EP 296 Is this Normal? Menstrual Cycle Edition

In this episode of the Wholesome Fertility Podcast, Michelle addresses common questions about menstrual cycle symptoms, discussing what is considered normal and what might require more attention. Michelle breaks down the phases of the menstrual cycle and explains various factors that can influence cycle regularity and health.

Key Points:

• Understanding the Menstrual Cycle

• Normal Menstrual Cycle Range

• Irregular Menstrual Cycles

• Common Causes of Irregular Menstrual Cycles

• Seeking Medical Advice

• Tips for Supporting Menstrual Cycle Health

Resources for the episode:

Check out my free ebook: The Best Kept Secrets to Harmonizing Your Mooncycle: https://www.michelleoravitz.com/hackyourcycle

Mira: CLICK HERE AND USE COUPON CODE WHOLESOMEFERTILITY FOR 15% OFF!

Tempdrop: CLICK HERE AND USE COUPON CODE AFWHOLESOMELOTUS FOR A DISCOUNTED PRICE!

Check out Michelle’s latest book here: https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

Follow Michelle on Instagram @thewholesomelotusfertility and Facebook https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/  for more tips and updates.

For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Transcript:

Is this normal? Menstrual cycle symptoms

[00:00:00] Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. I'm your host, Michelle Orbitz, and today I'm going to start a new type of series that is going to come every once in a while. And it starts out with, is this normal? Because oftentimes I do get questions, is this normal from my patients? Or sometimes people DM me on Instagram when it comes to their menstrual cycle.

So I thought that would be actually a really good thing to do. Idea for the podcast because there are many things that can be normal and there are many things that. might require more attention.

So on today's episode, I'm going to talk about what is normal and what is not when it comes to irregular menstrual cycles. So a menstrual cycle in general is not just the period. Sometimes when people hear menstrual cycle, they think of menses or menstruation. And the menstrual cycle itself [00:01:00] starts out from day one, which is the moment a person has a bleed, but not just spotting, but like a full bleed.

And so once they have a full bleed that is considered day one of their menstrual cycle. And typically how you would know how long your menstrual cycle is, is because you would mark the first day of a real bleed to the next day of the next cycles full bleed. So whatever time that is, That is the days between your menstrual cycle and so you start out with the bleed and that is the follicular phase of the menstrual cycle where the follicle grows to be ready for ovulation.

So typically about mid cycle is when ovulation usually occurs, but of course it's different with every person. And then after ovulation from that point until the first day of the [00:02:00] next cycle or continuous if there's hopefully pregnancy, but that is considered the luteal phase. And typically if you were doing a BBT charting, Just to kind of give you an image in your mind, the follicular phase, the first part of the cycle is about 97 degrees of basal body temperature.

And of course it can fluctuate a little up and down. And then the second half is 98 degrees. And. Usually it increases. That's kind of like more of when you look at the yin and the yang. That's more of the yang phase versus the beginning, which is the yin phase. And if you see that the temperature is a little too low or too erratic, those are things that might want to get your attention, maybe to check your thyroid.

And go to an OB just to kind of get general labs drawn or a reproductive endocrinologist, which I always recommend anyway, just to kind of get your baseline. [00:03:00] So that being said, that is the menstrual cycle. That's typically, , the different phases of the menstrual cycle.

And today I am going to mention what might not seem like a textbook cycle, but it's still within the normal range. So, typically, a textbook menstrual cycle is 28 days between the first day of the first period, and To the second day of the second period, the next period, and that is textbook. And the reason why I say textbook is most of the time people do not follow what is in the textbook.

It is the majority of people are around 28 days and usually they will ovulate. Around the middle, like, so about 12 to 14 days is usually when ovulation happens, but that can, that can also shift a little bit depending on the person and within a normal range. So a normal [00:04:00] range of a menstrual cycle can actually be between 21 and 35 days.

Although I would say 21 days is short in my book, I would definitely try to extend it a little bit. For me personally, as an acupuncturist, I would like to have it 24 days or more. 35 days can happen and I actually prefer longer than shorter. And the reason is because for pregnancy, you definitely don't want a short luteal phase.

You want to have enough time for the egg to mature in the follicular phase and you want to have enough time. For implantation to occur in the luteal phase and if the cycle is too short, you kind of wonder, is there something that's being compromised in the process.

So those are the concerns that I would have. It's kind of almost like allowing enough time to cook for lack of a better explanation, but basically that's [00:05:00] what I would. And I'm not sure what you guys prefer personally. Although I've had patients before with, coming in with secondary infertility that have always had 24 23 day cycles and they got pregnant with that cycle multiple times with healthy babies.

So it does happen. So I did want to kind of mention that. So if your menstrual cycle is not pretty healthy, Perfectly 28 days, don't let that get you down because it doesn't necessarily mean that you're not going to be able to get pregnant. There is a range but like I said, 21 days for me, even though that's kind of like the widely known range, that to me is a little too short.

So first, let's cover what is considered like an irregular menstrual cycle or what seems to be something that would be looked at as Not normal. So some of the things that can happen is when cycle lengths vary. So every single month, it's different. One month, it's like 26 [00:06:00] days. Another month, it's 35 or longer and it really goes all across the board.

There's no regularity. And when I see that, I think to myself, like the pulse is not regular. There's something's off with the pulse. So if you think about it, it's kind of like, I can compare it to like an irregular heartbeat, but I also don't want to cause any major concern. I mean, I had irregular periods for 12 years before I got my own.

So. Checked and taken care of, but to me, something was off with my rhythm and eventually it can be something that can get worked out. So this is more for you just to kind of keep in mind that if that is the case, look into seeing your doctor. but also possibly seeing a practitioner and really like figure out what's happening beneath the surface that's causing the pulse to not be regular.

Another thing is missed [00:07:00] periods, which is what I went through. So are you having it every other month? Are you having it every three months? Every month and a half like what's going on? Like why is it so long? Why are you getting missed periods again? This is another form of the rhythm not being a strong pulse

or is your cycle extremely short? 23 days or less. Like I said, they consider 21 days to be within like the bottom range, but I personally would like it to be more. So that's another reason you have to really uncover what's going on. Is the follicular phase too short? Is the luteal phase too short? This is one of the reasons why I highly suggest doing BBT charting because it gives you a really good idea of what the pulse looks like from month to month.

And even if it is stressful, it is something to kind of consider because it'll help you out in the long run. 

And consider even doing [00:08:00] it for a short time or just a couple of months, almost to just measure and see what's going on.

 Another concern could be unpredictable menstrual bleeding. So it's just all over the place. You never know when it's going to come. It could be too short. It could be too long. It just comes out of nowhere. Spotting between periods, so when you're ovulating, spotting between periods is really something to look into, there can be many reasons for that.

Very heavy or very light periods when it's too scanty, you barely have any blood and it's like barely even fills up a pad. So that's something to consider. Like, why is there not enough blood? Because , when you see the blood, it actually shows you what's happening with your uterine lining and that can be hormonal.

It could be many different reasons. Another thing to consider is. not getting periods. So I have seen a case where one woman was not getting periods, but she was ovulating. So if [00:09:00] somebody's ovulating, but not bleeding, they need to look into, is there scar tissue adhesions? Like what's going on? What's causing the blood to not bleeding?

happen or the uterine lining to not increase. Something's really getting in the way of that. So that's something to consider as well.

Now, if you get occasional irregular periods and you find that during those months you were traveling, you might've gotten sick. You know, there's some people that have had it with COVID or the flu. Or you're stressed, you have increased stress or you're working out a little too much. Those kinds of things are actually normal variations.

It's just the body is responding to some kind of stress or that there's more of a load. And it's such a perfect example of something that I often say is that the body really needs a lot of energy in order to support its reproductive health. So this is like a perfect example of that. That sometimes things happen and people go through [00:10:00] grief, just unexpected events in life.

can throw off that pulse and just kind of think about it as almost like a weather pattern that's out of norm. And all of a sudden, boom, a wind hits you from the side and that throws off that normal pulse. So then you go back on track and you're back to normal. So that can explain that.

Sometimes you can have mild variation, so it's not really a huge difference. Just a few days,

but really the things to consider are if you're not getting a period, obviously that's not normal. That's something to look into. And if you're getting your period way too soon. every single time. And there's no rhyme or reason or there's severe pain or excessive heavy bleeding. And of course you really need to get that checked out immediately 

Because there are certain dangerous situations, and you don't want to excessively heavily bleed in general. And then severe pain could be even an ectopic pregnancy, [00:11:00] so those kind of things would definitely prompt a visit to the ER.

So some causes of irregular menstruation are conditions like PCOS or thyroid disorders. Which is why it's important to go to a doctor and get a baseline test to make sure that everything's going well and that there's no underlying health factors that are causing issues with the menstrual cycle.

So another thing is something called hypothalamic amenorrhea, and that is when a person expends more energy than their body is able to keep up with. So when the body is at a deficit of energy through stress or through lifestyle, like over exercise or through not eating, so they're at a deficit of the calories that they need, to support their reproductive health.

That will cause the body to start to switch gears, focus [00:12:00] more on survival than it does on the reproductive health. And it shuts down hormone production, slows everything down. So it really is important to make sure that you're getting sufficient sleep and sufficient energy and with food and protein.

because reproductive health demands a lot of energy 

and high stress can lower progesterone, which can also impact your menstrual cycle and cause mid cycle bleeding. Other factors are just overall stress. So stress in general takes a lot of energy out of your body. So whether it's physical stress, emotional stress just not getting enough sleep. All of those things can impact a menstrual cycle, significant weight loss or weight gain.

So I've seen people that have a high BMI or a low BMI similarly have issues with ovulation [00:13:00]and menstrual cycles.

Other medical conditions can be endometriosis, which can cause really, really painful periods. Sometimes people will feel it in their back and they'll also tend to have gut issues. That is something that can only be diagnosed through something called a laparoscopy. So if a doctor tells you when you go to a doctor that they did an ultrasound and that you have endometriosis, I would get another opinion because they cannot tell you that and confirm that you have endometriosis unless they actually go in through a laparoscopy, which is a 

surgical procedure when they go in and they check, because there is no other way to diagnose endometriosis. Endometriosis and also never self diagnose. You really want to confirm. So just because you have painful periods doesn't mean you have endometriosis and then uterine [00:14:00] fibroids.

If, depending on the location that they're in, if they're inside the uterus on the actual area where the uterus sheds, it can cause really, really heavy bleeding. Endometriosis. Endometriosis. If they're within the muscle of the uterus or outside of the uterus, that usually does not impact fertility and it also doesn't really impact the menstrual cycle.

Pelvic inflammatory disease can cause a lot of pain and it can also cause issues with menstrual cycles and

pain during sex as well. Other factors that I've seen are birth control methods. So like birth control pills, people who have been on them for years and years and years and then as soon as they come off they don't get their period back right away. And I say right away because most of the people, actually all of the people that I've seen that have had post birth control amenorrhea Have gotten their period back.

So acupuncture works really [00:15:00] well on getting a period back if it's lost, especially with birth control pill, but also with PCOS. I've had great success with that. So it is a really good way to. get that pulse back. And that's kind of what I found. Certain medications can impact menstrual cycle, environmental toxins xenoestrogens.

So those are things to definitely keep in mind when it comes to other factors that can cause issues with menstrual cycles. So

if you think or suspect that there's some kind of issue or abnormality with your ovulation or that your cycle's too short, too long, and you want to look into more what's going on my first thing is always get your baseline from an OB or a reproductive endocrinologist. If you're actively trying to conceive and you're listening to this podcast, most likely you are, [00:16:00] then I would definitely go to a reproductive endocrinologist and get your baseline.

And if you're not interested in IVF, that's fine. They might suggest it to you. Just go. Knowing that you're going really to get the baseline test first and then you can decide whatever you want but it's good to get the information and They will know what to look for and that's kind of what's What is really good about going to a reproductive endocrinologist is because they'll really look for everything when it comes to conception and what is getting in the way of conception.

So I would also highly suggest to do BBT charting. I kind of brushed upon that before, but BBT charting for at least three months because you want to see if your ovulation is normal. a happening B when it's happening and also is it regular? Is it, is the pulse normal? Like, is it [00:17:00] always the same or is it shifting all over the place?

If it's the same, it's amazing because then you'll know more or less really what your regular time is. And then of course you can work on that. And if you do decide to go to practitioner, that is great information for the practitioner to know because based on that, at least for me, When I find out what's going on, I actually could work out a lot of the kinks with herbs and supplements and acupuncture.

So all of those things could definitely help because if I know the temperature is low, I can work on that. I can increase it with herbs. I can do something called moxa. So that's really great information for. A practitioner to know and some Ayurvedic practitioners or nutritionists can also work it out 

, so a lot of people know how to shift things based on their knowledge and their perspective. And it is a lot easier to do that if we know what's really [00:18:00] going on beneath the surface. As far as the temperature goes and like what the rhythm is.

Another alternative is there are certain bracelets and devices that you can put on your arm like the Ava bracelet that goes on your wrist or TempDrop that goes on your arm and those are great because they will check your, skin temperature. 

And based on that, they can see when you're ovulating and where you are in your cycle and when your fertile window is, which is awesome. And if you don't want to do that, you can also do something like Mira or Inito,

which is basically little test trips. That check not just your LH, which is typically what you'll find from over the counter OPK kits which OPK stands for ovulation predictor kits. But this actually will monitor the different types and it'll give you a nice little graph and tell you what's normal, what's [00:19:00] not normal.

They have an app. And if you want, I actually have a discount code for Mira, which I'm going to put in the episode notes. So you can check that out.

So those are the three ways I would recommend if you really want to get confirmation. If you ovulated, , I wouldn't say I would rely on the LH sticks. They can be confusing, especially if you have PCOS and you really just are getting information about your brain releasing LH, which is trying to get the body to Ovulate, but you don't really know or can't confirm if the ovulation actually happened just based on the LH6.

So if ovulation isn't really happening, it can be very confusing.

So here are some tips that you can do, which generally speaking. Are going to help your body with fertility and reproductive health and are going to support your menstrual cycle health and number one is stress management. It is really, really important [00:20:00] to counteract a lot of the demands that We are having in general, like in general life, modern day times, but also all of the demands that especially are heavier during the fertility journey.

So things like meditation, which I can go on and on about, which I'm sure you kind of figure that out. And even yoga, which I consider to be like an intelligent exercise. and it works really well with calming the nervous system and your nervous system matters. And this is one of the reasons I think that acupuncture works so well for fertility.

It works amazing on the nervous system. It calms the body, calms the mind, and it allows your body, because when you're in this state of calm, you're able to sleep better. Your body's able to regulate itself and hormones start to regulate. So those things are really important. And then also not skipping breakfast.

If you want to do an intermittent fasting, if you [00:21:00] are trying to lower the BMI, that would be the only time I would suggest to do something that is not quite intermittent fasting. Like you'll hear about it normally, but it's just eating earlier. Like having your last meal around 5 or 6 PM. Transcription Outsourcing, LLC.

 And then consider working with a practitioner or somebody who really understands PCOS if that's what you have to address it with diet. And there's certain supplements that can really help. And you can do acupuncture and even massage. I'm a huge fan of because it really helps calm the nervous system.

Also be sure that you're eating enough. Not under eating and not over eating. Avoid processed foods. Try to eat as many whole foods as possible and many whole food ingredients as [00:22:00] possible.

 And lastly, connect with mother nature. So studies show that sleeping at certain times is better, more supportive for menstrual cycle health. One of the things that I actually forgot to mention is that sometimes shift work can impact ovulatory function and menstrual cycle function. So it's important to anchor your circadian rhythm by getting early morning sunlight.

Allowing your eyes to feel the sun, so don't look directly in the sun, but allow the sun to hit your eyes from the side so that your eyes are processing that it's daytime. By doing that, you're going to anchor your circadian rhythm and that's going to impact your mental cycle rhythm, but it's also going to help your sleep wake cycle and it's also going to help your sleep.

So, it is one of the hands down best practices. Besides meditation that I often recommend, and then also earthing, putting your feet on the earth. and really connecting with nature because we're talking about [00:23:00] this huge pulse and the nature always has its pulse and it continues to have that. So we always can anchor to that and use that pulse that nature has in order to help our own pulse, which is for women, the menstrual cycle.

So I hope you enjoyed this episode. And if you have any questions, you could definitely DM me on my Instagram, which is at the wholesome Lotus fertility. And thank you so much for tuning in today. And I hope you have a beautiful day.

EP 295 The One Thing I Suggest to Everyone I Work With

This solo episode delves into the profound impact of meditation on fertility and overall health. Highlighting the often overlooked aspect of mindset, Michelle explains how stress and the resulting cortisol levels can negatively affect reproductive health. She shares her personal insights from over 20 years of meditation practice and references ancient wisdom as well as modern research, including Dr. Joe Dispenza's work on the mind-body connection.

Key Points Discussed:

1. Introduction to Meditation

2. Mind-Body Connection:

3. Practical Meditation Tips:

4. Overcoming Common Meditation Challenges:

5. Protecting Energy and Boundaries:

6. Meditation Techniques and Benefits:

Check out Michelle’s latest book here: https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

Follow Michelle on Instagram @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/ for more tips and updates.

For more information about Michelle, visitwww.michelleoravitz.com

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Transcript:

Meditation and fertility

[00:00:00] Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. I'm your host, Michelle Orvitz, and it's been a while since I have done my solo podcast episode. And today I wanted to talk about the role of meditation and enhancing fertility. And I've talked about meditation before, but it is such an important topic that I want to talk about it again.

And so today I'm going to talk about the benefits of mindfulness or just meditation, many different types of meditation. And why it's so important when it comes to overall health and fertility health. It is often one of the things that is really missed and taken off the list. Many people who come to work with me, whether it's online or in person, they share with me that they're eating the right things, taking the right supplements, they did everything.

And most of the time when I ask about the mindset aspect, it is not the same. That really [00:01:00]priority. So it is something that I find myself really taking like a session or two just discussing because it's something that can be very abstract. And of course it's invisible. Our mindset, how we think is often something that runs in the background.

And it's kind of like this programming that we have that's in the background of our life. And we often don't pay attention to it. We often actually get distracted and don't even realize that our reaction to things that are outside of us. comes from our mindset. And there are many different ways that we can react.

There's many different ways that we can take it in. And so there are aspects of our mindset that we don't even realize are happening. And we may not even realize that they can impact our hormones, they can impact our sleep, and they can even impact our cravings and what we [00:02:00] eat. So this is why. I say that although it's invisible and although it is very abstract to really look at, it is so important.

And it's probably, if anything, the number one priority that I usually try to address when I work with patients and when I work with my patients. Customers online.

So I know that there's also a debate on stress and fertility, and there's always the argument that people at war times are really, really stressful events, get pregnant. And while this is true and a valid argument. That doesn't take away from the fact that when people stress, that increases cortisol, and cortisol is a hormone, and that can impact many different things for both men and women, and we know that men's nervous system can impact male [00:03:00] reproductive health. And for women, cortisol competes with progesterone, and it can impact progesterone. It can also impact sleep, which has a cascade of events. It can impact hormone production and hormone 

regulation. So all of these things are very important and stress does impact the body and how , the state of mind is impacts physiology. And we're seeing that. And slowly by slowly we're starting to get a bigger picture through modern research on just how much The mind can, in fact, impact the body and impact reproductive health.

So these are just some examples, but I also have my theory. So my theory is this. is that we have an incredible intelligence, this divine intelligence that programs our body. We have [00:04:00] blueprints in every single cell in our body, and that is the DNA, and it has instructions, it has information, and it can turn on and off.

This is called epigenetics. It can turn on and off to be healthy or not healthy, and it can go into a state of health or dis ease, and And this really is something that happens based on our environment and our environment or our internal environment, our blood can have stress hormones or it can have hormones that are more beneficial for growth.

And this responds to our state of mind. So we have this incredible vast intelligence within our body. And my belief after meditating for over 20 years, actually more now at this point consistently, I know that when I've gotten quiet[00:05:00] and this is kind of like something that I know just based on my experience.

And this is something that a lot of other meditators will say. And most of the intuitives that I have on the podcast feel that when I ask them, how do you get into your intuition? How do you connect? Most of them will say, or meditate and give yourself that opportunity to connect with that divine intelligence.

So this is what it is is that now we are living at a time where we don't have a lot of opportunity to connect with this divine intelligence. This divine intelligence is available to us because we are made with it. So we can connect with it anytime and part of, if you haven't read my book already, the way of fertility, a big part of really the inspiration for that is based on a lot of the ancient wisdom [00:06:00]that is at the heart of Chinese medicine and also Ayurvedic medicine and a lot of like these old medicines and way of life.

Thank you. And if we look back to what the ancients told us, they gave us a lot of hints and a lot of amazing, amazing information that is so rich with wisdom. And one of the things that you'll find over and over again is that they all point us to go within, which is really interesting. They always say the answer is within, and there's always kind of like this direction to go within.

When you do meditate, it makes a lot of sense, but we're living in a world that doesn't even acknowledge the within anymore because there's so much distraction, there's too much information constantly bombarded with lots of information, the algorithm, all this stuff that just comes [00:07:00] at you, whether you're on YouTube, social media, or just the internet.

And while that can be great. And it could be a huge tool. And this is one of the amazing things about technology. I mean, there's a lot of benefits to it. However, there can also be an imbalance with that. And that takes us very, very much away from our wisdom and the quiet within and that part of us that knows, and this is why.

I feel like it's so important to really make that space to connect with yourself because your body is so smart. It communicates with you. You can communicate with it. And my philosophy, my own perspective on this, through Chinese medicine is one of the things that I know is that the reason we do acupuncture, the big reason, I mean, obviously there's so many different people with so many different [00:08:00] needs and acupuncture is different based on those needs.

However, one of the biggest ways it works is it really creates an opening so that the chi or life force within the body, which is intelligent, by the way, that is able to go into areas that don't have as much, either they're blocked from excess or they're deficient. And they need more of that energy and more of that intelligence and more of that consciousness to fill it because once it does, then the life force comes back and that life force or that area that's, I guess you can say being ignored, because there are blockages or there's some kind of reason why.

That life force is not getting to it. Those areas can get that consciousness, that life force. And when you [00:09:00]meditate and you focus even within your body, you can actually bring that life force just with your awareness alone. So you may know that I'm a huge fan of Dr. Joe Dispenza's work. I've been to three of his retreats.

Two of them were a week long, incredible, incredible retreats. And I see people overcoming major terminal diseases just from his retreats alone and also the practices that he shares. And one of the practice is. really paying attention and bringing your focus into the energy centers of the body and he'll go through the different energy centers, which in ancient times were called chakras and paying attention to them, just bringing your awareness to them brings life.

So it kind of is like [00:10:00] light, almost like the light of your consciousness. You can imagine is like the light of the sun and infusing a plant or some life force living thing.

And, I think it's pretty cool because a lot of what he does and a lot of the work that he does and the meditations that he does, he actually has a research team that comes with him and they research and study. probably close to half of the participants at the retreats and they see how the meditations impact them and how they literally shift and change their way of being.

And I remember one of the things that he talked about was That when you're laying down, he has you laying down after the meditation and he said it's really good for regulating the nervous system. And when you're laying down, he said you're able to absorb almost like how hypnosis works and you're able to gain [00:11:00] suggestion or like get a programming.

But he said, it's not a programming of anything that anybody's saying. It's connecting to this vast intelligence. that we're all a part of, that we all come from. He talks about it as the quantum field of infinite possibilities, but this intelligence, this coherence that starts to happen. And the ancient used to look at it as the yin and yang balance.

They looked at the harmony between the elements. They described it in different ways, but they're all pointing to the same thing. And the bottom line is, is that we are part of this vast Intricate, incredible intelligence. And when it's healthy, when it's working optimally, it is working with coherence. And when it's not.

It's moving away from that. There's less consciousness. There's less intelligence. There's a blockage to that intelligence. And you can say that's like a blockage to the chi because the chi is not just life force. Life force cannot be without the intelligence [00:12:00] that's running it. So when you are not connected to that, and that's where a lot of people have listened to some gurus talking about meditation, it's really connecting to cosmic energy, cosmic intelligence.

There's a difference between the energy that you get when you're sleeping, although very important. And there's a difference between the energy you get when you're meditating and connecting with cosmic intelligence. And so that cosmic intelligence feeds your body. And when it feeds your body, it gets you closer to better health.

And as we know, fertility health relies on good health, and you need to have an overflowing amount. of nutrients, energy, chi, blood, really an overflowing. Why? Because in order to sustain another extra life, you need that overflowing of energy. When you have difficult emotions [00:13:00] and you are experiencing things that are very draining, which often can be counteracted with meditation, because meditation helps you even out that energy so that When triggers come, they will not zap you as much as they would if you're not energy consolidated, which is what happens with meditation. This is kind of part of meditation. It's a side effect, but a good side effect, one that is welcome. And that one that feels really good when you're actually getting that. So when you're able to do that and it protects you, it almost has a layer of energetic protection when you are experiencing a challenge, you're able to regulate and come back to yourself faster. And I'll tell you one thing, emotions when we're talking about an overflow of energy and all the things that we really need, because reproduction is so energy consuming. When you do experience really difficult emotions, those things [00:14:00] can really zap you out.

Your energy and we've all experienced those times where either we deal with drama or something comes up or a really difficult exchange We at the end of the day are so drained And so that's why it's very very important to protect your energy Part of it and this is kind of a side note is boundaries.

Honestly, like Cutting out maybe temporarily certain relationships that are too draining. This is something that you need to protect. You need to protect your fertility journey. Like going through this is very, very taxing as it is. So it's important really to work on your energy. And one of the biggest key ways really is meditation is really allowing yourself to experience the emotions that come up, sit with it.

Feel it. And I will say some of the most common things that cause resistance in a lot of my patients or my clients. These are [00:15:00] the common things that I hear when it comes to meditation and after I suggest meditation. The first one is, I just can't sit still. Well, I have news for you. Nobody can, it's because the mind is called a monkey mind for a reason, because it goes from, it's like a swinging from one branch to the next, to the next, to the next, and that is your thoughts.

So that is the typical nature of everybody's mind. It goes from one thought to the next. That's normal. So you're not really meant to stop thinking when you're meditating. You are building a muscle of your attention so that when you do have thoughts, you become aware of them. You catch yourself. You don't judge yourself.

You don't say, no, no, I shouldn't be thinking, or no, no, this is bad. You just observe it. neutrally and then go back to your breath or go back to the mantra, whatever it is that you're anchoring in. You repeat that over and over and over[00:16:00] again until you can start shifting that habit of getting lost in the thought.

When that happens, naturally you will learn to become more present when you are facing a trigger. So a trigger comes up. You feel it, but then your awareness becomes stronger than the trigger because you're meditating, you're training your mind to notice things. And that is when it doesn't have a hold on you.

That's why some people can really get sucked into that trigger and then other people can get into the state of the executive mind function and not get triggered emotionally. When we get triggered emotionally, which does happen and there's nothing wrong with that. But when we get triggered emotionally, those are those moments that zap us the most.

So this is really about empowering your mind so that you're able to consolidate your energy as much as possible,[00:17:00] because ultimately that is going to benefit you overall if you're on the fertility journey.

Another common block I see for people who are first trying to meditate is that they believe that it doesn't do anything. And, and that's another mind perspective. So the mind will give you thoughts about things to do. To deter you. It's almost like a little trickster, that freaking mind.

It'll give you thoughts and it will plant ideas and you can either bite and take them as fact or realize, wait, that's just the thought. Let me keep doing this to explore. And so your mind is going to convince you that you're not doing anything, or your mind is going to convince you that you need to do a lot more or you're going to get bored.

Here's the thing. If you're used to being on a certain pace all the time, it's going to feel strange at [00:18:00] first to shift that piece and get to a receptive yin state. So the yin and the yang. Yang is pretty much. Like the majority of everything right now in our world, it's just, everything's go, go, go. And too much of that burns out energy.

So we need to go back to the yin. Meditation is a more yin, receptive state. And doing that, shifting gears is the most uncomfortable thing. Shifting realities, shifting gears, shifting rhythms can be very uncomfortable if you prepare yourself for that in the beginning of your meditation practice, meaning when you first start to slow down, meditate and create a practice routine, then you know that that discomfort will not last forever.

When you know that it's temporary and it's just shifting of gears, it's the turbulence that happens when you're shifting levels of consciousness. When you prepare yourself [00:19:00] for that and you just know that, then it doesn't feel as difficult. And another thing that can really help with that is becoming aware of that.

Hey, That's interesting with curiosity, kind of paying attention. I feel a little agitated. What does that look like? What does that feel like? So instead of going to the thoughts of that, start feeling what your body feels like when you're experiencing that become observant of that. It's like looking at a picture upside down.

You're starting to notice different things. You look at the shapes. So you're breaking down the experience of what that feels like. So that it's not so scary and your knee jerk reaction is not going to be to resist it because ultimately that's what it does. Your mind will have you resist things or get too attached and that's the push and pull that happens that causes us to have suffering.

This is what Buddha taught about. about how desire, like strong desire or strong resistance are the two [00:20:00]things that cause us to suffer because we're basically saying no to now, like what's happening right now shouldn't be, it's either missing something or it has too much of something. And meditation gets us into the neutrality of seeing things as they are without judgment.

And so that we become more empowered In this moment. So ultimately a lot of what I like to put on the podcast are things that are empowering 

and my top, top, top thing would be start a meditation practice daily. So one of the ways you can start a meditation practice that will be, in my opinion, a more successful way to start is to start out with just a few minutes a day. what happens is you're not going to give yourself too big of a task of meditation for too long.

You just start with a couple of minutes a day. And even with like [00:21:00] five minutes a day, you're still going to get benefits just even with five minutes a day, allowing yourself The opportunity to connect with that divine intelligence, five minutes a day in the beginning. And the thing is, anybody can come up with five minutes a day.

Even if you're extremely busy, you can wake up five minutes earlier and just meditate in the morning. So it's all a perspective. So what happens is when you do five minutes a day, or even a short amount of time daily, every single day, repeatedly, your mind will realize and come to terms with the fact that you now have a new habit and five minutes a day is so doable that you can make it easy to repeat something over and over and over again if it's very short and then your mind will accept it as this new thing.

Once your mind starts to accept it and it becomes more natural and intuitive for you to do, [00:22:00]then You're going to even feel naturally. inclined to increase the time because your mind will start to settle over time and then it's going to want to have more of that quiet and crave it at times. And you're going to feel that it feels really good because it's going to make you feel more clear in your mind.

And you'll find that it also saves you time. So even though you're taking time out to do it, your mind will start to work more efficiently. You'll be more clear minded and more intuitive and more sharp with your work that things that usually took you longer you'll find start to get done faster.

So some of the things that I would suggest if you are new to meditation that are really, really simple is every day find one specific spot in your house. that feels comfortable. It could be a room. It could be something that you're a room that[00:23:00] you're in, but maybe a little corner where you can sit down on a cushion or you could sit down on a chair or a couch anywhere that feels comfortable and quiet.

And you do want to set it up so that you're not going to get interrupted for the time that you're meditating. My suggestion is this, do not do this on your bed because naturally your body associates your bed with sleep and you will fall asleep. Don't get discouraged if you do fall asleep. Sometimes people nod off and then they come back.

That's okay. That's just your nervous system regulating. What I do suggest is regardless if you cross your legs or if you have your feet on the floor, always have your spine erect so that you're not laying down. I also suggest having your hands on your knees and the palms facing up. receiving energy.

And you could choose to focus on a couple of different things. You can choose to focus on your breath. [00:24:00] You could choose to repeat a mantra in your mind, , and you can look up seed mantras,

Which are ancient Sanskrit mantras that have an energetic frequency, even if you're thinking them in your mind.

Or you could literally start to focus on the sensations in your body and scan your body and all the sensations that you're feeling at the present moment. And really bring yourself back to your body and seeing how certain thoughts impact your body and where you're feeling energetically certain emotions, because that brings more consciousness to that area.

You could literally spend a whole five minutes just focusing on the uterus and focusing on that area and really, really putting your consciousness into that. The bottom line is you are finding different ways to anchor yourself into the present moment. So whether it's body sensations or a mantra or just focusing on the breath, all of those things are happening in the now.

So you're training [00:25:00] your mind to focus on the present moment. That being said, you're going to find yourself wandering off and that's perfectly normal and okay. It's part of what you're doing. You're training your consciousness to catch yourself. You're catching and then you're bringing back, catching, bringing back.

So you catch yourself going off, you bring yourself back to whatever it is that anchors you in the present moment.

If you find yourself incredibly uncomfortable, do not let that discourage you. Keep going. It's one of those things. When you first start working out, you're not going to feel really easy. lifting those weights. It's going to be uncomfortable. It's going to be painful. It's going to make you sore for the next couple of days.

It's the same thing. Growth and shifts and changes don't happen easily.

There's got to be some kind of discomfort sometimes, and that's okay. It's being comfortable with the discomfort because If you're allowing yourself to be comfortable with [00:26:00] being uncomfortable, eventually you're going to find that the things that make you uncomfortable in life will not have a hold on you as much.

And you're going to feel more smooth and easy with your energy overall.

And I can say for me personally, meditation has changed my life and I speak to a lot of patients and clients and I see how it impacts them and also impacts their fertility and their menstrual cycle. It's incredible. Meditation is an incredible, incredible free medicine that we all have access to and it is one of the most overlooked things.

Although now, I guess it's becoming a little bit more of a thing of recent times, but I definitely highly suggest if that is something that you've not looked into or if that's something that you thought You just are not meant to do. I really hope that this episode [00:27:00] Shifted your perspective on that and if you have any questions, you can always DM me on Instagram.

I'm always there I'm pretty quick to respond Most times if I can and my handle is at the wholesome lotus fertility So I really hope you enjoyed this episode and I hope you have an amazing day.

EP 294 Does Our Relationship with Our Bodies Impact Fertility | Kathryn Bregman

Kathryn Bregman Ed.S. struggled for years to become pregnant.  She tried every diet, lotion and potion she could find.  She endured two rounds of failed egg retrievals until she realized her body was pristine, but her mind did not feel balanced.  She was suffering from stress and information overload. She was exhausted, defeated and depressed. Even though she was already in therapy, Kathryn hired a fertility mindset coach, which changed everything.  Within 6 months she got pregnant naturally and gave birth to a healthy baby girl at 40. After that, Kathryn made it her mission to spread the word of what she learned to completely transform her outcome. Today she is a Certified Life Coach and a Certified Miracle Minded Master Coach. She's also the only fertility coach in the world who trained directly under Marianne Williamson learning exclusive and cutting-edge coaching techniques. She works with private clients across the globe and runs online group programs where women find the authentic support that they need to become the moms they are meant to be.

You can find out more about Kathryn at: www.badassfertility.com

Instagram: @BadassFertility

Free ebook: https://badassfertility.com/fb-ad-habits/

For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

 Transcript:

Michelle (00:00)

Welcome to the podcast, Catherine.

Kathryn Bregman (00:02)

Hi, thank you so much. I'm so happy to be here. It's an honor to be on your show and speak with you today.

Michelle (00:10)

I'm so happy you're here as well, Catherine, and I'd love for you to share your inspiring story and how you got to do this work.

Kathryn Bregman (00:13)

Thank you.

Absolutely, I would love to share I became inspired to be a fertility coach and work with women who are on the journey to their babies because when I was struggling to become pregnant with my daughter, who I had at 40, after struggling for about four years to conceive, after being advised to use donor different things like that, I realized that a huge, part of my struggle in my journey was, well, there were physical things that I'll talk about in a moment. There was a lot going on in my head space that was a huge block for me because when I first started trying to conceive with my husband, I was 36. We got married, you know, 36, and I was like, already felt behind, you know, was super concerned about.

whether or not we'd be able to conceive. I'd always had like heavy periods, but never been diagnosed with anything in particular. So I felt like nervous and a little wary. And after about trying for just two months or so, we decided to use an ovulation kit. We used an ovulation kit and I got pregnant right away. And I remember thinking, my God, why do people struggle to conceive? Just use an ovulation kit.

Michelle (01:33)

Mm -hmm.

Kathryn Bregman (01:41)

Like it's so simple, hello, right? And then a couple of weeks later, we lost that pregnancy. And I did not get pregnant again for several years, no matter how hard I tried, no matter what we did. And I'll talk kind of briefly about that as And so it was like a famous last words kind of a And...

So after trying for about another year, you know, we did acupuncture, which I love. I'm a huge fan of acupuncture, a huge fan of herbs. I think it was really integral on my journey, but there was more blocking me that I had to get through, right? And so after about a year of trying, you know, naturally and using acupuncture, we were advised to do IVF. And when we went to do IVF, I got like a laundry list of physical ailments that...

were in my way, including a lot of stuff that I'm sure from a traditional Chinese medicine perspective, you would say is like inflammation and gut health, right? But at that point in time, I didn't know that. I just knew like, you have elevated natural killer cells, you have endometriosis, you're pre -diabetic, even though I considered myself like very healthy, very healthy eater, exercised, all those things. It was like I didn't have the right quote unquote health for fertility, right? And so,

Michelle (03:01)

Mm -hmm.

Kathryn Bregman (03:02)

We were advised to go straight to IVF and we did two rounds of egg retrievals. retrieved about three embryos in each, but none of them came back genetically normal after we did genetic testing. So I was pretty devastated at that point, as you can imagine, as anyone who's been on this journey can imagine. We'd been trying at that point for about two years and...

Michelle (03:17)

Mm -hmm.

Kathryn Bregman (03:27)

I was really, I'm like gonna cry talking about this, because I don't usually go into the details, you know, but I was just so lost and filled with shame, fear, self -loathing, you know, you name it. And I started realizing that it was like my mind was a part of the problem. And at that point, I actually started working with a coach who helped me see.

Michelle (03:50)

Mm -hmm.

Kathryn Bregman (03:54)

how mindset was impacting my perception of my entire situation. And I learned to stop being so obsessed with time and stop feeling like I had to rush, rush, rush and like jump into the next egg retrieval and keep going. Because at that point, I think I was probably like 38 getting close to 39. And if you're in the Western medical world, they're like, the clock is ticking every month is gonna decrease your odds.

Michelle (03:59)

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Kathryn Bregman (04:22)

And so I was really had to step back from that mentality and really start to own what was my truth, right? And so I started to look at, okay, what are the things that I have not addressed? Because I felt like I had addressed everything, right? But after that second egg retrieval, I stepped back and said, okay, one thing I've never really done is I've never really, you know, changed my diet. I think my diet's healthy, but maybe there's something else I can do. I've...

Michelle (04:22)

Yeah.

Mm -hmm.

Kathryn Bregman (04:51)

exercise but I do yoga and Pilates and I was advised to do like more high intensity stuff. So I started shifting you know my diet to what would be considered like a more fertility friendly diet. I started finding the reserves within myself to do things that I didn't feel like I could have done before because my mind was in a place to be willing to go there. You know so for me like it really all started in my mind and then I'm gonna wrap up the story because I know we have a lot more.

to talk about, but I want to share that the linchpin for me was I discovered a physical therapy called Wern and it is like an, yeah, it's an external like massage technique almost, but not relaxing, very intense where they go in and they externally break down the abdominal, the tissues in your abdomen that for me were binding my fallopian tubes. And I'd been advised by my clinic, you don't,

Michelle (05:29)

Mm -hmm.

Kathryn Bregman (05:48)

you know, don't do that, it's just a scam, was basically what they said. But in my gut, which...

Michelle (05:50)

Mm -hmm. Yeah. Even though it has research, I know exactly which one you're talking about. They have research, actual papers. Yep.

Kathryn Bregman (05:55)

Yes, yes, it has published. Thank you. It has published medical research. It, you know, and I just instinctively was like, this feels right for me. This feels like part of what's my issue and I want to do it. And because I've been working on my mindset and I was like really practicing, trusting my gut, I was like, I'm doing it. You know, and I remember saying to my husband when we left our IVF clinic, when the doctor had said like, it's a waste of your money. Meanwhile, it's like, you know, an eighth of the price of IVF.

I said to my husband, I was like, I don't care what he says, we're doing it. And that was like a real stance for me. Like I really, you know, stood for something that up until that point, I had been kind of like acquiescing to the experts, you know, like you tell me what to do, you tell me what to do. And finally, I was finding my voice and doing what I felt I needed to do. And I went and I worked with an amazing woman, Susan Winograd.

Michelle (06:27)

Yeah. Yes.

Kathryn Bregman (06:49)

And she, we did this thing at six days, five days, five days, six hours a day of this physical therapy. And the very next cycle, I was pregnant naturally.

Michelle (07:01)

Was that the Wern are you talking about or? Okay.

Kathryn Bregman (07:01)

Yeah, so it's called WURN, it's W -U -R -N, and there's another word for it as clear passage, there you go, yeah, yeah.

Michelle (07:09)

Clear passage. Yeah, yeah. No, I knew clear passage. so Susan was the lady that worked on you.

Kathryn Bregman (07:15)

She was the lady who worked on me, Susan Winograd, and she actually, she works in women's pelvic health. She has a podcast called Pelvicore, and she's an amazing, amazing healer, and she and I worked closely together. It's like, that's it. I was her patient for the week. I went there every day from eight to two or whatever it was, and she did this stuff, and it was very intensive, and it released emotions too. So it wasn't just physical. Yeah, but like -

Michelle (07:18)

Okay. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Right, I've heard that.

Kathryn Bregman (07:45)

childhood memories came back, like trauma came up and things that had been in my body that were literal physical and emotional blocks to my flourishing pelvic And again, for me, like you could say, if only I had done that three years ago, I could have gotten pregnant so much faster. But the truth is I had to be in the right place in my mind in order to even be willing to go there, to do that thing, to...

Michelle (08:09)

Yeah. Right.

Kathryn Bregman (08:14)

get into it as deeply as I did. And so for me, and what I find with the women I work with, you know, it all starts in this willingness to start to see things differently and to understand your journey, you know, as an opportunity to like release old trauma, learn ways that your body wants to flourish and be healthy and not see that as a punishment, but a gift,

Michelle (08:26)

Right. happening for you versus happening to you.

Kathryn Bregman (08:41)

Exactly, exactly, which is like so antithetical to what anybody wants to like think or feel, you know, when they're going through it. But when you start to make that shift, it's empowering. And that's what it was for me. So I got pregnant naturally. I had my daughter right like three days before I turned 40. And...

Michelle (08:48)

Yeah.

Kathryn Bregman (09:02)

I never went back for my third egg retrieval.

Michelle (09:04)

Yeah, that's amazing. That sounds incredible. And I want to go back to when you were going through it, you know, because a lot of people go through the different phases, just like you said, people need to be ready to know that they want like something different. And so when you were in it, when you were like really in it, like knee deep thick, you know, what were the things that you were telling yourself?

Kathryn Bregman (09:23)

Yes.

Hmm, good question. I was filled with fear that it would never happen. So I would look at my friends who have kids, none of whom had struggled the way that I was struggling, and think, you know, it's not like literally in words I would say they're better than me, but I felt shame.

Michelle (09:49)

Mm -hmm.

Kathryn Bregman (10:00)

Like I felt embarrassed. I felt like I didn't want to share what I was going through. Like for the first time, I couldn't be vulnerable with my friends who, you know, I would say up until that point, I had probably told everything that happened in my life. And I just couldn't share it because it was so, you know, for lack of a better word, like embarrassing. Even though now on the other side of it, you know, I can stand here and be like,

Michelle (10:01)

Mm. Mm -hmm.

Kathryn Bregman (10:27)

There's nothing to be ashamed of. It's not, you know, it's not embarrassing, but when you're in it as a woman, it's a very different thing than anything I had gone through before.

Michelle (10:32)

Mm -hmm.

Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, it's interesting how we make meaning of it when you're going through it. But even though it's not like based in absolute truth, it's not true. We know that. It still feels true when you're going through it and it still feels like very real.

Kathryn Bregman (10:47)

Yeah.

Yeah, and I think about, you know, up until that point, I never realized how much motherhood defines us in our culture as women, you know, and whether we even want to be moms or don't. Just the idea of making that choice, quote unquote, right? Like that in itself is like putting you in a box. Do you have kids or do you not have kids? What does that say about you as a woman? And I think, you know, I felt...

Michelle (11:10)

Mm -hmm.

Right. Yes.

Kathryn Bregman (11:30)

inferior as a woman. Like I was failing my husband, you know, that I was, you know, I even questioned like, would he be better off with someone who, who was fertile, you know, like, and, and we just, and he's, he's like my soulmate partner, you know? So to question oneself on that level just shows like how deep that like,

Michelle (11:46)

Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Kathryn Bregman (11:58)

yearning for children is and how complicated it becomes when we struggle to make that dream come true emotionally, you know, not just physically.

Michelle (12:09)

Yeah, I hear that a lot. I hear that a lot from my patients and the people I work with is, you know, that's my one job as a woman, like that kind of like that repeated thought pattern. And, really sad to see, you know, people going through that and really like, and even when they're saying that they're like, I know it's not fully true. I know that that's not the truth that I'm not broken. Like they know that, but they still struggle with feeling that.

Kathryn Bregman (12:14)

Yeah. Yeah. Right.

Exactly, exactly. And that's the thing that we really work on in the BFP, which is the group program that I run. We look at the thoughts and the feelings and the actions. And when feelings come up, like I feel inferior, right? What are the thoughts that then come into your mind? And how does that affect what you're willing to do or not willing to do in order to become pregnant?

Michelle (12:50)

Mm -hmm.

Right. Definitely. And so when you were talking about blocks also in your body or blocks emotionally that were impacting your body, did you ever feel or get to this place where you can actually feel that in your body? I'm sure during the clear passage was probably something that awoke in a lot of it to you, but like, were there times where you literally felt it in your body?

Kathryn Bregman (13:32)

felt like when you say that like blocks or like energetic blocks or yeah.

Michelle (13:34)

Yes, like blocks, energetic blocks or emotions. Were you ever able to make the connection of how that felt in your body?

Kathryn Bregman (13:43)

interesting question. I mean, I think that...

I know, like, I don't know if this exactly answers it, but what's kind of coming to mind for me when you say that is I think about my lifelong relationship with my period. And I know that for most of my life, you know, it was heavy and crampy, and I really kind of resented it. You know, I had a very...

Michelle (13:58)

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Kathryn Bregman (14:12)

like almost animosity towards my period because it seemed like it would disrupt my life. It would throw me off. You know, I would have always taking like a lot of my doll or whatever to manage it. And, you know, it wasn't until I started trying to become pregnant that I realized that that whole entire that experience is imbalanced, right? And that that wasn't actually necessary. And that, you know, if I'd met someone like you, I could have healed that so much sooner, you know.

Michelle (14:34)

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Kathryn Bregman (14:42)

And so even though I don't know if that's really a block, but I know that I feel like that resentment towards my period was also rooted in some other feelings about being a woman, about being a woman and being like as a vulnerable, disempowering experience as opposed to a powerful one. So.

Michelle (14:58)

Mm -hmm. Right. Right.

Kathryn Bregman (15:07)

Those things that are most vital to our experience of our femininity, our ability to procreate, our ability to embrace our sensuality, our ability to, you know, really express our feminine side and use it as a source of power. For me, I was always like, it was always in my way. You know, it was always like a hindrance as opposed to a powerful tool. Yeah.

Michelle (15:12)

Mm -hmm. Mm, yeah.

That's interesting. You know, as you're talking, I'm thinking like it's really, it comes down to our relationship with our body. And it's often something that because it's like anything that's really mindset, I find that it's very hard for people to really wrap their minds around literally. Because it's, it's abstract. And it's something that sort of is in the background and we can't really touch it and feel it. I mean, we can feel it, but

Kathryn Bregman (15:41)

Yeah.

Michelle (16:01)

It's, it's a little bit more abstract in the sense that we have to concentrate to feel it. Because when we're distracted with outside world, we're not going to really become aware of it until something hits us. And they were like, wait, wait, something's off. And that's, I always say that that's your higher intelligence speaking with you. So like symptoms, things that come up, difficulties in life. any kind of resistance really where life resists you or you feel resistance towards life.

And of course it's like every action has the opposite reaction. So you feel like life is doing that to you. And sometimes it's a reflection of, of some kind of inner turmoil that's happening. And so it's kind of like a diagnosis of sorts, you know, obviously this isn't a technical diagnosis. I just want to get a throw. I'm not saying this literally, but like in a sense of, just really coming in and tuning in, like what is happening? Is there disharmony happening within me, within my life?

Kathryn Bregman (16:35)

Yeah. Yeah. Again.

Right. Yeah.

Michelle (16:59)

And that is the great intelligence. And it's actually such an amazing aspect of our life, like our body's symptom, all of those things. It really shows us so much about our inner terrain.

Kathryn Bregman (17:03)

Exactly.

It really does. And I think that, you know, reproduction is one of the most amazing, like, synthesises of the mind and the body. You know, like, it's not like if you have a broken arm, you know, there's like a very obvious problem. But when you're talking about something like fertility, you know, what I found in my experience, and I'm sure you've seen this and I see it with the women I work with, it's like,

Michelle (17:29)

Yeah. Mm -hmm.

Kathryn Bregman (17:46)

It's so multi -layered, you know? And for every woman, it's going to have, yeah, like these different components to it based on her own experiences, her own physicality, her own history in every part of herself, her emotional, her physical, her spiritual being, you know? And I think that until I was able to step back and really, like,

Michelle (17:49)

yeah, big time.

Mm -hmm.

Kathryn Bregman (18:15)

embrace all of that until I could see it as not just a physical ailment, but as a more like complex representation of me and not be intimidated by that, but like energized by it. You know, then I was able to really like make headway in my journey. And that's what I've seen with so many of the women I work with is like, once you can start to see this as not a punishment, you know, like we're saying, or,

Michelle (18:25)

Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

Kathryn Bregman (18:44)

a problem to be fixed, but rather like you said, symptoms that are showing us what's happening within us and how we can take action to heal ourselves.

Michelle (18:56)

Mm -hmm.

It's interesting because there's so much choice in that. And sometimes we don't feel like we have a choice when we're in these really difficult things, we're like, well, you know, look what's happening. And we feel like we don't have a choice, which is a natural, it's, it's, it's all a progression. But then sometimes when you do actually realize and become aware of your own relationship with what's happening.

Kathryn Bregman (19:02)

Yeah.

Michelle (19:26)

It feels at first like you're admitting defeat.

Kathryn Bregman (19:29)

Yeah.

Michelle (19:30)

but it could be the single most powerful empowering thing you can do.

Kathryn Bregman (19:35)

Exactly, exactly. It's so true. It's so true. And I love that you said that. Like it feels like you're admitting defeat, but it's actually the most empowering thing you can do. And I think that if you just stop at the defeat part, you are defeated, right? But if you can see beyond that and be like, wait, there's so much that's actually there to support my shift.

Michelle (19:54)

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Kathryn Bregman (20:04)

then like a whole new world can open up and you know, your fertility can just become boundless.

Michelle (20:12)

Yes. Yeah. I have one specific patient in mind and she has insulin resistance and wants to work on the baby and got a negative pregnancy test. So she was really upset. And so, and it was early on in our working together. And I'm thinking, you know, I wanted to shift sort of the perspective that,

You got to take care of yourself. You got to take care of your body. You got to work on that. Like, yes, baby is a beautiful thing and that's what we want, of course, but it's really about you and taking care of yourself and nourishing yourself and that extra added stress of demanding something from your body when your body is like screaming out for help. You know, so it's kind of like re -shifting. Let's take it one step at a time and like,

Kathryn Bregman (20:45)

Yes. Yes.

Michelle (20:59)

really bring it back to the nurturing that your body's thirsting for. Sometimes it's a little shift in perspective that at first feels like, this isn't exactly what I came for. I came for this, but ultimately it's that shift in perspective that our bodies are trying to communicate with us.

Kathryn Bregman (21:21)

That's so true, it's so true. And I think that that's where, you know, when we can release our like death grip on time, because so often, it doesn't even matter the age. Like I've worked with women who were 28 who were worried about the clock. And I've worked with women who are 43 who are worried about the clock, you know? So it's like, it doesn't even matter what age you are, somehow in our minds we're like, it has to happen, you know, or it's never gonna happen. And that fear is actually, you know,

Michelle (21:29)

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Yeah.

It's a state of mind. Yes. Yeah.

Kathryn Bregman (21:51)

creating more stress and contributing to perpetuating that state of imbalance, you know, whatever the state of imbalance is within one's body. So I think that, you know, you're right when you're saying like it's about nurturing yourself and supporting whatever is, you know, not functioning optimally because then you're going to get to that place where you can really bring in a baby.

Michelle (21:53)

Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Kathryn Bregman (22:18)

And that's a mental and physical shift that has to happen because you have to be willing, you know, mentally, emotionally to, and I don't like, whenever I say let go, I feel like people misinterpret that as saying like, don't do anything. Yeah, and it's not, like it's such a.

Michelle (22:18)

Mm -hmm. Yeah.

or don't care. Yeah, right. I totally understand what you're saying.

Kathryn Bregman (22:40)

Yeah, it's like that nuanced understanding, like letting go doesn't even mean no longer trying. It just means like, it's so hard to put in. Yeah, yeah.

Michelle (22:43)

Yes.

Right. Finding flow, it's finding flow. So it's interesting because like, you know, you're on the right path when it feels a little more effortless. And I know it sounds and I think it's the belief that gets in the way, our belief and our conditioning that we cannot get to something that we really want unless we work hard.

Kathryn Bregman (22:59)

Yes! Yes, yes, exactly.

Michelle (23:11)

And that's just a conditioning view. If you recognize that that is just how you've been conditioned to believe, then it's like all of a sudden, my God, I don't have to suffer. And actually, the more peace and the more good you feel, you know you're on the right path.

Kathryn Bregman (23:18)

Yeah.

Yeah, exactly. That is exactly, exactly it. And that conditioning is so interesting because I think, you know, kind of like going back to what we were saying earlier, we have these thoughts and beliefs that we don't really realize we have internalized and that drive a lot of our thinking and decision making. And they really become obvious, I think, on the fertility journey, if you're trying for something and it's not happening. So.

Michelle (23:30)

Yeah. Yes.

Kathryn Bregman (23:56)

that idea that like we have to suffer in order to get what we want is so deeply ingrained in our psyche that we don't even realize we're doing it. You know, like we just think that.

Michelle (24:01)

Yeah. Right. We don't even realize it's not true. Like we don't even question it.

Kathryn Bregman (24:12)

Exactly. Exactly. And if you can't question it or see it, you have no ability to separate from it and step out of it. You know, right. Yeah. So that's I know. I know. I know. And it never ends like, you know, you just it's just like this lifelong practice, you know, and that's also why I think of the fertility journey as a gift, because.

Michelle (24:23)

100%. Yeah. It's pretty wild. Right. It never ends.

Kathryn Bregman (24:40)

it really brings home these principles that are true in so many aspects of our lives and gives you this opportunity to learn them and then use them when you become a mom, and use them going forward. So I think everyone I know who's gone through this and then come out on the other side is always grateful for it. And as much as that's a hard thing to see at the time, I...

Michelle (24:51)

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

It is. Yeah. And it's interesting because you hear people like the sort of the argument against it. Well, I didn't ask to like better myself right now. I didn't ask to be put into this situation. And I get that. however, it doesn't necessarily have to do just with a fertility journey. This is the human condition. This is life. And you know what, when we don't bring that awareness, it's going to creep up other places. It just, that's the way it is. It's the nature. Yeah.

Kathryn Bregman (25:15)

Right. Yes. Yes.

Exactly, exactly, exactly. We don't choose our challenges, you know, but we choose how we handle them. We choose how we go through them. We choose how we live through them. And that's can be a very empowering thing.

Michelle (25:39)

Yeah.

Yeah, it can be for sure. And of course, again, like, you know, there's no perfect way to do this either. And I kind of want to throw that out there. Like there's no perfect way. It's just really connecting with yourself. Your higher wisdom is actually customized specifically for you, perfectly for you. And that's what it is, is that there's no perfect standard, but it's your perfect standard, like whatever it is that works for you, that aligns with you. And

Kathryn Bregman (25:57)

Yes.

Michelle (26:17)

you know, connects with your nature.

Kathryn Bregman (26:19)

Absolutely, absolutely. I love hearing you say that. You know, just it resonates for me so much and I love our conversation. I feel like every time I talk to you, I just learn more and it's so grounding. There's something about your presence is just very like soothing. So I think, yeah.

Michelle (26:37)

thank you. Well, I love, I love your input too, because I feel like we're definitely on the same track. And it's just really interesting because, again, it's something that is so, it seems to be kind of behind the scenes. So when you were going through this and you finally said, okay, let me get into my body and like really acknowledge how my mind is working, the thoughts that I'm thinking.

Kathryn Bregman (26:52)

Mm.

Michelle (27:04)

How did you get started? Because I know that when you're in it and you're really in the thick of the emotion, it can be very overwhelming. How do you get to the place where you separate from what you've identified with for so long?

Kathryn Bregman (27:17)

It's a good question. I really, it was a process and I started by really just bringing in more forms of support. So like I had said earlier, I started with acupuncture and herbs and then I moved on and at a certain point I was like, I need to go to therapy. I need to.

Michelle (27:41)

Mm -hmm.

Kathryn Bregman (27:44)

Like I started realizing that there were things that had happened in my childhood that could be blocking me. For example, my father passed away when I was two. And yeah, and my whole life I was like, you know, I sort of told the narrative of like, you were too young to be affected by it, right? And so I grew up with this belief, like I was too young to be affected by it. But what I realized was that,

Michelle (27:51)

Mm -hmm. wow. Yeah.

Kathryn Bregman (28:11)

it was playing a role in my fear of conceiving. There was something there about birth and death that was scary to me, and I needed to unpack that. And so going to therapy and looking at just the various relationships in my life and becoming more aware of my physical body too. I went to a somatic therapist and we would do stuff like...

Michelle (28:15)

Mm -hmm. Mm.

Kathryn Bregman (28:38)

you know, this emotion is coming up, where do you feel it inside? And becoming more aware of the signals that my internal self was giving me about how I actually felt about things rather than like the stories I was always telling in my mind, you know, that maybe weren't even true. So really finding more ways to connect with my truth and, you know, seeking out other forms of support. I mean, I was like for sure.

Michelle (28:54)

Mm -hmm.

Kathryn Bregman (29:06)

addicted to Dr. Google, you know, like I was constantly like researching whatever I could. And I think that absolutely there were times when that was unhelpful, like Googling, you know, signs of implantation, like 10 times a day for two weeks before my period, every month, knowing that I'd read the same thing over and over again, and knowing that like, I knew it all and I didn't need to do it, but versus...

Michelle (29:08)

Mm -hmm. Yep. Mm -hmm.

Kathryn Bregman (29:33)

Googling in a way that was really helpful where I found clear passage, you know and knew instinctively like this is for me, you know, so I feel it Yeah, I feel it and then because I was doing the therapy and I was listening to podcasts and I worked with a coach I actually did therapy and coaching because they're different, you know, like one was about my past and the other was about How do you want to live right now? Who do you want to be going forward?

Michelle (29:39)

Mm -hmm, right. Yeah, you feel it.

Mm -hmm, mm -hmm.

Right.

Kathryn Bregman (30:01)

So, and even as I say this, I'm like, people must be like, this woman is out of her mind. Like, how did she do? Why did she do all these things, you know? But at the end of the day, you've got to. Yes, thank you. You know, because I think that we have to take this opportunity of struggling to conceive and treat it like the opportunity that it is and that it can be and leverage those resources, bring on.

Michelle (30:02)

Yes.

sure everybody's relating though. I feel like everybody's relating to this. Yeah.

Kathryn Bregman (30:31)

board, the experts who know how to help you uncover the blocks, whether they are emotional, rooted in your past, in your body, all of those things combined because really at the end of the day, more and more, I think we find they're all connected. But needing to look at the different entry points to uprooting the blocks, which is going to be different for each person.

So really like doing all of those things in combination with each other over time. And one thing I will say too, about like four or five months before I conceived, my husband and I went to a five days silent meditation retreat, which, my gosh, yeah, I recommend it for everyone. I would love to do it again someday.

Michelle (31:20)

I want to do that so bad.

My husband wouldn't survive though, because he talks so much.

Kathryn Bregman (31:31)

It's like a strange experience as a couple because like you kind of want to communicate but you can't talk, you know, so it's like it's a strange dynamic but it was so good and so powerful and it set the tone for me to start doing like a mindfulness meditation practice every morning for just five minutes and I really found that that five minutes and then over time, you know, my practice has evolved but just that five minutes.

Michelle (31:49)

Mm -hmm.

Kathryn Bregman (31:58)

is like the foundation for me of finding that connection to my inner self, setting myself up for the day to respond to that inner voice, to hear it and to trust it. And that was transformational. You know, it gave me like a good foundation in that experience to then carry it on in this small but consistent way.

Michelle (32:03)

Hmm.

Right.

Kathryn Bregman (32:25)

that I think really, I know has had a deep impact then and continues to now.

Michelle (32:30)

I love that you mentioned that because I happen to be a huge fan of meditation and mindfulness. It is the key. And you know what I love about what you just said? It was only five minutes a day. It's just give yourself, even if five minutes a day, like put it this way, when you charge your phone, even five minutes is going to juice it up and you're going to get something right. And it's kind of like downloading that software from cosmic.

Kathryn Bregman (32:35)

Yeah. Yes, it's like the key, you know, it really is.

Yes! Yes! Yes!

Michelle (32:59)

intelligence. And that's how I see it. It's just giving your mind, body, and soul an opportunity to download that intelligence.

Kathryn Bregman (33:09)

Absolutely. I agree 100%. I know that it's true in my own experience. And you know, when I was...

Michelle (33:15)

Most people are the people that I'm sorry to interrupt you, but I have to say this. The only people that will totally understand what I'm saying are the people who have practiced.

Kathryn Bregman (33:25)

Yeah, it's true because once you do it, it is one of those things that like you have to experience it to know. And it's not like some big secret, anyone can do it, you know? And it's really just about sitting down and I do this, you know, again with the women in the BFP because I'm like, this is what's going to help us step away from that inner chatter and all the negative voices that are telling you.

Michelle (33:48)

Mm -hmm.

Kathryn Bregman (33:50)

you waited too long, it's never gonna happen. It can happen for other people, but not for you. Whatever those voices are, this is the tool to learn that they're not you. That there's some other part of you that is more authentic, that's connected to your real truth, which is that you know in your heart, you are meant to be a mom. And that that baby is calling you. And that's why you're even.

Michelle (33:55)

Mm -hmm.

Yes.

Kathryn Bregman (34:17)

going through all this stuff to begin with because it's meant for you. But all of those voices in your head are gonna take over unless you learn to connect and listen to the softer, more still voice within. And I'll just say too, I think that that five minutes a day is so key because we often make it really complicated and like, well, how, I can't do that, other people can do that, yeah, or.

Michelle (34:21)

Right.

All or nothing.

Kathryn Bregman (34:45)

Well, my voice was going the whole time, so what was the point? But, you know, I always tell people, like, if your voice is going the whole time that you're breathing mindfully and you became aware of the fact that your voice was going the whole time, you just separated yourself from that voice. Like, that is the point. The point is to see it.

Michelle (35:00)

Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm. Right, right. It's not to stop the thoughts, but it's to watch it, to become aware.

Kathryn Bregman (35:09)

Right. Yeah. Yes, to become aware of it. And I studied my coaching, my coaching background. I trained with Marianne Williamson and she, she's amazing. And that was a life -changing experience. And I really take to heart. She always said five minutes a day, five minutes a day is all you need. You know, so I'm like, okay, I can say it with confidence because that's what I've been taught, you know, and I know from myself, it's true.

Michelle (35:21)

It's so awesome. Yeah.

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Yep. Yeah. yeah. And I actually sometimes I'll even say start with two minutes a day. Because if you repeat that, if you repeat that in the beginning, then you're like, OK, your mind accepts the fact that this is part of your practice. And then naturally, you're going to want to extend it. You're going to be like, OK, this is too little. Let me just do a little more. And then you'll you'll find that you're you know, you're almost like, you know how they say, like, if you don't drink a lot of water, you sort of suppress that thirst.

Kathryn Bregman (35:43)

Yeah. Yup.

Yes. Yeah.

Michelle (36:06)

And then you don't feel thirsty anymore. And then the more you start drinking water, the more you awaken that thirst. It's the same thing with meditation. And meditation is for everybody. We are wired to do it just like we are all wired to sleep. We are all wired to pee and poop and eat. And, you know, it's like part of, it's just part of what resonates and works with us as humans.

Kathryn Bregman (36:12)

Yes. Love.

Yep, absolutely, absolutely.

Michelle (36:32)

And so what words of wisdom or tips would you give people who really are finding themselves lost? And we've all been there. We've all been there with different things and different times of our life where we get so sucked into how we're feeling and the emotions can be so hard to remove yourself from. So if somebody's really going through it right now or just like coming back from the doctor and getting bad news and really getting in their heads, what advice would you give them?

Kathryn Bregman (37:01)

That's a good question. I would say that...

If you look to examples of women who have defied statistics, beaten the odds that they were given, who've become pregnant despite their struggles, know that they are not any different from you. You have the same capacity within yourself to bring home your baby.

And if you trust the inner wisdom within you, which may sound elusive or confusing, but take it in small steps, one baby step at a time, you will get there. You absolutely, 100 % will get there.

Michelle (37:49)

Amazing. Those are powerful words, Catherine. So for people who would like to work with you, like what do you offer and how can they reach you?

Kathryn Bregman (37:59)

Yeah, absolutely. The best way to reach out to me is actually to find me on Instagram at Badass Fertility. It's my handle, so. Badass Fertility, thank you. And you can always DM me directly. I'm on there all the time and love to go back and forth. I have a podcast, the Badass Fertility podcast. So if you like listening today, that's a great way to hear me weekly. And then I run group programs for women who.

Michelle (38:08)

I love that.

Kathryn Bregman (38:28)

who can come together. And a lot of the tools that I'm talking about here, we use in a variety of contexts. And I also work with women one -on -one. So if you are interested in either of those options, you can always reach out to me on Instagram for information or go to my website, badassfertility .com.

Michelle (38:48)

Awesome. And I will have all of these links in the episode notes if anybody wants to find Catherine, I love talking to you. I felt like that the first time we talked, you're you are a badass woman, a badass coach, and I'm so happy we connected. Thank you so much for coming on today.

Kathryn Bregman (39:05)

Me too. Thank you so much. I love all the work that you do. I just, I love your book, by the way. Amazing, amazing book. It's such a gift to the world. So thank you. It's an honor to be here today.

Michelle (39:12)

thank you.

EP 293 Ozempic Babies, Miscarriages, & All Things IVF with Dr. Armando Hernandez-Rey

Dr. Armando Hernandez-Rey is Conceptions Florida’s medical director and triple-board certified in Reproductive Endocrinology and Infertility; Obstetrics and Gynecology; and Surgery. Dr. Armando Hernandez-Rey has over 24 years of experience in the medical field. He graduated from Universidad Autonoma de Ciencias Médicas de Centro America in 1998. He attended medical school at the University of Miami Miller School of Medicine for his specialization in Obstetrics and Gynecology. He specializes in treating patients with polycystic ovary syndrome (PCOS), recurrent pregnancy loss (miscarriage), and severe endometriosis. He is especially interested in fertility preservation (eggfreezing) for patients who must delay childbearing for personal or medical reasons, including cancer and systemic lupus erythematosus. Dr. Hernandez-Rey is an assistant clinical professor at the Herbert Wertheim College of Medicine at Florida International University and serves as an ad-hoc reviewer for the prestigious peer-reviewed journal, Fertility and Sterility. He has also published several articles and chapters in medical literature.

• Website

• https://www.conceptionsflorida.com

• Instagram

• https://www.instagram.com/conceptionsflorida/

• Facebook

• https://www.facebook.com/conceptionsfl

• Tiktok

• https://www.tiktok.com/@conceptionsflorida

For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook:https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

Transcript:

Michelle (00:00)

Welcome to the podcast, Dr. Hernandez -Ray.

Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (00:04)

Thank you, Michelle. Thanks for the invitation. It's really an honor and a privilege to be on your show, on your podcast.

Michelle (00:09)

Yes, well, I've heard a lot about you over the years because I've had a lot of patients go to you. And one of the things that I've heard is that you do really well with surgeries and fibroids and you're able to in and

but in a way that still preserves fertility. So that was one of the things that I've learned.

Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (00:32)

Well, reproductive endocrinology and infertility as a subspecialty is a surgical subspecialty as is OB -GYN, which is a mandatory path to get to the infertility route. Unfortunately, a lot of the newer generation is not operating because they're not taught, not through no fault of their own, they're not taught. The reality is that it is...

Michelle (00:47)

Mm -hmm.

Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (00:55)

for a myriad of reasons this phenomenon has happened. Number one, the minimally invasive surgery tract has been developed where you have the person who's really just really perfected their obstetrical skills. And then you have the gynecologic oncology route and the pelvic urogynecology or pelvic reconstruction route and the minimally invasive surgical route. And a lot of the reproductive endocrinologists,

have said, you know what, I'm going to forego surgery and I'm going to refer it out. My personal philosophy, and this is in no way critical to absolutely anybody, it's just my own, is that I went into medicine to be a surgeon, I actually wanted to be an orthopedic surgeon. I ended up not liking it, I had a very bad fracture when I was in my teens playing competitive soccer, and I really had some PTSD from that fracture, so I just couldn't see myself doing.

orthopedic surgery, but I somehow found my way towards OBGYN, absolutely loved it. And eventually towards the reproductive endocrinology route, which encompasses a lot of surgery, should you allow it. And so yes, like you said, fibroids are an important part of fertility. you, tubal reconstruction used to be much more important than it is now. People are more, are bypassing that route and going directly to in vitro fertilization.

Endometriosis, as I said, I was running a little bit late today. I was in a very, very complex endometriosis case with a patient with bilateral endometriomas and complete frozen pelvis and scar tissue. And, you know, just a little bit longer, I had to work with the colorectal surgeons to do some resection of the colon because it was, you know, endometriosis is such an awful, awful disease. So yes, to answer your question, I...

Michelle (02:41)

Yeah.

Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (02:44)

Absolutely love surgery. I think it's an integral part of the infertility journey to get a patient from being infertile to getting them to a high level of success with any sort of treatment. And hopefully it's more conservative than having to resort to artificial insemination or in vitro and with just surgery and corrective surgery, we can help the couple achieve a pregnancy.

Michelle (03:07)

Yeah, and I think it's important because I think that a lot of people might not realize that there are certain people that specialize in this or have experience doing that, doing surgery and really getting in there because it is important to find somebody who's specialized if you have a complicated case.

Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (03:23)

I think it's important. I think people feel well taken care of. Again, my perception, people feel well taken care of when everything is done in house. Meaning, you know, there's no messages that get lost as you refer a patient out who may have the minimally invasive surgery knowledge, but not necessarily the focus on infertility, reproductive endocrinology.

Michelle (03:33)

Mm -hmm.

Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (03:50)

specialist has and I think people feel comfortable with that.

Michelle (03:52)

Yeah, absolutely. Because there's some people that will take out fibroids, but they're not doing it with fertility in mind. You know, for many women, it could just be just taking out fibroids, but you're doing these things with fertility in mind.

Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (04:07)

There are many great surgeons out there that are not infertility specialists. You know, I want to make sure that I'm clear. I just think that I was, I always love surgery. I happen to do surgery and I feel my patients feel very comfortable with me doing the surgery and not being referred out. It's what I think. You know, the journey, the infertility journey is very complex. It requires a lot of a woman in particular more than the male and to be

Michelle (04:25)

Yeah.

Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (04:36)

you know, passed around, it gets complicated. And I think it's nice to be able to offer that service to patients.

Michelle (04:44)

Yeah, for sure. And then you do specialize in miscarriages.

Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (04:49)

Sure, I mean, I think we all really have a focus on on as you know, we're all specialized in miscarriages and and PCOS and all that there's some people that tend to see More miscarriage patients or they people will refer miscarriage patients to us We have a particular kind of focus on that, you know, I think a lot of it is

genetic, a lot of it is immunologic, a lot of it is just taking a holistic approach to things and not just focusing on one or the more common causes of infertility. And even now, I think that, you know, the use of supplements, which maybe 15 years ago was maybe considered some snake oil. Now, I think there's a lot of provocative data that has shown that supplements do work, in particular in

Michelle (05:18)

Mm -hmm.

Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (05:44)

cases with recurrent miscarriage. And now we have the ability to measure those levels and we are now ability to supplement those levels and they have tremendous impact positively on these patients.

Michelle (05:57)

And what supplements have you seen help with miscarriages?

Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (06:02)

Well, I think a lot of it has to do with what the cause of the miscarriages is. Oftentimes, believe it or not, miscarriages can alluded to fibroids, it could be anatomical, sub -mucosal myoma. Well, there's not gonna be any supplement that's gonna help with that. It's just purely the surgical route or the diminished ovarian reserve,

Michelle (06:07)

Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (06:29)

cause for recurrent miscarriages, which is older women or ovaries that are behaving or eggs that are behaving older than what their chronological age would dictate, you have a higher chance for aneuploidy. And in those cases, there's a variable cocktail of supplements that we use, including ubiquinol, including N -acetylcysteine, including vitamin E, even melatonin has been shown to be very, very effective. And I can go on and on, even alpha lipoic acid.

Michelle (06:50)

Mm -hmm.

Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (06:57)

as well. There's some very nice studies coming out of Mayo Clinic that have shown that aflalipoic acid is very, very good for recurrent miscarriages. So again, things that we thought were, well, they can't hurt, now we know that they absolutely help.

Michelle (06:57)

Yeah.

Right. Yeah. I mean, that's great because it just helps to know that there's something that people can do that really does make a difference. And it's not just like in theory with miscarriages when it comes to immunology. I'd love to talk about that because I know that that's a big one. Actually, I did see a study that showed that women who have are more sexually active, that their immune system calms down. It behaves differently in the luteal phase.

Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (07:31)

Mm -hmm.

Michelle (07:44)

so that it's able to receive life so that it's not seeing like the sperm as an invader the, yeah.

Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (07:50)

So women that are more sexually active than others, it's probably a function of repeated antigen exposure, which is the more the woman is exposed to the antigens of the sperm, more there becomes an acquiescence by the immune system to be more receptive of that embryo. Because remember, the embryo is

Michelle (08:06)

Mm -hmm.

Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (08:19)

a haplotype, meaning it's half female, half the woman, half the mother, and half the male. And the only genes that the immune system of the mother has got to harbor the pregnancy are her own. And so oftentimes the immunologic processes are heightened because it does not recognize the male antigens that are formed part of the embryo in general. But as a whole, I mean, recurrent pregnancy loss,

Michelle (08:33)

Mm -hmm. Right.

Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (08:47)

is, is a small portion of the general population and, it's skewed towards advanced maternal age and advanced paternal age. so the immunologic component, while absolutely important, I think it's the one where we're still not a hundred percent sure how to absolutely treat it. Although supplementation and.

immune suppression definitely are known to work. It's the testing that I think we still need a lot more work in doing because you know people talk about NK cells and you know that was part of my thesis when I was a fellow. So we talk about NK cells and ANA and antiphospholipids and all of that and the reality is that these tests have very very

poor sensitivity in the realm of immunologic infertility or reproductive immunology. And so you may have COVID and then you can test positive or lightly positive for NK cells. And so I think that the overwhelming response by the treating physician is, well, they're positive, they must be immunologically incapable of handling a pregnancy. So therefore we should treat.

Michelle (09:40)

Mm -hmm.

Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (10:04)

with nowadays what we use as intralipids. Back in the day, we used to use IVIG that has kind of fallen by the wayside a little bit. I think it's better to treat empirically than to have someone treat or test for all of these different immune markers that really, really in the presence of immunology and reproductive immunology,

They have very low sensitivity. Now if you're treating or you're looking for lupus or rheumatoid arthritis or mixed collagen disorder or Sjogren's for sure, they are your go -tos every single time.

Michelle (10:44)

And what about a PRP for ovaries? What has do you do offer that?

Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (10:50)

ovaries. American study of reproductive medicine came out with a black box warning that they do not recommend PRP for ovaries. Now, PRP for recurrent implantation failure, poor lining development, there is some very robust data that there may be some room or benefit for this.

Michelle (10:57)

okay.

Mm -hmm.

Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (11:14)

And we do do offer that. We do not offer intra ovarian PRP because ASRM has a huge black box warning on this. It's a liability. The potential for infection is there. Tubo ovarian abscess have been reported, adhesions, periovarian adhesions, and with very little to no benefit whatsoever. I mean, the whole premise for it is that we are...

Michelle (11:16)

Okay.

wow, okay, I didn't know that.

Mm -hmm.

Okay, got it.

Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (11:42)

regenerating the follicle complex and therefore improving egg quality and that definitively has not been shown to be the case. Although anybody who suffers from that as I would be would be like, slide me up. But unfortunately, you know, it's very easy for us to fall prey to things that we desperately want without having the medical literature to corroborate it or back it up.

Michelle (11:49)

Got it.

Right.

Got it. So that's actually showing to not necessarily be what a lot of people originally thought, but for the uterus, it has been shown to help.

Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (12:15)

Yes, we are doing PRP installations and very select group of women with those diagnoses in particular. And.

Michelle (12:25)

So who would be a good candidate? Somebody who's had failed transfers, inflammation.

Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (12:30)

Yes, someone with very high quality embryos, high quality embryos that are not getting pregnant. Also patients, for example, patients who have adenomyosis that do not develop a nice lining, a thickened lining. Those have been shown. Our numbers are very small, you know, by no means.

