EP 393 The Iron Myth: What Every Woman Trying to Conceive Needs to Know with Samantha Chandler

In this episode, Michelle sits down with Women’s Wellness Coach Samantha Chandler for a conversation that may completely shift the way you think about iron, blood loss, and your body’s wisdom. If you’ve been told you have low iron or low ferritin, especially while trying to conceive or during pregnancy, this episode offers a perspective that is rarely shared in mainstream care.

Samantha walks us through how iron actually moves in the body, why bloodwork can be misleading, and why so many women are taking iron supplements without truly absorbing them. She explains the role of copper, vitamin A in the form of retinol, and ceruloplasmin in regulating iron, and why the body recycles iron rather than needing more of it from supplements. We also explore how heavy periods, postpartum hemorrhage, fatigue, hair loss, and even thyroid issues can all be connected to iron not moving properly through the system.

This conversation is a beautiful reminder that the body is intelligent, that symptoms are messages, and that real healing often comes from supporting the body’s natural rhythms rather than overriding them.

Key Takeaways:

• Why low iron on bloodwork does not always mean the body is actually low in iron
• How copper, ceruloplasmin, and vitamin A in the form of retinol work together to move iron through the body
• Why iron-fortified foods and iron supplements can interfere with the body’s natural ability to recycle iron
• The role of blood loss as one of the body’s primary ways of regulating iron
• How heavy periods, hair changes, fatigue, anxiety, and skin issues can all point back to iron dysregulation
• Why whole food sources like beef liver, cod liver oil, and adrenal cocktails support the body better than synthetic supplements
• A grounding reminder that the body is always communicating, and symptoms are messengers, not malfunctions

Guest Bio:

Samantha Chandler, also known as Wellness & Womb, is a Women’s Wellness Coach who focuses on iron’s movement in the body. Many women are told they are low in iron, but as Samantha teaches, low iron in the blood does not mean iron is low in the body. She coaches clients, health providers, and doctors on how iron actually moves so they can get to the root of the issues women are experiencing in their health. Samantha has worked with over one hundred women and consistently sees transformative results, all without iron supplements or iron infusions.

Connect with Samantha:

Website: wellnessandwomb.com
Instagram: @wellnesswomb_
TikTok: @wellnessandwomb
YouTube: @wellnesswomb_

Disclaimer: The information shared on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider before making any changes to your health or fertility care.

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• Transcript

  Speaker: [00:00:00] Episode number 393 of the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. Welcome back to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. I'm your host, Michelle Orbits, and today's conversation is one I think every woman needs to hear, especially if you've been told you're low in iron or anemic. My guest today is Samantha Chandler, also known as Wellness and Womb.

  She's a woman's wellness coach who specializes in iron movement in the body, and what she shares in this episode may completely shift the way you think about your blood work, your cycles, and your body's intelligence. Samantha walks us through how iron actually moves in the body, why so many women are taking iron supplements without truly absorbing them, and the surprising role that copper, vitamin A, and whole foods play in keeping iron flowing properly.

  We talk about heavy periods, fatigue, hair loss, thyroid concerns, and how all of [00:01:00] these connect back to iron not moving the way it's meant to. What I love most about this conversation is that it returns us to a much needed truth. Your body isn't broken. It's communicating. And once we really understand the language it's speaking and its symptoms, real healing becomes possible.

  Before we begin, a quick note. This episode is for educational and informational purposes only. It's not intended as medical advice. Please always consult with your doctor or qualified healthcare provider before making any changes to your health, supplements, or fertility care. So let's dive in

  Michelle: [00:02:00] Welcome to the podcast, Samantha.

  Samantha: Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to get to chat with you.

  Michelle: Yeah, me too. So this is your first time, and I always ask an origin story on how you got into the work that you're doing.

  Samantha: Yeah, absolutely. So I was pregnant. I was told that I was anemic. I took iron supplements in the last trimester or the last month of the pregnancy, sorry. And I think, like many women are led to believe that we do this to help prevent a hemorrhage. And there was so much blood that I had lost in the birthing pool that I couldn't actually see the bottom.

  It was just pitch black. And I was really curious after that because I thought, well, if I was taking iron supplements, then isn't that meant to prevent that from happening? Like, why is, why is this the case? And my sister had heard Morley Robbins on a podcast, and she's like: "You have got to [00:03:00] listen to him.

  It's gonna answer all of your iron questions." Because that was something I was really confused about was why are so many women low in iron when they're pregnant? Is it something that we're measuring wrong? Is it something that in the foods that we're eating? I was really confused around that. And so, after hearing him speak, that really sparked my interest in the whole topic.

  Michelle: So interesting, and it actually is such a good question because I think that what I've noticed when I was looking into you is that you talk about how people actually have a lot of iron circulating in their system, and we're taking so much iron trying to avoid iron deficiency. And I think it's a real mystery, like even doctors don't really realize, like, how it doesn't necessarily get absorbed with the ones that we're taking.

  So I wanna break that down, 'cause I think that people listening to this are like, "Okay, well, how does it work and what's going on?" And so, if we can actually just break down the whole [00:04:00] myth the myth around it and really how it actually gets absorbed in the body.

  Samantha: Sure, yeah. So this narrative that we just need to consume more and open our mouths and gobble down as much iron as possible is very confusing to me because iron is a heavy metal. So just like we wouldn't go and start taking, say, aluminum or mer-mercury as a supplement, I find it very confusing as to why we're being pushed to consume iron.

  We need 25 milligrams of iron a day, and we Actually only need 1% or one milligram from foods. So our body recycles iron. So this, the narrative around making sure that we're consuming more, that we're focusing on its absorption isn't telling us the whole story because our bodies are designed to recycle it.

  Part of the issue is that our food systems have become fortified with iron, and they've been that way since 1941, and that interrupts how our body [00:05:00] recycles iron in the body. So when we think of how iron moves is first of all, our blood work is not always completely accurate, so it can be In the tissues, and that's part of the issue is that the narrative around ferritin too is pretty confusing because it wasn't until, I believe, 1972, that this focus on ferritin. being the storage of iron is this big push.

  You know, if your ferritin's below 30, then you're deficient in iron, and that's just simply not the case because there's another vehicle essentially that iron will go into called hemosiderin, and it's not all stored in iron. So in order to move iron, so I like to talk about... Pardon?

  Michelle: In ferritin you meant it's not all stored in...

  Samantha: that's right.

  That's right. Yeah, So it'll go to hemosiderin. So when we're thinking of how iron moves, I like to think of a bus, and there is this baby blue bus. The color is very, very important, and a lot of the time we don't think of the significance of color. But [00:06:00] if we were to look at a package of cigarettes, how is it that that warning label resonates with us that we shouldn't smoke?

  Because we can't touch it, we can't taste it, we can't smell it, but we're looking at two sets of lungs, one that lacks color and is typically dark, and then one that's a normal set of lungs. We know that our organs need color in order for them to function properly. We just don't think about it that way.

