like you said, this topic is so fertile. I don't feel like I'm ever gonna run out of things to post about because even if I'm posting about sleep, there's a million things I could post about sleep.

Michelle (50:52)

Yeah.

Jenny Powers (50:57)

There's a million things that they post about nutrition. So it and what's what's been amazing is I was off social media for 10, at least 10 years because it wasn't good for mental health. And when you have a book coming out, you kind of have to be out there a little bit. And so I was really worried. But what I found is there is this community of people like you have like minded people who who see

who have their eyes open, who see like, this is the way we're living is killing us. And they are actually, they really, really care about other people and their health. And they really, really care about the environment. And so I feel like there's this community online that I just hope to see it swell even bigger and bigger. I've just, I felt so supportive, supported. And so it's just so nice to meet other

people who are going through this journey and who have platforms like you who wanted to want to get the word out. You know, I feel there are these just genuine people who care and that's made my experience of being back in social media and getting back out into the world and promoting this book feel so much more comfortable. Just that that's just an observation that I've had over the last few months. It's really been an amazing experience.

Michelle (52:22)

awesome to hear. And yeah, it's like anything. Everything has like the pluses and minuses. And I think that that's what it is. If you come into social media, really taking advantage and using it for the good. It's like anything. It's like money. You know, people can say money is evil, but it's actually something that could be used to help a lot of people. So it depends really on the intention behind it. And I think when your intention is connected to purpose, then it's a lot of fun. Then you're like, okay, this is really, yeah.

Jenny Powers (52:35)

Right?

The tool. Right.

Yeah.

I like that. I like that connections. Yeah, it's totally. It's totally neat. Yeah. So, so we're on there. Yeah, and they just came out this week. I don't know when this is going to be airing, but the book came out this week. I think we've hit some number one, like bestseller statuses on a couple of different categories. And so it's been a very exciting time.

Michelle (52:51)

sucklings.

Awesome. That's great.

Amazing. Well, congratulations on the book. And this is fascinating. And I think it's so important because I think that as a society, we're craving to come back to our origins. We really crave that. And I think that we just, we lost it. And so this rekindles a memory because I think that we do store memories in our DNA. There is that kind of knowing that when we hear something, it resonates as true. There's a reason for that. I think it's cause we just, so it's a memory that got just awakened.

Jenny Powers (53:24)

I agree.

Yeah.

my gosh, totally.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, the good news is we still are running our hunter gatherer software. You know what I mean? We still, we have all these capabilities inside of us still. We haven't evolved since, you know, we maybe, for the most part, we haven't evolved since we were hunter gatherers. And it's still in there. We just have to refind, we have to find it. And I think learning about evolution and learning about how we got here,

Michelle (53:51)

Yep.

Yes.

Jenny Powers (54:11)

will really help us make better decisions now. Because like I said, we can adapt with our minds. We can adapt to anything. We're smart. We just have to do the work.

Michelle (54:21)

Yeah.

Yes. Amen. So Jenny, this was an amazing conversation. Thank you so much for coming on and I look forward to any future work that you do.

Jenny Powers (54:33)

Thank you, I really enjoyed talking to you today too.