Michelle (12:42)

Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (12:53)

they are in the realm of what a randomized controlled trial should be. We're following the data from the randomized controlled trials and from the literature that's out there. So patients with adenomyosis who have poor lining development, recurrent implantation failure, so patients with euploid embryos, that means a normal embryo that's tested that looks to be high quality. Also, after a second implantation failure, we'll...

offer that to the patient as a possibility.

Michelle (13:19)

Mm hmm. Got it. Awesome. And then also we were talking about Ozempic pre -talk. So I'd love to get your... Yes. Yeah. Ozempic babies.

Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (13:24)

the topic du jour these days, right?

It's right. So as we were discussing, I mean, this, this phenomena is not really a phenomenon that's surprising at all. It is just a, a byproduct, a side effect of, of how the medication works and the effects that positive effects that I have on women with in particular, and ambulatory disorders, specifically polycystic ovarian syndrome, which is often tied to or associated with insulin resistance, obesity, sometimes even overt.

type 2 diabetes and the elevated levels of insulin, the elevated testosterone levels, they all work together to create this sort of environment within the ovary and the system of the female which creates an ovulatory disorder or dysfunction. And as a woman loses weight by virtue of the way that these GLP1s or glucocortes

Michelle (13:58)

Mm -hmm.

Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (14:22)

Glucagon like peptides work They're very successful. They're very good at number one slowing gastric emptying which in turn slows down the release of sugar into the blood system to the Number one number two it stops the the release of glucose produced by the liver and Number three increases insulin levels so increase insulin levels helps get the the

the sugar into the muscles out of the circulation and out of stimulating the ovaries and the theca cells to produce more androgens which then get produced produce more estrogen which then stops the hypothalamic pituitary ovarian axis from functioning correctly and as these levels drop patients automatically begin to have spontaneous ovulation if the system is working and the male has normal sperm and they're sexually active.

this is how the ozempic baby phenomena occurs. And what we discussed also is that the concern is of the downstream consequences of ozempic babies given that the current recommendations are to have at least a two month washout period before anybody starts to try to conceive.

Michelle (15:32)

So two month washout means like really not trying anything. Yeah. And then also, I know like naturally, myonocytol is really helpful as well for insulin resistance. It might take a little longer. And then also metformin has been used as well.

Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (15:37)

No exposure, right? No exposure.

Yeah. Yes. So, my own hospital is, is a, is a great product. my own hospital alone, although you will find oftentimes my, my own hospital with a D chimeric, hospital and really the literature shows that my own hospital by itself is the one that truly has the most benefit might be hard to find.

Michelle (16:06)

Right, yeah.

Right because for a little while they said my own hospital and dechiro, but now they're going back to saying just my own ocital, correct?

Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (16:23)

Yeah, well the way that it's normally found in the body is at a ratio of 20 to 1. And that's what those supplements show, 20 to 1. Although we know now that in the ovary it's almost 40 to 1 ratio of myoinocytol to D -chimeric, inocytol.

Michelle (16:30)

Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (16:49)

Myo Inositol is actually not an essential vitamin, but it's considered like a vitamin, but it's in the category of B8 It's a glucose like peptide that basically helps to Help the system function by processing the circulating blood sugar in a way that's more physiologic and there by lowering insulin levels and thereby also helping tremendously with

Michelle (16:56)

Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (17:16)

regularity of cycles and even spontaneous ovulation as well. And metformin obviously is medication that's been around for many, many years. It is somewhat of a controversial drug. It is an anti -aging drug even these days because we know that insulin levels are so profoundly toxic for aging for the muscle and for the system in general.

Michelle (17:29)

Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (17:45)

And so we know it works, we know that it helps with the efficiency of insulin. And so it's certainly been used for many, many, many years in the presence of patients with polycystic ovarian syndrome. I would challenge people to be a little bit more meticulous about using it in patients who are the lean PCOS.

Michelle (18:11)

Right.

Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (18:11)

or the skinny PCOS or the ovulatory PCOS even though insulin levels have been shown to be higher, slightly higher in...

Michelle (18:19)

So you're talking about being cautious with metformin, not necessarily myonositol. Yeah, yeah.

Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (18:22)

Metformin, you also don't want very high levels of myelonostetal because they can be, you know, there is some quote unquote toxicity. I think the recommendations are up to four grams per day. I think all the recommendations are four grams per day in two divided doses, two grams in the morning and two grams at night. I've seen patients be on eight grams and 10 grams and toxicity really starts happening around the greater than 10 gram dose.

Michelle (18:29)

Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (18:52)

I in our office we only use it, you know, what's recommended which is the four gram total per day two grams in the morning two grams at night and I don't think it's the end -all be -all I don't think it's you know treating anything in life is multi -pronged. It's not just one single thing perhaps but I definitely believe very wholeheartedly that it does assist in in adjunct treatment, although we certainly have patients put patients on on myocytil and combined with

Michelle (19:06)

Yeah. Right.

Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (19:20)

diet and exercise and have been able to achieve pregnancies on their own, which is obviously what we want instead of having to go through treatments.

Michelle (19:27)

That's great. I mean, I will say that I was very surprised this past year. two different patients came from different, different places, not yours, it was other doctors, but I think the nutritionist there suggested metformin when they did not have insulin resistance or PCOS for egg quality.

Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (19:47)

Yeah, I'm not familiar with any studies that have shown that have improved that. In fact, when I was a fellow, we were, just as I was coming into fellowship, where I trained, Rutgers was involved with a very well known and publicized study, it's called the PP COAS study, which looked at patients on placebo versus metformin alone versus metformin with Clomid, sorry.

placebo versus clomid versus clomid with metformin and there was no difference in pregnancy rates or anything else. I'll go one step further with them going back to the myonocytol. It has even been shown to decrease the rates of gestational diabetes and so in our patients with PCOS with who are you know

Michelle (20:18)

Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (20:39)

Stage one, type one obesity, type two, we'll continue them on the myonostetal throughout the pregnancy and when they leave us and go to their OB -GYN, in our referral letter back, we'll say that we're recommending for her to continue on myonostetal because there have been improvements in sugar levels and glycemic control and reduction in gestational diabetes overall.

Michelle (20:54)

Yeah, that's good to know.

another big one is vitamin D. A lot of people, even though we're in Florida here, we have a lot of sun. A lot of people are very deficient in vitamin D.

Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (21:11)

Yeah, What it is is a combination of things. Number one, we're not as sun exposed as you think we are. You know, we're always in a car, we're always indoors, it's very hot. And yes, we go out to the beach and there is a lot of sun, but we become very, very sensitive to the sun and to the untoward effects of the sun.

Michelle (21:17)

Mm -hmm.

Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (21:35)

So we protect ourselves tremendously. That's number one. Number two is that I think the levels are set higher than what the average person can sustain with just diet and sun exposure. And actually the recommendations now in the infertility world that when you order a vitamin D from Quest, they'll tell you that the levels are, you want them at

Michelle (21:38)

Mm -hmm.

Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (22:04)

definitively above 20 Certainly above 30 and now recently now the recommendations are that for them to go above 40 and and and Yeah, I'm not yeah, so I heard I've read 40 I it was a Paper that came out of Either the Lancet or

Michelle (22:11)

Yes, yep, I've been hearing that or even 50. Yeah.

Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (22:27)

or fertility necessarily, anyone, one of, that they recommend now for vitamin D levels to be above 40. So that's really hard. I mean, I work really hard. I take a lot of vitamin D and I'm just barely scraping like 50. You know, I take about 5 ,000 units a day, which is what we're recommending nowadays, 5 ,000 units of vitamin D. And I take that every single day and I barely scratch,

Michelle (22:38)

Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (22:56)

you know, 45, 50 every time I get an average check. So I'm not getting as much sun as I think I am, number one. I am out fairly often. I do play some golf, not enough. And yet it's not enough. So definitely supplementation's important.

Michelle (23:03)

Mm -hmm.

Yeah, magnesium is also important. That's another thing. It's to not be deficient in magnesium because magnesium plays an important role of our absorption of D, which, you know, obviously doing this, I learned, I was like, that's might be deficient magnesium and be taking a lot of D and then their body's not processing, which is why it's important sometimes even in foods, foods have everything. So like,

even beef liver, you know, from Chinese medicine perspective is so beneficial because it has iron, but it has it in a combination of nutrients that helps the body absorb it.

Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (23:46)

Yeah, B6, B12 are incredibly important for iron absorption as well. So all of these things are extremely important. Everything is all intertwined and we're just learning about this. And for us, I've really gotten grabbed hold of this whole longevity thing, hence my aura ring and all of this. And...

Michelle (23:57)

It is.

Yeah.

Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (24:09)

I'm just trying to apply a lot of the things that we know today work for longevity medicine and anti -aging principles to the infertility world because it's all intertwined. It's all intertwined.

Michelle (24:16)

Yeah.

without a doubt. It's funny because that you say that because I always say it's pretty much anti aging. Yeah.

Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (24:26)

Yeah, totally, totally. They're even coming up with a way to stop menopause.

Michelle (24:36)

wow. How?

Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (24:37)

which is extremely interesting. Believe it or not, recombinant antimullerian hormones.

Michelle (24:42)

How is that? Explain that.

Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (24:46)

So the way that antimullerine, the function of antimullerine hormone at the level of the ovary is that it stops follicular recruitment. That's why women with PCOS have higher AMHs and therefore they have higher egg counts and higher, they tend to go into menopause later on, et cetera. That's because they have high levels of antimullerine hormone. So by reproducing or creating it in the laboratory and then from an early stage,

This is in its infancy, by the way, okay? So this is, yeah, this company, I believe she's a Harvard scientist, biochemist or something, who's coming up. My point is that, listen, that it's all intertwined, aging and even in menopause, for God sakes. Now I've been doing this for so long that I now,

Michelle (25:18)

It's new.

Mm -hmm.

Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (25:39)

seeing menopausal patients who were like, you know, listen, you took care of my baby, you're a reproductive metachronologist, you understand the science, will you treat me? And, you know, like, and I realized, like, somewhere, some women got like, they got a some bad luck thrown their way because, you know, with the WHI results and the way they were interpreted, they made hormones bad. And somewhere along the way, someone said,

It's okay for women to suffer from menopause, just suck it up. Like it's not okay. That's not okay. That's not okay. And so if you start from very early on and, you know, and, and really practice what you preach, which is healthcare and not sick care, which is what we practice in the United States, you know, we're just very, we, we're not proactive. We're reactive to when a patient is sick instead of early intervention, early screening and all of that.

Michelle (26:25)

Yeah, absolutely.

Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (26:30)

And that goes for the infertility world and that goes for a woman's long reproductive life extending past menopause. I think we still have a lot of challenges to overcome, but I think that we're heading in the right direction. Sorry to digress a little bit. I went off on a tangent there for a second.

Michelle (26:43)

Yeah, for sure. no, it's okay. But you know what? I love the passion and I love that, that, you know, ultimately is great. It's important, very important, because it's true. And I agree a lot with what you just said, that we should be proactive when it comes to healthcare. I mean, really when it comes to so many things and something else that I...

that I read, it was an animal study. It was a study on, I believe it was like, I don't remember which kind of animal it was. I think it was like either sheep or cows or some form of those where they actually gave them oxytocin right before IUI. And that improved the chances of the conception rates, which I thought was very interesting because I think that that's one of the things with IUI that's missing because obviously you're taking away the connection.

that is usually there when you're just under natural circumstance. And I thought it was interesting because I was looking into it for something else to understand from a Chinese medicine perspective, because they have this heart -uterusconnection, that connection, the bonding. And so what I found was interesting too is that oxytocin increases around ovulation and after intercourse. And usually what they look at it as its role is usually for labor.

not so much conception. So I was just going to kind of like pick your brain on that. Any thoughts on that?

Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (28:13)

Well, I mean, oxytocin is secreted at the time of... I'm not sure of ovulation, I didn't know that. But definitely at the time of...

Michelle (28:21)

or it increases around that time, like right before ovulation in the cycle, a woman cycle.

Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (28:27)

What we know that it's involved is at the time of orgasm. And so this may promote uterine contractility, which is what is used for intrapartum, to promote contractility of the uterus, to promote descent and eventual delivery. And we know that it's intimately involved in orgasm, we're seeing.

Michelle (28:33)

Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (28:55)

during intercourse and orgasm and so with you know the projection of with the secretion of oxytocin and it causing uterine contractility obviously not at the same level that it does during labor but at smaller amounts then I can see how there could be a role for oxytocin in artificial insemination.

Michelle (29:18)

even in fertility in general and because it's got to be there for a reason why would the body produce it around that time?

Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (29:25)

Well, yeah, I guess, but it's either IUI or IVF and we definitely don't want oxytocin during the IVF cycle.

Michelle (29:33)

Right, because you don't want to contract, right?

Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (29:35)

Right, because we're transferring an embryo where there should not be any oxytocin. And you can have the most beautiful embryo, but if you screw up the embryo transfer, through no fault, just because it's a difficult transfer for a myriad of reasons, and you cause uterine contractility, then there's a high likelihood of pregnancy not occurring during that time.

Michelle (29:57)

Right. I think it would be an interesting thing to look into for IUI. There might be something to it, because if it works with animals, and the animals obviously have similar certain functions that we do, mammals, that seems like an interesting thing.

Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (30:10)

Yeah.

I think there's not going to be a lot of resources put into improving IUI, to be honest with you. IUI, I think it is what it is. And I mean, I think the majority of research is going to go to improving even more IVF rates, because I think ultimately patients are going to want to go more.

Michelle (30:22)

Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (30:40)

towards IBF, no matter how hard we try to say, hey, listen, there's this option or this option or this option. It's more become a more of an instant gratification society. Number one, number two, people are waiting longer. So therefore they're more pressed for time, if you will. And I think there will be less of a motivation to go down a treatment option that frankly,

Michelle (30:48)

Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (31:07)

You know, has a low pregnancy rate.

Michelle (31:09)

Right. And then my other question is, what are your, thoughts about a lower intensity cycle?

like lower amounts of hormones for older women. In some cases I've heard it might be a little better. you do? Yeah, yeah.

Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (31:24)

We use it all the time. Yeah, we use it all the time. I think it's...

a very successful option in cases with severely diminished ovarian reserve. I think that the senescent ovary does not do well with high impact medication or high doses of medication separately, but you know, jointly the medication costs are exorbitant and you end up having the same number of eggs that are mature, that get fertilized with a mini stent protocol as you do with

Michelle (31:38)

Okay.

Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (31:59)

a high dose regimen.

Michelle (32:02)

Okay, so you've seen good success with that.

Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (32:06)

Well, I mean, not good success because generally these cases are, we've seen success. Let's call it that. Because the patients that you're treating with these medics, with this protocol are patients who are POI, you know, premature ovarian insufficiency, diminished ovarian reserve, poor egg quality, high rate maniploidy. So these are your poor responders essentially. And they're very...

Michelle (32:12)

Yeah, okay.

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (32:34)

specific factors that propel a woman to have success with this protocol compared to her twin sister with almost the same testing who doesn't do as well.

Michelle (32:47)

Got it. And then lastly, we talked about this in the pre -talk, let's talk about marijuana and sperm, data is showing. Yeah.

Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (32:55)

I don't do it myself, but I have no problem with people that do. What the data has shown that we're just becoming more and more familiar because the overwhelming number of people who are using cannabis and open about it, which is the second part, which was very difficult to conduct studies because it was so people were ostracized. They were looked at.

not the wrong way and seen as in the fringe. And now it's, you know, it's so mainstream. but so now we're, we're keenly aware, of patients were able to analyze them and what we know without a shadow of a doubt that the potency of the cannabis that's being produced these days is anywhere between eight to 12 times more potent than I think I use the joke of the guys at Woodstock back in the sixties, right?

Michelle (33:21)

Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (33:46)

where everybody was getting pregnant and everybody was high on life, all of those things. And then what we've also known, which I did mention, is that using the vape pens, whatever types of inhalers as opposed to the traditional joint, if you will, increase the potency of that by a factor of two to three. The cannabis that was already potent to begin with.

Michelle (34:08)

Yeah.

Right.

Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (34:14)

So what you're seeing in males in particular, and I'm not sure that the literature is so complete on the female aspects, are that we're seeing a high levels of fragmentation. And what fragmentation is, is imagine that sperm is like an Amazon box. And inside that box, there's a porcelain doll that's wrapped in these packing cubes. They're held very, very tight. And under...

Michelle (34:26)

Mm -hmm.

Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (34:40)

The best of circumstances, those packing cubes are wound so tight, packed so tight that nothing, if I kick the box off the Amazon truck, nothing is gonna happen to the porcelain doll. Well, as fragmentation occurs and it happens under natural conditions and old guys like me, you know, patients who, occupational hazards, firefighters, exposed to toxins, a lot of people who use fertilizers, et cetera, et cetera.

you see high levels of fragmentation. I'm talking about DNA fragmentation. And so what we're seeing is high levels of fragmentation at the level of the DNA of the sperm, which has significant effects on embryo quality, embryo development, and pregnancy rates, and high levels of aneuploidy, which is abnormal embryos. So,

Michelle (35:10)

So you're talking about DNA fragmentation. Yeah. Yeah.

Mm -hmm.

Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (35:33)

You know, I'm not here to like, you know, slap you on the wrist and say don't smoke weed, but really that's what you're facing. And we know that this happens in women with cigarette smoking. Like this is a well -known cause of an accelerated transition to perimenopause. You know, 65 % of women who smoked a pack a day for greater than 15 years will go into menopause before the age of 40, assuming they started before their 20s. That's a pretty...

Michelle (35:40)

Bye.

Mm -hmm.

Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (36:03)

ominous number, actually. Thankfully, not many women smoke these days, cigarettes anyway. So I guess the results of cannabis on females is yet to be elucidated, but we definitely have some pretty compelling evidence in terms of the male data that show that it can have detrimental or deleterious effects on sperm quality and not necessarily on numbers.

Michelle (36:04)

Yeah.

Mm -hmm.

right, which is what people look at usually when I mean, that's like the, the analysis is always on numbers shape and, numbers shape it. Yeah. And morphology and they won't necessarily look at the DNA fragmentation. That's actually not something that REIs usually initially look at.

Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (36:33)

Exactly.

the thesis in morphology.

is done in a well not initially unless there's comorbid situations or things that raise your red flags. For example, advanced paternal age, we always do it. Particularly in egg donor cycles, right? Because patients will be like, well, I'm using an egg donor and why don't I have bad energy? Well, because your husband could be 70 or 60 and

Michelle (37:11)

Yeah.

Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (37:14)

And then their fragmentation is completely elevated and through the roof. So yeah. So, you know, firefighters, occupational hazards.

Michelle (37:18)

Right. So, yeah, it's important. It's important for people to hear this because they can go in and say, the semen analysis was perfect. But that, like what you just said, is not really checked. So they may not, in a healthy, like, younger guy.

Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (37:35)

It's not as nuanced as we once thought it was.

Michelle (37:38)

Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. It's, it's fun. It's always fun for me to talk to our, our ease, you know, just to get, to pick your brain and get your thoughts. and you're my neighbors. So it's pretty cool.

Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (37:50)

That's right. Thank you very much for the invitation. This was really fun. We spoke about a wide array of different topics here. So this was really nice to connect this way.

Michelle (37:53)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, for sure. And I know that a lot of people are going to be like, this is interesting information. Cause I know that what you just mentioned, a lot of it is not common knowledge. people don't know automatically hear about this or really know to think about asking about it. So, so I appreciate all your information, all your good, good data. And, for people who would like to work with you or in town, how can they find more about you?

Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (38:27)

Well, we are at Conceptions Florida. We have two offices in Merritt Park, Coral Gables and one in Miramar and hopefully soon also in Boca. And I'm there Armando Hernandez -Ray, MD I'm sure. Easy to find these days on Google, but I'm happy to help in any way that we can. We've been doing this for a long time, quite successfully, thankfully. And we take a lot of pride, humbly speaking, but probably also.

in having a good footprint in South Florida and the infertility world and trying to offer the best care possible.

Michelle (39:01)

Awesome. Well, this was such a pleasure and thank you so much for coming on today.

Armando Hernandez-Rey MD (39:05)

Thank you, Michelle.

EP 292 Sleep, Melatonin, & Sperm health | Dr. Kelsey Duncan

After being told at a young age that she might struggle getting pregnant, without receiving adequate support or guidance, Dr. Kelsey embarked on a mission to offer better healthcare to women. She firmly believes women deserve the information to make quality decisions, the support they need to be successful, and the confidence in knowing they are doing everything within their power to make a baby. Through her 3 pillar Fertility Success System, Dr. Kelsey and her team have helped bring hundreds of babies into the world using evidence-driven medicine and supporting couples regardless of where they are in their fertility journey.

When she’s not helping couples reach their fertility goals, you can find Dr. Kelsey spending time with her 2 kids, watching trashy reality tv when they go to bed, and enjoying time up north by the water. 

Free Webinar: Five Strategies to Build Fertility Confidence: https://kelseyduncan.com/ondemand/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/fertilityconfidencemethod/

Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@dr.kelseyduncannaturopathi9750

Fertility Confidence Podcast

• Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/2xctPYL5cxoI1zFwSZJUmf?utm_medium=share&utm_source=linktree

• Apple Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/fertility-confidence-podcast/id1553380342?itsct=podcast_box_link&itscg=30200

• Website: https://caredforwellnessclinic.com/podcast/ 

For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook:https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

Transcript:

Michelle (00:01.572)

So welcome to the podcast, Kelsey.

Dr. Kelsey (00:04.43)

Thank you so much for having me. It's nice to see you again.

Michelle (00:07.236)

Nice to see you as well. So I was on your podcast. Now you're on my podcast.

Dr. Kelsey (00:11.566)

Yeah, getting very familiar, which is always good.

Michelle (00:16.26)

Yeah, for sure. So I'd love to have you share your story, your background story, which I always love hearing how you got into the work that you're doing today.

Dr. Kelsey (00:23.346)

That's it.

Yeah, amazing. Well, it started with an acne journey, which I feel is very common as a young woman, but I had really horrible cystic acne. And I went through all the traditional medical route of what can you do to help me? It was a 14, 15, 16 year old girl. I was really looking at anything to make my skin clear. So,

I was really just routinely offered various forms of birth control and some different antibacterial creams. And anytime I went on birth control or any of the birth controls they switched me on to, I never felt great. I was incredibly nauseous for a good portion of the month. It was really impacting my quality of life. But like I said, my skin felt like my number one priority. So I just sort of like suffered through that for many, many years.

Michelle (01:07.812)

Mm.

Dr. Kelsey (01:22.158)

And then I actually saw a naturopath in my journey once I was probably 19 or 20. And I just had one appointment with her. And it was like finally being heard after so many years of feeling like no one was taking me seriously of, you know, she's just another.

that doesn't like her skin, like nothing crazy. And it wasn't, you know, this huge, profound like skin clearing experience either, but it was something that made me really start to question my journey and route in terms of how, what I wanted to do with my life. I knew, I always knew I wanted to be in medicine and help people. I just wasn't fully sure at that point what that really looked like. And so it was my first introduction to naturopathic medicine.

And it felt really lovely. And I just kind of kept going through I thought I was going to be a pharmacist kept going through the motions of like going through that journey. And when that didn't work out, I had this like light bulb moment of like, well, I really liked that. Like, why don't I see you know what that's all about. And the stars sort of aligned that I had all the prerequisites to apply the applications were open, it all kind of worked out really well. And I landed myself.

Michelle (02:18.788)

well.

Dr. Kelsey (02:41.038)

in naturopathic college very shortly after I graduated. And fast forward a few years, I then had another experience in the medical community that pertained to my fertility. And it was my like last ditch effort in my hormonal birth control phase of again, trying to figure out my skin. And I was told that we would likely struggle, I'd likely struggle to get pregnant whenever the time came. Here's another.

you know, birth control prescription, like, see you later. And that was sort of the breaking point for me of like, okay, at that moment, it wasn't like, hugely about the fertility piece, though that was, you know, a big factor for me of like, my gosh, you know, I have to have this conversation with my boyfriend, who's now my husband, but

you know, what is that gonna look like and where the heck do I go from here? And it really propelled me into the field of women's health medicine in general. But I also felt very fortunate that I got this warning when I was young that my fertility is something I need to pay attention to. And a lot of women don't get that, right? We often don't.

Michelle (03:53.86)

Mm -hmm.

Dr. Kelsey (03:54.446)

get to even start having these conversations until sometimes you're six months into trying and then you're like, what the heck, it's not easy, what's going on? And now we're learning, whereas I, you know, my journey wasn't awesome, but I was blessed with this opportunity to really dig into that piece many years before we were even ready. And I attribute that to our very fortunate success down the road.

Michelle (04:00.452)

Right. Yeah.

Dr. Kelsey (04:20.558)

of being able to set my body up for success and have those conversations. And I was obviously already embedded in a community that took a very natural whole body focused approach. And when I came out of school, I knew that that's where I was meant to kind of put my expertise was in helping couples, A, hopefully, you know, create content and get the word out there that like we should be having these conversations.

earlier than when we're even ready, but be okay, if you're not getting the support on your fertility experience in mainstream medicine, like guess what, there's other options. And that's how Fertility Confidence Method came to be.

Michelle (04:50.212)

Yeah.

Michelle (05:05.604)

That's awesome. We have very similar stories. We talked about that before. And if I might ask, what were they basing the fertility, well, what they were perceiving as fertility issues on?

Dr. Kelsey (05:09.678)

I see you. I see you.

Dr. Kelsey (05:19.534)

Yeah. Yeah, I was trying to, it was a botched IUD insertion, which if anyone listening has ever, you know, had an IUD put in or unfortunately had a similar experience to me, it was not awesome. So there was a lot of like medical trauma that came out of that appointment just as a whole. But she kept telling me that like my uterus was a funny shape. It wasn't.

Michelle (05:26.436)

Mm -hmm.

Michelle (05:40.772)

wow. Yeah.

Dr. Kelsey (05:48.814)

the way that it should be, that there was something wrong with it. And it was quite literally just based off that, you know, assessment alone. There was never an ultrasound done. And I was 21. Like, I didn't know any better at the time to like ask more questions or get more knowledge at that moment. I did seek that out down the line and was told like, you know, yes, there are factors here, but like,

let's just try and see what happens. And I had put my body in a very, you know, privileged stance at that point of like, I had years to work on egg quality and balance my hormones, you know, coming off of birth control, I actually had quite a few hormonal issues with that, that the birth control was just masking for me this whole time, right? So I had years to fix that.

Michelle (06:36.516)

Yeah.

Dr. Kelsey (06:43.15)

But the physical piece that they made like a big stink about truly at the end of the day, I don't think was as big of a factor as they made it seem, which is another big piece of the story of like getting factual information into the hands of women so that we're not, you know, walking around thinking we're barren because I spent a good portion of my 20s assuming that because that's how it was explained to me. It wasn't really.

Michelle (07:10.148)

Yeah.

Dr. Kelsey (07:11.246)

discussed in an appropriate manner, right?

Michelle (07:14.98)

Totally. And I've heard people say, you know, they've been told, you have PCOS, you're likely to have issues getting pregnant. You're going to have a hard time. Like really, it's just, just give that information to somebody, get that in their mind and then let them leave the office. Yeah. Yeah. There is a thought.

Dr. Kelsey (07:23.598)

Yeah.

Dr. Kelsey (07:30.798)

Yeah, let's actually help them. What does that that conversation can happen in a far more appropriate manner that supportive versus like you're going to struggle. It's like, well, okay, we know this is here. We know that this has the potential to decrease fertility rates. So let's, you know, dig deeper, find the root cause work on that. So that's not your story. Instead of just

Michelle (07:44.132)

Mm -hmm.

Michelle (07:58.084)

Yeah.

Dr. Kelsey (07:58.702)

putting women on birth control and saying like, when you wanna have kids, we'll just see what happens is kind of the route with PCOS. It's the route with endometriosis as well often, any sort of like period concern. That's sort of how we tackle it, unfortunately.

Michelle (08:03.812)

Totally.

Michelle (08:08.676)

Mm -hmm.

Michelle (08:16.1)

Yeah, it is unfortunate, but it is out there, which is why I like getting this message out for people. I've had naturopathic doctors on before, but somebody might be just kind of stumbling upon this podcast. I would love for you to just give an overview on how that's different than mainstream medicine and how you guys approach really the body and like health.

Dr. Kelsey (08:26.35)

Mm -hmm.

Dr. Kelsey (08:38.446)

Yeah. Yeah. I love to explain it in a way of like, in terms of like a general practitioner, we're not vastly different, but we have different tools in our toolkit. So we still learn a very similar education as your like standard GP, obviously, when we're getting into like more specialty realms, that's a different journey. But we are more focused on looking at the body as a whole and getting down to the root cause versus treating the symptom, which tends to be how mainstream medicine approaches the majority of complaints, right? I often call it it's reactive healthcare when we're going that route. It's like, I have a problem, this might fix that problem. And if that works, cool.

we're not gonna dig any deeper. And if that doesn't, we might then assess different. Whereas with naturopathic medicine, we really don't wanna be just putting band -aids on things. We wanna be getting down to the root cause and understanding like, why is this happening? And what is our body trying to tell us? And the reality is, is that a lot of times with hormones, for example,

we, you know, there's supplements and things we can all read about and blogs and see on TikTok. But at the end of the day, if it's your gut, that's the problem. Like none of those things are going to help you. So we want to just pick away at the pieces and see in the layers of the body versus just looking superficially at the front. And then we use our different tools. So for me, for example, and not all NDs are going to

hold the same value, but it's all about gold standard of care for me. So I'm not anti -pharmaceutical. I'm not anti -mainstream medicine. A lot of my clients work with fertility clinics still. I think there really needs to be a synergistic approach between Western medicine and alternative care. I think that's the way of the future to lessen the burden on mainstream medicine truly, but we're going to come in and look at, okay,

Dr. Kelsey (10:53.006)

How are you eating? How are you sleeping? What's your stress like? Are you moving your body? Like there's so many fundamental pieces of health that don't really get talked about in mainstream medicine. And for two reasons, one, they're not trained in that realm. You know, their nutrition training is like a day or something like that. Like it's not a lot.

Michelle (11:06.084)

Mm -hmm.

Dr. Kelsey (11:19.47)

They don't learn about supplements unless they're pharmaceutical branded and they don't have the time, right? Like here in Ontario, we have quote unquote free healthcare, but your appointments are like seven to 10 minutes and then they got to see the next person and the next person. I know it's like that in many places. So we're now not getting the time to have these fundamental conversations. It really is just how quick can I fix the problem?

So as an ND, I have the flexibility of having longer appointments if I'm in private practice and spending the time and doing the digging. And I have the extra training to put the pieces of the puzzle together from a whole body systems approach.

Michelle (12:06.404)

And how do you uncover it? Do you do different testing? Like what's the difference between the testing that you would run versus the testing that people would get more mainstream?

Dr. Kelsey (12:13.71)

Yeah.

Dr. Kelsey (12:17.454)

Yeah, we run a lot of blood work with our clients, which is similar to what, you know, your fertility clinic would run. But I do find that in the fertility realm specifically, lab assessment is still very surface level. Like your first kind of look at, I'm walking into the clinic, my first appointment, they're going to do some testing. It's still not deep enough for the majority of couples. So we're then getting that unexplained tag instead of actually going down that next rabbit hole. So we dig a little bit deeper just with a variety of labs looking at nutrient deficiencies and blood sugar management and things like that, that the clinics don't often look at first and foremost, unless there's like a big glaring red flag in your health history, then they might. And then we do sometimes use some various functional testing, it depends who I'm working with. So,

And for me with testing, I really wanna make sure that we're using resources, we're spending money and we're ordering tests that are going to change the treatment protocol. So I'm always very strategic there with like what makes sense per couple in terms of what we wanna look at. And then if any of you listen to the Fertility Confidence Podcast or follow me, you'll know I'm very passionate about male fertility. And so regardless of where you're at in your journey,

It's not all about you and your partner needs a semen analysis. Even if you're one month in, doesn't matter. We need to be uncovering that as well. So if that's not something that's been done early on, and usually if a couple isn't in the fertility clinic realm yet, I find that their doctor might run them some labs, but their partners are kind of just left off to the side for a while. And in our world, that's not okay. It's a whole couple approach. We want to see both factors.

Michelle (13:45.572)

I'm going to go ahead and close the video.

Michelle (14:07.876)

Mm -hmm.

Michelle (14:12.036)

Do you typically see both at the same time every time you speak to people?

Dr. Kelsey (14:17.358)

Yeah, we want to, yeah, we use a very whole couple approach. So I want to make sure that we're not missing something. And I've missed things before by not having their partner in on the assessment or doing that testing or having those conversations and then having them down the line and being like, damn, we just like wasted so much time by not doing this earlier. So

Michelle (14:26.884)

Mm -hmm.

Dr. Kelsey (14:43.342)

Right from the get -go, like I said, no matter how long you've been trying, no matter if you've had kids previously or not, we wanna see those numbers. And at the very least, we wanna get partners involved in prenatal care, even while we wait for a semen analysis, because sperm's 50 % of the equation. And all the things we talk about from female perspective and egg quality and blood sugar and balancing hormones, we could literally...

Michelle (14:56.964)

Mm -hmm.

Michelle (15:02.052)

Yeah.

Dr. Kelsey (15:12.462)

flip that script to men and it's equally equally as important. So that's another big piece that's missing in the conversation right now.

Michelle (15:21.06)

Yeah, it's true. And what do you find is a core reason for men having sperm quality issues or even motility and count? Like what are some of the factors that you've seen impacting that?

Dr. Kelsey (15:40.27)

Yeah, I think they need to do more research in the overall why, but we've seen in the data that in the last 40, 50 years, sperm numbers have decreased a significant amount, and they're decreasing at a rate of something like 2 .5 % a year right now. So there's a huge issue happening. And the reality is, is I don't think we'll ever fully know why, but I think we can make some assumptions.

Michelle (15:58.66)

That's crazy.

Dr. Kelsey (16:09.582)

One of those assumptions being our environment is very different than it was 50 years ago. We're exposed to more chemicals, toxins, pesticides, radiation, and they need to do more data into that. There's a recent study that's kind of circulating right now about glyphosate being found in semen specifically. And so now we're starting to see direct correlations, but there's already lots of research in men who have

high levels of parabens or phthalates in their urine having lower sperm quality and count numbers. So we know that environmental toxins are likely a culprit of the global decrease. And I do think that stress is probably a contributing factor. Life is different now. We live in a very go, go, go society. If you're not hustling, you're not winning. And I think we don't take...

Michelle (16:46.244)

Mm -hmm.

Dr. Kelsey (17:08.686)

enough, you know, as we could have this whole conversation for women as well. But, you know, cortisol is in men and cortisol impacts many things. And there's a really fascinating study that looked at men who lived in like war zones and men who like college men, for example, who had to write exams.

Michelle (17:15.012)

Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Dr. Kelsey (17:31.758)

And they did see a decrease in those time periods in their sperm numbers. So we know that stress plays a factor. So that's my assumption right now. Like I said, I don't know if we'll ever fully, it's so multifaceted that I'm not sure we'll ever have like a clear answer, but I think environment is playing a role. And I do think that stress is likely playing a role and we can couple in, you know, with our environment, food quality.

Michelle (17:31.812)

Mm.

Michelle (17:40.676)

Mm -hmm.

Michelle (17:47.524)

Yeah, for sure.

Dr. Kelsey (18:01.71)

Overall has gone down, processed food and the access to processed food and our consumption of sugar has gone up over the years. All of these things, they're all playing a really big factor in not just how a male's body makes sperm, but testosterone levels, which are also important for sperm production.

Michelle (18:09.828)

huh.

Michelle (18:23.364)

Yeah, a couple of things came to mind. I actually remember reading something about sperm production and count relating very much to nervous system imbalances, which really kind of speaks to the stress aspect of it. But also, I mean, you see, I see guys carrying their phones in their front pocket.

Dr. Kelsey (18:34.254)

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Yeah, totally.

Dr. Kelsey (18:44.142)

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Michelle (18:44.9)

It's got to play a role. I mean, we're, you know, we know that that's what's happening recently is that like technology is increasing and there's so many more waves that we're exposed to that we have not been exposed to before.

Dr. Kelsey (18:57.838)

Yeah, we need more research for sure. I'm always scouring for EMF data because I get asked all the time, right? And I'm like, we don't, we know a little, but we don't know a lot. Like, we don't know enough to be like, everyone put it all away. Like, this is the culprit, right? But but that is one really easy recommendation, like just in case that we can give and we know that phones are giving off, you know,

Michelle (19:05.284)

Yeah.

Michelle (19:12.292)

Mm -hmm.

Dr. Kelsey (19:24.334)

lots of things and we also know that they get warm, right? And testicular heat is a big factor. And so I'm in Southern Ontario and yeah, yeah, no kidding. Yeah, just put it in your back pocket. That's what I tell my clients. I say, if you're moving around, put in your back pocket. When you get there, when you get to wherever you're going, if you can take it out of your pocket and put on the table, just do that.

Michelle (19:29.892)

Yeah.

Michelle (19:33.956)

I would say be careful anyway, even if you don't have the data. I mean, don't wait for the data to be careful. Yeah, I see the same thing.

Dr. Kelsey (19:52.558)

Like just get in the habit of not always having to have it in your pocket. And that was something I really had to train my husband with too, because he would just leave his phone in his front pocket all the time. And I was like, we just, just, it's super simple. You just have to change your habit. And it feels weird at first, sure. But overall, like, and not just in the fertility journey, but it is likely causing testicular damage. And so when we're thinking whole health long -term,

Michelle (19:53.092)

Yeah.

Michelle (20:04.132)

Yeah.

Michelle (20:09.54)

Yes.

Dr. Kelsey (20:22.094)

We don't want that either, right? Because now we're gonna have testosterone issues and now we've got all the fun side effects of that as well.

Michelle (20:24.932)

Nope.

Michelle (20:30.564)

I just remember a couple of years, and this is before it was as strong as it is now. I remember seeing this maybe even like 2008, 2009. There was a girl and her mom that went on the Dr. Oz show. And the girl at the time, I don't know if you remember, sometimes girls would put their cell phones in their bra. She would always put it on her right.

Dr. Kelsey (20:45.55)

Mm -hmm.

Dr. Kelsey (20:52.942)

Yep.

Michelle (20:55.012)

side of her brow or like one side over the other. And she ended up getting an aggressive tumor, cancer at 18 years old. And she said, there's no way that this naturally happens for an 18 year old in the same exact spot that she kept her cell phone. So I want to get this message out. And this is years ago, like years and years ago. And that never left my mind. And I was like, you know, that

Dr. Kelsey (21:02.408)

Yeah.

Dr. Kelsey (21:11.886)

Yeah.

Dr. Kelsey (21:17.198)

Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Yep.

Michelle (21:24.068)

is not, it cannot be random. It cannot be just left to chance. And this is way back when, when the technology and the radiation was less than it is today. So I'm thinking people need to pay attention to that.

Dr. Kelsey (21:33.038)

Yeah.

Dr. Kelsey (21:38.446)

Yeah, yeah, there's this whole like when we look at the sperm decrease data, it's starting looking at like 1940, like we didn't have cell phones back then, right? Like that is a big change in our society that has to be playing a role with both men and women in some way. And whether or not we'll see like the good confirmation, like you said, it doesn't matter. Like it's an easy change that we can.

Michelle (21:48.644)

Yeah. Yeah.

Michelle (21:57.796)

Yeah.

Dr. Kelsey (22:06.382)

you know, feel comfortable with the assumption that it's likely not nothing. Even if it's just a small piece, every little bit helps. And so it's not a pill. It's not something you have to buy. You literally just have to move it off of your body.

Michelle (22:10.788)

Yeah.

Michelle (22:16.644)

No.

Right, right. We're such creatures of habit though, so I get it. Like it is hard. It's hard to break a habit. If you're used to something and actually there's science behind it because like you have a certain pattern, certain triggers and certain behavior that it feels very like unnatural to change. So, you know, it's a known thing, but it's not forever. You're going to eventually shift it. Same thing with diet, you know,

Dr. Kelsey (22:23.694)

Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Kelsey (22:40.174)

Mm.

Michelle (22:48.932)

Diet is very behavioral and that's one thing that I noticed too. It's not something that is just physical. It's not just something that like impacts your nutrition. I mean, yes, it does, but like the behavioral aspect is a big component to it. What have you seen as like pretty common, I guess, lifestyle choices that happen that you feel need to get attention?

when it comes to fertility health from both men and women or both.

Dr. Kelsey (23:23.214)

Yeah, I think like we can talk a lot about the nutrition angle for sure, but a really big one that doesn't get as much attention that actually has fascinating research behind it is sleep. And, and again, kind of in our like higher stress society and our go, go, go lifestyle, we've sacrificed sleep to like fit it all in, right? And,

Michelle (23:37.22)

Hmm.

Michelle (23:46.948)

Mm -hmm.

Dr. Kelsey (23:48.238)

From a male side of things, we have research showing men who sleep less than seven and a half hours a night have lower sperm numbers and poor quality. And we also see by increasing sleep, those numbers actually improve. So it's not just the detriment, but by actually improving the habit, we see improvement, which is what we want at the end of the day. And we see similar patterns with women.

Michelle (23:58.436)

Mm -hmm.

Michelle (24:03.588)

wow.

Dr. Kelsey (24:14.766)

as well in terms of hormone disruption and cortisol and cortisol is an umbrella hormone, right? So it's going to impact everything. So I think that that's a big piece for a lot of couples where they're like, I feel like I'm doing everything. But if we're still, you know, lying in bed, scrolling on our phones or watching shows till midnight or later, and then getting up to start our day at like six, six, 37, you're and you, you know, you've always done that. So it just, it's a habit. It just,

feels normal in your body to live off five, six hours of sleep, but you're likely not getting enough deep or REM sleep in that timeframe. And that long -term is going to contribute to hormonal dysregulation, but it also can be impacting your fertility journey from a root cause perspective if it's impacting cortisol in that way. So sleep is always like a sneaky one, I feel, where people kind of, when they come in and work with us and we start talking about it, they're like,

Michelle (24:52.74)

Mm -hmm.

Dr. Kelsey (25:13.838)

I never thought of that. And it often, women definitely have sleep issues and things to work on, but it almost always is like, yeah, I sleep well, but my husband stays up till like one, two in the morning and he's a night owl, right? Like that's just his normal and that's his habit. And it's not a quick switch to go to bed earlier because your body's not used to it.

Michelle (25:15.108)

Yeah.

Michelle (25:36.452)

Right, yeah.

Dr. Kelsey (25:39.694)

I notice that all the time. I don't know if you notice this, Michelle, but like if I have a couple late nights and then I'm like, okay, I gotta go to bed like at a normal time. I'll just, my body's like, well, you're not ready for sleep. Like I thought we were staying up late now, right? It becomes a bit of a struggle. This was me last night. I'm like, we were away for the weekend. I was like, okay, I really need to get some sleep. And my body's like, do, do, do. So it takes time. So if you're working on sleep, we don't want you going from.

Michelle (25:52.196)

Yeah. Yes. Yep. It's true. Yeah.

Michelle (26:02.34)

Yeah.

Dr. Kelsey (26:08.046)

Midnight to be like, okay now you go to bed at 930 because you're probably gonna lie there very Frustrated and then the frustration is just gonna keep you awake so I usually tell people like go back in 15 minute increments every few days or even every week and just work yourself back into that more like appropriate Crocadian rhythm time frame because we all can go to bed at 9 930

Michelle (26:11.748)

Right. Yeah.

Dr. Kelsey (26:36.59)

What's happening for our night owls is they're pushing past their natural sleep signals and getting a surge of cortisol around 10, 10 .30. And once you get that and your body's like, we're not sleeping. Okay. Like, let me help you know. Right. And then you're like, well, why to wake? So now you're just paying up later. And so we need to find everyone's sweet spot is a little bit different, but in general, like most humans,

Michelle (26:51.908)

Yeah, and then you wake up.

Michelle (26:56.42)

Right.

Dr. Kelsey (27:05.134)

do better being asleep before 1030. And for some people, that's really early. So it takes time to sort of shift that back. But we do see in the data that longer and better quality sleep improves fertility parameters, which is really like simple thing to change.

Michelle (27:26.756)

my God, I feel like that by itself is a game changer because it's going to also impact what you eat the next day. If you're tired, you tend to go for sugar and it impacts how like, you know, your cravings. So it's such a cascade of events when you're not getting the rest that you need. And then it also goes back to the nervous system because your body's able to regulate or rejuvenate and really heal itself too.

Dr. Kelsey (27:31.758)

Mm -hmm.

Dr. Kelsey (27:35.662)

Yeah, yeah. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Dr. Kelsey (27:50.702)

Yep. Totally.

Michelle (27:56.644)

when you're going through that and clean out hormones. And I mean, there's so many things that sleep does and I love sleep. I really do. But I've always been a night owl. And you know what, my hormones and my menstrual cycle was very regular when I was younger and I had a very irregular circadian rhythm. So it really was thrown off and looking back on like it makes a lot of sense. But I think the devices too, like having it at night.

Dr. Kelsey (28:02.83)

Yeah.

Dr. Kelsey (28:19.278)

Hmm.

Michelle (28:22.82)

those things are giving your brain a signal that it's daytime when it's really not. And that's why one of the, you know, sleep hygiene, like lowering the light so that you're not getting bright light and it's not confusing your brain. But also like what you said, I loved what you said about 15 minutes, because I think that the big part about it is really wrapping your mind around the, the,

Dr. Kelsey (28:38.862)

Yeah.

Michelle (28:49.38)

idea, you know, we sort of like judge the idea of like, my God, before 10 o 'clock, no way or 1030. Like that's crazy. So it's kind of like the judgment that we have on that seems like that's not me. And so I think being aware of that, that block that you could have very easily and then just easing into it, but not ruling it out because it could really impact. I mean, cause we'll do anything else. Like why not?

Dr. Kelsey (28:55.982)

Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Kelsey (29:06.222)

Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Kelsey (29:16.846)

Yeah. Yeah. It's free. I'm trying to tell people it's free. Like we don't have to do anything crazy. We just, it's going to take time and we have to be okay with that. And we have, we're okay with flexibility because you don't have to be perfect to get pregnant. You're, you're going to have some late nights and then you're probably going to have some retraining of your brain to do. Like I was easily falling asleep by nine 30, 10 o 'clock before I went away this weekend. And then now,

Michelle (29:17.54)

Look into that as well, because it's huge. It's free. Yeah. Yeah.

Michelle (29:28.964)

Yeah.

Dr. Kelsey (29:46.862)

like, okay, now we gotta start over and that's okay. Like, nothing wrong with that and there's gonna be times where that's worth it to you to go back to your night owl tendencies but the consistency of the majority of the time we are getting to bed at an appropriate hour for your cricketing rhythm and for your hormones and giving your body the time that it needs like for the nervous system like you said to rejuvenate and recoup and.

Michelle (29:49.316)

Yeah, right. Yeah.

Michelle (29:57.604)

Yeah.

Dr. Kelsey (30:14.67)

and deal with all the stuff from the day before. And that really does bleed into your decision -making the next day, your nutrition, your cravings, but also your ability to handle stress in general. So that I think is a huge win for a lot of women and men, especially if we're identifying on our intake forms that...

Michelle (30:18.532)

Yeah.

Michelle (30:23.555)

It does. Yeah.

Michelle (30:31.236)

100%.

Dr. Kelsey (30:42.126)

they're really, really stressed and then they're only sleeping five to six hours a night. It's like, well, we're never gonna be able to manage the stress that you are having unless we give your body the tools to do so. And sleep is a really big one.

Michelle (30:58.5)

Yeah. It's like you need energy to cope with stress. Right. Well, to conceive, I mean, think about all the mitochondria we have in the egg cells and the, you know, like it's there for a reason. I mean, we need it. And, and actually on this topic, let's talk about melatonin because I know that melatonin is actually really important for egg quality, possibly sperm quality. I know more for egg quality. What are your thoughts on that?

Dr. Kelsey (31:01.358)

Yeah, you need energy to live, so just go to sleep. Yes.

Dr. Kelsey (31:18.35)

Hmm.

Dr. Kelsey (31:27.822)

Yeah, I love melatonin. The IVF research is good in terms of seeing higher numbers of embryos form. So we make that assumption from an antioxidant perspective that it's improving egg quality, which we want. But we also see melatonin improving implantation rates in IVF pregnancy. So we're actually not just seeing.

a clinical pregnancy or we're not just seeing an embryo development improvement, we're actually seeing clinical pregnancy rate improvement. So we like melatonin and how I approach it is like, this is not for sleep. So it's not just for people who don't sleep well because the majority of time people who don't sleep well, it's actually not a melatonin problem. There's usually more of a sleep hygiene issue that has to be dealt with or stress, right?

Michelle (32:12.004)

Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm. Yes. Mm -hmm.

Dr. Kelsey (32:18.094)

So I get asked that a lot, I was asked that just last week actually, like you put melatonin in my plan, but like I sleep well, do I still need to take this? And it's like, yeah, we're actually not using it for sleep. Maybe it might help you get deeper sleep, awesome. If it makes you feel groggy and gross in the morning, some people just can't hack melatonin, I can't. It does not, it makes my sleep opposite. So some people react poorly to it.

And if that's the case, it's just not the product for you on your fertility journey. And that's okay. No, there's lots of other things we can do. But the research is compelling enough. I'd love to see more male research because we haven't or I haven't seen a ton or anything really like pushing melatonin from a sperm perspective yet. But given the power of the antioxidant potential that it has, it wouldn't surprise me if it was also a really good option for men as well.

Michelle (32:49.636)

Right, right.

Michelle (33:15.012)

Yeah, cause we know that both men and women can benefit from antioxidants in general and really antioxidants work as an anti -ager. I mean, it's funny cause if you think about fertility health, just think anti -aging, like that's the protocol. And we can luckily, I mean, there are definitely things that we can do to actually change the biological clock, which is fascinating.

Dr. Kelsey (33:19.534)

Mm -hmm. Yep.

Dr. Kelsey (33:27.79)

Right. Yeah. We're literally wanting to turn the clock back a little bit.

Dr. Kelsey (33:41.198)

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Michelle (33:43.204)

Awesome. I mean, this is great conversation. We can keep talking. And I love, I really love the things that you brought up because they're important, you know, especially like the sperm, which gets ignored often. Sleep was another thing really that gets ignored often. And then the question about melatonin, I love melatonin and I love about what I love about it is that it's non habit forming. So you can get off of it and it's not going to impact your sleep.

Dr. Kelsey (34:08.398)

Hmm.

Yeah, and people are always afraid about that. So I think that's a really important piece.

Michelle (34:13.188)

Yeah, yeah. For sure, no doubt. So for people who are listening and want to hear more about you, you have a great Instagram also, by the way, with lots of amazing content. So how can people find you?

Dr. Kelsey (34:23.566)

Thank you.

Dr. Kelsey (34:27.694)

Yeah, come find me on Instagram at Fertility Confidence Method. And then I also host the Fertility Confidence Podcast. So there's tons of resources and information inside there. I do have a on -demand webinar that you can download. It's an hour long. We talk all about the fundamentals and five strategies to build your fertility confidence. So you can grab that at downloads .kelseyduncan .com slash on -demand.

Michelle (34:54.212)

Awesome. Well, Kelsey, this is such a great conversation and we definitely hit it off from the beginning. I agree on a lot of what you talk about. 

Dr. Kelsey (35:01.654)

Thank you.

Dr. Kelsey (35:13.486)

Mm.

Michelle (35:21.668)

But thank you so much for coming on today. 

Dr. Kelsey (35:26.734)

thanks for having me, Michelle.

.”

Quote Caption:

On tomorrow’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I had the pleasure of speaking with Dr. Kelsey Duncan of @fertilityconfidencemethod. Dr. Kelsey shared her journey into naturopathic medicine and her focus on women's health and fertility. The conversation highlights the importance of a whole-body approach, including nutrition, sleep, stress management, and environmental factors. Dr. Kelsey emphasizes the need for a synergistic approach between Western medicine and alternative care. She also touches on the role of melatonin in improving egg quality and the impact of sleep on fertility. Be sure to tune in!

Guest Bio:

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I interviewed Dr. Kelsey Duncan of @fertilityconfidencemethod. We had an amazing information and spoke about:

Takeaways

• The importance of a whole-body approach that includes nutrition, sleep, stress management, and environmental factors is crucial for optimizing fertility.

• Melatonin playing a role in improving egg quality and implantation rates in IVF pregnancies.

• Sleep being a critical factor in hormonal regulation and overall health, and improving sleep quality can have a positive impact on fertility.

• A synergistic approach between Western medicine and alternative care is the way of the future for addressing fertility issues.

Dr. Kelsey Duncan, ND Bio

After being told at a young age that she might struggle getting pregnant, without receiving adequate support or guidance, Dr. Kelsey embarked on a mission to offer better healthcare to women.

She firmly believes women deserve the information to make quality decisions, the support they need to be successful, and the confidence in knowing they are doing everything within their power to make a baby.

Through her 3 pillar Fertility Success System, Dr. Kelsey and her team have helped bring hundreds of babies into the world using evidence-driven medicine and supporting couples regardless of where they are in their fertility journey.

When she’s not helping couples reach their fertility goals, you can find Dr. Kelsey spending time with her 2 kids, watching trashy reality tv when they go to bed, and enjoying time up north by the water. 

Free Webinar: Five Strategies to Build Fertility Confidence: https://kelseyduncan.com/ondemand/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/fertilityconfidencemethod/

Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@dr.kelseyduncannaturopathi9750

Fertility Confidence Podcast

• Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/2xctPYL5cxoI1zFwSZJUmf?utm_medium=share&utm_source=linktree

• Apple Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/fertility-confidence-podcast/id1553380342?itsct=podcast_box_link&itscg=30200

• Website: https://caredforwellnessclinic.com/podcast/ 

For more information about Michelle, visitwww.michelleoravitz.com

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook:https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

Transcript:

Michelle (00:01.572)

So welcome to the podcast, Kelsey.

Dr. Kelsey (00:04.43)

Thank you so much for having me. It's nice to see you again.

Michelle (00:07.236)

Nice to see you as well. So I was on your podcast. Now you're on my podcast.

Dr. Kelsey (00:11.566)

Yeah, getting very familiar, which is always good.

Michelle (00:16.26)

Yeah, for sure. So I'd love to have you share your story, your background story, which I always love hearing how you got into the work that you're doing today.

Dr. Kelsey (00:23.346)

That's it.

Yeah, amazing. Well, it started with an acne journey, which I feel is very common as a young woman, but I had really horrible cystic acne. And I went through all the traditional medical route of what can you do to help me? It was a 14, 15, 16 year old girl. I was really looking at anything to make my skin clear. So,

I was really just routinely offered various forms of birth control and some different antibacterial creams. And anytime I went on birth control or any of the birth controls they switched me on to, I never felt great. I was incredibly nauseous for a good portion of the month. It was really impacting my quality of life. But like I said, my skin felt like my number one priority. So I just sort of like suffered through that for many, many years.

Michelle (01:07.812)

Mm.

Dr. Kelsey (01:22.158)

And then I actually saw a naturopath in my journey once I was probably 19 or 20. And I just had one appointment with her. And it was like finally being heard after so many years of feeling like no one was taking me seriously of, you know, she's just another.

that doesn't like her skin, like nothing crazy. And it wasn't, you know, this huge, profound like skin clearing experience either, but it was something that made me really start to question my journey and route in terms of how, what I wanted to do with my life. I knew, I always knew I wanted to be in medicine and help people. I just wasn't fully sure at that point what that really looked like. And so it was my first introduction to naturopathic medicine.

And it felt really lovely. And I just kind of kept going through I thought I was going to be a pharmacist kept going through the motions of like going through that journey. And when that didn't work out, I had this like light bulb moment of like, well, I really liked that. Like, why don't I see you know what that's all about. And the stars sort of aligned that I had all the prerequisites to apply the applications were open, it all kind of worked out really well. And I landed myself.

Michelle (02:18.788)

well.

Dr. Kelsey (02:41.038)

in naturopathic college very shortly after I graduated. And fast forward a few years, I then had another experience in the medical community that pertained to my fertility. And it was my like last ditch effort in my hormonal birth control phase of again, trying to figure out my skin. And I was told that we would likely struggle, I'd likely struggle to get pregnant whenever the time came. Here's another.

you know, birth control prescription, like, see you later. And that was sort of the breaking point for me of like, okay, at that moment, it wasn't like, hugely about the fertility piece, though that was, you know, a big factor for me of like, my gosh, you know, I have to have this conversation with my boyfriend, who's now my husband, but

you know, what is that gonna look like and where the heck do I go from here? And it really propelled me into the field of women's health medicine in general. But I also felt very fortunate that I got this warning when I was young that my fertility is something I need to pay attention to. And a lot of women don't get that, right? We often don't.

Michelle (03:53.86)

Mm -hmm.

Dr. Kelsey (03:54.446)

get to even start having these conversations until sometimes you're six months into trying and then you're like, what the heck, it's not easy, what's going on? And now we're learning, whereas I, you know, my journey wasn't awesome, but I was blessed with this opportunity to really dig into that piece many years before we were even ready. And I attribute that to our very fortunate success down the road.

Michelle (04:00.452)

Right. Yeah.

Dr. Kelsey (04:20.558)

of being able to set my body up for success and have those conversations. And I was obviously already embedded in a community that took a very natural whole body focused approach. And when I came out of school, I knew that that's where I was meant to kind of put my expertise was in helping couples, A, hopefully, you know, create content and get the word out there that like we should be having these conversations.

earlier than when we're even ready, but be okay, if you're not getting the support on your fertility experience in mainstream medicine, like guess what, there's other options. And that's how Fertility Confidence Method came to be.

Michelle (04:50.212)

Yeah.

Michelle (05:05.604)

That's awesome. We have very similar stories. We talked about that before. And if I might ask, what were they basing the fertility, well, what they were perceiving as fertility issues on?

Dr. Kelsey (05:09.678)

I see you. I see you.

Dr. Kelsey (05:19.534)

Yeah. Yeah, I was trying to, it was a botched IUD insertion, which if anyone listening has ever, you know, had an IUD put in or unfortunately had a similar experience to me, it was not awesome. So there was a lot of like medical trauma that came out of that appointment just as a whole. But she kept telling me that like my uterus was a funny shape. It wasn't.

Michelle (05:26.436)

Mm -hmm.

Michelle (05:40.772)

wow. Yeah.

Dr. Kelsey (05:48.814)

the way that it should be, that there was something wrong with it. And it was quite literally just based off that, you know, assessment alone. There was never an ultrasound done. And I was 21. Like, I didn't know any better at the time to like ask more questions or get more knowledge at that moment. I did seek that out down the line and was told like, you know, yes, there are factors here, but like,

let's just try and see what happens. And I had put my body in a very, you know, privileged stance at that point of like, I had years to work on egg quality and balance my hormones, you know, coming off of birth control, I actually had quite a few hormonal issues with that, that the birth control was just masking for me this whole time, right? So I had years to fix that.

Michelle (06:36.516)

Yeah.

Dr. Kelsey (06:43.15)

But the physical piece that they made like a big stink about truly at the end of the day, I don't think was as big of a factor as they made it seem, which is another big piece of the story of like getting factual information into the hands of women so that we're not, you know, walking around thinking we're barren because I spent a good portion of my 20s assuming that because that's how it was explained to me. It wasn't really.

Michelle (07:10.148)

Yeah.

Dr. Kelsey (07:11.246)

discussed in an appropriate manner, right?

Michelle (07:14.98)

Totally. And I've heard people say, you know, they've been told, you have PCOS, you're likely to have issues getting pregnant. You're going to have a hard time. Like really, it's just, just give that information to somebody, get that in their mind and then let them leave the office. Yeah. Yeah. There is a thought.

Dr. Kelsey (07:23.598)

Yeah.

Dr. Kelsey (07:30.798)

Yeah, let's actually help them. What does that that conversation can happen in a far more appropriate manner that supportive versus like you're going to struggle. It's like, well, okay, we know this is here. We know that this has the potential to decrease fertility rates. So let's, you know, dig deeper, find the root cause work on that. So that's not your story. Instead of just

Michelle (07:44.132)

Mm -hmm.

Michelle (07:58.084)

Yeah.

Dr. Kelsey (07:58.702)

putting women on birth control and saying like, when you wanna have kids, we'll just see what happens is kind of the route with PCOS. It's the route with endometriosis as well often, any sort of like period concern. That's sort of how we tackle it, unfortunately.

Michelle (08:03.812)

Totally.

Michelle (08:08.676)

Mm -hmm.

Michelle (08:16.1)

Yeah, it is unfortunate, but it is out there, which is why I like getting this message out for people. I've had naturopathic doctors on before, but somebody might be just kind of stumbling upon this podcast. I would love for you to just give an overview on how that's different than mainstream medicine and how you guys approach really the body and like health.

Dr. Kelsey (08:26.35)

Mm -hmm.

Dr. Kelsey (08:38.446)

Yeah. Yeah. I love to explain it in a way of like, in terms of like a general practitioner, we're not vastly different, but we have different tools in our toolkit. So we still learn a very similar education as your like standard GP, obviously, when we're getting into like more specialty realms, that's a different journey. But we are more focused on looking at the body as a whole and getting down to the root cause versus treating the symptom, which tends to be how mainstream medicine approaches the majority of complaints, right? I often call it it's reactive healthcare when we're going that route. It's like, I have a problem, this might fix that problem. And if that works, cool.

we're not gonna dig any deeper. And if that doesn't, we might then assess different. Whereas with naturopathic medicine, we really don't wanna be just putting band -aids on things. We wanna be getting down to the root cause and understanding like, why is this happening? And what is our body trying to tell us? And the reality is, is that a lot of times with hormones, for example,

we, you know, there's supplements and things we can all read about and blogs and see on TikTok. But at the end of the day, if it's your gut, that's the problem. Like none of those things are going to help you. So we want to just pick away at the pieces and see in the layers of the body versus just looking superficially at the front. And then we use our different tools. So for me, for example, and not all NDs are going to

hold the same value, but it's all about gold standard of care for me. So I'm not anti -pharmaceutical. I'm not anti -mainstream medicine. A lot of my clients work with fertility clinics still. I think there really needs to be a synergistic approach between Western medicine and alternative care. I think that's the way of the future to lessen the burden on mainstream medicine truly, but we're going to come in and look at, okay,

Dr. Kelsey (10:53.006)

How are you eating? How are you sleeping? What's your stress like? Are you moving your body? Like there's so many fundamental pieces of health that don't really get talked about in mainstream medicine. And for two reasons, one, they're not trained in that realm. You know, their nutrition training is like a day or something like that. Like it's not a lot.

Michelle (11:06.084)

Mm -hmm.

Dr. Kelsey (11:19.47)

They don't learn about supplements unless they're pharmaceutical branded and they don't have the time, right? Like here in Ontario, we have quote unquote free healthcare, but your appointments are like seven to 10 minutes and then they got to see the next person and the next person. I know it's like that in many places. So we're now not getting the time to have these fundamental conversations. It really is just how quick can I fix the problem?

So as an ND, I have the flexibility of having longer appointments if I'm in private practice and spending the time and doing the digging. And I have the extra training to put the pieces of the puzzle together from a whole body systems approach.

Michelle (12:06.404)

And how do you uncover it? Do you do different testing? Like what's the difference between the testing that you would run versus the testing that people would get more mainstream?

Dr. Kelsey (12:13.71)

Yeah.

Dr. Kelsey (12:17.454)

Yeah, we run a lot of blood work with our clients, which is similar to what, you know, your fertility clinic would run. But I do find that in the fertility realm specifically, lab assessment is still very surface level. Like your first kind of look at, I'm walking into the clinic, my first appointment, they're going to do some testing. It's still not deep enough for the majority of couples. So we're then getting that unexplained tag instead of actually going down that next rabbit hole. So we dig a little bit deeper just with a variety of labs looking at nutrient deficiencies and blood sugar management and things like that, that the clinics don't often look at first and foremost, unless there's like a big glaring red flag in your health history, then they might. And then we do sometimes use some various functional testing, it depends who I'm working with. So,

And for me with testing, I really wanna make sure that we're using resources, we're spending money and we're ordering tests that are going to change the treatment protocol. So I'm always very strategic there with like what makes sense per couple in terms of what we wanna look at. And then if any of you listen to the Fertility Confidence Podcast or follow me, you'll know I'm very passionate about male fertility. And so regardless of where you're at in your journey,

It's not all about you and your partner needs a semen analysis. Even if you're one month in, doesn't matter. We need to be uncovering that as well. So if that's not something that's been done early on, and usually if a couple isn't in the fertility clinic realm yet, I find that their doctor might run them some labs, but their partners are kind of just left off to the side for a while. And in our world, that's not okay. It's a whole couple approach. We want to see both factors.

Michelle (13:45.572)

I'm going to go ahead and close the video.

Michelle (14:07.876)

Mm -hmm.

Michelle (14:12.036)

Do you typically see both at the same time every time you speak to people?

Dr. Kelsey (14:17.358)

Yeah, we want to, yeah, we use a very whole couple approach. So I want to make sure that we're not missing something. And I've missed things before by not having their partner in on the assessment or doing that testing or having those conversations and then having them down the line and being like, damn, we just like wasted so much time by not doing this earlier. So

Michelle (14:26.884)

Mm -hmm.

Dr. Kelsey (14:43.342)

Right from the get -go, like I said, no matter how long you've been trying, no matter if you've had kids previously or not, we wanna see those numbers. And at the very least, we wanna get partners involved in prenatal care, even while we wait for a semen analysis, because sperm's 50 % of the equation. And all the things we talk about from female perspective and egg quality and blood sugar and balancing hormones, we could literally...

Michelle (14:56.964)

Mm -hmm.

Michelle (15:02.052)

Yeah.

Dr. Kelsey (15:12.462)

flip that script to men and it's equally equally as important. So that's another big piece that's missing in the conversation right now.

Michelle (15:21.06)

Yeah, it's true. And what do you find is a core reason for men having sperm quality issues or even motility and count? Like what are some of the factors that you've seen impacting that?

Dr. Kelsey (15:40.27)

Yeah, I think they need to do more research in the overall why, but we've seen in the data that in the last 40, 50 years, sperm numbers have decreased a significant amount, and they're decreasing at a rate of something like 2 .5 % a year right now. So there's a huge issue happening. And the reality is, is I don't think we'll ever fully know why, but I think we can make some assumptions.

Michelle (15:58.66)

That's crazy.

Dr. Kelsey (16:09.582)

One of those assumptions being our environment is very different than it was 50 years ago. We're exposed to more chemicals, toxins, pesticides, radiation, and they need to do more data into that. There's a recent study that's kind of circulating right now about glyphosate being found in semen specifically. And so now we're starting to see direct correlations, but there's already lots of research in men who have

high levels of parabens or phthalates in their urine having lower sperm quality and count numbers. So we know that environmental toxins are likely a culprit of the global decrease. And I do think that stress is probably a contributing factor. Life is different now. We live in a very go, go, go society. If you're not hustling, you're not winning. And I think we don't take...

Michelle (16:46.244)

Mm -hmm.

Dr. Kelsey (17:08.686)

enough, you know, as we could have this whole conversation for women as well. But, you know, cortisol is in men and cortisol impacts many things. And there's a really fascinating study that looked at men who lived in like war zones and men who like college men, for example, who had to write exams.

Michelle (17:15.012)

Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Dr. Kelsey (17:31.758)

And they did see a decrease in those time periods in their sperm numbers. So we know that stress plays a factor. So that's my assumption right now. Like I said, I don't know if we'll ever fully, it's so multifaceted that I'm not sure we'll ever have like a clear answer, but I think environment is playing a role. And I do think that stress is likely playing a role and we can couple in, you know, with our environment, food quality.

Michelle (17:31.812)

Mm.

Michelle (17:40.676)

Mm -hmm.

Michelle (17:47.524)

Yeah, for sure.

Dr. Kelsey (18:01.71)

Overall has gone down, processed food and the access to processed food and our consumption of sugar has gone up over the years. All of these things, they're all playing a really big factor in not just how a male's body makes sperm, but testosterone levels, which are also important for sperm production.

Michelle (18:09.828)

huh.

Michelle (18:23.364)

Yeah, a couple of things came to mind. I actually remember reading something about sperm production and count relating very much to nervous system imbalances, which really kind of speaks to the stress aspect of it. But also, I mean, you see, I see guys carrying their phones in their front pocket.

Dr. Kelsey (18:34.254)

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Yeah, totally.

Dr. Kelsey (18:44.142)

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Michelle (18:44.9)

It's got to play a role. I mean, we're, you know, we know that that's what's happening recently is that like technology is increasing and there's so many more waves that we're exposed to that we have not been exposed to before.

Dr. Kelsey (18:57.838)

Yeah, we need more research for sure. I'm always scouring for EMF data because I get asked all the time, right? And I'm like, we don't, we know a little, but we don't know a lot. Like, we don't know enough to be like, everyone put it all away. Like, this is the culprit, right? But but that is one really easy recommendation, like just in case that we can give and we know that phones are giving off, you know,

Michelle (19:05.284)

Yeah.

Michelle (19:12.292)

Mm -hmm.

Dr. Kelsey (19:24.334)

lots of things and we also know that they get warm, right? And testicular heat is a big factor. And so I'm in Southern Ontario and yeah, yeah, no kidding. Yeah, just put it in your back pocket. That's what I tell my clients. I say, if you're moving around, put in your back pocket. When you get there, when you get to wherever you're going, if you can take it out of your pocket and put on the table, just do that.

Michelle (19:29.892)

Yeah.

Michelle (19:33.956)

I would say be careful anyway, even if you don't have the data. I mean, don't wait for the data to be careful. Yeah, I see the same thing.

Dr. Kelsey (19:52.558)

Like just get in the habit of not always having to have it in your pocket. And that was something I really had to train my husband with too, because he would just leave his phone in his front pocket all the time. And I was like, we just, just, it's super simple. You just have to change your habit. And it feels weird at first, sure. But overall, like, and not just in the fertility journey, but it is likely causing testicular damage. And so when we're thinking whole health long -term,

Michelle (19:53.092)

Yeah.

Michelle (20:04.132)

Yeah.

Michelle (20:09.54)

Yes.

Dr. Kelsey (20:22.094)

We don't want that either, right? Because now we're gonna have testosterone issues and now we've got all the fun side effects of that as well.

Michelle (20:24.932)

Nope.

Michelle (20:30.564)

I just remember a couple of years, and this is before it was as strong as it is now. I remember seeing this maybe even like 2008, 2009. There was a girl and her mom that went on the Dr. Oz show. And the girl at the time, I don't know if you remember, sometimes girls would put their cell phones in their bra. She would always put it on her right.

Dr. Kelsey (20:45.55)

Mm -hmm.

Dr. Kelsey (20:52.942)

Yep.

Michelle (20:55.012)

side of her brow or like one side over the other. And she ended up getting an aggressive tumor, cancer at 18 years old. And she said, there's no way that this naturally happens for an 18 year old in the same exact spot that she kept her cell phone. So I want to get this message out. And this is years ago, like years and years ago. And that never left my mind. And I was like, you know, that

Dr. Kelsey (21:02.408)

Yeah.

Dr. Kelsey (21:11.886)

Yeah.

Dr. Kelsey (21:17.198)

Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Yep.

Michelle (21:24.068)

is not, it cannot be random. It cannot be just left to chance. And this is way back when, when the technology and the radiation was less than it is today. So I'm thinking people need to pay attention to that.

Dr. Kelsey (21:33.038)

Yeah.

Dr. Kelsey (21:38.446)

Yeah, yeah, there's this whole like when we look at the sperm decrease data, it's starting looking at like 1940, like we didn't have cell phones back then, right? Like that is a big change in our society that has to be playing a role with both men and women in some way. And whether or not we'll see like the good confirmation, like you said, it doesn't matter. Like it's an easy change that we can.

Michelle (21:48.644)

Yeah. Yeah.

Michelle (21:57.796)

Yeah.

Dr. Kelsey (22:06.382)

you know, feel comfortable with the assumption that it's likely not nothing. Even if it's just a small piece, every little bit helps. And so it's not a pill. It's not something you have to buy. You literally just have to move it off of your body.

Michelle (22:10.788)

Yeah.

Michelle (22:16.644)

No.

Right, right. We're such creatures of habit though, so I get it. Like it is hard. It's hard to break a habit. If you're used to something and actually there's science behind it because like you have a certain pattern, certain triggers and certain behavior that it feels very like unnatural to change. So, you know, it's a known thing, but it's not forever. You're going to eventually shift it. Same thing with diet, you know,

Dr. Kelsey (22:23.694)

Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Kelsey (22:40.174)

Mm.

Michelle (22:48.932)

Diet is very behavioral and that's one thing that I noticed too. It's not something that is just physical. It's not just something that like impacts your nutrition. I mean, yes, it does, but like the behavioral aspect is a big component to it. What have you seen as like pretty common, I guess, lifestyle choices that happen that you feel need to get attention?

when it comes to fertility health from both men and women or both.

Dr. Kelsey (23:23.214)

Yeah, I think like we can talk a lot about the nutrition angle for sure, but a really big one that doesn't get as much attention that actually has fascinating research behind it is sleep. And, and again, kind of in our like higher stress society and our go, go, go lifestyle, we've sacrificed sleep to like fit it all in, right? And,

Michelle (23:37.22)

Hmm.

Michelle (23:46.948)

Mm -hmm.

Dr. Kelsey (23:48.238)

From a male side of things, we have research showing men who sleep less than seven and a half hours a night have lower sperm numbers and poor quality. And we also see by increasing sleep, those numbers actually improve. So it's not just the detriment, but by actually improving the habit, we see improvement, which is what we want at the end of the day. And we see similar patterns with women.

Michelle (23:58.436)

Mm -hmm.

Michelle (24:03.588)

wow.

Dr. Kelsey (24:14.766)

as well in terms of hormone disruption and cortisol and cortisol is an umbrella hormone, right? So it's going to impact everything. So I think that that's a big piece for a lot of couples where they're like, I feel like I'm doing everything. But if we're still, you know, lying in bed, scrolling on our phones or watching shows till midnight or later, and then getting up to start our day at like six, six, 37, you're and you, you know, you've always done that. So it just, it's a habit. It just,

feels normal in your body to live off five, six hours of sleep, but you're likely not getting enough deep or REM sleep in that timeframe. And that long -term is going to contribute to hormonal dysregulation, but it also can be impacting your fertility journey from a root cause perspective if it's impacting cortisol in that way. So sleep is always like a sneaky one, I feel, where people kind of, when they come in and work with us and we start talking about it, they're like,

Michelle (24:52.74)

Mm -hmm.

Dr. Kelsey (25:13.838)

I never thought of that. And it often, women definitely have sleep issues and things to work on, but it almost always is like, yeah, I sleep well, but my husband stays up till like one, two in the morning and he's a night owl, right? Like that's just his normal and that's his habit. And it's not a quick switch to go to bed earlier because your body's not used to it.

Michelle (25:15.108)

Yeah.

Michelle (25:36.452)

Right, yeah.

Dr. Kelsey (25:39.694)

I notice that all the time. I don't know if you notice this, Michelle, but like if I have a couple late nights and then I'm like, okay, I gotta go to bed like at a normal time. I'll just, my body's like, well, you're not ready for sleep. Like I thought we were staying up late now, right? It becomes a bit of a struggle. This was me last night. I'm like, we were away for the weekend. I was like, okay, I really need to get some sleep. And my body's like, do, do, do. So it takes time. So if you're working on sleep, we don't want you going from.

Michelle (25:52.196)

Yeah. Yes. Yep. It's true. Yeah.

Michelle (26:02.34)

Yeah.

Dr. Kelsey (26:08.046)

Midnight to be like, okay now you go to bed at 930 because you're probably gonna lie there very Frustrated and then the frustration is just gonna keep you awake so I usually tell people like go back in 15 minute increments every few days or even every week and just work yourself back into that more like appropriate Crocadian rhythm time frame because we all can go to bed at 9 930

Michelle (26:11.748)

Right. Yeah.

Dr. Kelsey (26:36.59)

What's happening for our night owls is they're pushing past their natural sleep signals and getting a surge of cortisol around 10, 10 .30. And once you get that and your body's like, we're not sleeping. Okay. Like, let me help you know. Right. And then you're like, well, why to wake? So now you're just paying up later. And so we need to find everyone's sweet spot is a little bit different, but in general, like most humans,

Michelle (26:51.908)

Yeah, and then you wake up.

Michelle (26:56.42)

Right.

Dr. Kelsey (27:05.134)

do better being asleep before 1030. And for some people, that's really early. So it takes time to sort of shift that back. But we do see in the data that longer and better quality sleep improves fertility parameters, which is really like simple thing to change.

Michelle (27:26.756)

my God, I feel like that by itself is a game changer because it's going to also impact what you eat the next day. If you're tired, you tend to go for sugar and it impacts how like, you know, your cravings. So it's such a cascade of events when you're not getting the rest that you need. And then it also goes back to the nervous system because your body's able to regulate or rejuvenate and really heal itself too.

Dr. Kelsey (27:31.758)

Mm -hmm.

Dr. Kelsey (27:35.662)

Yeah, yeah. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Dr. Kelsey (27:50.702)

Yep. Totally.

Michelle (27:56.644)

when you're going through that and clean out hormones. And I mean, there's so many things that sleep does and I love sleep. I really do. But I've always been a night owl. And you know what, my hormones and my menstrual cycle was very regular when I was younger and I had a very irregular circadian rhythm. So it really was thrown off and looking back on like it makes a lot of sense. But I think the devices too, like having it at night.