  And so color is very important. Iron is what rusts, and that's part of the issue. So we think of this baby blue bus. It's called ceruloplasmin, and it is a master antioxidant in the body. This is what copper needs to be bound to in order to function properly. So we have a bus, we have copper. Copper is like the doorman.

  He's gonna let iron on and off. And then we also have the master of keys, which is vitamin A in the form of retinol, and he's gonna make sure that copper gets locked to that bus in order to function optimally. When we're thinking of how iron moves, this isn't the bus that [00:07:00] iron then gets onto and then moves iron through the body.

  I don't know if you've seen Zootopia, but there's a scene at the beginning of it where the subway train pulls up, and then there's all these different sized animals that get off, and that's essentially what we're talking about, where once this series of events can happen, then there's all of these different doors that open in the body for iron to move and be regulated effectively.

  So- That is we don't need to be forcing more iron to be absorbed. We only need a small amount. The issue really comes down to regulating iron so that it can move effectively and get into the blood where we want it to be.

  Michelle: So it sounds like there are, it's, it needs to be a formula or a symphony of different types of elements and minerals and other metals like copper, in order for the body to absorb it correctly.

  Samantha: That's right. That's right, 'cause our big issue now is that a lot of us have iron in us, we just don't think of it that way. One of my clients, [00:08:00] she was borderline anemic, took iron supplements on and off for years and years, and she started donating blood. And when she started donating blood, she went with a hemoglobin of 125 or 12.5, depending on what unit everybody uses.

  And as she's consistently donated over the last year, her hemoglobin is now at 156 or 15.6. And it's that when we start to lose blood, that's part of why a lot of women will have heavy periods, is because the body's trying to pull out the ex- excess iron produce a hormone that tells your body to release more iron from the tissues.

  And as we continue to do that, then that hormone gets produced. We start pulling out more of that excess iron. Some of that copper can free up. A lot of the stress really, it comes out of the body, and it's really helpful. So it is a, a process that needs to happen. And part of the issue is, is we're being told to avoid vitamin A when we're pregnant.

  We're not-- We don't have access to copper like we used to [00:09:00] anymore. There was a study that was done, and they looked at the amount of nutrients that have been depleted in the soil in North America, and it's at 85%, which is the most in the world. That's just mind-boggling to me that we have 15% of the minerals in our soil left.

  So there's a, a whole bunch of different things that we're coming up against that can interfere with this process without us really realizing it.

  Michelle: That's so interesting. I think about, you know, I was in India and we used to I remember I, I did a Panchakarma and the doctor there had a container that was copper, and they would leave, I think it was even by our beds, they would leave us water overnight sitting in that copper container, and then in the morning they would have us drink it.

  So it was the first thing that we would drink really to get into our body, but to have that copper, and it was incredibly important. They put a lot of emphasis on it. But then if you think about how beef liver we [00:10:00] often suggest has natural vitamin A, it has kind of like the natural formula for the, the iron to be absorbed correctly.

  Samantha: That's right. It does. It, it cured anemia in 1934. So It's got all of these different nutrients. It's much smarter than I am. I don't, I don't understand it at its complexity, but I know that it's

  Michelle: of nature.

  Samantha: Yeah.

  exactly. You know, when we go with things that are naturally occurring, we're really not going to go wrong because that's where a huge part of these issues come in, when we think that we can just cherry-pick these different nutrients and add them together and that we're gonna come up with this formula that the body needs, when really our body already knows what it needs, and it's gonna come from natural sources.

  Michelle: So fascinating. And so, somebody comes in and says, "I have very low ferritin." You're saying that it, it's not necessarily stored in ferritin, it's stored in something else you had mentioned

  Samantha: That's right, [00:11:00] hemosiderin.

  Michelle: with. Hemosiderin, and that's another aspect of the blood?

  Samantha: That's ri- that's right. So, if we're not gonna have it tested on a blood marker, it requires a needle biopsy or expensive testing to tell where it is. But I like to think of it like a water fountain. So if you think of how iron is being stored, it's this water fountain that we don't want turned on. So at the first, you know, coming out of the spout, we're gonna have hemoglobin right at the very top.

  And when our hemoglobin deviates from 13 or 130 and then it starts to go to ferritin, we might have an overflow coming out of ferritin. So, you know, people whose ferritin is above 50, a lot of the time we're told that, you know, you have to have a ferritin above 50 in order to have hair growth. I was actually going to do a topic on it today, but then I was like, "I need to do my hair before I open that can of worms on social media and then in-invite that kind of target on my back."

  But it can go into ferritin and spill out of ferritin, [00:12:00] or it can end up where we have low ferritin and it's kind of like these little holes that are in that base, and then it spills into hemosiderin 'cause hemosiderin can hold way more iron than the, the other ones. And so if we think of it like that, then it's kind of like a VHS tape and rewind that we wanna come out.

  We wanna pull it out of hemosiderin, we want it to go back into ferritin, and then we want it to get into hemoglobin so that way we can lose blood and have it come out of the body. That's ideally the long-term goal.

  Michelle: And so, how does that happen? By having other minerals that you were saying in order to like, it was... Or even taking beef liver so that you're able to really process it correctly? And so what ultimately is a correct process? What does that look like? I know you had mentioned it before, but just to kind of like, 'cause it's probably the first time people are hearing it.

  Samantha: Yes. So I would say it's gonna depend for everybody. One of the first places I like to start is with an adrenal cocktail. So, looking at [00:13:00] sodium, potassium, and whole food vitamin C. Canada, it's really hard to get your hands on a good quality adrenal cocktail, so I have formulated one, but they're labeled as electrolytes just because of the regulations in Canada.

  So, that's gonna help support the adrenal glands. That's gonna help support some of the stress that our body's been under. We want-- I mean, we're mainly made up of fluid, so we want that. Our-- We need sodium, we need potassium. We wanna get that moving in the body, and it's really, really important. And the whole food vitamin C helps support the adrenal glands because that's What they run on.

  So things like that can be really beneficial. Looking at magnesium, the type? of magnesium is really important, too. Starting off with just, like... So we want a sodi- or not sodium. I still have the adrenal cocktail on my mind. We want magnesium bisglycinate. If we're taking magnesium citrate as a way, that's just irritating the gut lining, so we don't wanna do that.

  But we can use our skin as a way to help us absorb things, so we don't have to just rely on supplements. We can take Epsom salt [00:14:00] baths. We can apply magnesium topically on the feet to help promote sleep at night, different things like that and alleviate some of the pressure off of the digestive tract.

  Looking at cod liver oil. Cod liver oil is so important, but the one that we're looking at matters. So I have a lot of clients who will message me and say, "You know, I've changed my mind. I wanna try this brand." And that's okay, but I won't stand behind those other ones because I look into how they're manufactured.

  I look into whether or not they're adding the ingredients back in synthetically, whether or not they've processed them at a high temperature. There's a whole bunch of things I think that are important concerns with cod liver oil.

  Michelle: What which ones do you recommend, if you don't mind me asking?

  Samantha: no, not at all. So Rosita is like the Cadillac. That one is one of my favorites.