Dr. Kelsey (28:02.83)

Yeah.

Dr. Kelsey (28:19.278)

Hmm.

Michelle (28:22.82)

those things are giving your brain a signal that it's daytime when it's really not. And that's why one of the, you know, sleep hygiene, like lowering the light so that you're not getting bright light and it's not confusing your brain. But also like what you said, I loved what you said about 15 minutes, because I think that the big part about it is really wrapping your mind around the, the,

Dr. Kelsey (28:38.862)

Yeah.

Michelle (28:49.38)

idea, you know, we sort of like judge the idea of like, my God, before 10 o 'clock, no way or 1030. Like that's crazy. So it's kind of like the judgment that we have on that seems like that's not me. And so I think being aware of that, that block that you could have very easily and then just easing into it, but not ruling it out because it could really impact. I mean, cause we'll do anything else. Like why not?

Dr. Kelsey (28:55.982)

Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Kelsey (29:06.222)

Yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Kelsey (29:16.846)

Yeah. Yeah. It's free. I'm trying to tell people it's free. Like we don't have to do anything crazy. We just, it's going to take time and we have to be okay with that. And we have, we're okay with flexibility because you don't have to be perfect to get pregnant. You're, you're going to have some late nights and then you're probably going to have some retraining of your brain to do. Like I was easily falling asleep by nine 30, 10 o 'clock before I went away this weekend. And then now,

Michelle (29:17.54)

Look into that as well, because it's huge. It's free. Yeah. Yeah.

Michelle (29:28.964)

Yeah.

Dr. Kelsey (29:46.862)

like, okay, now we gotta start over and that's okay. Like, nothing wrong with that and there's gonna be times where that's worth it to you to go back to your night owl tendencies but the consistency of the majority of the time we are getting to bed at an appropriate hour for your cricketing rhythm and for your hormones and giving your body the time that it needs like for the nervous system like you said to rejuvenate and recoup and.

Michelle (29:49.316)

Yeah, right. Yeah.

Michelle (29:57.604)

Yeah.

Dr. Kelsey (30:14.67)

and deal with all the stuff from the day before. And that really does bleed into your decision -making the next day, your nutrition, your cravings, but also your ability to handle stress in general. So that I think is a huge win for a lot of women and men, especially if we're identifying on our intake forms that...

Michelle (30:18.532)

Yeah.

Michelle (30:23.555)

It does. Yeah.

Michelle (30:31.236)

100%.

Dr. Kelsey (30:42.126)

they're really, really stressed and then they're only sleeping five to six hours a night. It's like, well, we're never gonna be able to manage the stress that you are having unless we give your body the tools to do so. And sleep is a really big one.

Michelle (30:58.5)

Yeah. It's like you need energy to cope with stress. Right. Well, to conceive, I mean, think about all the mitochondria we have in the egg cells and the, you know, like it's there for a reason. I mean, we need it. And, and actually on this topic, let's talk about melatonin because I know that melatonin is actually really important for egg quality, possibly sperm quality. I know more for egg quality. What are your thoughts on that?

Dr. Kelsey (31:01.358)

Yeah, you need energy to live, so just go to sleep. Yes.

Dr. Kelsey (31:18.35)

Hmm.

Dr. Kelsey (31:27.822)

Yeah, I love melatonin. The IVF research is good in terms of seeing higher numbers of embryos form. So we make that assumption from an antioxidant perspective that it's improving egg quality, which we want. But we also see melatonin improving implantation rates in IVF pregnancy. So we're actually not just seeing.

a clinical pregnancy or we're not just seeing an embryo development improvement, we're actually seeing clinical pregnancy rate improvement. So we like melatonin and how I approach it is like, this is not for sleep. So it's not just for people who don't sleep well because the majority of time people who don't sleep well, it's actually not a melatonin problem. There's usually more of a sleep hygiene issue that has to be dealt with or stress, right?

Michelle (32:12.004)

Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm. Yes. Mm -hmm.

Dr. Kelsey (32:18.094)

So I get asked that a lot, I was asked that just last week actually, like you put melatonin in my plan, but like I sleep well, do I still need to take this? And it's like, yeah, we're actually not using it for sleep. Maybe it might help you get deeper sleep, awesome. If it makes you feel groggy and gross in the morning, some people just can't hack melatonin, I can't. It does not, it makes my sleep opposite. So some people react poorly to it.

And if that's the case, it's just not the product for you on your fertility journey. And that's okay. No, there's lots of other things we can do. But the research is compelling enough. I'd love to see more male research because we haven't or I haven't seen a ton or anything really like pushing melatonin from a sperm perspective yet. But given the power of the antioxidant potential that it has, it wouldn't surprise me if it was also a really good option for men as well.

Michelle (32:49.636)

Right, right.

Michelle (33:15.012)

Yeah, cause we know that both men and women can benefit from antioxidants in general and really antioxidants work as an anti -ager. I mean, it's funny cause if you think about fertility health, just think anti -aging, like that's the protocol. And we can luckily, I mean, there are definitely things that we can do to actually change the biological clock, which is fascinating.

Dr. Kelsey (33:19.534)

Mm -hmm. Yep.

Dr. Kelsey (33:27.79)

Right. Yeah. We're literally wanting to turn the clock back a little bit.

Dr. Kelsey (33:41.198)

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Michelle (33:43.204)

Awesome. I mean, this is great conversation. We can keep talking. And I love, I really love the things that you brought up because they're important, you know, especially like the sperm, which gets ignored often. Sleep was another thing really that gets ignored often. And then the question about melatonin, I love melatonin and I love about what I love about it is that it's non habit forming. So you can get off of it and it's not going to impact your sleep.

Dr. Kelsey (34:08.398)

Hmm.

Yeah, and people are always afraid about that. So I think that's a really important piece.

Michelle (34:13.188)

Yeah, yeah. For sure, no doubt. So for people who are listening and want to hear more about you, you have a great Instagram also, by the way, with lots of amazing content. So how can people find you?

Dr. Kelsey (34:23.566)

Thank you.

Dr. Kelsey (34:27.694)

Yeah, come find me on Instagram at Fertility Confidence Method. And then I also host the Fertility Confidence Podcast. So there's tons of resources and information inside there. I do have a on -demand webinar that you can download. It's an hour long. We talk all about the fundamentals and five strategies to build your fertility confidence. So you can grab that at downloads .kelseyduncan .com slash on -demand.

Michelle (34:54.212)

Awesome. Well, Kelsey, this is such a great conversation and we definitely hit it off from the beginning. I agree on a lot of what you talk about. 

Dr. Kelsey (35:01.654)

Thank you.

Dr. Kelsey (35:13.486)

Mm.

Michelle (35:21.668)

But thank you so much for coming on today. 

Dr. Kelsey (35:26.734)

thanks for having me, Michelle.

EP 291 Demystifying Non-toxic Living | Sophia Gushee Ruan

Sophia Ruan Gushée is a nontoxic lifestyle expert and author of A to Z of D-Toxing:

The Ultimate Guide to Reducing Our Toxic Exposures and several detox

workbooks. She is praised by experts in both medical and wellness fields for her

practical approach to avoiding toxins and cultivating a healthier home environment.

Sophia served on the Brown University School of Public Health Advisory Council and Well + Good Council. A graduate of Brown University and Columbia Business

School, Sophia has helped thousands of people enjoy healthier lives by simplifying

nontoxic living, while protecting the ease and convenience of modern life.

https://www.ruanliving.com/nontoxic-cleaning-guide-may

Website & Social media links (Facebook, instagram, twitter)

- Instagram: @ruanliving, https://www.instagram.com/ruanliving/

- Facebook: Ruan Living, https://www.facebook.com/ruanliving

- LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/srgushee/

- TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@ruanliving

For more information about Michelle, visitwww.michelleoravitz.com

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook:https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

Transcript:

Michelle (00:01)

Welcome to the podcast, Sophia.

Sophia Gushee (00:03)

Thank you for having me.

Michelle (00:05)

It's a pleasure to have you and to talk about something that I feel is so important. It's definitely like an uphill battle. I think that a lot of people are facing, but can be done in a easier way and approached in easier way. And I'm really happy to have you on to talk about this important topic. But before we get started, I would love for you to introduce yourself and give us a background and what got you into the work that you're doing.

Sophia Gushee (00:34)

I'd be happy to. I never could have imagined that I would be focused on simplifying non -toxic living. I grew up in upstate New York, always interested in eating healthy. I grew up in a tennis loving family. I exercised a lot since I was really young. And yet I always felt poor energy, felt really bad. And since...

People always said to me, you're the healthiest person I know. And I felt really bad. I just thought something was wrong with me. I ended up after graduating from college, working on Wall Street for about 10 years in distressed investing. So I would focus on high risk, high return investments with imperfect information. And my job was to figure out.

what are the value creation strategies we can execute to create the most value? And when I became a mom at age 34, I started accidentally learning about toxic chemicals, heavy metals, and radiation from what I was buying for my infant. And since I never heard about this before, my like,

highly respected physicians never put it on my radar. My reaction ended up being very similar to what I did professionally with distress investing. I had to figure out are there credible sources to back up what I'm reading? What are the good facts? Why do the physicians not know about this? And what's a reasonable level of concern?

always I ended up finding enough information that made me want to make a healthier choice. And I ended up developing a platform and a lifestyle to simplify how to make safer choices with shopping and simple things you do at home. So Ruan Living is based on the easy things you can do to reduce your toxic exposures. I ended up

spending about eight years sharing the science that I learned about that I wish I knew sooner in a book that was published in 2015 and that's called A to Z of Detoxing, The Ultimate Guide to Reducing Our Toxic Exposures. But since I never wanted to read a book about this, I just wanted an informed mom to tell me what I should know and what I could do in as little time as possible. And I never found that resource. I've been

building offerings to serve that desire of my younger self because learning how to not buy toxic exposures to bring into your home should not be as hard as it's been.

Michelle (03:40)

Oh my God, when you said simplify, I'm like, yes, that is exactly what we need because I find, and I found this when I first started working with fertility and of course learned about what the impacts were from these endocrine disruptors and the toxins that were exposed to from the chemicals that are in our products to our like healthcare and not healthcare them.

I mean, the clean products in our, not clean products, I don't know why I'm getting, I'll delete this part. Cleaning products in our house, you know, there's so many different ways that it sneaks in, but it also in receipts, you know, things that you would never even consider. And then also pesticides and I mean, you can just like, you can keep going and EMFs too. That's another, that's a whole other topic.

Sophia Gushee (04:15)

cleaning products.

Michelle (04:36)

But yeah, we're exposed to a lot of things that we're not supposed to be exposed to. And when I first learned about this, I remember myself feeling overwhelmed, but then also being afraid to overwhelm my patients and my clients, because it can be really overwhelming to hear about. First of all, it makes you feel bad and then worried like, well, what happened up until this point? You know what I mean? I've been doing all these things and not realizing that I'm harming my body.

But secondly, how does one get started? You know, that it feels like such an uphill battle and it feels like it's so overwhelming. I think that that was one of the things that I always struggled with in explaining things to my patients.

Sophia Gushee (05:21)

It's hard. Not everyone wants to know. And so I don't push it on people. But for those who are curious, I want them to know what I have to offer so that they can learn to modify things in their lifestyle and their purchases that they don't mind making. And the thing...

Michelle (05:25)

Mm -hmm.

Sophia Gushee (05:49)

The main thing is, I forgot to finish a point I started with. Even though I felt really poor energy most of my life, it wasn't until after I started detoxing my home and detoxing my diet and other things to reduce my toxic exposures that I started to feel better than ever. And this is now during a stage in my life where I don't eat as well as I used to.

I don't exercise as much as I used to. I have three kids, so I've been busy with that and working a ton. I don't sleep as well, and yet I feel better than ever. And I really do believe it's the reduced body burden that I undoubtedly now have. And when I look at images of mice who have been exposed to a lot of bisphenol A,

a popular hormone disrupting chemical found in many household products like plastics. And I see how obese the mouse is in comparison to the control mouse who was not exposed to BPA. I think that's how I felt like all of high school. So what I encourage people to do is to follow an elimination diet. Pick one thing.

one change you don't mind making often cleaning products is a really good start or your food containers or your pots and pans. Most people don't feel an emotional connection to those things and make a small change. And over time, you're going to feel really good about it, whether you feel better or you're just feeling empowered and you'll feel ready for another change. And over time,

There are a variety of symptoms that are alleviated for a lot of people, whether it's skin issues or energy or other outcomes. A lot of studies actually show that these toxic exposures are influencing reproductive health and assisted reproductive technology outcomes. So if you're struggling to get pregnant,

and you want to do everything you can for the healthiest pregnancy outcome possible, then detoxing your home and the other aspects of your life that you can do at a pace that's comfortable for you will be an invaluable investment for yourself and your offspring and also their offspring.

Michelle (08:35)

Absolutely. Actually, let's talk about pots and pans because I feel like that's always a confusing subject. What are good ones that you recommend?

Sophia Gushee (08:47)

I stick to the materials that have been around since before the Industrial Revolution. So cast iron, stainless steel, and glass are the staples in my home. After about 12, 13 years of just those pots and pans, which are black and metal, I went through a period of really missing color. And so I bought a ceramic

Michelle (08:58)

Mm -hmm.

Sophia Gushee (09:17)

cast iron skillet thinking at the time based on my research that that was probably safe and then after spending probably about $200, very expensive pan, but it was a very pretty pink. I read that it could have lead in it and so my practical approach is I'm not going to throw it out. I like seeing the color around. I use it sparingly and

Acidic foods like tomatoes can wear at the coating of cast iron and stainless steel. So you want to try and not like make tomato sauce in those materials. And so I eventually bought glass cookware. And so the glass is for the tomatoes and other acidic foods. But I also use the...

ceramic glazed cast iron sometimes.

Michelle (10:19)

Got it. But the ceramic glazed cast iron, you were saying sometimes it can have lead. Is that what it is?

Sophia Gushee (10:25)

Yeah, studies on ceramics and ceramic glazed cookware have found mixed results. Some of them have found lead and probably other toxic chemicals too. It's just, you know, if they were just testing for lead, that's all they're going to find. But if they tested for a longer list of things, I have no doubt they'd find other things.

Michelle (10:37)

Mm -hmm.

God, I wish they just didn't do this in the first place. So it would make our life so much easier. No, that they didn't put these chemicals in there or these like things that are harmful for the human body.

Sophia Gushee (10:54)

that they don't test.

Well, they serve a purpose. I mean, sometimes these toxic exposures or substances are there accidentally, not intentionally. But sometimes lead is often used in many household products to create a desired color, to create weight in costume jewelry and children's jewelry. So if you think about it, this

Michelle (11:08)

Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Sophia Gushee (11:27)

like let's call it fake jewelry is made out of plastic. That's pretty light to make it feel more weighty, like a real, like, I don't know, heavy gold necklace. Heavy metals are used. And when lead has been replaced, it's often been replaced by cadmium, another heavy metal that is also toxic. So I have a 40 -day home detox that really tries to...

Michelle (11:49)

Mm -hmm.

Sophia Gushee (11:55)

inform your common sense in this way because it's not really practical or effective to avoid chemical by chemical. I started out when I started learning about this topic, I developed a list of chemicals to avoid. So I'd read product labels to avoid BPA or phthalates or parabens. And then I just realized that substitute chemicals are

Michelle (12:07)

Mm -hmm.

Sophia Gushee (12:24)

not always safer, sometimes they're more harmful. So BPA, for example, is a chemical that is used in the inner lining of canned foods and plastics on receipts, as you said earlier. In trying to use a safer formula or less controversial one, manufacturers would replace it with things like BPS or others.

and scientists have found that BPS can be even more harmful. And so I ended up, you know, it is, we're now shifting, like governments are shifting towards regulating families of chemicals, which is much more impactful. For example, California is looking to regulate the family of forever chemicals, not just specific ones, like specific forever chemicals, like

Michelle (12:56)

Oh, wow.

Mm -hmm.

Sophia Gushee (13:22)

PFOA or PFOS. But I actually in my book, A to Z of Detoxing, identified what I call household repeat offenders. So as you get to know materials or just things like, like I was saying, colors in your home, in like costume jewelry and ceramics, and understand that colors are used.

for example, lead and cadmium used to create weight or lead is used to deepen, I think it's red or orange. I specify this in the 40 day home detox program. It just tells your common sense, oh, that's high risk. Most likely there's a heavy metal in there to create that rich deep color or to create weight for plastic. But...

Michelle (14:10)

Mm -hmm.

Sophia Gushee (14:19)

I forgot your question.

Michelle (14:20)

Oh, no. I mean, it's just, it's just, yeah, it's all, it's all important. Like I think it's all important because when it comes to really understanding and kind of navigating through this, it could be very overwhelming. And one of the things is like you were saying, when you're focusing on one ingredient at a time, I mean, who can remember all of those things? That's the reality. Another thing that comes to my mind too, is you would think like,

Sophia Gushee (14:23)

Pots and pans, lots of hands.

Yeah.

Michelle (14:48)

water or like a sparkling water, I know a lot of them have forever chemicals in them.

Sophia Gushee (14:56)

Yeah, water is tricky. Bottled water will have lots of micro plastics or nano plastics if it's in a plastic bottle, but even tap water can get contaminated through the pipes and the kitchen fixtures. So I think it's really worth investing in a water filter that is comfortable for your budget.

Michelle (15:06)

Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Sophia Gushee (15:24)

Any level of filtration is better than none. But just going back to pots and pans, just so listeners know there's a resource. I have a blog on my website that's the most popular blog on my website and it's on pots and pans. And so I list the specific ones that I use for my home because it is, I research every product I can. I find it.

Michelle (15:26)

Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Sophia Gushee (15:51)

not only important but intellectually really interesting and even some stainless steel pots and pans, you know, they're not all the same and glass is not all the same. So I try and make it really easy for people to click and buy if that's what they want to do or share my thought process so people can do their own research.

Michelle (16:01)

Mm -hmm.

Right.

That's awesome. So you do have a lot of resources on specific brands or what you've looked into that is clean. Like another thing is spatulas, you know, they say that the silicone spatulas are better because they could withstand high heat, but then sometimes they, they overlay rubber, which isn't good. So I don't know. What are your thoughts on that?

Sophia Gushee (16:43)

I'd like to use the example of chocolate chip cookies. There's so many formulas, there's so many recipes for chocolate chip cookies. I grew up with chocolate chip cookies being made of white... Well, if you think about it, I grew up with chocolate chip cookies being really unhealthy. They were made of white sugar, white flour, bad oils. And nowadays there's some really great...

Michelle (16:55)

I am now craving chocolate chip cookies.

Sophia Gushee (17:12)

paleo recipes made of almond flour. I'm making it up. I don't know if it's almond flour, but like super healthy flour, healthier sugars, healthier chocolate. It can almost be healthier than most American breakfast options. And that idea is true for plastics, for silicone.

for glass, for stainless steel. It depends on the recipe. And so silicone, I'm skeptical of. I'm sure like ideally medical grade silicone is what you wanna use. So for things like pacifiers or baby bottle nipples, I did my best to find medical grade silicone. For cooking, I avoided silicone and plastics for a while.

Michelle (17:43)

Mm -hmm.

Sophia Gushee (18:07)

I would just use wooden spatulas and metal just when I need it. But you want to be careful not to use metal on cast iron and stainless steel because the scratching of the surface, even if you have nonstick pots and pans, scratches just facilitate the leaching of chemicals and metals into your food. So wood is better. But sometimes, like if you're making pancakes or you want to scoop up an egg,

from your pan then silicone. I finally bought one silicone spatula.

Michelle (18:43)

So yeah, so in certain circumstances, but ultimately would be the best.

Sophia Gushee (18:50)

Wood is ideal. And if I remember correctly, I read this trick to tell if silicone was high risk. And if you bend it, like some bakeware is made of silicone, even a spatula, you can maybe like bend the tip. If you can see, let's say your spatula is a blue silicone. If you see a little white and you bend it, then that's a signal that it might not be the healthiest.

Michelle (19:14)

Right.

Sophia Gushee (19:20)

So let's go.

Michelle (19:20)

Right, because it has rubber inside. Yeah, I remember reading that as well. I was like, oh, that's interesting. So some are just better quality that they're like more thorough or there's a certain grading, right?

Sophia Gushee (19:23)

Yeah.

next.

Yeah, there are love different levels of purity.

Michelle (19:38)

Awesome. And then are there filters you recommend? I know I'm getting into the details, but I know that I have those questions and I think a lot of people do. It's like all those details are things that people know because water is so important. And of course they had Berkey, which was huge. Now they shut down. So like what's next? Yeah, I heard this is what I heard. I mean, I have, I have one and I have one at my office, but I know, but I did actually hear.

Sophia Gushee (19:42)

Yeah, I know, I'm happy to see it.

versus Chess now.

Michelle (20:08)

And I don't know that they had like a lawsuit and they lost. And so they shut it down. So now that there are other companies that distribute them, but you don't know which one's official. So it's kind of, I'm not sure.

Sophia Gushee (20:26)

Excuse me.

I have spent so much time on water filtration and air filtration. I...

Michelle (20:33)

Yeah.

Sophia Gushee (20:40)

This is what I do. I have, I'm so paranoid about what's in the water that I have invested to the best of my ability. And so under our kitchen sink, we have a nine stage water filtration system. So there's reverse osmosis, which removes everything, but one water.

Michelle (20:59)

Mm -hmm.

Sophia Gushee (21:09)

expert explained to me, I'd never heard it before and I couldn't verify it online, but it kind of made sense. One water expert said to me that if you're drinking water that's stripped of everything and therefore unbalanced, as it goes through your body, it's looking to balance itself so it can leach your bones of minerals and take in other ways.

Michelle (21:28)

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Yeah, I heard about that.

Sophia Gushee (21:33)

So that made me really nervous. So I also have other materials in the water filtration system to rebalance the water. There's also activated carbon. And in our country home, we also have, our country home is in an area that has cancer clusters. So I'm even more paranoid about water out there. So I have a whole house water filtration system. So it's about, I think,

Michelle (21:55)

Oh, wow.

Sophia Gushee (22:03)

I don't know how many pounds, like a huge tank of activated carbon in our basement. So all the water entering our home gets filtered through the activated carbon and then distributed throughout the rest of our home, which was important to me at the time I installed it because my young kids were taking long backs. And...

Michelle (22:26)

Mm -hmm.

Sophia Gushee (22:29)

but I still felt like I don't think that's enough, because there's just so much bad activity around our country home with a pharmaceutical company there and like some industrial activity. And so I also installed this nine stage water filtration system under the sink. But if you can't do that for whatever reason, then even a...

picture with activated carbon is better than nothing. When I travel, I have water bottles that have a water filtration system in the water bottle. Because I notice when I travel, I end up not really drinking water because I'm afraid to drink water. And so that's helped. But my kids won't use it. They all have it, but they refuse to drink from it. So I'll keep trying.

Michelle (23:00)

Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

I know the kids don't like to listen to us sometimes, but also when you use that, so you were talking about that charcoal. So that's not reverse osmosis. It's too simple. Right. So it just basically cleans it out with the charcoal.

Sophia Gushee (23:37)

That's not.

the water filter, the water bottle.

Michelle (23:44)

The water, yeah.

No, no, the water filter in the house. You had mentioned that you had the charcoal and then you had the night.

Sophia Gushee (23:51)

The basement has just the activated charcoal. And so that's actually a specific thing you want to ask for because not all charcoal is the same. So you want activated charcoal. And that just absorbs a lot of toxins. But after the water gets distributed through the pipes, it's going to pick up other things from the pipes.

Michelle (23:59)

Okay.

Sophia Gushee (24:18)

But also I don't think the activated charcoal is necessarily getting the forever chemicals or nanoplastics. So that's why I feel crazy talking about this or admitting it, but I then have the nine -stage water filtration system underneath the spout for drinking water. And it's just for drinking water. I don't use it for cooking.

Michelle (24:41)

Mm -hmm. It's not crazy. That's the thing. It's not crazy to want clean water. You know, it's really not. It's just so common to really be exposed to things we shouldn't be exposed to that we have to go out of our way to add all these reinforcements in order to just have clean water, you know, in our life.

Sophia Gushee (25:07)

Plus, I was learning about all the contaminants in water with really young kids and during pregnancies and nursing and knowing how influential these toxic exposures can be to young developing life. I would do anything to protect my children from these endocrine disruptors and neurotoxicants and carcinogens.

So I did my best, but it was really hard to figure out. It really took probably over 10 years because not all the water filtration experts had a holistic understanding of my concern. So it just took many conversations and it took a while to find experts that were informed.

Michelle (26:02)

And are there ones you recommend or do you have anything on your website of which types of water filtration you recommend from like a pitcher to something under your sink?

Sophia Gushee (26:15)

I don't remember if I do in the blog. I have a detox Academy. It's a membership where that's where I am much more personal about the products in my home. I share a lot on the blog too, but I often, I, I often want to be able to provide more context for things because nothing's perfect. So I just want to be able. So in my detox Academy, there's more context for.

Michelle (26:28)

Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

Sophia Gushee (26:44)

the pros and cons of a product, why I chose it. So for example, sunscreen. I reevaluate every year. It's highly complex. When my kids are really young, there is a certain brand of sunscreen that was rated the most non -toxic, but it's a thick white cream. So as my kids became more verbal, they're like, no. And now they're teenage girls. And so,

Michelle (26:48)

Mm -hmm.

Yes, and the kids don't like it. They don't like it. Yeah.

Sophia Gushee (27:14)

branding matters, you know, like there are a lot of things that go into whether a teenage girl is going to reapply or apply sunscreen. So I had to go more toxic with some products. And so I just explain a lot more of those personal things in the detox academy because I was raised being told if you have nothing nice to say, don't say anything at all. And so I just am shy or reserved about.

Michelle (27:17)

Oh yeah.

Mm -hmm, right.

Sophia Gushee (27:43)

talking about brands or products that are more toxic, but in the detox academy, I'll say, you know, this brand has a higher toxicity rating, but I use it because if I don't, then my children won't reapply sunscreen.

Michelle (27:45)

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

But no, it makes sense. I mean, I think it is something that can be addressed in a balanced way because otherwise, I mean, it'll, it'll create your, you know, it'll really create a lot of stress, which I feel like is also toxic. So you got to do it in a way that's balanced and sensible and a way that works.

Sophia Gushee (28:21)

Yeah, it's really important to not aim to be perfect about it and non -toxic does not exist. That's why I often say, like my podcast is called Practical Non -Toxic Living because you also have to enjoy life and that means taking risks and branding.

Michelle (28:30)

Right.

Yeah, it's true.

Sophia Gushee (28:48)

Brings a lot of joy to teenage girls.

Michelle (28:50)

For sure. Well, I'm glad that you're saying that because I think that that is, you know, it's definitely an important aspect to address because I do think that that's what happens. It's like with anything you start to learn about it. You almost become almost like a toxic phobe. It's just like we become germaphobes when we have that microscope that we could see what it looks like, you know, so it starts to get in our minds and we're like, oh my God, I don't want that.

And there's this like high level of resistance. And the truth is we really can't resist all of it. We cannot go completely clean. So it is important to realize that always it's never going to be perfect. And that's okay. I mean, part of it is obviously trying to alleviate the body's load, but it also, another part of it is actually making the body adaptable, you know, so the body adapts because the body knows how to detoxify as well.

I mean, I know there's activated charcoal that people can take as well to help take out the toxins or bind to toxins in the body. So it's a real holistic balance for sure.

Sophia Gushee (29:58)

I really think of it as yoga off the mat. And I just, I support conscious, just conscious choices and whatever you choose, you shouldn't judge yourself. I had a client who was trying to help her mom detox her home, just detox cleaning products. And the mom was so resistant. And finally, after a few years, the mom finally admitted,

Michelle (30:09)

Mm -hmm.

Sophia Gushee (30:28)

I just love my certain perfume and my red lipstick and I'm so afraid you're going to tell me it's so toxic I can't use it. And I said, tell your mom that she can hold on to what she loves and there will be plenty of other changes that she won't mind making. And that's really my philosophy. Hold on to what you love or what brings you great convenience. Let's work together on finding the changes you won't mind making.

Michelle (30:37)

Yeah.

Yeah.

That's actually really important. I mean, I will say like that, you know, my daughter likes this one perfume and, and it's not a non -toxic perfume, but I feel like if I get so strict, it's going to cause the opposite effect. And I said, okay, it's not a big deal. Just put it on your clothes, not on your skin. You know, sometimes you just do it once in a while and it's not like every day. So it's like, I think that that's a great way to look at it. It's just like, it doesn't have to be.

all or nothing and a little bit it's not going to like be the end all be all like make such a big deal.

Sophia Gushee (31:36)

I'm sorry. It was really meaningful to me when I spoke to the former dean of the School of Public Health at Brown University, Bess Marcus, who did a lot of research on behavioral change with smokers, cigarette smokers. And a lot of her research in the 60s and 70s, she ended up using in her visits.

to physicians to educate physicians on what scientists were understanding about the health risks from cigarette smoking. And after a while, a lot of when she would revisit the physicians, they often were really demoralized and they would say, I tell my patients that if they don't stop smoking cigarettes, their chances of lung cancer are gonna be much higher, but they won't quit. So what's the point?

There's no point. And she said, the research shows that a patient, a smoker needs to hear this message at least seven times before the smoker will consider changing. So you have to be among the voice of seven, which helped me so much because if you're trying to educate your children, for example,

Michelle (32:48)

Mm.

Sophia Gushee (33:01)

to know that your goal shouldn't be to get them to stop something right away and listen to you, but just to be among the voices of the messages that will give them the right information or the right goals, then at some point, maybe they'll listen to it, but you really can't control other people. You shouldn't try. It'll just ruin your relationship. And so all we can do is just try and be a voice out there without the expectation of,

Michelle (33:21)

It's true. Yeah, 100%.

It's true.

Sophia Gushee (33:31)

controlling behavior.

Michelle (33:33)

Oh, 100%. I think that you teach and if people want to take it, they take it. If they can't, if they don't want to, you know, we're all given free will. I have a very big proponent of that because it's important to respect that in others. And ultimately it's their decision. Um, but educate, I, I'm really big on, I think that it's so important to educate people and let them know, because then, then you can make an informed decision. However, that decision wants to end up.

but you can make an informed decision because you have information to make that decision. And then if you choose to ignore certain things, that's your choice, but you at least you know before making that decision.

Sophia Gushee (34:14)

Yeah.

Yeah, I just think people have a right to know if you're a health conscious person, then often this is an overlooked pillar of health that can be really empowering.

Michelle (34:29)

of without a doubt. And then let's talk about actually EMFs, because you had mentioned that I've seen that on your list. So EMFs are definitely something that a lot of it's invisible. So I think that sometimes out of sight out of mind, we can't smell it, we can't really hear it. It's like invisible, but we know it's there and we read about it, but sometimes forget about it. And it's something that we use, especially like if you're going to a library, I mean, anywhere that

even a hotel, you know, with all the wifi, it's there in so many places. So talk about the role of EMF and how that can impact reproductive health.

Sophia Gushee (35:14)

I'll start by trying to explain EMFs in a way that can maybe help listeners visualize it, because I think that has helped me. So I now think of EMFs as just radiation. It's just energy. I think of it as energy. And our cell phones, for example, will maybe use energy from a 3G wavelength or

maybe 4G also and 5G and Bluetooth, then cellular, 3G, 4G, 5G, Bluetooth, Wi -Fi, cellular, their energy wavelengths will differ, but also like the, there are other things about the wavelengths that will be different. So Bluetooth, for example, will be something like,

whereas Wi -Fi will maybe be more gentle. And if you think of sound as energy too, but that it's almost like a harsh wavelength, it's pecking at our membranes. So if you have Bluetooth earphones in your ear, the...

Michelle (36:31)

Mm -hmm.

Sophia Gushee (36:42)

that part of your skull is actually really vulnerable. So even if you're not using the earphones, it's open. So the earbuds are still trying to, they still emit energy towards each other through your skull. A wonderful scientist named Debra Davis, she's highly accomplished. She,

Michelle (36:49)

Because it's open. It's open.

Sophia Gushee (37:11)

She was integral in banning smoking on cigarette planes decades ago. She has been, God bless her, she's been pioneering science on how these electromagnetic fields from our technology are affecting our health and development and reproductive health outcomes. Side note, she won a Nobel Prize with

Michelle (37:18)

God bless her.

Sophia Gushee (37:40)

Vice President Al Gore on their work for climate change. So she's an amazing scientist, but she...

I just lost my train of thought.

Michelle (37:55)

That happens to me all the time. We were talking about the earbuds and the yeah.

Sophia Gushee (37:59)

the earbud. She has, uh, she's published a few wonderful books, but she just re -released a book called Disconnect, which explains the science on how radiation from things like our cell phones and laptops are threatening our health and wellbeing. So if listeners want to get a great overview on that, I highly recommend Disconnect. And I also have...

one podcast episode with Debra Davis on the Practical Non -Toxic Living podcast if they want to listen and her executive director is on another one. But she and another great scientist, David Carpenter, were part of a team that filed a lawsuit against the FCC for not considering

the scientific studies, the peer -reviewed scientific studies that have come out since the wireless standards were set in 1996. And the judge ruled in their favor. But the judge said to the FCC, you have these list of things you have to now respond to, but there's no deadline for the FCC to respond by. So progress isn't really going to go anywhere, but at least the judge acknowledged that

standards need to be updated and the FCC needs to consider what scientists have learned since 1996. But studies have shown that laptop radiation and cell phone radiation near like the male reproductive area damages sperm quality. So men should be really mindful of where they place the laptop and...

Michelle (39:44)

Mm -hmm.

Sophia Gushee (39:51)

If you're going to have a cell phone on your body, ideally you don't, but that's really hard to do nowadays. If it is on your body, the perfect solution is to turn off your phone. Most people can't do that. The next best thing is to disable cellular Wi -Fi and Bluetooth. And so I just work on having my family members, my children and my husband use airplane mode to disable those things.

Michelle (40:19)

Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Sophia Gushee (40:21)

And so when you're walking, just know you're taking, you're disconnecting, taking a little break. And then when you need to check your messages, then you can easily enable all that. So that's, that's how I approach EMFs. So male sperm quality, sperm quality is easier to measure than female reproductive health. So even though they're,

scientists don't know how radiation affects our ovaries or the DNA in our reproductive in the ovaries, that doesn't mean that it doesn't cause harm. It's just the studies for women are much more complex.

Michelle (41:10)

Right, right. I mean, if it impacts men, you would imagine, I mean, and then a lot of people put their laptop on their bodies or they put like other devices on their bodies. I've, you know, people have the Apple watch, you know, all the basically the smartwatches and it's constantly on their body. And I, I look at it from a Chinese medicine perspective and how we have energetic meridians and we do have an energetic body around us.

and it's intelligent. So having anything interfere with that definitely impacts our bodies and our vitality. And, you know, so I definitely think about that. And let me ask you, what are your thoughts? Because some people say the 5G is like the most strong radiation. So I always have my kids opt in for LTE.

And I do myself on my phone because I'm like, okay, maybe it's a little less radiation. Maybe it's not as good quality, but like the radiation is a little lower. I mean, I don't even know anymore.

Sophia Gushee (42:17)

They, again, all the like 3G, 4G, 5G, they're just different layers of energy. And so I think of the home as a sea of radiation. So the more you can take out or silence, the better for you, the less burden on your body. So it's hard. I mean, I live in New York City and I think what I aim to do with, I'm always using airplane mode.

Michelle (42:22)

Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

Sophia Gushee (42:47)

which annoys most people that they can't call me and reach me right away, but so be it. But my, you know, I have to work within like, what can I ask of my family that won't have them completely reject everything I ask. And so for me right now, I'm just trying to get them to use airplane mode when they don't need to be wirelessly connected. If you're able to,

Michelle (42:51)

Mm -hmm. Yeah.

Yes.

Sophia Gushee (43:16)

have your family, your loved ones do even more than that, then that's better. It's just less of a stressor on your body. And so I just want to make the point again that some of these wavelengths like Bluetooth can weaken your membrane. So for example, studies show that cell phone radiation can weaken the blood brain barrier.

which protects our brain from toxic compounds in the blood. So just keep in mind that idea that if you never give your body a break from a growing intensity of radiation in our environment, at home, school, work, even public areas, then your organs like your brain are more likely to...

be more vulnerable to toxic compounds in your blood and elsewhere. So that's why it's just important to be mindful and to be able to create recovery periods for your body. And so the bedroom is a great area to focus on. It's hard to control many things in life and sometimes even in our homes if we live with other people.

Michelle (44:29)

Mm -hmm.

Sophia Gushee (44:39)

But the bedroom is a really good focus because hopefully you're sleeping seven to eight hours. You won't miss being wirelessly disconnected. So just make that energy in your sleep area be as silent as possible so your body can get higher quality sleep and be more resilient to what we can't control.

Michelle (45:02)

Yeah, one of the things that I love is earthing or getting a grounding mat because it does absorb excess like, you know, frequencies in our body just brings it down and it does it's been shown to help with inflammation. I mean, it does so much so much to help the body. I feel like it is one way we can kind of organize our energy again, like our body's energy.

a way that is, you know, it gives us something that we can do to help. And then I've also read about shungite. And I think that there was a study done on shungite because of its high carbon content that does tend to neutralize radiation.

Sophia Gushee (45:49)

Yes, I'm actually wearing a shangite now.

Michelle (45:51)

Oh, look at you and I have this look.

Sophia Gushee (45:57)

Bye.

After talking to scientists about different EMF protection products and other experiences, I'm now at a place where I like to assume they don't work just because I don't want to have a false sense of security. Because some products, some EMF protection products, especially ones that you plug into an electrical outlet, sometimes they cause more

Michelle (46:21)

Right.

Sophia Gushee (46:33)

harm than good or they just create. So for example, you can, for example, I have a router which I can't move outside a daughter's bedroom. So her bedroom gets a lot of radiation and an EMF expert recommended paint that

to paint her walls, special paint that would block out the radiation. It took me years later and another EMF expert to realize that the cell phone towers beaming into her bedroom from outside her apartment that are on rooftops across the street.

bounce off the walls of her painted walls and create a chaotic energy that's even more stressful for my daughter's body. I don't really know what's true, what the big picture is, but it just made me nervous about. That's one example among others that made me feel like I don't really know how to use these things safely. And so I am.

Michelle (47:28)

Mm.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Sophia Gushee (47:51)

Like I think shungite probably does work, but how much shungite do we need? Like plants do detox the air, but for plants to be an effective air purifier, you probably have to live in a greenhouse. You need a lot of plants.

Michelle (47:55)

Bye.

Right, right, right. This is true. I mean, yeah, we could definitely like, we can keep going and dive deep and, and, you know, enter the rabbit hole, go down the rabbit hole with so many of these things. So I definitely, I could see that for sure, but it is important to know.

Sophia Gushee (48:23)

But natural ways of earthing, like I'm a big proponent of, which is just skin contact with earth. I really like on grass and soil, the sea is great, immersing yourself in sea water and the ocean, those are really excellent healing ways to ground.

Michelle (48:32)

Yeah.

No doubt nature is incredible and it really knows how to balance us. I mean, because we are part of nature, it's designed that way. So it is pretty amazing. So, I mean, this is just such a great conversation. I could literally pick your brain for hours. And I love some of the things that we talked about, really good information. And for people who are interested and want to learn more, how can they find you? Where should they go?

on your website or, you know, navigate through this.

Sophia Gushee (49:19)

My website is great. The newsletter is the best way to follow the podcast, the detox academy, 40 day home detox and new blog articles and so much more. So I also have detox workshops online. So Ruan living R U A N is a Nancy living .com has also and I can share this link with you. I have a free.

non -toxic cleaning guide, which is super helpful in explaining the safest way to clean your home.

Michelle (49:58)

Awesome. Yeah, that would be great. So Sophia, thank you so much for coming on today. This is such an informative episode. I really appreciate everything that you shared today. So thank you so much.

Sophia Gushee (50:11)

My pleasure.

EP 290 The Ultimate Pre-Pregnancy Checklist |Alexandria Devito

Alexandria DeVito, MS, CNS, is a functional nutritionist who specializes in fertility and preconception health. She is the author of 9 Months Is Not Enough: The Ultimate Pre-pregnancy Checklist to Create a Baby-Ready Body and Build Generational Health. She is also the founder and CEO of Poplin, the first pre-pregnancy wellness company. Prior to founding Poplin, Alexandria worked in management consulting at McKinsey & Company. She holds an MBA from Harvard Business School. She also has a master’s degree in nutrition; extensive training as a doula, yoga teacher, and personal trainer; and is an Institute for Functional Medicine Certified Practitioner, all of which inform her approach to pre-pregnancy wellness.

https://getpoplin.com

https://www.instagram.com/getpoplin/

https://www.facebook.com/getpoplin

Click here to find out how to get the first chapter of "The Way of Fertility" for free.

For more information about Michelle, visit www.michelleoravitz.com

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook:https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

Summary of this episode:

Alexandria DeVito shares her journey from working in the corporate world to becoming a fertility health advocate. She obtained an MBA from Harvard and a master's degree in nutrition while working in healthcare. She then trained in functional medicine and started seeing clients as a nutritionist. Many of her clients were struggling to conceive, which led her to focus on fertility health. The conversation explores the challenges of fertility struggles and the lack of preconception health guidelines in clinical practice. It highlights the emotional, physical, and financial toll of fertility struggles and the need for better preparation and support. The conversation discusses the importance of preconception care and the impact it can have on the health of both parents and future generations. It highlights the challenges faced by females in accessing comprehensive medical care, which often focuses on contraception rather than preconception care. The conversation emphasizes that there is no such thing as starting preconception care too early or too late. Our bodies were designed to conceive, but our modern environments create a mismatch. Factors such as nutrition, supplements, and stress can affect fertility. 

Transcript:

Michelle (00:00)

Welcome to the podcast, Alexandria.

Alexandria DeVito (00:03)

Thank you so much for having me.

Michelle (00:05)

So we just had a really great pre-talk and we definitely are on the same page on so many things. And what I love about you is that you are here really to empower couples on the fertility journey. I got to look at your book. I was very excited because I feel like I really resonate with the

And I just love the fact that you really approach it from such an empowering perspective. Absolutely love that. But for the listeners, I would love for you to share your background, how you got into the work that you do.

Alexandria DeVito (00:38)

Hmm, you got it.

Yes, I mean, I think there's a lot of alignment philosophically about, you know, just how much more agency we have over our reproductive health and all the different ways that we can prepare to conceive, which I'm sure we will talk all about. So I came into the world of fertility actually, initially through the corporate world. So I was doing corporate consulting and was working in healthcare, largely with pharmaceutical companies and medical device companies. So I kind of learned the healthcare landscape from that lens.

enjoyed working in healthcare. I thought it was just such an incredibly impactful field. And at some point I decided that I wanted to switch from what I felt was operating in a more reactive model of healthcare to a more proactive one. And so that was the impetus for me to go back to school. I went back and got my MBA from Harvard and then I also did a part-time Masters in nutrition on the side.

while I was doing my MBA. And that was my way of adding more tools into my toolkit that were more holistic in nature. And then I finished both of my master's degrees, and I did training and functional medicine, and started seeing clients one-on-one as a nutritionist. And basically what ended up happening was I had a lot of clients that were struggling to conceive, and they had been on fairly long journeys, sometimes a year, two years, three years, and they were being

ping-ponged between different providers and they still weren't getting the answers that they so deeply desired and they were not getting pregnant. And it really struck me, why was this happening? And so you know initially they were saying like do you have any other suggestions? Can you tell me what I should be doing? And this was also happening with friends. Friends of mine were also struggling coming to me not in a professional capacity but in a personal capacity asking for my advice and guidance.

And initially I was really perplexed, right? This seems like an important problem. This seems like a solvable problem. What the heck is going on here? And so inspired by my functional medicine training, I started running these really broad panels of tests that.

essentially were screening mechanisms. I looked at the clinical literature and saw all the reasons that could potentially interfere with someone's ability to get pregnant. And once I started running these broad screening tests, a whole bunch of things started flagging that my clients, other providers, had never even tested in the first place.

And that was what really inspired me to say, wait a minute, like, why are we waiting until someone is several years into a fertility struggle? It is emotionally, physically, financially draining in most cases. Why are we waiting to find out these things that we could have found out before they even started their journey? And so that really inspired my exploration of preconception health, which is essentially the preparation period before and between pregnancy is, which we can talk more about.

And I realized that there have been preconception guidelines over 40 years at this point, but they're not being implemented in clinical practice. And then certainly, if we think about ancient practices, which this is your specialty, these have been around for thousands and thousands of years. But we're not implementing them.

And so I just felt that there was an opportunity to rewrite the dialogue and to really give people so many more tools to prepare to get pregnant like they prepare for any other major milestone, a wedding, a career, right? Even buying a house today has more infrastructure and support. And so that's really been my journey and the impetus and really spreading the word around this concept of preconception health and all the things that you can do on both a macro level and a micro level.

to optimize it and build generational health.

Michelle (04:25)

I mean, I love this topic and I just, you know, it pains me that it's not mainstream, that this is just not information that people get. And I feel like they do get it after digging and finding. it would be so nice if people just knew this information because it's so important. And so let's go to that topic of really preparing the body.

Alexandria DeVito (04:33)

Mm-hmm.

Michelle (04:52)

because I think that is just something that most people don't even consider. Nobody really is told that. It's not something that anybody really has access to. I mean, the only access that you really have is like high school health education, where they tell you not to conceive and that anybody blinks and they get pregnant. And so just about your body and how it really works. And then,

Alexandria DeVito (05:07)

Hahaha

See you soon.

Michelle (05:20)

it's that like the red pill that we swallow and realize like what's really happening and what's the reality and it's so different than what we've been told. So let's talk about preconception care like why is it important and how long do people really need to consider preparing themselves before conception?

Alexandria DeVito (05:42)

You had so many important points in what you just said that I, you know, I think it's actually really helpful. I want to elaborate on them and, you know, and amplify what you said. First, right, I think it's true. We don't get updated sexual education information in most cases, right? The last time most people had any sort of sexual education, it may have been in middle school or in high school, where presumably the goal is to prevent teen pregnancies. So the message that we are giving people...

in that context is very different from the message that we might want to give to someone who's in their 20s, 30s, 40s, who's actively trying to conceive, right? But there aren't great mechanisms to update that information, right? And so I think that's one of the first challenges. I think the second challenge is that we are very bifurcated in our medical care for females, where we're either focused on contraception, so preventing pregnancy, or pregnancy.

right, managing a pregnancy that is already in process. But this intervening period, this preconception period, when once we are stopping contraception and pursuing pregnancy, is almost been forgotten about. And I think it deserves its own conversation. And that's why I'm so happy to be here today talking about it, is I didn't even know preconception was a thing before I started researching it. And proper preconception care has

big benefits. Number one is it makes it easier to get pregnant, and then number two, it increases the likelihood of having a healthy pregnancy and a baby. And it's certainly been known, been shown to reduce the complications of any sort of birth complications, pregnancy complications, and then also fertility challenges. And so this is relevant, whether it's your first pregnancy or your fifth pregnancy.

it's relevant whether you're 23 or 43, right? And sometimes it can be even more relevant for subsequent pregnancies because a female's body can be so depleted of nutrients in a previous pregnancy or hormones may be dysregulated. I'm sure this is something that you see a lot of the time as well, right? And so what you do in the preconception window is incredibly important because it's been shown to affect the lifelong trajectory of the health for your child through the epigenetic markers in egg.

and sperm. So it's just such a profoundly impactful time period where you're not only affecting your health and your reproductive partner's health, but that of your future child and even your child's children and beyond. It's wild.

Michelle (08:18)

Right. I know, isn't that crazy? The thought of that. Yeah. It's pretty wild. So how long would you say, generally speaking, how long do you think people should really consider pre-conception care, like before even conceiving?

Alexandria DeVito (08:34)

Yes. So what I generally say is, look, there's no such thing as too early. So if you're an overachiever and you want to start this early and you're thinking about pregnancy even in a couple of years, no such thing as too early. There's also no such thing as too late. Even if you've already struggled to conceive and or are about to pursue an assisted reproductive cycle, you can still be making these changes. Your body is incredibly, incredibly resilient. That being said, generally speaking,

what I recommend is usually about a year, right? So kind of what you're doing in the three, six, 12 months prior to conceiving is the timeframe that your body is gonna be most susceptible, either positively or negatively, to what's going on in and around your life cycle. And that is true on the female reproductive side, where the last stage of egg maturation is around three to four months and kind of their susceptibility to what you're eating.

environmental toxins and you're stress-loaded in that period of time, and sometimes we need multiple of those cycles. And the same thing for male sperm development. That's around three months, so again we may need multiple cycles depending on our starting point. But it actually takes about a year, the current literature is saying, for an egg to kind of move from its you know essentially sleeping beauty like state all the way through to ovulation. So that's just the time periods when we're thinking biologically what we want to keep in mind.

Michelle (09:58)

And so what are the things that you would suggest or what are some of the things that you would say people should look at? I mean, I know there's so and I know nutrition's a huge part in certain supplements, but I'd love to get your, your thoughts on that.

Alexandria DeVito (10:12)

Absolutely. Yeah, so here's what I would generally say. Our bodies were designed to conceive, but our modern environments were not. Right? And so there's a mismatch now between our genes and our environment.

and our environment today is communicating to our bodies that we are in a reso unsafe environment on a pretty regular basis. And when we are in a reso unsafe environment, our body down-regulates reproductive function because it says, wait a minute, probably not the best environment into which to bring a child, so let's put it on pause right now. And so when I think about what are the factors that are driving

as auspicious to conceiving. There's the macro level and then you know kind of what's going on for most of us, and then there's the micro level. So I'll split it into those two. On the macro level, you certainly alluded to several of these, right? We're eating a lot of food and we're getting not very much nutrition, right? So we're eating more food-like substances, less food, less nutrient density of food, less balanced.

Michelle (11:13)

Mm-hmm.

Alexandria DeVito (11:20)

diets, more blood sugar imbalanced diets, right? So these sorts of things are not conducive to fertility, and that's become the norm, not lately. A second big one is environmental chemicals that are coming at us through our food, our water, our air, our personal care products, our home care products, and I think particularly for females who are using, tend to use more personal care products than our male counterparts. You know, if

One of your products has these endocrine disrupting chemicals in them, probably not that big of a deal, but when it's kind of like our shampoos and our conditioners and our makeup and you know our lipstick and our soaps and right, you know, it starts to add up and our bodies were just not designed to deal with this level of toxic load. Our bodies can naturally detoxify, but when it's all day every day, it becomes much, much harder for our body to excrete these compounds that we're not meant to be dealing with. So environmental toxins are another one.

Stress levels, I think are another important one. We are more stressed and stretched than ever before. The data suggests this. We are sleeping less soundly and less cumulatively. And what happens there is our sex hormones and our stress hormones are in the same biochemical pathway. And our bodies will always prioritize survival over procreation. So kind of what, to what I was saying earlier, if your body thinks, oh, this is, we're in war basically, or we're in an unsafe environment,

it's going to down-regulate reproductive function and switch from making your sex hormones to making your stress hormones because it thinks it's adaptive, it thinks it's protecting you. And what happens then is you don't have the raw materials, A, to get a regular menstrual cycle and ovulate, but then B, to carry a baby, right? So that's a big one that I see. And then the last kind of big one that I'll touch on is just movement. We've...

significantly increase the sedentary-ness of our jobs even, and we you know we don't have to walk more than five feet if we don't want to right there's planes, trains, automobiles, right even scooters can kind of get us from point to point, and so when we think about movement the important thing about movement is that when we are moving we are getting you know this is very much in your realm right we don't have stagnation right so

whenever we have good blood flow, that means we're moving oxygen, we're moving nutrients throughout our body. When we're sitting for long periods of time, we're essentially compressing our reproductive organs and creating stagnation, which is not great for kind of getting the things to go where they need to go. So those are the big ones on the macro level that I see, and I'll just briefly touch on the micro, which is that part of what was the impetus for me building the pre-pregnancy testing company that I now run, Poplin, is that

know, it was inspired by what I saw working as a nutritionist, that there's all these things that we can test in advance to understand what's going on for you uniquely. Right now in fertility we treat in many cases all 25 year olds as equal, all 35 year olds as equal, and that's cellularly just not true. So if we can understand what's going on in your unique body, then we can have a much better intervention plan rather than kind of doing all the things you can do, the specific things that are relevant to you and your physiology.

Michelle (14:24)

Right. Yeah.

Oh my God. Yeah, for sure. And a lot of people are not really getting the tests, even if they are available mainstream. I'm always like surprised when people get there just the TSH and very high and nobody looks to see is it antibodies that's causing that. Like, there's no antibody testing. And I've even had patients go to their doctors and ask for it. And they're like, I don't know why you need it.

Alexandria DeVito (14:57)

Mm-hmm.

Michelle (15:05)

And I'm like, really? Like just, it boggles my mind. So it's again, a shame that people have to really search it and seek it, but if you are able to, I definitely highly suggest that. I think it's a game changer to be able to really see what's going on and to do the functional testing. Cause functional testing is a lot more detailed than what we'll see in just like a doctor's office or So I think it's huge.

Alexandria DeVito (15:32)

I agree and I'm obviously hugely biased here so you know everyone has to take you know my opinion with a grain of salt but I've just seen you know because we're testing such a wide array of markers like I've never seen a test come back without something that you know someone could be working on and I've never had someone say you know I wish I didn't do that testing right

Michelle (15:50)

Yeah.

Alexandria DeVito (15:50)

it's really empowering. I think sometimes we can get scared and say, well, what if we find something out? And, you know, I don't want to know. But the things about the testing that we do, at least, is that everything on the test, except for blood type, is modifiable, which means you can do something about it. It's not some test result where you then are just, you know, sitting there, twiddling your thumbs, wondering, you know, what to do. You can modify it through diet, lifestyle, supplementation.

Michelle (16:05)

Right.

Alexandria DeVito (16:19)

Alternative therapies like the work that you do, right? Enhancing blood flow, managing stress levels, all of these things can really improve these biomarkers and you can see it in black and white, right? You can take the test, you can make lifestyle interventions and then you can take it again and you can watch your progress.

Michelle (16:19)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Not only that.

I feel like people feel a certain way or they feel sluggish and they think it's them or something's wrong with them. And when people get that confirmation, and this is kind of like, I mean, it's obviously related because everything's related to fertility. Because you were saying what you said was so true. And I say the same thing. It's your body's going to want to survive. And if it doesn't have the means, regardless of the fact that it's going to also influence reproductive health, but it also influences your quality of life.

Alexandria DeVito (16:44)

Hmm

Michelle (17:06)

people actually see that and they realize, oh my God, this is what explains it. Because I think there's nothing more frustrating than getting that unexplained diagnosis. And when you actually see beneath the surface what's really happening and it gives you an explanation, I feel like that by itself is so empowering.

Alexandria DeVito (17:14)

Very funny.

Michelle (17:26)

And I agree a lot of times with functional medicine, yes, we can change diet, we can address what's going on. We can see the inflammation. And then let's talk about gut health, because I know that that's like a big thing. A lot of people hear about gut health. And at first, I think when people start the fertility journey, they think it's just, let's focus just on fertility. But then you don't realize, like, there are so many different factors that come into play.

Alexandria DeVito (17:36)

Yeah.

Michelle (17:51)

And there are different systems and all the systems come together to create the whole of you. And gut health is incredibly important, even in Chinese medicine, you know, the clean stomach or the center, really the center that makes the blood, supports your body's processes and energy. So I wanted to get your perspective on gut health and also to explain it to people who are first hearing about it. Like why does gut health

matter so much when it comes to fertility health.

Alexandria DeVito (18:22)

And I want to hear more from your perspective too, because I think this is where it's so beautiful to hear that the different modalities and how they're looking at things differently. And in a lot of ways, there's just this underlying similarity between the philosophies too. So I think, you know, what you said is spot on, right? Fertility is an extension of our overall health.

A lot of times we treat fertility as this below the waist conversation, or we treat it as solely a function of your hormones. And it is those things. It does involve your reproductive organs, and it does involve your hormones. But if we're just looking at those things, we're just kind of like looking through, you know, at-

20-30% of the equation, we're missing all of the other stuff going on in your body. And that's why when we look at testing, we're looking at your blood status, your hormone status, your metabolic status, your nutrient status, your immune status, all of these things affect your fertility. And you're talking about gut health, incredibly important.

thing. When we think about gut health, just to give a few examples with my nutritionist hat on, just because you're eating, let's say, a quote unquote healthy diet does not mean you are digesting and assimilating those nutrients. So if we're eating in a stressed state, if we're eating while we're standing up, if we are judging the food that we are eating, all of these things actually decrease the amount of nutrition that we can extract from that meal. So that's just

Michelle (19:30)

Right.

Alexandria DeVito (19:46)

first really important principle.

The second one is if you have happened to have been on hormonal birth control for any period of time, the literature is fairly clear that hormonal birth control can disrupt our microbiome. And so if we're not taking compensatory action to address that, then you're likely to be dealing with a disrupted microbiome. And then again, right, that may feed certain cravings. It may mean you're not, again, extracting nutrients as effectively from the foods that

eating. It may mean that you're dealing with symptomology like bloating and gas and discomfort after meals that are certainly...

not very pleasant right? And so you have kind of all of these different components when we think about gut health and if you just think about it from like a nutrient perspective, our gut is the way that our body helps us digest and assimilate. So if we're eating all these foods and we're not actually getting the benefit of the foods that we're eating, we're more likely to be in a nutrient deficient state. And nutrient deficiencies can delay time to pregnancy and they can also affect

And so what we're kind of consuming in the three to four months prior to conceiving is what you actually have to offer to that baby in that first trimester. So ensuring that your nutrient stores are replete before that period of time is incredibly important.

Michelle (21:12)

Oh yeah, absolutely. Chinese medicine, It actually is what extracts into blood and blood is really important for women, uterine lining, but it also feeds the ovaries. So yeah, and it's amazing how now we're starting to find out a lot of things with research. And I love that. And it's also interesting because people do go on the birth

not only impacts the gut microbiome, but also impacts your nutrients in your body, depletes certain nutrients. So for people who have been on the birth control pill for many years, I think that that's one of the things in mainstream they'll say, oh, you could be on the birth control pill for many years. And then the second you stop, you could just go ahead and get pregnant. So what

has been your experience for people who have been on birth control pill and some people for over 10 years. And what are some of the things that you would look at and want to address to regulate and prepare people for conception? Yeah.

Alexandria DeVito (22:16)

Such a great question. So I mean, I think there's the talking about birth control can be such a.

an important and also sensitive topic because I think it's, you know, I have such reverence for the freedoms that it has afforded myself for many years and also many, many women to pursue their lives as they deem fit, pursue their careers. And at the same time, I think we now have a generation of women who have been on hormonal birth control, as you said, from very early reproductive years, and we now have more information about the side effects.

you know, I'm a big believer in this concept of informed consent, which means you get to decide what is best for you, and the only way you can decide what is best for you is if you're given all of the information to evaluate the pros and cons of this. And for, you know, many women, even understanding some of the things that we're about to talk about, they still may make the same decision, but that is not the point of informed consent. The point of informed consent is that you get to know all of this information and then decide what is best for you. And so what I think

about hormonal birth control. Certainly what was not communicated to me is that, as you said, there are very well established nutrient depletions. And we've known this, you know, for almost 50 years now, by the way. So like the nutrient depletion side of this has been very clear. So nutrient depletions in many B vitamins, vitamin C, vitamin E, and then also in certain of the minerals, so like magnesium, selenium, and zinc.

And so what I would say there is you have a couple options, but number one is supplementing alongside hormonal birth control if you're still on hormonal birth control and are thinking about getting pregnant, not imminently, but in the future. And also if you go off of birth control, making sure that you're repleting those nutrients, because those are nutrients that are incredibly important for fertility and pregnancy.

Michelle (23:58)

Right.

Alexandria DeVito (24:11)

So I would say that as one piece, right? Certainly around the microbiome, we talked about that. And so giving your gut additional support might be helpful, right? Eating.

probiotic foods, eating prebiotic foods, sometimes adding additional supplementation may be necessary. And you can understand if you're experiencing any sort of digestive upset, that may suggest that there's something going on with your gut. So a lot of yeast infections can sometimes indicate, okay, there's an imbalance in what's going on in your gut.

Michelle (24:41)

Mm-hmm.

Alexandria DeVito (24:45)

If you're having immune challenges, a lot of times that can actually be linked to what's going on in your gut. Issues with digestion or motility, a lot of people don't even realize that the daily bowel movements are normal, and so if you're not having daily bowel movements, that actually means you're constipated, and so many people are walking around constipated and not even realizing it. So all of these things can be manifestations of, you know, A, our lifestyle, and then also can be a function of long-term

hormonal birth control use. So just understanding that. And what I generally say is that coming off of hormonal birth control, if you've been on it for many years, is an active rather than a passive process. So if you are just aware of some of these side effects of being on hormonal birth control, you can be a much more empowered user to take compensatory actions to address them.

Michelle (25:36)

That's such a good point because I think in many cases people don't really feel like they have an option, but they need to still learn about what they can do in order to empower themselves. It's definitely such a good point to bring up. I was going to ask you just kind of a side note, what are your thoughts? Because I'm reading a lot about it as of late, systemic enzymes, enzymes are really, really important, but I'm reading a lot about how

Alexandria DeVito (26:04)

Hmm.

Michelle (26:06)

amazing it is for the body, for inflammation.

Alexandria DeVito (26:11)

bit about them too. I haven't done the requisite deep dive that I would need to give a really thorough opinion here. It does seem to be showing some promise and you know I think there are some potentially interesting applications out there, but you'll have to stay tuned on that one because I need to research them a little bit more before I get into thinking about kind of what are the best suggestions for folks and kind of what are the specific instances that I think they can be.

Michelle (26:27)

Yeah.

Alexandria DeVito (26:37)

used in? What do you think is the most intriguing application so far?

Michelle (26:41)

It's incredible. So for example, wobe enzyme, which as of late, it's been out of stock for so many, but there are a lot of different places that do offer systemic enzymes. And basically what they do is they really break apart fibrin and you know, even plaque in our circulation system and our veins and arteries. And

it could really help lower inflammation. There's been a lot of research on specifically whoope enzyme and they've even researched it for recurrent miscarriages which I find really interesting. it can also help in certain cases of autoimmune conditions has been shown to help with Hashimoto's. There's so many things that I'm reading about it and I'm really fascinated. So I'm starting to dig in a little bit more.

and finding it to be a really amazing thing. And I think what happens is as we get older, we decrease the amount of enzymes our bodies have and enzymes are so brilliant, your body's so brilliant. It knows what to basically clean out and it will never affect your tissues. So it's really fascinating stuff.

Alexandria DeVito (27:50)

It is. The autoimmune conditions are the ones that I've seen some applications for. And it is really interesting to think about because certainly we're seeing autoimmune conditions on the rise and pretty precipitously. And autoimmune conditions are disproportionately present in the female population. So it's something that's important to be aware of. I think it's 80% of autoimmune diagnoses are in females. And on average, it takes about

immune diagnosis. So it's just, it's wild. It's wild to think about that. And a lot of times, autoimmune conditions can have non-specific symptoms, which is why sometimes it can be hard to address. We do autoimmune screening, testing it at Poplin, and one of the reasons that we do it is because there's been such a precipitous rise in autoimmune conditions, and we're seeing a lot of people flagging for indications of autoimmune conditions. And it's not a diagnosis. You have

Michelle (28:21)

Isn't that crazy? Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Alexandria DeVito (28:50)

diagnostic testing to get an autoimmune diagnosis, but it's a first step to say, okay, might there be some autoimmune processes going on? And a lot of times that will initiate people into conversations around family history that they, you know, weren't aware of but that they then become aware of around autoimmune conditions. And, you know, there are certainly plenty of things once you know that you're dealing with it that you can start to do to manage it in collaboration with your doctor.

Michelle (28:51)

Mm-hmm.

Alexandria DeVito (29:16)

So I think that's an area that's certainly right for a lot more research. And I'm excited to see that there are potential other alternative therapies as well.

Michelle (29:23)

Yeah, it's pretty fascinating and really looping back to the gut health, there's such a connection with gut health and autoimmune conditions. And right now we know that so many of the ingredients that we find in processed foods impact our gut health. I mean, some of the medications we take. So it's kind of like you were saying earlier, even just environmental.

Alexandria DeVito (29:28)

Yes.

Michelle (29:45)

It impacts our gut. it's not something that we can avoid, which makes sense to why so many people are experiencing that. You also have to be proactive in, like you said, like the environment. We're not living in a very fertile friendly environment. So you have to be proactive in looking into it and researching it and then figuring out what's going on with your specific body and then what you can do about it.

Alexandria DeVito (30:10)

Absolutely, I think it's true. You know, I wish it weren't the case. I wish we had, you know, better regulations in this in this area. And I wish that we could play in a safer sandbox, I guess, is the is the way I would say it, you know, but you know, unfortunately, until regulations catch up, or, you know, until we are in a place where these, these chemicals aren't around us in such a profound way, we have to take a lot more personal responsibility. And so, you know,

Michelle (30:22)

Yeah.

Alexandria DeVito (30:38)

it can sometimes feel overwhelming because there's a lot to learn around, you know, trying to understand, okay, well, what are the things that I want to be keeping in and around me? What are the things that I don't want to be keeping in and around me? And I just, you know, generally encourage people to be gentle with themselves as they maybe go kind of room by room, starting to look at the different things that are coming in, identifying potentially major sources or things that you're using frequently to start to minimize all these assaults that we have on our system, right? Because our body

as I was saying earlier, and it was designed to regenerate and heal. And so it's really our job to figure out kind of what are the fertility blockers in our environment, right? And to remove those, because once you remove those, the body heals itself, right? It's miraculous. And so it's, you know, systematically finding, okay, where are these things in and around my environment that are not so consistent with my goals right now?

Michelle (31:21)

Mm-hmm. It does.

It's so funny. I feel like we're like mentally related because a lot of things that you're saying are things that I felt for forever. I mean, I really like relate and I say it over and over again, because it is really true. It's just that hope that knowing that your body's incredible. It's so intelligent. It's beyond intelligent. And it's just a matter of really finding things and anything's possible. Truly, if you put your mind to it.

And for just for people to hear about, I would love, and I would love to know also, what does poplin offer? Like what are some of the things that people can get tested?

Alexandria DeVito (32:13)

Mmm.

So Poplin's designed a pre-pregnancy test for females and for males, and the idea is that we look at a vast array of biomarkers that are like 70 plus. So the idea is essentially that we're looking across five different categories of health. So I mentioned them earlier, blood status, your hormone status, your immune status, metabolic status, and nutrient status. And within each of those categories, I'll just talk briefly about some of the most common things that we see, but the idea is to identify things that could be red flags or yellow flags,

with your ability to get pregnant or sustain a healthy pregnancy and have a healthy baby. So in blood status, this is where we're looking at the health of your blood cells, red blood cells, white blood cells. And so a lot of times there, we'll also look at iron storage, so your ferritin levels. And in your world, I'm guessing you see this manifested in a slightly different way, but we see a ton of iron deficiency. And a lot of times people are just coming in and

Michelle (33:09)

Mm-hmm.

Alexandria DeVito (33:14)

requisite iron is going to be really hard to, you know, to get pregnant and to sustain a pregnancy. It's a really important nutrient. So that's one that we see really commonly when we think about hormone status. That's the category that most people think about when they think about fertility. We're looking at a lot of different hormones there. As you, as you mentioned earlier, we look at TSH. We also look at seven other.

thyroid function markers, right? So we are looking at thyroid antibodies, but then we're also wanting to look at what else is going on with your conversion of thyroid hormone, and sometimes your TSH is not as sensitive of a marker as some of the others, and so it will change later in the disease process, and so using markers that are a bit more sensitive to catch things earlier is important.

Michelle (33:37)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Alexandria DeVito (33:59)

When I think about metabolic function, we look at blood sugar in that category. We also look at cholesterol. So a lot of times blood sugar function can interfere with regular ovulation. So we wanna understand what might be going on there that could interrupt.

ovulation or even egg quality. I know this is something that you've covered before, right? Our blood sugar is intimately related to certainly our hormone function, but also egg quality and sperm quality. And then nutrients we've talked a lot about, but I'm still consistently seeing low vitamin D, low omega-3s. So these are things that are fairly easily addressable if you know that they're present. And so those are ones that we are seeing commonly. And our, you know,

Michelle (34:33)

Mm-hmm.

Alexandria DeVito (34:44)

choose to address that, in some cases through diet and in some cases through additional supplementation.

Michelle (34:51)

And are people able to just go on and do it for themselves or do they need a provider to access the tests?

Alexandria DeVito (34:58)

people can access it directly themselves. That's exactly what we're designed for. I think what I realized when I was working as a nutritionist and I was trying to get some of these tests like have other providers run the testing was that a lot of providers wouldn't run the testing. They wouldn't run as comprehensive of a panel as I thought was necessary. And it's really not their fault. It's because in most cases, insurance is driving care. Care is not driving what is reimbursed through insurance. And so providers are stuck even if they wanted to run it,

they don't have the codes to be able to do it. So it is, you know, offered out of pocket. You can use HSA or FSA dollars for it. But the idea is that you know exactly what you're getting, you know exactly what you're paying, and then you can have this information. And most of the time, even though most doctors will not necessarily run the tests up front, once you get the results, you can bring those tests to your doctor and they...

will engage with you and can help you address what might be going on, whether or not that's chronic disease management, medication, or further conversations about the patterns that are being seen. And with the purchase of your test, you also get a call with one of our pre-pregnancy educators, so you can talk about next steps as well to make sure that you're equipped for what would be most helpful.

Michelle (36:14)

Okay, so that you'll have somebody to explain to you really what the test means.

Alexandria DeVito (36:19)

Yes, and it's also explained in our app as well. So for each item, it says kind of what is this and what is the implication on fertility as well. So the idea is to just give you some context for what you're looking at, and then you could also speak with someone to ask additional questions about if there's anything that's still confusing.

Michelle (36:41)

Awesome. I mean, I think that's great. I think it's great for people to be able to do it for themselves if they don't, if they're not working with somebody and, have that accessible for so many people because going through this could be so daunting and then just not really understanding. And then just getting, you know, doors closed, like, no, you can't continue looking into this, or it's just unexplained. So like, what else is going on?

Alexandria DeVito (37:06)

That's so well said. I mean, I think I'm consistently surprised at how dismissive sometimes people can be about getting information about your own body. And I really do believe, like, don't let any, if you desire information about your body, don't let anyone tell you that you don't have a right to that. I think that is, you know, just not true.

And so everyone has a different relationship with data. For some people, they feel it is empowering. Most people, I find, feel it is empowering to understand what is going on for yourself. And if that's you, if you feel like you want to understand, okay, what is my baseline? What is my pre-pregnancy wellness? What am I working with? Then I'd invite you to look into that because I think it's so much more impactful to have that information and then have paths to follow than be dealing with this kind of black box, right?

Michelle (37:46)

Mm-hmm.

Alexandria DeVito (37:59)

to be a black box, though we often treat it as such. There's so many indicators that our body is giving us through our menstrual cycles, through our symptoms, and then through, you know, physiologic testing like blood testing and urine testing. There's so much information that our body is giving us about what's going on that we can use to understand earlier indicators of fertility than just getting pregnant.

Michelle (38:21)

Absolutely. So for people who want to find out more about you, and do you work with people one on one still what do you offer?

Alexandria DeVito (38:32)

Yeah, absolutely. So if people are interested in the book, that's...

at 9mon the number nine, and that has all the information about kind of how to prepare to get pregnant and many of the factors that I talked about. I also talk about testing in the book as well. If people are excited about getting tested and are interested in getting tested, that's through Poplin, and the website for that is getpoplin.com, G-E-T-P-O-P-L-I-N. I'm not working with clients one-on-one anymore. It's only through Poplin these days, so if that's something that you're interested in,

encourage you to come join us. We have an incredible set of pre-pregnancy educators as well who are deeply passionate about the space just like you and I are, Michelle. And so if you want to get a little bit more insight into what's going on with your body or your reproductive partner's body, that's what we're here for.

Michelle (39:24)

Awesome. Well, Alexandria, I feel like we're on such similar pages on our approach to fertility And I love the fact that you're all about empowerment and education and getting people to really understand.

that their body is incredible and so intelligent and so powerful and that you can actually do something about it. So I had such a great conversation with you today and thank you so much for coming on.

Alexandria DeVito (39:52)

Thank you so much for having me. It's such a pleasure. And please keep doing what you're doing. It's absolutely incredible spreading the word and serving in this space. It's beautiful.

EP 289 Can Psychedelics Play a Role in Mind Body Healing? | Paul Austin

Paul F. Austin is one of the most prominent voices in the world of psychedelics.

As the founder of Third Wave, he has educated millions on the importance of safe and effective psychedelic experiences. A pioneer at the intersection of psychedelics, personal transformation, and professional success, his work has been featured in Forbes, Rolling Stone, and the BBC's Worklife.

Paul helps leaders, creatives, and pioneers leverage psychedelics for exponential personal growth and professional development. He views psychedelics as a skill refined through mentorship, courageous exploration, and intentional use.

According to Paul, learning how to master this skill will be crucial in the story of humanity’s present-future evolution.

Note: Psychedelics are not legal in most U.S. states so it’s important to take this episode as educational and not medical or suggestive advice. This is a potent controlled substance and this episode is not intended to recommend or suggest that anyone take it. 

Website & Social media links (Facebook, instagram, twitter)

Social Media Paul F. Austin:

- IG: https://www.instagram.com/paulaustin3w/

- X: https://twitter.com/PaulAustin3w?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

- LI: https://www.linkedin.com/in/paul-f-austin/

Social Media Third Wave

- YT: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCATHWJYqouqzF3-5GMIaOuQ

- FB: https://www.facebook.com/thirdwaveishere

- X: https://twitter.com/thirdwaveishere

- IG: http://www.instagram.com/thirdwaveishere

- LI: http://www.linkedin.com/company/third-wave-psychedelics/

In this conversation, Paul Austin discusses his personal journey with psychedelics and how they have impacted his life. He explains the potential therapeutic benefits of microdosing psychedelics, such as psilocybin and ketamine, and how they can help with mental health issues and even fertility. Paul emphasizes the importance of finding a qualified practitioner and following a safe and responsible approach when using psychedelics. He also shares resources, such as his podcast and coaching program, for those who want to learn more.

Takeaways

• Psychedelics, when used responsibly, may have therapeutic benefits for the mind.

• Psychedelics can promote neuroplasticity and reduce inflammation in the brain, leading to positive changes in mental health.

• Finding a qualified practitioner and following a safe approach is crucial when using psychedelics.

• Resources like podcasts, guides, and coaching programs are available for those interested in learning more about psychedelics.

Click here to find out how to get the first chapter of "The Way of Fertility" for free.

For more information about Michelle, visit www.michelleoravitz.com

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

For more information about Michelle, visitwww.michelleoravitz.com

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook:https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

Transcript:

Michelle (00:00)

Welcome to the podcast fall.

Paul Austin (00:01)

Thank you for having me on, Michelle.

Michelle (00:03)

I'd love for you to share your background, how you got into this work. And then we'll obviously dive in a little later.

Paul Austin (00:10)

Well, the topic we're covering today is or has been a fairly taboo one. And the place that I grew up in was raised in that was, I would say particularly so. My family was pretty religious growing up. So we were in church every Sunday. This is, I grew up in Michigan in the Midwest and.

at the age of 16, I started to smoke a little cannabis and soon after that tried alcohol for the first time. And then a few years after that started to work with LSD and mushrooms. And early on in that journey, like pretty much right after I started smoking weed, my parents found out that I had been, you know, trying cannabis and they sat me down and

Uh, one Sunday after church and my dad looked at me and was like, you know, I haven't been this disappointed since my brother passed away in a car accident 35 years ago, something like that. So it clearly pained my parents. I mean, it clearly impacted them way more than it impacted me. There's this very negative. Mine was very positive. So it just became clear at that point in time that we were just, we were of different perspectives, which I accepted and was fine with. I was much more the rebel and you know, uh, the

person who was skeptical of groupthink and was always asking questions and sort of being a little bit of a menace. I was definitely a little bit of a menace growing up as a young kid. But that then matured into, oh, I would like to choose a path that's more unconventional that, you know, most people don't necessarily follow. So when I was 21, I moved to Turkey and I had been influenced by my early LSD and psychedelic use. I had had these experiences with...

either by myself or with a small group of friends in the woods, in nature, and always just felt very creative from that place and wanting to sort of paint my own picture or dream my own dream or create lifestyle design in a way that I felt was very intentional. And so I thought the first the first path coming out of university would be fun to travel. So I taught English in Turkey, and then I started a business in Thailand like an online

business, like a sort of early digital nomad remote work lifestyle. And I was traveling all over. I'd go to Vietnam. I'd go to, you know, I did road trips all across Europe. I went to the Amazon for a conference in Ayahuasca at one point. So very nomadic traveling all over. And soon after that phase started, I moved to Budapest and I worked with LSD again and had a very profound experience. And this was 2015. And at that point in time, I was

noticing more people were talking about psychedelics. There are more conversations happening around them, more research being published. So I started Third Wave as an educational platform resource for like cultural or legalization of psychedelics. And the story kind of like this first chapter sort of concludes when in 2018, Michael Pollan's book came out, How to Change Your Mind. I gave it to my dad to read and he read it.

And soon after he started to microdose and then soon after that, I guided him through a high dose psilocybin journey. So, you know, this is almost 13, 14 years after that initial conversation we had, their minds had been changed quite a bit. And now my parents are, you know, fully supportive and behind what I do professionally and all those sorts of things. So what I've sort of learned over the last 10 years being professionally involved in this work is.

you know, if we have our own experiences with them, we speak from that place, you know, we, it's, it's good not to sort of willfully push it onto others, but providing education, providing context, providing answers to questions if they're interested. That's really what I strive to do and support people in, in and on their path with psychedelics and microdoses.

Michelle (04:13)

Yeah, I mean, I know this sounds almost like a random topic to be putting into fertility work. I like to kind of talk about everything. I think everything that could be medicinal for yourself on a psycho spiritual, level to me is welcome. And I'm interested because I see a lot of really emerging

data, information about how this can help people, like deeply in a different way than some of the pharmaceuticals, which if anything, kind of like push down what we're really feeling and like going into the root of what's happening in your body or your mind can impact your body and can also impact your mind and it can also impact how you perceive the world. And I had one of my patients, actually a couple of patients, um,

do this, microdose. And they've come to me and told me, one of them, I remember her having major anxiety and I was helping her prepare for IVF. She had many failed rounds and was going through this for many years and young woman, you know, too. So she was young and she's like, I don't understand why we can't start a family. And I felt her anxiety, like literally can feel her anxiety every time she used to come in. And I would talk to her about meditation and different things. And then,

One day she came in and I felt like she was like a different person. And she told me that she started microdosing and that it really helped her tremendously come out of anxiety. And shortly thereafter, she ended up getting pregnant. She had a positive outcome. So I was like, okay, this is interesting. And I've talked to another patient of mine who had miscarried. And after many years of trying,

and finally got pregnant and miscarried and went through a lot of anxiety around it. And she told me, and for a while actually, I didn't hear from her. She needed a break. And it's so very often this happens with this field. You know, people go inwards and try to figure out or take breaks really from trying anything because it could be so emotionally exhausting. And she said the one thing that really helped her is she microdosed as well. And then I started watching, I love Gaia.

TV, I watch a lot of topics on there. And they were talking about microdosing and really the power of psychedelics and how it can impact the mind. And I'm just intrigued. And then your people reached out to me. I'm like, you know what, this is a really interesting topic and I really want to look into this. And you're right. It is kind of a taboo because it's considered a controlled substance, but it is a lot of people are starting to look into it for therapeutics because they're seeing that it

has an impact on almost rewiring the mind. And I find that really intriguing. So I really want to talk about like, how does this work? How does it work on the mind? Like, what's it? What's the impact like for microdosing, for example, psilocybin? Like, how does that work?

Paul Austin (07:16)

Thank you.

So when we think about the mechanism of action of low doses of psychedelics, there's the protocols that we can follow, like do it twice a week or do it three times a week. The prescription sort of being minimum of one month up to three months and then take a two to three week break and cycle off of it. So that's very much the what of.

Microdosing. The how is where you get a little bit more into why this might be impacting fertility, why this may be impacting our body's sort of sense of homeostasis or, you know, a sense of vitality or full health. And that really looks at its impact on certain neurotransmitters like serotonin and dopamine. It has a positive impact on both.

So it helps with focus, attention, motivation. It also helps people to feel better, to feel good. And that mechanism of action also plays out in its impact on neuroplasticity and the production of BDN -Apran -Gerab neurotrophic factor, which is a precursor to neuroplasticity. So what we know about microdosing is that when it's done in a consistent rhythm,

Ideally combined with some form of practice like meditation or yoga or just more mindfulness around what we eat. So some sort of intention is weaving through it. It can drive towards a number of beneficial outcomes depending on the context. So some people will say, oh, this really helped me to get off my SSRIs. This helped me to get off certain benzodiazepines. This helped me to get off.

ADHD medication, some people will be like, Oh, this really helped me to find my rhythm again in work and I was able to access flow or some people are like, Oh, this really helped me manage or heal my relationship or help me to heal fertility issues. So it depends on the context depends on the intention behind the overall experience. But the driving factor is is that impact on neuroplasticity.

Michelle (09:30)

Mm -hmm.

Paul Austin (09:31)

and what it does to the prefrontal cortex in terms of helping us to plan and think and change and shift. But it also has a really an impact on the amygdala, which is our field response center. So oftentimes people notice they become more courageous. They're more willing to sort of step outside their normal bounds of what's comfortable. And that sense of courage allows people to explore new territory, to try new things, which can often lead to beneficial outcomes.

Michelle (09:51)

Mm -hmm.

Paul Austin (09:58)

because so oftentimes we get stuck in ruts, we get stuck in default patterns, we get stuck in doing the same thing over and over again. And we often need a little push to break those habits and those cycles and learn to be, to sort of, I would say, regulate ourselves in the midst of uncertainty and chaos.

Michelle (10:17)

Right. And then just to kind of be clear, it's not, you're not getting the courage, it's not like you're going to be more of a risk taker per se. It's just, it gives you more of that feeling where you're able to more.

Paul Austin (10:32)

Yeah, it depends on the context, right? There are some people who certainly they go drink ayahuasca, they smoke five MEO, or they do these more higher therapeutic doses of psychedelics and they it impacts them in such a way that they make decisions that sometimes they later regret like this is part of the education around responsible psychedelic use is if you have a really big experience, give it time before you're making any major life decisions.

Michelle (10:49)

Mm -hmm.

But with microdosing specifically, it's not. Yeah, yeah.

Paul Austin (10:58)

with microdosing not so much, right? And so that's sort of the upside or benefit, especially to someone who's fairly new to this is it's almost like contained risk taking, you know, not unhealthy risk taking or not impulsive behavior that could be detrimental or maladaptive, right? We're really looking at just a slight uptick in, oh, I'd like to try a new thing. Like I think it would be helpful to do something that's slightly uncomfortable. Like,

Cold plunging would be a really good example. Cold plunging is very uncomfortable. But we know that it's very beneficial and very safe. And so that's really for a lot of people would be a risk, but it's a very healthy potential beneficial risk.

Michelle (11:28)

Mm.

Yeah.

Right.

And neuroplasticity, people are hearing that for the first time, it basically means that you can rewire your brain and kind of make changes. Is it beneficial in the sense that it almost allows you to change habits more easily than without it?

Paul Austin (11:56)

So there's been some interesting research on octopus with MDMA. So octopi are normally very independent. They're not really all that social. And there was a researcher at Johns Hopkins who gave them MDMA. And noticed that for this critical learning period of time, they were more pro -social, they played together, they were in that way. And that taught them these new patterns and new behaviors that they continued to exhibit after the MDMA totally passed through their system two weeks, three weeks later.

And so the sort of, that's probably one of the most interesting elements. Cal Berkeley, UC Berkeley is now carrying out further research on that. They just received a $6 million grant from the Bob and Renee Parsons Foundation. Bob was the founder of GoDaddy and is now supporting psychedelic research. And so they're studying what is that critical learning period after we do a high therapeutic dose. And what it looks like is it's two to three weeks.

where there's this open window of change in your brain where it just becomes easier to try new things, to weave in new patterns and weave in new behaviors, to develop what's called cortical plasticity, to develop more gray matter in the brain. All of this helps our brain become younger, communicate better, helps us to have more energy.

And it's also related to just overall inflammation, which it could be the tie into fertility as well. When we're looking at overall, you know, holistic health metrics to track and understand it's inflammation. And psychedelics are shown to have a beneficial and positive outcome and impact on lowering inflammation. And because, and that's also, it's also why it has an impact on neuroplasticity. Because when we lower inflammation in the gut, we lower it in the brain.

Michelle (13:22)

Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Paul Austin (13:41)

when there's less inflammation in the brain, the brain becomes younger, it becomes healthier, it becomes more like a sponge, if you will. And so that impact on inflammation, I think is responsible for a lot of the, there are people who heal shingles with microdosing. There are people who have gotten through Lyme disease with low doses of psychedelics. There are people who found beneficial outcomes for cluster headaches, which are one of the most, like,

Michelle (14:04)

Mm -hmm.

Paul Austin (14:09)

just awful feelings in the world and then fertility as well. So when I look at that overall holistic impact, I'm really wanting to understand its impact in inflammatory markers in particular, and if by significantly reducing those, it helps to create more space for things like babies.

Michelle (14:28)

So MDMA is that what is in psilocybin, like mushrooms?

Paul Austin (14:35)

MDMA is also known as ecstasy psilocybin is what's in mushrooms. So psilocybin is also produced synthetically That is a tryptamine. It's a certain typical classic psychedelic MDMA is what's called allophenethylamine and it has a methamphetamine component It's more stimulating which can really help with PTSD in particular. So MDMA will be approved by the FDA most likely this year

Michelle (14:40)

Uh huh.

Mm -hmm.

Paul Austin (15:00)

to treat PTSD. So by the end of this year, there will be medically available MDMA for people who have PTSD. Psilocybin will be a few years on, but it's currently legal in Colorado and Oregon and potentially soon in California and other states.

Michelle (15:16)

So if somebody was to, were to want to do this therapeutically, are you able to do this therapeutically, psilocybin other than those states?

Paul Austin (15:27)

Well, yes and no, right? Like there are, there are plenty of people who work with psilocybin in underground circles. There are a lot of people who grow their own mushrooms. We have a little cute grow kit on third wave where we make it really easy for you to grow your own mushrooms. There are a lot of people who fly and travel to Oregon or they fly and travel to Colorado. I also had a previous project many years ago where I set up a legal center in the Netherlands.

We'd have people fly over there, a lot of Americans fly over to the Netherlands to do a high dose retreat experience. But all of the policy is really focused on these high dose therapeutic experiences. There isn't a lot that's done specific to micro dosing. So one project that I've been focused on building has been something called the micro dosing collective, which is a 501c3 nonprofit to pass policy.

related to adult use of psilocybin so people can have access to microdosing and can do it at home legally. Right now, most of this is illegal. But it's...

Michelle (16:36)

Yeah. So obviously I don't want to like be telling people to do anything illegal, especially here on the podcast. Like I don't want to, you know, that's not the message here, but I do want people, if they're interested to know what avenues they could do that was, legal.

Paul Austin (16:53)

which are basically these retreat options, I mean, in Oregon and Colorado. We also on third wave, we have directory of clinics, ketamine clinics. Ketamine is legal and used widely for various issues and conditions. It's very safe, it's very effective. It's been approved by the FDA for treatment resistant depression, but generic ketamine is also widely available. So folks wanna stay on the right side of the law. So to say, ketamine clinics are great.

Michelle (17:02)

Mm -hmm.

Paul Austin (17:21)

a lot of retreat centers in Oregon and Colorado that are starting to open as well as Costa Rica, other places in South America, the Netherlands, even Canada. So there are more and more options that are coming online. And again, by the end of this year, MDMA will be medically available. My expectation is that within five to six years, we'll see widespread accessibility through various channels of psychedelics and plant medicines. And...

Even now, if you kind of know how to look or where to look and Third Wave is a great resource for that, you can do things that are totally legal and very effective currently. There are lots of options for that.

Michelle (17:56)

Let's talk about ketamine because I actually have heard, I remember going to a conference and they talked about ketamine and the benefits that... What I like about it, I mean, obviously this isn't my specialty at all. I don't really know about my medicine in general. It's not my specialty, but I know that a lot of my patients coming in,

they were taking antidepressants, like a lot of things that I hear is it's very hard to get off of it. Sometimes people would say they almost feel like a numbness in their emotion. It sounds like what's being given mainstream is not the best option, like for long -term, and it's not a real solution. It's more just let's get through this. And I'm not saying to get off anything. If you are on it, obviously listen to whatever

Your doctors are telling you, you know, whoever you're choosing to work with, it just doesn't seem to me from listening to what my patients are telling me that it is something that is long -term or root, you know, like a root cause perspective. Whereas what I'm understanding from ketamine and even microdosing just based on what I've heard is that it gets into the root.

of what's happening gets you really to the root to clear out what it is that's causing the depression or any kind of anxiety. So I've heard a lot of great things about ketamine that it works, it sustains itself. If you do it, it actually has a lasting effect and changes and rewires the brain, which is what got my attention. Because it's much better if you don't have to

something for the rest of your life. Or that if you get off of it, you're going to have all kinds of symptoms. So it's so much better to know that there's something out there that could possibly really make a lasting healing effect on the mind. So talk to us about ketamine. And obviously that is legal. And it's something that it's a great option, it seems like for a lot of people, like who should look into it or consider it and who should not.

Paul Austin (20:11)

The academies are great.

Michelle (20:12)

So it's three questions.

Paul Austin (20:14)

Yeah, I'll do my best. If I don't cover anything, we can circle back. But ketamine's a, it's a class, it's a disassociative. It's been used since like the 1950s as an anesthetic in emergency rooms. It's one of the most widely used drugs in the world. It's incredibly safe at even very high doses for sedation, especially of young kids in the ER. And they found out, I don't know, maybe 20, 25 years ago that it had antidepressant effects.

Michelle (20:17)

I'll remind you.

Paul Austin (20:41)

And so it's fantastic for suicidality. It immediately interrupts those thought patterns. It's one of the best currently available treatments for suicidality. It's really helpful for depression. A lot of therapists are now using lower doses of ketamine within a therapeutic practice. So they'll do a two hour session instead of a one hour session and guide someone through a low dose of ketamine as part of that container. That's what we call a psycholytic approach. It's similar to microdosing or low dosing, but just slightly more.

And ketamine is legal everywhere. It's widely available. There are in -person clinics. There's also the opportunity to do ketamine at home. I've done both. I've gone into clinics and worked with ketamine and I've also done it at home. Both have upsides and downsides. The IV ketamine, which happens in a clinic is more intense and it's more of a sterile, a bit of more of a sterile environment.

Some clinics don't provide great support. Some clinics do. You want to work in a, go to a clinic that provides great therapeutic support as part of your treatment protocol. At home, you have a friend or a family member who's sitting for you and virtual coaching, but the ketamine is simply sent to your home. You do it in the safety of your own home. A lot of people enjoy that. And as long as they get the dosage correct, you know,

adverse outcomes are minimal. They happen, but they're very minimal with ketamine. And I think it could be a really great bridge or sort of transition point for, especially if people are on SOS or on antidepressants, it may be a new useful modality that could be helpful and effective. This isn't necessarily the case for everyone, but maybe 60 to 70 % of people find that ketamine works for them and is effective. And, you know, I think it's...

It's for me at least and for a lot of people I would say there's something deeper in mushrooms and ayahuasca and these classic psychedelics that ketamine doesn't offer as much. Ketamine is good to do every now and then. I love to do it in combination with body work or massage because it has an anesthetic effect so I can work with practitioners that can get deep into tissue and fascia which can be very, very helpful for just creating more space in the body.

So I have very intentional use cases for it in specific contexts, but by and large, I try not to use it much because it is a disassociative, it can be addictive. If you do it consistently for a period of time, it can cause bladder issues. And so it's good to have sort of a every now and then approach to working with ketamine after maybe an initial treatment protocol. The initial treatment protocol typically calls for six to eight to 10 treatments within the first two to three.

Michelle (23:03)

Mm -hmm.

Paul Austin (23:22)

to four months, right? Pretty concentrated and focused initial treatment.

Michelle (23:25)

Yeah, and also, I mean, a lot of this obviously is medicinal and like any medicine, you should really be aware of like what you should do or not do. I definitely highly suggest talking to somebody qualified and obviously doing it through the

But what do you suggest if somebody's

Because it is something that like can be potentially, depending on like any trauma that you have in the past, it can potentially put you at a place of extreme vulnerability as well. What are some things that people should be aware of if they're looking into this?

Paul Austin (24:03)

You wanna find a great provider or a great practitioner, someone you can trust, someone that has an ethical practice, has integrity, is compassionate, is experienced ideally. And you wanna really interview the person who you're intending to sit with or the provider or the clinic or the retreat that you're planning to go to. You wanna know these people. So I typically tell people to focus on five aspects.

There should be an assessment process. They should do an intake on your personal background and history. You know, if you're on any medications, if you do have a history of certain, you know, trauma or alcohol, whatever it is, right? All of that is important to know and for you to communicate to them in an initial intake. Then they can assess whether they can support you or whether they need to refer you out to someone who can.

support you. So that's also an important element of working with the practitioners, you want to make sure you're in good care, you want to make sure you're in the hands of someone who you know can take care of you and facilitate and guide you through a safe and effective experience. So asking, kind of getting making sure there's an intake form, asking them what they do for preparation, do they offer preparation support, what type of preparation support.

What's the experience like? How much medicine? What medicine are we taking? How long does it last? Right? And what might be some of the different elements of it? And then what do they do for integration? So going back to that critical learning period that we talked about, how do they support the integration process? Do they offer support after a, you know, working with a psychedelic experience? And then what, what do they know about microdosing? That would be the fifth one. Can, can they help coach you through or support you?

Michelle (25:40)

it. I mean, this is definitely a fascinating topic, I will say. And I do think that it's, it has a huge place in the future of mind, body of medicine.

I just think that there's just so much potential here, which is why I really wanted to have you on. Like it was just definitely something that I was like, okay, this is going to be a really interesting conversation. That being said, I don't think that it's for everybody. And I definitely think that people need to like look into it, but it's,

educational. It's really important that people listen and hear that there is a potential for this. And I do think that it could be a huge asset to mind medicine and hoping that, obviously, it could be done in a way that can really benefit with qualified practitioners or people that really know what they're doing, because it is potent. That's why I say it's not for everybody. It is a very potent medicine. It's not something that should just be...

taken without thought. So yeah, if people want to learn more, what kind of resources do you offer and how can people find you?

Paul Austin (26:47)

Yeah, so if this, if this made anyone curious, so they want to dive in, learn more, we have, I've hosted my own podcast for years now. We have over 250 episodes. Uh, so you can jump into the podcast. You could, we have a bunch of guides on our homepage of the different substances. You can dive into those with a lot of the research and context on them. We have the directory that I mentioned. So all of that's available. And then if there are any people who want to take the next step, who want to go deeper.

We offer coaching support as well through a one -to -one coaching program called personalized psychedelic coaching. So reach out to us, let us know how we could support. This was a fun, quick hit, quick dive into psychedelics and microdosing. And if anyone wants to reach out to me individually, I'm on Instagram and Twitter quite a bit, PaulAustin3W, so find me there.

Michelle (27:39)

I'll have all the links shared in the episode notes if anybody wants to check it out. And Paul, this is a really interesting conversation. I really appreciate you coming on and elaborating and explaining more about the therapeutics of psychedelics.

Paul Austin (27:53)

Thank you, Michelle. This was a ton of fun.

EP 288 Real Food for Fertility | Lily Nichols

Lily Nichols is a Registered Dietitian/Nutritionist, Certified Diabetes Educator, researcher, and author with a passion for evidence-based prenatal nutrition. Drawing from the current scientific literature and the wisdom of traditional cultures, her work is known for being research-focused, thorough, and sensible. Her bestselling book, Real Food for Gestational Diabetes (and online course of the same name), presents a revolutionary nutrient-dense, lower carb approach for managing gestational diabetes. Her work has not only helped tens of thousands of women manage their gestational diabetes (most without the need for blood sugar-lowering medication), but has also influenced nutrition policies internationally. Lily’s clinical expertise and extensive background in prenatal nutrition have made her a highly sought after consultant and speaker in the field. 

Lily’s second book, Real Food for Pregnancy, is an evidence-based look at the gap between conventional prenatal nutrition guidelines and what's optimal for mother and baby. With over 930 citations, this is the most comprehensive text on prenatal nutrition to date. Lily is also creator of the popular blog, www.LilyNicholsRDN.com, which explores a variety of topics related to real food, mindful eating, and pregnancy nutrition. 

Website & Social media links (Facebook, instagram, twitter)

https://lilynicholsrdn.com/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lilynicholsrdn/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/PilatesNutritionist

Twitter: https://twitter.com/LilyNicholsRDN

Book: https://realfoodforfertility.com/

Takeaways

• Optimizing health prior to conception is crucial for a healthy pregnancy.

• Balancing macronutrients, such as carbohydrates and protein, is important for fertility.

• Including organ meats, like liver, in the diet can provide essential nutrients for fertility.

• Concerns about toxins in liver are unfounded, as the liver does not store toxins.

• Vitamin A toxicity is rare and usually associated with synthetic supplements, not whole food sources like liver.

Transcript:

Michelle (00:00)

Welcome to the podcast, Lily.

Lily (00:01)

Thanks for having me.

Michelle (00:02)

I'm definitely excited to talk to you a lot about your book that just came out, which by the way, congratulations, it looks like it's doing phenomenal as I knew it would. it just has so many great tips and information and research.

So, before we get started, I'd love for you to introduce yourself, your background, how you got into this work, and also what inspired you to write the book with Lisa.

Lily (00:24)

Yeah, sure. So first of all, thank you for the kind words in the book. We're very excited that it's been welcomed with open arms. My work, my professional background is as a registered dietitian nutritionist and also a diabetes educator. And I've really spent the majority of my career working in the women's health space, spanning the whole childbearing years from preconception through pregnancy, postpartum recovery, breastfeeding.

Also focusing on certain pregnancy complications, especially gestational diabetes. So that's really what I found working in many different areas in the prenatal space from clinical practice to public policy to training other practitioners to not just like conventional clinical practice, but my own private practice is that.

There's often a significant difference between what actually works well for helping to maintain optimal health and healthy pregnancies versus what the guidelines recommend that we do. And so a lot of the whole reason I even started writing books was that it became kind of frustrating to me hearing from clients who, or from other practitioners who were kind of dutifully following the guidelines and their clients were not getting.

Michelle (01:16)

Mm-hmm.

Lily (01:36)

good results. And I happen to love reading research and writing about it and having kind of worked through some of these issues myself already in practice, I decided to take to writing about it to get it to a wider audience outside of just my own clinical practice. So yeah, we now have three books. I have Real Food for Gestational Diabetes, my first one, Real Food for Pregnancy and now Real Food for Fertility.

And the whole reason that I thought adding this third book to the lineup would be helpful and why Lisa and I decided to do it together is that the whole issue of trying to have a healthy pregnancy, avoid complications, optimize your baby's development and all that, while what you eat during pregnancy certainly does matter, otherwise I wouldn't have written about it and wouldn't advocate for it.

Technically, if we really want to optimize outcomes, you want to be looking in advance of the pregnancy. You want to have a healthy lead up to that pregnancy, because a lot of the very sensitive periods of babies' development are in those early weeks. Many of us are aware of the conversation around folate and preventing neural tube defects, for example, and how you want to optimize your intake preconception. I mean, public.

Public health only calls out one nutrient, but you can extend that same logic for a number of different nutrients. And if we can optimize health prior to conception, and ideally in both partners, not just mom, but also for dad, then we can optimize the chances of a healthy pregnancy. Part of why I really wanted Lisa on board for this project, I mean, we had been talking about doing this for years.

Michelle (03:01)

Yeah.

Lily (03:13)

was with her expertise in the menstrual cycle and hormonal health. I mean, she works with helping couples both conceive and also prevent pregnancy using fertility awareness. It's also an important part of the conversation to get your menstrual cycle in check, which reflects that your hormones are in check and your menstrual cycle is only in a good place when your nutrient status is in check. And if you wanna achieve pregnancy, you could be doing everything perfectly right, but if you're not getting the timing right.

Michelle (03:34)

Mm-hmm.

Lily (03:40)

for sex, you're not going to conceive if you're not, you know, doing this in your fertile window. If you're not in your fertile window, pregnancy isn't going to happen, right? So bringing in that conversation around hormones and the menstrual cycle, kind of using your cycle as a reflection of what might be going on health-wise, which can sort of steer you in the direction of areas that need some attention, and also building in the conversation around male health and sperm quality.

Michelle (03:41)

Mm-hmm.

Bye.

Lily (04:05)

That's really where Lisa shines. So I think we really, you know, brought our heads together to bring you the best of both worlds so we can optimize fertility, optimize your chances of conception, and then also pave the way for a healthier pregnancy ahead.

Michelle (04:18)

Yeah, I mean, it is very important to definitely start early because obviously the quality that you'll get from the sperm and the egg is going to make a huge difference in the pregnancy. So it is something that like, I remember this is way back when I was getting, when I was trying, and people were talking to me about folic acid at the time, it was folic acid, not folate. That's kind of what they were talking about a lot.

And people were saying, you have to do this way before you even start, because obviously it's such an important part, that early section. And you can't just have your body ready with all the nutrients when you give it to the body right at that point. You have to do it ahead of time, because obviously your body needs to process and it has to translate. And I remember you talking about sperm and egg.

really like the food being similar for both. And I thought that was really cool because sometimes it seems kind of like this two separate thing, but it really is ultimately like us humans, our bodies need nutrients and those nutrients help reproductive health. And it's nice to know that, you know, it's nice to look at it that way, that it really is like the quality is impacted.

similarly for men and women with very similar foods. So I wanted, I mean, I know this is a long range, but if you could just talk about like the basics, the macros, that people should be focusing on when it comes to sperm and egg quality.

Lily (05:36)

Sure. Yes, there is thankfully a lot of overlap between male and female health, although there are some differences as well. But the kind of take home point is that doing a lot of the same health practices has carry over benefits for both. You don't need to be cooking separate meals for your partner just because, yeah. So

Michelle (05:53)

Yeah.

Lily (05:55)

Some of the things that are really key for both male and female fertility are keeping your blood sugar in a healthy range. And so when it comes to carbohydrates, for example, finding a level of carbohydrates that your body can process without experiencing significant hyperglycemia, like high blood sugar after meals, is optimal. A lot of that comes down to the quality of carbohydrates

Michelle (06:16)

Mm-hmm.

Lily (06:18)

less processed whole food carbohydrates, you know, your fruits, your vegetables, even a little bit of whole grains or fermented grains like sourdough, beans, legumes, like those sorts of things have much, although they do impact blood sugar levels, they have a much lesser effect on blood sugar levels than if most of your carbohydrates are coming from sugar, white flour, all the refined grains and the processed foods.

In the U.S. we're in a situation where 58% of calories on the average American diet are coming from ultra processed foods. And those are usually foods that have a base of some type of refined sugar, like corn syrup, some type of a refined starch, like white flour, low quality, like vegetable oil, seed oils, and then all the other ingredients that you can't even pronounce.

that are in there to make this food-like substance actually appeal. And so if we just shift the balance over to whole foods, massive benefits, not just for blood sugar levels, but nutrient intake. Another key one is getting your protein in check. Protein does not raise your blood sugar levels unlike carbohydrates, and so having plenty of protein with every single time you're eating, having some form of protein.

whether it's a meal or a snack, can do a lot to help blunt the elevation in blood sugar that we experience naturally from carbohydrate foods. So especially starting your morning with a protein-rich breakfast for both male and female clients is hugely important to setting the stage for healthy blood sugar and insulin levels, healthy cortisol levels, healthy hormone balance for the rest of the day. And then...

Since most of our whole food protein sources naturally come with fat. So think like eggs come with the yolk, chicken has skin, steak has fat on it, right? Like nuts and seeds have fat. If we're not taking out the fat out of our whole protein rich foods obsessively, we kind of don't even have to like really worry all that much about the fat conversation. But if you leave the fat intact in the whole food,

Michelle (08:11)

Yeah.

Lily (08:16)

Those foods are going to be more satiating. They fill you up, they keep you fuller for longer. They help sustain healthier blood sugar levels, and they have a number of nutrients in them that are important for our health, especially our fat-soluble vitamins. Absolutely vital that you have enough of those for fertility.

Michelle (08:30)

second.

Another thing that I do notice actually with a lot of my patients, and I've seen this more recently, it doesn't always happen, but people skipping breakfast. And I wanna talk about that because I know that there's been a lot of research on intermittent fasting and it was beneficial for men and it was researched really for men. It wasn't researched as much for women.

And I just, I also know and heard that like cortisol can rise from skipping breakfast and that can throw off hormones. And I wanted to get your take on that and why it's important really to eat breakfast and have protein rich foods, especially in good healthy fats.

Lily (09:04)

Yeah.

Yeah, we do have a section on intermittent fasting in the book because we're asked about it all the time. So ultimately, yeah, most of the research on intermittent fasting has been done in men. There's been a little bit of work in women and in very specific instances, which I can talk about, it can be a tool that's beneficial. But for the most part, intermittent fasting for women raises some red flags.

Primary reason is that our menstrual cycle is very sensitive to disruptions in energy intake. And not just energy intake over the whole day, but like even periods of time within the day where your body senses what we'd refer to as low energy availability. So you're not eating for certain periods of time during the day, long spans of time during the day, particularly in those who are exercising a lot.

When your body senses that there's not fuel there, the response is a reduction in your hormone levels. And so we see in women who under eat, and we even have like controlled feeding trials on this where they can measure precisely the level of caloric deficit that results in menstrual cycle disturbances. If your calorie intake dips below about 25%, so you're eating a,

quarter less food than you, your body actually needs, you see hormonal changes. Um, and within a couple of months that typically results in an issue with the menstrual cycle. Um, oftentimes it starts with like a short luteal phase or premenstrual spotting or more PMS or something like that. Um, and then ends up with ultimately complete anovulation. You stop ovulating and eventually stop cycling altogether. Um, so.

you essentially set up a situation of hypothalamic amenorrhea. So if we're restricting our food intake too low, this is going to happen. When most people do intermittent fasting, they're doing it in a way where they skip a meal. Oftentimes it is breakfast. And what we know from the research on skipping breakfast is these people are not making up the caloric deficit at their other meals. So they still over the course of the day, end up eating less food.

you couple that with the sort of mindset that most people go into intermittent fasting with. Most people who are attempting intermittent fasting are doing it with the goal of weight loss. And so there's not really an approach of, oh, I'm just gonna eat all the same amount of food in a shorter eating window. It's like, oh no, I'm going to shorten my eating window and also eat less. So the trials that have shown

Michelle (11:27)

Bye.

Lily (11:29)

benefits for intermittent fasting for women. And these are very small studies by the way. So, you know, take it for what it is, but these are in women who have polycystic ovarian syndrome. They were overweight or obese. And so, you know, likely have some insulin resistance going on and may benefit their hormonal profile, may actually benefit from a little bit of weight loss. It can benefit from.

reducing levels of insulin resistance. The way they implemented intermittent fasting was they consumed all of their meals between 8 a.m. And 4 p.m. They didn't skip meals and they also didn't do it in a caloric deficit They simply ate their food at an early eating window in the day and in that trial they specifically had them continue to consume the same amount of calories. Now

Michelle (12:09)

Mm-hmm.

Lily (12:16)

This resulted in dramatic improvement in their PCOS. You saw improvement in their insulin, their blood sugar levels, their androgens, their just the whole hormonal profile also resulted in weight loss. But these are in women who can benefit from a little bit of weight loss. They're specifically not under eating and they're also not skipping breakfast. Breakfast is a time when your body is actually expecting.

Michelle (12:35)

Right.

Lily (12:38)

the most amount of food. Like we have trials for women with PCOS that are not intermittent fasting trials where they test out a same diet, but a different like breakdown of when you're having your calories. So they've done like large breakfast, moderate lunch, small dinner, or the reverse, small breakfast, moderate lunch, large dinner. And when you front load your food with a greater caloric intake at breakfast, tapering down over the day, even when the calories are matched, you see greater improvement.

in their metabolic health when you're front loading your food. And so this, essentially this intermittent fasting trial kind of did the same thing. Um, by default, by stopping eating at 4 PM, you are tapering down your, you know, caloric intake fairly early in the day. That may not be realistic or achievable for a lot of people, especially if you're a working person or you have, you know, a family and they're eating dinner at like six o'clock and you're missing out. Right.

But just to say there's different ways of achieving the same thing without having to cut off your eating window so early. But the greatest importance and what I've seen the most in practice benefiting my clients' metabolic health, whether or not they're trying to conceive or pregnant or postpartum, well whatever, male or female, is getting a sufficient protein-rich breakfast in.

really sets the stage for better regulation of your appetite and hunger and fullness cues throughout the day. Less like mindless eating and overeating and just better nutrient intake as a whole. And I think any of this, any of us can very easily experiment with this, right? Notice how you feel on the days when you skip breakfast. Notice how you feel in the days when you have an imbalanced, super high carb breakfast like

bagel or cereal or oatmeal and then notice the difference on the days when you're starting your morning with like eggs or maybe like Greek yogurt or cottage cheese like or leftover dinner that has protein in it some protein rich breakfast and notice how you feel through the morning at Your appetite at lunchtime whether you get an afternoon slump It's pretty easy within a couple days to like feel the difference for this. So

Michelle (14:19)

Right.

Lily (14:41)

I always am like trying to bring people back to their own body. Like how do you feel when you do this? Because my experience with clients really across the board is most feel better when they're getting that balanced breakfast in versus skipping it.

Michelle (14:56)

it's true. I love that you kind of get people to tune in with themselves. Like, how does this feel for you? Because ultimately, I think that that's the best experiment you can feel it from the inside out. You can really experience the feeling that it gives you. And also, Ayurvedic medicine, they always talk about Agni, which comes out, it increases, it's your own digestifier and your own digestifier is very much responsive to nature.

and when the sun comes out and during the day.

And at breakfast and at lunch, our Agni is the highest because of the way the sun is up. And during that time to take advantage of eating, because that's when our bodies are gonna be able to process and digest food the most. And we should actually taper it down towards the end of the day when the sun goes down, our digestive system goes down, our metabolism slows down, and we're ready. Our bodies are preparing for bed. And so it's very intuitive, you know, what you're saying.

Lily (15:48)

Yeah, it makes perfect sense. Yeah.

Michelle (15:50)

Yeah, let's talk about maybe the phases, the follicular phase and the luteal phase, anything that you can contribute. I'm sure there's just so much. So I'm going to be asking you questions where I'm sure that you can go really into detail and you're not going to be able to. But just to get like more of a general for people short

follicular phase. I know that a lot of attention is not really put on that. Most people are focusing on like luteal phase defect. as far as food, is there anything that you think about when it comes to a short follicular

Lily (16:18)

I mean the follicular phase is naturally going to be shortening over time as women approach menopause. So even starting in the late 30s, you can women just start sort of prepping for ovulation like earlier, like even maybe when they're you know, towards the end of their last cycle. And so some of that may just be an age thing.

I will say, under-eating as a whole does tend to shorten the cycle length, and that would probably also carry over into the follicular phase a little bit, although we usually are focusing on the luteal phase defect, where it's getting shorter, you start having other symptoms of low progesterone levels and all of that. So I would say...

take a look at your overall caloric intake. Like are you overdoing it with the exercise and then under fueling with food as a whole? We see lower hormone levels in women who are not only under eating but specifically under eating fat. And...

Michelle (17:17)

Mm-hmm.

Lily (17:18)

So if that's going on, there's a possibility that your hormone levels across the board, not just progesterone, but also estrogen could be lower. I mean, we have trials where they have specifically assigned women to a low fat diet for the purpose of lowering estrogen levels because we thought maybe that would be, you know, preventative for estrogen driven breast cancers later in life, right? And it works, you put people on a low.

diet their estrogen levels plummet as well as their progesterone. So I would take a look at your macro balance are you being too restrictive on fat? Like I said since fat goes hand-in-hand with protein like other than what you're adding separate to food if you're under eating protein you're probably also under eating more likely to be under eating fat as well because they often come packaged together.

Addressing the low fat issue may also involve addressing a low protein intake as a whole. And for those who are really like aware of calories from food, you know that fat is a more concentrated source of calories. So oftentimes for people who are calorie counting and dieting, that's the nutrient that they try to eliminate the most. So I would have some awareness on that. You may want to like dial down.

the exercise a little bit as well. Typically, when we think of nutrient changes over the cycle, the luteal phase, it's a little bit mixed in the research, but generally, we expect a slight increase in calorie requirements in the luteal phase. It seems to be that the desire for more food and specific cravings are more common in those who have

hormonal issues like low progesterone levels, maybe your body's trying to like make up for it, eat a little more so we can keep that hormone production going. But if that egg was not in the best quality because it wasn't, you were undernourished during the follicular phase, you're gonna have that show up in the luteal phase as well, right? So I think it kind of comes full circle, but I would say focusing on nutrient adequacy.

Michelle (18:52)

Yeah, right.

Lily (19:11)

would be where I would target it. While also acknowledging the follicular phase is likely just going to get shorter over time, the closer you get to menopause. And that's not necessarily something you have to like super stress about if everything else seems to be okay.

Michelle (19:25)

Another thing that I actually noticed as you were talking, it's something that I've noticed like maybe once or twice, like that there's a link for me that I've seen with vegan diets impacting a shorter follicular phase. two cases that I'm kind of like thinking in my mind. And I'm wondering if it's because you're not, you're not really getting the animal fat.

Lily (19:35)

Mmm.

Yeah.

Michelle (19:45)

you're not getting the same kind of protein as you would from animal protein. It's just, and there's a lot of nutrients that you're also not able to really get with a vegan diet.

Lily (19:45)

and protein.

Yes, and that's definitely an area worth mentioning for sure. We have a whole chapter on vegetarian diets that goes into quite a bit of detail. So vegans in particular tend to eat fewer calories, less protein, and less fat than their omnivorous counterparts. And we do see a significantly higher rate of hypothalamic amenorrhea.

in vegetarians and vegans, likely for that reason. There also tends to be, it's not always, but there's a higher prevalence of eating disorders among that group. In a way, it kind of gives you like the perfect cover for your eating disorder. Actually, I was just doing an interview with another podcast recently where the host was talking about that being part of her history, that she did use a vegetarian diet and a vegan diet to sort of cover.

for the eating disorder. Oh, I can't have any, is it vegan? Oh no, no thanks, right? Like you could just decline food across the board because it doesn't meet whatever standards or restrictions are part of the diet. So that can be another reason where it's like, yes, there are legitimate concerns about nutrient adequacy, but also some people are doing it as a way to restrict their caloric intake as well, which.

regardless of which foods are or are not in your diet, a caloric deficit is gonna create problems. But I do see significantly higher rate of cycle issues in vegetarian and vegan clients. And this is not just my practice, not just your practice. This is like per all the documented research as well. Is that a statistically higher rate on average, even if it's not gonna affect every single person who's on such a diet.

Michelle (21:27)

Yeah, I see it quite a bit. some people really take it like religiously. It's something that they really feel ethically very connected to. So depending on how people feel, and then some people just don't like the taste of meat in which I'll...

offer beef liver pills and things like that to get around that. And we talked about Oregon meats actually last time, and I loved our conversation on that. I would love to get your take again on Oregon meats and why Oregon meats are superior really. And they're so nutrient dense and supportive for overall health, fertility health,

Lily (21:44)

Yeah.

Michelle (22:01)

We'd love to get your thoughts on that because I thought that was such an interesting topic we spoke about.

Lily (22:03)

Sure.

Yeah, so I mean, cross-culturally, there has often been an emphasis on including certain nutrient-rich foods in the diet prior to conception and during pregnancy, kind of prioritizing them for the child-bearing future parents in the tribe, male or female. And that's kind of for good reason, if you look at the micronutrient content of them.

Each organ has different nutrients that are particularly high in this organ versus that organ. Liver tends to be the most nutrient dense. There's a few exceptions for some micronutrients that are higher in like heart or spleen or kidney or some of these other organs. They certainly have their place, even if they're maybe less commonly consumed in our current Western diet. But we see...

vastly higher rates of things like higher levels of nutrients like vitamin b12, choline, iron, zinc, vitamin a certainly and liver, and many different minerals in there as well. Both the big ones like iron and zinc and some of the like minerals we need in slightly smaller amounts like selenium and whatnot copper. So

Those foods, even when eaten in fairly small quantities, kind of act as like, uh, almost like a way to fortify your diet with extra nutrients. So if anybody has ever done like a cow share, for example, where you're buying the meat from a whole animal, you can also choose to get organs, which I always do, but you get, you know, hundreds of pounds of meat, maybe from a single cow and you get one liver, right? Which might be like,

Michelle (23:35)

Mm-hmm.

Lily (23:36)

the biggest liver I've ever gotten was like eight pounds. Must have been a big cow. But like you you're not getting like a huge amount relative to the rest of the meat that you're getting, but by including it in your diet, it doesn't have to be every day. We're talking maybe once a week or once every other week. Having a little bit of organ meats in there really does fortify your diet with a lot of these nutrients that are in lesser quantities in muscle meat. So

B12 for example, it's like 200 times more concentrated in organ meats than it is in muscle meats. If you were to calculate out the vitamin A for liver versus muscle meats, it'd be crazy because liver is the by far the richest source of vitamin A in our diets, like bar none. So these nutrients are really vitally important to the processes of ovulation, for the formation of sperm, for the

liver and organ meats have cholesterol in them and all of our steroid hormones are built on a backbone of cholesterol. So they're giving us kind of the raw materials necessary for our fertility. So huge fan of including some organ meats every once in a while in your diet. I have to give those qualifiers because sometimes when people hear me talking about organ meats, they think that I'm eating liver like three times a day or something. And I'm like, no, maybe like once a week, but.

Michelle (24:49)

Yeah.

Lily (24:49)

having it as part of the diet and it often does need to be specifically something you focus on because many of us do not have the taste for including liver. It's something we have to go out of our way to find because oftentimes it's not at the regular grocery store. Like I talk about it because of its nutrient density but I also have to like you know clarify quantity and frequency of consumption. So for those who do not

want to or don't have access to or do not enjoy the flavor of eating liver or organ meats, there are yes, desiccated organ supplements on the market. And yes, I've seen those provide huge benefits for clients who aren't consuming animal foods otherwise. That and also shellfish, like oysters or clams are very nutrient dense. And sometimes I'll have vegan clients who are willing to consume those, but not organ meats, right? So whatever gets it,

gets the nutrients down the hatches, you know, whatever works.

Michelle (25:40)

Yeah, for sure. And so I actually wanted to talk about two common concerns that people have with liver. They think that because it cleans out toxins, that And then also the vitamin A content, because they think about vitamin A toxicity, which is different in food versus just taking vitamin A pills. So I'd love your take on that.

Lily (26:01)

Yes, so yeah, we'll cover the toxin conversation. People are often very concerned about the toxin levels in liver. If you look at the data we have on like analyzing the levels of toxins and heavy metals and other things in different parts of an animal, the liver is not particularly higher in those contaminants than other parts of the animal. So I always find it kind of weird that people want to zero in on

I'm not going to eat that because it might be higher in contaminants when it doesn't even hold true. But be the quantity of liver you're consuming relative to muscle meats. You'd probably be getting more toxins overall from the muscle meats, but also you can find a reason to make any food like evil, right? You can find a reason to avoid anything. We're not gonna eat rice because the arsenic. We're not gonna have

Michelle (26:35)

Yeah, but also...

It's true.

Lily (26:49)

I don't know, we're not going to have shellfish because it might have cadmium or lead, even though you don't absorb most of what's in there. We're not going to have fish because of mercury, likewise, you don't absorb most of what's in there. If you really want to take it to that level, you are going to find something wrong with every single food. With liver though, it functions more as a...

Michelle (27:06)

It's true.

Lily (27:10)

It's somewhat of a filter because it filters your blood, of course. It's not holding on to all the toxins, but it also transforms the toxins. But a lot of what the liver does is there's different stages of detoxification and part of what it does is attach molecules and things to the toxins to make them easier for your body to excrete.

and then they're excreted in the bile, or maybe they go through the bloodstream and are excreted through the kidneys, or maybe you sweat and you sweat it out through your skin, or maybe it grows out through your hair, but it's not holding onto the toxins. It's trying to make them less toxic so your body can excrete them through your pathways of detoxification. So I think it's silly to think of the liver as a storehouse of toxins that actually isn't really true. It is a storehouse of nutrients

Michelle (27:43)

Right.

Lily (27:57)

process of all the things the liver does, detoxification is just one of many, many functions. Those are highly nutrient dependent activities. So it does hold on to nutrients because you need these nutrients as cofactors for all these different liver enzymes that are actively doing so many jobs to keep you alive. So if anything the liver is a storehouse of nutrients, not toxins.

is a storehouse for vitamin A. It really is. It has more vitamin A than any other food and it is also a storehouse for a number of other nutrients as well. Whether the vitamin A and liver is particularly toxic, A, I think we have to be speaking about the quantity. As I said, I'm not recommending people consume massive quantities of liver. I'm talking three to six ounces a week, which provides

less vitamin A than the so-called tolerable upper limit. The concerns over toxicity I think are twofold. A lot of people are worried about pregnancy specifically. You have to understand the studies they use to show that an intake of vitamin A was potentially toxic to the fetus was from synthetic supplemental vitamin A.

Michelle (29:03)

Right.

Lily (29:03)

So you can measure the metabolites in the blood after consuming vitamin A from different sources and you do not see the spikes in the harmful metabolites of vitamin A to the same degree from whole food sources like liver as you do from isolated synthetic vitamin A supplements. That said, I still don't recommend people consume so much liver that you're exceeding the tolerable upper limit, which again, three to six ounces of liver a week is perfectly fine.

There's a caveat, if you're up in the Arctic, don't eat polar bear liver because it is ridiculously concentrated in vitamin A. You can legitimately get toxicity, but you're not getting that level of vitamin A from beef liver, chicken liver, something like that. The case studies we have on vitamin A toxicity, which by the way usually self-resolves anyways, even if it is encountered, but nonetheless. These are in people...

Michelle (29:36)

Mm-hmm.

Right.

Lily (29:53)

I haven't seen one documented other than there was one case study in small children who were given like four ounces of chicken liver every day. They're infants. That's too much. That's too much liver. So yeah, exactly. I'm like what? But that again in that case study that self-resolved on its own. All the other case studies I've seen

Michelle (30:04)

Yeah, it's too much. It's like, how do they even eat it?

Lily (30:15)

Um, we're either there's two I can think of that were polar bear liver. I've never seen one from chicken or beef liver. All the rest of the case studies on vitamin A toxicity are synthetic supplemental vitamin A, and they're usually people taking mega doses, like hundreds of thousands of I use a vitamin A per day daily for years, which if you equate that to liver would be like. Multiple pounds of liver per day, every single day for years, like

Michelle (30:37)

That's crazy. Wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right.

Lily (30:39)

something that you simply don't see in clinical practice. So I do recommend that people do keep an eye on their total vitamin A intake if they're big fans of liver or if they're doing liver capsules. And particularly if you're also taking like a multivitamin or a prenatal vitamin that has that preformed vitamin A, we don't wanna go crazy overboard.

I used to never need to give this caveat, but now that everybody's talking about organ needs and so many people are supplementing, I have had people come in where they're taking like a multi-organ supplement, a liver, desiccated liver supplement, and they're taking like the highest potency prenatal on the market that already has a decent amount of vitamin A. And I'm like, okay, well, we can probably cool it on some of these. Like the risk of overtly something terrible happening is quite slim.

Michelle (31:19)

Right. Somewhere.

Lily (31:25)

But I do think we're at a point where I'm like, okay, if you're consuming more than about the equivalent of like six ounces of liver per week, you just, your body simply doesn't need that much. And so if you have a case like that where they're taking in liver in many different forms plus like a high potency multivitamin, or even if they're taking, you know, a separate

all that much all on top of it. I still out of an abundance of caution keep my recommended intake below the tolerable upper limit. Even if you know that level it's set very conservatively but again from the most conservative angle I try to keep it under the tolerable upper limit just to be safe.

Michelle (32:03)

Yes. And then also, yeah, I mean, a lot of this is obviously common sense because like, people aren't going to eat like ridiculous amounts or shouldn't, you know, eat ridiculous amounts of anything. So it's just a matter of really balancing things out. As far as beef versus chicken liver, what are your thoughts on that?

Lily (32:20)

I mean, both are nutrient dense. There's a handful of things that may be higher in chicken liver off the top of my head without looking at a nutrient analysis. And I'm pretty sure I have a table of this in my article on liver and organ meats on my website. But off the top of my head, chicken liver is higher in folate. It's a little higher in iron. Beef liver is a little higher in...

vitamin A, for example. So you'll see slight differences in the nutritional profile. They're both ridiculously nutrient dense. You will certainly have differences in the flavor. So the liver from larger animals has a richer flavor than the liver from smaller animals like chickens. So, and also the texture is different. The liver from beef is a little more tough.

versus the liver from chicken tends to be very tender. So if somebody's brand new to consuming liver, I'm probably gonna have them opt for something like chicken liver and maybe try beef liver a little later. Some of it has to do with how you cook it too. If you look at like traditional recipes for cooking liver, it's usually kind of marinated or soaked in something for a while ahead of time that eases the flavor a bit. And then it is...

pan-fried at a kind of slightly lower temp and for a short period of time. You're not overcooking it. The longer you cook it, the more that kind of metallic iron flavor comes out and the tougher that it gets. So that's my only caveat there. I think chicken liver is an easier gateway into consuming liver than beef. But you could see what...

Michelle (33:36)

Bye.

Lily (33:50)

what you like. You can also do, you mentioned talking about other organ meats. So heart is a very, a much more mild flavor than liver. I mean, liver has a stronger, more metallic kind of flavor. So you can also do heart. Chicken hearts are like a delicacy in many countries and South America, they're often like skewered and grilled over the fire. You can even do like I have a recipe for Thai chili beef heart skewers on my website. Those can be like

It's much larger, so it has to be sliced up and everything, but when it's marinated, I mean, it's like a more flavorful steak. Heart is a very lean meat because it's a muscle, so it really has more of a steak kind of texture. You can slow cook it. We have like a beef heart stew recipe in real food for fertility that you could make. So that's an easier one for people to try.

Michelle (34:33)

Mm-hmm.

Lily (34:34)

even though the nutritional profile is a little different. Like there's no concerns about the vitamin A and in beef heart, for example, but it's really rich in iron, it's rich in CoQ10, it's rich in zinc, B12, many other things. It's like a slightly more robust, very lean muscle meat kind of a flavor.

Michelle (34:39)

Bye.

of course I could pick your brain for hours because you're just so well fed for information. I really enjoy talking to you. But I know that you have to go. And I would love for you to share with the listeners how they can find you and how they can find food for fertility.

And basically, do you work with people online or do you offer any?

Lily (35:10)

I'm not taking one-on-one clients anymore, but I do have referrals to the practitioners I train via the Institute for prenatal nutrition, many of which also specialize in fertility as well. But yeah, you can find me on my website, lillynicholsrdn.com. As I mentioned, there's, you know, when I refer to articles, those are all on my website. There's no paywall on my website. So just click the blog tab. You can search in the search bar for whatever search terms there are.

hundreds of articles up there. So definitely take advantage of that free resource. As for my books, you can find those on my site as well. Just go to the Books tab. Real Food for Fertility has its own website, real You can download the first chapter for free from that site and also check out the book on Amazon. And as far as social media, you can find me at

Lily Nichols RDN over on Instagram. That's usually where I am. I'm also on the other platforms. I just don't spend a whole lot of my time on social media as a whole these days.

Michelle (36:08)

Awesome. Well, Lily, it was such a pleasure talking to you. I love all of the information you shared, and I know that it's going to be so valuable. And you guys got to check out the book. It's amazing, Real Food for Fertility. Thank you so for coming on today.

Lily (36:22)

Thank you for having me.

EP 287 How Mindfulness Can Serve You on Your Fertility Journey | Josephine Atluri

Josephine Atluri is an author, certified life coach and an expert in meditation and mindfulness. A graduate of the University of Chicago, Josephine followed her passion for total wellness and has helped thousands of people overcome adversity to find joy. She supports and empowers organizations and individuals through her wellness retreats, classes and written work. Plus, her experience creating her modern day family of seven children via In Vitro fertilization, international adoption and surrogacy inspires her work as a highly sought-after fertility, pregnancy, and parenting mindfulness coach.

Josephine hosts a popular podcast, “Responding to Life: Talking Health, Fertility, & Parenthood,” where she interviews guests on their inspiring responses to life’s challenges. Her parenting mindfulness expertise and fertility advocacy work has been featured in the Huffington Post, Motherly, MindBodyGreen, The Bump, Prevention, Well+Good, and Woman’s Day. Josephine is the author of the books, “Mindfulness Journal for Parents” and “5 Minute Mindfulness for Pregnancy.” She also sits on the board of the nonprofit, Shero’s Rise, an organization dedicated to uplifting girls in underserved communities.

Website & Social media links (Facebook, instagram, twitter)

Website: www.jatluri.com

Instagram: @josephineratluri @respondingtolifepodcast

Url: https://www.instagram.com/josephineratluri/

YouTube Channel: https://bit.ly/3kIxDHQ

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/josephine-atluri-0aaa32129

Information on Josephine’s retreat can be found here:

https://www.jatluri.com/retreat-1 use coupon code LOTUS to get a discount!

Summary: Josephine shares her background in fertility mindfulness and meditation and how she got into the work. She discusses her own infertility journey, including failed IVF cycles, the loss of twins, and the decision to pursue international adoption and surrogacy. Josephine explains the concept of mindfulness as awareness coupled with curiosity and compassion. She emphasizes the importance of being present and using breathing techniques as a tool for reducing stress and finding calm. Josephine also talks about her books on mindfulness during pregnancy and parenthood and her retreats for women.

Takeaways:

• Fertility mindfulness and meditation can provide coping strategies and overall wellness care for individuals trying to build their families.

• Mindfulness is a lifestyle that involves being aware of oneself and the world, and it can lead to reduced stress, better sleep, improved immunity, and better relationships.

• Breathing techniques are a powerful tool for moving from a state of stress to a state of calm, and they can be practiced anywhere and anytime.

• Mindfulness can help individuals navigate the challenges and anxieties of pregnancy and parenthood, and it can be incorporated into daily life through various modalities.

• Being present and practicing mindfulness can lead to mental clarity, emotional freedom, and a deeper connection with oneself and the present moment.

For more information about Michelle, visit www.michelleoravitz.com

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook:https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

Transcript:

Michelle (00:00)

Welcome to the podcast, Josephine.

Jo (00:02)

Thanks for having me. I'm super excited to be speaking with you today.

Michelle (00:06)

Me too, so I'd love for you to start out with giving us your background and how you got into the work that you're doing.

Jo (00:13)

Yeah, so I am specializing in fertility mindfulness and meditation, and I was working in healthcare upon returning back to work many years ago. And I brought my consulting background with my healthcare background and went into meditation, but I was using it for more corporate wellness. And then I realized that,

when I was going through my own infertility journey that I could have really used these tools. And that's when I decided to pivot and really focus on providing mindfulness and overall wellness care for people who are trying to build their modern day families. I remember very well just feeling really stressed out and not having coping strategies. And so that's my...

biggest aim with the fertility mindfulness work that I do.

Michelle (01:15)

And then if you don't mind actually sharing your own journey

Jo (01:19)

Yeah, no, absolutely. It's actually started, it's like the 20th anniversary of when we first did our IVF cycle, feels like forever ago, which it is. And we knew we had to go straight into that because of healthcare issues, I mean health issues. And we went into it pretty naively because we were in our 20s and I thought that because...

of our age that it would happen pretty quickly. And it didn't. We went through a few infertility clinics and it didn't work out. Many failed cycles. We did end up getting pregnant with twins only to lose them at 17 weeks. And that's when we decided to pivot into international adoption. We always had that in our back pocket as another path to parenthood for us.

Michelle (02:10)

Sorry.

Jo (02:18)

given our history and so we pivoted there and then we were able to adopt our first son who's now 17. We adopted him from Kazakhstan and that was quite an experience. Then once he was home we decided to give IVF one more try. We switched to a third clinic and we became pregnant again. They threw the kitchen sink at me as the medical term is sometimes used.

and I was able to deliver the twin successfully. And through that cycle, we actually were able to freeze a number of embryos and they weren't doing any of the many tests that they are doing these days back then. And so we kept them on ice because of the sort of the traumatic experience from the loss and then having to be on bed rest and all of this. I didn't.

think that I could carry again. And so we decided to just sort of keep the embryos on ice until we could figure out what to do. And it wasn't until many years later that we decided to pursue the option of surrogacy. It wasn't an option for us to begin with because of the prohibitive costs. And so we worked with an amazing surrogate and she delivered our second set of twins.

Michelle (03:34)

Mm -hmm.

Jo (03:47)

boys, our first ones are boy -girl, and then we had a couple more embryos left and many years later we decided to give them one last chance or go through this process one more time and worked with a different surrogate who was also as equally as amazing and then we had our girl twins, so we have one of each kind.

Michelle (04:13)

Oh, wow.

Jo (04:13)

And that's how we created what I call our modern day family of seven kids through adoption, surrogacy, and IVF. Mom's story.

Michelle (04:21)

Wow, that's such a story. And that's why I wanted to go over it because what's interesting is that it has so many different ways to parenthood in one. You know, there's so many different ways to do it. And a lot of times people are afraid of choosing certain ways. But then ultimately, I always find out when talking to people that they don't regard a thing, everything happened for a reason and that connected with them to their child and however way that came about.

Jo (04:30)

Yes.

Michelle (04:49)

So I love hearing stories like that just because I mean, it's amazing, like just human life and the way your path leads you that you don't initially expect it to lead you and then you

up having blessings coming in the way that they want to come.

Jo (05:07)

Exactly. Yes, it's definitely not what we expected, but I totally believe in how things are supposed to just happen that way. It's not to say that it was not a very tough journey and a lot of lessons learned. And I do make a lot of comparisons in articles and things like that about the difference between IBF and adoption and surrogacy. There certainly is a lot of overlap.

in many levels to it, but yeah, definitely was a learning experience. And in all of those different paths to parenthood, definitely could have used fertility mindfulness in all of it.

Michelle (05:48)

Yes. Yeah. So, I'm totally with you because I think what happens is a lot of times when people are going through this or couples are going through this, they're just, they're figuring it out. They're trying to map out and like figure out how to navigate it. So I think that just by itself could be so overwhelming. And then they're looking at the diet, they're looking at the supplements, they're looking at like what kind of other treatments they can do or fertility clinics. And so all the sort of check boxes, but...

So often the one thing that is so pivotal and that is often missed is the mindset, like in how people feel and cope with it, because ultimately it's not even about, I mean, a lot of times people will look at the mindset in order to have that as an avenue to help boost fertility. However, all of that aside, it's just so important to take care of yourself at a time that.

of so much confusion and so many different thoughts, opinions, and it could be so overwhelming. And that's the time that mindfulness I know as a meditator myself, like just the impact of what it can do to your mind and how it shifted and changed me. And I know that when I speak to other people who meditate, that it can really, it just changes your life in so many ways. It consolidates you. It makes the, it's almost like the static.

die down so that you're much more sharp and you're in tune with yourself and your own inner intelligence and it connects you. So I really think that there's so much power in that. And then also, I think often people think of mindfulness as just meditation. However, I'm sure as you know, like,

is amazing, but it also teaches you to be mindful in your life actively, like in real time. So I'd love for you to.

talk about mindfulness, what it is and how you can really implement it in your life and why a person hearing this should really consider doing that.

Jo (07:53)

Yeah, no, I mean, I agree totally with everything that you were mentioning. And the way I like to describe mindfulness in just a very simple way is to bring it down to awareness. So it is awareness coupled with a gentle curiosity and compassion to oneself in the process. And so awareness can be anything from being in tune with what's happening to you.

mentally, emotionally, physically, the world around you, as well as your interactions with other people. So like you said, you know, it can trickle out into all parts of your life. And in fact, when I describe mindfulness, I call it a lifestyle, not just a one -off thing that you try to squeeze into your day via a meditation for like five minutes or something.

If you're able to tune into this awareness of yourself and the world around you, then it can really impact all the different buckets of your life and lead to things like reduced stress and better sleep, improved immunity, and better relationships with your partner, your kids, your coworkers, different things like that, because you're really tuning in.

to how you're feeling and when you're able to do that, you're able to respond to life versus being reactionary, which so many of us do. And so that, when you think about all of those benefits, it can really impact your fertility as well, your whole fertility journey as well, as well as way beyond once you...

are able to move past that and go into different facets of your life. And so one of the biggest tools that I like to bring mention to people is breathing techniques. And like you mentioned, a lot of times a misconception is that meditation is equivalent to mindfulness and that's it. But there are so many different modalities of mindfulness that can cater to many different types of needs and abilities.

and you're not just tied to meditation. I know a lot of people as they're starting out get really discouraged because they think, well, I can't sit for more than two minutes without having thoughts in my mind. And that's another whole misconception is because you're not supposed to really complete your mind, rid your mind of thoughts. It's really just the interaction of those thoughts. But going back to this idea of different modalities of mindfulness, you can do...

Michelle (10:28)

Yeah.

Jo (10:42)

different things like journaling, affirmations, you can do walking meditations, eyes open meditations, and the one that I brought up were breathing techniques. And the reason that I love, I bring this up when it comes to fertility meditations is because you can bring it with you on the go. So, you know, whenever you're at the nurse's clinic, getting your blood drawn, or if you're getting a scan, or if you're waiting for your doctor to speak about your next round, different things like that.

your breath is always with you and that's why it's a super powerful tool. And it's also powerful because it can move you from a state of stress, a state of fight or flight, into your parasympathetic nervous system, which is your rest and digest and brings you back to this baseline of calm. And all you really have to do is just start to notice your breath and...

make it more intentional by slowing it down. You can count, you can do, you can manipulate your breath in so many different ways. But if you're able to just slow it down and make it more intentional, then you're bringing yourself back into this state of calm. And it's super helpful when you're getting really worked up in any of these infertility appointments that can cause your stress, your cortisol levels to just skyrocket, right? So that's why that's my number one go to.

in general, but especially for people who are in the midst of their fertility journey because it's something you can pull out whenever you need.

Michelle (12:14)

Yeah, and I love that you mentioned that because a lot of my patients will say sometimes they'll go to the doctor's office and they really do have like a legitimate anxiety and they feel it in their body. And it brings them to a state of such anxiety that they go blank. They forget what they wanted to ask, which I always say, just write down the questions beforehand if you can, but they'll go blank on, and sometimes even if...

they're not fully on board with what the doctor says. They'll just, they, you know, they won't be able to respond with clarity. When you do get into the breath, it really helps that mental clarity, which I feel like, especially when you're on the fertility journey, you need it more than ever.

Jo (12:57)

Yes, no, absolutely. That's a great point about, um, about having clarity and asking questions because I can raise my hand to having that experience. I'll have all of these questions, all of these thoughts running through my head and then I'll meet with the doctor or the nurse and they'll say something. And then all of a sudden my mind's in a tangent and I'm not present. And I think about all of the things that maybe that I claim that I did wrong because a lot of us.

you know, blame ourselves during this journey at one point or another, or I start to project into the future thinking about like, okay, now here's my calendar, right? We're all tied to this calendar. I'm going to have to do this, this X, Y, Z. And you're just, you're not even there. And you walk out of that appointment, not having answered your questions and not having clarity about your next steps because you just weren't present. And that's the other thing about mindfulness is that when you're aware, when you're in tune with,

yourself and your surroundings, that brings you into the present moment. Because you're not thinking about how you were feeling before. You're thinking, okay, I'm tuning in right now. How's my body feeling? How am I feeling emotionally? What kind of mental space am I in? How am I interacting with this person? And that's all in the present moment. And when you take that pause to be able to just take stock of yourself and your situation,

you really can have that moment of clarity. But if you're going backwards, you're going forward, you don't have that clarity. You're just everywhere else but the present moment. And so that's another huge benefit of practicing mindfulness, is that you're able to really tune in and be present. And just a side note to this is that you can practice it in meditations, you can practice it in journaling.

And the more that you're able to practice even just tiny little moments throughout the day and over time, it's just more about consistency. The better able you're, you can pull towards that like present moment awareness during moments like this with the doctor or the nurse because you've practiced it and you've created that neural pathway in your brain to be able to, to pull into the present moment, right? Because your brain's a muscle and your, your,

just like you're exercising it. You're exercising it to be in the moment. So that's the beauty of consistency. It's more about trying to work that muscle every day, work that ability to be present and mindful and aware versus having to like work it out for an hour. If you could do it for a couple minutes a day, it's totally to your benefit in all aspects of your life.

Michelle (15:46)

And also I'll mention this is being present allows you for mental breaks from everything too, because when you're thinking about the future, you're thinking about the past, you're not being present. And when your mind is constantly on something that is worrisome to you, then again, you're not being in the present moment. When you can train yourself to be in that present moment, you actually allow yourself to come up for air and you're able to just lose yourself in the moment when you're.

having a moment of going out or doing something that you could take a break from everything mentally, that's gonna give you more energy when you come back to all of the different challenges that you're facing. And I think that that is so important. It's kind of like filling your tank. it is this level of emotional freedom that does happen.

simultaneously when you are present. And I think about a lot of what the ancients always used to refer to as liberation of the self. And liberation of the self is really just like, we are so caught up in identifications, thoughts. This is just the human condition. So this isn't something to be like, we all have this, you know, it's just part of our human condition is that we can get very caught up in our mind movies.

And our projections, our fears, most of the fears that we have actually don't really come into fruition. And we have a negative bias, which is really there to protect us from like anything dangerous. And so our mind does tend to go there. And this helps. And they've talked about it throughout history, you know, through centuries, all these ancient teachings about liberation of the self.

And liberation of the self simply means is just being able to like fully immersed, be immersed in the present moment, which is the only real moment. It's the only moment that has life force because everything else is an illusion. It's not truly happening in the now and isn't fully alive in this present moment. and I also look at awareness and I think to myself, awareness by itself, this is, uh, I think science needs to catch up to it. And I think that in some ways it,

It does. If you think about Qigong or even yoga where you were like really present with your body, there's life force that is inherent in awareness itself. So when you start to focus on areas of your body that feel stuck, you can actually open it. I felt it literally opening in my body as I brought awareness. So it almost like areas that feel stuck are kind of like devoid of consciousness.

in our body and ourselves and awareness opens that up because it just awakens you to this aliveness that can only happen in the now. That's the biggest condition about it.

Jo (18:39)

Yeah, no, absolutely. Great points.

Michelle (18:42)

definitely fascinating. So talk about like, if somebody is really not familiar with this and really new, and is also like how I used to be, I used to work in the city in New York City, and it was very much in the corporate world. And this is like before I got into meditation. And

you almost get so stuck in like the project, the demand, whatever you need to do. you know, I don't really believe in a type A personality. I know that people talk about that a lot. I think that you can wear it, but you could choose to wear whatever you want. You could choose to like, go into the frequency of type B or whatever it is that you want to be. And we get to decide it's the identifications, but.

I was at the time identified with a very type A personality. And now I would say, I wouldn't even say B, like I'm more free because of the mindfulness. So for somebody who is not familiar with how to get themselves into that parasympathetic, and they're so used to being in the frequency of do, do, do, and like, let's get things done. Let's run after it, you know, that kind of thing. What's an easy way to...

get back in tune with yourself and ease yourself into the present moment.

Jo (20:02)

Yeah, no, that is a great question. I think that is a function of society, whether you identify with a type A or not. It's just that we're driven to produce and to be busy, and that's a marker of success, especially in the United States. So to try to pivot into this other type of living, this other type of thinking and doing,

It has to just be a little bit, it won't be as intuitive, right? So you kind of just have to set yourself up and your environment for success. So it's not really a matter of habits. A lot of research has shown it's more how you set up your environment that will be a indicator of success for yourself. So what I mean by that is, let's say you decide to want to try the meditation.

So then you would figure out when in your day is really realistic. And this is kind of the process that I go through with clients. So we do like this mindfulness audit, I call it. And so you'd simply say, okay, well, I'm a morning person or I'm a night person. And I'm not going to try and get you to do something in the morning when you're really not typically productive then. It just doesn't make sense. It's rather than trying to fight what your existing systems are, we're trying to work with it.

So if you're a night person, then we would figure out, all right, well then how about we tie it to something, this act of mindfulness that you'll start to practice with something you already consistently do so that way you're stacking it onto a habit that has proven to be very successful for you that you just already do. So for example, that would be, I always bring up the example of brushing your teeth. So if you're already doing that at night,

than now just pairing it with the mindfulness activity. So you can choose journaling, doing a gratitude list or practice, doing a mindful stretch like yoga for a few minutes, you can meditate. I mean, as I mentioned, so many different modalities. You just pick one and try it out for maybe try it out for a week and see how it works for you and then try a different one. But the consistency here is that you're doing it always.

before or after you brush your teeth for X amount of minutes. And it's more about the practice of doing it. And so being aware in the moment and trying to be very gentle and compassionate to yourself about the experience. So not walking in with these expectations of you need to accomplish X, Y, Z in order for it to be a success. Because if you do that, then you kind of set yourself up for failure because you may or may not meet.

those goals and then you get down on yourself and it becomes this negative cycle. Just sort of walking in without any expectations aside from the fact that you're going to be able to, that you will set aside the time, the X minutes to do it and then it's done and that's it. So whatever happens during that, during those minutes is just left for you to really experience in the present moment.

That's a huge piece of mindfulness is just having that gentle compassion and that curiosity of like, well, what are the possibilities? Like what can actually happen? I don't know. And we'll see, right? Every day is different. We wake up different every day. I mean, every moment or hour, we have a new experience for ourselves and a new sort of frame of mind that we're operating from. So that's how I, in a nutshell, kind of work with someone or suggest in my articles and books.

how they can get started if this isn't something they've ever dabbled in before and it can feel really overwhelming to start a new habit like this, especially if it doesn't feel, if it feels like the opposite of how you normally operate in life. And then I just like to infuse little mantras for myself or just little reminders. And so for this, especially for a type A personality, I would say, I am focused on...

being versus doing. And so I don't need to accomplish like a ton of things during this moment. I just need to be here. And so I like little reminders like that, but you know, whatever works for you, especially as you're going through this, you might be aware of things that can give you success. So I would always try and infuse that as well into this new practice.

Michelle (24:40)

And I love that you said in this moment, because I think that when you give yourself permission, even if it feels very strange for you to be in a different state of mind, if you just tell yourself for this moment, I'm going to give myself permission be present just for this moment, then it doesn't feel as overwhelming. And it doesn't feel like you have to change everything in your life.

It's just for this moment to give yourself that mental break. And then your mind eases into that state. And then possibly that state of more ease can start to come into different parts of your life. But I think that is such a good point. You know, just giving yourself that permission and those affirmations or those words can make such a difference. And it sounds so simplistic. And I find that the simplistic things are the most powerful.

and the most overlooked for their power.

Jo (25:35)

Yeah, but also can be the hardest because I think we overcomplicate things and something simple doesn't feel right. It feels I'm missing something here. I'm not doing this properly. And that's where the idea of just being and walking in without so many expectations.

Michelle (25:47)

Right.

unfamiliar.

Jo (25:59)

and just being curious and compassionate with yourself is that's why those are really big pieces of the definition of mindfulness.

Michelle (26:08)

sure. And then another thing that I do actually want to talk about is the deterrence that come up in the mind while you're sitting in mindfulness. And so that's kind of the difficult aspect of being still is that you're going to become aware of what's happening in the background of your mind that you typically are not aware of because you're so distracted by the external noise. So that when that does come

lot of Buddhists,

teachers, they teach that we have these deterrents, we have these, what do they call disturbances that come up in the mind. One of those disturbances, well, one big part is our thoughts and the thoughts that come up. And those thoughts can be meditation is not for me. I personally see that to be a disturbance and it'll stop a lot of people from moving forward.

Jo (27:02)

that's true. That goes back to that myth of the fact that we're not supposed to have thoughts or disturbances, especially when we're meditating, that our mind should be clear. And that's just not the case because we have between 60 ,000, 80 ,000 thoughts a day. The way I like to kind of describe it to my clients and my books is that it's more about your interaction with your thoughts.

because then if you think about it, you'll take that process back out with you into life. So for example, you're sitting for, let's say you're sitting for two minutes in meditation, a thought pops up. Now it's up to you to figure out, well, how am I going to move on from this? How am I going to respond to this? And there are many tricks, I mean, tricks. There are many techniques.

like labeling, like, oh, that was a sensation, or oh, that was a criticism, or that was a to -do list. You label it. For some people, labeling makes them feel better, and they're able to move on. Some people are more visual. They have a thought. They need to imagine putting it in a cloud, pushing it away, or putting it on a leaf, on a body of water, pushing it away. Some people just need verbal sort of cues. And so instead of,

that visual, they can just tell themselves almost like a mantra. I acknowledge that thought. I will get back to it after this and then return back to their breath. Right? So there are many different ways you kind of need to figure out and try as well, which one works for you. But the idea here is you're having an interaction with a disturbance. And that is what happens to us every minute of our life outside of this.

Michelle (28:32)

Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

Jo (28:51)

Mindfulness practice right so you're at work You're busy doing what you need to do and a text pops up. There's that disturbance so now now that you've practiced this in your mindfulness habit of How do I deal with something that pops up like a thought or disturbance? Now you're able to practice it in quote -unquote real life because you've done it in your mindfulness practice and so now you kind of can your mind can go back to that moment of

Well, I was somewhat calm. I was getting into a calmer state and I recognized it and I said, okay, I'll get back to you later. I'm still doing something and you get back to what you're doing. You take a deep breath. You say that to yourself and you go back to whatever it is you were doing with work. And so that's how mindfulness can really benefit us when we're practicing it into applying it into outside of that moment of practice.

into the rest of our lives. And that's why I call mindfulness a lifestyle, because if you're able to practice it there, you're able to do it with all the millions of distractions that we get throughout the day. And so that's why I think it's just so beneficial to have those interactions with the thoughts and I welcome them versus getting worried about having them and telling myself that I'm not good at meditation because in the back of my mind, I'm reminding myself.

I'm practicing this for life and this will serve me outside of this moment.

Michelle (30:24)

I love the techniques that you mentioned because one thing that I noticed is they're all very neutral. So it's just kind of like, oh, that's interesting. A thought, well, I'm planning my day. You know, something that kind of comes and you're labeling it like this is planning. This is that labeling in this

is just more like, oh, that's that. And let me go back to the breath. So when you're looking at it neutrally, you're not getting sucked in emotionally. It's not.

something that really takes too much of your energy is just observing and seeing. And also when you're neutral, not too attached to that thought. So I love that.

Jo (31:03)

Yeah, that goes back to that whole facet of mindfulness, of compassion, right? But also curiosity, because you're curious as to, oh, well, why did this pop up in my mind? Okay, clearly my mind wants me to remember this, but I'll be kind to myself. This is not a huge deal. I'll just get back to you. I'll get back to you later.

Michelle (31:26)

Yeah, totally. And so you mentioned your book. So talk to us about your books and how it can help, because it sounds like you have a lot of this information in your books.

Jo (31:38)

Yeah, so I have two mindfulness books. One is for when you're already pregnant and infusing mindfulness into your pregnancy. And so it has examples of different mindfulness modalities that you can do throughout the pregnancy. So whether that's yoga, journaling, gratitude practice, meditation, all those different things that you can try. So that way it really sets you up.

for your pregnancy and your delivery, but then because you've practiced it during your pregnancy, you can take it with you into your parenthood. And that's actually the second book is a mindfulness journal for parents. I find I first wrote the parenting book and then, and then I realized, you know what? It's hard to incorporate new things when you're in the midst of trying to be a new parent or trying to pick up a new skill when you're already.

well into parenthood, it would be so much better if we can introduce this in pregnancy because then you've really worked on these different modalities and you've gotten them under your belt, gotten a taste of them and you can bring it with you hopefully once that fourth trimester sort of is past you and then you're able to use those tools you learned in pregnancy. But yeah, so I try to use those because as in many different parts of our life,

we can benefit from tuning in and being aware as we discussed.

Michelle (33:10)

I will say, in working with a lot of fertility, when people do get pregnant, I feel like that book would really be beneficial because a lot of times people have pregnancy after loss or even pregnancy after the fertility journey could be a really anxious time. So one of the things I really work with a lot of my patients on is mindfulness, especially during that time during the pregnancy, because every test, every scan,

Jo (33:26)

Yeah.

Michelle (33:36)

could bring up so much anxiety and just go into the doctor's office. So I think that especially during that time, it could really be so beneficial to learn that.

Jo (33:46)

Yeah, now that's totally a great point. I did put a page or two referring to that, the trauma that you experience from, if you're coming from a background of infertility, because you're right, every little thing can be a trigger. And now that you're pregnant, it just feels super stressful. I mean, that's how I felt after having experienced that loss and it just wasn't a pleasant.

pregnancy for me, which is why I just was honest with myself and said I can't do any more pregnancies. It just took its mental toll on me, but absolutely, you're definitely more triggered by a lot of things that other people may not even think of as something that could trigger you.

Michelle (34:26)

Yeah.

Yeah, for sure. No doubt. So for people listening to this that would like to learn more about you, listen to your podcasts or find your books, how can they reach you?

Jo (34:47)

Yeah, thank you for that. So my website is J -A -T -L -U -R -I .com and on there you'll find a link to my podcast which is called Responding to Life, Talking Health, Fertility, and Parenthood where I'm gonna have Michelle speaking on as well as links to my books, both books which actually you can purchase on Amazon or Barnes and Noble, wherever. And I also do...

retreats just for women in general. It doesn't matter if you're in the infertility process or not. My next one is November 8th through 11th in Palm Springs. And yeah, it's so great. And I did one last year in the same area. And it was really just like this magical and therapeutic moment. It's called rest and renewal because we all need it. And lastly, you can find me on Instagram.

Michelle (35:27)

That sounds amazing. I love Palm Springs.

Yes.

Jo (35:44)

at Josephine R. Atlery and I share a bunch of mindfulness tips for everyone going through infertility, pregnancy, into parenthood.