  I really like Jigsaw. Jigsaw is easy to get through iHerb, so if anybody is outside of the United States, you can still get it. And it's a little bit more affordable than Rosita. That's the one. that I use personally, and I give it to all my kids. So my [00:15:00] youngest is nine months old, and she gets cod liver oil.

  My oldest is six years old, and he gets cod liver oil. And then another one be- would be Formula IQ. So they have little capsules, but that one would be an option for anybody who's in the United States 'cause it can be hard to source outside of there.

  Michelle: And would you say that's, that would be better or a better option than just omega-3s, like a fish oil?

  Samantha: Yeah. Yeah, that's what I would go with because when we're looking at like omega-3s, where is that coming from? A lot of the time it can just be kind of a mixture of different ingredients that are remnants from the fish. But when we're looking at cod liver oil, we're taking that really nutrient-dense part and, you know, when you...

  I- it made me happy because I was telling my in-laws, I was like, "You guys need to start taking some cod liver oil. Get rid of the vitamin D supplement and take cod liver oil instead." And they were like, "Oh, we used to take that as a kid." I'm like, "Then that means we need to bring it back because there's some wisdom in that, where if it's something that we used to do, then that's probably a good [00:16:00] path to be on, that that's something that we should really be considering."

  Michelle: Awesome. Yeah, that's so true. anything else that you would suggest?

  Samantha: I would say those are like my five, my four or five places to start. Those are kinda like the, the basis of where we get the ball rolling from, and then slowly change things up depending on, you know, the client or what they're looking for kinds of things. I really think B vitamins are really important.

  Oh, yeah, Beef liver Yeah. Yeah,

  I really like beef spleen as well. So depending on the client, I'll look at beef spleen because I think a lot of our spleens are really deficient. So, having beef liver and beef spleen I think is really beneficial. But B vitamins are I would say a, a hot topic because a lot of people think that they have MTHFR, and then therefore that means that they need some kind of synthetic vitamin, and that's just simply not the case.

  I, I find it really confusing when, when we start talking about B vitamins and people think, "Well, I have this you know, I have [00:17:00] an MTHFR, so then that means I need a methylated B vitamin." We're just swapping one synthetic B vitamin for another synthetic B vitamin. Whereas if we get a whole food B vitamin and help the body reduce some of that stress, then, you know, it's again, it's made up in a way that's much smarter than all of us.

  So I, I think that that's a really important starting point as well.

  Michelle: definitely. And then there are actually some good prenatals that are based off of whole foods. Is that typically what you'll suggest just in general, like, multivitamins that are whole food-based?

  Samantha: So I would say the only prenatal that I've seen that would pass my test would be, I'm trying to think of what the name

  Michelle: New Chapter I know does that, and I, I believe Best Nest,

  Samantha: I don't, think I'm on board with those ones. But there's one that has like oyster powder, there's one that has beef liver, there's ones that have those that have, like, a different blend. I can't think of the one right now that does it. But if we get the whole food nutrients, then, you know, it's not [00:18:00] necessarily going to be just a, a prenatal supplement.

  Michelle: you saying to get it from whole foods or like actually from eating or therapeutically through supplements that are based on whole foods?

  Samantha: Yeah, you can get it through supplements that are based in whole foods, but, I mean, every supplement that I've looked up for the other ones that you suggested, I don't think that I've seen them where they're actually whole food based. There's some synthetic form that they're adding into it. But I, I'm trying to think of the one...

  I know they have beef liver, oyster powder. It's like a purpl- Birthright? Birthright is a prenatal.

  Michelle: Okay. I'll take it... I'll, I'll check it out. I have not seen it, but I learned... This is why I love having this podcast 'cause I'm always learning new things.

  Samantha: Yeah.

  Michelle: really fascinating. And what about copper? Where, where do people get that? 'Cause oftentimes you won't see that, which surprises me 'cause, like, I know in s- I, I feel like it should be in every zinc [00:19:00] supplement.

  They should have a little copper just to organize it i-in a way or, or have that ratio because too much zinc can deplete copper. So at least, at the very least, have it balanced.

  Samantha: yeah, it can. So if I'm looking at a copper supplement, typically I'll start off with, like, an alfalfa especially if somebody's pregnant, alfalfa can be a really good first step. And then looking at Formula IQ has one called Recuperate. So it has some spirulina in it, has some turmeric to help chelate the additional iron, has a little bit of beef liver to help make it bioavailable.

  So I'd say that's like the Cadillac option of a copper supplement, and that would be the route to go for that one.

  Michelle: Awesome. And so typically you'll do supplements or you'll also do like a, a diet that you like just suggestions for people to eat?

  Samantha: Yeah.

  that's right. So it can be a blend of both. I would say a lot of the time, most of my clients are concerned about supplements, but if they are, you know, maybe there's different [00:20:00] concerns that they have about their nutrition, then we'll, we'll dive into that for sure. I have, Like, we'll focus on different foods.

  A big thing that we focus on is not consuming iron-fortified foods. It's a big one 'cause it doesn't work. So I would say that's kind of consistent across the board. But each client's unique for kind of What they're looking for. So a lot of the time I would say it's mainly supplements, but if anybody has questions around Nutrition and diet, then we absolutely start going into that because as long as we're getting whole foods, then it doesn't have to be difficult.

  I would say like a lot of the questions too will come around, well, beef liver is high in iron, so does that mean that we should avoid it? But anything that's high in iron that's naturally occurring is going to be rich in copper. So if we're having whole foods, then the body knows what to do with it.

  We don't have to cherry-pick, you know, kind of what we're throwing in. It's gonna take what it needs, and it knows what to do.

  Michelle: What would you say for vegans?[00:21:00]

  Samantha: I would say vitamin A in the form of retinol is not it's not all converted equally in the body. So vegans?

  are typically not attracted to the way that I approach things because I don't think that there's any way of getting around having cod liver oil and beef liver and vitamin A in the form of retinol-rich sources because beta-carotene is converted in the body.

  So if somebody was to go out and eat a bunch of carrots you know, it's a twelve to one ratio, but that's if our body isn't under excess stress from, you know, oxidative stress from iron not moving effectively. So that conversion doesn't mean that that's necessarily how it's going to happen. And that would be...

  You know, I would say some of the clients who take a longer time to heal that I've worked with are ones who have been vegans in the past and they, they can struggle with different things that pop up. So I would say vegans are typically not attracted to the way that I approach things.

  Michelle: I kind of-- I, I-- in the same [00:22:00] boat. I mean, I do o-often suggest organ meats, and sometimes you had mentioned also spleen, but they, they have a really nice concoction of all types of organ meats, sometimes a blend that they'll sell. But organ meats, according to Chinese medicine, which is my background, is they're the most bang for your buck.

  I mean, we usually, typically, when we eat meat, we eat the muscle, so we're not really getting the nutrient-dense organ meats. But when you do have the organ meats, they really, you know, they're very nutrient-dense and very supportive of blood qi, the body, reproduction.