Michelle (35:55)

That's amazing. And actually quickly talk about the they include?

Jo (36:00)

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's four days, three nights, and I teach a lot of mindfulness workshops, but then I also bring in other practitioners to do a sound bath. We've done aura readings. I take people to the hot springs. I do a breathwork class, because I also teach breathwork. We do like these wish beads, intention setting. This year we're doing those vision boards. And we're...

Last year we did a cacao ceremony. So I throw in a lot of stuff. It is, I want women to feel nurtured because we're just always doing so much for other people that we never take time to just care for ourselves. So I wanted to give women this experience where someone is just caring for them in this really comprehensive way. So it's super.

Michelle (36:31)

I love that. That sounds so fun.

And talk about having a reason to be centered and present. Because I think that when you're away from your normal, definitely like seeing the normal things that it will trigger not being present or your mind will go off into, oh, I have to do this, that, and the other. When you're in environment, you're so accustomed to thinking like that, that when you're in a retreat and getting somewhere where you are in a group,

you feel bad looking at your phone. You don't want to. It's part of like, you want to be part of this group and the energy that comes together too. I really believe strongly in that. I go a lot to Joe Dispenza events because you cannot beat the energy of community. There's something in the energy of everybody coming together with that same mindset and with the hopes of growth that is powerful. I think that we work together almost like a neurologically. It's like neuro...

were like neurons that fire together like Joe Dispenza says, but it's true. You start to really uplift each other as a whole collective.

Jo (37:58)

Yeah, so I mean, I think it's that energy that you bring into it and everyone's like minded. So they're bringing that same energy with them of wanting to, um, to level up and, and experience that rest and renewal. So, uh, for your listeners, uh, if they, um, they can get $150 off with the code, uh, Lotus, they just, um, go to my website and they can see the link and all the information for the next retreat.

Michelle (38:26)

That's awesome. I'll put it in the episode notes. All right. Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Josephine. I, we've been following each other on Instagram for ages and I was like, Ooh, I like her. She has like good energy. And I, I just like followed you in general.

Jo (38:29)

Yeah, perfect.

Michelle (38:42)

and then I'm like a big, huge family too. And I knew you went through the fertility journey too.

So I was always interested in talking to you. So it's really nice to have you on the podcast finally.

been a pleasure. Thank you so much for coming on.

Jo (38:55)

Yeah, no, thanks so much for reaching out, Michelle. This is such a great conversation and such a great resource, your podcast for the community, truly. So I'm excited to have you on my own show so you can share your wisdom there as well.

Michelle (39:10)

Thank

EP 286 Divine Timing and Signs from Spirit Babies | Nancy Weiss

Nancy Weiss is a Reiki master, psychic medium, hypnosis practitioner and spiritual coach specializing in spirit babies and personal growth.  She helps women connect with the souls of their babies before pregnancy and guides them to trusting their intuition and their spiritual connection on their motherhood journey.  Her own experience of becoming a first-time mother at the age of 42 via embryo adoption and communicating with her daughter before pregnancy was the catalyst to share this sacred work with others.

Nancy shares her incredible journey of finding her babies through embryo adoption and the power of mindset and energetics in the fertility journey. She emphasizes the importance of connecting with spirit babies and fostering a playful and positive mindset. Nancy also discusses the role of divine timing and the signs that spirit babies send to communicate with their future parents.

Links:

Follow me on Instagram @nancyweissintuitive

"Cawfee with Spirit" Podcast on Youtube: https://bit.ly/3IQoec3

Book Your Spirit Baby Session: https://bit.ly/42Ah2d9

Takeaways

• The power of mindset and energetics in the fertility journey

• Connecting with spirit babies and fostering a playful and positive mindset

• Trusting in divine timing and the signs that spirit babies send

• The importance of grounding and reconnecting with the body

The Way of Fertility is here! Be sure to check it out here www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

For more information about Michelle, visitwww.michelleoravitz.com

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook:https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

—------------

Transcript: 

Michelle (00:01)

Welcome back to the podcast Nancy. I'm so happy to have you back.

Nancy (00:05)

Hey, Michelle, I am so happy to be here too. It's been a long time, and I'm happy to be back talking about my favorite subject.

Michelle (00:14)

Okay, so we had an initial episode a while back, but I want you to, if it's okay, share your story again. But your story is so freaking amazing, just like how you found your babies and how it was meant to be. And I just love it so much. So I'd love for you to share that.

Nancy (00:32)

Of course, of course. So, um, it's like trying to remember now. Okay. Um, so we're going back six years, right? Cause my children are now four and six years old. Um, my husband and I got married late later in life. I think we were 40 when we got married. I can't remember anything, my dates. So don't mind me, but we were around 40, um, when we got married and, um, wanted to start a family.

Michelle (00:36)

Ha ha.

Nancy (01:00)

And we went through multiple rounds of IVF. It was kind of, you know, I didn't really give myself a chance to get pregnant naturally, which in hindsight I would have, but I spent so many years, you know, at getting older saying, oh, I'm gonna need IVF, I'm gonna need IVF, and that's the route that I took to have my children. So we had about...

I had four egg retrievals, five transfers, using our own genetics that did not work. And I just kept my heart and my mind open the whole time of how my babies would come in because my main thing was about being all about mindset and energetics of how would I bring my, how to bring my babies in to having that faith, that hope, that trust.

And one day I found out from a nurse, a friend of mine who's a nurse, about embryo adoption, which I had never heard of. And at that point, I think I was a fertility coach for, I think over two years at that point, where I was in this business. I was a spiritual fertility coach, but had not heard of embryo adoption or embryo donation. And as soon as I heard about it, I knew that it was the right thing for us. It was like it just, everything just clicked.

And my husband loved the idea too. And if anyone out there doesn't know what that is, embryo adoption, it's when a couple has surplus embryos after having their children, you have a choice of leaving them frozen indefinitely, destroying or discarding them, or donating them to science, or donating them to other couples like me, like us. And we found out about it, we knew it was the right thing, and we went for it.

And that is how I had my first daughter, Luna. She was frozen for 13 years at that point before I had my transfer. And then I had my daughter, Ayla, my second daughter, two years after that. And she was frozen for 15 years at that point before I transferred her. So that's how we created our incredible family.

Michelle (03:13)

Well, tell us a story about you moving to Georgia randomly and how they were there. That's the crazy, crazy part.

Nancy (03:16)

Oh.

Yeah, so I think one of the things is hard, you know, when you're in your, when you're in your fertility journey and you're going through the ups and downs, you're going through the pain, you're going through so many different, you know, upsets and disappointments and highs and lows, it's hard to see the big story because you can't see everything that is being orchestrated. There is, and I always talk about, there's so much being orchestrated in the spirit realm, in the universe to make everything happen.

as it should. So my husband and I, you know, we again, we met later and we met later in life. We got married. He was in Ohio for about 12 years, which would be about the same time that those embryos were frozen, which is wild. We met in New Jersey and we stayed there for a little bit. And we then randomly decided to move to Georgia just to get further south because we were like,

The houses are less expensive there. Let's just move. We were newly married, having fun. We're like, let's just do it. And I did start my IVF treatment in New Jersey at that point, but we didn't get too far into it. We just had gone through all the testing. And so it wasn't like I needed to stay there. So we just kind of up. We surprised her entire families about moving to Georgia.

That's where I started my official like IVF journey, I'll say. And those little girls were there waiting in Georgia for 13 years at that, right? 13 years at that point, getting my numbers a little mixed up. But it's just kind of wild to see that like that's where I needed to get my babies. And I call them my little Georgia peaches. Um, but that's where I needed to be.

And if you would have said like, you know, like, why are you moving to Georgia? I couldn't see this, you know, but I know that is like this grand scheme, this beautiful thing that's being orchestrated and how that wound, how that came to be.

Michelle (05:20)

Wow.

That's incredible. It's such an incredible story. And their genetic sisters? Siblings, amazing. It's just insane. And that's, you know, when we talk about the spirit realm and it seems so abstract, but it's actually not as abstract as one would think. Because I talk about it as just an, there's an intelligence, just like the intelligence that

Nancy (05:30)

They are genetic siblings, yes. Yes, yes.

Michelle (05:53)

moves animals to do certain things when they know they're sick and they like what it is that causes us to heal our bodies, the same intelligence that works in ourselves, works us as well on a different level of guidance. And all it is, is really intelligence and connecting to that intelligence. And part of that is

not shutting down, but like maybe moving away from our analytical mind, because I just feel like also in society and just kind of like how the world is, we really rely very heavily just on the analytical aspect of our mind to the point where if nothing aligns with that and you can't see it and prove it, it's not real. But now what's interesting is that they're actually coming up with some studies that show intuition is real.

Nancy (06:41)

That's great.

Michelle (06:44)

that the people do actually see things or respond to pictures before they see the picture with the same frequency or the mind has a certain like expression when it's tested to certain emotions that would be appropriate to those pictures and they would feel that before that. So I want to talk about that first because I think people think it's like, oh, this like abstract thing, but it's, it's

really comes down to an intelligence and connecting with that intelligence. So I'd love to get your take on that.

Nancy (07:17)

I think that's the only point. Yep. So that's the only point. We are all connected. We truly are. Just as I'm able, like, in my sessions, I could work with somebody that's in another country, literally Australia or England or anywhere.

these abilities that we have. But you're like, how can I know those things? It's because we have this connection and we are all connected. Not just here in the physical body, but our energetics and then those spirit babies coming in, our past on loved ones. There is nothing there we may be separated in this physical form, but our energetics and spirit know each other and are

quiet to tap in to start to tap into those things. Also like that intuition, you know, we make so many decisions sometimes based on fear, where we're just making these decisions on fear instead of letting that natural ability come up of being like, yes, this feels right. And the more that you start to tap in to yourself and that beautiful tapestry of energy, you can then start to make decisions.

Michelle (08:31)

Mm.

Nancy (08:40)

out of love, making decisions with this whole body, yes. And I think that's how it was. You know, for me, I think I chose IVF with fear because I was like, I don't see how else anything could happen. And so for me, looking back now, I feel like I chose that with fear, but the embryo adoption was really just based on this love, this knowing inside of, oh my God, like as soon as I heard it, my whole body reacted. And I was like,

Michelle (08:42)

I love that.

Nancy (09:10)

Yes, this is a yes, and I knew it was the right thing. And women, especially on the fertility journey, have turned off that natural, because that natural kind of intuition, that natural connection, because so much is fear, so much is like waiting and scared and wanting things to work. And of course we want it to work, but we then get out of our body. We then get away from that natural.

that beautiful energy that's around us and within us to make those choices, to make those different choices. That makes sense.

Michelle (09:46)

Yeah, it totally makes sense. I mean, really trusting your body. I always, I compare it to like, are you willing to bet on yourself and your body and the intelligence that runs it? And really, are you willing to bet on your knowing, you know, that knowing that intelligence that you have within you, that voice that has always guided you and we've had those glimpses where we did listen or we...

heard it and then we didn't listen. And then we remember hearing it and not listening. And those are the ones that we remember the most, but really, truly just trusting that, allowing ourselves to come.

Nancy (10:17)

Yeah, and that, yes, and the, you know, kind of going like the body believes what you tell it. If you say I'm old, if you say I'm sick, if you say I can't do this, I can't do that, your body listens to you, you know, and if we go back to grade school, and I don't know if anybody did this, but in grade school they would have an experiment where they had two plants, and one plant you would speak to it nicely and say beautiful things.

And then the other plant, you cursed at it, you said these terrible things. Well, what do you know? The plant that was spoken nice to grew beautifully. And the plant that was spoke to negatively did not do as well or die. And our body is the same exact thing, telling ourselves, we got this, we can do this. I am fertile, I can carry a baby to term. And all of these things, even if in the beginning it's a little bit of fake it till you make it.

Michelle (11:17)

Mm-hmm.

Nancy (11:17)

Your body doesn't know the difference between you telling it 100% truth, you know what I mean? Or you're kind of faking it and you're just kind of going along with it. And that is a huge thing on this, you know, in anything that you do. I don't know if the listeners know, but also I, in the last few years, I had stage three breast cancer. And I treated that cancer just like I did my fertility journey.

I'm not going to say that I wasn't scared and that it was hard, but I went through chemotherapy, radiation, a double mastectomy. I did all this. I realized today, you know, before coming on the podcast, I said, my goodness, in the last five years, right, six years, I had two babies and went through stage three breast cancer. Now, what did I do when I was going through my cancer journey was the mindset. It was huge to talk to my body and not say anything was wrong with it.

not to be fighting against it, but that I was just going through this little upset within my body. And everything that I did became a healing. I would twist it into a healing. And the medicine, the chemotherapy I got was how can I make this positive? You know, I would see it as medicine or light coming in from the angels. And so I just, on my fertility journey and all through that, about that, with that, is always about the mindset.

And how can I continue to feed my brain and my body the positive messages to help me form that faith to get me to the next step.

Michelle (12:51)

Honestly, you are such an inspiration because you walk the talk. Like, it's not something that you just talk about. It's something that you actually experience and you experience something that is so devastating. It's a really, I mean, like there's no words.

And so something like that and to actually, in the face of that, still...

stay with love towards your body is incredible. And this is just one of the few reasons I love you so much. And it's such an incredible, and it was actually interesting because I was going to ask you to talk about that. And it really is just a testament to the power of our belief in our intention and the way we speak to our bodies and how our bodies do in fact respond to our vibration.

Nancy (13:46)

Yeah, it's so powerful. And I don't think everybody always realizes how powerful those words are, how powerful that mindset is, the intention. Like I said, you can go into anything with a positive mindset or a negative mindset. Now, it doesn't mean that it's always going to work out in your favor, right? Like, I have a client that had a failed transfer recently, and that's hard.

but it's all the little things that she's doing that are going to lead to that success, that lead to the long-term mindset and success. So you're gonna have your ups and downs. Don't think I wasn't on the floor crying at some points in the last six years on my journey, whatever I was going through, but it was the consistency and all the things that I did for myself of the next day, back to meditating, back to doing inner child work.

Michelle (14:26)

Yeah.

Yeah, imagine.

Nancy (14:42)

back to doing energy healing, whatever I could do for myself and using all those tools for yourself and then trusting my body, trusting myself that I was making the right decisions and doing the right thing. So and I think it takes time. I don't, you know, I don't expect everyone to just be like, okay, yeah, just all of a sudden it's going to happen. It's going to I'm going to be like this tomorrow. This is incremental changes. This is incremental work that you do for yourself, your self care.

and all the things that you do on your journey.

Michelle (15:14)

It's really mothering yourself. It's becoming a mother to yourself and loving and nurturing yourself. So, you know, that's not an easy thing in general. Like, you know, the fertility journey, the motherhood journey, the whole journey, it's not an easy thing. Like, as you know, I mean, it comes with its own challenges, it all does. So mothering yourself, it's the same thing. It's kind of sticking by your side, by your own side, no matter what. And staying...

Nancy (15:17)

Oh yeah.

Michelle (15:43)

strong, supportive to yourself and that self-care and having those breakdowns and accepting yourself and giving yourself those that grace. And I love that you mentioned that because that's part of the journey. It's part of it. We're not perfect. Nobody's perfect. And that's the point. It's like just honoring and accepting yourself where you're at, but from a place of love.

Nancy (16:02)

Yeah, yeah. And sometimes one of my coaches told me, she's like, you need to sit in the river of misery sometimes. You need to let that flow through you. A lot of us who are maybe type A or those really strong professional, not gonna say professional, but these women that are like me, I'm like Capricorn. I just think about the goals. I think about the next step. And sometimes I won't always, in the past I have not always...

recognize that I have to go through sadness, that I have to go through pain in order to really heal through it, you know, instead of just going on to the next thing and like powering through. You need to kind of really experience the emotions in your body and I think this is a big thing when it comes to fertility or any type of things that can cause trauma is that we leave our body because we don't want to feel what we're going through.

we can gloss over the emotions because it is so painful. But in that, it gets trapped within us, you know, and that gets us further and further away from our intuition and our gut and knowing what is right for us, what is wrong for us. And so it's a big healing journey. I think those of us, you know, I say that around the fertility journey, we're on a very specific journey for a reason. And it's all about really this self acknowledgement, this self growth, this transformation.

of how we go through all these ups and downs. And it's no joke, it's not for the weak, right? But let me tell you, you become the strongest woman. You become so strong going through all these things, right? And really knowing yourself and knowing your body and your baby, I think it's just like, it's just such a big, it's almost inexplicable, but this giant web of all these things that come together and connect, you know?

But I think it's really important to get back into the body so that you can process emotion, so that you can get in touch with yourself and your energy to then connect with your baby and connect with your mindset to bring them in.

Michelle (18:15)

I love that. And so how does one, if people are really disconnected with their bodies or it's really difficult for them to kind of like face or experience the emotion, how would you recommend for people to do that in a way that's like

practical?

Nancy (18:33)

So I think one major thing would be to ground yourself. And if you've ever heard of grounding before, this is connecting with the earth. This is, you can imagine yourself for me, I love picturing myself as a tree. It's something I do every day and actually feel those roots going down into the ground, into mother earth, being held, being feeling safe, feeling secure. I think that it sounds so simple.

It sounds so maybe magical to people like how is me picturing myself like a tree going to help? But remember this is all about energetics. This is about intention. And when you do that you're telling the body what to do. So getting back into your body, feeling grounded, breathing, literally breathing and taking deep breaths, putting your hands on your heart and breathing and feeling your heart, your chest rise and fall. Grounding yourself.

starts to get you back into your body so that you can start to hear and listen to the signs, the sounds, the messages that come from within, whether it's physical, emotional, energetic. But breathing and grounding is one easy way to just start to reconnect with your body and yourself.

Michelle (19:52)

Oh my god, I love that. It's interesting to me because the simplest things are the most powerful, typically.

Nancy (20:01)

Yeah, and you again, you're just like, how could that be? How could that be the thing? You know what I mean? How could it be as simple as breathing? But once you start doing that, once you start developing a practice, like maybe five minutes a day, you know, you sit down, I think this is important too for women is to develop a self-care practice. And self-care is not pedicures and manicures, even though those are amazing, but self-care is really sitting down and looking at yourself saying,

What do I need to heal? What is it that I need to heal? You know, is it forgiving someone? Is it forgiving myself? Is it for processing some trauma? Is it for loving my inner child? You know, maybe I need to go out and hula hoop today and reconnect with that little girl inside of me. Maybe I need to just sit down and meditate. Maybe I need to write a letter to someone that piss me off and I need to let them go.

Maybe I need to set better boundaries for myself and not let people walk all over me. There are so many things that you can do to really foster that self care and that connection with yourself. Me, that's every morning. I sit down in front of my altar. I'm pulling behind me in front of my altar in my space. I listen to some beautiful music. I choose something on YouTube and I close my eyes and I sit there and I breathe. I ground.

I connect with my angels and guides. I do my gratitude every day. Something as simple as that, five, 10 minutes, can completely change your life. I've seen it change mine. It transformed my fertility journey. It transformed my cancer journey 100% because I was able to put myself first and make myself the priority.

Michelle (21:54)

I love that. And it's true. It's really choosing yourself, choosing yourself throughout the day, giving yourself that presence, like being present with yourself. When you're doing that, you're able to access a higher intelligence. And that is where you get those downloads and really connect with your intuition. So speaking of that, let's talk spirit babies, one of my favorite topics ever. And it's really wild because I always tell my patients, listen and talk.

Nancy (22:17)

Yeah.

Michelle (22:23)

Talk to your spirit babies, but also ask for signs and it's insane. I can write a book just on that. The stories they tell me, they are blown away by some of the signs they see. And all it takes is just asking. So talk to us about spirit babies, how they come in, how that can influence people's initial feeling or being called to parenting in the first place.

Nancy (22:47)

Yeah, so spirit babies are the souls, the spirit of children that are ready to come in at Earthside, to come into a human body. Just like we have loved ones in spirit that have passed away, babies are out there too. They're going through their reincarnations, they're going through other lives, and they are ready and choosing a parent to come through. And one of the things to do is to

calling on a spirit baby if you've never done this before, is to say like, hey, my body is ready, spirit baby, I'm ready for you and start to call in that child. And when they see you, you're like a little light and they're like a little moth to a flame and they're like, oh my goodness, yes, her, I love her. And I love who she is with. And I want that to be the way I come in, through that mom or however it is. This could be adoption too.

So I don't always say like spirit, but we're talking about spirit babies, we're talking about babies that are coming in freshly into that new body, that human form. This greatly changes a fertility journey because you are starting to connect on that deeper level with the child that is meant to be yours. And it sounds maybe crazy to some people, but connecting with that baby,

fosters this trust, this hope, this faith that they're coming. You know that they're coming and the more that you work on that, the more positive you feel, the more connected you feel knowing like yes I know this baby is coming. And so this is one of the great ways to really help on the fertility journey is connecting with those spirit babies. And I forgot what else you asked me so let me know.

Michelle (24:43)

I think I forgot too, because my memory these days, I don't even know, but who cares? It just will keep moving forward. But I think that it's just so interesting that you're saying this. I mean, the way I see it is that it's actually, a lot of times there's that initial thought, okay, I'm going to get pregnant or we are going to get pregnant. But then there's like this other element to this, which is this other being that's...

Nancy (24:46)

Yeah, I feel it. Yeah, yes.

Michelle (25:09)

part of this process and acknowledging that being, I think that the power of acknowledging that being is incredibly potent.

Nancy (25:18)

Yeah, we are making just like we chose to come into this lifetime through our parents, choosing all the things that we have, our financial situation, our sibling situation, what color are we, what nationality, what religion, we choose all these things. And so these babies that are coming in are doing the exact same thing. They're looking for the lessons, they're looking for who they need to be with. Do they need somebody that's extra?

loving or fun or wacky or silly or serious or whatever that is to come into this earth so that they can then be on their own path in having their lives. And it's just like a grandmother can send you a cardinal or a butterfly and say, oh my God, Aunt Rose or Grandma Rose, she used to always send me butterflies. I know it's her or a cardinal. Spirit babies can do the same thing.

and you can ask them to send you specific signs. And the more you connect, you can start to hear, feel, see, know exactly who they are. They're all gonna be a little bit different. Our communication is gonna be different, just like it was different for my first child versus my second. But to have them send me their name, for them to send me these things that just pop up, you start to just get that.

beautiful connection knowing they are real. Just like women know like oh I just knew it was a boy, oh I just knew it was a girl. That's that mother's intuition and it can get deeper even deeper than that like with spirit baby work. It's incredible.

Michelle (26:46)

Mm-hmm.

That's so cool. Do you have any interesting stories on what you've seen, just stories from your clients on connecting or asking for signs?

Nancy (27:04)

Yeah. Yeah, well, even one of my own, one of my favorite is the cake plate for the baby shower. And now she was, I was pregnant with her at this time, but I started connecting with Luna six months even before I knew how I would get pregnant. This was, we had, you know, I was kind of in limbo at that point. I didn't know if I was gonna try our genetics again with another egg retrieval and go through that again. I don't even think I knew about embryo adoption yet.

Um, but here I am, you know, we would talk. I knew her middle name was Grace. She literally yelled it to me one time in a meditation session. So every day I would sit there. I would connect with her. I would use crystals. And she was like, my middle name is Grace. And I'm like, are you for real? Okay. Are you sure? Like, I was like, I don't know if this really goes well, Luna Grace Weiss, but all right, girl, this is going to be your middle name. And so, um, I was

doing my shopping for my baby shower, and I wasn't a pink girl, I was a gray and purple. I wanted all her stuff to be gray and purple, and I'm looking at home goods, and I'm looking for this cake, a cake plate, a display for the cake. So I'm going through the aisles, I go through all the aisles of the cakes, cake plates, there's nothing there. There's, you know, pink ones or red ones, whatever. So I kind of give up at this point.

And I'm like, all right, I guess I'm not finding this cake plate today. I'm going through the store. I'm like looking in the lamps or something really weird, like lamps or something completely non-related to baking. And all of a sudden I see a cream colored plate and it's got this ceramic plate and it's got this gray ribbon tied through it with polka dots, which I'm like, why does this cake plate have this gray ribbon? I'm like, that's exactly what I want.

you know, for the purple cake, and then I lift it up and a sticker in the middle of the cake plate says grace on it. And I'm like, what? I like flipped out in the store. I was like, are you kidding me? She literally sent that to me. We have a cake plate with the gray ribbon and then the name, the middle name in the middle of it. And what are the odds of this, right? So you're just like, you just have to like.

Michelle (29:09)

Oh my god.

Wow.

Oh, yeah.

Nancy (29:30)

except these things too. People will be like, oh how do I know it's not imagination or coincidence? It's not. These things, there are no coincidences. Everything is synchronistic and is happening for a reason. You can't tell me that baby didn't send me that plate, right? Or my other client, right, my other client, she had her child send pine cones and pine cones, I mean,

Michelle (29:45)

Yeah, yeah, I totally agree. The signs are too obvious.

Nancy (29:58)

know they're in certain places right? You could she asked for pine cones and um they would pop up in interesting places like she would find one she'd be like oh my goodness but like here she shows up to a beach wedding and a beach wedding you would think like she's seashells uh something like that and the individual ornaments things on the table were pine cones and she was like I know

Michelle (29:59)

So she asked, she asked for that specific sign. Yeah.

Right. Yep.

Nancy (30:27)

There's just like, once you start developing this relationship with them and yourself and with spirit, it's just a beautiful thing because the impossible becomes possible.

Michelle (30:43)

I love that. I love that. That's so cool. Because it's magic. It's really connecting with a state of miracles. Because I think that ultimately, and I haven't fully, fully read this, but the book of miracles, it was at the book of miracles. Is that what it's called? The book of, I think it's the book of miracles. It's the one that Marianne Williamson wrote about. You know what I'm

Nancy (31:00)

I'm not sure.

Okay, yes, A Course in Miracles, A Course in Miracles.

Michelle (31:11)

A course in miracles, right. Okay. So a course in miracles, they say that basically miracles happen all the time that we, that is really our birthright. But we're the ones who sort of hold ourselves from that. I think part of it is not acknowledging the realness of it. When we don't acknowledge that it exists, it hides. And then when we acknowledge and make that relationship, make that connection, it shows up a lot more. And so.

Nancy (31:36)

Yeah.

Michelle (31:39)

What are some of the reasons that you've seen that spirit babies are hesitant on coming through, like being born?

Nancy (31:48)

I think one of the big things that is a big message that I've seen over the last, I think it's eight years now that I'm doing this. I'm so bad with my ears. They want to know that mom wants to play. And that sounds very simple. You'd be like, of course babies wanna play, kids wanna play, but they see so much seriousness. They see so much of this stress.

that they just want to know like, I really want mom to be playful and fun. And it doesn't come through all the time, but I've seen it come through where that's like a concern of theirs. And when we are going through so much stress, right, we're going through all this stuff, we can kind of tend to just shut down and we need to reconnect with the playfulness inside of us. We need to reconnect with our inner child. And so I'll tell my clients, go out hula hoop.

Go out and blow bubbles. Go to the park and run around. Lay down in the grass and just do some grass angels. Go in the snow. Do something that's really fun and lively that you would have done like a kid to really get that, to show them like, yes, I can have fun. Yes, I'm ready to welcome you. I think that's a huge one. And I think it has to do a lot with us, the women.

in showing that we can be that way. You know, that it's not just, yeah, the kid just want like kids love to play. They want that connection.

playing is a huge part. I'm trying to think of what else.

I think babies really have their own, they have their own agenda. This is not our time. This is not when we choose to get pregnant. This is for them saying, yes, I'm ready, the time is now. And so trusting in that divine timing, while it is so hard on your fertility journey, especially if you're getting older and you're like, oh my God, I'm 40, I'm this, I'm that, I need this to happen right now.

It's really on their timeline and we need to remember that. We need to remember divine timing and these universal, these beautiful miracles that occur exactly when they need to. Sometimes a child needs to wait for, let's say, another sibling to be born or they need to wait for a specific time or a specific season when mom moves from the city to the country. Different things like that really do affect our children.

Or who is the dad? Or where is this other, you know, the other part coming from? There are so many things that babies kind of look at and say like, okay, this is not the right time. I need to wait until this time, or I need to wait until this other sibling comes through, or mom does this or

Michelle (34:53)

so if somebody wants to connect with a spare baby, and this is really foreign to the person or somebody's listening, and what is one of the first ways they can ease into this or have that connection, what are some tips that you could provide?

Nancy (35:11)

I think one of the things is.

not letting the imagination get in the way thinking I'm dreaming this or this is not real but sitting there say five minutes a day closing your eyes putting your hands on your heart and picturing this child picturing a baby picturing what they might look like you know kind of giving them maybe a face giving them what they look like maybe you see you're holding them in your arms this is all part manifesting too

This is making these dreams become a reality. So starting to connect with them, or if that's a little bit too much for somebody, to maybe write a letter to the baby and tell them about you, say, I'm so excited, I cannot wait for you to come Earth side. I have the perfect room picked out for you. I would love to tell you your name. And just starting this conversation, just as if you would pray to God, if that's what you believe in, or praying to a loved one.

or talking to someone in spirit, just kind of starting that conversation. And the more you do that, it's like a muscle. And then they start to connect back with you. It may not happen that first day. It may not happen the first month, but as you continue to develop this relationship, it really starts to flourish.

Michelle (36:36)

Amazing. And it's true. It's actually, I feel like more intuitive than people think, that you almost have a remembrance to it. And I feel like our cells remember what we're capable of doing, like our potential when it awakens, it's really something that is dormant. And when you bring that into your world or your perception, that it awakens more so than it's a new foreign thing.

Nancy (37:04)

Yes, yes. I mean, it's going to be different for everybody, you know, depending on your level of intuitiveness. Some women are very intuitive, some people are just learning about it. So there are going to be like these building blocks and these kind of steps that need to be taken in order to start to really foster that relationship. And again, every relationship with a spirit baby is going to be different.

Some are you're just going to feel them. So maybe when you're in meditation and you say, baby, I want to meet you. I would love to meet you. Please let me know that you're here. And then all of a sudden you feel the hair on the back of your neck stand up, or maybe you get goosebumps on your arms. You can look at that as that sign of, yes, they are here. I'm getting that response. And so trusting, again, this is about getting into the body, back into our bodies, so that we can trust the emotions, the visions.

the knowing and all those things that come up and we can trust those things.

Michelle (38:01)

I love that. And of course I can talk to you for hours, but if somebody is really intrigued by what you're talking about and really wants to reach out, which I know is going to be a lot of somebody's, how can people reach you?

Nancy (38:05)

I'm going to go to bed.

Hehehe

So Instagram is the best place to find me. I'm at Nancy Weiss Intuitive, and I know Michelle's gonna put that information down here. So we have that. So there's lots of stuff on my Instagram that you can watch. And then I have something called the Coffee with Spirit podcast, in case you don't know, I'm from New York. So I have a little podcast called Coffee with, yes, gotta have coffee. Coffee with Spirit on YouTube is a podcast.

Michelle (38:34)

Gotta have the coffee.

Nancy (38:41)

where I talk about spirit babies, spirit stuff in general, so you can learn there how to connect with your spirit baby. And then I offer sessions as well, where I do spirit baby mediumship sessions and energy healing to help you connect with them, where I can connect you with your spirit baby and also teach you how to do it as well.

Michelle (39:00)

Nancy, I adore you. Like seriously, I adore you. We go way back, like way back. We go way back. New York, we're both from New York and we have the New York connection. And I just think that you're incredibly so unique in your approach to life and you have such a light about you and incredible positivity. And I think part of it is just this belief that you have this real faith.

Nancy (39:02)

No.

Hahaha!

Michelle (39:29)

in miracles and like the ability to do anything in life. And I think that you just teach so much just by your presence and how you live as a human. So of course, I love having conversations with you and I'm so happy you came back to Spirit Babies and talking about it and the podcast and thank you so much.

Nancy (39:41)

Thank you.

Stay tuned.

Thank you.

EP 285 The Power of Whole Foods for Fertility | Judy Simon & Angela Thyer

Dr. Angela Thyer and Judy Simon discuss their book 'Getting to Baby' and the importance of nutrition and lifestyle in fertility. They share their backgrounds and how they came together to help women improve their nutrition and health for better fertility outcomes. The book covers the connection between food and fertility, the importance of whole foods, debunking misconceptions about diet and fertility, and the benefits of intuitive eating and cooking. They emphasize the need for diversity in food choices and the impact of processed foods on fertility. The book also includes practical tips and recipes to support a healthy pregnancy journey. The conversation covers topics such as the importance of breakfast and meal timing, the impact of nutrition on fertility, the role of integrative medicine in fertility treatment, and the power of lifestyle choices in influencing fertility outcomes. The guests emphasize the importance of combining foods and the role of vegetables in supporting digestion and overall health. They also discuss the impact of stress, sleep, and epigenetics on fertility. The conversation highlights the need for a multidisciplinary approach to fertility treatment and the importance of finding a supportive healthcare team.

Takeaways

• Nutrition and lifestyle play a crucial role in fertility and improving fertility outcomes.

• Eating whole foods, including a variety of fruits, vegetables, plant-based proteins, and whole grains, is important for fertility.

• There are many misconceptions about diet and fertility, such as the need to cut out carbs or follow specific diets. It's important to focus on nourishing the body with whole foods.

• Intuitive eating and cooking skills are valuable in creating a healthy and sustainable approach to nutrition.

• Diversity in food choices is essential for optimal fertility and overall health.

• Processed foods can negatively impact fertility, and it's important to prioritize whole foods.

• The book provides practical tips, recipes, and a six-week blueprint to support a healthy pregnancy journey. Breakfast is an important meal for fertility and overall health. It is best to have a substantial breakfast with protein, fiber, and vegetables.

• Meal timing is crucial, and it is recommended to have more calories earlier in the day and fewer at night.

• Combining foods, especially vegetables, can support digestion and nutrient absorption.

• Stress, sleep, and lifestyle choices have a significant impact on fertility outcomes.

• Epigenetics plays a role in fertility, and lifestyle choices can influence gene expression.

• A multidisciplinary approach to fertility treatment, including integrative medicine, can provide comprehensive support.

• Finding a supportive healthcare team is essential for navigating the fertility journey.

Guest Bio: Judy Simon

Judy Simon, MS, RDN, CD, CHES is an award winning registered dietitian nutritionist who specializes in reproductive health. She is the founder of Mind Body Nutrition, PLLC and a clinical instructor at the University of Washington. Judy’s expertise includes fertility, PCOS, eating disorders, weight inclusive medicine and reproductive health. 

Judy has held leadership roles in the American Society of Reproductive Medicine Nutrition Special Interest Group and is a Fellow of the Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics. 

Judy integrates mindfulness, intuitive eating, eating competence, while taking a non-judgmental, inclusive down approach to help people have healthier, more fertile lives. 

Judy is the co-founder of Food For Fertility program and co-author of the upcoming (April, 2024) book Getting to Baby A Food-first Fertility Plan to Improve Your Odds and Shorten Your Time to Pregnancy, Ben Bella Publisher

Guest Bio: Angela Thyer

Angela Thyer, MD is board certified in Reproductive Endocrinology and Infertility, Ob/Gyn and Lifestyle Medicine. She is a founding partner of Seattle Reproductive Medicine. Dr. Thyer completed her undergraduate education at Duke University, medical school at the University of Cincinnati College of Medicine, residency at Oregon Health and Science University, and fellowship at the University of Texas Health Science Center at San Antonio. She completed The Culinary Coaching program through the Institute of Lifestyle Medicine in 2020 and became a certified plant-based chef through Rouxbe in 2022. She and Judy Simon, MS, RDN created the Food for Fertility program and have co-authored a book coming out in 2024, Getting to Baby: A Food-First Fertility Plan to Improve Your Odds and Shorten Your Time to Pregnancy which highlights the best foods to optimize fertility.

Website & Social media links (Facebook, instagram, twitter)

Instagram: @angelathyermd

Website: angelathyermd.com

For more information about Michelle, visitwww.michelleoravitz.com

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook:https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

Transcript:

Michelle: So Angela and Judy, welcome.

Angela: Thank you so much. We're excited to be here, Michelle.

Michelle: So I'd love for you guys to give a background first. , I'm very excited to be talking about your new book, Getting to Baby. I would love for you first to share your background so people can know more about you and what got you to doing this type of work.

Angela: Okay. Sure. I'm a reproductive endocrinologist and infertility specialist. So first I trained in OBGYN and then specialized in reproductive endocrine and infertility. And then I got board certified in lifestyle medicine. So, which is a more holistic kind of way to look at all healthcare, more of a preventive lens of like, how can we look at lifestyle measures to, you know, really help people in all phases of their life.

Angela: And I've always been interested in food, nutrition, exercise. And so over the years, it just became a bigger and[00:01:00] bigger part of my practice. And I've always been interested in obviously hormones, but metabolism and Judy and I started working together at the university of Washington. And we found we had this common interest in really helping women, you know, work together to improve their nutrition and health, which subsequently leads to improvement in their fertility.

Michelle: Oh, totally.

Judy: And I'm a registered dietitian, as Angela mentioned, and my master's is in community health education. And I sort of went through traditional training, and when I came back and re entered, you know, medicine, gosh, about 20 ish years ago, all of a sudden, PCOS and all these things that I had never really learned about just came front and forward.

Judy: And so I was fortunate to connect up with Angela and really do the deep dive into, Hey, what do we know about insulin resistance? How is this affecting fertility? And these were things that traditionally I hadn't been taught. [00:02:00]So really, I think we kind of joined each other's worlds. You know, I joined American Society of Reproductive Medicine and, you know, joined all the fertility docs.

Judy: And You know, Angela would come to the nutrition conferences. So we did a lot of cross pollination and from that we went off and both started into private practices and she'd refer these amazing patients and we decided, wow, we're seeing them one at a time. Wouldn't it just be the coolest thing if we could start classes?

Judy: So about 12 ish years ago, we started the food for fertility classes where we brought women in who were trying to conceive. Many of them had PCOS, endometriosis. unexplained, lots of different diagnosis. And that's who we brought the food and the people and the lifestyle into the classroom, which is really why we wrote the book.

Judy: It's kind of, we took all our years of experience, science and knowledge and said, let's make it accessible to more people.

Michelle: That's awesome. And so [00:03:00] talk about the book. What's in the book? And obviously it's for people trying to conceive, getting to baby. What were the top things? 

Angela: Yeah. Well, we, we started off by, you know, kind of, we always want people to understand the whys, you know, why this, why that what's the connection, what's the underlying biology and physiology? And then what evidence do we know? A lot of nutritional studies about fertility or observational studies, like they'll a population will be observed and they'll say, okay, people who ate these kinds of diets or these kinds of foods had higher fertility and more successful outcomes than people who ate this kind of diet.

Angela: So, you know, we, we want to, wanted to present all that information. So people kind of have background and good knowledge and can kind of say, oh, okay, well. Maybe that would be a good idea for me. You know, it's not, it's, it's a broad spectrum of what, you know, a good diet could look like. It's not just one thing.

Angela: Obviously [00:04:00] mainly plant forward. Cause I think we all need to eat more fruits and vegetables and plant based foods. But there is room, you know, for some animal foods too, especially things like fish and whole fat dairy, which have shown to increase some fertility benefits. So, you know, we kind of go through all the food groups and talk about what's, what we, where we have evidence, what's good, what's not so good and what vitamins and minerals and nutrients they're adding.

Angela: And then, you know, some of the biggest things that we're like, if you want to incorporate this, it's a really, it's a how to. Right. So we wanted to make it like accessible in this sense that anybody at home could be like, Oh, okay. I, gosh, I just want to add one little thing this week. What would I add? What can, what's my takeaway?

Angela: What's my smart goal? So people can kind of set their own goals and try to move forward with that, making a little progress at a time. And then the greatest thing I think is sharing stories from our patients who are just fabulous[00:05:00] women who've been on their own journey. And we had so many stories, we couldn't even share them all in the book.

Angela: But kind of telling these journeys that sometimes took months, sometimes took years and how they were able to incorporate changes and see changes in themselves. and feel increased energy and then kind of have improved fertility. Maybe if they had a partner, you know, their partner's health was also improving at the same time.

Angela: And so many of them were successful either With natural conception, or if they were infertility treatments, having better success in those treatments and making better quality embryos that we were like, wow, you know, that's really what's in the book. So as much as we could share and keep it accessible and reasonable in length.

Angela: That's, that's what the book's about.

Michelle: I found it very user friendly and I really enjoyed the image of the plate and how half of it was greens, which is great because I do believe that it's so important to get the greens. And there's so many nutrients that you can get[00:06:00] from that. And you talked about some misconceptions too, like on treating PCOS and like common misconceptions on what to eat for fertility.

Michelle: So I'd love to touch upon that.

Judy: Yeah, well, one of the things that we tried to bring out in the book is when we first started doing our classes, a lot of the reasons women would be referred to us as we'll just go lose weight. So nothing, you know, focusing on their health and we're like, Oh no, no, no, this is not a weight loss class.

Judy: This is totally about how to nourish yourself. And actually. Take away the shame and guilt in, you know, whatever size body you have being able to get the benefits of the nutrition and the lifestyle. Right? So, for example there's a lot of people that would come in with a whole list of foods that they thought they shouldn't eat because somebody told them that.

Judy: And we're like, well, are you allergic to them? No. Well, okay, you know, here's a safe And that's what we tried to do in the [00:07:00] book. Like showing in all these different, you know, sure, maybe you can't tolerate dairy. Here's a sub, here's something else you can, you can place out so that everybody would feel included, that anybody could be in the classes, read the book and really get the benefit out of it.

Judy: So when, when you talk about myths, probably the biggest one is, you know so many women are told cut out carbs. Cut out carbs and we're like, Oh no. Well, what's in whole grains and ancient grains. We know those inositols we hear about in PCOS. Guess where they come from? White beans, buckwheat. So we're saying where can you get these ancient grains are just so filled with minerals and also really showing that looking at the quality of carbs that you're choosing most of the time is actually going to be beneficial.

Judy: And this is kind of relief for women to hear like, I don't have to starve myself. I get to eat and try new things.

Michelle: Yeah. That's such a good point. And also, cause a [00:08:00] lot of times when people have carbs, it's simple carbs or juices where you're taking basically, even if it's fresh juices, like we're really meant to have the whole fruit, right? The fiber like, and digest it slowly so that it's not a sugar spike. I'd love for you to talk about that too, the importance of, of actually having the whole food.

Angela: Yeah, we definitely talk about kind of it being a whole food diet because that is so important and The issue with I mean, yes, you can get some of the nutrients if you juice But you're also gonna get mainly sugar without the fiber if you've removed the fiber. So the fiber is so important both to slow down your digestion and really pay attention to gut health.

Angela: And I know you focus a lot on gut health. You know, that's where so much of our health overall starts. And there's so many connections between the gut and the mind and the body and the hormones and everything else, every, every system. And so, having that [00:09:00] fiber in your diet, really from whole foods. I mean, especially plant based foods, right?

Angela: Because animal foods don't have fiber, but the plant based foods really then is is great food for the microbiomes, the microbiome, our microbiome and the bacteria, the 3 trillion bacteria that live in our gut. And it helps create, you know, it's more anti inflammatory because so many people kind of can get.

Angela: almost a chronic inflammation from not eating enough fiber, not feeding their microbiome. And then that can lead to more issues in more body systems that they may not even be aware of. But nobody is, you know, advertising whole foods, like whole foods. So much of what people see and kind of the noise that feeds in is just, you know, everything else that's marketed in a box or a bag or somebody.

Angela: And so that's what, and so sometimes those help people put health claims on other products that [00:10:00] aren't whole foods and then whole foods kind of get neglected. And so, yeah, we definitely want to say, you know, it's important. And we talk about eating the rainbow and the colors because each colors, providing different phytonutrients.

Angela: And so, you know, you want that broad range because the more diversity you have in your fruits and vegetables, the more diverse a microbiome you're going to develop, the better protection for your immune system and just make everything else work better in your whole body.

Michelle: I love that you talk about diversity because actually a lot of people end up developing sensitivities even if it's healthy food that they eat all the time and it's important to have diversity because it really allows the body to get so many different benefits and also not get too intolerant of one specific thing.

Michelle: The body likes diversity.

Judy: Absolutely. And we really wanted people to feel inclusive with the book. So that's why there's so much [00:11:00]culinary medicine, like just basic skills. Here's how you can throw something together without even a recipe, you know, just really, you know, five steps to a great salad. What should it have, you know, different things like that.

Judy: And we also wanted it to really highlight the, All the global cuisines. And so for example I see a large population of South Asian women, right? And so there's, there, there always were like their diets too high in carbs. And we talked about what are all the wonderful things that herbs that you're using, the dolls, you know, the pulses, but we tried to make sure we had things from all regions because unfortunately a lot of people here in the medical world, like, Oh, just eat the Mediterranean diet.

Judy: We're like, Oh no, no, no way. That that's so exclusive. It's not inclusive. We want to talk about, you know, foods from, you know, West Africa or Central America, a lot of the indigenous healthy foods, and then also what's seasonally available. And so one of the things that we really tried to [00:12:00]share is a lot of different types of foods.

Judy: Simple preparation, but let people start where they're comfortable. So if you're a chef that only has three or four recipes and you're still sort of using some are processed foods, maybe they'll start with adding a soup or adding some vegetable dishes or adding a salad and letting them know you're going to get benefits from those first steps.

Judy: Because some people feel like, like I just talked to someone, she goes, I'm trying to be all in, you know, trying to be perfect. Do you know what I mean?

Michelle: Yeah,

Judy: And that's stressful. It's stressful to feel like you're getting a grade on your diet. And we want people to feel like it's fun. They're having a date night with their partner and maybe they're trying a new recipe in the book.

Judy: Or they got inspired because there is a lot of pressure when people are trying to conceive. And the book is also for those people who are like, Hey, we want to get pregnant in the next year. What's the path to a healthy pregnancy? We have no idea how long it's going to take, but [00:13:00] what's going to prepare us?

Judy: And you know, Michelle, that like 50 percent of pregnancies are unplanned. So a lot of people, you know, maybe they're exposed to a lot of those fertility disruptors, and if they would have known even a few months in advance, they could have decreased some of the risks, you know that could impact their fertility and pregnancy.

Michelle: definitely. I remember seeing something, it was about a burger or like a chicken sandwich or something. It was a sandwich with a bun that the woman just kept in her closet and just saw what happened and it was not, it was not good. Breaking down and I'm like, whoa That is crazy. Like things are supposed to break down if they don't break down and they don't yeah Just break down like what happens in your body So talk about the importance of eating whole foods.

Michelle: Listen, we're going to have processed food once in a while. It's not like, you know, end all be all like, it's not one thing or another, obviously, [00:14:00] but talk about the importance of really being intentional about choosing more whole foods in your diet. 

Angela: Well, you know, I do think, I think that everybody's so different in what they eat, but I think that, yeah, the ultra processed foods and processed grains, so like breads, cereals, pastas, Anything it's just so it it's everywhere, right? It's it's you can't get away from it and it's become normalized And it and so it has become acceptable and ordinary And the problem with those foods is yeah, you don't need to say i'm not never going to eat that again But it replaces it, you know, it takes the place of whole foods.

Angela: And so I think you know Where do you get whole foods? Well, it's hard to get whole foods You You know if you're eating If you're buying foods at convenience stores or fast food restaurants or even regular restaurants Sometimes i'm surprised that menus don't have Kind of like more vegetables available when we talk about the fertility plate[00:15:00] and the whole plate being half Vegetables, right?

Angela: You're not going to get that in a restaurant, like the restaurant usually. So, you know, we, we have talked to women, we didn't really talk about this that much in the book, but like, I think some of the women gave us examples of, you know, planning when you go to a restaurant, gosh, what can I eat from this menu that would be more of a whole food, what are the, sometimes the side vegetables are something they'll order from some of those things to say like, yeah, I don't need to necessarily go for the most. Indulgent luxurious meal. I want to go for the whole foods cause I know that's what my body needs. So we talk about being intuitive eater or competent eater. It, you know, I don't think this is taught well in schools. So, you know, to, to be honest, nobody, it's nobody's fault. Like where you are, it's a growth opportunity for everybody to be like, Hey, I didn't really get this education growing up.

Angela: My parents worked. I didn't, you know, I didn't cook that much growing up, but now I'm an adult. And I need to really learn about [00:16:00] nutrition and what my body needs and how to heal myself through food. And what that might mean is I need to cook more. And if I don't know how to cook more with whole foods, You know, there's opportunities to learn.

Angela: There's so much now available on YouTube, or that's both good and not so good, but you know, you can find the good, the good things and learn to cook with whole foods and buy things like our book, which are trying to teach people almost some intuitive cooking skills. Cause you don't always want to be cooking from a recipe.

Angela: You want to get some basic staples and some comfort in the kitchen and some things you really are good at, and then always build new and add new. Okay. But yeah, so that was like one of the tenants of our philosophy of how we taught was, let's talk about, you know, building a meal. Let's talk about what vegetables are going to be in the meal, what protein is going to be in the meal.

Angela: And for us, that was mainly going to be a [00:17:00] plant based protein. So either beans, lentils. tofu or tempeh or edamame, so a soy based protein, or fish, since all of those have been shown to increase fertility. And then whole grains, those ancient grains, so not processed and kind of putting that all together and nuts and seeds and other things that provide those denser nutrients.

Angela: And really starting with like cutting things up, like, okay, let's prep everything. Let's do the mise en place. Let's get everything ready. Let's plan meals. So you're going to have leftovers. because it takes work and effort. You don't want to put all that effort in and then only eat once. So you want to have some leftover meals that you can repurpose throughout the week or free some of these meals that you're going to be able to then thaw out next week or next month when you're more time pressed, and you know, you've got your own freezer meal that you've prepared that you're going to be able to thaw out and cook and have a nutritious, delicious, quick meal, right?

Angela: So it's just a, I think it's a mindset, right? [00:18:00] It's a different way to think. And, and everybody can get there and just build that knowledge and build those skills. And that's exciting.

Michelle: It is exciting. I find that whenever you're learning something new, like you, you make it more complicated in your mind. You're like, oh, I have to do this whole thing. But you don't realize, like as you learn it, you could really strategize and make it so much easier and cheaper. You could save money that way.

Judy: Absolutely. Michelle, you bring up a really good point. And what's really fun is a lot of the women who've taken classes or patients of ours, like even after like two years after they have their baby, I'll get an email. You know, I saved all those recipes from class and I still love the, you know, the quinoa mango black bean salad.

Judy: It's so delicious in the summer. I take it to parties or one patient just wrote me about the soca bread made out of chickpeas that they start to add them to their repertoire or you want to increase their self efficacy, their confidence and their competency. And then when they do eat out, you know, maybe [00:19:00] they do broaden and they, you know, they go for an Indian meal or an Asian meal and they know like, Hey, I'm going to order one whole vegetarian.

Judy: So I get more broccoli and veggies like they know how to order and feel good. When they go out or they travel, you know, how can I take that and keep it better? And, you know, just really, you know, giving them that support. And so in the book, for some people, this is really new. We kind of do like a six week blueprint, but we also say like, If you feel pretty good on some of the skills and you've checked the box, awesome.

Judy: Work on some of those things that you, you want to build up stronger in your repertoire. And if you feel like you need more time, I remember when our class switched to virtual and we started to go to every other week, the women were like, this is kind of good because I have more time to work on my goals.

Judy: I kind of like that other, remember the every other week model? You could do that with a six week plan. Maybe I'm going to try to do this over twelve weeks, you know, three months, give myself some time to To try new things.[00:20:00] And the thing is you're getting the benefit with every step you take. There's a benefit, you know?

Judy: And so the cool thing for us is sometimes at the end of the class, women who didn't eat in the morning, they like. You know, we started eating in the morning because of class and the food was really good. They started regulating their cycles, Michelle. It was amazing. And one of our last live classes before COVID, I remember one table of four, they were all kind of waiting to get their cycles and things and getting ready for IVF.

Judy: And they all went on to conceive. They all got their cycles and went on to conceive. And that was just, the cost of food and, you know, putting a little bit of time in so that lifestyle does make a difference whether someone's going for art treatment or they're, you know, they're, you know, they're just maximizing their fertility options.

Michelle: Yeah, there was actually a study on girls in college that skipped breakfast and how it impacted their cycles I thought that was interesting[00:21:00]

Judy: I would guess negatively. I'm thinking if

Michelle: Negatively, yes negatively. Yeah. Yeah,

Judy: You know, I just want to check.

Michelle: They most of them started regular and it they became irregular.

Judy: You know, and people are getting into a lot of fads where they're really time boxing their food. I just talked to someone in a smaller body and she says, I'm trying to eat clean. So I only eat between this time and this time. I go,

Michelle: Mm hmm

Judy: you should eat when you're hungry. Your body needs nourishment all day, not just eight hours.

Judy: So sometimes we see people that are going to overboard. And they're restricting, and then their reproductive axis is not getting the nutrients it needs. And I'm like, that's not what you want to do for ag health. That's not what you want to do for reproductive health. If you feel cold at night and you're, and, and you know, and as we know with, you know, acupuncture and Chinese medicine, energy is such an important concept.

Judy: So if you're freezing all of a sudden, and you're starving [00:22:00] yourself, you're not nourishing your body.

Michelle: Absolutely. And actually in Ayurvedic medicine, they say that when the sun is out, that is when, because we, you know, we, we respond to the elements. And when the sun is out, especially like around 12 PM, you should have your largest meal because it increases your own digestive fire because we get influenced by nature.

Michelle: And actually the morning you should have breakfast, you should have food during the day when the digestive fire is. Increase the most and when you shouldn't is as it gets darker like a couple hours before you go to sleep That's when you can give your body a break. So it kind of According to Ayurveda, it's a little bit more flipped than what's typically done where people skip breakfast.

Angela: Right. And, and, you know, that, that exactly parallels some of the metabolic studies, right? So what Ayurvedic medicine is known for so long, right? And then Western medicine has to come and prove it that like our digestion is[00:23:00] better in the morning and the way glucose and, and. nutrients are processed in the morning is better when we have more energy and we're more active throughout the day.

Angela: And then at night, things are winding down and slowing down and you want your body to relax for sleep and not be digesting a big meal. And, and we do talk about that, but it is really hard for people to flip to try and get more calories and earlier in the day when fewer at night when the typical pattern is, is the opposite.

Michelle: and it's going to give them a lot more productivity and energy to have a good breakfast because you know, protein, you got those good fiber and vegetables and berries and, really start your day right.

Judy: We encourage people if they're really set in a way, we're like, we'll do it as an experiment. Be curious. Try it on the weekend. Maybe try it on the weekend because you don't want to change your flow. See how your energy feels, especially when people are telling us they're fatigued.

Judy: They're like, I'm so tired. And it's [00:24:00] like, and most of their energy intake is at night. They wake up not hungry. You know, we do try, you know, try to flip that around and that's part of that intuitive eating and eating competence and see where your body, because really people know a lot about their body and so we want them to be in tune to that too and trust that.

Angela: And I was just going to add that, you know, sometimes people have these ideas of what a typical breakfast, lunch, and dinner is and what food should be part of those meals. And we say, Hey, that does not have to be the case either. I love a breakfast salad. I love eating my leftover dinner from the night before for breakfast.

Angela: If I've made something delicious, I made this great stir fry and I've had a little bit because it's late, but I'm like, I want to have that for breakfast. I'm going to have a big bowl, you know, so I love having those other things early in the day because I do feel like it gives me great energy. And then the other thing that we talk about is, you know, the[00:25:00] walking after meals and especially getting outside early in the morning and getting that sunlight to really Start your day and, and get your clock going and how important those rhythms can be to recognize that you have, your body has a rhythm, sleep consistency is important, exercise and movement throughout the day is important, all these other things that we want to build in, you know, to our base for overall wellness to support fertility.

Michelle: Yeah. I love it. I love it that you're a doctor and you're interested in this because unfortunately it's not as common. Like people don't know about all of these things about really connecting with nature and the nutrition aspect of it. So it's amazing. It's so well rounded because you have like so many different backgrounds and perspectives on

Judy: We, we, we, yeah, we try to bring it all together and that's why this book would have been much longer if our publisher didn't say stop, you know, it was like twice as long. You'll see when you're writing your book, you want to share everything. And so we did include [00:26:00] two chapters on like boosters and disruptors, you know, talking about stress and sleep.

Judy: And then also some of the disruptors like, you know, alcohol, cannabis, endocrine disruptors, because we didn't want to scare people, but we felt they needed to know. And you know, science based, evidence based, but we did put it at the end. You know, we really focus on the food and feeding yourself because really that's what our program is all about.

Judy: But we find that when they put it all together and they get to those boosters and they add the movement and the stress and so many of our patients, patients who do acupuncture will say, well, that's one of the ways I always say, what do you get out of it? Cause I always want to know. And they go, Oh man, I'm such a good place to do.

Judy: I leave in my stress level is so much better. I go, then that's something you want to include in, in, in what you're doing for your health. If you have the privilege and you have the accessibility to it. So we, we try to make everything accessible. Because there's so [00:27:00] many women and men who don't have access to medical care when it comes to fertility.

Judy: It's really the underprivileged do not have access or such limited access that we thought if we could at least cover the main things and it could be, you know, available in libraries or, you know, things like that and audio books that that would be a way that more people could really have that information.

Michelle: Well, it's great information. And also, I love that it talks about. combining foods, in Chinese medicine, we have a lot of formulas of herbs. So each herbal formula has different herbs and they work together as a symphony. And a lot of times they'll include ginger or digestive herbs to help assimilate.

Michelle: So working together, And a certain symphony is what makes it that much more beneficial for the body. And I like how you talk about the importance of combining foods. You were talking about putting [00:28:00] vegetables because if you just eat meat without vegetables, it's not going to be able to simulate as well and digest as well without those vegetables helping in that fiber.

Angela: Right. The vegetables are actually pretty protective, right? So I mean, there, you know, there have been studies that look at people who eat just more of an all meat diet and then people who eat more of a vegetable based diet, but with meat and the gut is healthier, right? If you incorporate those vegetables the, the, because the fiber from the vegetables is so protective.

Angela: That then you are able to digest the, the meat and make use of the nutrients in the meat as well. So I think that's, that's great advice. And I think that, you know, out here we're in Seattle. And so we have a lot of, you know, we have a number of people who are trained in acupuncture. They are, you know, trained in traditional Chinese medicine.

Angela: And we have always basically said, you know, gosh, I don't know that area, [00:29:00] but I trust. The practitioners in my area who knows so much this has been around for so long that let's, you know, combine and talk about the best of all worlds and support everybody's health. And then the same with fertility clinics, like some people really are going to need that extra step of a traditional IVF clinic.

Angela: They might need insemination. They might need IVF. And then all these other things are going to be supportive and enhance their success because it's so expensive. And the last thing you want to have to do is multiple cycles. And so the more efficient you can make each cycle by bringing your best self forward into the process and taking the time, like a lot of people, you know, want to kind of take a lot of time to get to a fertility clinic.

Angela: And then once they get there, they want IVF yesterday. Like they want to be pregnant yesterday. So And it's still really about the time and the investment in, [00:30:00] you know, producing optimum health for you and your partner. And so that, you know, it might take a good three months, right? Of preparation to say, let's make sure when you do IVF, if you need IVF and you're going to do it, that everything's perfect.

Angela: As great as you can make it going into the cycle instead of just like, Oh, there's an opening next week. Let's get started. You know

Michelle: I wish all reproductive endocrinologists spoke like you

Angela: Oh, yeah. Thank

Judy: she, and she, and she walks the walk, you know, for all the patients we've had together. A lot of times after that initial consult, she'd be like, okay, I want you to do, you know, food for fertility and work on nutrition and lifestyle for three months. You know, let's see, you know, what we can do with some of these biomarkers that are, that are elevated in a very positive way.

Judy: And then quite often during that three months, a woman starts cycling. I always, I remember saying to Angela once years ago, I go, What if you put the [00:31:00] fertility clinics out of business? I mean, we were kidding, you know, when I said that they have the role. So please don't think I'm saying that, but you know, we did.

Judy: And she's like, great. She was like, wonderful. Let's help people on the easiest journey. Let's not, you know, when someone gets sent to me and they've already had three failed IVFs. for whatever reason. And they're like, okay, I want to work on my nutrition. I'm so happy to work with them, but I feel really bad because they're pretty wounded because they've been pretty disappointed and let down.

Judy: And sometimes it was something obvious that nobody ever brought up, you know, their eating disorder, their PCOS, that things could have been optimized first. So I think that's where we all work together. So I feel like that's why when you work in integrative planning, You know, practices. We, we work with, you know, fertility yoga instructors that we really trust and, and, and, and D's and dietitians and, and, you know, we know which clinics are going to be weight shaming, you know, we want to know [00:32:00] where can our patients put the best team together, where can they get support groups from resolve or other organizations so that they feel as fully supported as they go on this journey, because a lot of people, Never expected this.

Judy: They just, I went through unexplained infertility for years. Never thought that was in the bags for me, but it was like. You know, you feel helpless. So having a community, and I think when we all work together interdisciplinary, you know, and we know the best people to send our patients to, or best organizations, or how to check, we really help them.

Judy: We really, we really can help. So we're excited about you, you know, your future book. Yes. I mean, you know, I was just coming first, but yeah, looking for resources is so important, Michelle.

Angela: And I, right. And I think, you know, those resources are great. And then also if somebody is seeing somebody and it's not clicking. You know, it could be it could be their doctor. It could be their [00:33:00] dietitian. It could be whatever They you don't have to stay with the same person. You can actually go get another opinion you might You know, click better and work better with someone else who Has different information even it's not all the same.

Angela: So each of us don't necessarily provide the same information or You know, it's an art and a science and I think we all feel that that we connect with people It's so important, but we all connect differently And and as an individual each person should really You Make the most of that and, and really make that work for them.

Angela: They're the ones they're invested in it.

Michelle: That is so true. Absolutely true. I've seen people who have been going for years to one reproductive endocrinologist and then when they changed different approach, different energy, just like, and it was a different outcome,

Angela: Yep.

Michelle: you know, it happens. 

Judy: And if you make a change, [00:34:00] no one's mad at you. We all want the same end result. I always tell them all the clinics in this town, they're all friends. They all know each other, you know, professionally, they all know each other. They're going to send your charts.

Judy: They're not going to hold them back. You know, everybody does want a positive outcome, you know, to take place.

Michelle: Yeah. Yeah. That's great. I mean you know, not always the case, , but when it is, it's amazing, and it's true you really do have to find that alignment and I always say, you know, it takes a village and creating a team of different people that can support you in different ways.

Michelle: When going through this, but of course nutrition is so important in Chinese

Judy: We all eat.

Michelle: Yeah, we all eat and we eat for a reason a good reason, right?

Angela: Mm hmm.

Michelle: And the spleen and stomach are actually the center and they're like the mother in a sense, you know the nurturer Aspect of our bodies and that is really where everything else gets built they [00:35:00] talk about pre heaven chi pre heaven energy in the kidneys And of course the kidneys are really important But sustenance, the energy with which we can sustain and increase after our genetics is food,

Angela: Right. And I think, you know, that's just kind of being understood. I mean, I think in science, Yeah. We now are recognizing, you know, there's genetics, and then there's epigenetics, which is how the genes are expressed and the epigenetics is how we influence which genes are expressed. And that has to do with our nutrition, our stress.

Angela: Our sleep, our movement, our community, our mental disposition, our mental health, our optimism. All these things have a huge impact in our health by the epigenetics. And I think people sometimes think it's just genetics and things are. A predetermined and it's going to be one way and it's totally [00:36:00] not. You have so much influence as a, as an individual about what path your life can take and how your health is affected by these decisions you make every day.

Michelle: which is so empowering, I think, to know that you actually can have a hand in your

Angela: Mm hmm. 

Judy: , I was just thinking we almost wanted to add a whole another chapter on epigenetics, but we had to pull it back. So we just kind of sprinkled it in, you know, the lifestyle things. But even when we work with people who are using donor eggs, their health will have an impact on these epigenetics. So that really empowering that mom, you are the full mom, you know, even with a donor egg, what you eat, your life, your health.

Judy: Is going to have an impact on your baby. And I think that really helps people to know that

Michelle: That is such a good point. It's really true because it's, it's all important. It's all parts of the [00:37:00] whole.

 That's where you do have control right over your lifestyle. And these some of these decisions because you don't always have control over your fertility. I mean, certain aspects are just out of your control, and you do feel that helplessness.

Angela: And so I think where you can feel good and feel empowered is, you know, these are the actions I can take. These are the steps I can take. I am making progress. I am growing as a person. I'm helping myself. I'm helping my community. Whatever the case may be, I try to recommend not kind of losing yourself in just trying to get pregnant.

Angela: Really recognize your, yourself as a whole person and all the things you are providing to, to your community through purpose and service and love and, and everything you're doing is just, it's key to who you are and it brings you strength and peace. And that's just really [00:38:00] Great to know and you, those are decisions you can make.

Angela: That's not something out of your control.

Michelle: That's so important. And thank you for bringing that up and you guys, I could talk to you guys for hours cause you know what, you know what I love? Well, first of all, your knowledge, you guys are very knowledgeable about what you're talking about, but the passion , and the compassion. With which you are operating 

Michelle: I think we both have one major thing in common is that we love this community and it's a beautiful community to serve. And so for people who want to find you or read your book, how can they find you?

Judy: Well, the book is available at all major books, booksellers and many of the independent ones request it getting to baby book.com. It will be released April 9th. So I'm not sure when this is released, but April 9th will be released. It can be pre-ordered. You can follow me at Fertile Nutrition or on my website, mindbody nutrition.com [00:39:00] and Angela.

Angela: And you can also request the book from your library. So libraries don't automatically stock books, but if individuals make a request to a library, the library can order the book. So that's something to know as well. And then I'm at AngelaThiremd. com or at AngelaThiremd on Instagram.

Michelle: Awesome. It was such a pleasure meeting the two of you. You guys are so nice and so knowledgeable and just really lovely to talk to. So thank you so much for coming on the podcast today.

Angela: Thank you, Michelle.

Judy: Michelle. Thanks, Michelle.

Angela: to you as well. 

EP 284 Defying the Odds: An Incredible Fertility Story of Hope

On tomorrow’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, Alana McGlashan of @thenurturedwomban_ shares her personal fertility challenge story and experience with Asherman's syndrome. She discusses the complications she faced after a miscarriage and the diagnosis of severe Asherman's syndrome. Alana shares her journey of healing and preparing her body for conception, as well as her experiences with pregnancy and loss. She emphasizes the importance of connecting with the heart and womb, and the power of self-trust in the healing process. I was deeply moved by her story of hope and how she found strength to listen deeply to her soul’s calling and knowing that she was meant to have her children. Be sure to tune in!

Description:

Alana experienced miscarriage, Ashermans Syndrome & infertility on her journey to conceive. Navigating Asherman's Syndrome was one of the hardest times of her life as she was told due to the severity she may not be able to have children. Sending her on a healing journey that although may have taken 2 years, she now has 2 children later. The medicine she found on her journey she now shares with women in her 1:1 energetic womb explorations, helping women to rewrite the story they have been told on their own fertility journey & setting the foundations for profound healing. You can find her on Instagram @thenurturedwomban_

For more information about Michelle, visitwww.michelleoravitz.com

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook:https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

Transcript:

[00:00:00]

Michelle: Welcome to the podcast, Alana.

Alana: Hi, how are you going?

Michelle: Good. So I'd love for you to share your story. I know that it's been a very personal fertility challenge story and definitely defied the odds from what you were told. And I love stories of hope. So I'm very excited to have you on and share your story and your experience with Asherman's syndrome, which I think a lot of people aren't really aware or may not even be aware that they actually have.

Alana: Yeah, absolutely. And at the time, you know, I had no idea what it was and it was something I was searching for in the hopes to hear hope, because I was just hearing a lot of stats and a lot of Let's say stories that I didn't, I didn't want to hear at the time. So I felt pregnant and lost that little baby at 10 weeks.

Alana: And I was a scientist working in Sydney, which is from [00:01:00] where I live, two hours travel away. And I went to the early early pregnancy. room, and they gave me all these options of what you can do next. And. At the time, everything, I would say I was heavily in my masculine energy. Like all just do the things, list out the steps and we will follow them to become parents.

Alana: And because I traveled so far away, I took the option of a DNC, which is a dilation and curette. I'm not sure if that's called anything else anywhere else. And it's just basically the surgical removal. Yeah. Okay, cool. And yeah, and I woke up to complications after that. And, you know, after being told like, it's so routine and I just thought, you know, it would be simple.

Alana: We do this and then I have a bleed and we can start trying again. And I woke up to, yes, as I said, complications. And [00:02:00] feeling really disorientated and I just felt really in my gut like wow what what just happened and they kind of just brushed me off and My doctor, then later, just was like, okay, well it's been six weeks, you haven't got your bleed back.

Alana: Sometimes women need a little bit longer. And I just knew in my gut things weren't right. And for me, I had no period. So 12 weeks, post that surgery. I still had no period. Yeah. And I think maybe around the eight weeks I, I was like, no, my gut's telling me something's not right. I'm going to book a specialist appointment and because they take so long to get into, I thought I'm just going to book it now.

Alana: And if I don't need it, then I can cancel it. 

Michelle: Did you, did you know anything at the time? Did they say something was off or you just kind of felt

Alana: yeah, they, there was nothing ever mentioned of Ashman syndrome. The only thing that they mentioned, I mean, they obviously mentioned some risks that can happen and the risks, risks are a perforated uterus, but it's so [00:03:00]routine that if that was to happen, that was really negligence. And that was all that they had described as a potential risk.

Alana: So I hadn't even heard of Ashman's by this point, like, and so I followed my gut, made this appointment and it must have been around the four month mark after surgery and I told him my story thinking I was just going in there to get a tablet that would just help kickstart everything. Maybe I just needed some help to get things along.

Alana: And again, you know, I was, I was very naive at that time on, of my cycle and understanding my body. And I walked in and told him my story. And basically he said, we, there's something called Ashman syndrome, and I feel that this is, this is your situation. And. We need to get in and have a look like, cause he could do it via scans and then go in and do surgery, but he's like, due to the nature of how long you've already waited and the scar tissue that would be there if it was [00:04:00] confirmed.

Alana: We need to get this cleaned up ASAP basically.

Michelle: Before we continue on the details, I want people to know like, what is Asherman's syndrome?

Alana: So Ashman's syndrome is basically where scar tissue grows inside the uterus and reduces your fertility as a result from some form of surgery. So they might try and say just from DNC, but if you have a baby and maybe there's retained placenta and they clean it out that way, any sort of surgical intervention within your uterus, Could potentially scar.

Alana: And I think what's important for women to know right now is that any change in your period. Or if you're experiencing difficulties falling could be a sign. I have no women after, so the percentage is actually quite low. I forgot to look it up before we jumped on today of Ashermans. But The other women that I had sort [00:05:00] of searched for to bring awareness to our local hospital and their procedures, they had their period, but their periods just were different, a little bit lighter, maybe they didn't go as long, there was just a lot less.

Alana: small signs, which they quite easily then got fobbed off as just being paranoid in a sense. And then all turned out to have different stages of Ashman's, whereas I had none and my stage was quite high. Actually the highest he had seen in my local area. So that was not good news for me.

Michelle: Yeah.

Alana: yeah, so long story short, he said we need to operate and Confirm, and if so, it's a 20 minute procedure, I'll be in and I'll be out.

Alana: And, I thought, oh, I thought my legs were pulled out from me at that moment, but from that surgery I woke up and I felt really disorientated, as you do, and he's standing there waiting for me to wake up to tell me that, [00:06:00] yes, I've confirmed it's Ashman's Syndrome, however, it is so severe, I I've been in there for four hours and I can't see without risking damage to your uterus.

Alana: And I need to do some further tests before we continue. And I remember the first thought I thought of was, am I going to be able to have children? And he had this solemn look on his face and he goes, I have no idea what's possible right now. And I was just. Gutted. Absolutely gutted.

Michelle: Wow. That is so real. I mean to be in a situation like that and just thinking, okay, I'm going to go in and have the surgery and everything's going to be fine, it's going to be, what did he say? 20 minutes? And to actually see that it's really severe so what happened after that? 

Alana: Yeah, so I then had to go you have to allow a little bit of [00:07:00] time for some healing and they put in, I think it depends for the surgeon, but I got a gel put in that just kind of tried to help what he did pull away with the scar tissue not to reform because there is a risk that as he opens it up, like the little spindles might.

Alana: touch and then start to pull together. So they put in this gel that lasts, I think, for four weeks. So I had to wait a month. And then he sent me for a we call it here a sonar histogram. So it's just a ultrasound where they insert water into your uterus. And then they can see like a good picture, the flow, if there's any blocks.

Alana: And I think for women that might have blocked fallopian tubes, sometimes they use this and it can either unblock or at least identify that the fallopian tubes are blocked. And, I'm just going to say that was the worst pain I had ever been in getting that. And again, no one warned me that it could be uncomfortable.

Alana: And I wouldn't say uncomfortable [00:08:00] was the word. And I was just so lucky. I had a girlfriend who came with me and just said, look, I can, I can sit here and hold your hand while they do this. And it probably turned out the reason why for me it was so painful, but I have now heard many other women describe it as quite excruciating.

Alana: Is that my, most of my uterus? was scarred to the point that it was nearly completely shut.

Michelle: Oh, wow.

Alana: And so they were trying to obviously shove water in it and like open it up when it could not. And so that again was like a really hard thing to take. And the specialist had said that he will have to do this with multiple surgeries. The good news is there is a side, there's a little part that is open and he believed if he could get to there, then he could. Remove the rest and it may take a few surgeries, but he just wanted to take his time.

Alana: He didn't want to [00:09:00] cause more damage. And so we had just resigned to the fact that this is a process that needs to be done and there's no rushing it. And the good news was the next surgery, he was able to remove all the scar tissue. And again, he inserted the gel so that the hopes that nothing would close back up.

Alana: And then I had another follow up, just normal ultrasound, because I said, I was too scarred to have that other ultrasound again and yeah. And then from there he's like, okay, this is great. You know, we've got, we've got rid of it. The uterus has opened back up. It's gone to normal shape again. Let's work on your lining.

Alana: So a. Do I call it a symptom afterwards? Is that Your lining may not become thick again. And he is also an IVF specialist. So he was really [00:10:00] wanting my lining to get to a certain thickness that he would put his, or would want his IVF patients to be on which just was not happening. And at first it was really disheartening.

Alana: And so he'd reached out to, there's a guru in Sydney, and then he went further. I think it was It was overseas and he just said, you know, like some of them don't come back, you know, any thicker. And that is, that is their lining. And so obviously being a scientist, I had read all the papers, read all the stats and nothing was looking great to have a baby.

Alana: Some women had not many in the severity that I had. And if they did have one that were high risks the risk was the placenta could attach to your uterus muscle. And just a whole heap of other things that you really don't want to hear when all you want to do is be a mom. [00:11:00] And yeah, so it was like, I just kept going to this place and this place just kept giving me the answers that did not agree with what was in my heart.

Alana: And I just thought this can't be my story. This can't be my only story. And I just had this feeling to expand where I was looking. And so I started to research other modalities. And I thought, you know what, if I can just help support my body, who knows what's possible. And I ended up finding a traditional Chinese medicine practitioner who specialized in fertility and I went there weekly for two years.

Alana: Yes. And I felt good. I felt like this was where I was meant to be, but it was really hard to hear the things that she[00:12:00] was saying. Like your body can be trusted. Your body can self heal. Everything's possible because at the time I was so, as I said, in my masculine energy of stats and facts that.

Michelle: hmm.

Alana: how, how, and it wasn't until obviously with the, with the acupuncture and the herbs, my mind started to heal, my heart started to heal, that then my womb had a chance to heal.

Alana: And of course it sent me on this huge journey, deep dive into energetics of the womb and its capacity, its ability. And I started to believe that, whoa, okay. She's a powerful organ, and not just organ, portal for creation. And,

Alana: Right? Tingles! Yeah!

Michelle: Yeah. When you said heart, that struck me. 'cause I know that the heart's connected to the uterus.

Alana: And, [00:13:00] it wasn't, it took me a long time to put two and two together. And, your emotional state. And like, the womb is the element of water, so your emotions. And it's the sister heart, right? So of course, our emotions are going to get stored in our uterus. And if she's too busy trying to hold our emotions that we're not processing, how was I giving her the space she needed to heal in the timeframe I wanted, you know?

Alana: And it was just, my world had opened up. I still had at that time stayed close to the medical system. There was still fears, you know. that if I had fallen pregnant what that then might look like, what that journey may look like. And we decided to focus not on a baby at the moment, just focus on healing, get married.

Alana: And I fell pregnant on my honeymoon or I found out on my honeymoon and we were so excited. But [00:14:00]again, I decided not to get a scan until a bit later, but that, that Bubby had decided only six weeks was it's time on this earth. And as, Sad as that was. It actually gave me the biggest sense of hope. And I realized the message was just give me time,

Michelle: Oh,

Alana: me time.

Michelle: wow.

Alana: And so I was like, okay, this is possible. That was without intervention. That was without any other, cause I had a lot of fear around anyone going in my uterus again, because of course I trusted someone to go in there and do their job. And I came out damaged and that really, and that like, not just you were hurt from that.

Alana: That changed the projection of my life completely. And so I had a lot of mistrust. I didn't want anyone to go near it if I could help it. So I really wanted that natural approach. And as I said, as that strength between [00:15:00] heart and womb grew, I knew that that was going to be possible and I just had to trust that you know, the divine timing of trusting and surrender is not the easiest thing to fall into or follow, but.