  Samantha: yeah.

  and like when we think of the, the spleen in traditional Chinese medicine, it has such a huge role and is so undervalued, but so, so important. And I can tell, I can typically tell when a client messages me and they're like, "I need some support," it-- they really are like those over-consumers [00:23:00] and I'm like, "Well, your spleen needs a little bit of love and attention here.

  I bet you've had some iron supplements," 'cause it's... You can start to sense it. So Yeah.

  And a lot of the focus is around the liver, but the spleen is, is so important

  Michelle: Yeah, for sure. And you had talked about spirulina as well. Chlorella as well, do you ever suggest? And, and talk about splur- spirulina and the benefits just for people listening.

  Samantha: So spirulina isn't something that-- It, I mean, it's included with the Formula IQ one, but that wouldn't be a typical route that I would go with a client. So spirulina can be helpful, has a role with helping chelate excess iron. As I'm not super familiar with it

  Michelle: does as well. Yeah. It, it it binds and, and cleans out... clears out. So sometimes I'll do both. It's a very detoxifying... Yeah.

  Samantha: Mm-hmm.

  I, I would like for me, if I was going to have a client start something that's going to help bind and chelate iron, I'd be looking like an [00:24:00] IP6 supplement. I'd be looking more at like colostrum, things like that to, to help regulate it. If maybe somebody can't do blood donations maybe they aren't, don't have access to doing a bunch of blood work to help pull out some of that excess iron, things like that.

  Those would be typically the route that I would go before spirulina, mainly because those are the ones that I'm more familiar with.

  Michelle: And so somebody can look I guess, on a blood test like they're low in iron, but be excess iron?

  Samantha: That's right. That's right, 'cause we're only...

  Michelle: know that? How would they know that that's the case?

  Samantha: Well, they can go based on their symptoms.

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Samantha: So think of it more like a bell curve, where if we are deviating from that state of balance, then it could be high, it could be low. I would say, you know, people who are low, quote-unquote, in iron on their blood work, those ones I would say keep me up at night more than somebody who has high iron on their blood work, because at least the ones who [00:25:00] are high in iron are avoiding iron-fortified foods, they're avoiding iron supplements, they're avoiding those additional stressors.

  The ones who are low in iron are getting iron infusions, they're taking iron supplements, they're taking all of these additional things. And part of the issue is it forces the spleen to work six times harder. So some people will have benefits from taking the iron supplements, and I say benefits very loosely because I think we really need to question what does a benefit mean when we're looking at these different things.

  Because, you know, as long as we see a reduction in the symptoms that we want, then we think that it works. So for example, like birth control, taking away heavy periods, does that mean that that works? Well, if iron's regulated through blood loss, then I find it very hard to believe that birth control does work in the sense that for how we want it to when we're, if we're thinking of optimal health over a long period of time.

  I myself took birth control for 15 years, so that means that on [00:26:00] average we'll lose about one blood donation a year. So I have 15 years of blood donations- or 15 blood donations to do over the years, so say four to five years, just to get me back to where I should have been naturally. And so I think part of it comes down to us questioning what does working actually mean?

  And so i-in my sense, I'm looking at it through how can we help the body heal? How can we help the body detoxify? And I think that that's really important when we're looking at it through that lens there. So if we're having, you know, symptoms of gray hair, if we're having hair loss, if we're having itchy skin, if we're having you know, low iron, things like that, weight gain, different fertility struggles perimenopause symptoms, hot flashes, all these different things are the body trying to tell us that it's not at a state of balance.

  And so supporting it and giving it that time to heal would be the, the route to go. But just because it's showing that it's either-- I mean, I [00:27:00] myself, when I was not pregnant, was, I'd say, like a poster child of where we want our iron to be. I never had a high hemoglobin, but I had this beautiful 80 to 120 ferritin.

  Meanwhile, I was struggling with depression. I was struggling with anxiety. I was struggling with skin issues. I had all of these different issues, but my blood work was where we wanted it to be. And a large part is because, you know, the people who are interpreting the blood work aren't being taught how iron moves through the body.

  They're looking at it through this lens, and that lens isn't actually telling us when we're looking at these ranges that are so significant as to whether or not the body is at a state of balance or not.

  Michelle: It's fascinating. So you're talking about bloodletting as a way to cleanse excess iron?

  Samantha: so important. I really think the key is not only just moving iron, but removing it, I think the solution to

  Michelle: Because it circulates, so it's harder to remove other than bloodletting.

  Samantha: Yeah.[00:28:00]

  I think it's really concerning when we think about the amount of places that we can go and get an iron infusion, but then think of the places that we can go and have iron removed from our tissues. It's not that easy. So, again, it's a heavy metal. I would never recommend anybody go and get a copper infusion because that's not how we were designed.

  Iron's meant to be absorbed through the small intestine, so by avoiding that, that's another concern that I have. But when we bloodlet, there's this hormone that the body produces, and it's called EPO. And I don't know why, but I think of it like Lord Farquaad. So I picture him, like, standing on top of a little hill, and then he has his team divided up into two, ready for battle.

  And so he turns to one team and he says, "I want you to release more iron from the tissues." And then he turns to the other team and says, "I want you to build more red blood cells." And so as we produce more EPO, that's the goal. When we have a hemorrhage, when we have a heavy blood loss, we are trying to produce more EPO.

  And so when we re-release and remove some of that blood, [00:29:00] EPO is produced, and that's really beneficial. So when we have blood loss, that's essentially what we're after. It's not necessarily the amount of iron that we're losing in that blood donation or bloodletting. It's that we wanna get to that hormone to start being produced So that the body can start to release and feel safe and release more iron from the tissues.

  Michelle: So when you were saying early on, when you talked about your own experience giving birth and bleeding a lot, you believe that, I mean, it, it was because you had a lot of iron in your prenatals and your body was having so much. Because there, there's definitely 100% a correlation. Nobody knows, like, what came first, the chicken or the egg, with excess bleeding, heavy periods, and iron deficiency.

  Samantha: Yeah, absolutely. So I would say I took iron supplements, I took prenatals and, you know, iron, iron's regulated through blood loss. That's a very common understanding of [00:30:00] how iron is, is, is regulated. And with that being the case, it wouldn't make any sense to me to, you know, think of, well, what's happening when we have a heavy blood loss?

  If that's how iron is regulated, then our body isn't out to get us, even when people have autoimmune conditions and they think that their body's attacking them. The body just doesn't feel safe. There's an energetic component to things as well. And so I think that that's really important. But I mean, when I was 13, I used to have heavy periods.

  I used to end up in the hospital from how much blood I used to lose, and they were completely debilitating. Well, I was no poster child of healthy habits. I would eat my Hot Pockets. I would have, like, ranch in excess. We did not eat healthy at the house, and the amount of iron that I would've been consuming just through foods alone would have been just excessive.

  So, it makes sense now when I'm looking back at it to see. But yeah, I absolutely believe that the iron that I consumed while I was pregnant [00:31:00] definitely was a contributing factor to that.

  Michelle: Mm-hmm, because your body was trying to get rid of it.

  Samantha: That's right. It's gonna take the opportunity. It's gonna say, "Well, it's now or never. Let's dump it.

  Michelle: And so I'm thinking about men because at, at the very least, women are able to get menstrual cycles once a month you know, at least bleed, you know. So with men, they don't really have that opportunity. So would you say that it's even more important for them to donate blood?

  Samantha: Yeah.

  absolutely. That and like menopausal women as well need to start removing it. Yeah. so, so important to be looking at doing regular bloodletting is, is, is crucial. There was a study that was done, and they looked at men and women, and they were looking at heart conditions. And men were 16 times more likely to have heart issues than women were until the woman had either gone through menopause or had a [00:32:00] hysterectomy.

  And then once they had done that, then they had the same likelihood of heart conditions as men. So, you know, bloodletting has so many different effects on the body, but hysterectomies, I would say, are another one where if we've had a hysterectomy, then we need to be looking at removing it. 'Cause the hysterectomy realm confuses me as well because if a, if a male, for example, was having issues with loose stool, their recommendation wouldn't be, "Well, let's just remove your colon and stop the loose stool from happening."

  So just going and removing our womb, our-- we were designed to have that womb. That has a purpose. So just removing it is removing the mode of communication. It's removing how the body's trying to balance itself. It's not getting to the crux of why is that imbalance happening in the first place.

  Michelle: I agree 100%. I had two doctors try to convince me to have a hysterectomy because I already had my kids and I had fibroids, and I was like, "Nah, I don't, I don't wanna get rid of my [00:33:00] womb." I still... And I, and I enjoy my monthly bleeds. I actually, like, really do think that it's it feel, it feels like a release.

  You really do feel this kind of cleanse, so it makes sense, a lot of what you're saying. It's very interesting. And what would you suggest if people wanna, like, look into it? Just, you had mentioned somebody that you listen to that speaks about this as well.

  Samantha: Morley Robbins is the founder of the Root Cause Protocol, so that's an excellent place to start. If they're interested in like the perspective that I have on women's health, then I have so many free e-books. I have lots of free content on social media. That's a, a good place to start as well. But Morley Robbins and the Root Cause Protocol is a, is a Great.

  place.

  Michelle: Awesome. And, and how can people find you?

  Samantha: So I have my website, which is wellnessandwomb.com, and I have, you know, different modes of social media platforms that are all linked there. But that would be the main way to go about finding me and being able to [00:34:00] download some of the free content that I have.

  Michelle: And you're also very active on social media, sharing a lot of this content. W- what's your Instagram handle?

  Samantha: So it's wellnesswomb with an underscore at the end, and then TikTok is the other one I would say that's bustling, and that one is wellnessandwomb with a A-N-D.

  Michelle: Okay, and both can be found on the website

  Samantha: You got it.

  Michelle: links on the episode notes if anybody wants to find it, and then people can find your e-books as well on your website,

  Samantha: That's right. That's right.

  Michelle: This is fascinating. Did I miss anything? Was there anything extra that you think that would be really good for the listeners to know as far as questions?

  Samantha: Yeah. I, I think that there's a, a large issue when we're thinking of women's health and how a lot of the narrative has been for the last hundred and, you know, 30 years that we have to outsource, that our bodies don't know what they're doing, and that [00:35:00] we need to, you know, find different ways to essentially medicate ourselves.

  Like, especially when we're thinking of perimenopause and hormone replacement therapy and birth control and all these different things, it just doesn't make any sense. Our bodies weren't designed broken, and they're just trying to regulate themselves. So I think the more we can allow our bodies to speak to us, the better off things are going to be, and I think that's really important.

  Michelle: I agree. I-- Our bodies are incredibly intelligent, and symptoms are actually our friends. They're trying to help us out. They're trying to guide us, and so, I think we get so annoyed with the symptoms, we wanna shut them up. And I think that also just the mainstream, I guess, medicine right now is really in that model of, like, just shutting down the symptoms 'cause they're a bother.

  But the symptoms can help us tremendously. I mean, we look at it and, and you think about bloodletting too. Thousands of years people have been doing it, and we do it in Chinese medicine, [00:36:00] some people more than others. You know, it's, it's a type of treatment that we use. In some cases, they really go crazy with it, like they go into a big vein and lots of blood comes out.

  I think that in our culture people get freaked out by that kind of thing. But I've seen, I've seen some videos and taken some courses and I was like, "Whoa, that's like a little more than I've even learned." But people have done it for migraines. I mean, completely, like, bloodlet on the side of the head, and it was very scary looking, but the person never got migraines again.

  Samantha: Yeah.

  Yeah, It's, it's amazing what we can do, and it's just that stagnation, you know, whether it's energy, whether it's just the blood not flowing effectively. There's, you know, there's so much to the healing with it, and I think that's also part of why so many women have thyroid issues is because we're muting our body communicating with us.

  Well, that's like our throat. So our bodies, yeah, it's gonna start to tell us these different things that are popping up But I think [00:37:00] bloodletting is so important, and acupuncture is one of, like, the first places that if somebody has any kind of reservation, I'm like, "Go get some acupuncture. Go do some bloodletting, and you'll see that it's completely fine."

  Michelle: Yeah. They knew, they knew back then. They were very smart, very wise.

  Samantha: So, so smart.

  Michelle: awesome. Well, Samantha, this was really fascinating. I really... I learned a lot myself, and those are my favorite. Those are the best interviews because I always love learning more myself on so many different topics. But I think this particular topic is incredibly important.

  I think that a lot of people really need to hear this information, so thank you so much for coming on today.

  Samantha: Thank you for having me.

  Michelle: Awesome

  [00:38:00]

Ep 392 The Second Clock Inside Your Body: The Rhythm Women Were Never Taught to Read

Most women have been told their cycle is something to manage, track for fertility, or push through. What almost no one is saying is that your cycle is a second biological clock running inside your body at all times. The circadian rhythm is roughly 24 hours and is governed by light. The infradian rhythm is roughly 28 days and is governed by the menstrual cycle. Men have one main rhythm. Women have two. This is not a flaw in our design. It is added intelligence.

In this solo episode, Michelle walks you through what is actually happening underneath the surface of each phase. Your brain structure shifts across the cycle. Your immune system, metabolism, insulin sensitivity, microbiome, and nervous system are all moving with you. You will learn why the same stressor can feel completely different from one week to the next, why luteal phase cravings are real signals and not willpower failures, and how to begin matching your work, food, and rest to the phase you are actually in. Whether you are trying to conceive or simply want to stop fighting your own body, this episode offers a more accurate map of how you are designed to function.

Key Takeaways:

• • Women have two main biological rhythms. The circadian rhythm is roughly 24 hours. The infradian rhythm is roughly 28 days and is governed by the menstrual cycle. Most lifestyle and research advice is built around the male 24-hour clock, which is part of why so many women feel exhausted.

  • Your brain structure literally changes across the cycle. The hippocampus shifts in volume, connectivity between regions changes, and verbal fluency, spatial reasoning, and pain perception all move with the phases. Feeling like a different person at different times of the month is neurobiology, not emotional volatility.