Alana: I just had to trust that my heart was guiding me on the path that, that then needed to be.

Alana: Sorry, that brings up lots of emotions thinking about back then.

Alana: And so, yeah, it was, it was actually quite interesting that the divine timing of the, that baby that I then lost the second time, my family suffered a significant loss in like my immediate family not long after. And. I believe that that baby also knew that it wasn't the time because I needed to be there for my little brother.

Alana: And it was, I was just, [00:16:00] you know, at the time you just think, wow, I'm cop and blow after blow. But when you had the little bit of space, you just thought, well, how would I have been able to grow a baby right now? Like I am in so much grief. It, it was insane. And then once He was better. I went on a Bali trip with a best friend and we just, she's like, you just need to, you know, live life a little bit.

Alana: And we went on this retreat and it was when we came back from that, we were like, okay, I feel like we're in a good place now. Like I'm in a good place. Let's just see what happens without the pressure and the timing and the scheduling. I didn't want conceiving to be a job. I really wanted it to be from the heart. And it was about, yeah, because I feel like when you're struggling, you really take the heart out of conceiving and conception.

Michelle: is, you are, every single thing is a quote. I'm like, this is amazing. This is really, I'm [00:17:00] feeling this.

Alana: Conception isn't just the creation between man and woman,

Michelle: Yes.

Alana: It's a co creation with the spirit of that baby and what it, what fuses that love, you know? And. I wanted the next baby to be strong, strong enough to like, whatever we needed to go through, we had each other. And. 

Michelle: Like the stuff that you're telling, like it's making me emotional. Just so you know, like I'm really feeling every word that you're saying, not to interrupt, but continue.

Alana: I probably needed that pause for a second. Yeah. And so then we found out in February I was pregnant and you know what? I knew, I knew instantly this was the baby, that this baby was going nowhere, that they were here and. My dreams had come true. There were still fears around the placenta attaching to my uterus and what that could mean.

Alana: And at the end of the [00:18:00] day, I have resided to the fact that if this was going to be my only baby, so be it because I wanted this baby. And. Yeah, I was in, I was, I had an OB because if things did start to go south, we wanted to be on that early. But anyways, I had a beautiful pregnancy. No complications.

Alana: The placenta was in a great spot. And it even got to the point, because most, the stats had suggested that women with Ashmans have. a caesarean. And again, that fear of do not go near that part of my body. I don't want you there. I really didn't want it if I didn't have to. And I said, can I, can I try, can I try and go natural?

Alana: Like everything is going well. There is no indication of anything wrong. And it was looking good and she thought possibly, but then my son decided to stay in the breech position and [00:19:00] I was not in the place that I am in now where I would continue with a vaginal birth. I mean, I was born a breech baby vaginally.

Alana: And so I found it really hard that the quote I was told was that we have lost the art to birth a breech baby or the skills, not the art. And I was like, Oh, okay. And then today I think, I'm sorry, who's birthing the baby?

Michelle: Mm hmm.

Alana: The mom,

Michelle: Right?

Alana: the mom is birthing the baby. Not you. Yes, you're assisting, but yeah, so, You know, my views today would have changed on that.

Alana: But at the time, again, as I had mentioned, I, we just wanted the baby. And she did give me options to do that, like manipulation, my traditional Chinese medicine practitioner, she was doing all the things to create the space. Yeah. Everything. I had everything going. I had it at home on my toes. I was doing the [00:20:00] upside down poses, which mind you made me feel absolutely terrible.

Alana: And so I just said to my husband, I can't do this. Like. This feels wrong. And and I have to resign to the fact that. He found his position and he was not moving and that's where he wanted to be. And then it was my choice to decide how then that, that became our birth together. And so we had a cesarean beautiful little boy, everything great.

Alana: It all went great. And so afterwards, because of the scarring and that fear that I had around my uterus, I didn't want to fall back in a place of like dissociation and detachment from it. Like I had. Started to rebuild this relationship with my womb. And now they've just. Also added another scar. And I was like, well, I've had one baby who's to say I can't have another like, and so I went on another deeper journey again.

Alana: And with my practitioner of healing this scar tissue and softening it before it has the chance to [00:21:00] really harden in preparation for the next baby. And.

Michelle: And this was acupuncture or another

Alana: Acupuncture at the beginning. And then it was probably for the first six months I did acupuncture and she showed me how to self massage my scar tissue. And what else did we do? There was just a lot of hands on touch. And I think her focus was to remind me that you can still have loving touch on your body.

Alana: After everything I had gone through. And after six months, It got a little bit hard with a little baby cause she was in Sydney where I had found it cause it was close to where it was really hard to get up to her. And now that he was starting to move and be mobile, it was a lot harder to have a session on my own.

Alana: And so then I started looking at other modalities. I thought, well, okay, I've done all the acupuncture. Let's see what else there is. And I come across a lady who did Yoni steaming and she did energetic [00:22:00] support. Consultations beforehand. And it became just a really beautiful practice where I could turn within and I could nourish myself and just steam and just visualize the blood flow going back to my uterus and everything being soft and really in that feminine essence, that feminine energy to allow that nurturing to happen to my womb.

Alana: And I went weekly. Until my bleed came back, which was 14 months post as I was a breastfeeding mom postpartum. And, you know, we were kind of on this urgency, let's, let's fall pregnant straight away because of everything we had. We didn't expect it to take two years to get our son. And I'm already in my thirties.

Alana: So there was like that time pressure to, all right, if we want more children, cause you know, we had always talked about having four and we're like, Oh gosh, I don't know if four is going to happen now, but if we can get. You know, on the roll, we'll see what happens. And so I had to reduce my breastfeeds to get my bleed [00:23:00] back so that we could fall pregnant.

Alana: And when we decided to start consciously conceiving, so I think it was just the month of that I ended up with my bleed. I started to feel this essence, this person, this spirit around me. And it was the first time I had really started to attune into these senses. And. I just could feel this girl, this pink.

Alana: I could see pink around me when when she'd just show up. And it was really interesting because the month I fell pregnant. So obviously that two week wait, I couldn't feel her. I didn't know where she was. And I was like, Oh, I feel like she's here. And I was pregnant and I didn't tell anyone apart from the lady that I went to Yoni steaming, because we'd always talk about, you know what, what do I feel like a baby might be?

Alana: And I was like, to be honest, I can actually sense this female around me. And I just get these glimpses of[00:24:00] pink like a pink orb and yeah. And then it turned out I had a daughter and what was beautiful about that pregnancy, I mean, we didn't find out. I like to just wait till birth to find out what the gender of our babies are.

Alana: And. I did not want to go back to the hospital system. I didn't want to be put in a place where they would just see my history and then start to implement things that then of course would lead to other interventions that I didn't want. I didn't want to be supported in that way. I knew the capability of my body.

Alana: I, like my pregnancy was again, a really gentle, easy pregnancy. I mean, I was very sick, but overall easy. And. I decided to home birth. And again, that was like a huge thing. Like in my immediate community, you know, no one does that. And so I didn't want to tell anyone cause I didn't need anyone's opinion [00:25:00] to discourage me from this because I had, I think it was just before I tested on a stick and I only tested on the stick to show my husband, like I didn't, I already knew I was pregnant.

Alana: I had this vision that the birth would be at home. And so I really just wanted to trust that That was again, where I needed to go and I needed to trust. And that took a lot of self confidence to be able to say, no, this is, this is what I want to do and why. And yeah, I had my daughter at home and now I always knew that like my journey was.

Alana: A lesson to be learned. It was a, because if I continued on the path I had continued, I would not be the woman I am today. I wouldn't be the mother I am today. I wouldn't be making the choices I've been making for myself and my family today. And it was like a realignment, but also a [00:26:00] gift for medicine for me to be able to share with women.

Alana: And, you know, I want my story to be heard, but I've also then set up my own business so that I can still be at home with my babes because I want to raise my children. And I want to help women who feel like their story is just hurdle after hurdle. And what I've learned in this, this journey is like what we see in our physical body is only the tip of the iceberg.

Michelle: Oh, yes.

Alana: Yeah, and like when we're looking and talking about our womb, the energetic womb, there is so much she holds and there's so much healing that needs to start there. And the first thing I like to check with women is that connection between heart and womb, is there coherence and resonance? How are they emotionally feeling?

Michelle: my language.

Alana: right. And, [00:27:00] and that's why I, I love listening to your podcast because I just was like, you get this. 

Michelle: I feel the same way about you, by the way.

Alana: And now I, I want women to like know how important it is to care for your womb and what we're seeing as manifestations on the physical side, the root cause. The reason that you may not be seeing change is not in the physical. It's in your energetics. Yeah.

Michelle: 100 percent Oh my God. I mean, I'm telling you, like, I'm so moved by your story, but also it just fascinates me like beyond fascinates me. When you were saying that you're a scientist, like from somebody who came from a science perspective and background, and yet, even though you were still there, you still had your inner voice.

Michelle: Letting know something was off, like the doctors didn't tell you anything was off. Nobody came to you after[00:28:00] the surgery and said, you know, something looks off. You figured it out. You knew it from the inside out. The wisdom within your body spoke to you

Alana: Absolutely.

Michelle: heard it.

Alana: Yeah. And I think sometimes for women, if you allow that external noise to be too loud, you're going to feel it in your heart. You're going to feel it as grief, as sadness, as like, why is this happening? But that noise is too loud.

Michelle: Mm

Alana: And. You know, if, if all you take away from my story is that deep knowing it's okay to know that your path could be different and maybe that's your sign to go searching elsewhere

Michelle: I mean, yeah, it's incredible. First of all, it takes a lot of courage. Oh, I mean, it takes a [00:29:00] lot of courage to hear something from an authority figure, especially if it's like people you're relying on and in the medical community and I'm just FYI, I'm not saying not to listen to your doctors but for your specific journey, your journey Had twists and turns and part of it did rely on you listening to your own gut and, and really getting to the bottom of it.

Michelle: And you remind me a lot of a patient who came on the podcast, her name was Amy and she was in her forties. And she also was told she couldn't get pregnant with her own eggs and that she was approaching menopause. And she ended up having two babies afterwards, healthy babies. And she had this determination in her.

Michelle: She was just, there was this. Kind of strength. And her voice was so loud, like her inner voice and not her voice. Her inner voice was so loud in telling her, no, no, no, no, no, you gotta, and she had this [00:30:00] determination within her that I see in you. And it's not something that is easy for everybody to answer that call.

Michelle: Like it's not an easy call to answer

Alana: No. And it's, it's a fire within, but it doesn't mean it's an easy path. And it's like, you have to have the courage to continue to choose, to continue to choose what you know to be true. And I had many challenges. There was many times where I was like, well, I feel like the universe sometimes goes, are you sure?

Alana: Because you can choose here if you want to, because we were given choice on this, on this earth. Right. And you can choose to go this way because maybe you believe this is easier. Or keep going as a reminder, you know, just to, to, to choose and yeah, that fire and that courage, like there was a lot of times where I felt like, I don't know, [00:31:00] you know, because you don't know, there's so much unknown and the world really like thrives on structure because that brings safety and that brings knowing and this path can be so unknown and all, all you can do is put one foot.

Alana: In front of the other and trust yourself, just trust in yourself, because then the pieces will start to fall and they will start to come. Yes, you may need to choose yourself, but keep choosing yourself and your baby. Because if you desire a baby, that desire is meant for you. Can you trust that?

Michelle: You know what they say, there's that Rumi quote, it says, what you seek is seeking you.

Alana: Yeah. Because otherwise, why would we? Why would we have that desire to do so?

Michelle: I really believe that. That, thank you for saying that because I really, really believe that to be true. And I think a lot of people. learn from so many different opinions and so much of that noise, outside [00:32:00] noise, it dilutes their faith in that being true. Just because we don't have proof for something doesn't mean it's not true.

Alana: Yeah. And you get to, you get to decide what's true for you. And I think that's when you come back to the medical system and your doctors is just having a place of discernment. Is this really true for you? And you know, if you can come from a place of self-trust and that self-trust guided you to go there, absolutely listen to that.

Alana: Like my message is, listen and guide from within.

Michelle: And when you talk about that heart, well, like there's this heart brain coherence, but the heart has. An energy field that's stronger than any other organ in our body. And people think it's all in the brain, but the heart actually has a way larger magnetic field. It has such an important role on our mind and it has such an important role on our uterus, [00:33:00]which is life giving and love gives life, breathes life.

Michelle: So talk about that resonance and that coherence and what you've learned about it. When it comes to the heart and the uterus.

Alana: so I want to start with a quote from Joe Dispenza that I had just recently heard, and it kind of just put the words to place of what I was feeling, and it, he says, We only accept, believe, and surrender to the thoughts that are equal to our emotional state. We only accept, believe, and surrender to the thoughts that are equal to our emotional state.

Alana: And I was like, they're the words that I'm kind of searching for. Right. Because a lot of my sensations that come through me are feelings. So I knew the heart needed to heal and healing the heart allows for the womb to heal and this relationship, this agreement between the two, like the womb holding on temporarily to [00:34:00] emotions, to.

Alana: then return to the heart so the heart can process and leave our body. And so there was a lot of practices that I have incorporated and I still do them daily where I will do a little visualization and my intention is always love. And You can still have love and gratitude, even if you're feeling deep sadness.

Alana: And it's not about, I don't want to be sad anymore. Let's reject that. This is grief is one of the deepest emotions you can have that has profound healing when you allow it to run its course.

Michelle: Yes.

Alana: And I think for women who are trying to conceive, when you're struggling, the thoughts that start to come up why me? Why is my womb not working? I can't, I [00:35:00] can't fall pregnant. I can't do this. You know there is anger, there is a disconnection and disassociation from your womb and really. In this society, we are already starting from a place of disconnection from our first bleed and reconnecting, honing in. And sometimes it's as simple as 30 seconds, close down your eyes, put your hand on your womb.

Alana: You take a deep belly breath,

Alana: visualizing your hands that are warm. That mama hug that you just love to feel. Wrapping around your womb.

Alana: And then telling it, I love you. Thank you for everything you are doing. [00:36:00] I know you want this too.

Alana: And then bringing your hand back to your heart space.

Alana: Feel that heartbeat.

Alana: Your own rhythm. beating in your womb

Alana: and feel the love between the two.

Alana: Maybe you like to envision a rope, a golden cord, connecting, vibrating,

Alana: sending out this beautiful white light. That's so strong and so pure.[00:37:00]

Alana: Feel it wrap around your body,

Alana: feel it encapsulate you.

Alana: And then on your next inhale, breathe it all back in, breathe it into your cells, every inch of your being, physical, emotional mental and spiritual

Alana: and opening your eyes and practicing a simple visualization I found daily was strengthening this reconnection. It allowed my inner voice to be heard. It built trust and surrender to the process because pregnancy, birth, motherhood, it is all setting you up. It is not something that you can plan out.

Alana: The key is surrender.

Michelle: hmm. Oh, [00:38:00] yeah.

Alana: I get reminded of that every day.

Michelle: Yeah, I think we all do, even though we've been on the path for a long time, the spiritual path really, that is in the path of truth and alignment. It doesn't matter. We get reminded every single day and I can literally talk to you for hours. I mean, There's just so much, so much information, so many things, so many ahas that I felt talking to you and I really truly think that you are so aligned in, I mean, I literally think that you're channeling wisdom.

Michelle: You're very much connected to that. I can feel it. I could feel the truth in your words. I can feel the alignment I feel the awareness and the knowing and the true knowing of thyself. I think know thyself that's like the key and the only way to do that is to get quiet and To connect with your inner wisdom and to hear what your body is telling you because the more you hear it The more your connection with it gets stronger.

Michelle: And of [00:39:00] course I can talk to you for hours, but we don't have as much as I wish, but, but I would love for you to share how people can find you and how people can work with you.

Alana: Yeah, absolutely.

Michelle: are inspired, which I know they are from your story.

Alana: So you can find me on Instagram at the nurtured woman. Womb, W O M B A N and currently the way to work with me is through my one on one sessions and they're energetic womb explorations for one hour where we can just dive into your current state, your desire, and really start honing into this connection between heart and womb with then obviously the opportunity to extend.

Alana: But That is the point of contact.

Michelle: Awesome. Well, I definitely feel you are connected to that womb. wisdom and I know that womb wisdom does actually speak to us. So Alana, [00:40:00] thank you so much for coming on here today. Sharing your incredible story, like really incredible. Like I felt it on every level of my being. It got me emotional listening to your story.

Michelle: And I thank you so much for coming on today.

Alana: you so much for having me. It was such a pleasure.

EP 283 Why Acupuncture & Herbs are Game-changing for Fertility Health

In today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, Mike Berkley shares his personal journey with acupuncture and herbal medicine in fertility treatment. He highlights the value of integrative medicine in fertility enhancement. Mike explains how acupuncture and herbal medicine improve fertility by increasing blood flow to the ovaries and testes, enhancing egg and sperm quality. He also discusses the importance of preparing for IVF and the timing of treatment. 

Mike Berkley, LAc, FABORM, is a licensed and board-certified acupuncturist and a board-certified herbalist. He is a fertility specialist at The Berkley Center for Reproductive Wellness in the Midtown East neighborhood of Manhattan, New York. Infertility can be a daunting journey for couples longing to start a family, which is a reality Mike faced with his wife. Luckily, she sought the guidance of an acupuncturist and herbalist who possessed some knowledge of reproductive issues. Despite initial disappointments, after undergoing acupuncture and herbal medicine treatments for seven months, the couple became pregnant and carried the child to term without any complications. Their once seemingly elusive dream had become a beautiful reality thanks to the remarkable effects of acupuncture and herbal medicine. This experience led Mike to obtain his degree in acupuncture from the Pacific College of Oriental Medicine's New York campus and his National Board Certification in herbal medicine. Equipped with the necessary license and fueled by an insatiable thirst for knowledge, Mike studied Western medical approaches and the ancient wisdom of Chinese medicine about infertility treatment. Through rigorous study and invaluable clinical experience, he developed unique acupuncture protocols and proprietary herbal formulas, tailoring them to each individual or couple seeking his assistance. Mike is also a member of several organizations, including the Acupuncture Society of New York and the American Infertility Association. He is writing a book on reproductive disorders and Chinese medicine and hosts his groundbreaking seminars nationwide. Mike has witnessed firsthand the life-changing potential these ancient practices hold for couples struggling with infertility. Together, he can help transform your dreams into reality and create a world where the joy of parenthood knows no bounds.

Website: www.berkleycenter.com

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/mikeberkley56/

For more information about Michelle, visitwww.michelleoravitz.com

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook:https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

Transcript:

Chapters:

00:00 Introduction and Personal Journey

00:30 Discovering Acupuncture and Herbal Medicine

05:16 The Limitations of Western Reproductive Medicine

06:33 The Value of Integrative Medicine in Fertility Treatment

08:59 How Acupuncture and Herbal Medicine Improve Fertility

20:16 Living in Accordance with Nature and the Impact on Fertility

26:11 The Mind-Body Connection and the Importance of Mental and Emotional Health

28:48 The Impact of Acupuncture on Blood Flow

32:35 The Heart and Uterus Connection

33:49 Contact Information

Michelle (00:00)

Welcome to the podcast, Mike. Yeah, I'm actually really happy to have you. And

mike berkley (00:02)

I'm thrilled to be here. Thank you for having me.

Michelle (00:07)

read about your story and I find it fascinating that you guys started out as patients, kind of like how I was. I was working in New York, really close to you, for doing architecture. So completely different life, completely different world. So I went in for my menstrual irregularities and then everything started getting resolved.

for the first time with acupuncture. And I know you guys were also moved by it with your own journey. So I'd love for you to share your story and how you got into this type of work.

Mike berkley (00:39)

Sure, I'd be happy to. So, while I was in acupuncture school, my wife and I were trying to have a baby. And we couldn't. And I had, she had anti -sperm antibodies and I had, I don't remember, motility issues or morphology issues or something. And she went to a...

She didn't go to a reproductive endocrinologist. She went to a gynecologist and he wanted to do some IUIs. And then she met or heard about an acupuncturist and herbalist in New York. And she went to this one.

And the woman gave her herbs and acupuncture and gave me some

then two months later, I was I think I was working and going to school. I can't remember so long ago, but she called me. My wife called me and said that she was pregnant and I didn't know anything about medicine in any way, shape or form. And I said, how do you know?

And she said, well, I peed on the stick. And I said, well, that's all well and good, but I don't believe in that. You better go to the doctor and get a blood test. And she did. And now I have a 29 year old son. Yeah. So I got very inspired at that time to pursue knowledge in the realm of reproductive medicine.

Michelle (02:03)

amazing.

Mike berkley (02:17)

And so I spent many years studying Western reproductive medicine. I don't mean officially, I didn't go to medical school, but on my own, I studied a lot of Western reproductive medicine and a lot of acupuncture and a lot of herbs. And I've been treating fertility cases exclusively. Like I won't treat a neck or a back or a headache. I've been treating fertility cases exclusively for 27 years.

Michelle (02:29)

Yeah. Amazing.

So that's awesome. I mean, I personally love working with fertility. I first started, it was more general, but I just love it. And the rewards are like insane. You know, when you get the positive pregnancy pictures sent to you and it's really incredible and people are shocked. Oftentimes, because they're like, there's no way. I mean, sometimes five years of nothing like Western medicine. And I think one of the common things is that people think that IVF is a guarantee. Do you find that?

Mike berkley (03:17)

Of course, of course. I mean, it's, you know, our lives as acupuncturists and herbalists are very interesting, gratifying and ungratifying. I'll give you an example. This has happened to you. It's happened to any acupuncturist listening. Patient does four failed IUIs and three failed IVFs.

Michelle (03:18)

Yeah.

Right. Right, or it helped me relax through the process.

Mike berkley (03:43)

And then you work with the patient for three months and she does an IVF and she gets pregnant and has a baby. And then I've had patients more than one say, well, you know, it's possible that that what you did helped me. And I'm like, yeah, it's possible, you know.

Exactly, exactly. I love that one. You know, it helped me relax. So I think that I'm I think more and more individuals more more couples more women more men are becoming aware of the the efficacy and the value of You know complementary medicine or integrated medicine acupuncture herbs You know diet In the context of fertility enhancement

Michelle (04:16)

Mm -hmm.

Mike berkley (04:34)

And I often say to patients, I say, listen, you can go to the best reproductive endocrinologist in the world. I don't care who it is, but that person cannot improve your egg quality. They cannot improve your lining quality and they cannot rectify your husband's sperm DNA fragmentation. I can. So therefore,

Michelle (04:37)

Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm. Right.

Mike berkley (05:03)

We should work as a team. And I'm saying this to the patient, but I'm also saying it to society. And I'm saying it to reproductive endocrinologist. The best type of medicine is integrative medicine. You can do something I can't. I can do something you can't. Let's do this. Let's try again.

Michelle (05:05)

Right, 100%. Everybody has their blind spots, you know, and their strengths. I mean, we don't have the technology, we can't go in there and extract eggs. Right.

Mike berkley (05:32)

That's right, but who cares? You know, a good car mechanic can fix an engine, but it doesn't mean he can make an engine. So it doesn't matter that we don't have the technology. It doesn't matter that we're not reproductive endocrinologists. What matters is, is that for an IVF to work, you need four things. You need a good egg, a good sperm.

Michelle (05:36)

Right.

Mm -hmm. Right.

Mike berkley (06:00)

And so the reproductive endocrinologist cannot offer a patient good eggs and good sperm and good line. In fact, there are patients that come to me and they say they have a five millimeter lining and the doctor will give them either transvaginal Viagra or something called Trentol and Neupogen. And these medications will thicken the lining and they still have implantation failure. Why?

because a thick lining or within normal limits lining, a 10 millimeter lining doesn't convey that it's a good lining.

Michelle (06:31)

Definitely. And of course I've asked this question a lot. I love asking questions that I can answer them too, but obviously every acupuncturist says it in a different way. So,

Mike berkley (06:38)

So I think that as acupuncturists and herbalists, we have a lot to offer a patient suffering with infertility for sure.

Michelle (07:00)

I'd love for you to talk about how acupuncture and herbals can help somebody who's trying to conceive.

Mike berkley (07:08)

Sure. So I'm gonna kinda speak around a little bit, but it'll all make sense in the end. So blood is nothing other than a taxicab. Blood is nothing other than a messenger service. When we inhale, the oxygen gets into the blood and the body is oxygenated through blood flow.

When we eat food, our nutrient products get into the bloodstream and nutrients are disseminated through the blood. FSH and LH coming from the pituitary get to the ovaries via the blood. And so I'm gonna step back for a second and say what I say to patients.

You have a heart that's beating. It's disseminating blood throughout your body. But there are two things that are happening. Number one, that dissemination of blood is generalized. And number two, you're 40 years old. And your blood flow is not as good as it was when you were 20. And if you're not 40, you're 37 or you're 36. Same case. Your blood flow is not as good generally as it was when you were running around in the playground at nine years old. You exercise less, you do less in general, I'm speaking.

And so now to acupuncture, what acupuncture does is it improves and elevates hemodynamics, which means blood flow. And when a patient says, well, my heart is doing that, though that's true, with the utilization of acupuncture, you're improving hemodynamics to a specific area, which is the ovaries.

Michelle (08:57)

Mm -hmm.

Mike berkley (08:58)

Blood, therefore, is you're increasing the delivery of oxygen, electrolytes, nutrients, and hormones to the ovarian milieu. Not only that, but you know when a taxi cab takes a passenger to the airport and the passenger gets out, the taxi cab doesn't want to drive back to the city empty. They want to take a passenger back to the city.

It's a 45 minute trip from JFK to New York City to Manhattan. So they don't want to go back without a passenger. Well, blood is the same thing. So when you're increasing blood flow to the ovaries, you're delivering these essential products, but the blood is also picking up debris. What is debris? Debris are dead cells. Now, of course, during this conversation, both of us have lost a billion cells. They've died and they've regenerated. But what happens to the cells that die? Well, they get emitted through the sweating, exhalation, urination, defecation. This is how we get rid of toxins in the body. But again, because our digestive functions are not necessarily great, because our hemodynamics are not necessarily what they could be, by stimulating blood flow to the ovaries, you're delivering the good and helping to take back the bad which is the dead cells. So you're actually taking this garden that's not getting a lot of rain and it's not getting a lot of sunshine because the trees are like this over the garden. So when you're doing acupuncture herbs, you're cutting down the tops of these trees and you're going like this. So the garden is now getting all this sunshine and the rain is able to hit the flowers. And in a month, the flowers are joyous, beautiful, smiling, looking at everybody and winking at them and saying, hey, I'm a beautiful rose, look at me.

And so that's kind of, I think that the analogy or the metaphor is to how acupuncture improves egg quality. And the same is true with sperm quality. You're causing improved and increased hemodynamics to the testes and the same thing happens as with the ovaries. So it's the testes and the ovaries are really homologues. They both do the same thing. One creates eggs, one creates sperm and...

Michelle (11:09)

Mm -hmm.

Mike berkley (11:23)

…stimulating blood there, we're improving the quality of the contents. Now let's talk about herbal medicine. So herbal medicine is much more sophisticated, in my humble opinion, than acupuncture. Acupuncture is very sophisticated and very effective in all areas, whether you have pain or infertility. But the thing about herbal medicine is that you can construct an herbal formula that specifically deals...with the overall presentation of the patient, in my opinion, in a more powerful, efficacious manner. So for example, if you have a patient with polycystic ovarian syndrome who's five foot five and weighs 250 pounds and she's 40 years old, and then you have a PCOS patient who's five foot five and she's 29 years old and she's 110 pounds, they're both suffering with...

Michelle (11:56)

you

Mike berkley (12:23)

lack of proper menstruation, they're both suffering with infertility. So when you use herbal medicine on those patients, you're not just treating PCOS, treating this woman who's 250 pounds, this woman who's 120 pounds, this woman who's 40 years old, this woman who's 29 years old. So the herbs are very pinpoint accurate in what they do and how they work. And...

The beauty of herbal medicine is that one can create a very specific formula for this patient. So this patient is suffering with infertility, but she also has constipation and chronic headaches and...

Michelle (12:56)

you

Mike berkley (13:05)

She's got low back pain. So you can give her herbs to deal with all of that stuff. And so acupuncture is efficacious in the same manner. So really, what's the difference? So there's a couple of differences. As I said earlier, in the perspective of herbal medicine, you're taking it orally. It's internal medicine. It's having an effect on the organs, on the follicles.

Michelle (13:16)

you

Mike berkley (13:34)

the ovaries, on the testes, et cetera, et cetera. But I'm going to say something that's even more interesting. Let's say that you or I had a really bad headache. And we said to our partners, honey, I have a splitting headache. Could you please massage my shoulders and massage my head? It would really make me feel better. And our partners say, of course, of course. And they stand. I'm sitting in this chair and my wife comes.

Michelle (13:46)

you

Mike berkley (14:03)

me and starts to massage me and she's massaging my head and maybe in a half an hour I feel better. Let's retell that story. The same exact scenario except before my wife starts to work on me I take three Advil. Now what happens is instead of my headache dissipating in 30 minutes it dissipates in 15 minutes. Why?

Michelle (14:22)

you

Mike berkley (14:32)

because I'm being treated from the outside in, which is the massage, and I'm also being treated from the inside out, which is a three Advil. And so when you use these together, you're increasing the efficacy of the treatment. And so I think using acupuncture nerves together, they do similar things, but they also do different things, and they certainly potentiate each other's efficacy and power.

Michelle (15:00)

Yeah, for it's very complimentary. Now, typically somebody comes to you and says, I'm starting IVF in a month. Sometimes I'm like, okay, I kind of wish you came here a couple of months before. So for people who are listening, if they want to prepare for IVF or really just prepare their body and their egg quality, how early...

should they come to you? Like how long does it take really for everything to take effect?

Mike berkley (15:30)

So it's a great question. So again, I'm going to talk about sperm and egg. Again, the similarity is quite fascinating. It takes three months for a spermatogonia, an immature sperm, to reach a mature sperm. And it takes three months for a primordial follicle, which is...speck of dust to turn into a 20 millimeter follicle. It is the 20 millimeter follicle that the egg is retrieved from. So three months before a transfer is the, you know, is the gold standard. It's the best thing to do. But what I will say to patients, because I get this kind of situation all the time, is listen, you're having a cycle, you're having a transfer next month. That's okay. Let's start tomorrow.

Yeah, but you just told me it takes three months. No, no, no, no, I understand. But let's start tomorrow. I'm going to tell you why. If you do the transfer and it works, you've thrown out a couple of hundred dollars on some sessions. So what? I'm going to continue to treat you twice a week for 13 weeks to help prevent miscarriage. Why for 13 weeks? Because 90 % of miscarriages occur viable for the 12th week. In the event, in the most unfortunate event,

Michelle (16:29)

you

Mike berkley (16:52)

that the cycle fails. We've already started treating you now. So then in the subsequent cycle or the cycle subsequent to that, you'll have much better egg quality. You know, I don't know if you know Warren Buffett. Warren Buffett is one of the greatest investors in the history of America. And somebody said to him one time, Mr. Buffett, when is the best time to invest in the stock market? And he said, today.

And the point of the story is you can't really time the market. Invest if it's high, invest if it's low, dollar cost average. Invest 100 bucks every month for the rest of your life and you'll be okay. And so that's kind of like this. Invest in the treatment even though your transfer isn't a month. Doesn't work out? Okay, we've still improved follicular quality. Does work out? It's all good. I'm gonna continue to treat you twice a week for 13 weeks. You're gonna have a baby.

Michelle (17:47)

Yeah. That's a good perspective for sure. yeah, I mean, what are some of the things that you see? Cause cause I feel like the way we're living right now is impacting our bodies in so many ways. And Chinese medicine, really the heart of it is living in accordance with nature, living in accordance with our own nature. And what happens is when we live outside of that and against our normal flow, that's when we start to get patterns and symptoms. So living in New York, I remember having a lot of really kind of like climbing an uphill battle because it is go, go, go. And so some of the things that I tell people who are not close to here, wanted to get coaching calls is even getting a grounding matter somehow finding ways to living in more flow. And what are some of the things that you see?

Mike berkley (18:43)

So I think everything that you just said is true, real and valid. However, I'd like to say that unfortunately, and remember, this is to the listening audience. This is my opinion only. I do feel it's next to impossible to get to one's nature. I do think it's next to impossible to be really settled, really like, able to exhale. Why do I say this? I say this because the world is at war, because there is intense poverty, there's joblessness, there's crime, there's all kinds of negative things. Of course there's many beautiful things, but there's many negative things. And so how can people possibly exhale?

So it's very difficult to become kind of, you know, one with nature and one with yourself and this kind of thing. I do think, however, that even though it's difficult to achieve, that the achieving is not the goal. The trying is the goal. The journey is the goal. One will probably never reach the destination, but it's okay because through the journey one's psychic and mental and emotional and physical health can improve. So even though I don't see a path to ultimate improvement, I don't see a path to ultimate health, I do think that there is a mind -body connection for sure. It's completely unassailable. And I think that people, I don't really get involved with this kind of thing too much in my own practice. I'm very, very clinical, but that doesn't mean that I don't totally embrace what you're saying. I think people should do yoga. I think they should meditate. Listen, I'll tell you an example of exactly, I'll put a patient in the room and I'll come to take the patient out and she's laying on the table with the cell phone.

You know, this is terribly destructive to the patient and he or she doesn't understand that. And I'll say to them, listen, you have 30 minutes of your entire life that you cannot be bothered by anybody. You can just be free. You're in this room on this table with beautiful music and it's a lovely room and you're taken care of here.

Michelle (20:53)

yeah.

Mike berkley (21:22)

put the phone down, man, and B, and it's really hard because people need that constant stimulation. I need it. The first thing I do when I wake up is I check my phone at 6 .15 in the morning. You know, it's mental illness. It's mental illness. It's craziness. But I do think that trying to be at peace is very important, not only for fertility,

Michelle (21:26)

Yeah.

It's an addiction for sure. Yeah.

Mike berkley (21:49)

but for life, for happiness, for joy. And so, as I say, I don't have meditation classes here or yoga classes here, but I strongly recommend that patients do engage in those activities. And I also think people should go to the gym. I think people should work out three days a week.

Michelle (22:09)

yeah.

Mike berkley (22:10)

and work out pretty hard. I don't mean hard like a professional athlete, but you know, don't get on the treadmill for five minutes. Like work. You know, listen, we have this thing called liver -chi stagnation, right? It means that, you know, the chi is stuck and people are stuck. And as a result of being stuck, inflammation occurs and they're angry and they get headaches and they're bitter. Guess what happens to the stuck chi when you move, when you exercise, the chi becomes unstuck and the

Michelle (22:37)

Right, yeah.

Mike berkley (22:39)

Exercise makes you feel better psycho -emotionally and when you feel better psycho -emotionally, you'll be better off physically

Michelle (22:47)

100%. I remember, so when I was in New York in the craziness just over firm, you know, that's the only way you can really survive there. You have to like show that you're a good quality employee. And I remember I found Acupuncture and what I found that it gave me is this flow.

in my life where I was able to still withstand and have that pressure, but I felt more resilient. It like, it increased my ability to adapt more than anything else has. And that was one of the things that I was so amazed by. But then it really made me realize whole beings that have so many different aspects to ourselves and how one...

part, if we work on our own energetic frequency and chi, it impacts our life and it impacts our how we can think and how we feel.

Mike berkley (23:47)

I agree with you. You know, another problem that I see quite frequently is, you know, there were two kinds of patients. There are patients that are very self -aware, and they exercise and they meditate and they do yoga and they eat properly.

And then there are patients that they may not be overweight, but they don't eat well. You know, they drink Coca -Cola and they eat French fries and listen, guess what? There's nothing wrong with drinking a Coca -Cola and having French fries, you know, once every two months, once a month. It's all good. Chinese medicine is about yin and yang. What does yin and yang mean? Balance. It's all good. But when you have French fries and burger and ice cream tonight, you smoke a joint tomorrow and you, you know, you don't go to the gym for three days. You know, this just...

Michelle (24:07)

Mm -hmm.

Mike berkley (24:36)

it's just going to have negative attributes. It's going to create negative outcomes, certainly physically. So I try to encourage patients to eat properly and I try to give them some type of helpful diet plan if I think they need it. But I think nutrition and diet are very important for health in general. And certainly in the world of infertility, many of the

Many of the causative factors can really be, I don't want to get too technical, but they can kind of originate with what's called free radicals, reactive oxidative species, and these things cause inflammation in the body. And if you have inflammation in the uterus or inflammation in the testes, inflammation in the testes kills sperm. Inflammation in the uterus is going to kill an embryo. So we need to be careful about what we're eating from the inflammatory point of view.

You know, the inflammation point.

Michelle (25:37)

Right. Yeah. Gut health is everything. interesting how the spleen and stomach are center. That's their location. The direction is center because, and it really is, it's such a symbol of how important it is in creating blood. And actually speaking of blood flow that you were talking about before, did you ever see, there was something on Instagram, somebody took a sample of blood before and after acupuncture.

it was shocking. Like you could see it literally move everything that you learn in textbook about how it improves chi and flow. You could see the blood cells being a little bit more stuck together from the before. They're a little more stuck together and very slow moving. The after the blood cells not only are not stuck together, but they're more round.

Mike berkley (26:30)

Interesting.

Michelle (26:30)

They're more round and they're moving fast and flowing. They're not right next to each other. It's crazy. And that was mind boggling. And I actually, so I shared it on my Instagram. I'll forward you the link. And I shared it on my Instagram. And interestingly enough, I had a lot of acupunctures, because we all learn this in theory. That's the theory. We don't really often see this with our own eyes. So I think that a lot of

Mike berkley (26:45)

Please.

Michelle (27:00)

acupuncturists that saw this were like blown away. They're like, my God, this is exactly what it says in the textbook. And to actually see it with your own eyes is amazing.

Mike berkley (27:09)

So I'm going to share a little story with you that's completely apropos of the story that you just told

I'm going to tell you a story that's a little bit different than what you told me, but it's the exact same outcome. So about 10 years ago or 12 years ago, there was a study done. First of all, let me talk about the uterine artery impedance index. The uterine artery impedance index is an index that determines the flow through of blood through the uterine artery.

Uterine artery at its end point has branches that come out and enervate the ovaries. So the ovaries are getting their blood through the uterine artery. And so the more patent and effective the uterine artery is, the more blood will get to the ovaries. And so there was this little study done.

where they did a transvaginal ultrasound with a color doppler. And for the listeners who don't understand that, you know, when you have an ultrasound and the doctor looks at the monitor, it's all black and white and gray. But with a color doppler, the monitor is color. You can see all color. It's not just gray. And so they did these transvaginal ultrasounds with a color doppler to determine the uterine artery impedance index. The higher the index,

the lower the amount of flow through of blood through the uterine artery. So they took a bunch of women, they did this and they wrote down the uterine artery impedance index numbers. and by the way, when they did the transvaginal ultrasound, you could either see no blood or just a little blood in the uterus, in the uterine lining. Then acupuncture was given to the patient and...

Michelle (28:37)

Mm hmm. Mm hmm.

Mike berkley (29:00)

25 minutes after acupuncture was done, they repeated the transvaginal ultrasound with a color Doppler and two things happened. The uterine artery impedance index dropped like three or four points and you could actually see a red line right across the uterus. So you could actually perfectly well see evidence of enhanced blood flow into the uterine environment which

you know, really I'm talking about the ovarian environment, but you don't see it on the ovaries, you see it on the uterus. And it was fantastic. So it's exactly what you're saying, a little bit of a different study, but the same outcome.

Michelle (29:43)

more specific to fertility. Yeah, that's amazing. Wow, incredible. So fascinating. I mean, it is really fascinating when we get to see with our own eyes, something that has been, you know, taught for thousands of years, and to actually see science and you know, I look also housing the mind

Mike berkley (29:45)

Absolutely. Yeah. Pardon.

Michelle (30:04)

that also reflect that in modern science, but the heart math and the heart -brain coherence that they're finding is pretty much proving the whole idea of the heart housing the mind.

Mike berkley (30:04)

you

So I don't even, I don't know anything about this. This is all brand new news to me, but it sounds really fascinating. I love.

Michelle (30:22)

Yeah.

It is. And this is why I love talking to acupuncturists. Cause you just told me something that I did not, I thought I heard about it, but I didn't hear it in that detail. And I'm learning so much talking you. So this is why I love coming together with fellow acupuncturists because I always, always learn something new.

Mike berkley (30:44)

as do I from you, thank

Michelle (30:46)

of course I could talk to you for

But I would love for you to

can people find you or find more about you?

Mike berkley (30:53)

Yeah, thank you so course, I'm Mike Berkeley and my website is berkeleycenter .com, which is B -E -R -K -L -E -Ycenter .com. And I'm happy to speak to anybody, answer anybody's questions. There's no charge for that. And I'm a plain, simple, down to earth guy. And I'm just here to help people.

Michelle (30:55)

Yeah.

Yeah. You got the New Yorker mentality that I miss that I'll be honest, the culture of New York, I really miss since I've moved. So it kind of brings me back home to like, you know, the accent and all that. So Mike, it was great meeting you. I really enjoyed our conversation and thank you so much for coming on today.

Mike berkley (31:35)

Well, I want to say it was an absolute pleasure and an honor to meet you. I enjoyed our conversation so much and thank you so much again for having me as a guest. I'm grateful.

EP 282 Can the Bacteria in Your Mouth Cause Fertility Challenges

Dr. Katie Lee is a dentist, speaker, author, and coach who lives in Aurora, Colorado. Dr. Lee graduated from University of Illinois at Chicago in 2010 and was an owner-partner in over 80 DSO supported dental practices throughout the US and served as Clinical Partner overseeing 5 states. Currently, she consults for health technology companies and provides implant education for general dentists. Dr. Lee has two passions in her profession: dentistry itself and making other dentists successful. Her passion about the oral systemic health link comes from personal experience. Dr. Lee was involved in an ATV accident as a teenager, which left her without many teeth and rendered her jaw immobile. Dr. Lee experienced how oral health affects systemic health and the benefits of dental implants. Her first-hand journey in recovering from the effects of dental trauma led her to specialize her career on the mouth-body connection® and dental implants. Dr. Lee searches for proven technologies that improve clinical outcomes and the patient experience and loves to educate her peers on those technologies. Dr. Lee authored a book entitled Saved By the Mouth to educate patients and clinicians on the importance of oral health. Dr. Lee has won many accolades, including Top 40 under 40 Dentists in America, and International Woman of the Year in Dentistry. She has been featured on local Fox and NBC news stations discussing the importance of oral health.

https://www.instagram.com/katieleedds/

 https://www.facebook.com/katieleedds

 For more information about Michelle, visit www.michelleoravitz.com

 The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

Transcript:

Michelle

Michelle: [00:00:00] Welcome to the podcast, Dr. Lee.

Katie: Thanks. I'm really excited to be here.

Michelle: I'm so excited to have you on actually, this is a first, I have never spoken to a dentist on this podcast, but it is such an important topic because there's such a correlation between inflammation in the mouth and also unexplained infertility. And I'm very excited to get started before we get started. I would love for you to give us a little bit of a background on yourself, how you got into the work that you do.

Katie: Sure. Absolutely. Thanks for having me on. I feel honored that I'm, I'm the first. Hopefully, I don't mess it up for the rest of us dentists out there. My journey into dentistry was. Of tragedy. So when I was in high school, about 14 years old, I was involved in a ATV four wheeler accident where I crashed into a telephone pole headfirst without a helmet on, broke every bone in my face from my eyebrows down and naturally, or I [00:01:00] guess as expected, lost a ton of teeth and my jaws were wired shut immediately, even though I had lots of teeth that were displaced and broken.

Katie: And, they were wired shut for two months. I'm I couldn't eat and so I was on a liquid diet and My family didn't really know anything about nutrition. So I was Having pudding jello ice cream, you know with Hershey's syrup box mashed potatoes You know all the things that you should not eat to be healthy or maintain your teeth And so I just started developing a ton of dental infection And, , that combined with not being able to eat nutritious foods, you know, my body really started shutting down.

Katie: , I lost a ton of weight, my liver enzymes spiked, my kidneys started shutting down. And so I learned from a very early age just how much your oral health affects. Not only your mental and emotional health, but your, your physical health as well. And, you know, it was nine surgeries in four years, , that it [00:02:00] took to reconstruct my face and my jaw.

Katie: And then once that was done and only then was I able to my teeth and, and finally replace the missing teeth and fix my smile. So that really. Got me interested in what I do. And then once I got into dentistry, you know, I started going down this journey of oral systemic health. And from a personal experience, I had a lot of fertility issues.

Katie: I went through about six years in fertility treatment. And so just really started diving into, you know, how can. How does the mouth affect this and what can I do as a dentist to help other people?

Michelle: Yeah, I mean it's definitely something that I think a lot of people do not I don't want to really correlate, but let's, let's actually really break this down because like , how can your teeth impact your body? 

Katie: From a high level? Start there? Yeah. So, , there's a couple different ways that the teeth and gums are really affected to the rest of the body. And, the first way that I About is bacteria. So our body [00:03:00] has types of microbiomes and the first real microbiome that we get or we're introduced to is the one in our mouth and we get that, you know, we used to always think that babies were sterile.

Katie: We know that they are introduced to some bacteria when in utero first microbiome that we get introduced to is through the mom's vaginal canal. And then Through breast milk and from family members when we're kissing, , and, you know, eating and drinking after them, we get this whole microbiome and the microbiome in our mouth is super important because it's what establishes and feeds our gut microbiome.

Katie: And so we know that when we develop dysbiosis in the mouth, what actually happens is that bacteria then go through our gum tissue, or we swallow 80 trillion bacteria a day. And so the bacteria that are in our mouth. We'll go to other places in our body that they're not supposed to be and start to cause damage.

Katie: So that's one way that the mouth affects it. And then the other way is through inflammation. So again, when we have these foreign invaders in our mouth, what we know [00:04:00] is that our body elicits an immune response. And that immune response, unfortunately, doesn't stay localized to our mouth. It will break down our gum tissue, making our gum tissue permeable, again, allowing what's in the mouth to get to the rest of the body.

Katie: But it also triggers an inflammatory response in other parts of the body, too. And this becomes really important in fertility, because that's when people can start to develop things like endometriosis, pelvic inflammatory disease, and things like

Michelle: yeah. And also, as you're talking about this, I'm thinking about all these like alcohol rinses, you know, mouthwashes. So that's huge because people are like, oh, I want to get rid of my mouth bacteria because I want to really clean mouth. So like, But that messes up the good bacteria. So talk about that. I mean, you know more about this than I do

Katie: Yeah, no, I mean, that is such a good point. I'm so glad that you brought that up, because The way I was trained, even 10, you know, back in, I graduated in 2010, you know, we were [00:05:00]taught the, the more it burns, the better it's cleaning, right? Like you want something in there that's burning. You want something that's 99 kills 99.

Katie: 9 percent of all bacteria. But what we know is that's actually really bad. And to your point, , those types of products are not selective. So they're killing everything that's there. The good and the bad, when really we want to control the bad, support the good. and kind of let the body do its own thing.

Katie: The other thing that's damaging about alcohol mouthwashes is that it dries out your tissues. And we know that when you have dry mouth or dry tissues, the bad bacteria love to go to those surfaces and take up shop. And it really supports them colonizing and growing their little, , microbial communities.

Katie: So we want to have saliva. Saliva protects our teeth and gums from bad bacteria. So an alcohol containing product is not good for our health.

Michelle: Now what does a person do if they were a c section

Katie: Yeah. So, you know, there's lots of things that people can do throughout their life to [00:06:00]support their microbiome, you know, C section babies. We know that unfortunately they, they don't get exposed to the. you know, good vaginal bacteria during birth, but there's lots of things that they can do to support their microbiome.

Katie: So I'm a, you know, people always talk about taking probiotics and probiotics are great. And what probiotics do is they're actually going to put bacteria into the body. , so it'll, it'll help replenish the bacteria that is missing from the gut. What people also don't understand is that they need to feed the good bacteria that they already have.

Katie: So you cannot forget to take. Prebiotics, eat prebiotic food, take prebiotic, supplements. That way you can feed and help nourish the bacteria that's already there.

Michelle: Yeah,

Katie: We're introduced to so many bacteria every single minute of the day. You know, I, I wouldn't be as concerned once you get into adulthood about having a c section or being a c section baby because by that time you've been exposed to really everything that you need in your life.

Katie: At that point it's just about nourishing and keeping it in balance.

Michelle: Yeah. For sure.[00:07:00] It's interesting cause I was actually at, , microbiome labs. So are you familiar with them? So they actually have an enzyme like mouth. It's like a mint freshener, but it's like an enzyme one. And there was a guy who was talking about oral health. It was a presenter and he was talking about that and I thought that was really interesting and he also talked about Mouth breathers people who go to sleep and yeah So let's talk about that because that's really important and it's a big thing now people actually tape their mouth

Katie: I know, it's just that you don't. Yeah, thank goodness for Instagram, you know, because you'll see someone on Instagram taping their mouth and all of a sudden everyone wants to tape their mouth, so this is really important because You know, there's a really good book out there for people to read called Breath by James Nestor I don't know if you've heard of it.

Katie: A patient actually recommended it to me And it basically talks about that over time because of our high processed diet We've gone from eating You know, super fibrous, tough [00:08:00] foods to eating high processed carbohydrates and softer foods. And because of that, the structures of our skull and jaws have actually, , shortened or shrink.

Katie: And because we have smaller jaws, it's why we no longer can. Make room for our wisdom teeth. So most people actually have to extract their wisdom teeth now. And what we know is that the smaller our jaws are, the less room in our mouth for our tongue and our airways actually start to shrink. So what happens is when we go to bed at night.

Katie: our tongue falls to the back of our mouth and our airway collapses and we essentially start choking on our tongue. And so we start to breathe through our mouth. And the problem with this is our nose is, is such a, an incredible organ. It's designed with. millions and trillions and billions of of cilia in there to filter out the pollutants in the air.

Katie: But when we're not breathing through our nose, we're taking in all of that dirty air through our mouth and it goes straight into our oral [00:09:00] cavity. We're introducing new, , microbes into our oral cavity that disrupts our microbiome. We're drying out our tissues. And again, we talked about dry mouth leads to increased bacteria formation, increased plaque formation, but then all that dirty air is also getting into our lung system, , which is not good and will trigger an inflammatory response.

Katie: And so people don't realize that mouth breathing. causes or exacerbates allergies, , it also causes oral dysbiosis in the microbiome and therefore gut dysbiosis. And so one of the things that people need to do is to retrain themselves, how to breathe through their nose. So really great way to do that is by mouth taping.

Katie: And a lot of patients will say, well, doc, I, you know, I can't breathe through my nose even during the day. And I'll say, well, you've got to retrain yourself how to use that part of your body that you haven't been using forever. So I encourage them to start taping during the day, you know, maybe just do 15 minutes at a time and slowly the nose will start to open up and work again.[00:10:00]

Katie: Now, if someone has something more severe, like sleep apnea, they absolutely need to get a sleep test, , to get that diagnosis and then get treatment because. Sleep apnea is where you're actually choking at night. You're not breathing. You're waking up more than five times per hour because your oxygen is desaturating more than, more than 10%.

Katie: And so those people need supplemental treatment such as a CPAP or an oral appliance or something like that. But sleep apnea is horrible for your brain. It kills brain cells. It's really hard on your heart and it's fatal if it's left untreated. It's just a matter of when. So I'm really glad that you brought that up.

Michelle: that's actually really scary I do know that there's a correlation with weight gain And sleep apnea. So like, it's interesting because it's the whole thing. Like if you're taking care of your body and you're healthy, that impacts all the other things in your life, like your sleep.

Katie: Definitely. Sleep apnea, what happens is when you, you know, when you're asleep and you stop breathing, what [00:11:00] happens is your body sends this rush of adrenaline to your brain stem to wake you up enough to take a breath. When you're doing that, you're stressing your body out, so cortisol is released.

Katie: Cortisol causes systemic inflammation if it's released at high levels over time. , we also know that it, , lowers our insulin

Michelle: Right. And then we gain weight because of that.

Katie: yes, making us crave carbohydrates, making us gain weight. And so a lot of people have probably noticed that, and I, I notice this all the time. If I don't get a good night's sleep, I, all I want the next day is carbs, right?

Katie: Carbs,

Michelle: It's the quickest energy.

Katie: I want. So it is crucial.

Michelle: Yeah, for sure. I mean, cause that's what it is when you're tired, you want quick energy and the body knows instinctively that you'll get it with carbs.

Katie: Absolutely.

Michelle: course, that's not a very good source of energy. It's not, , an efficient one.

Katie: Yeah, you run out of it very quickly.

Michelle: And then other questions that I have is over brushing.

Michelle: So some people think, okay, after everything that I eat, I'm going to brush my [00:12:00]teeth. What are your thoughts on that?

Katie: Yeah, so there's a balance there, right? And what people want to try and avoid is brushing immediately after eating and drinking. Because we know that after you eat and drink, the pH in the mouth is going to go down. So what happens is we put something in our mouth, the mouth is the beginning of our digestive system.

Katie: And so our body releases an enzyme in the mouth called amylase. And this amylase is an enzyme that starts to break down the carbohydrates in our mouth. So in order to do that, the pH has to drop. The pH also drops just because most of the stuff we put in our mouth is acidic anyway. And so you combine acidic food and drink with an acidic pH from, from the amylase secretion, and you're setting yourself up for a disaster of erosion and cavities.

Katie: And so if you're going to eat or drink something, I always recommend to wait at least 30 minutes, before you brush. But people absolutely need to brush minimum twice a day. I mean that's like non negotiable I always recommend morning and night [00:13:00] if they can get one more in there during the day. That's great But if they can at least do two minutes morning and night, I think people are going to be pretty satisfied with

Michelle: yeah, for sure. Now my other question is mercury fillings.

Katie: yes

Michelle: Yeah, let's talk about that because for a while, oh, it was like no big deal and now they're finding that it is. So it's kind of like brushed off a lot of times. I remember going to the dentist and asking for the white filler and, and he was kind of giving me pushback on that.

Michelle: Yeah.

Katie: And there's, unfortunately, you know, a lot of dentists out there that still believe that way. , and, you know, I hope your audience doesn't crucify me with this because I don't believe this. But their, their mindset is, and it is true, mercury fillings are stronger than the white composite fillings.

Katie: Also, they're less technique sensitive when putting them in so if you're putting in a white composite filling little dental nerd out here You have to have everything completely Isolated [00:14:00]otherwise the white filling won't bond to the tooth and the filling will fail really quickly and the patient will get decay right underneath that Filling when you're packing in the mercury fillings.

Katie: I mean, you're literally just

Katie: It's called an amalgam, so it's an amalgamation of all this material. And so it doesn't matter if there's saliva. It doesn't matter if there's blood. , because it's not bonding to the two structures. So the dentists don't have to be as careful and think about it. I mean you're working in the mouth where there's tons of saliva and bleeding and things like that.

Katie: So they're much Less technique sensitive to put in and they are stronger. , now the downside is they're filled with all kinds of things that are terrible for you. And we know, you know, think if you think about a mercury thermometer, right? There's a very small amount of mercury in that thermometer. But if a thermometer breaks in school, they shut the entire school down and call in a hazmat team to come clean it up, or a biohazardment team to come clean it up.

Katie: Yet we're plugging this stuff into people's teeth. And the hard [00:15:00] thing about teeth, or the thing that people need to understand is that teeth are organs. And they have a blood supply, and they have a nerve supply, and to put that, that type of material, especially mercury, near blood supply that's connected to the rest of the body, or nerves that are connected to the rest of the body, in my opinion, is dangerous, you know, if we just use a little bit of common sense.

Katie: And so I don't like mercury fillings. And now we're left with a bunch of patients that have them in their head Now, what do we do to remove them because you can't just go in and start Drilling them out and creating all this mercury vapor, right? Because it's not good for the dentist or the patient

Michelle: So there's a biological dentists that specifically specialize in removing them. What are your thoughts on that?

Katie: I I think it's really important to Go to someone that understands how to remove them correctly correctly. I would not consider myself You know the gold standard biologic dentist, you know, and the fact that I do all zirconia [00:16:00] implants and things like that But I definitely believe in safe amalgam removal because it's actually more dangerous for the provider who's removing the, the mercury filling and the assistant who's suctioning everything out than it is for the patient because we're creating all this vapor that's coming out of the mouth.

Katie: Sure, it's coming into your body, but we're the ones that it's getting on our skin. You know, it's settling up next to our thyroid. So a lot of dentists have thyroid issues, myself included. This happened to me early on in my career when I started learning about this, they have fertility issues. , and so it's really important that dentists understand how to remove them safely.

Katie: So I, I definitely, if I was having mercury fillings removed, I would make sure my dentist knew how to do it appropriately.

Michelle: Yeah. Oh my god. You're giving such good information I really appreciate it because I think these are all questions that people have and you're giving a very well rounded very balanced Information

Katie: I always say, you know, there's amalgam dentists, right? Like the traditional You know, every day dentist , and then there's the biologic dentist that do everything on the opposite end of the spectrum.

Katie: I would say I'm [00:17:00] over halfway to the biologic dentist, but not all the way quite there.

Michelle: Well, I guess it's kind of like traditional medicine.

Katie: Yes. Traditional medicine. Yes,

Michelle: It's, it's a little bit more of a holistic way to look at

Katie: Yes. Yeah,

Michelle: , and of course, even with what I do, even though I specialize in alternative medicine, I'm very much in the world of Western medicine because a lot of my patients need sometimes like conventional medical care 

Michelle: so it's nice to have a balance of both.

Katie: Yeah. I still, you know, I joke all the time. I still believe in science, right? , I still do testing. I still do modalities. There's a time and place for everything. I just think we need to be a little bit smarter about how we approach, you know, healthcare and dentistry and, , not use bad materials that we know are horrible for us.

Michelle: 100%. What I'm finding actually is a lot of people in my world are very much now into studies and science. So there is a bridge that's coming together. And I see a lot of, REs that I have developed great relationships with are [00:18:00] very open to what I do to help their patients. So I'm starting to see this shift of everybody coming together, which I love.

Katie: That makes me happy because, you know, I did infertility treatment for six years and I saw some of the best specialists in the country. Not one asked them about my oral health. And there's so much research out there about how oral health affects infertility and you know Thank goodness. My oral health was fine.

Katie: Of course. I checked it before, you know, I went and did all this stuff But you know, it was just kind of shocking to me how siloed and hyper focused they practiced, you know, and just looking at the reproductive system and nothing else

Michelle: Oh, yeah. And even in Spain, they'll check even the vaginal microbiome, which I find so interesting because there's a correlation between that being off and then fail transfers. So they do that like automatically and it increases their success rates and they'll give them like vaginal, Probiotics

Katie: I love that

Michelle: And, and that's like a thing here. It's not so as we [00:19:00] learn, I mean, and then of course, when I read it starts with egg, that's what really got me into the whole teeth thing and then seeing the science with that. And now, like, even for my intake form, I always have a section that talks about like, have you ever had dental work done because it's important, but you know, you learn, it's not something that I knew like automatically, but as I got more into it.

Michelle: I learned. Another thing that I wanted to ask you, what are your thoughts about fluoride? Because I know this is a very hot topic.

Katie: Hot topic right, you know, I think I think it's a, another conversation like mercury, right? I think for a very long time, we had this major issue of, we call it caries in the dental field, which is just cavities. And so we had, you know, dental decay is like the number one disease in the world. And we had all these.

Katie: You know, kids and people that had rampant decay and instead of looking at diet and microbiome, which is what we should have done, we said, okay, well, let's create some sort of chemical or product [00:20:00] that we can do to treat right. We're treating the symptom, not the original form of what's causing it. And so they created this.

Katie: But what we now know is that when you. swallow it and you ingest it systemically, it's not good for you. It's a, it's a neurotoxin. And there's so many, I think there's so many other ways that we can combat dental decay where we can get around using fluoride. Now, if I have a patient that comes in that's refusing to do any of these other things that I'm talking about, and they're a teenager, and they have rampant decay everywhere and I know they're not going to make any lifestyle, nutritional, or oral habit modifications.

Katie: May I put some fluoride on their teeth? Sure, but it's going to be something that's isolated that they're not going to ingest and swallow. My preference is to not use that because I know that even if I put a little bit in their mouth, it's still going to get in their system. But not treating someone with rampant decay and having Having them lose teeth because of it, or worse, develop an abscess, which we [00:21:00] know abscesses are horrible for our overall health.

Katie: To me, that's doing more harm than painting a little bit of fluoride on teeth. But I actually recommend to use products like Nanohydroxyapatite is awesome. It was developed for NASA a long, long time ago to help astronauts, , you know, to prevent them from, from getting decay. So if it's good enough for NASA, it's good enough for me, right?

Katie: So I love Nanohydroxyapatite. I love M. I. paste. , I also love arginine. Arginine is something that a lot of people don't know a ton about, but there's a ton of research out there showing that toothpaste that are high in arginine, like Tom's for example, , prevent tooth decay and also help treat tooth sensitivity.

Katie: So I think we have

Michelle: I love

Katie: so many great things out there that we could use in addition to, you know, making sure that we're balancing and nurturing our microbiome. Not eating Jolly Rancher is incredible.

Michelle: Yeah, exactly. My kids have been fluoride free. They don't get fluoride. They've been using fluoride free toothpaste. [00:22:00] They have never had cavity.

Katie: Amazing. Yeah, and they, and they should never need it, right? Our,

Michelle: They floss too.

Katie: Yeah, I mean, so there you go, right? And, but what people don't understand, and I would have patients come into my practice, and they would say like, well, I want fluoride free. And I'd say, okay, tell me about your diet. And it was breads and pastas and carbs and sugar and five cokes a day.

Katie: And they don't brush or floss their teeth. And they think oil pulling is going to solve everything. You know, and I'm like that, we can't do that, right? We need to, we need to intervene here. But if, someone takes a holistic approach to their oral health care, they should never need fluoride. And we know that our cavity causing bacteria really peaks and starts to decline in mid thirties.

Katie: And so if parents are healthy, Their kids are going to be healthy because you're number one modeling healthy lifestyle But number two you're transferring all of your microbiome to your kids And so another thing that people don't realize is that if a parent's mouth is Full of [00:23:00] cavities and gum disease the kids mouth is going to be full of it because you're sharing the same bacteria So good for you for you being healthy and then keeping your kids healthy, too.

Michelle: Thank you. I love how balanced this conversation is. It's amazing information. , I just love this because it's so important and it's, it's information that a lot of people just don't have access to, and it's not even like, sometimes it's not even knowing that you need to have access to certain information, but it's like.

Michelle: So important. And it could be like that one thing that people are not looking into when they're going through fertility treatments or just challenges overall,

Katie: Yeah, and we know that fertility treatment actually increases our inflammatory levels and increases the leakiness of our gum tissue. So if the mouth isn't healthy to start, or even if there's a little bit of dysbiosis going on, fertility treatment is just going to exacerbate it. So it's best to get it treated, you know, it's safe to do it during pregnancy, but it's always best to do it beforehand.

Michelle: Yeah, [00:24:00] for sure. So now, let's talk about Peelu gum. So you hear about Peelu gum, , that it's very good for your teeth. I just was wondering what your thoughts on it or if you know, like how it can impact

Katie: I actually don't know what that is.

Michelle: Oh, so Peelu is from a tree. It's the Peelu tree, I believe. And so they create this gum and it's sugar free, but it's like natural sweetener and it's supposed to actually help clean the teeth.

Katie: Okay.

Michelle: Yeah. So look into that. Yeah. If you find out anything, email me.

Katie: Yeah. Do you know what the sweetener is in it? Is it Xylitol or do you know what's in it? Yeah. So anything with Xylitol I love, , Xylitol is a natural sweetener that tricks the bacteria in your mouth to thinking that it's sugar because that's what the bacteria thrive on.

Katie: So the streptococcus mutans cavity causing bacteria in the mouth. What it does is it feeds off of sugar, so that can be sugar from candy or gum or, you know, breads, pastas, processed [00:25:00]carbohydrates, things like that. And then it excretes lactic acid on the teeth and that's what causes cavities. So xylitol, what it does, is the bacteria still thinks it's the sugar that it wants to eat, but once it eats it, it can't metabolize it, so it actually starts, from ingesting the xylitol.

Katie: So I love that. I'm gonna look that up. I haven't heard of that

Michelle: Yeah. They have it at Whole Foods. It's kind of like a more natural, you know, more natural, but it's supposed to be good for the teeth. Like I think that back in the day people used to chew on it. It was from trees and they would just chew on the actual whatever that was. But

Katie: which that's good too, because again, you're chewing on fibrous branches, right? And that's really good to stimulate saliva. It's really good to work on your jaw muscles and it's really good to develop the structural skeleton of the jaw on the face. So

Michelle: yeah, so maybe, a little gum chewing is okay.

Katie: Oh, I love gum

Michelle: strength.

Katie: recommend it all the time. Yeah. That's actually one of the things that I do recommend for my patients. , because you know, like I mentioned, it stimulates [00:26:00] saliva. Saliva is like our best protector that we have of our teeth because it neutralizes the pH. It actually coats our teeth in, You know, this like biofilm, right?

Katie: That's super healthy. So it protects the teeth from getting any bad bacteria stuck to it. So I'm a big fan of chewing gum. I think it's great. I recommend it for patients all the time. As long as it's sugar free, of

Michelle: Yeah. So this might be the ideal thing, the Peelu gum.

Katie: Yeah.

Michelle: I happen to love it. So it's kind of my guilty pleasure. I try not to do it too much cause I know like it's just, you don't want to wear down your teeth, but

Katie: should, I mean, you shouldn't, unless you're really grinding it, like you shouldn't be wearing down your

Michelle: right. So it's, it probably protects it anyway. Okay. Well that's good to know. Cause I

Katie: habit to do.

Michelle: I learned something new. It's nice to hear that you, that you actually promote that or that you support doing that. That's awesome. Wow, this is great information. I know you also have a book about the mouth.

Katie: Yes, so I wrote a book called Saved by the Mouth and it's all about how oral health [00:27:00]affects , virtually every organ system in the body. So we talk about brain health, heart health, cancer, fertility, of course, , aging, gut health. And so I wrote it from the, or I wrote it as if I was having a conversation with a patient because I wanted the information to be easily digestible.

Katie: And entertaining. And so every, as entertaining as

Michelle: I love that.

Katie: guess. And so every chapter actually talks about a situation that I had with a patient in my practice and them having to deal with whatever ailment they were dealing with. And so it's, I think it's really relatable. It's a quick read.

Katie: , and what I like about it too is it also goes over super simple daily modifications that people can do to improve their oral health and it doesn't have to be like a life changing makeover. They're just small things that you can do to improve health and then also what to ask your dentist for and you can go to any dentist and ask this.

Katie: It doesn't have to be a biologic dentist. You know, asking for things [00:28:00] like salivary testing, that's super important to know what's in your microbiome. Asking for your gums to be measured, so you actually know if you have a gum infection, things like that.

Michelle: Fantastic. And then you had also talked about how like when people are pregnant, sometimes people will say, don't do any dental work during that time. So talk about that. Cause that sounds like it's an important thing for

Katie: it is. It drives me insane. , and I was trained that way, by the way. So, you know, people aren't doing anything wrong. It's, it's, it's, you know, a product of the education system, unfortunately. But what we know is that when people have gum infection, it affects fertility in all sorts of ways. You know, it. It affects not only men, or not only women, but also men.

Katie: And We know that if once a woman is pregnant, if she has gum infection, she is 30 to 50 percent more likely to have a preterm birth, a low birth weight baby, or stillbirth. And we know that of [00:29:00] pregnant women, about 40 percent of them present with some sort of gum infection, whether it be gingivitis or gum disease.

Katie: And yet, 56 percent of pregnant women avoid the dentist. So, with those statistics alone, you know, it only makes sense that we need to be treating our oral health ideally before you even start to try and get pregnant because it will help you get pregnant. But, you know, I, I always get questions from patients being like, well, I'm pregnant now, you know, what do I do?

Katie: I, I feel like I might have something going on. Well, you absolutely should go to the dentist and get this treated because you want to try and avoid any sort of pregnancy complications and, and again, patients with perio infection gum disease or gingivitis are at much higher risk for, you know, having a complication with their baby.

Katie: And we know that if they get perio treatment while pregnant, their medical costs will reduce about 74%. So it's very important for the outcome of the pregnancy for the mom, but also for the outcome of the pregnancy for the baby.

Michelle: Wow. That is

Katie: the [00:30:00] dentist.

Michelle: important. Chinese

Katie: I don't get elective care now What I'm what I'm not saying is to go get veneers done.

Katie: Like so I don't want people to mishear me I'm saying, you know If you have a gum infection or tooth abscess, you absolutely should go get that treated while you're pregnant All elective care can can wait until after baby's here.

Michelle: Such a good point. Interestingly enough, Chinese medicine, the teeth are an expression of the kidneys. Chinese medicine, the kidneys are not what we look at in conventional medicine. The kidneys are actually what houses your reproductive essence and health. So it's so crazy how there is this correlation.

Michelle: I see this a lot. I see this quite often, actually, even with, the heart and brain different. Topic, but the heart houses the brain. This is how we're taught in Chinese medicine. And now they're seeing in heart math that there is this correlation between the heart and the brain. And there's a communication between the heart and the brain that it's measured.

Michelle: So it's interesting how science is [00:31:00] connecting, you know, you're connecting the dots between what was talked about in Chinese medicine. That may not. Initially makes sense, but then you're seeing in science things that are proving those things. So it's pretty wild that we're coming to this place where it's bridging.

Michelle: You're actually seeing the two connecting.

Katie: knew about the meridians in the teeth, but I did not know about the kidneys and fertility in teeth. That just like really blew my mind.

Michelle: Yeah, for sure. And it's interesting because as a child, you know, when they're, when they're little, you know, their, their body's developing and as they get closer to kind of reproductive years, that's when their real teeth come out. And then as, , the reproductive health declines and they're getting really old, the teeth fall out.

Michelle: So it's kind of like this connection to essence.

Katie: I just got goosebumps.

Michelle: Very fascinating. It's just, the human body is

Katie: And it, it's also tied with, with microbiome, right? Like when we're born, our microbiome [00:32:00] is the least diverse. , and the least strong. It's also the strongest, like what you say, in our reproductive year. So I always tell people, you know, when you're in your 20s, and, you know, you're invincible, and you can go out every night, and not get any sleep, and eat whatever you want, and never get sick, that's when your microbiome is the best.

Katie: But then also, as you age, our microbiome starts to deplete again, in not only numbers, but also diversity, and then that's when we die. So it's, it's funny how this all

Michelle: Yeah. Isn't that interesting? We have these like peaks and then valleys, so it's pretty wild.

Katie: that is wild.

Michelle: Yeah. So we're like building and then we're kind of sloping and going down. And then also I was curious to know your thoughts about like neem rinse or a tea tree, you know, instead of obviously alcohol, what are your thoughts on

Katie: Yeah. Yeah. I, I love neem oil. I actually use neem oil in my hair all over my face, like all the stuff. I think anything that you can do to be more natural is [00:33:00] totally fine. I think the key is, is that patients need to make sure that they are healthy first. A lot of times I'll have people come in and they'll be like, you know, I haven't gone to the dentist in 10 years because I oil pull or I, you know, I use essential oils or rinse with coconut every day, but their mouth is a mess, right?

Katie: And they've inflammation everywhere and calculus everywhere and cavities. And so I always tell people is go to the dentist. Get a clean bill of health or if you're not healthy at least have them You know clean you up and get you healthy and then use those tools to maintain yourself over time You know when patients don't floss their teeth they get little clicks Or little nodules of calculus that build up in between their teeth under their gum line.

Katie: There's nothing but mechanical debridement that will remove that. And there's no amount of oil pooling in the world that will treat that. And that's what's going to cause gum infection and gum disease. So, you know, if people want to use neem rinses and tea tree and things like that, great. Tea tree is also good for pain.

Katie: You know, if someone has a little [00:34:00] ulcer in their mouth, it's great for that. Very antibacterial, neem is great for that, antifungal, all those things. But get clean first, get a clean bill of health, and then use those tools in your toolbox to maintain that bill of health.

Michelle: Yeah, definitely. No doubt. I'm every six months we get our teeth cleaned. It's, it's important to actually get it because you feel it. You feel all the calcification and I even have my own little scraper. Sometimes I'll just get in between, in between times. Cause I'm like, I can't wait until the next six months.

Michelle: Cause it does, it builds up. And then if you have tea and all kinds of different things, like it just, it's there.

Katie: Yeah, so when we have plaque, plaque starts forming on our teeth just a couple hours after we're done brushing. So that's why ideally, if someone can brush three times a day, that's great. At least twice, you know, you'll be okay. But what happens is, once that plaque sits there, it starts to really mature.

Katie: And it gets really, it gets harder to remove because the, the extracellular matrices of the bacteria really start to connect and, and strengthen its attachment to the teeth. Then we mix it with the minerals in our [00:35:00] saliva, and then it hardens and it calcifies into calculus or what people know as tartar.

Katie: Once it's hardened, you cannot get that off unless you remove it with a scaler or something like that. And so it is important to go in and get it removed. Because, you know, even with a scaler, I do it to scale my teeth all the time. There's places you can't obviously reach, you know, like underneath the gum tissue in between that have to be removed.

Katie: And so I actually recommend for people to go in to see their dentist about every three to four months, even if they are healthy. Because we know that bacteria repopulate about every 90 days. , and so in my opinion, six months is too long. Someone like you who's super healthy, you know, probably doesn't need to go in.

Katie: But for the vast majority of Americans especially, they should be staying every three to four months for sure. , to prevent disease. You know, we, It's crazy. Cause the six month timeframe came about because of insurance. It,

Michelle: No, that's exactly why we do six months. Cause our insurance pays for that.

Katie: yes. It was never a medically, , [00:36:00] science based driven

Michelle: Isn't that amazing how the

Katie: Yeah, it was, it was dictated by insurance and it's only after. You get an irreversible diagnosis of gum disease, which is irreversible Once you have that once you have gum disease, we know you have that bacteria in your heart We know it's in your brain We know it's all over the body But it's only until you get that irreversible diagnosis of gum disease that now your insurance will allow you to go in every every three Months, that's crazy In my mind, why not go every three to four months and prevent an irreversible disease?

Michelle: totally, but you know common sense common sense Doesn't always translate into the system

Katie: wish we used our brains more. In

Michelle: Yeah, that's crazy. So another question I have lastly like this is another thing My mom sent me this video on Facebook of a dentist showing how to properly Brush the teeth. So we typically will just keep going back and forth, but he said, all you have to do is [00:37:00] kind of go from the gums up, gums up to remove the food, because when you're going back and forth, all you're doing is just mixing the bacteria in the same space.

Michelle: You're not moving it up. So just wanted to ask you what you thought about that.

Katie: Oh, yeah, I mean, you can, you can do that. Sure, it's fine. The, the point of brushing the teeth, you know, what I always tell people is, the saying is brush your teeth, but what we're really saying is brush the gum line. And so, plaques sits on our, two places. One is it sits on our gum line. That's where it starts to accumulate.

Katie: Then it also sits on top of the teeth in the little grooves. So to prevent cavities, you want to brush the tops of the teeth to get everything, get all the food out of the grooves of the teeth. But the most important thing, especially to prevent gum inflammation is to brush along the gum line of the teeth.

Katie: And the goal of that is to disrupt the biofilm. So sure, if you're brushing up like that's great, you're brushing it away from the gums. But what you really want to do is just do whatever you can to disrupt that biofilm because you're going to spit it out. Once you get the plaque [00:38:00] biofilm disrupted, it's loose.

Katie: You're going to spit it out in the sink. You know, I can't even get people to brush twice a day for two minutes, let alone having them do something as technique sensitive as that. So I just tell people angle your toothbrush at 45 degrees. Right at the gum line. Use an electric toothbrush because it'll be gentle.

Katie: Don't get a hard, hard or medium bristled toothbrush. Very light pressure. Plaque is so soft. You don't have to use any pressure. You just want to disrupt that biofilm along the gum line. Spit it out. Rinsing afterwards is great. Luff, you know, obviously everyone needs to floss every day. , and then tongue scraping is really important.

Michelle: Awesome. This was great information. I'm so happy that I had you on today. So this is just such great information. So for people who want to learn more about you and read your book, how can they find you?

Katie: Yeah. So, , they can follow me on Instagram. I'm pretty good at, at, , responding to the DMS on Instagram. , so [00:39:00] katyleedds on Instagram. My website is also katyleedds. I do Salivary testing for fertility patients. And so if someone wants to check their microbiome and see if they have the bacteria that impact, , Fertility, we do saliva tests for them remotely.

Katie: , and then my book is called Saved by the Mouth. They can get it off my website or on Amazon.

Michelle: Well, Dr. Lee, it was such a pleasure talking to you. I really enjoy your mind and picking your brain I just love how well balanced your information is and, and also just, it's priceless. It's so important.

Katie: Thank you. I appreciate it. Thanks for the opportunity 

EP 281 The Future of Medicine: How Quantum Biology reflects the Body’s Intelligence

Dr. Catherine Clinton, a licensed naturopathic physician, has spent over 16 years helping people overcome their health issues. Diagnosed with two autoimmune conditions and Lyme disease while in medical school, she began the long and difficult journey of healing- a path that led to the commitment to help others to not only heal physically but to return to the relationships we evolved over millennia with for a deeper sense of health and belonging. By healing herself and patients like her, she discovered that true health comes from our relationships. Dr. Catherine has learned how our quantum biological system is intimately and inseparably connected to the world around us. Our relationship with the dirt beneath our feet, the sun, the wind, the water, the plants, the seasons, each other- that is the real medicine.