  • Your immune system is rhythmic. It is more active in the first half of the cycle and shifts after ovulation, when progesterone becomes mildly immunosuppressive to prepare the uterus for a possible embryo. This is why colds, autoimmune flares, and allergies can shift across the month.

  • Basal metabolic rate rises slightly in the luteal phase, and insulin sensitivity changes. The same meal can land differently depending on where you are in your cycle. Luteal phase cravings are often a real signal of higher energy needs.

  • The gut and vaginal microbiomes also shift cyclically with hormones. You are not a static system. Everything inside your body moves with you.

  • Heart rate variability tends to be higher in the follicular phase and lower in the luteal phase. The same stressor can land very differently depending on when in the month it arrives. Your nervous system is operating from a different baseline.

  • From a TCM perspective, the liver works harder in the luteal phase to prepare for menstruation, which can show up as more irritability, less energy, and stagnation when qi is not flowing freely.

  • Working with the cycle is not just a fertility tool. It is a way of living that supports energy, focus, mood, and recovery across the entire month.

  • Practical starting points: track more than your period (energy, sleep, mood, focus, hunger, stress response), match the work to the phase when possible, and eat in a way that responds to what your body is actually doing in each phase.
    

Research and Resources Cited:

• Brain structure and function changes across the menstrual cycle (hippocampal volume)

• Cyclical changes in hippocampal volume across the menstrual cycle

• Menstrual cycle effects on cognition: verbal fluency and spatial reasoning

• Pain perception and threat sensitivity across the menstrual cycle

• Progesterone and immune modulation in the luteal phase

• Basal metabolic rate variation across the menstrual cycle

• Insulin sensitivity and the menstrual cycle

• Gut microbiome variation across the menstrual cycle

• Vaginal microbiome shifts across the menstrual cycle

• Heart rate variability across the menstrual cycle

• Cortisol and HPA axis response across the menstrual cycle

Disclaimer: The information shared on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider before making any changes to your health or fertility care.

Ready to discover what your body needs most on your fertility journey?
Take the personalized quiz inside The Wholesome Fertility Journey and get tailored resources to meet you exactly where you are:

https://www.michelleoravitz.com/the-wholesome-fertility-journey

For more about my work and offerings, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Curious about ancient wisdom for fertility? Grab my book The Way of Fertility:
https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

Join the Wholesome Fertility Facebook Group for free resources & community support:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Connect with me on social:
Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility
Facebook: The Wholesome Lotus

Disclaimer: Some of the links shared are affiliates but this is at no cost to you and can even get you discounted prices!

• Transcript

  Michelle Oravitz (00:00) The cycle is the second clock. are two main biological rhythms running inside your body at all times. The first is the circadian rhythm and it's roughly 24 hours long and it's governed by light and organizes things like sleep, body temperature, hormone release and digestion. Most people have heard of the circadian rhythm, but the second is called the infradian rhythm and it's roughly 28 days long. It's governed by the menstrual and it organizes a much wider set of functions in the female body. This is the one that almost never gets talked about outside of fertility conversations. Men have one main rhythm, the daily one. Women have two. And that is not a flaw in our design. It's actually an added intelligence. But because most research and most lifestyle advice is built around the male 24 hour clock, Women are essentially being asked to live as if they only had one rhythm, two. And that is where so much of the exhaustion comes from. We're not built to do the same thing every day at the same intensity. We're built to move through phases. I want to give you a quick overview of the phases, but I want to keep it simple. There are entire books on this and we're not going to cover every single detail. The menstrual phase when bleeding happens phase of inward attention and lower energy. The brain has more communication between hemispheres during this phase, which is part of why intuitive insight tends to be stronger here. And the follicular phase is after the bleed when estrogen begins to rise. This is when energy comes back, mood lifts and the body and mind are more responsive to new input. Verbal and learning capacity peaks here. Avulation is the brief window in the middle of the cycle. Estrogen and testosterone are at their highest and communication and confidence peak. This is the most outward social phase. In the luteal phase, the second half of the cycle is governed by progesterone. Progesterone is calming, but it also requires more energy from the body to produce, which is part of why the luteal phase often feels more demanding. Energy turns inward and the nervous system is more sensitive to stress and sleep deprivation. That is the simple version. What I want to talk about now is what's happening underneath in the systems that almost no one connects to the cycle, your brain across the cycle. This is one of the most fascinating areas of recent research. Brain imaging studies have shown that the structure of the brain changes across the menstrual cycle. hippocampus, which is involved in memory and learning, actually changes in volume across the month. Connectivity between different regions of the brain shifts. Verbal fluency tends to peak in the late follicular phase. Spatial reasoning and certain kinds of analytical thinking shift across phases. pain perception and threat sensitivity changes as well. So this is not in your head. This is your head. The fact that you feel like a different person at of the month is not emotional volatility. It's actually neurobiology. Once you know this, can stop apologizing for it. You can plan more demanding cognitive work for the phases your brain is built for. You can give yourself permission to do less in the phases where your brain is asking for less. Your immune system is also rhythmic. In the first half of the cycle before ovulation, the immune system is relatively active. After ovulation, it shifts. Progesterone is mildly immunosuppressive. This is intentional. The body is preparing the uterus to potentially accept an embryo, which from an immune standpoint is foreign. This is part of why some women notice they catch colds more easily in the second half of their cycle or why autoimmune flares can shift across the month or why allergies fluctuate. It's also part of why support during the luteal phase looks different than support during the follicular phase. Your basal metabolic rate is not constant. It rises slightly in the second half of the cycle, after ovulation. This is why some women feel hungrier during the luteal phase And that's because they are the body is burning more energy. Insulin sensitivity also shifts. Most women are more insulin sensitive in the follicular phase and slightly less so in the luteal phase. This means the same meal can produce different blood sugar responses depending on where you are in your cycle. Cravings in the luteal phase are not a failure of willpower. They are often a real sign of higher energy needs and shifting blood sugar regulation. Listening to those signals tends to work better than fighting them. both the gut and the vaginal microbiome shift across the menstrual cycle. Estrogen and progesterone affect the bacterial environment of the reproductive tract, the pH and the integrity of the lining. The gut microbiome also shows cyclical changes that track with hormones. In other words, even the bacteria living inside your body are operating on a cyclical rhythm. static system, you are a moving one, and everything inside your body is moving with you. The nervous system across the cycle is the piece that ties everything together HRV, is heart rate variability And one of the best markers we have of nervous system flexibility shifts across the cycle. It tends to be higher in the follicular phase and lower in the luteal phase. This means that the same stressor can land very differently depending on when in the month it arrives. Cortisol response is also cyclical. Sleep needs to change. Sensitivity to caffeine, to alcohol, to news, to conflict, all of it can shift. If you've ever felt like you handled something fine one week and then the same thing felt impossible the next, you're not unstable. You're not overreacting. Your nervous system is operating from a different baseline. The capacity is genuinely different. From a TCM perspective, this can look like the liver trying to prepare for the menstrual cycle in the luteal phase. And because it has more to focus on, it's not able to ensure the free flow of chi. And this can come out as more stress, less energy, more irritability. But knowing this can change how you plan your life, your work and your rest. Why this matters whether or not you're trying to conceive. I want to be clear about something. This understanding is not just for women in the fertility window. Your cycle is your operating system from your first period to menopause. It's your body's way of organizing energy, attention, repair, and creativity across the month. Working with it is not a fertility intervention. It's a way of living. And when you are trying to conceive specifically, this matters even more. Because optimizing the cycle is not just about ovulation. It's about whether your whole system is in a state of coherence. Whether the brain, immune system, metabolism, microbiome, and nervous system are all running on a rhythm that supports new life. Fertility is not a single event. It's a whole body state. The cycle is the rhythm that creates that state. So how do you start working with this? A few simple pieces to start. Track your cycle, but track more than just your period. Track your energy, sleep, mood, focus, hunger, and how your nervous system is responding to ordinary stress. Is it more adaptable or is it less adaptable? After two or three months, the patterns will start to show themselves. You'll see a rhythm, you'll see where the dips are, and you'll see what your body is asking for. Match the work to the phase when you can. Bigger projects, harder workouts, social commitments in the follicular and the avulatory phases, slower work, restorative movement, more rest in the late luteal and menstrual phases. This is not always possible, but even partial alignment makes a difference. Eat in a way that responds to what your body is doing. More iron and warming foods around the bleed, more cruciferous vegetables and lighter meals in the follicular phase, and more complex carbohydrates and steady protein in the luteal phase when you need a little more energy and blood support. And most importantly, stop apologizing for being cyclical. The rhythm is not the problem. The expectation that you should override it is the problem. Your cycle is not a vulnerability. It's a form of intelligence. It is your body keeping time with itself, with the seasons, with the moon, and with the light. When you stop treating it as a problem and start treating it as information, everything changes. If this episode reframed something for you, share it with a woman in your life who needs to hear it. And if you're walking the fertility path right now, know that working with a cycle instead of against it is one of the most powerful things you can do. Thank you for joining me today and I will see you in the next one.

Ep 391 The Hidden Conversation Inside Your Body That Could Be Affecting Your Fertility

There is a quiet conversation happening inside your body that may be shaping your fertility more than almost anything else you have been told to focus on. It is happening in your gut, your reproductive tract, and your uterus. Until recently, science assumed the uterus was sterile. We now know it is not, and the bacterial communities living in these three places are in constant communication with one another, influencing your hormones, your immune response, and your ability to conceive and carry a pregnancy.

In this solo episode, Michelle walks you through what the research actually shows about the gut, vaginal, and uterine microbiomes, why this is one of the most overlooked pieces of the fertility puzzle, and what you can realistically do to support these ecosystems without falling into fear or expensive supplement spirals. You will learn why diversity is wonderful in the gut but not always ideal in the reproductive tract, how the estrobolome regulates your hormones, and how nervous system regulation, sleep, fiber, and fermented foods quietly shape the entire system. This is a grounded, science-backed conversation that gives you a clearer map of your own body.

Key Takeaways:

• The uterus is not sterile. It has its own microbiome that influences implantation, pregnancy, and live birth rates.

• A reproductive tract dominated by Lactobacillus is associated with significantly better fertility outcomes, including higher IVF success and lower miscarriage and preterm birth rates.

• Diversity in the gut microbiome is healthy. In the uterus and lower reproductive tract, the opposite is true. A quieter, Lactobacillus-dominant environment is what supports fertility.

• The estrobolome, a collection of gut bacteria, regulates how your body metabolizes and clears estrogen. When it is off, estrogen can recirculate and contribute to issues like endometriosis, fibroids, and irregular cycles.

• Roughly 70 percent of your immune system lives in your gut, and gut inflammation can show up as uterine inflammation, affecting implantation.

• Antibiotics, hormonal birth control, chronic stress, poor sleep, and harsh products like douches and scented washes all disrupt these microbiomes.

• Foundational support is simple and accessible: a wide variety of plant fibers, real fermented foods, consistent sleep, nervous system regulation, and leaving the lower reproductive tract alone.

• Microbiome testing is now far more accessible and gives you specific information about your own body, so you can stop guessing and make targeted choices instead of throwing every wellness tool at the problem.
  

Disclaimer: The information shared on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider before making any changes to your health or fertility care.

Research and Resources Cited:

• The endometrial microbiome and its impact on reproductive outcomes

• Evidence that the endometrial microbiota has an effect on implantation success or failure

• Lactobacillus-dominant vaginal microbiome and pregnancy outcomes

• The vaginal microbiome and preterm birth

• Estrobolome: the gut microbiome and estrogen metabolism

• The gut microbiome and the female reproductive system

• Vagus nerve, gut-brain axis, and reproductive health

• Antibiotic use and the female microbiome

Ready to discover what your body needs most on your fertility journey?
Take the personalized quiz inside The Wholesome Fertility Journey and get tailored resources to meet you exactly where you are:

https://www.michelleoravitz.com/the-wholesome-fertility-journey

For more about my work and offerings, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Curious about ancient wisdom for fertility? Grab my book The Way of Fertility:
https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

Join the Wholesome Fertility Facebook Group for free resources & community support:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Connect with me on social:
Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility
Facebook: The Wholesome Lotus

Disclaimer: Some of the links shared are affiliates but this is at no cost to you and can even get you discounted prices!

• Transcript

  Speaker 2: [00:00:00] Welcome back to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. I'm your host Michelle Orbits, and today we're going into one of the most important conversations around fertility. We're going to talk about the microbiome, but not just the gut microbiome that you've probably heard about, but the vaginal microbiome and the uterine microbiome, and the conversation that is constantly happening between all three of them.

  This is one of the fastest moving areas of reproductive science right now, and almost no one is translating it for the woman who actually needs to hear it. So that is what I want to do today. I want to give you a clear, honest picture of what's happening inside your body and why it matters for fertility and what you can actually do about it.

  So let's get started.

  Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. I'm Michelle, a fertility acupuncturist here to provide you [00:01:00] with resources on how to create a wholesome approach to your fertility 

  journey.

  Speaker 3: Let me start with a piece of context that I think is going to surprise some of you. For most of modern medical history, the inside of the uterus was assumed to be sterile. The thinking was that the cervix acted as a gatekeeper and that the bacteria found inside the uterus must be a sign of infection.

  That assumption is wrong. Research over the last decade has shown that the uterus has its own resident microbial community. It is much smaller and quieter than the gut or the reproductive tract, but it is there. And the composition of that community appears to influence implantation, pregnancy maintenance, and even early pregnancy loss.

  So we're not talking about one microbiome anymore. We're talking about three. The gut, the lower reproductive [00:02:00] tract, and the uterus. Each one with its own dominant species. Each one shaped by what you eat, how you sleep, how stressed you are what medications you've taken, and what your hormonal environment looks like.

  And here is where it gets really interesting. These three communities are not isolated. They're in constant communication. Let's start with the lower reproductive tract because this is the one with the clearest fertility implications. A healthy reproductive microbiome is dominated by a single strain of bacteria called Lactobacillus.