Her mission is to empower as many people as she can with this knowledge to encourage the paradigm shift we so desperately need.

Website & Social media links (Facebook, instagram, twitter):

Instagram: @dr.catherineclinton

Facebook: www.dr.catherineclintonnd

YouTube @dr.catherineclinton

Website: www.drcatherineclinton.com 

The Way of Fertility is here! Be sure to check it out here www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

For more information about Michelle, visitwww.michelleoravitz.com

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook:https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

Transcript:

Michelle (00:01)

Welcome to the podcast, Dr. Clinton.

Catherine (00:04)

Thank you so much for having me. I know we've been trying to get together to do this for a while and I'm just really excited to talk with you today.

Michelle (00:14)

I am so excited. I've been actually looking forward to this call for like a while just because I found you on Instagram and I was like, oh my God, this lady gets it. Like your work is so fascinating to me. I'm really into quantum physics in general. And then I'm like quantum biology, like the whole idea and just there's so many things that we're uncovering. It's kind of like the future of medicine.

But also, I feel like you're very intuitive in your work. I feel like you're sort of channeling a lot of really fascinating intelligence through your work. So, yeah, that was my initial thing when I started looking at your work and the things that you're posting and sharing. And I would love it if you can share your background and how you got into this field and also how you got into it in the way that you're getting into it.

Catherine (01:10)

Absolutely, absolutely. Yeah, it definitely feels like I've been talking about this for years and now the energy around it is just like so much momentum, right? It kind of used to feel like I was talking in an empty room, sort of talking to myself, right? And what happened was I was in naturopathic medical school. I was in my second year and it was that initiation year where... they really want to weed people out, right? So it's like, get there at 7 a .m. If you're a couple minutes late, you can't sign the attendance sheet. You have to wait another year to take the class, you know, that kind of like med school initiation, really long clinic hours. And it was the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back. And I was diagnosed with ulcerative colitis and Hashimoto's thyroiditis, two autoimmune conditions and I was diagnosed with Lyme disease. So I just was like spiraling with my health. And that's when, you know, I was in a great place to put my physical body back together, put the pieces back together. I was in naturopathic medical school. I was across the river from an acupuncture school. I was just down the hill from a very progressive, allopathic teaching hospital. And so I had so many tools to work with, but for anybody who's had a chronic illness, getting back to that, you know, productive member of society state, while wonderful to go from debilitated to being able to participate again is absolutely incredible. It still is missing a huge piece of health and vitality. And I was really struggling even after I put...the physical pieces back together, so to speak. And that's when my physician, my physician and also the one I was doing rotations, clinical rotations underneath, said you should really look at psycho neuroimmunology. And that's just a big word for how our thoughts and emotions impact our health and our biological function. And at the time I was researching mitochondrial health because I was like, oh, this is the latest, greatest, newest thing. You know, this was almost, 20 years ago, and I read an article by Martin Picard about how our mitochondria are impacted by our emotions and our state of our thoughts, our internal dialogue. And I was like, oh my goodness, this just kind of blew me out of the water and opened up the doors to quantum biology. And then I started actually reading. I discovered the early... quantum biology research from Greg Engel and Graham Fleming about quantum coherence and quantum superposition. And I was just absolutely hooked because in medical school, I was taught like it's still being taught. We're all taught this way that there's a chemical mechanical reason for illness and for health, right? It's all chemicals floating around mechanical parts of our body, that key and receptor lock where the key bumps around and randomly finds its receptor, unlocks the receptor and action can happen. And we now know that, you know, we're trillions and trillions of cells and for the amount of action that happens in a cell, researchers estimated at, you know, hundreds of thousands of tasks each second. Some researchers even say over a million tasks, right? And for that to be random, for that to rely on this bumping around and hoping to find that receptor is just mathematically not feasible, right? And so that's where quantum biology comes in. It gives us this understanding of the subatomic action happening in living systems.

Michelle (05:08)

Mm -hmm.

Catherine (05:18)

that give rise to that chemical mechanical model, which of course that exists, but this idea that it's random, that it's chance, you know, it is just really far from what quantum biology is showing us. It's showing us that there's this intelligence, there's this language happening at the subatomic level, and it seems to be guiding what we see with our eyes, what we see with our symptoms in a doctor's office,

on our lab results, right, our blood work. And so it's such an incredible perspective change than what I learned in school.

Michelle (05:56)

Oh my God, it's a perspective change for life, like for what we learn in life. I mean, there's so many things like, so many things that came to mind as you were talking about, like one of them, I don't remember where I saw this, but it was something about how, like when you first start learning about science, then you start to become like almost like an atheist. You know, you don't believe in God, but the more you uncover science, it actually brings you back to God. It proves God exists and

And you could say God intelligence, whatever you want to call it. But it's basically this intelligence that runs the show of ourselves and tells it where to go and what to do. And there's just so many fascinating things. I mean, I think the biggest mystery is like how does stem cells become what they end up being? How do they differentiate when they all have the same? So the whole idea was like, oh, DNA. Well, they all have the same DNA. What is it about the DNA in the blueprint?

that changes the way it expresses and that environment aspect of it. But it's just, it's fascinating.

Catherine (06:57)

Yeah, absolutely.

It is. It's so fascinating. And I've just been, I've been sort of obsessed for the last couple of years about the fields, right? The electromagnetic fields and how our cells communicate with electromagnetic frequency, right? Just like a language.

and we're able like tuning forks to kind of tune into that. And just like a tuning fork, if you strike a tuning fork that is set at a certain frequency and you have another one that's set at the same frequency, it will pick up that tone and it will start singing that same note, right? It's this communication of resonance and frequency between those two tuning forks. Or if you go into like a piano shop and you press one key,

like the C key on one piano, all the C keys on all the other pianos will start to ring in harmony with that. It's absolutely amazing. And we know that our cells are communicating with electromagnetic frequency. I mean, Michael Levine has done incredible work showing this electromagnetic

Michelle (07:56)

Oh my God, I love that. That's amazing.

Catherine (08:17)

language, right? He was doing work with, I think it was salamanders, maybe frogs, I think it was frogs. And he was trying to figure out just what you were talking about. We know how our DNA makes proteins, right? We know that, but we don't know how those proteins, how those cells become an ear or become an arm, right? That we still don't know. And he was mapping out these electromagnetic frequencies that would happen when a frog would grow a leg, right? And so then he took cells and worked with embryos and he would put that same frequency in different parts of the body and that body would grow that arm or grow that face. And he took these amazing pictures where you can see the electrical imprint of like a face or an arm. So this idea that these fields of electricity are guiding, you know, our very anatomy is just absolutely mind blowing. And the fact that we don't acknowledge that, right? It's just like, oh yeah, that happens. You know, we grow an arm. Yeah, we have no idea how, but we're not really interested. It always like floors me that this research isn't more well funded because it really comes down.

to the fundamental nature of what it means to be alive on this planet. It's incredible.

Michelle (09:48)

It is. And what I find, and especially just being so intrigued by the mind for so many years, and one of the things that I found is that even if there's a false concept, if your mind is so attached to it and that becomes something that you really feel like you've believed in, it's like a death, a little death letting go of that, even if it's false. So people really hold onto it. And that's why there's this medical dogma that happens. And people really hold on to concepts. They have a hard time letting it go. It's like letting a reality shift and it could cause anxiety for people. Like I found that that's like a thing.

Catherine (10:32)

Oh, absolutely, absolutely. I mean, that story I told you where the physician I was working under and who was my physician when she was pushing me to look at my emotional reactions, I was like, oh no, don't you have an herb? Don't you have another lifestyle treatment? Or, you know, I did not want to go there. It's hard to change. It's hard to look at things we don't want to look at.

Michelle (10:45)

Yeah.

Catherine (10:58)

But that's science, right? I mean, that's how we've gained insight into what it means to be human, what it means to be alive on this planet. And if you look at the history of it, it's always disregarded, right? It's always somebody saying, I think it's this, and everyone else saying that new idea is crazy and you're crazy, you know? And so here we are with these,

Michelle (10:58)

Yeah.

Yes, it's true.

Catherine (11:28)

sort of isolated researchers and scientists doing their work, finding incredible discoveries about light and electricity and water and frequency. And we've yet to adopt that on a mainstream model. But I see that it's coming. I'm hopeful.

Michelle (11:48)

I think it's coming from the people. That's kind of my thing. It's not a top -down thing. Now, you know, it's funny because a lot of what Dr. Joe Dispenza talks about is that the best kind of organism is it's a bottom -up. It's the group of people, the collective. And so the collective wants it and they're going to make it happen.

Catherine (11:50) Mm -hmm.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's how I got into this was looking for a way to be healthy, right? A way to live my life without these day in, day out symptoms and suffering. And so I think everybody is looking for that too. And on another level, people are looking for a better explanation of life. This idea that it's just chaotic and it's random and it's

Michelle (12:22)

Yeah.

Yes.

Catherine (12:37)

indiscriminate and it might strike you down at any moment. It's not a safe place to live, right? That does not bring me a sense of ease. And I think so many of us are looking for a different explanation. I think quantum biology offers that.

Michelle (12:43)

Mm -hmm.

Yeah.

Oh my God, I just love, I mean, there's so many things I love about it. And I eventually I'm going to talk to you about like possible books that people can read, or maybe we should just do that now. And then we'll come, come back to some other questions that I have. But what are books for people who don't really know what this is, but it seems intriguing and there's something about it. They're like, Hmm, that really sparks an interest. What books can they read or what, you know, how can they find out more about it?

Catherine (13:21)

Absolutely. Well, what we've just been talking about with electricity sort of guiding life, the body electric is just a classic from Robert O. Becker. And that's just a wonderful read, easy to read and just mind blowing. And that I think that electrical charge is really being guided by the water within us and the water lining ourselves. And that has a very,

Michelle (13:31)

Bony one.

Mm -hmm.

Catherine (13:51)

profound negative charge, and that comes from it being a different structure. And so the fourth phase of water by Gerald Pollock is just another hands down, I'm always recommending that. And when it comes to quantum biology and this idea of quantum phenomenon at play in living systems and looking at how electrons and protons, photons of light, phonons from sound kind of guide our biology. Life on the Edge is a wonderful introduction to the science behind this and how that sort of played out in the early 2000s and how it's starting to explain our protein function, our enzymes, how birds migrate over long distances without any landmarks or any

previous knowledge, right? The first time they do it, they know exactly where to go via this quantum entanglement with the magnetic field of the earth. And so those three books are sort of a wonderful introduction into what quantum biology is and how it's impacting living systems like our own bodies.

Michelle (15:10)

Amazing. And I remember seeing in the Krillian photography, they look at like almost like the it describes the phantom limb where there's some kind of energetic body. And they think that that might be what is causing the cells to differentiate. There's this electric energy. And I don't know if body electric talks about that, but it's kind of like this, this almost, I think it's called a vital body, right? Or the vital body or like a what, what other terms you know?

Catherine (15:40)

Yeah, like the subtle body, people call it often. Yes, this energetic blueprint. And that's exactly what the body electric is talking about. And these researchers are actually measuring that field and then using it to regrow limbs and fingers.

And they were doing this in animal studies, of course, but we know that this happens with humans as well, right? We can regrow a fingertip or a finger if it's lost, especially under the age of five. And this work was being done with human stem cells as well. And so it's just fascinating. And to start to understand and kind of unravel.

Michelle (16:18)

Mm -hmm.

Catherine (16:33)

That language of frequency just gives us a whole different perspective of what's happening in our body and in the world around us.

Michelle (16:42)

You know, I think about this and I knew this story about under the age of five, you can regrow the tip of a finger. What is it about under the age of five that kids have that we lose after the age of five? That's the question, right? Are we too invested in this material world? Is that what causes us to not have that ability anymore?

Catherine (16:55)

Yeah.

I think that we, for lack of better terminology, we just sort of leak electricity, right? We lose electrons as we age, but especially in our modern life, right? Like when my kids were young, I could not keep clothes on them. I could not keep shoes on their feet. They were...

Michelle (17:13)

Mm -hmm.

Catherine (17:26)

outside naked, running around, you know, absorbing all those electrons from the earth and getting that charge from the sun. And they're just really much more vital when it comes to healing, right? Their energetic patterns are just so much different than us as adults. And I think that has to do a lot with...

Michelle (17:28)

Yeah, totally.

Catherine (17:53)

our modern day life, you know, us adults usually are waking up with an alarm clock. We are feeling groggy. We roll out of bed, have some coffee. We're in a house lit by artificial lights. We are living in temperatures that are artificial and separate us from the seasonal temperature changes. And then we go in the car.

with our windows up and then we go in the office and we work all day and we come home and we're like, I deserve to watch Netflix, I'm exhausted. And then we go to bed. So we've completely divorced ourselves from that relationship with the sun and the seasons and the weather and the wind outside and the dirt beneath our feet. All of those things that we evolved over millennia with were really divorced. And what I see in my practice is that,

Michelle (18:18)

Sure.

Yeah. Yeah.

Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.

Catherine (18:45)

Kids are becoming more and more affected by this. And this epidemic of disease in childhood is something that I did not see when I started practice. It was something that was really unheard of 20 years ago. And now it's commonplace to see a child with chronic skin conditions, autoimmune allergies, mast cell. I mean, all of these things are just,

Michelle (18:48)

Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Catherine (19:15)

so prevalent where they weren't a couple days ago.

Michelle (19:17)

Yeah. Oh my God. Yeah. I mean, also just even the toxins that we're exposed to, there's just so many things, so many aspects of it. And I go back and forth because there's some things that are so out of our control. And then sometimes I'm like, wait, is what is going on within me impacting what's out? Because that's really what this is all about. It's what the ancients have always brought us back to the internal.

And we could fix the external from the internal from like meditating and from really connecting to that divine intelligence. And then if we all do it collectively, as we know, it can actually decrease crime rate because we've seen that, uh, I wonder if that's something that more of us should be at least considering and to bring that connection to that divine intelligence, that intelligence that we are all connected.

Catherine (19:55)

Yeah.

Michelle (20:10)

that really is within ourselves.

Catherine (20:14)

Absolutely, absolutely. I say all the time, you know, we don't end at the barriers of our skin, right? And back to those electromagnetic fields, if we think about it, they sort of go out in this toroidal shape. And so that electromagnetic frequency, energy, information, we emit that and it also mingles with the fields around us, picking up information and energy and bringing that back in.

Michelle (20:20)

Yes.

Catherine (20:44)

So we are intimately connected with the fields around us and they impact us, right? And you mentioned some beautiful research on this idea that we can change the state of society if we have a different state, right? So like the research looked at a group of seasoned meditators, right? They were...

have been doing this for years and years. And they asked them to become coherent in lack of a better term, right? They became very meditative and concentrated on a feeling of peace and love and unity. And we saw this in New York, we saw this in the Middle East, that crime rates and wartime violence.

were decreased and the more people that were added to the group, the more those rates declined. And they looked of course for confounding things, right? Is it the heat or is this impacting it? Is that impacting it? And they couldn't explain it. And so it's this beautiful example of what HeartMath Institute talks about all the time, about how coherence in our body.

Michelle (21:46)

Amazing.

Catherine (22:05)

how when our brain and our heart are coherent, it impacts our biology in a whole different way, right? We're innervated in our frontal lobe, we can make calm, rational decisions that impacts our nervous system, our immune system, our hormonal system. And that coherence, when we have that, can actually impact the people around us, right? And affect their level of coherence, affect their nervous system. It's just...

Michelle (22:31)

Yes. Yeah. It is. It really is. And I remember when I first got into meditation, I used to meditate at night. That was like when I did it. And I found that when I meditated at night the next day, people were acting different towards me. And I'm like, is it me? But whenever I meditate, I feel like people are nicer to me, like at work and everything's going easy. And I'm like, I'm almost like, and then, and then of course, when you get more into it, you start to pick up on subtleties that you just are not.

Catherine (22:35)

It's just plain blowing.

Michelle (23:01)

typically familiar with, and one of them being you feel like you can bend time. That's the whole saying of like, if you have time to meditate, meditate for 20 minutes. If you don't meditate for an hour, you will bend time, like literally.

Catherine (23:16)

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And for those that don't have that experience, I think we might all have the opposite experience, right? Where you wake up and you're tired and you don't wanna get out of bed and you stub your toe and you drop your breakfast and you spill stuff over your work project and just that energy starts to snowball. And it's the same thing in reverse or inverse.

Michelle (23:40)

Yes.

Catherine (23:45)

that you're talking about, right? That energy feeds upon itself and the world around us feeds on that too. It's a really incredible thing to experience.

Michelle (23:46)

Yes.

Yeah, definitely. It's almost like we're part of this mesh. And of course, we're touching that mesh, so our energy will impact it.

Catherine (24:06)

Absolutely, absolutely.

Michelle (24:09)

And I remember you talking about water. So almost like, I forget what the term was, but it was almost like activating water or like not, there's a word for it. It's like increasing the vitality, but it's like charged water.

Catherine (24:27)

Yeah, well, when it comes to water, water is just such an underappreciated substance in our world, right? So we have water that we drink, and so water in a glass can become more energized. Some researchers are calling it more coherent or excited, right? But then we also have that water inside of us that I alluded to before. And...Our cells, our cell membranes, our fascia, our DNA, all of these things are hydrophilic, they're water loving. They're not hydrophobic and pushing the water away. Water can come right up to that surface of the cell. And when it does, the interaction between that cell membrane and the water create this structuring of water. And Gerald Pollock, I mentioned his book, The Fourth Phase of Water,

was the first to actually identify this under a microscope. And researchers had been theorizing about it for decades, but he was, or over a century really, and he was the first one to actually identify it underneath a microscope, that it is a different phase, a different structure than water that we drink in a glass, right? And we're used to those three phases, right? That solid ice, that steam vapor, and that liquid water. That liquid water can take different forms, and this structured water in our body becomes gel -like, it becomes viscous, and it actually creates, Gerald Pollock proposes, it creates this hexagonal lattice, almost like a honeycomb, right? Of hexagons. And...it becomes structured in a way he describes as H3O2. And if we have any math -minded people out there, you recognize, well, we're missing a hydrogen. And that's exactly what happens. As that structured water builds inside of us, it kicks out a positively charged hydrogen or a proton, and it creates what researchers are calling a proton wire or a proton rich zone. And the separation of charge between the two. The structured water against our cells and tissues is negatively charged and that proton wire is positively charged. And just like a nine volt battery, it creates energy. And this is another thing that Professor Pollack found in the lab. He put an electrode in that negatively charged water and one in the positively charged water and it was enough to light a light bulb, right? So this starts to explain some of that biological action in our body that we couldn't explain before.

Michelle (27:04)

Wow.

Catherine (27:12)

the ability to communicate almost instantaneously, the ability for our heart and circulation to work the way it does. It just is sort of this incredible understanding that we didn't previously have. And the idea is that this lattice hexagonal structured water as one sheet forms an at acts as a template for more sheets to form. And what's building that? What's creating those layers and building that structured water? Infrared energy, right? So we're right back to your question of why we don't heal as fast as children. Well, we're separated from the biggest source of infrared energy on our earth, right? The sun and movement.

creates infrared energy. Snuggling is one of my favorite ways to increase our infrared energy, right? There's many different ways, but there's this water battery inside of us via this different structure of water inside of us. And we see something kind of similar in a glass of drinking water, that there are what researchers are calling coherent domains.

Michelle (28:06)

Yeah.

Catherine (28:30)

and those coherent domains can have a different charge. And when they go from coherent to incoherent or from excited to a ground state, right, these are all different terms that the research is using, they give off energy that can be used for action, right? Can be used for communication, can draw a molecule in for an interaction. So it's not this random.

chaotic world that we live in. It's this beautiful frequency language and water has such a huge role to play in that.

Michelle (29:09)

Wow, it's so interesting. And there's this thing where it creates almost a vortex. I've seen those like containers that supposedly they make the water more alive. Now I don't understand the science of that. So do you know anything about that?

Catherine (29:26)

Yeah, I mean, there's all kinds of ways that people are structuring, right? So Victor Schauberger was an incredible, I think he was actually a forester who was noticing how rivers flow and that they're never just flowing straight. There's always these eddies and vortexes and that's creating an energetic charge, right? So when you are

Michelle (29:42)

Mm.

Mm -hmm.

Catherine (29:54)

vortexing or stirring or creating that circular motion. You're adding not only that infrared energy, but oxygen to the water, which can create that structure, right? Putting water out in the sun or in the moonlight. That's something that ancient indigenous cultures did all the time, right? We hear about that in the Vedic texts.

Michelle (30:19)

Yeah.

Catherine (30:23)

in Mayan scriptures and it's something that holds true in this idea of structured water, right? Some people are using electrical conduction. There's a company out there, Viva Water, that is doing amazing research with these coils and using the coils to excite the water and create the structure in the water. And,

Michelle (30:33)

Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Catherine (30:53)

It's really new, but has been talked about for so long and for centuries really, when we look at some of the ancient wisdom out there. And when we look at the new research around it, we find that there is research about how it's beneficial for plant growth and agriculture. It's useful for livestock and animals. And there's also research to show that it's beneficial for humans. And so,

Michelle (31:16)

Oh, interesting. Amazing.

Catherine (31:23)

My patients, because I talk about this so much, I get so many questions, right? And my bottom line is there are so many structuring water devices out there, right? And they can get really, really expensive. So what I tell people is if we're hydrated, then we structure the water within us, right? We structure the water with that infrared energy tending to our mitochondrial health.

Michelle (31:44)

Mmm.

Catherine (31:49)

which also create infrared energy, movement, getting out in the sun, safe exposure to the sun. All of those things have the ability to charge that water battery within us. So as long as we're hydrated, as long as we're drinking clean water, with a little bit of mineral content, so that good old osmosis, it can get into our cells and hydrate us, then that's where I really tend to focus.

Michelle (32:11)

Mm -hmm.

Catherine (32:16)

when it comes to just general blanket statements. Of course, I have done other things and dived a little deeper with different patients and people, but just generally speaking, I think we can get such incredible benefit from just being hydrated and then tending to that so -called water battery in our body.

Michelle (32:41)

Fascinating. I mean, I have like a million questions. I have another. So of course I think about messages in the water and how water responds to vibration and it's been measured and visually could be seen in the crystals that occur from certain sounds, music, but also intentions, words. And it's fascinating. And then you think to yourself, well,

Catherine (33:03)

Yeah.

Michelle (33:08)

we're holding all of that in our body and how is our body responding to all these frequencies. And then I got into sulfegio frequencies and also sound bowls and also mantras that have been done for like so many, thousands of years. And they've been talking about this for a long time and how certain mantras have been shown to make a difference. So those specific seed mantras repeated even just in our minds.

compared to random words impacts the body different. So they see that those seed mantras actually have a healing effect, a very calming effect versus they used other words like crick or things that are very like not that way. And it actually causes an adverse effect. So just to show that those specific sounds make a difference.

Catherine (34:01)

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And sound is fascinating, right? It has such a huge effect on us. We know that it structures water. We know that it has so many different effects on us, our nervous system, our vagus nerve, our oxytocin and melatonin. And when we think about it, they're pressure waves, right? They're these pressure waves that are working through a medium and creating these collisions.

of molecules. And when that happens, they create light, they create infrared energy. So we kind of come full circle back to, oh my gosh, it's that language again, right? It's that language of frequency again. It's incredible.

Michelle (34:44)

It really is incredible. And there was another question that I had quantum entanglement. That's another really cool thing. So this is something that I do. I always talk about this because of course, even when we're separated from something that we've already entangled in, that's like the quantum physics.

when we're entangled into something, which means it could be a cell in our body or something that we're connected to somehow, when we get separated from that, the connection doesn't end. You continue having that connection and that impact or relationship where you could almost communicate with that. So they've, I believe you probably know more about this. I think that they took a cell from a liver and like moved it far away and then saw that when they were like,

operating on the liver, the cell reacted. So that's like an example of quantum entanglement. So when people go and do IVF, I work with a lot of fertility. So when they do IVF, I tell them, send love to those embryos, those eggs. They are responding. And whether you think it's true or not, just do it anyway, because it doesn't hurt.

Catherine (35:55)

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. That idea that our thoughts can have an energetic imprint is absolutely fascinating. And I think it's clear in the research, whether we're talking about water memory with like, Luke Montagnier and this electromagnetic frequency of a cell of DNA being held in the water.

being able to record it and actually send it to a lab in another country. And that frequency was played back. I know. And that frequency was played back in that other lab to a glass of water with nucleic acids. And those nucleic acids are like the building block of DNA. And they coalesced and formed almost 98 % identical DNA just with the playing of this frequency.

Michelle (36:28)

So fascinating.

Wow. What is this? This is a... Okay.

Catherine (36:51)

Luke Montagnier, and he's just one of many, what people have termed water memory research, right? But this idea, I think it's pretty clear. We're not 100 % clear on how that's happening, but we are clear that water can act like a mirror, right? It can be imprinted.

Michelle (37:05)

Mm -hmm.

Catherine (37:20)

it can hold information. And so bringing that into our everyday lives is a beautiful practice, I think. And I agree with what you say, even if it doesn't, even if we figure out that it's actually something else, what a beautiful practice that is, right? To really sort of cultivate.

Michelle (37:35)

Heheheheh

Mm -hmm.

Catherine (37:45)

our relationship with water, with the world around us, with our thoughts.

Michelle (37:51)

Yeah. And I think that the reason why we don't optimize our minds and our bodies the way we could is because we just don't believe it

with all these emerging studies and the science that's coming out, it's showing us, wow, there's just so much more to us than we originally thought. It's like, oh my God, my mind is blown. Like I love this stuff. I can nerd on this all day long.

I really, really love this information, but the water memory makes me think about crystals too.

Catherine (38:25)

Yeah. Yeah. Marcel Vogel has done amazing research with not only crystals, but water as well. Right. And so, and all these things we're talking about have a liquid crystal capacity. Right. And that sounds so like, oh my gosh, what is she talking about now with her crystals? Right. But, but this is something that we're very accustomed to. Right. The reason we can talk right now and I can see your beautiful face is because, of these screens, right? Our smartphone, our computer, our TV screens utilize liquid crystal technology. And it just means that it's a mesophase between a liquid and a solid, and it is aligned as a collective. So the molecules are aligned in the same way, in the same orientation. And when an impulse of electricity comes through,

Michelle (38:57)

Yeah.

Mm -hmm.

Catherine (39:22)

they shift in a different way, allowing different light to come in to the screen and show these images, right? The same thing applies to our fascia, our DNA, this water that we're talking about that lines our cells also have a crystalline property. So it's just, it's really mind blowing when you start to see all the different pieces of it.

Michelle (39:49)

It truly, really truly is. And then I think about also those crystal water bottles where they have crystals inside the water so that the water can submerge into quartz or rose quartz or many different ones.

Catherine (40:06)

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. I'm so grateful that researchers are continuing to research this, even though it is not funded by the powers that be, right? But it's such an incredible insight into life on this planet. And so I'm just really grateful that this work continues and can't wait to see.

Michelle (40:19)

Mm -hmm.

Catherine (40:32)

what we find next. And I agree that it seems to be this full circle return to what those ancient indigenous cultures always spoke of. So I can't wait to see more.

Michelle (40:44)

Oh my God, me too. I definitely second you on that. And then also just for people listening, like if people want to really impact the body through the mind, I mean, you've really given us so many great things. How can we use our intention and like really our thought patterns to impact our cells?

Catherine (41:09)

Yeah, absolutely. I think that HeartMath Institute, again, has done amazing work with heart coherence exercises and this idea of creating and feeling a feeling of gratitude or love and bringing that into our heart center and cultivating that feeling of coherence and what that feels like. And I've done this for years and years.

I have their professional software to use with patients. I've used it with my family for years. And what happens is after you cultivate this practice, it becomes a feeling you can sink into, right? You don't have to go through this whole exercise and meditation. You can sink into that feeling of coherence. And it's one of my favorite things to do in an incoherent conversation or room or interaction, right? It's just to like, okay, whoa.

Michelle (42:02)

Mmm, yeah.

Catherine (42:06)

I'm going to get coherent here. I'm going to hope that it brings some coherence to our interaction. Even if it's just me, it's absolutely worth it. So there's lots of coherence exercises on YouTube that are a wonderful place to start. Gratitude practices, just making space for our emotions, even if they aren't gratitude, right? Allowing those emotions to come and

and make space for them and allow them to flow through us. All of these things can really rewire that emotional regulation that we have and that those thoughts in our body, right?

Michelle (42:39)

Mm -hmm.

Yes, definitely. I think keyword regulation, it's all about regulation. It's not about like stopping stress from happening. It's about adapting. So it's kind of like allowing our bodies to do their thing because they're, again, they're charged with this intelligence that they know what to do ultimately when we get quiet and we use these tools. And I think that once you do find that coherence and you feel that coherence,

You learn, like you said, you learn how to look for it. It just becomes very intuitive.

Catherine (43:20)

Yeah, absolutely. I totally agree. It's such a beautiful practice that ripples out to so many different layers of our life. Yeah.

Michelle (43:29)

And I will say, I have to mention something because you talked about like when you're in an incoherent situation and you get coherent, that works. Cause I have had incoherent situations or people like from family trigger it and I felt triggered. And I said, you know, instead of reacting, I'm just going to meditate. I'm going to sit with my feelings. I'm going to sit with this energy. And once it did settle, which to me settling is kind of equating to becoming more coherent.

things started to really feel more at ease in my body. Interestingly enough, get on conversation again, it was like everything was resolved so easily. It was like effortless. So I was like, this stuff works. And so I started to do that moving on. I was like, instead of being reactive, I'm just going to be proactive and kind of sit with myself.

Catherine (44:20)

Yeah, absolutely. I think it's a beautiful practice that has so many different uses and our health is just one of them, right? So, yeah.

Michelle (44:29)

Yeah. Yeah, awesome. So, oh my gosh, I mean, I can literally talk to you for hours, but of course we don't have, we are bound by reality time. But if people are hearing this, and I'm sure like everybody's fascinated by this conversation, because it's just, it's just incredible information and you're such a wealth of knowledge, which I so appreciate and love because

Catherine (44:41)

you

Michelle (44:55)

There's so many things out there that we don't even realize. There's so much research that we don't even know is out there. And to hear that this is actually being looked at is mind blowing. So for people who are interested in either working with you or finding more about you, how can they find you?

Catherine (45:13)

Yeah, I'm Dr. Katherine Clinton everywhere. That's my website, Dr. Katherine Clinton. That's where you can find me on social media, Instagram, Facebook, YouTube for longer videos. I just love to share this information because I think it helps point us in a better trajectory than we're currently on. So that's where you can find me.

Michelle (45:34)

Yes. Oh, love it. Okay. Dr. Katherine Clinton, this was more amazing than I expected and I was expecting it to be amazing. So I am so thankful that we had this time to talk and I'm so thankful for the work that you do and the information that you are getting out. And this is really amazing. So thank you so much for coming on today.

Catherine (45:58)

Oh, thank you so much for having me. I love the work you're doing and it was just a pleasure talking with you today.

EP 280 Could These Five Things Be Sabotaging Your Fertility Health?

In this episode, I'm going to be talking about five things that could be sabotaging your fertility efforts to conceive. And a lot of these things may not be so obvious to a lot of people, 

I will be covering:

• Why too much of a good thing isn’t so great for your fertility health (you’ll find out what I mean!)

• The importance of sleep and how to regulate it if you’re having trouble.

• Why many fertility disruptors can be hiding in your kitchen and ones that even fooled me!

• Important times to eat during the day and why!

For more information about Michelle, visit www.michelleoravitz.com

For more information on fertility diet, you can pick up my free fertility diet ebook in the notes. https://www.michelleoravitz.com/fertility-diet

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

Links mentioned in this episode:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5457858/

https://www.ewg.org

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4350886/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7400274/

[00:00:00] Could these five things be sabotaging your ability to conceive?

In this episode, I'm going to be talking about five things that could be sabotaging your fertility efforts to conceive. And a lot of these things may not be so obvious to a lot of people, So stick around.

So number one is over exercise. So while exercise is something that is really good for the body and it can actually improve fertility health. If a person is overweight or if they have not exercised before, it can improve your lymphatic movement, your blood circulation. And increase your overall energy. However, if you over exercise, too much of a good thing is not so good. So while exercise is amazing for the body, in some cases, over exercise has been shown to adversely impact reproductive health. So studies have confirmed that over exercising could [00:01:00] impact menstrual cycle irregularities and ovulation. or, amenorrhea, which is when your period completely stops.

There was one study done where women underwent a really intensive training for military camp. And what they found was that 68 to 98 percent of them who started out to have regular periods, ended up becoming irregular after the training.

So what's been observed with over exercise is that it impacts the luteal phase. So it can cause luteal phase defect in the menstrual cycle, which means that the second part of the cycle, which is after ovulation is shorter than it should be. And the reason that is so important not to happen, is because it's a really important time for implantation to occur. And if it's too short, it doesn't allow for that pregnancy to take place. Over exercise can also increase cortisol and cortisol tends to compete with progesterone, [00:02:00] which is why it can impact the luteal phase since progesterone is the main hormone. that increases around the luteal phase.

And it's a really important hormone, not only for pregnancy to occur, but also to support pregnancy, they also found that ovulation hormones such as GNRH, FSH and LH, as well as estradiol were suppressed, and that led to an ovulation, which means that they were not ovulating. And that is why over time it can either make the periods irregular or take away the periods altogether.

And as you know, you need to ovulate in order to get pregnant otherwise you're not going to have an egg to fertilize. So that is one of the reasons why overexercising can really impact the body is because it causes a lot of stress on the body. When the body experiences a lot of stress, it also increases cortisol, which is a stress hormone. Cortisol tends to compete with progesterone, which is a really important [00:03:00] hormone, but also the body overall is in a deficit of energy.

So this could be also under eating. or over exercising, then it doesn't have enough reserves to ovulate and to have the menstrual cycle or to put it towards reproductive health. And I've talked about this before, is that reproductive health really, in essence, is a reflection of overall health. And in order to have a robust reproductive system, the body has to have enough energy and reserves in order to support it because pregnancy takes a lot of energy.

And if it doesn't have enough energy and also enough blood to support it, then it is going to put that off to the side and worry more about survival because it's going to. focus whatever energy it has, if it's at a deficit, it's not going to spend too much. It's going to conserve its spending, which in essence, the spending is towards reproductive health.

It's going to conserve the spending so that it can focus more on overall health.

So here's another thing [00:04:00] that I'm going to mention is that really this depends on the person and the body weight. So if somebody , is overweight and has a lot of reserves and energy that's really not being used and has been stored, then they benefit with a higher intensity workout. And even with that, not too much, but they can afford to do that because then their body will increase its energy and also decrease insulin resistance. So it actually can help in certain circumstances to increase it a little bit, nothing overdone, but like a little bit extra exercise in certain cases is important. But for women who have a normal body weight and they over exercise, then that can bring them at a deficit. So you look at it like an energetic bank account. We don't want to decrease that bank account, that reserve of energy, because we need that reserve in order to reproduce. So in order to create new life, you're kind of having an extra, an extra something, it's important that the body's able to support that.

So what is considered too much? So [00:05:00] anything more than seven hours, seven hours or more of aerobic exercise per week and moderate exercise is ideal, which is one to five. Hours per week and one to five hours per week has been shown to improve fertility. So it's important to keep it within a healthy range and not do too much. And nowadays, a lot of the gyms, they do very high intensity workouts and it's not the end of the world. If you like to do that once in a while, however, doing it every single day and sometimes even doing two. different times of exercising or just really overdoing it that can definitely tax the body and when the body feels taxed and There's too much of a deficit.

It starts to feel anxious So the body itself starts to feel like it needs to go into survival mode and what happens cortisol goes high Because it's a stress on the body So yes exercise can be a stress and a deficit of energy can feel like a stress Because then [00:06:00] the body's like, oh what's going on? I need to like, really.

Hit the reserves or slow down my energy output and what that equates To is that we can't worry about reproducing right now so typically that is how over exercise can impact the reproductive health so Number two is plastics and i'm sure you've heard about this plastics. Yes. We know that it's not great for the body obviously but a lot of people don't realize that plastics can be hiding out in places that you least expect it. So the obvious ones are plastic bottles, you'll see that everywhere.

A lot of people avoid them. You'll see people with glass bottles or stainless steel bottles. And listen, I know this, but sometimes I use plastic bottles when we're away. So all of what I'm saying doesn't have to be done to an extreme. And if it's too stressful, then that causes a whole other chain of events in the body as well.

So it's not that you have to [00:07:00] completely avoid it, but for the most part, there are certain things that you really should watch out for. And first things first, did you realize that a lot of sanitary pads Have plastic and that is in the very precious area of your body and you're in there and your blood and you're open when you're having your period, your lining is more open and you're more susceptible to absorbing things when you have your period.

So it's important to find sanitary pads that are using organic cotton or a non toxic. And there are a lot of great. Brands out there. Same thing with tampons. You're sticking 'em up there. And you wanna make sure that it doesn't have any toxins or endocrine disruptors or chemicals that can impact your hormones. Here's another one. This is something that a lot of people don't pay attention to, and it was including me until I found out, and I was shocked when I found out, was tea sachets.

And they're so pretty looking. I remember when regular normal [00:08:00] bags of tea it went from something really flat and boring to something that's three dimensional and really pretty and shiny. And guess what? The reason why it's shiny is because it has plastics and that plastic and that sachet can leak out a lot of nano particles of plastics in the hot water. Because as we know, many plastics are not supposed to be microwaved.

Well guess what? The heat itself leaches plastic. So when you put that in really, really hot boiling water, what do you think happens? It gets into your whole tea that you're about to drink. On a similar note, you'll find a lot of coffee makers have plastic. You'll find coffee pods that are plastic, and you're putting it in this hot coffee maker, and they're in a plastic container. And the coffee machine itself, or even like the machine that doesn't have the pods, goes through.

Plastic. So it's hot water that goes through plastic. So those are things to pay attention to. Even an electric [00:09:00] tea kettle, a lot of them have plastic on the top. So there are ones that are just made with stainless steel. Those are things to pay attention to. Another thing that is very , commonly used, and I didn't pay attention to this right away.

And I knew this stuff are cutting boards and a lot of cutting boards are made with plastic. So that's a whole other thing. And you're cutting on those boards and you're cutting tiny pieces of plastics and putting them in your food and then taking that and heating it up.

So imagine infusing plastics into your food and why is plastic so bad? it's because plastic is an endocrine disruptor. It has chemicals that disrupt your hormones. And BPA was one of the chemicals and it was focused on a lot. And then they had other plastics, which is a marketing thing. Other plastics where they said BPA free. Why? Because they found out BPA was very much [00:10:00] impacting hormones, but not just hormones, but it also contributed to birth defects. So imagine this is just one that has been discovered, but there's probably a lot more when something leeches into your food, it's just not good.

You don't want anything leeching in your food. You want tools to stay tools and not to eat your tools. So it's important to have. Materials that are not going to leach and that can withstand the heat.

Here's another one. , it's a shocking one because again, this totally bypassed my mind. I never thought about this, but have you ever thought about those disposable coffee cups? Yes, they're made of paper, but what causes that paper not to crumble? And to get wet plastic, so there's a plastic lining that prevents the hot water from degrading the paper cup around it. So that is plastic that is getting exposed to very hot water so this is another thing that most people[00:11:00] don't realize, but it actually does leach out nanoparticles of plastic. And again, the endocrine system in the body is super sensitive and it works like a thermostat where it finds that something. It gets high, it's going to lower its own ability to produce it.

So a lot of times plastic can confuse the body and the body will think it is an estrogen. It's called xenoestrogens and it can cause the body to get confused and that can cause a cascade of events, not so good events that can impact your reproductive system. So what can you do? So I know this sounds overwhelming at first but all you have to do really is just take out some time at first and Eventually, it's gonna be a lot easier once you come up with a plan So take some time look through your kitchen and see what kind of products are possibly leaching or possibly not and to get help with that you can visit ewg. org and I'll have [00:12:00] that in the notes below. And that is a great resource. They look at different products. They look at different, chemicals and they rate products based on. How safe they are and how non toxic they are. So it's a great resource that is easy to get. And there are a lot of other apps out there that you can find as well.

I remember think dirty was a great one. You can find, different products and look them up and see what is good and what is not so good. 

But EWG is a great resource that you could pretty much look up anything. And they also have EWG certified products that you can find that they have looked into and saw that they were safe and they're safe enough where they are ready to put their stamp behind it. So once you do a little homework. On that, it's going to get a lot easier because then all you do is just reorder certain products and the prices are not that much of a difference and it's just so worth it because ultimately the price for your reproductive [00:13:00] health is higher than anything else.

So, number three, inadequate sleep. It sounds obvious, you know, sleep is important, but people don't realize just how important it is. Besides not being able to function with sleep, there's so many other things that sleep does for you that we don't even realize, especially for our reproductive health and our hormone balance.

And it also goes back to that whole energy deficit. It's important to have enough energy for your body. And one of the ways that we restore our energy is through sleep. So the sleep wake cycle or circadian rhythm impacts the menstrual cycle and the ovulatory function. Think of this as a pulse. So it's kind of like a pulse from nature. We get the pulse of lights and then we have our own pulse where we have our own rhythm , of rest and awake.

In the morning, we'll have a rise in cortisol at night. We have a rise of melatonin. And so there's this pulse that happens within our body within our 24 hour clock. And that pulse ripples [00:14:00] into our menstrual cycle and our own internal rhythms.

So sleep is vital for hormone production, but it's also vital for lowering cortisol, because if you don't sleep enough, cortisol rises. And as we know, cortisol likes to compete with progesterone, so it can really impact your menstrual cycle function. 

Keep in mind that you want to balance out sleep. So you don't want to sleep too much because sleeping too much isn't great either Sleeping too little isn't great. Anywhere from eight to nine hours of sleep per night is ideal so what can you do? In order to have good sleep hygiene, you want to get some sunlight early in the morning because one of the ways that our brains know night from day is by light. So when you perceive the light during the day, that anchors your circadian rhythm and helps you sleep at night and produce more melatonin at night.

Another thing that you can do is start to dim the lights as it gets closer to evening. So you want to dim the lights a couple of hours before [00:15:00] you go to sleep, or just make them a little lower, nothing too bright. And if you are in front of devices, you can get Something called blue light blockers, which are sunglasses.

Well, they're not sunglasses, they're glasses that block out the blue light and they make everything look yellow. And that helps your brain because the blue light actually wakes up your mind and it makes you think that it's daytime. You might also want to have your sleep time routine. So things like diffusing lavender oil giving yourself a little self massage, reading a book, having some warm herbal tea

are things you can do to ease yourself into better sleep.

So number four, and I see this a lot in my practice and I never hesitate to let my patients know. I just don't love it. And this is wearing your radiation. I see this with smartwatches or people putting their phones on their bodies so here's the thing when it doesn't have wires, it's got waves.

So the wires help the energy [00:16:00] to move, but then if it doesn't have that, it's got waves and those waves impacts your own energetic body. This isn't good for men or women. Cell phones have been shown to increase radiation and they emit invisible waves that your body does perceive on an energetic level. When they're close to our bodies, we are receiving that wave. We are absorbing those waves. These waves have been shown to influence your sleep, and they've been shown to influence your brain activity as well.

And I will link to that study in the notes. And TCM, traditional Chinese medicine, talks about our bodies and how they run on this vital life force energy

So this energy that we have, it responds to our environment, and this is one of the reasons why nature is so beneficial. And when we have a disruption of that, of something that is not really natural and is foreign to the body and the body doesn't really know what to do with it, it disrupts your energetic patterns.

 So yes, [00:17:00] technology can make things very convenient, but it comes with a cost, and it's important to protect your natural energetic frequency. So what can you do? So one of the things that I recommend is keep your phone outside of your room.

And if you have it in your room as an alarm clock, turn it on airplane mode. And if you absolutely can't do that for whatever reason, keep it away from your bed as far as you can. Also avoid putting things on your body that are cordless, that run on energetic frequencies, that are invisible.

Another thing that you can do is grounding. So putting your feet on the earth or on a grounding mat can help absorb those energetic frequencies in the body. So it's one way to clear out our body's frequency and also walking outside, being in nature, having that connection with nature and really connecting, even touching trees, because trees are, if you look at them with their roots in, they go into the earth too.

They use that energy that the earth provides. Something else that I [00:18:00] recommend is shungite, it's a type of stone that has a lot of carbon, it's carbon rich, and it's been shown in a study with rats to lower radiation in the body, 

and because it's carbon rich, it absorbs and neutralizes the radiation.

So lastly, number five, and this is a huge one, is skipping breakfast.

So from an Ayurvedic perspective, when the sun comes up. Our bodies are primed to digest, so the sun reflects our internal state of Agni. Our fire increases as it's daytime, so our bodies are primed to eat.

And skipping meals, especially breakfast, which is a very important meal to prep your body so that it has energy for the day. It can increase cortisol as well. So again, this is a third thing that can increase cortisol

and cortisol competes with progesterone, a very important hormone for conception.

Skipping breakfast can also lead to weight gain. And there was a study that was done observing college students that were skipping [00:19:00] breakfast and it's been shown that young women that were skipping breakfast

had a correlation with menstrual cycle irregularities. I will put that study in the notes as well. So Ayurvedic practices encourage eating during the day and slowing that eating down as the sun goes down.

So during the day, and especially in the afternoon, that is when the body is primed to eat its largest meal. So our own internal acne, which is our digestive fire, is increased by responding to nature's fire, which from 12 to two is the highest when the sun is out.

So unlike what is frequently done with intermittent fasting, which tells you to skip breakfast. And by the way, was mostly studied on men and not women. And. Instead of skipping breakfast to do that, you can actually, if you'd like to fast fast when the sun goes down. So three or four hours before you go to sleep is ideal and it helps you to have better [00:20:00]sleep and it allows your body to rest fully.

in that fasting state so that it's not focused so much on digestion, which takes a lot of energy. And then you can focus more on hormone balance and all the benefits that you can get from restorative sleep.

So what should you do? So I often suggest eating a balanced breakfast that includes proteins, healthy fats, healthy carbs, and fiber. So an example can be Eggs and spinach along with an avocado smash on buckwheat toast or full fat yogurt because full fat dairy is better. And has been shown to be healthier for fertility health with berries and granola and nuts and seeds. So there you have it. Those are five things that can possibly be sabotaging your fertility health. For more information that can help you improve and boost your fertility health, be sure to subscribe to this podcast.

Thank you so much for joining me today [00:21:00] and I'll see you next time.

EP 279 Is “Unexplained Fertility” an acceptable diagnosis? Dr. Samantha Briguglio

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, Dr. Briguglio, a fertility health expert, shares her passion for empowering patients and addressing the challenges of unexplained infertility and overreliance on IVF. She emphasizes the importance of comprehensive testing and addressing root causes to improve fertility health. Dr. Briguglio also discusses the interconnectedness of physical and mental health and the significance of individualized testing in the initial consultation. Additionally, she highlights the importance of iron and ferritin levels and addresses the challenges of vegan diets and cholesterol.

In this conversation, Dr. Samantha Briguglio discusses the role of cholesterol and inflammation in health. She emphasizes that cholesterol is not the villain it is often portrayed to be and that it is needed for hormone production. Dr. Briguglio advocates for a balanced approach to diet and lifestyle, focusing on sleep, diet, and movement. She encourages individuals to find their own natural path to healing and emphasizes the importance of empowering people with information.

Takeaways

• Comprehensive testing and addressing root causes are crucial for improving fertility health.

• The physical and mental aspects of health are interconnected, and addressing both is important for fertility.

• Individualized testing and a holistic approach are key in the initial consultation.

• Iron and ferritin levels play a significant role in fertility health, and vegan diets may present challenges in obtaining necessary nutrients. Cholesterol is not the villain it is often portrayed to be and is needed for hormone production.

• Nourishing the liver and eating enough fiber can support healthy cholesterol levels.

• A balanced approach to diet and lifestyle, focusing on sleep, diet, and movement, is crucial for overall health.

• Empowering individuals with information allows them to make informed choices about their health.

Dr. Samantha Briguglio is a licensed Naturopathic Medical Doctor and the founder of Walk the Natural Path Hormone Health and Fertility Care.

Dr. Briguglio has a passion for helping women achieve their wellness and/or fertility goals, and she treats – and teaches – her patients from a mindset of natural healing that treats the root cause of their symptoms.

Website: www.walkthenaturalpath.com

Instagram @walkthenaturalpath

Facebook: www.facebook.com/walkthenaturalpath

For more information about Michelle, visit www.michelleoravitz.com

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

Transcript:

Chapters

00:00 Introduction and Passion for Fertility Health

04:09 Passion for Empowering Patients

07:07 Challenges with Unexplained Infertility and Overreliance on IVF

11:03 Importance of Comprehensive Testing and Addressing Root Causes

16:35 Interconnectedness of Physical and Mental Health

24:06 Importance of Iron and Ferritin Levels

25:56 Challenges with Vegan Diets and Cholesterol

26:52 The Role of Cholesterol and Inflammation

30:05 Nourishing the Liver and Eating Fiber

35:03 The Importance of Sleep, Diet, and Movement

37:34 Finding Balance in Diet and Lifestyle

43:20 Empowering People with Information

45:30 The Inspiration Behind Walk the Natural Path

Michelle (00:00)

Welcome to the podcast, Dr. Brigulio, right? Brigulio is how you pronounce it, or Sammy, right? Awesome. Dr. B, awesome. So first of all, I love your Instagram. I'm going to say that. You guys got to check out her Instagram. It's going to be in the episode notes. I kind of want to lead with that because she has fabulous content, really rich with information and tips.

Samantha Briguglio (00:05)

Yes, you did that nicely. Or Dr. Bean. It's easier.

Michelle (00:25)

for fertility care and health. And before we get started, I would introduce yourself and also share how you got so passionate in specifically fertility health.

Samantha Briguglio (00:39)

Yeah, well, thank you so much. It's really fun to have a platform like Instagram to share all this stuff with and help educate people. But hi, I'm Dr. B. Virgulio, Samantha Virgulio. I actually just got married. So legally, my name, I just changed my name. Thank you so much. It's been really, really fun. But I am keeping Dr. B for business purposes. So you can always remind me, remember that.

Michelle (00:54)

Congratulations.

Samantha Briguglio (01:09)

I'm Dr. B, so you don't have to worry about any changes. But how I got infertility, I feel like it's kind of a long story, but I'll try to keep it as short as possible because this also has to do with how I got into natural medicine, which actually stemmed from when I was a child. I was pretty sick as a kid. And I was pretty sick.

Long story short, my mom really fought for me and found natural medicine. And I went from being on like oxygen treatments like two to three times a day. Yeah, it was pretty crazy to being a total normal kid who played a bunch of sports and just loved running around and just basically natural medicine changed the trajectory of my life. And so I became super passionate about it. Went to college, was kind of like, eh, I don't wanna go to med school. That looks really hard.

Michelle (01:38)

Oh wow.

Samantha Briguglio (02:00)

trying to find other avenues, but I always got brought back to natural medicine. I was like, this is just where I'm supposed to be. Actually wanted to go into pediatrics originally and ended up not doing that because I wasn't able to get enough training, like hands on, like one-on-one with kiddos. And I just felt like that was really irresponsible. It's like all of a sudden started a practice where I was working with kids and I didn't feel like ready or trained enough to do that. And...

In my last year of school, I actually found a fertility course. It was like an extra like, I don't know, $600 on top of all the other loans I was taking out. So I was like, oh, this looks fun and interesting. I fell in love. Like I just fell in love. I actually, the person who wrote the course is Dr. Jacqueline Chassie at the time. She just changed her last name. I guess it's a few years now. Seamonton, I think it is. If anyone wants to find her, her courses are great.

Michelle (02:44)

Wow.

Samantha Briguglio (02:56)

but Hello Fertility is her Instagram actually. But she is an amazing teacher and I went on to join her year-long mentorship in fertility after I graduated, which obviously kind of like changed the course of my life and career. And I just felt so in love with it. Part, I was actually really good at it, right? Like sometimes like you're just good at something or not. And I was like, I don't want to be a jack of all trades anymore. And I just felt like I...

Michelle (03:01)

Mm-hmm.

Samantha Briguglio (03:25)

my intuition just went very hand in hand with the fertility practices, treatment, and just diving into that and learning more. I loved it, I enjoyed it. And then later on, I'm talking to my mother and my grandmother, and I'm telling them how I'm so drawn to this, and I find out my mom went through her own journey with miscarriages and loss, and then my grandmother, took her 10 years to conceive, I'm like, no wonder I'm drawn to this. I'm supposed to help all these people. My family had this struggle, so like.

Michelle (03:51)

Wow.

Samantha Briguglio (03:55)

Now I get to help and get back. So kind of a long story. I try to give the most important pieces, but there it is.

Michelle (03:59)

That's incredible.

Amazing. No, it's interesting because my mom had secondary infertility with me. tried for a while.

So she had a really hard time. She also thought she was going to lose me at different times, like lost a ton of weight. So it's kind of interesting that you say that. And it's pretty wild because it does kind of hit home.

I don't know, I do believe that subconsciously we can almost feel something in ourselves. There's just certain things that call to us and we just feel like this is it. This is what we're supposed to do. And I totally understand what you're saying. It really, really resonates with me. So that's cool.

Samantha Briguglio (04:38)

Yeah, right, you just keep getting pushed down a path where eventually you're like, okay, I'm surrendering, this is what I'm supposed to do. Like that's basically what happened to me.

Michelle (04:48)

Amazing. Well, you're so good at it and I can feel the passion. I really can. That's one of the things that I love Instagram. I have to say, I mean, with social media, it's like a blessing and a curse, right? But there's so many amazing things about social media because you're able to connect with people in a different way and get to know people. And people are able to share stories and information. You can get tons of information on Instagram, especially it's really big in the fertility world.

So I feel like there's just so much content, but you can really feel a person's passion and also just drive to learn and provide quality information. And I find that with your account, it's actually one of my favorite accounts, I'll be honest, because it teaches me and this is where I love it. I'm like, when I feel like I'm getting, as a practitioner, I'm learning so much, I'm like, I got to have them on the podcast. I got to pick their brain.

Samantha Briguglio (05:42)

You're so sweet. Thank you. I feel like, yeah, no one's ever told me I run short on passion, that's for sure.

Michelle (05:42)

For my guests and for me.

Well, it works for you and it works amazing. And so we were talking actually in the pre-talk about certain things that we feel really passionate about. And as practitioner, I find, and I know that you're great because we talked about it, that usually your passion, it's like the P, right? The P, because P for passion and P for pissed off. It's very fine line between the two because

Samantha Briguglio (06:15)

R-heh!

Michelle (06:19)

The things that we're passionate about, we've also been pissed off about. Meaning, for me, it's like I'm being told that you can't do something. I've always had that even in my life. I'm like, no, screw you. I can do it. Don't tell me I can't. I feel that passion with my patients. When people tell them they can't, and then I see that they can, and I'm like, I can't

why are you telling them they cannot do it? I don't like that. It pisses me off, but I feel very passionate about empowering. So you feel like that too. We talked about a couple of things. So I'll let you have the mic.

Samantha Briguglio (06:57)

Yeah, yeah, we talked about two main things, right? I think the first one was the unexplained infertility. That diagnosis drives me nuts. Because I probably said a couple bold things about it on Instagram before, and one of them that I felt like it was lazy medicine. And I feel like that seems harsh, but it's kind of the reality of it, right? Because I'm like, you're being lazy. You're not doing any more tests, you're not trying to figure out like what could be this underlying cause, you're just saying like, oh, the things that are obvious are all good. So we don't know there's it's unexplained. And so that drives me nuts.

Michelle (07:35)

It feels like you're putting it back on the patient. That's what it feels like. It feels like, oh, well, we don't know. So here you go.

Samantha Briguglio (07:41)

Yeah, 100%. And then, you know, leading to the other thing that we kind of talked about is that then it's like, okay, well, we don't know, so IVF is your only answer. That drives me nuts. I think IVF is amazing. I think it has a time and a place. I think it has helped a lot of families, especially with, you know, certain diagnosis, especially anatomical ones, but like to be like you have unexplained, let's do IVF, or, you know, we haven't even pulled your progesterone yet, but we don't know what else is wrong. So like, let's just go to IVF. Like it just...

Yeah, talk about getting heated and passionate, which just drives me insane, because I feel like it's unfair and you're not doing your duty to your patients and it's at the end of the day, kind of lazy. Yeah.

Michelle (08:22)

Yeah. And I'll tell you, um, I feel like there's this common misconception. I feel like that it's almost, I almost want to say it's due to marketing because we have been conditioned to believe that if we pay an arm and a leg for something, it's a guarantee that we're going to get the best of the best. And I think that that's what it is. People think that it's a guarantee to go through the IVF process. And I've actually found, and again, same as you, I completely agree.

Samantha Briguglio (08:39)

Yeah.

Michelle (08:52)

that IVF's incredible. It's an amazing thing to have. It's amazing. The technology's beyond. I remember going and doing acupuncture for a transfer, and every time I go, I'm beside myself on the incredible opportunity that so many couples have. So 100%, yes, for that. However, in some cases, I've actually found that my patients have had many failed IVFs.

retrievals and transfers. And then they went on and did better getting pregnant naturally at an older age in their forties. So like that kind of, it challenges that whole idea or mindset that it's a guarantee and it's like the only option for some people. So I'd love to get your thoughts on that.

Samantha Briguglio (09:40)

Oh yeah, I've had many patients that have tried multiple IVF things like three to four even, and come back and get pregnant naturally. IUI same thing, a lot of IUIs and then they'll get pregnant naturally. And they're like, I don't really get it. I'm like, it's because we had to treat the root cause. Like one of them that really stands out in my mind is that they had actually got health issues and everyone was like, their hormones looked actually pretty decent. Even their A quality wasn't bad, but their gut was like not okay. Like

not okay at all. Like diarrhea episodes daily, which is that's, that's not a healthy gut. And I was like, Oh my gosh, what? And so we treated and we treated for a little bit and they started to heal and started to feel better. And then all of a sudden, like a couple months later, like boom, pregnant and healthy pregnancy. And I just tell, like, it's just a testament to like, the reproductive system can be fine. But if something like your thyroid or your

Michelle (10:10)

Mm-hmm.

Oh wow.

Samantha Briguglio (10:40)

your other systems that we have that make our whole body, right, is impacted. That can cause issues. Your body sometimes doesn't want to, you know, carry another life if everything isn't okay.

Michelle (10:54)

Yeah, totally. And so you mentioned actually a really important one, gut health. Western medicine is amazing in what they're amazing. You know, everybody has their own toolbox and like things or specialties. And so that's not something that's typically looked at or like, you know, tested. They'll do like, they'll look at like ultrasound, they'll look at like

Samantha Briguglio (11:09)

Mm-hmm.

Michelle (11:14)

the tubes, they'll look at like the anatomical, they'll do the blood work, the hormones.

And obviously, when they come to you, it's a whole other detail of testing. So let's talk about some of the things that are often missed in conventional medicine that you look at that they may not know about.

Samantha Briguglio (11:36)

Yeah, I'll definitely talk to that. I do also wanna say like some things are also best in combination. So I love natural medicine and I think it can do amazing things, but a lot of times also like a combination of like conventional and natural is also really amazing. I've won, like for example, endometriosis patient that it's been really beneficial for them to have both, right? They have like the laparoscopic surgery done and now we're working on inflammation and reducing all these other things, but.

Michelle (12:02)

Right.

Samantha Briguglio (12:05)

they're feeling so much better. So like I said, I can get heated about some things, but I also am very appreciative of all forms of medicine. It's just like, we all, we just have to stay in our lane and also know that it's okay if there's, if someone's taking from all different types. If anything, that's good, right?

Michelle (12:14)

Yeah.

Yes. I always say like a team, a well-rounded team with all their different strengths.

Samantha Briguglio (12:32)

Exactly. So I just wanted to say that too. But when it comes to things that I look at that are going to be different, I mean, who I feel like the list can be kind of long, actually. I mean, I asked from everything like, what are your bowel habits or your bowel movements to your, you know, what's your gum health like, do your gums bleed a lot to, you know, do you have headaches, musculoskeletal pain, we focus a ton on stress. And it's not like the type where it's like, oh, you're stressed, like, just don't stress, right? No, we like figure out like,

root cause of that stress. And if that root cause needs to be explored more, it's like, okay, do we bring another person onto this team? Obviously we focus on a ton of diet and lifestyle habits. I just ask about them. And then we talk about what we can improve versus what we don't need to improve. Thyroid health, like I said, the list can kind of go on and on, but it can be from anywhere from like your daily habits to environmental exposure, you know, a job at the workplace. I actually see a lot of blue collar men.

Michelle (13:14)

Yeah.

Samantha Briguglio (13:32)

I find that to be very common, either blue collar or very like high stress jobs are a lot of men that I see for like sperm count and quality. And you know, like I said, I feel like the list could go on and on. There's always kind of something and I kind of say there's like the most obvious things, which to me are like diet and lifestyle, gut health, like thyroid health. And then there's like the small things like anti sperm antibodies and you know, like an immune flare or

Michelle (13:48)

Yeah.

Samantha Briguglio (14:00)

you know, skin conditions or, you know, maybe some of the things that seem a little less obvious, like reproductive microbiome. Uh, and there's kind of almost tests for all of this now. It's just also, it can't be really expensive. So like I said, I like to start with like the really big layering things, make sure those are good before I move on to the smaller things.

Michelle (14:12)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I mean, there's so many things that I definitely want to talk about with what you just said. Like one of the things, you know, it's interesting how people are saying, oh, just stop being stressed. Sometimes you're stressed because your body's stressed. Like if your body or your gut's off, it's going to impact your mind. Well, in Chinese medicine, we learn about how everything's so interconnected. So like how your body feels if your body's not getting the nutrients it needs, it's going to feel stressed. I mean, have you ever felt hangry? You know that like impacts.

Samantha Briguglio (14:41)

Yeah.

Michelle (14:50)

immediately or if you're not getting enough sleep, if you're not getting good sleep, that's going to impact your stress levels. So it's so intricately connected. And when you have that calm, or even your gut health is better, your mind starts to feel better as well.

Samantha Briguglio (15:06)

Yeah, I love that analogy of have you ever felt a hangry? I think that's so perfect. I haven't heard it, but that's so good. Like, yeah. Like sometimes if you're not, no, you don't even know sometimes you're not even not feeling good, but it could be manifesting as an emotional response or something. I know I was feeling a little extra stressed out and I myself did a gut health test on myself and I was like, whoa. Like honestly, I would expect more physical symptoms, but I think mine were manifesting a little bit different. And I'm like, wow.

Michelle (15:14)

It's like perfect example, right?

Right. Well, that is such a good point that you bring up because I think that, like for example, my patients who are sensitive to gluten, they end up feeling really well after removing gluten, but not for the reasons they think. Like they say, if I eat bread, I'm fine. I don't feel bloated or anything like that. But with food sensitivities, it doesn't necessarily have to show up as digestive discomfort.

Samantha Briguglio (15:49)

Yeah.

100%.

Michelle (16:01)

And I think that that's like, you know, so that's like one example of how things can impact you, you don't even realize that you could have something and that has nothing to, like, you're not going to feel it directly as that. It could show up as headaches or low energy. It could be so many things.

Samantha Briguglio (16:17)

Yeah, brain fog, anxiety, joint pain. Joint pain's a big one that everyone just brushes off as like musculoskeletal issue. And I'm like, no, that's like an inflammation issue, right? Like, why are you? Like, so yeah, no, I, for sure.

Michelle (16:24)

Right.

Oh yeah. Yeah, for sure. So how do you figure out like where you start with the testing? Like when you first see people, I mean, I'm sure it has to do with a lot of what they'll tell you.

Samantha Briguglio (16:42)

Yeah, so, you know, initially, depending if I have like a single visit or I see a fertility for two. So I see, you know, people individually, but I see the couple together, which also I think super important. I feel like one person always seems to get ignored. Like there's never like, let's treat both. It's like, oh, there's a abnormal semen analysis. Let's treat the guy. And then like the female side's forgotten. Or, oh, so this person has endometriosis. Let's make sure we focus on that. And then to see the male sides.

Michelle (16:53)

Yeah, that is.

Samantha Briguglio (17:10)

forgotten. So it's like, I really like the fact that fertility for two. Honestly, it's mostly for affordability that I do the fertility for one just because if we can try to do something, but I always think, you know, treating both is the best. But when it goes, sorry, back to your question. So when I see people as either 60 or 90 minute visit, depending if it's one or two, and we ask

I mean, I ask a lot of questions. First, I just kind of give them the floor. I'm like, share your story with me. Like, tell me, right? I think intuition's so important. And a lot of times, like couples end up telling me what I need to hear in that first part, because they're just, they don't even know it's like this most important thing, but I'm like, whoa, like that was huge. Like, okay, writing that down. Then I ask a lot of questions that like, will branch off of what they share with me. And then we dive into, you know, family history, their own history.

Michelle (17:53)

Yeah.

Samantha Briguglio (18:05)

you know, general review of systems, which basically means checking in with every, from like head to toe, every single system of the body. And we have them answer questions like, are you bloated? Yes or no, right? On the female side of things, definitely diving into the menstrual cycle, like a full dive in. Usually it takes us like, sometimes 15 to 20 minutes just to talk about the cycle, which probably seems like a lot, but like, no, I ask a lot. I ask like questions from like, what size are your clots to

Michelle (18:27)

Yeah.

Samantha Briguglio (18:34)

how many tampons do you fill to tell me about all of your symptoms and like the timeline that you have them within your cycle. So we really take a deep dive into that. Um, and then, you know, from there I kind of compile, like all their symptoms, come up with the ideas for the labs that I want to draw. And then based off symptoms and labs, we form a treatment plan. Um, based off all of that.

Michelle (19:00)

Are there some common labs that you usually, almost for everybody use, or one test that you typically feel like everybody should take? I know it's kind of like a one-size-fits-all, but...

Samantha Briguglio (19:12)

Yeah, you know, no, for sure. Right? Yeah. Like, I know what you're trying to say. You're like, I know it's individualized, but what are labs that are for everyone? Yeah. So yes, and I tell a lot of people that right, because I'm like, you can go get all these basic labs, but I might be asking for you to get other labs based off what you tell me. So just be prepared to go twice. So a lot of time, they just have people wait to come get labs. So they're not going back and forth. Because that takes time. And I'm like, I'm like the person that like, I just want to do all at once.

Michelle (19:18)

Yes.

Yeah.

Samantha Briguglio (19:41)

Um, but there's going to be the classic, the day three of your cycle. So third day of bleeding and then seven days after a predicted ovulation labs, the day three ones are going to be like the estradiol, the FSH, the LH, the seven days after ovulation would be progesterone. Um, usually with like the day three lab, I also order, um, like a CBC, a CMP. So that's like your, your blood counts looking at red blood cells, white blood cells, the CMP is kind of looking at kidney, kidney liver.

Michelle (19:41)

Yeah.

Samantha Briguglio (20:09)

and then like lipid panel looking at like cholesterol. So just like those basics are always really nice. I do, I used to wait to order insulin, but now I'm just starting to do it more for everyone just because there's just been, like it's really hard to guesstimate who's gonna be having elevated insulin because I've ordered it on some people that I'm like, I just feel like I need to order it. And then it comes back super high. I'm like, okay, they are not a typical candidate for insulin.

Michelle (20:21)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Samantha Briguglio (20:36)

But like I ordered it and they have like an insulin of 24, which is like way over my range of what I like to see it in, right? So I kind of started doing that one a lot. Obviously a thyroid focusing on like the TSH, free T4, free T3, thyroid antibodies. And then another one I actually also really like, vitamin D, cause that can be in relation to like miscarriage and loss. So just making sure that's elevated in general.

Michelle (20:37)

Bye.

Yes.

Samantha Briguglio (21:06)

I do an AMH if they haven't gotten one done. That one, obviously I wouldn't get for guides too, but so far all the other ones that I've listed can also be for men. And then another one that I think I would do for a lot of people would also be ferritin. So ferritin is a lot lower in a lot of people now. It's the storage form of iron. It's something that...

Michelle (21:24)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Samantha Briguglio (21:32)

the more research I've done, the more I'm seeing that, they always talk about iron being too low and can cause like a bunch of issues in pregnancy and then also to try to conceive, but people forget that ferritin is a storage form and if it's lower, usually that means that we are actually low, we're giving all our storage to like the active form. And so we wanna make sure that's elevated enough and there's a lot that can go into that, but that's been another one that I've been

Michelle (21:56)

Mm-hmm.

Samantha Briguglio (22:01)

doing a lot of research on lately and most people, it comes back super low. So it's just kind of where I just started doing it. I used to only do it. Yeah, they ignore all the time. And it's something that I would only do for those who had like a heavy menstrual cycle or history of endometriosis or like a gut health issue where they had problems of absorption. But now I'm just like starting to do it more often for everyone because.

Michelle (22:06)

Oh, interesting. It's actually something that a lot of people ignore. They like totally overlook.

Samantha Briguglio (22:24)

Again, it's like most, a lot of people are having it super low. So I'm like, okay. And with ferritin though, then you have to go into, sorry, I'm like totally like going on a rant here, but I'm like, I have to finish it out. Yeah. Well, but I'm like with ferritin it's nice too, because first you can treat it with like iron and like vitamin C, right? Like see if that's, that's the culprit. And then you test it and if it's gone up, usually that is the issue, but it can also be due to like

Michelle (22:34)

Oh no, I do the same thing. That's how I always think. I go everywhere.

Samantha Briguglio (22:52)

Like low ferritin can be due to chronic inflammation or an underlying like disease or like virus or bacteria in your system that you need to figure out to treat. And so sometimes I'll just do the iron first and then we can go to the other piece if we, if it's not working, cause that means that there's definitely something else going on.

Michelle (22:57)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, I mean, interesting, you know, talking about iron. What I find interesting about it, and I remember like listening to a podcast and they talked about how it's better to have things like beef liver, like through foods, because it has a well-rounded combination of nutrients that helps iron absorb better versus when you're just taking iron and sometimes the body doesn't know what to do with it. And it just kind of, it almost gets toxic, the amount of iron because it's not.

Samantha Briguglio (23:40)

Yes, yes, it's totally can.

Michelle (23:42)

Yeah, so let's talk about that because I think it's really important to talk about because people might be like, oh, you know, if that's what it is, let me just take iron. But like, that's not always the solution.

Samantha Briguglio (23:53)

No, you're totally right. I mean, obviously like a beef liver on eating more meat cooking with a cast iron pan There's the good old fat. There's the good old fashion iron fish like there's so many different things you can do um some people Usually I give iron to people who have a hard time incorporating like meat or have a hard time cooking like it's very individualized Right, like it's you kind of have to meet the patient where they're at um, but things that I will recommend for iron and

Michelle (24:00)

Right, yeah.

Yeah.

Samantha Briguglio (24:20)

Just clarification, this is not medical advice. This is just things I like to do in my practice. But I like to do actually, there's a lot of studies on dosing iron every other day actually is helpful for absorption, pairing it with vitamin C. So that either means like eating an orange or getting a supplement that has vitamin C in it or taking vitamin C with the iron. That's gonna, and those things make a big difference, right? So they sound little.

Michelle (24:24)

Yeah, yes.

Samantha Briguglio (24:49)

A lot of people worry about constipation with iron and that's where they're like, oh, that can be an issue too. So if you just eat it, it'll be better. Eating it's always gonna be better. I'll never take away from that. But just cause we're also on the side of supplementation, there's different forms of iron. And I like an iron bisglycinate form that's actually absorbed a little bit easier and usually doesn't cause constipation. I say usually because I had to get a constipation one time. I was shocked, but it did.

Michelle (25:14)

Mm hmm.

Okay. Yeah.

Samantha Briguglio (25:17)

And so that's where I'm like, let's just really focus on like cooking with the cast iron and iron fish and like the, let's have, let's eat meat, right? Like, let's try, I mean, the leafy greens, people talk about that all the time. They can be helpful, but they're not digested. They're just, they don't, they're not in our body. Yeah. It's not the same.

Michelle (25:26)

Yeah.

It's not the same.

And then on the other hand too, like, I mean, I have like one patient that...

Her doctor said, stay away from eggs, stay away from red meat, because your cholesterol is high. So I wanted to talk to you about that, because I know that there's like this school of thought that just avoid all the things that have cholesterol and you'll be good. Or why is the cholesterol in there in the first place? Could it be covering up an underlying inflammation? Because in Ayurvedic medicine, they talk about like, vata pitta kafa, I don't know if you're familiar with like the different elements.

Samantha Briguglio (26:04)

Oh yeah, oh yeah.

Michelle (26:06)

Yeah, yeah. So when something gets really inflamed, they say kafa, which is a little bit more of that moist, heavy substance, comes over to protect. So the same thing with amyloid, with Alzheimer's possibly. Is it because, does it come in to protect something? It's like this coating, same thing with cholesterol. So does that come in to coat the walls because there's inflammation?

Samantha Briguglio (26:33)

So I feel like I have to answer a couple other things before I answer that question. One of the things is I don't think cholesterol is the villain that it used to be. So there's a lot of studies that say like, more cholesterol is better than not enough cholesterol. And cholesterol is needed to build, it's a building block for our hormones and things like that.

Michelle (26:47)

Mmm.

Samantha Briguglio (26:52)

cholesterol is needed. People villainize it so much, but even the bad versus the good, the HDL is the good, the LDL is the bad, we still need LDL cholesterol. These things our body needs. One of the theories, and it's a more recent one, but it's still a few years old now, is that it's not actually the amount of cholesterol that's an issue. It's more related to if there is inflammation or not.

If you're saying, on one end you're like, is the cholesterol being there as like a protective thing for inflammation? Or is cholesterol being that elevated not as terrible as we think it is, but we need to make sure that like the inflammation is monitored and reduced? That's always like a big question. And then another one is like looking at ratios. Like cholesterol ratios are actually the most important thing, right? So,

Okay, we could have elevated, you know, LDL or total cholesterol and triglycerides. But what if we have like an HDL that's like in the eighties or 85 or something? That's to me, if we have a cholesterol that's even like, you know, it seems to be extremely over the limit, but we have this really strong HDL, like maybe it's not as big of an issue as we think it is. Right.

Michelle (28:10)

Mm-hmm.

Samantha Briguglio (28:16)

Also a lot of times instead of eating things that have less cholesterol, I usually just encourage eating more fiber. So fiber actually binds with cholesterol and then we just poop it out. So like instead of like limiting all these things, I'm like maybe you're just not eating enough fiber. Maybe it's the other thing. Maybe it's not that you're eating too much of something. Maybe it's a lot. Maybe it could be either a combo or maybe it's you're not eating enough fiber, which most people don't. Right? Because fibers and like veggies and things like that.

Michelle (28:23)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Samantha Briguglio (28:44)

So it's like maybe we just need more fiber, nourish the liver a little bit more, and then our cholesterol issue goes away. So sometimes it's kind of a combo. Sometimes yes, it might be accompanied by the inflammation. Maybe is it the chicken or the egg, right? Is it the inflammation that's causing cholesterol or is it cholesterol that's causing more inflammation? At the end of the day, I feel like we truly don't know that answer 100% yet, because different studies keep coming out on it, but.

Michelle (28:44)

Right.

Bye.

Bye.

Samantha Briguglio (29:10)

Overall, I would say my biggest thing and my biggest recommendations to treating cholesterol are actually by nourishing the liver and eating enough fiber. Obviously, if they have a really bad, high fatty diet with like really bad fats, like unsaturated fats, then that's an earth saturated fat. I'm like, wait a minute. What I said was wrong.

Michelle (29:19)

Yeah.

Saturated fence, yeah. You know what it is? We talk too much about this all the time and it's just our brain's like, uh?

Samantha Briguglio (29:39)

Yeah, I totally my brain was like, whoopsies, at least I caught it quickly. Whew. Um, you know, basically we do want to limit that limit that, right? But like eliminating the good fats, like avocado and eggs and stuff. Like that's, that's not what we want to do. That was a big rant, but there we go.

Michelle (29:43)

You did.

Yeah.

No, I mean, I will say like, you know, when people say I can't have eggs, I can't have the yellow of eggs. I'm such a great food. But then of course, I'm always afraid to say, don't do what your doctor said. Like I will never say that. It's just, you know, so I wanted to get your opinion on it because you hear just so many different opinions on everything that it gets very confusing. And then sometimes the mainstream opinion isn't updated.

Samantha Briguglio (30:09)

Right.

Right. No, they say it takes 10 years in medicine from an article coming out to making actual changes. And then by the time that happens, there's a new article that comes out.

Michelle (30:24)

I'm finding that like, yeah.

Yes. then of course, you don't want to, again, step on other people's toes and you're like, well, I kind of remember hearing a study that says the opposite of this, you know, and I'm not talking about this specifically, I'm just saying in general. So sometimes, you just get so many different perspectives. But then of course, as a practitioner, you have to be very careful as to what you're

Samantha Briguglio (30:45)

Yeah.

Michelle (30:54)

suggesting and you don't want to go cross basically somebody's other treatment plan with their practitioner, that kind of thing. So I'm sure you know exactly what I'm talking about.

Samantha Briguglio (31:06)

Totally. Yeah. And you know, I also just give patients options. I'm like, we can try this and let's monitor. Let's like do this way for a couple of months and then get your labs drawn and then do this way for a couple of months and get your labs. Like we can, you know, if their cholesterol isn't like in scary high levels, then I'm like, it's like we have room here. There's room. I'm like, how long do you think your cholesterol has been like this? Like we don't have to like change things tomorrow. Like we can just start slowly working on it. Like I said, if it's not in a dangerous place, but

Michelle (31:12)

Yes.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Samantha Briguglio (31:35)

Usually it's not. And so I think the fiber thing is honestly the most underrated thing there is. And then, yeah, and then eliminating the bad fats versus and keeping the good fats. Because the good fats are what keep your HDL high and they're helpful for that really good ratio. So we don't wanna eliminate the good stuff, we wanna eliminate the bad stuff.

Michelle (31:37)

Yeah.

That's a good point, yeah.

Right. So the good stuff meaning avocados, salmon, you know, like good. Yeah.

Samantha Briguglio (32:06)

eggs, nuts, you know. Yeah, that's, yeah, exactly.

Michelle (32:12)

very important information. So, foods, I think that that's a huge thing because a lot of, we just don't, we're not conditioned to eat healthy. I just feel like there's a, you know, this quick fix and a lot of processed foods and people don't have the time or the energy to cook.

But that's one thing that I've at least seen that has been a little bit more difficult is really implementing a new way of living because it's so intricately connected to our behavior and it impacts inflammation, it impacts fertility like in so many ways. And then also like certain food additives that can impact gut microbiome, like thickeners,

Samantha Briguglio (32:48)

Yeah.

I know and now there's like this thing that where it's like natural and holistic medicine is like kind of trending Like let's just like call it what it is, right? Which is cool because when I first started I would tell people what I do and they have no idea Like no one knew what I was gonna do Yes, it's more mainstream, which is awesome

Michelle (33:02)

Mm-hmm.

Yes, we're becoming mainstream.

Yeah.

Samantha Briguglio (33:16)

But now it's like also been taken to the extreme. So I'm like, oh goodness, now we're like flying on this other side where it's like, oh God, like everyone's eliminating everything and like, it's just been crazy. And so now people come to me and they think I'm like chill. They're like, that's it? I'm like, yeah. And I'm gonna.

Michelle (33:33)

Wait, so tell me, tell me, what do you say typically? What are your big things that people should pay attention to and what kind of things should they be a little more lax on?

Samantha Briguglio (33:44)

Yeah, so like the thing I'm most strict about is sleep. I will always be like sleep over everything, sleep rules. Sleep is like, you will not, if you wake up early to sleep, your workout, your workout's not gonna be as effective than it would have been if you just like slept a little bit longer and then maybe try to get like a shorter workout in, right? Like it's, things like that, I will always stand by sleep first, always, always. Second, honestly, diet and movement.

Michelle (33:50)

Yeah.

Samantha Briguglio (34:15)

They're kind of linked for me now. It always used to be diet first, then movement, but now there's just so many, like there's so many people going through a lot of like stress and like mental health struggles that, yes, I can help with, but I feel like movement just helps set the tone for so many people's day where it like allows them, they move, it like allows them to like follow up with more healthy habits. So it's like this weird, you know what I'm saying?

Michelle (34:39)

Oh, yeah, it's somatic. I mean, yes, because we were talking about how your emotions are very much tied to your body. That's why somatic therapy is so powerful. Probably another step over talk therapy, which is why things like yoga really impact the mind because when you're moving, you're sort of processing emotions and emotional states.

Samantha Briguglio (34:50)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Michelle (35:07)

in a different way. And it also helps you cognitively. I mean, there's just, so movements like very underrated.

Samantha Briguglio (35:13)

Yeah, well, and they, cause they only, people, I feel like we're only looking at it from like a, what does movement do to your body versus what diet does do to your body, right? And, but we're forgetting like the, oh, if I move and I feel good and I'm happier throughout the day, I'm more likely to like pick the healthier choices and eat the healthier foods than, and get restful sleep and all these other things. So honestly, they're kind of tied for me. Sometimes movement ranges up. I don't know, you know.

Michelle (35:33)

True.

Yeah. But I also say if you're getting good sleep, you're going to be less likely to grab that sugary snack. Yeah.

Samantha Briguglio (35:50)

That's exactly so this is where it's kind of like all of it matters a lot, but that's why sleep is like number one for me um But sleep so like obviously the diet and the movement piece But when it comes to diet, I feel like a lot of people are really strict now There are so many bad foods. Yes, there are so many seed oils and all of that But I feel like now people are going on the other side of getting really stressed out about what they're eating how much they're eating

Michelle (35:56)

Yeah.

Samantha Briguglio (36:15)

you know, making sure they're getting all their nutrients in. Now I'm like, oh God, we've like over-corrected for a lot of people now that are in this wellness space. I'm like, okay, we need to like chill out a little bit. Like not everyone needs to eliminate gluten and dairy. If it bothers you, eliminate it. If you have an issue with it, eliminate it. If you're allergic to it, eliminate it. But like, if you eat it and you feel fine, like let's just not cut out another food, right? You know.

Michelle (36:15)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Samantha Briguglio (36:42)

A lot of practitioners believe that like no one should eat that and dairy is super inflammatory. And I'm like, well, yeah, but like quality matters always. If you're getting a good organic dairy, that would be helpful for some people.

Michelle (36:49)

It's true. Yeah. Same thing with organic weed because it's not sprayed with glyphosate. I think that that's a big thing too. I mean, I'll be honest, I mean, it's just the world we're living in right now. It's a little bit of an uphill battle, but I agree with you that it can almost manifest, and I've talked about this before, it can almost manifest very similar to an eating disorder.

Samantha Briguglio (37:02)

Okay.

Yes.

Michelle (37:15)

I mean, because people get so upset and it really impacts them how they're eating. So it's a fine line of having a balanced perspective on food.

Samantha Briguglio (37:27)

Yeah, yeah, it's orthorexia that it's literally actually has a technical name now and that means you're so stressed about eating healthy You either like just won't eat at all Which is actually not good for women. They'll say like for men It's actually better to fast than eat the unhealthy thing But for a lot of women it's better to like actually eat the unhealthy thing than to fast for too long fasting still. Okay but that's sorry, that's a whole nother conversation, but um Yeah, so I go from the approach of 80-20 rule

Michelle (37:33)

Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Yes.

Samantha Briguglio (37:57)

and making it sustainable. So I'll tell my patients like all the time, I'm like, you're not a perfect person. You can't be perfect all the time. And if you're gonna stress about being perfect all the time, that's a whole nother thing we have to deal with. So instead, let's give you freedom to live your life. I go out, I go out and eat french fries, like all the time, I love french fries. Like I guarantee those are not always fried in like olive oil or whatever. They're definitely fried in probably like a seed oil or canola, like I know that, but I love them.

Michelle (38:17)

Me too. It's good. Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Samantha Briguglio (38:26)

But the rest of the time, you know, I get my movement in, I'm drinking tons of water, I'm sleeping like nightly, like I take care of my mental and emotional health, like I'm doing all these other things that, so when I eat the French fries, it's not that big of a deal. I'm like, yeah. And so that's where I want people to feel free now.

Michelle (38:37)

Mm-hmm.

Right, I get, no, I get what you're saying.

Samantha Briguglio (38:50)

They can be as careful as they want as long as it doesn't cause like chronic stress. Like if avoiding all of that stuff actually helps you and relieve stress, great. But for majority of people I've seen, it really causes a lot more stress. So I become very picky about a couple of things and then I kind of just say, I'll help you with the other stuff, right? Like eliminating sugar, that's a big one. That one to me is a bigger deal than like the dairy and the gluten, right? So for me, I'll be like, okay, let's eliminate

Michelle (39:12)

Mm-hmm.

Samantha Briguglio (39:19)

Let's reduce sugar, but I'll give them ways to reduce it. How do we make our own healthy Reese's cup at home? That's not gonna be bad. You can have a couple Reese's cup, honestly a day if you're making them out of organic dark chocolate and organic peanut butter that has only, the only thing is in it is peanuts. I'm not always worried about that then. And they'll be like, oh, okay, I'll make those. I love to cook or I love to bake, great.

Michelle (39:27)

Mm-hmm.

Samantha Briguglio (39:49)

I'm like, awesome. So like, boom, like that's already helping their sugar habits, right? Talking about pairing foods, like instead of taking away, taking away, taking away, more like add in, right? Like if they really like their smoothie in the morning that has all this stuff in it, they say smoothie is not that great and it's not good on the stomach and all of these things. I know in Chinese medicine, it's actually probably not good at all because they say you wanna start with like warm, right? Like they're like, let's, we want.

Michelle (40:14)

But you know, it's funny that you say that because I do tell people the 80-20 rule as well, but I do that with raw. So like if they love their smoothie, fine, but just make it like 20% and that's your 20%. You know, or if you're like, if you're having smoothies and then a ton of salads and then all this raw stuff, fine, then that starts to add up. But I say the same thing.

leave it out for a little bit so that it's not freezing like frozen. Just kind of like let's do this balanced.

Samantha Briguglio (40:44)

Yeah, and sometimes I'll be like make it a little bit thicker. So like let's maybe add some oats or some chia seeds or some more veggies to it to add some fiber and then like maybe eat it with a spoon instead. So that's getting those like chewing mechanisms going. We're really just starting our digestive system a little bit more than just drinking something. But you can compromise. Yeah, you can compromise and just add things in. You don't have to like completely take away everything. And I think a lot of people.

Michelle (41:03)

Right. That's a good point. You want those enzymes.

Yeah.

Samantha Briguglio (41:13)

or shocked by that, surprised by it, but they like also kind of love it because it's like, whoa, this is actually doable.

Michelle (41:19)

It feels good. It feels safer, first of all. It doesn't feel as pressure filled. And it also is, like I know from a mindset, from a subconscious mind thing, because I studied hypnotherapy, I feel like behavior and like our, what is it that stops us from changing habits? You know, like we all have habits and we repeat,

Samantha Briguglio (41:23)

Mm-hmm.

Michelle (41:44)

And one of the biggest almost like laws is that you cannot create a vacuum. And that's why it never works to just stop anything. So you have to just substitute. So I love that you said that like intuitively you're almost like realizing that about the mind. If you're giving the mind a substitute or instead of this, then have that, but it's kind of similar and then it's much easier to start a new habit that way.

Samantha Briguglio (41:50)

Mm-hmm.

Yep.

Yeah, and you just have to give people kind of a chance instead of saying like, do this, do that. You're just like, okay, let's add, or let's, yeah, like you said, substitute. So, very, I'm also very passionate about that, as you can see.

Michelle (42:22)

Hmm. I love that.

Yes. Yeah. Well, I mean, you know, these things are important for people to Because once you have this information, you have a lot more empowerment. And I feel like people just don't have that information. everybody deserves to know that. I love this conversation. I mean, I can keep talking to you for hours, but obviously we have like a limit on time.

But I definitely love picking your brain on these things. And I think that you have a really nice balance on how you look at it. So for people who do want to work with you or like learn more about you, how can they find you?

Samantha Briguglio (42:52)

Thanks.

Yeah, well, we kind of talked about Instagram earlier. That's a very easy way. Walk the natural path on Instagram. I do have a website. It's also walk the natural path. So anything with that, your odds are you're gonna find me somewhere. So you can reach out, yeah, in DMs. Sometimes I'm a little bit slower. So sometimes I recommend filling out like a new patient form or booking a consultation call with me so you can chat a little bit about like your case and then what I can do to help or if I feel like we're a good fit.

Michelle (43:16)

I love it.

So you help people virtually too. I just want to mention that, not just locally. Awesome.

Samantha Briguglio (43:35)

Yeah. Yep. Virtually too. Yes.

Michelle (43:40)

Also, so what was the inspiration to walk the natural path? Because I see you actually walking many natural paths and hiking, and I think that's so cool because you do a lot of like nature walks.

Samantha Briguglio (43:52)

Yes, oh my gosh, such a passion of mine. I honestly like I used to do like one a week for sure I need to get back to it. Since the wedding has been a little crazy. But walk the natural path actually came from the idea of creating an Instagram to help promote natural medicine before it kind of dove into this like mainstream thing, right? And

I don't know, the name just like came to me, which was actually pretty crazy because I feel like I'm not the most creative person. So for that to happen, I was like, oh, this is it. And then it just kind of took off. And then when I switched the Instagram over to my business, it just, I think it just stuck and it was close to my heart. And my name is Dr. Samantha Berguglia, which is very, very long. And I was like, a lot of people just go by like.

Like my bestie is like Dr. Sienna Miller. I'm like, that's so cute, that's short. And that's kind of like what her business is. And she has a different title now, but I just, I decided to go with it and it stuck. And like you said, it's part of who I am. I walked nature trails all the time.

Michelle (44:51)

us.

Because I see you walking nature trails, which by the way, that's a whole other topic. But I think that doing that is also really good for our health.

Samantha Briguglio (45:05)

Yeah, in our hearts and yes, but I guess really what it's about though is it's saying like I'm walking the natural path to like healing Like at the end of the day, it's like always walking This natural path and natural though can mean anything to anybody, right? So not to get on a whole nother convo, but just to wrap it up it can mean You know the like the actual natural medicine that everyone really thinks about but it's the natural path for you So that could also be like combining

Michelle (45:13)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Samantha Briguglio (45:35)

conventional IVF plus natural medicine. That can be your natural path. So it's what feels natural to you. It's kind of supposed to be interpreted, but yeah.

Michelle (45:47)

I love it. Well, that's a great note to end with. And this is an awesome conversation. I'm so glad we finally met. I know we were like DMing each other back and forth on Instagram for a while and following each other. And then I was like, I got to get her on the podcast. I really like the stuff that she's putting out. So thank you so much for coming on here, Dr. B.

Samantha Briguglio (46:07)

Aw, thanks for having me. This has been wonderful.

EP 278 Egg & Sperm Health, Post Pill Conception Prep and More with Lisa H. Jack

Lisa Hendrickson-Jack is a certified Fertility Awareness Educator and Holistic Reproductive Health Practitioner who teaches women to chart their menstrual cycles for natural birth control, conception, and monitoring overall health. She is the author of three bestselling books The Fifth Vital Sign, the Fertility Awareness Mastery Charting Workbook, and her most recent book Real Food For Fertility, which she co-authored with Lily Nichols RDN. Lisa works tirelessly to debunk the myth that regular ovulation is only important when you want children by recognizing the menstrual cycle as a vital sign. Drawing heavily from the current scientific literature, Lisa presents an evidence-based approach to help women connect to their fifth vital sign by uncovering the connection between the menstrual cycle, fertility, and overall health. With well over 4 million downloads, her podcast, Fertility Friday, is the #1 source for information about fertility awareness and menstrual cycle health.

Fertility Friday: fertilityfriday.com

Real Food For Fertility: realfoodforfertility.com

The Fifth Vital Sign: thefifthvitalsignbook.com

Instagram: @FertilityFriday

Facebook: Facebook.com/FertilityFridays

LinkedIn: Lisa Hendrickson-Jack

For more information about Michelle, visit www.michelleoravitz.com

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support:

https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

Transcript:

Michelle (00:00)

So welcome to the podcast, Lisa.

Lisa Jack (00:03)

Thanks so much for having me back.

Michelle (00:05)

Yes. So having you back again, we had a little mishap, issue with the recording for some reason, but we are on a new recording software. So hopefully this is going to be great and I'm excited to pick your brain again.

Lisa Jack (00:21)

Well, I'm happy to be here. I mean we can never anticipate the tax nafus. It's part of online business, I suppose.

Michelle (00:28)

Oh, totally. 100%. So we had so many good things too. That's what's really frustrating. We had such a great conversation about so many things. But for people who are first hearing about this, I know that a lot of people think that there's certain textbooks like menstrual cycles, or they have like sort of an idea in their mind of what a perfect menstrual cycle looks like. And since this is...

your absolute specialty and you understand it from like A to Z, can you describe what a healthy menstrual cycle should look like?

Lisa Jack (01:06)

Yeah, I mean, that's a great place to start. And just to put it out there when I'm working with clients and practitioners, I always say there's no such thing as a perfect menstrual cycle because you're a human, not a robot. And so when we look at what a healthy menstrual cycle looks like, we should be looking at a range. And basically, what I can lay out is the different parameters that we're looking at. Often when I talk about the menstrual cycle, people's minds will go straight to the period.

Michelle (01:17)

Right?

Lisa Jack (01:34)

and they'll kind of think, okay, well, what is a healthy period? But then they don't necessarily think about all the other parameters. So when we're looking at what makes a healthy menstrual cycle, we can look at the overall cycle length, which ideally would be somewhere between about 24 and 35 days. We can look at the pre -ovulatory phase in particular. So we can look at the period. So the period is its own category. We want to have a menstrual period that overall is somewhere between three to seven days with an average of about five days.

And I always say the period should be like a sentence. It should have a beginning, a middle, and an end, and then it should be over. So if it's like trailing on for days and days of bleeding, if you're getting bleeding throughout your whole cycle, as opposed to just when you have your period, these are things we should be looking at. And although it's really common to have several days of spotting before you start your actual bleed, it's not optimal. So it's helpful to understand that piece of it. And then in terms of pain,

Michelle (02:08)

I love that, that's so good.

Lisa Jack (02:32)

It's also extremely common for women to experience menstrual pain. And so there's always this question of like, is it normal or not? And there is debate. So there are definitely people who are more on the like, it's normal kind of, you know, because so many people have it. So it has to be normal. But, you know, outside of your period, pain is thought of as a problem. And so if you thought of any man in your life, anyone, your father, brother, cousin, whoever, friend, boyfriend, if he had pain in his period, in his penis for.

Michelle (03:01)

in this period you imagine.

Lisa Jack (03:02)

Right? But if he had pain in his penis for two to three days every month, such that he needed to take medication and possibly couldn't go to work if the medication didn't kick in, no one would think that that's okay. So that's also just a bit of an aside where when we look at what's happening during a menstrual bleed, it is a natural inflammatory process by which you shed that lining. And so in order for your uterus to shed that lining, there does have to be some inflammation. And we do have...

prostaglandins that we produce that help to induce those smooth muscle contractions to make this all happen. So what's interesting is that when we look at what the research says, women who have pain, they have a higher level of these prostaglandins. So they have a higher outside of normal inflammatory response. So at very least, pain with menstruation that's moderate to severe is a sign of increased inflammation, something we should be aware of. And at worst, it could be a sign of a more serious condition like endometriosis.

So as an aside, although common, we want to consider moderate to severe pain to be not optimal. And we want to be looking a little bit deeper into that. And for many women, they often need that nudge to do so, especially if they've had pain very consistently from their first period, for example. So outside of the period then, when we move into the actual, like the rest of the pre -ovulatory phase, we want to look at when ovulation is happening.

So in order to have a cycle that falls within that 24 to 35 day range, we do need ovulation to happen typically somewhere between days 10 and days 22 or days 23. So approximately. So we want to be looking at when ovulation is taking place. And as you approach ovulation, you're supposed to be making some healthy cervical fluid. And typically we would expect to see that for about two to seven days leading up to ovulation. So we want to look at the quality of that, how many days you're seeing. Like if you're not seeing any at all, that can be a sign of.

low hormones or an issue with your cervix. If you see it all the time, that can be a sign of something as simple as a yeast infection or something more serious potentially. So it's helpful to even know that that's a thing. And then after ovulation, that period of time, the post -ovulatory phase or luteal phase, as we call it, should be about 12 to 14 days. And so if it's, you know, seven days, that's a problem that could impede your chances of conception. It's a sign of extremely low progesterone. If you have...

moderate to severe PMS symptoms, if you have spotting, as I had mentioned previously before your period. So like interesting, right? Because you asked a pretty simple question, what does a healthy cycle look like? So I think what's good about this, just to kind of pull it back then, is that we're not looking for any one factor to be perfect. Within each of those factors I listed, there's a bit of a range. And so you could potentially have one of those aspects that's a little bit off, but overall, the rest of it is pretty strong.

And so that can help you to understand that you don't need to have a perfect cycle for it to be healthy. We just need to have it for the most part fall into those parameters.

Michelle (05:58)

For sure. And I also look at like, you know, as a practitioner, I look at like what's normal for you, because some people have always had a short cycle, but they're normal. Or, you know, it's usually when things become out of whack for you, or it's kind of like not like you're, they almost have like personalities, menstrual cycles, right?

Lisa Jack (06:17)

Yes. Well, and I agree with you to a point because I used to be one of those people that was like, my cycles are long and that's normal because my cycles are always long. Right. So when I first started training, so I think there's a balance between understanding what the normal parameters are to make sure you're within them and then understanding what your normal is. And absolutely, when you're used to experiencing ovulation, you know, in a certain range and all of a sudden it's like 20 days later, yes, we need to be looking at that. But.

Michelle (06:27)

Mm -hmm.

Right.

Lisa Jack (06:46)

because of my own experience and what I've seen with many clients, there's a lot of things that we can experience a lot, like period pain is a good example, or even that pre -evaluatory spotting where we can just tell ourselves, well, I always experience that, that's totally normal, but it might not be. Yes. Yeah.

Michelle (06:58)

I'm not talking about abnormal though. I'm talking about within like 26, like say you have a 26 day cycle and that just tends to be your thing. As long as it's not abnormal or within like sort of a more like red alarm position.

Lisa Jack (07:11)

Yes. Yes. No, I tend to be I tend to be like, because I because this is what I do, right? Like I'm like lazery. So I'm like, well, the 20 days, 26 day cycle is within the normal range. But you could have a 29 day cycle or a 28 day cycle. That is actually problematic. Like you could let me give you an example. You could have a 28 day cycle where you're ovulating on day 20 with an eight day luteal. Right. So so this is why it's helpful to look at the whole picture.

Michelle (07:29)

Right.

Bye.

100%. I think that what you do is very important. And, you know, looking at like the temperature, looking at the cervical mucus, looking at, well, possibly position, but like really understanding it in a way that has a different lens. Because for me, at least, I know that I really appreciate when patients come in and they do their BBT charting. Why? Because I look at the yin and the yang. And if it's too low, that tells me a lot. Usually when,

Lisa Jack (07:55)

Yeah.

Michelle (08:09)

The luteal phase, which is more of the yang part of the cycle, yang mean more heating. Yin is more cooling and moist. So that's kind of like more of the estrogen aspect of it. And it's pretty wild when you can actually see that. What we learned in textbooks actually being reflected in the menstrual cycle. But when we see that as practitioners and we can really look at it, I really appreciate being able to see that chart because it helps us.

see much more and a lot of other practitioners in the same boat, like they see what I'm talking about. It just helps you to understand it at a different And unfortunately, some people are very resistant to doing it because they say when I do my BBT, and I want to actually address it because I want to see what your thoughts on this. Sometimes people say that if they start to look and like kind of chart their cycle,

that it throws their cycle off and that they get really stressed out. Yeah. So then I'm like, okay, well, you know, what's the balance, you know, of trying it? And I say, just try it out. It's not forever. Like just see what it shows you. And then maybe it'll regulate as you're doing it. And I think that there's this resistance to it. Like they're almost overly focused on it and it stresses them out.

Lisa Jack (09:10)

Interesting.

Mm -hmm.

Michelle (09:32)

So I wanted to get your thoughts on that.

Lisa Jack (09:35)

Yeah, well, I think the couple of things came to mind. So the first thing that came to mind when you said that, like, when I do it, it throws my cycle off. I think that that was interesting. That's interesting because that could be something a bit different. That could be that you thought your cycles were so, you know, perfect. And because people do like people think like my cycles are totally regular. Right. When you're not charting, you're like, yeah, it's always like 20 days. Like, yeah, because this is like how we think. But then as soon as you look at it, it's not it's not no one cycle is 20 days for a year.

I will put money on that. It's just not, if you're actually tracking.

Michelle (10:06)

No, no, they still used like an app to track the numbers. So they knew what their numbers were, but they didn't do like the BBT and like a little bit more in depth.

Lisa Jack (10:15)

Yep. Well, I guess what I'm, so I guess the thought that I had around that was that when you actually start to look, you see not necessarily that things are wrong, but you just see more of the nuance that you weren't looking for before. And so you may not have been aware of certain nuances that were happening because if you're not tracking it, you wouldn't be aware of those nuances. That was the first thing that came to mind. The second question I think is interesting.

For a couple of reasons. So now that I work with practitioners when you have your own modality as a practitioner, you know Then the people that are coming to you are coming to you for that particular modality and This whole charting thing is very niche. It's very specialized and not everybody wants to do it and that's totally okay I think that that's something that's important to remember So when you're as a practitioner seeing the value of charting and if there's a lot of value there

And it's really helpful. I mean, for me, that's all I do. So it's hard for me to imagine how I would support someone without seeing it, because it really is an integral part of everything that I do. But when you get all jazzed about something, it doesn't mean that everyone else is jazzed about it too. So when it comes to then encouraging your clients to chart, coming from all different walks of life and varying levels of interest in this topic, I think that it's important to kind of put that all into perspective. So.

Michelle (11:25)

Mm -hmm.

Lisa Jack (11:40)

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink. I think you can think about your messaging. One of the things that I learned, just because I've been in the field so long, I went through my initial, everybody needs to do this face, you know, 20 years ago, and, you know, trying to ram it down. And I'm not saying that's what anyone's doing. I'm just saying, like, when you first learn about this stuff, it's like you want to, like, literally, like, all your girlfriends, you have to, right? Like, you get into this energy, and some of your girlfriends are like, you need to leave me alone.

Michelle (12:03)

Hahaha.

Lisa Jack (12:06)

right? Because like, I've got this, like, I'm good with the birth control pill, and you need to stop. And that's okay. So the way that I have approached that in my life is that, I mean, now I have my own podcast, right? Like, I talk to people who want to hear about it. And in my personal life, I don't necessarily talk about it. And I have not, I typically don't have the experience where a person is not necessarily at all coming to me for charting, because usually people are coming to me for charting.

Michelle (12:21)

Yeah.

Lisa Jack (12:34)

but I have had varying levels of interest within that. So I've had a lot of clients who are coming to me for conception and they really do want to know what's going on in their cycle. But sometimes the charting does cause a lot of stress, especially depending on what a person is going through. So I've had clients who are super motivated, like dotting all the, you know, eyes, crossing all the T's, writing every little notation and notes and like really, really detailed. And I've also had clients who resist that a bit and they...

They don't necessarily get into the notations a whole lot. And so a lot of what I do in those situations is we have a conversation and talk through it. It's the same stuff. They're just not writing it down. And I try to help them achieve their goals, meeting them where they're at. Like I can think of several clients who weren't necessarily super into those notations, but through our conversations, like they were still checking. They were still observing their cervical fluid. They were still able to time sex accordingly.

And they got a lot out of it. And I really tailored what I was presenting to them to what they needed. And I was always having those check -in conversations. And this is something I talk about with my practitioners, like the whole coaching aspect of it, where you can have your goals. You want to have this person chart, but they can have their own goals. And so sometimes it's like, well, what would success look like for you? You know, I see that you're not really that into the charting or I see that the charting is causing a lot of stress. We don't want more stress. We definitely don't want that. What would make you happy?

Like what would success look like after, you know, our several weeks of working together? And maybe she says, I just wanted to understand how to pick up when like which days I'm fertile. Like I don't want to like write it all down or anything. I just want to be more confident in identifying that. And so, you know, my comment on that is there are lots of ways that we can improve our clients' education and confidence without necessarily going all the way down the charting rabbit hole. So we have to be flexible as practitioners with where our clients are at with these things.

Michelle (14:30)

No, I'm with you and I actually tell them There's a lot of other ways to figure out if you're ovulating. However, I always really enjoy being able to look at the charts because it on a different level.

Lisa Jack (14:44)

as a practitioner, when you have that knowledge, you can still, like it still comes through and they're still getting so much from you.

And I think sometimes it's interesting hearing the charting instructor saying, you know what, if this is stressing you out, then just stop. I've had that conversation with a number of clients over the years where it's like, if this is too much for you, then just stop. Just stop charting for a month or two and see how you feel. And the interesting thing is you stop writing it down. But after you've learned all the stuff about how to identify the fertile, it's not like you're going to stop going pee. So you're going to see your mucus.

and you're still going to have that knowledge and information. You're just finding a way to dance with that information that does not cause more stress.

Michelle (15:28)

Absolutely. So as far as birth control pills,

I know this is another topic you talk about a lot and also just like how that impacts the body. So I'd love for you to talk about like how it impacts the body. And then if somebody's been taking it for a really long and wants to get pregnant after stopping, what are some of the things they should be thinking about?

Lisa Jack (15:52)

Mm -hmm. Love that question because not a lot of We're just not told how the birth control pill works. I was actually listening to someone Kind of a prominent person talk about the birth control pill Yesterday and it was really great because a lot of what she said was on point but she did say, you know, well, you know the pill tricks your body into thinking that you're pregnant and and so these are some of the myths that we still have Today about how the birth control pill works in the body. I

So it's interesting because if we were to compare the state of a woman on birth control, so the state of her natural hormones, the most compatible or comparable state would actually be to a woman in menopause. That makes terrible PR and marketing, so they're not gonna tell you that. And so essentially, the pill, the main mode of action for the most common pill, which is the combined oral contraceptives, so it has a combination of synthetic progestin and synthetic estrogens,

is to suppress ovulation. So that's the main mode of action. And that's really helpful when you're trying to avoid pregnancy, because if you're not ovulating, you can't get pregnant. So in order for it to suppress ovulation, then, it interferes with the conversation that is typically happening between your hypothalamus, pituitary gland, and ovaries. And as a result, the ovaries then become kind of dormant. And so that's why we can think of the menopause as a similar comparison, not pregnancy. Because in pregnancy, we're actually making ridiculous amounts of

progesterone. So compared to the progesterone you make in your menstrual cycle, by the time you're 40 weeks pregnant, you're making 11 times the amount of progesterone. So it's not the same when you're on the pill. It's not a comparable state. And so when women are on the pill, if we were to measure their natural estrogen and progesterone, they would be very low and flat, very consistent. So the first main mode of action is to suppress ovulation.

And then there are other modes of action that work in conjunction. One is to maintain a very thin, flat endometrial lining. And so they measure it with ultrasound and, you in my books, I kind of share some of those numbers because it's quite, quite thin. So even if something were to happen, then there's less of a chance of conception because the endometrium is so thin. And then it also prevents the production of fertile quality cervical fluid. So the sperm then theoretically, like they can't go anywhere because the, the cervix is blocked with this mucus plug all the time.

And those are the modes of action that work together. So when a woman is then on contraceptives for a long time, and, excuse me, interestingly in the research, they define long -term as two years or more. And when you think about most of the women in your life or yourself, many women have used birth control for two years, five years, eight years, 10 years, 15 years, 20 years. So this whole concept of long -term is pretty.

mainstream if they're defining it as two years. So there's a couple different ways that the pill affects the body then. One is that it does have an effect on the menstrual cycle. So when women are coming off the pill, research has shown that it takes anywhere from nine to 12 cycles for all cycles, not months, for all of those menstrual cycle parameters to normalize post -pill. So that includes everything we just talked about, like the overall cycle length, the cervical mucous production,

you know, the luteal phase length. And so it's really common to come off the pill and to have a short luteal phase for it to take several months before the cycle either returns or normalizes. So some women do get their, they start ovulating and having their periods pretty, pretty quick. Others might take a couple of months and then on the, you know, a smaller percentage might take quite a while, but generally speaking, a lot of women get their cycles back within the first few months. But then those first few cycles, often ovulation is delayed. And so some of those cycles,

are quite a bit longer. And then it's also quite common to have a short luteal phase for those first few cycles and to have abnormal cervical amicus patterns. So that's one way that the pill affects the body. Another thing to be aware of is it's well known that when women are on contraceptives, so if you were currently on contraceptives and you did an ovarian reserve test, for example, it suppresses ovarian function. I just said it makes the ovaries dormant. So then it's logical that those...

ovarian reserve parameters are going to be suppressed. And that's what we find in the research. So I think one of the scary stats when women engage with my books is that stat on how when women are on the pill, ovarian volume shrinks by 50%. So it's saying that the pill shrinks your ovaries while you're on them. That sounds awful, right? And then the AMH is low and antral follicle count is low. And what the research tells us...

is that when a woman comes off the pill, it takes about a minimum of six to seven months before those parameters start to normalize again. And interestingly then, why are we not told to come off the pill? Six to a minimum of six months or so before we start trying, we're not, but that's something important to know as well. So I don't see these things to scare you because obviously some women do come off the pill and get pregnant right off the bat. So it's not even to say that you can't.

Michelle (20:46)

Right.

Lisa Jack (21:01)

but we want to acknowledge that there's a temporary period of subfertility post -pill. And so the other way, so I talked about kind of these three ways that the pill affects the body. So I mentioned the menstrual cycle effects on the menstrual cycle. I mentioned the effects on the ovaries and then there's the effect on fertility itself. And so those are the time to pregnancy studies where they look at how long it takes a person to conceive.

And so there was this interesting study that compared women who were using condoms, so non -hormonal methods, to a variety of hormonal methods, including the birth control pill, the shot, the hormonal IUD, and a few others. And in that study, the women who came off the pill, it took them an average of eight months to conceive. The ones who were using the pill, quote, long term, so two years or more, compared to the women who were using condoms, who took an average of four months to conceive. And the shot...

users were the worst offenders and they took an average of about 18 months to conceive after coming off of the shot. And the IUD was about eight months as well, eight to 10 months. So that is interesting information because we're not told that. So it doesn't mean that we need to be afraid that the pill is going to impair our fertility forever, but it does mean that we need to be aware that there's a temporary period of subfertility. So then the recommendation out of that,

Michelle (21:52)

Mm -hmm. Wow.

Right.

Lisa Jack (22:19)

that Lily and I make in real food for fertility is that you should consider coming off of birth control a minimum, I would say a minimum of six to 12 months before you start trying to conceive. And I would add in a caveat that if you did go on the pill because you had menstrual cycle problems, like because you actually knew that there was something wrong, you had long irregular cycles, you never knew when your next period was coming, you had extreme pain with menstruation.

you had extreme mood swings or like, right, like there was some sort of kind of medical reason why you were put on birth control, then you'd want to extend that period. And I would go as far to say 18 months to two years because not because we think you won't be able to get pregnant, but because if there's an underlying issue, the pill doesn't solve it. It masks it. So when you come off of it, you still have to figure out what's going on there if you wanted to conceive naturally. So if you come off well before you're ready, so you're still.

Michelle (23:06)

Mm -hmm.

Lisa Jack (23:16)

Actively avoiding like you have to figure out your birth control and I would recommend a non hormonal birth control option So you still have to be on top of your birth control game? But during that time if your cycle is kind of wonky if things are going awry You actually have time to fix it. You have time to make your appointments You have time to normalize your hormones without the added pressure of also trying to conceive at the exact same time

Michelle (23:40)

Yeah. I mean, it's crazy to me because I have, I can't tell you how many people I've had come in and say, oh, my doctor said the second you get off your birth control pill, even if they've been on it for like 15 to sometimes 20 years, the second you get off, you can get pregnant. You don't have to do anything. And you're telling me the science, you know, it's crazy because they say that they're very based in science and the evidence, but.

Nobody seems to be looking at that

Lisa Jack (24:09)

Well, and there's a couple things I can mention about the science that I think are really interesting. So, I mean, one of the ways, one of the reasons that I am digging into the weeds about this is because often when I'm working with women in real time, I'm seeing this stuff. I'm seeing the menstrual cycle regularities and it's consistent. I've worked with hundreds of women at this point who've come off of birth control in my various programs and you see it. You see these abnormal mucous patterns. You see that it takes time for the cycle to normalize.

Michelle (24:26)

Yeah.

Lisa Jack (24:38)

And so then when you see that stuff, you want to know why. And so that's part of my motivation to look at the research to kind of get that explanation. Because sometimes you see things in clinical practice before you understand why you're seeing them. And then when you actually dig into the research, you're like, OK, this is why. Because the pills, you know, suppressing ovarian function and it takes seven months minimum for that ovarian function to normalize. You know, I had this woman reach out to me. She's like a listener of the podcast.

Michelle (24:49)

Right.

Lisa Jack (25:06)

And she kind of independently had this experience. She came off the pill, she was in her late thirties, and then she got her AMH and her ovarian reserve parameters tested right off the bat because her and her husband wanted to conceive. And they came back so low that they told her, and this is a whole other topic if you want to go into it, because we can, but they told her, okay, your AMH is so low, you won't be able to conceive and all that kind of stuff. And so then she was devastated. It was like a whole thing. She was like, what's going on? And she was trying to do her research. And again, she was listening to the podcast.

And then she ended up independently requesting her ovarian reserve parameters tested several times during the first year after the pill. So I don't have the data in front of me because she actually sent it to me and I invited her on the podcast and we talked about it was a really interesting episode. But so she tested it independently, like whatever it was, four months, six months, like in 12 months, whatever, right? So you get my point. And interestingly, by the 12 month mark, you know, the AMH was...

like rebounded quite well to the doctor's astoundment, if that's a word. And I, it aligns with the research study that I cited in that book. Now in that study, they only went to the six to seven month mark. You know, in her case, she just independently chose to demand these tests and saw the results for herself. And so again, this is, it's really interesting information. So what I wanted to say about the research and what's interesting about it is that,

It's harder to find studies that actually break down the data like month to month, or even just not just at the year mark. Most of the studies, if you look, because I did, and a lot of the newer studies that are coming out, they just tell you at the year mark. And so when you have a study that's saying X percentage of women conceived at the year mark, the pill is a reversible contraceptive method, it's all good. Goodbye, get out of my office. Then that's...

If that's all you're looking at, you're not asking these questions, but it's when you look at the studies that actually break this stuff down, like how things are at the beginning, after two months, three months, five months, six months, eight months, 12 months, that you actually see that, yeah, sure, if we just skip to 12 months, it looks great and it sounds great in a study, it's very succinct. But the emotional damage, my kids always, they have all their slang, emotional damage. So if anyone has like 10 year olds, they're gonna be laughing with me. And everyone who doesn't is like, what is she talking about?

But like the emotional issues that like the very real challenges for a woman in her, you know, let's say late 20s, early 30s, mid 30s, whatever, who has been avoiding pregnancy like the plague her whole life, who's told that she can get pregnant on every day of her cycle, terrified all the time is so scared to come off the pill that she probably delayed it as long as humanly possible because she thought she was going to get pregnant immediately. The amount of stress it causes her.

two months later to still not be pregnant, three months later to still not be pregnant. That is the reason that I look at this research and talk about it in this way. And that is one of the reasons why maybe the medical professionals are not talking about it this way because most of the research just looks at the year mark and says X percent of women conceived, end of story, you're good to go, come off the pill, you'll get pregnant, it's fine.

Michelle (28:19)

really is crazy if you think about it. And because people are really not getting the full picture and they're not getting enough information to really go on. And another thing is also just the nutrient deficiencies, which I know that you guys address in the book. So I want to talk about that as well and why that's so important. What are some of the things that you guys see and like how to address it?

Lisa Jack (28:43)

Mm -hmm. I mean, I think that's such a good question as well because I had thought of it when you were talking before You know just come off the pill and you'll get pregnant, right? That's what your practitioner says and Interestingly, I mean, yes, the goal is to get pregnant but like for me I have three children by this point So it's not just to get pregnant because you could get pregnant and miscarry you can get pregnant have an awful pregnancy It could be a very difficult time where you're feeling really ill and sick and therefore you you're not even able to eat the best

Michelle (29:02)

Right.

Lisa Jack (29:11)

You know, have these plans to eat all this good food during pregnancy. And then for many of us, including myself, I had a lot of nausea. I didn't have a lot of vomiting, but I had a lot of nausea in the like, especially my last pregnancy in the first several months. And so you don't always have the opportunity to eat all the good food you were planning to eat. So when it comes to what the goals are, I would say on my client's behalf that, yes, the goal is to conceive, but it is to have a healthy child. It is to be a healthy parent.

It is hard to parent even if you are nourished. If you are, like most women, deficient in iron going into pregnancy, studies show as few as 20 % of women go into pregnancy with sufficient iron stores. I mean, it's even harder to parent when you're nutrient deficient at the end of this process and you're low in iron and every other nutrient known to human beings and your thyroid is acting up and whatever. So...

I would go further and say, okay, it's not just about getting pregnant. It's about having a healthy child. And if we have the opportunity to optimize, it's not just going to help the child, it's going to help us as well. So some of the nutrients that are depleted by hormonal contraceptives, it's like the exact ones we need to make healthy babies. It depletes our B vitamins, particularly folate, and B12, and B6 is particularly bad.

It depletes our coenzyme Q10, which anybody who's in the fertility space knows is essential for optimal egg and sperm quality and overall health. And it does this by disrupting nutrient metabolism. When I was talking about the B6 depletion in the fifth vital sign, I gave the analogy of like a hole in a bucket. Because in order to get enough B6, for example,

to offset the deficiency, it's like you had to take 38 times the recommended RDA, right? So it's showing you that it's changing the way you're metabolizing these nutrients. So just by coming off of it, your body would then start metabolizing those things normally. And so maybe like the hole stops, like you stop up the hole in the bucket, but you would still want a period of time of focused nutrition so that you can actually build back.

up those stores and there's other nutrients including zinc and magnesium, selenium, phosphorus, it increases your requirements for vitamin A and vitamin C. Like it's interesting and this is well known and you know even I had an interesting pharmacist on my podcast years ago and like pharmacists are super interesting because like they study all the drug interactions and I mean he wrote a whole book on how

you know, the pill depletes all these nutrients and he's kind of arguing like, why aren't we telling them to take a vitamin or something like we know that this is happening and the vitamin doesn't make everything better either. It just like puts a little like it's like damage control until we get off of it. So so then the recommendation out of that is not only do we want to take the time.

Michelle (32:02)

Right. Yeah.

Right.

Lisa Jack (32:17)

for our menstrual cycles to normalize, right? And our ovaries to just get, and again, it's not to say that you can't get pregnant. Like if your body is ready, then plenty of women come off the pill and get pregnant, but we're saying, let's take it a step further and optimize this. So during that, let's say minimum period of six to 12 months, we are also encouraging you to really focus on incorporating the foods that contain those nutrients that are depleted on the pill, the same ones we need to optimize our chances of conception so that when we're ready to conceive, ideally,

Our bodies are ready, ideally we're able to conceive quicker, more easily, and our pregnancies, the pregnancy outcome, the health of our babies and our own health is better. I mean, why not?

Michelle (33:00)

Totally. And then also the gut health, like the gut microbiome gets impacted, which can impact also how we're absorbing those it's important to also get that back so that you're able to like reabsorb nutrients.

Lisa Jack (33:16)

Yeah, I mean, I think that it's just, this is the information that we need. It's a piece of it. And it's crazy to think that it's just not a standard practice. So I've spoken to so many women who they had it in their mind, you know, I've been on the pill for 10 years and my husband and I are planning to start trying to conceive in the fall, you know? And so she calls her doctor, makes her appointment, takes a shower, gets in her car, drives across town.

to ask this doctor if she should come off the pill, you know, even a few months before. And the doctor says, no, you're good. But I always say like your intuition got you to like get out of bed, like do all this stuff. Like something's up. Listen to it. You know what I mean? It's just we just live in an upside down, ridiculous place where, you know, after we hear this stuff, it feels like common sense. But before, you know, you're questioning yourself. And that's how the medical system is. It's very paternalistic. Not to like.

Michelle (33:56)

Yeah, yep, totally.

Lisa Jack (34:13)

totally rag on it. But we can't always depend on these so -called professionals for all of these answers because at the end of the day, doctors are busy and they don't necessarily have time to read all of this research. So they don't know everything.

Michelle (34:27)

100%. I think that that is the key phrase is nobody knows everything. That's why you need a team. And it's important to ask a lot of people. And also you are part of that team. Your own internal intelligence is a thing. Yes. And you got to listen to your gut. Like your intuition is a real thing. So, um,

Lisa Jack (34:39)

You're the head of the team.

Michelle (34:48)

And I think there have been studies on that too. So yeah, people have like intuitive intuition and they can feel their body from within because if you think about survival, you even look at animals, they'll know what to eat. They just are guided by what is good for their body. That is a real instinct that we have and I think very, very important that you touched upon that. as one of the questions,

Lisa Jack (34:51)

Hahaha!

Michelle (35:16)

about or is it true that we are born with all the eggs we'll ever have?

Lisa Jack (35:21)

Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think it's so interesting because we live in just such an interesting time. So there are these like talks about stem cell research and, you know, people are starting to say like, it's a myth and all this kind of stuff. But when we're looking at natural conception, like birds and the bee stuff, we are for all intents and purposes born with all the eggs that we'll ever have. So it's really interesting numbers. When we're in utero, you know, we have several million eggs in there.

And by the time we're born, we have an estimated number of 500 ,000 to a million eggs, which is wild if you think about it. And to go a step further too, so I mentioned like my, I have three children and so I have a, my youngest is 19 months old as we're recording this and it's a she. So I had a girl after 10 years of being a boy mom, which is fun. But fun fact, you know, when I was pregnant with her, you know, she then had all her eggs in there.

And so theoretically, I was carrying the egg that could turn into a grandchild in the future. So all that fun information, fun facts. And so as we then go through the process of aging, as we go through our reproductive years, and we then at the time of menopause, when we have our last period, they say we have about 1 ,000 eggs left.

So from that perspective then, we can't really control the natural kind of, because there is this natural over time, they call it follicular atresia. They say we ovulate, the research says if you're ovulating normally throughout your reproductive life, you're going to release anywhere from 400 to 500 eggs. So assuming you're not on the pill for 20 years, you're not necessarily releasing all those eggs. During ovulation, that's how much you're releasing, which is interesting.

But it's not to say that you have a million eggs and then you're releasing one at a time. And so it's like going down like that. What happens is every time you go through a menstrual cycle, you have a cohort of follicles that develop and they prepare for ovulation. And then one is chosen to ovulate, but the majority of them, they just, you know, again, they call it follicular atresia. Like the majority of them just kind of like go away.

And interestingly, the question comes like, well, if I'm on the pill and I'm not ovulating, does that mean that I get all these extra eggs? And it's like, have you ever known anyone who was on the pill for 20 years to then go through menopause at 70? No, you haven't. That's not a thing. So even though you're not ovulating, cycle to cycle in the same way, that process of follicular atresia is still taking place. So I think that what's scary about that is that we have this finite number and there's an end date.

Michelle (37:52)

laughs

Lisa Jack (38:10)

Whereas men don't have a firm end date. They do go through aging. So their sperm quality changes over time. Like, listen, they make no mistake. But they still continue to produce sperm all their lives. Whereas we have this end date. So then when we're looking at supporting egg quality, when we're looking at optimizing our chances of fertility, then what we're looking at is to support egg quality. You know, we're looking to understand the different ways that we can test for

are over in reserve and understand those interactions, but we really want to focus on that quality. Because even though there's this cool research that talks about the stem cells, and I don't know if your listeners have heard this, maybe you've heard it, Michelle, but it's like people are talking about this now, like, oh, it's a myth. But that all requires artificial reproductive technology. Like there's no scenario where whatever they're talking about happens naturally. So if we're looking at natural conception, then that's really where our focus has to be, which is on supporting egg.

quality and one fun fact I want to share about egg quality that I think is kind of mind -blowing. Okay, so Michelle, do you remember high school, you know, high, junior high or high school bio class like biology class where they used to tell us about the cells or whatever and like in my textbook they would have a picture of the cell and it had all the like organelles and stuff and there would be like a couple like maybe one or two mitochondria in the picture, right?

Michelle (39:34)

Yes.

Lisa Jack (39:35)

So how many, I don't know if we've had this conversation specifically, so how many mitochondria do you think are in an egg cell?

Michelle (39:43)

I know there are hundreds of thousands.

Lisa Jack (39:45)

Yeah, so when I asked this question to someone who's not heard this before, you know, it's kind of like, I don't know, right? Because in the picture, yeah. Yeah. So you were in the know. But like, when you think about it, so the range of mitochondria in your average cell could be from like a few, a handful to a few hundred, like liver cells, heart cells have a few thousand mitochondria, which is even mind blowing in and of itself. Because like in the picture, in the textbook, there was like one.

Michelle (39:49)

I heard it on your podcast years ago. Yeah.

I know. It's like one lonely mitochondria just floating in the cytoplasm.

Lisa Jack (40:13)

Right? There was not a thousand. You're just like, how does what do you mean there's a thousand? What does the cell look like? Exactly. But in the human egg cell. So the human egg cell is the largest cell of all the cells in the body. It is a cell that is visible to the naked eye. It is the size of a period in a piece on a piece of paper. So you can actually see it with the naked eye. And there are anywhere from 100 ,000 to 600 ,000 mitochondria in one egg cell.

Oh my gosh. And mitochondria are what determine there are energy producers. And then if you think about it logically, it's like, well, yeah, we're building a whole human. So yes, that makes sense. Right. But until you break it down, you don't think about it. So then how do we support egg quality? Well, we do everything we can to support our mitochondrial health. So to really support those mitochondrial cells, we also do what we can do to reduce what they term.

Michelle (40:43)

Yup.

Right?

Lisa Jack (41:07)

oxidative stress, which is damaged to oxygen. So I was thinking the example of like, if you peel a banana and it turns brown, but if you dip the banana in, you know, lemon juice or vitamin C water, then it doesn't turn brown. So it's that those two things are play a big role in supporting mitochondrial and overall egg quality.

Michelle (41:28)

Yes, yeah, 100%. I also talk about plugging the energy leaks in your life because man, even emotions can drain your energy. So they're just like everything, all the aspects, all the things. And I want to talk really quickly because I know we're kind of running out of time about sperm health because we had a really good conversation on the recording that didn't work out. And I want to talk about that, about the parameters of sperm health today.

what they used to be and how they've changed and what we're seeing just overall, like now versus before.

Lisa Jack (42:02)

Yeah, I mean, I always get excited to talk about all of these topics, really, like the egg quality piece is super interesting and then the sperm quality. But particularly with sperm, when it comes to fertility, we're still somehow in this place where we think of fertility as a woman's health issue and we don't really think about the contribution of the male. And so the statistics tell us that 20 to 30 percent of all cases of infertility are solely related to male factor.

and 50 % of the time male factor plays a role. So that means half of the time when you're dealing with a fertility issue, his contribution is playing a role, it's a factor. So the odds are pretty good then that if you're dealing with infertility or struggling to conceive that there's something going on with his sperm. And then there's a few other studies that I found really interesting just collectively where...

when they look at different populations. So if they're doing a study, they might have a group of people who's trying to conceive and some of them conceive within the first six months or the first year and then others conceive within year one or year two. And statistically speaking, if you're taking more than a year or two to conceive, his sperm is not optimal. So on average, when they separate it out,

the sperm quality of the groups of men who are part of that cohort that it took a year or two years to conceive or more, the overall average is a lot lower. Statistically, hello, this is something we should be aware of. Getting back to what you were alluding to, when we look at older studies, the average man in the 40s had a sperm concentration of something like 113 million sperm per milliliter, which sounds like a lot.

The average man today has an average of about 50, 50 million sperm per milliliter. So there's a lot of different studies. It's widely known. It's been talked about quite a bit. It's a topic that comes up every now and then because there is this trend, this downward trend when we look at sperm counts where it's declining and it's declined anywhere up to 70%.

you know, within the last few generations. And it's a concern because what happens in 40 years, like if we continue on this downward spiral, what literally will happen? Because how much further down can we go? Right? So this highlights that it's not just an issue with your partner. It's not just these people. This is an overall trend that's affecting men on a large scale. And arguably, it's affecting us too. We just don't have the ability to test eggs like they do sperm. Like we can't just provide an egg sample.

So it's a little bit more difficult for us to kind of provide that type of information. But arguably there's something going on. And I mean, naturally the question is, well, why is this happening? And I think there's a variety of factors. So I think overall diet quality has declined. There's a huge influx in the consumption of ultra processed foods. So an ultra processed or processed food is something where you look at it and you literally can't even tell what it came from. So if you look at white, that too.

Michelle (45:01)

Mm -hmm.

You can't even pronounce it.

Lisa Jack (45:10)

But if you look at like white sugar or white flour, like you don't know if it came from a beet. You don't know what it came from, right? And then when you take those materials that have already been processed, lots of the nutrients, a huge portion of the nutrients that were in whatever the original food was are lost in that processing. And then you make foods with it. I mean, their solution is to fortify it back with some nutrients. But what you have is a far inferior product that is far less.

nutrient dense. And so that's a part of it. When you're consuming ultra processed foods, you're also often consuming a higher portion of carbohydrates as opposed to getting a good healthy balance of protein and fat. I mean, the 80s and 90s were all about not eating the fat, right? The fat phobia, cholesterol is bad, all the things. And what do you need for optimal fertility? Well, you need sufficient protein as the backbone that we require to make enough hormones. We need sufficient cholesterol specifically.

Michelle (45:56)

All right. Yeah.

Lisa Jack (46:09)

because cholesterol is a precursor for our steroid hormones. And when we consume this off balance, really high carbohydrate diet, we end up with metabolic issues and what's on the rise, right? Obesity, metabolic issues, diabetes. There's all these issues that contribute to poor sperm parameters and poor egg quality, poor fertility and reproductive outcomes. So there's a lot of different factors. And then we did even talk about the toxins, you know, every year thousands and thousands of new chemicals are created.

Michelle (46:09)

Yeah.

Lisa Jack (46:38)

A lot of them are similar in structure to estrogen. And in order for men to make sperm, they need testosterone. So anything that's pouring estrogen into all of their skin and all of the scented things and all the stuff we put on our body and all the chemicals and in the environment, all that stuff, none of that helps the sperm. So there's a lot of different factors we can look at that are contributing. So, I mean, this is a big topic. And one thing I just wanna make sure to mention is that...

The most common thing that I've experienced as a practitioner is that when I'm working with a client who's been trying to conceive or working on the charting and everything, I'm asking, has your partner been tested? And if he has, then it's like, yeah, but he's fine. I always say that. My favorite way, right? He's fine. We were told he was fine. He's good. But no one ever went through his analysis with you. So in the book, we actually put a table in there. We have some drawings of what sperm looks like and all this stuff. We're equipping you with all this information.

because what happens is the guidelines that they use are based off of this 2010 World Health Organization document. And in that document, they're telling you that normal parameters are a sperm concentration of 15 .15 million sperm per milliliter. I just finished telling you that the average amount of the 40s had like 10 times that amount of sperm. And so they're telling you that if his sperm is 15 .15 million,

sperm per milliliter or higher that he's fine. The motility 40%. So motility means the sperm that are moving. So does that mean 60 % aren't moving? And then the morphology being 4 % or higher. So again, morphology means if you look at it, if you think of sperm, it looks like a little circle oval head and tail. So when it doesn't have normal morphology,

Michelle (48:05)

Mm -hmm.

Lisa Jack (48:29)

It means that the head could be squashed. There could be no head. There could be two heads. There could be no tail, like all that kind of stuff. And so they're saying four out of every hundred look like a normal sperm and 96 don't. And you're good to go. So what those what's important to realize about those numbers is that those normal numbers do not represent what would be optimal for conception naturally. Those numbers represent a point that below which.

Michelle (48:44)

Yeah. Yeah.

Lisa Jack (48:57)

there's a problem and we need to look at it. So it's a very different way of looking at it. So what we talk about in the book, there's a different study that looked at, at what point do the numbers start to have a negative impact on fertility to try to define an optimal level. And those research defined optimal as sperm concentration of 48 million sperm per milliliter or higher.

they defined a normal motility of 63 % and a normal morphology of 12%. So that's a lot higher than the World Health Organization. So what I'm saying is for couples who have been struggling to conceive, you know, if your partner hasn't been tested yet, you know, we're saying get them tested as soon as you can. Because even if you want to, if you identify an issue, it takes anywhere from a minimum of three to four months.

Michelle (49:36)

Mm -hmm.

Lisa Jack (49:55)

to start to see an improvement because when your partner ejaculates today, count back three months. So we're recording this in like end of February, so let's say March. So count back three months, February, January, December. So whatever he was doing in December, that determines his printout today. So whatever he does today, we're not gonna see the printout until April, May, June, right? So just to put it out there. And that's only the beginning of it, because it's not like everything's just amazing in three months. Like it can take several months for all of those changes to kick in. So.

Michelle (50:11)

Right.

Lisa Jack (50:25)

You know, what we're talking about then is that there's a range, a sub -fertile range that is not being looked at. Men are just being told that they're either good to go or they're not, and they're not being told that, you know, you might have, you know, beat the WHO criteria, but that doesn't make you optimal, and you still have a whole ways to go. And as long as you're not in that optimal range, it's going to mean, statistically, that it's going to take you longer to conceive.

Michelle (50:55)

Oh my God, it's crazy because this information, especially if you're really actively trying to conceive, you could be wasting a lot of time not really getting the right information. Lisa, as always, you're a wealth of information, super, super smart. I really admire your brain. I'm very excited. Well, it's good to read.

Lisa Jack (51:15)

I read a lot.

Michelle (51:22)

And I'm very excited. I actually haven't seen your book yet. I read the first chapter. I did opt in for that. So I'm very excited because it is so rich with the information. I feel like it's really going to benefit the community in such an empowering way. So I think it's amazing that you guys did this. Really, it's such a contribution. Because a lot of people don't really know all those details. And I know that you really went into deep.

studies and presenting people with information that is not something that they're going to get presented with by mainstream. Let's just say mainstream. I feel mainstream is just not as, you're not going to get the quality from mainstream. You almost have to dig deeper to get the quality of the true real information that's going to help. So I know we're running out of time and I know that you have to go. So I just want to thank you so much for coming on. Before we,

I want you to share with the listeners how they can find the book, how they could find you, work with you, all the stuff.

Lisa Jack (52:29)

Well, thank you again. Thank you so much. This is a great conversation. You had great questions. So the newest book is Real Food for Fertility and it's available on Amazon. It's currently available in our paperback and ebook formats. And Lily and I are planning to record the audiobook later this year. So we're really excited about that. So for all of the podcast listeners, it's like, when's the audiobook coming out? Like soon, soon. We're doing it as soon as we can.

Michelle (52:50)

The audio people.

Lisa Jack (52:53)

Yes, but we wanted to do it ourselves. I always think it's fun when the authors are able to do it themselves. So we're really looking forward to that. You can also go over to realfoodforfertility .com. You mentioned the, you know, you opted in for the first chapter. So for anyone who wants to dive into the first chapter, you can grab that over there and also find more information about Lily and myself.

And you can find me if you like podcasts, if this topic interests you, you can type Fertility Friday into your favorite podcast player and you'll find my podcast. I'm in my 10th year of podcasting. We've released over 500 episodes, which is totally wild. And so lots of lots of fun and info to be had over there. And you can find me on Instagram at Fertility Friday. That's my favorite place on the socials to hang out. And I'll just make one more note for any practitioners who are listening.

You know, this whole topic of charting, we talked about it a little bit, incorporating charting into what you're doing and using it as a vital sign for your clients. I created this resource, How to Interpret Virtually Any Chart Your Client Throws at You, that I made specifically for practitioners, and you can get that over at fertilityfriday .com slash chart.

Michelle (54:01)

Fabulous. Lisa, it's always a pleasure talking to you. I really admire your

thank you so much for coming on today.

Lisa Jack (54:09)

Thank you so much for having me.

EP 277 What is Often Missing on the Fertility Journey?

On today’s episode, I will be discussing some aspects that contribute to vitality and fertility health that are often missed on the fertility journey. Here are some topics that will be covered:

1. Integrating Ancient and Modern Knowledge: How aspects of Taoist philosophies and TCM align with current research and what that can mean for fertility health.

2. The Body’s Wisdom: Learn how the body possesses an inherent intelligence for conception and how aligning with our natural biological rhythms can support the path to reproduction.

3. My Personal Experience: Hear about my own struggles with irregular periods and how this led me to explore a combination of medical perspectives and trust my intuition in making health decisions.

4. Patterns and Cycles: Learn about the importance of recognizing natural patterns and cycles, a concept deeply rooted in Chinese medicine, and how this understanding can impact fertility.

5. Interconnectedness: How TCM perceives a holographic nature of the universe, where everything is connected, reflecting a larger whole and its relevance to our reproductive health.

6. Balance for Fertility: The episode highlights the critical role of balance, represented by the yin and yang, and how maintaining this equilibrium is essential for optimal health and fertility.

[Don’t forget to subscribe to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast for more empowering insights and real-world stories on the fertility journey.]

Be sure to go to this link to find out how to pre-order The Way of Fertility and receive the special gifts mentioned in this episode! https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

For more information about Michelle, visitwww.michelleoravitz.com

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook:https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

 Transcript:

Way of fertility episode

[00:00:00] Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. So if you're new to this

podcast, my name is Michelle Oravitz and I'm an acupuncturist specializing in fertility health. And for people who know me have been listening to this for a while, you may have heard a couple of different announcements here and there that I am super excited. Because my new book is coming out, The Way of Fertility.

And a lot of you guys might be thinking, What in the world is this book about? Is it about Chinese medicine? Is it about acupuncture points? Is it about food? Is it about supplements? What is it about? 

So of course I can try to explain in the best way I can but it's almost like trying to tell a friend about another friend that you met that you really connected with and trying to put that into words and To describe the person and [00:01:00] of course, there are so many different aspects to it and it's an experience So, you'll have to read it to get that full immersion However, it really is based on ancient Wisdom so a lot of what I share is not only about ancient wisdom, 

 But it's also about some modern research that has been done that has shown and proven some of these things that Chinese medicine has spoken about and the energetics that basically are super important for fertility health, like the heart uterus connection.

And ultimately, this book is for the person that has tried everything to conceive and is not sure what in the world is getting in the way. So they're eating the right foods. They're doing the right things. They're having sex at the right time. They're going to the doctor. They're figuring out all the different options that they can do.

They're cutting out any toxins in [00:02:00] their life, trying everything almost to the point of being stressed by all of the checklist, but yet not having any success. And so in the book I wanted to speak about

a very important aspect of our being that rarely gets attention. And it's not just the mind. I know I talk a lot about the mind, but it's more than that. And And it really comes down to this and really the statement. So unless you have some very unusual reason that's very rare, like blocked tubes or some people are born without a uterus or a genetic component that is not allowing you to conceive, then you are hardwired to conceive.

You were designed to reproduce as a human. Majority of people are designed to reproduce and the majority of cases of fertility challenges is. are not true infertility, meaning it's not [00:03:00] like impossible for them to conceive. And this is why people are listening to podcasts like mine because they know and believe that there must be something that they can do in order to improve their ability to conceive.

So in the book, I look into this thing, this intelligence that has been spoken about throughout history. It's been referred to the Tao, you know, the Tao, the way. So Taoism, if you haven't listened to some of my earlier episodes, Taoism is really the, religion, or it could be considered a way of life.

That is what. Chinese medicine is based on, and a lot of these ancient medicines have a wisdom. So even Ayurveda, it really comes down to uniting and connecting with our nature. And when we are [00:04:00]expressing our nature the way it was intended to be expressed. And when we are connected with our external nature, which is the nature that is also being guided by that same intelligence that we are,

then that is really living in accordance to the Tao, accordance to the way. So the Tao translates as the way this is why I was inspired to call it the way of fertility because ultimately when our bodies are fully aligned 

In their expression, then that is when our bodies will want to reproduce because it's kind of like a reminder. I think we forget often because we see it as such a challenge, but reproduction is what your body. It's programmed to do because that is ultimately what will continue life here on earth and you'll see it.

You'll see it everywhere. I mean, sprouts are everywhere in nature because nature [00:05:00] constantly wants to keep thriving and it will adapt to that. As well. So if you'll see a tree or even cement and through the cracks, you'll see lots of weeds. I mean, nature just constantly wants to keep on thriving and that's what it is gravitating towards.

So I speak about what gets in the way of that, because there must be something that's getting in the way of that. If the body is not expressing itself fully, and this is a very personal story for me as well. You may have heard me talk about this a lot in my own. You know, my own journey is that I had 12 years of irregular periods and irregular meaning like two months, three months, just not getting my period on time at all.

And

 Only given the birth control pill as an answer and getting really frustrated and realizing that while. All types of medicines have their [00:06:00] gifts, not all of them know everything. So there's a time to rely on different types of medications and different types of technologies and different types of medical philosophy.

But it's important to know that not everybody knows everything so that when somebody tells us there is no answer, it's important for us if we feel that intelligence speaking to us in our heart to continue getting second opinions or talking to other people and not finishing with just one and taking no for an answer, like right off the bat. And for me, I actually had to go to many different people. Before I got the answer and I had to go to a different modality in order to get the answer.

So the modality that I kept going to was just not a great answer. modality for menstrual cycle health. And I've learned that is that every type of practitioner will provide tools and some of them are more fitting. So for example, if somebody[00:07:00] does have block tubes, 

they would benefit from IVF and the technology. And it's incredible. So. I want to state that all of them are good. There's many, many different options here, but it's important to figure out what option is best for you. And ultimately I speak very strongly about this is that your intuition is this same intelligence.

that basically tells your cells what to do. It's based on the same intelligence that tells an animal something's not right, or you should eat this or don't eat for a day and fast. This is an intelligence that guides us towards vitality. So when we're starting to be in a state of listening, we will ultimately be guided.

So we can analyze tons of information out there and really go through that rabbit hole of Google when it comes to fertility health and just getting like being information dense and that information oftentimes is can be good, but it can [00:08:00]also take us down this path where it's confusing to us. So while it's important to have information, it's also important to tune in to your own intelligence.

And I call the difference between that is vertical knowledge versus horizontal knowledge. So horizontal knowledge is just like what it seems like. It's basically information that you get from person to person. You're getting it from this material world that you're living in. You go to school, you learn. information. You're basically getting information, but you're also getting energy.

I think one of the ways that we learn is invisible. It's not something that we measure, but we must be picking up also on other types of information that we were not realizing. So it's not just even language. It could be body language. It could be energetic.

And then vertical knowledge is something that we can get from downloads. So if you have [00:09:00]meditated in the past, you will know what I'm talking about, because if you meditate long enough, you will start to get. This guidance that you can't quite put your finger on, but you know, it's there and you know, it's real.

And those are the signs that you get. Those are the hunches. Those are the guidance. Like something will tell you, Hey, you know, I should call this friend. And then little, Did you know that this friend actually happens to know a great IVF clinic and finds you the best and most aligned doctor that you were looking for.

So this is just one example, but that's that intuition, that feeling, that gut. And a lot of us have felt that. And a lot of times it saved us in situations that could have been dangerous. And also something that I, I know I've had, and I've heard a lot of people tell me is that when they don't listen to it, they actually remember afterwards, like, Hey, I knew that something was telling me something like something was telling me not to do something.

And I did it anyway. And I realized [00:10:00] why I felt that feeling. So next time I'm really going to listen. So that is basically your intuition guiding you. And that intuition is not as abstract as it seems. 

It's actually real. It's just invisible. It's not something that we can measure, really measure. And although there were some studies that were done on intuition, also premonitions, people would have a certain type of their brain active before they saw a picture that was related to that type of activity.

So that has been actually measured and seen in people. And luckily, you know, we're in a place where We are studying a lot of things that show that our minds are very powerful,

but this divine intelligence, as I like to call it, I like to call it divine intelligence because it's really something that is greater than anything that we can perceive in our material world is really what the material [00:11:00] world emerges from. And what happens is we often respond or react to what. has already come from that.

It's sort of like the tail end, rather than going within to that root. So it's almost like we talk about root cause medicine and root cause medicine is all about going to that initial place where the something emerged and manifested in the body rather than going to the manifestation, just putting a bandaid or cutting it out.

We want to know where is it coming from in the first place? Where is this pattern coming from? So we have our own patterns and our life is also a pattern. So just like it manifests in the body, it can manifest in a life and it can go out to infinity. And Chinese medicine always talks about the map. The macro and the micro so that everything is a hologram and what that means is that

The part reflects the whole, and the whole could be found in the part. So, [00:12:00] our bodies have their own ecosystem, and nature has its own ecosystem, and just like we have cycles, nature has cycles, and it can go on and on and on into the universe, and you'll see cycles everywhere.

And so basically what these medicines and this ancient wisdom is based on is this wisdom of understanding and this insight of really looking and observing nature. And it really comes down to a very elementary thing. It's not complicated as we make it to be. We actually innately understand this. because we are made of it.

So we know this in ourselves. So it really comes down to, and I speak about this also in the book is the yin and the yang, this homeostasis, this balance that the body always wants to go to. And that is what makes nature thrive. And so when we get out of balance, by overriding this intelligence.

Then that is when we start to [00:13:00] veer out of alignment. But the body's incredibly intelligent because it will let you know when you're out of alignment. It will give you symptoms, it'll give you emotions, it'll give you a feeling of discomfort. It's speaking to you all the time.

The problem is that we're not really aware. And the reason we're not aware is because we're distracted by so much of the noise outside of us. And so if you look at a lot of ancient teachings, even though you can consider them horizontal knowledge,

a lot of them will point you inwards so that you can connect to that. Vertical knowledge, and that vertical knowledge is where you go within yourself and you download the information from the source of your own intelligence and the intelligence that made you.

I'll be honest, I've known this for a long time but this knowing that I had and that I've had for a long time, didn't initially come from research. It [00:14:00] didn't initially come from the outside. It might've been inspired by some books, but ultimately a lot of it came from my own connection to that source, that source intelligence. And when I got connected to that source intelligence, it.

It guided me in my life.

So oftentimes fertility health is looked at as the manifestation so the manifestation of the body and how it is translating from the imbalance people are trying to fix 

and ultimately, unless you resolve the foundation from where things emerge, then they're going to continue to emerge over and over again.

And part of that is also staying in this identification, because once we identify our minds, identify, we create a mental home.

And that too can get in the way of fertility health or really any health. And ultimately people think of it as just [00:15:00]fertility health, but fertility health is an emergence and a by product of overall health.

So I'll go back to my architecture days. before you build anything, first of all, you go to the blueprint, which is the intelligence, the guidance, and then you go to the foundation and that foundation has to hold the rest of the house. So imagine the foundation as you, as your health and your overall health that relies on so many different things and not just the physical, but also the energetics of your body and the mind and how you feel your spirit.

 And so, so many people have come to me and said, I'm doing everything. I'm doing everything right. I'm doing everything and nothing's happening. And as they're telling me, I can feel, I can sense the stress. and the pressure that they feel to try to get all of the checks off the list.

So it comes down to diet and also [00:16:00] feeling really stressed out about diet and upset if they ate something bad and detoxing their whole life. And while I'm very big on Those things. And I do talk about them a lot and I have guests that come on and talk about them. Of course they're important,

but nothing is so important that it takes out your peace of mind. So if it means you're not doing it perfectly, then don't do it perfectly. allow yourself to feel ease. And then ultimately, I do want to mention that if you are connected to that divine intelligence within you, that divine intelligence will actually guide you towards intuitive eating.

It's going to guide you towards what is good for you in your life. And so the more you come from a place of being centered, so this is again from the inside out, not the outside in, when you're coming from within and balancing that internal energy and connecting yourself to that intelligence that knows your highest and [00:17:00] best good, it will guide you towards the right people, the right things, the right information, the right food.

So ultimately this book is inspired by that, by how to get back to yourself in order to live not only a fertile life, but your best life. 

And so yes, this is definitely a fertility book, but it's a life book too.

So instead of focusing on all of the details, which can literally make us crazy we focus on what it means to come back home and come back home to ourselves and come from a place where we are whole and really wholeness is what healing is. So healing is wholeness. It's coming from a place where we become more consolidated so that our body. aligns to this vitality effortlessly. And part of this is living in flow and having this effortless effort that you will see [00:18:00] oftentimes in nature.

Nature doesn't hold on, it moves on. It moves and flows however it needs to go. It's not stagnated. It knows how to overcome challenges. 

Even after really difficult challenges like hurricanes, tornadoes, fires, nature will always rebound and that really comes down to this intelligence within it. When we veer away from that nature, we will start to stagnate. And our emotions start to stagnate if they don't move through the way they're supposed to.

So I talk about how it is important to validate your feelings, not negate them, validate them. The more we embrace them, the easier it is for them to move.

And the importance of honoring ourselves at every moment and the importance of presence. And I share in my book, golden nuggets that I have collected throughout the years and just with my own [00:19:00]studies and learning through doing this kind of work, the powerful medicine that is love and how love can impact your heart and how even modern research is supporting that really proving that the heart does in fact, house the mind.

So I take you through a journey inward to understand your own inner terrain and to empower yourself so that you can move on through this journey with a sense of empowerment and also as a cherry on top improved fertility health.

I share some of my. My most favorite stories of clients and patients, stories that defy the predictions that lots of these women were given. I share exercises that are simple and easy to do. I share tricks that you can use to really impact the mind almost instantaneously.

I feel like this work was definitely a work of the [00:20:00] heart and I feel like not only was there research in it and information that I learned, but a lot of it was divinely guided to the point where something would emerge in my mind. I was like, I need to put this in a chapter. I knew that.

The book was not complete until I felt like, okay, I got it all out. And I would literally have these thoughts and something moving me like a little piece of the puzzle that needed to fit in to certain areas of the book. So I do believe that it was divinely guided as a message for the readers.

And even though I give lots of tips on what to do, I also discuss the importance of doing less.

I feel like this book was a sacred creation that I got to be part of, and I am so blessed to have had this experience of writing it. And I'm so excited for it to reach you.

And so I wanted to share. a couple of really cool things. At the moment that I'm recording this right now, [00:21:00] and hopefully it's not too late. If it is too late, that's not a problem. You can eventually go ahead and find it anyway. It's out. But if you're listening to this close to when I am releasing this episode,

Then you are in the window of pre order. So right now, as I'm releasing this episode, the book, the way of fertility is available for pre order. You will be able to get all of this information in the episode notes. So basically what I'm saying is that if anybody goes and pre orders the book and sends me A submission, and you'll see the form, where you prove that you pre ordered the book, and the submission will include your email.

You will receive lifetime access to the 2022 and 2023 empower your fertility summits, which has lots of amazing fertility[00:22:00] experts, as well as fertility bonuses. So that's incredible because each one is 97 and you're going to receive two just for pre ordering the book. And by the way, if you pre order the book, you're also getting money off.

It's on a discounted price, so you're not only getting a discounted price, but you're also getting lifetime access for two Empower Your Fertility Summits. But that's not all. The first 50 people who submit proof We'll be able to join a live, The Way of Fertility workshop where you will get to ask me questions and we're going to talk about the book and anything that comes to your mind, you will be able to ask me.

And of course you're thinking, okay, well, if I pre order, I'm not going to have the book. I'm not going to have the book. I'm not going to have questions. We're not going to do this workshop right away. I will wait a month after, and I will take the first 50 [00:23:00] people, send them an email, and explain exactly when this workshop will take place.

So no need to worry about that. But that's not all. I'm also going to enter. Everyone, not just the first 50, every single person is going to be entered into a draw. So whoever submits proof of their pre order in the form that I'm going to be sharing is going to be entered into a draw and the first prize Which is freaking fabulous, not just fabulous, but incredibly generous, and I've been told you're nuts, nuts for doing this, but I'm doing it anyway. So, the first prize will be getting immediate access to my signature fertility program, the Wholesome Fertility Method, of almost 1, [00:24:00] 000. Okay. And then prize number two, two of the winners that are going to be taken from the draw will get immediate access to the Wholesome Moon. So it's my cycle hacking program, which is veered towards optimizing your menstrual cycle. To help with fertility with fertility in mind. So two winners get that, and that's a value of almost 400.

So either way you win, because you will get freebies and freebies that costs. Lots of money. So

this is a no brainer like literally don't even think about it because it's like you're literally You're already gaining Tons of money right off the bat and you're basically gaining to empower of your fertility summits but you're not for just the amount of money that it costs for the pre order, which is already a discounted price on simply a book.

[00:25:00] So here's something that you might want to think about if you have family members that really want you to win and they decide to buy an ebook for you to submit their names and then they get it. So you could do that as well. So this is something that If you feel like somebody's like, okay, I really want you to get this.

And I'm going to order a book. So the books are discounted. So, you know, this is just an option,

but I know that as much as you are getting value just from submitting proof that you pre ordered the book, you are going to get immense value from the book. Itself.

And I'm going to suggest that you look into this. today because if you don't, it's, you're going to forget about it. Cause that's just the way of the world. You're going to get distracted and you're going to forget about it. So if I were you and if you're on the fertility journey and this is like a win win, I mean, really like a huge win for you, you [00:26:00] might as well just look at it today.

Click on the link. It's going to have all the details and don't wait because if you are within the window of pre order, which is the rest of March 2024, and half of April 2024, then you're going to get insane value. However, if you did miss it, you're still going to get insane value from the book itself. So thank you for taking the time and listening to this episode because I'm just so excited for this book to reach the masses because it felt divinely inspired.

It was something that I really felt called to, to the point where I feel a sense of relief now that it's out. It felt like something I needed to create.

I wanted to inspire hope. I wanted to also reawaken a belief in your own body and I also wanted it to reawaken empowerment. because I feel like we [00:27:00] are just so much more powerful than we've ever imagined. So I share so many reasons on how powerful we are that is supported by some research. And if you do happen to read it, and find something in it inspiring. You can always reach out to me. I love getting DMs on Instagram and I do my best to respond to every one of them. You can always find me on my handle at the wholesome Lotus fertility.

So thank you for spending this time with me. And I hope you have a beautiful day.