  In women whose reproductive microbiome is more than 90% Lactobacillus, fertility outcomes are measurably better. IVF success rates are higher, miscarriage rates are lower, preterm birth rates are lower. And when Lactobacillus drops below the threshold and other bacteria start to take up more space, we see what is called dysbiosis.

  And [00:03:00] dysbiosis in the environment is associated with implantation failure, recurrent pregnancy loss, and chronic inflammation. This is not a small effect. In some studies, women with non-Lactobacillus dominant reproductive microbiome had implantation rates roughly half of those with a healthy microbiome.

  And here's what almost no one talks about. A lot of standard fertility workups do not test for this. You can do round after round of blood work, ultrasounds, and hormone panels and never have anyone look at the bacterial environment your embryo's actually trying to land in. The lower reproductive tract is not just a passageway.

  It's actually an ecosystem, and that ecosystem is talking to the uterus on the other side of the cervix all the time. Now let's go up one level into the uterus itself. This is the newer research, and it's still being refined. But what we are seeing consistently is that the [00:04:00] uterine microbiome influences something called endometrial receptivity.

  Receptivity is just a clinical word for whether the lining of the uterus is in a state where an embryo can successfully implant. In a study that's been replicated several times, women whose uterine microbiomes were dominated by Lactobacillus had significantly higher implantation, pregnancy, and live birth rates compared to women whose uterine microbiomes had more bacterial diversity in the wrong direction.

  This is counterintuitive. In the gut, we actually want diversity. A diverse gut microbiome generally is a healthy one. But in the uterus and in the lower reproductive tract, the opposite is true. We want a quieter, more lactobacillus-dominant environment, and that is really an important distinction because if you've heard about the microbiome health in general, you've [00:05:00] probably heard the message that diversity is a good thing, and it is, but only in the right place.

  Now let's talk about the gut, because the gut is the through line that connects all of this. Your gut microbiome influences your hormones in several specific ways. There's a collection of gut bacteria called estrobolome that helps regulate how your body metabolizes and clears estrogen. When the estrobolome is functioning well, estrogen is processed and eliminated in a healthy rhythm.

  When it's not, estrogen can recirculate, build up, and contribute to conditions like endometriosis, fibroids, PMS, and irregular cycles. Your gut also produces and influences neurotransmitters that affect the HPA axis, which is the stress response system, and the stress response system is in direct conversation with the reproductive system.

  So when the gut [00:06:00] is inflamed, when it is dysbiotic, when it is leaky, the downstream effects show up in places that have nothing to do with digestion. They actually show up in the cycle, in the lining, and they show up in implantation. So this is why so many women are doing everything right on paper, eating clean, taking prenatals, tracking their cycle, and still feeling like something's off.

  Because the gut is the upstream piece that Often people don't really get tested. So how does this conversation actually work? There's a direct migration. Bacteria from the gut can travel and influence the reproductive microbiome. This is part of why women with chronic gut issues often also have recurrent imbalances in the reproductive tract.

  There is hormonal signaling, and the gut influences estrogen. Estrogen influences the lining of the reproductive tract, and that lining is what feeds lactobacillus. So a gut [00:07:00] imbalance can cascade upward into the reproductive imbalance without even direct migration. And there's also immune signaling.

  Roughly 70% of your immune system lives in your gut. That immune system communicates with the immune cells in the uterus, which are heavily involved in implantation. A chronically inflamed gut creates a chronically inflamed uterus, and there is nervous system layer too, which I always come back to. The vagus nerve runs through the gut and signals up to the brain, which then signals down into the ovaries and the uterus And when the gut is distressed, that distress travels along this pathway.

  Everything is connected by design. So what disrupts these microbiomes? A short list, because this is where the practical part starts. Antibiotics, especially repeated courses, can disrupt all three microbiomes for months or [00:08:00] even years. This doesn't mean antibiotics are wrong. In many cases, they can save lives.

  But what it does mean is recovery from them takes intentional support. And hormonal birth control changes the reproductive microbiome in measurable ways. Some women bounce back quickly when coming off of it, but others can take a year or more. Chronic stress also shifts the gut microbiome through the gut-brain axis.

  The bacteria in the gut respond to your nervous system because your gut has its own nervous system. And diet also matters, especially fiber, fermented foods, and the absence of high amounts of processed sugar and emulsifiers. Sleep matters as well. Alcohol matters. And one more piece, douching, scented products, and harsh soaps disrupt the lactobacillus dominance that you actually want to protect.

  The body is self-cleaning, so we don't [00:09:00] really need to do extra to clean it. Here's the part where I wanna keep things grounded Because the wellness world tends to turn this into a long list of expensive products, and that is not where I want to take you. The foundation is fiber. A wide variety of plant fibers feeds the beneficial bacteria in your gut, which then sets the conditions for everything downstream.

  Aim for diversity, so different colors, different plants, different sources of fiber across the week. Fermented foods that are actually fermented. Real sauerkraut, kimchi, kefir, plain yogurt with live cultures, full fat, of course. A small amount of daily dose does a large amount once a week. And sleep. The gut microbiome has its own circadian rhythm, and it is disrupted by inconsistent sleep, so this is one of the most underrated interventions.

  And nervous system regulation. The gut microbiome in your gut respond [00:10:00] to your vagal tone, so the vagus nerve is the bidirectional communication between your enteric nervous system, which is the nervous system of your gut, and your central nervous system, which encompasses your brain. So the bacteria in your gut respond to your vagal tone.

  Slow exhales, time outdoors, and real rest are all microbiome interventions, even though they may not look like they have any connections to your gut. And for the lower reproductive tract specifically, leave it alone. No douching, no scented products, breathable underwear, and gently unscented cleansing on the outside only.

  I would even go as far as Try to avoid tampons, and if you really must, if you really must and you have things to do, then use organic ones only. So here's what I want to leave you with before the close. So much of what I've seen in my work is women doing all the right general things and still feeling like they're missing information.

  [00:11:00] Because general advice can only take you so far. At some point, you need to know what is actually happening in your specific body. That is what microbiome testing offers. So instead of guessing whether your gut or reproductive environment is supporting your fertility, you can actually look. You see what is dominant, you see what is missing, you see what is overgrown possibly, and then you make targeted decisions instead of throwing the whole wellness toolkit at the problem.

  This kind of testing has become much more accessible in the last few years. It's not as out of reach as it used to be, and the information it gives you can change the entire direction of your fertility journey, which is why I wanna mention before we close that this is something that I now offer in my practice and online.

  I work with women on both gut and reproductive microbiome testing, and we use those results to build a real specific plan rather than a [00:12:00] general one that might not be as effective. So if this is something you've been wondering about, you can find out more information through the links in the show notes, and I would absolutely love to support you.

  Your body is not a mystery. It's an ecosystem, and ecosystems can be tended to. The microbiomes inside your body are listening to how you live, responding to how you eat and how you sleep, and how safe your nervous system feels. They're not asking for perfection. They are asking for consistent care and nurturing.

  So if this episode opened something up for you, you might wanna share this with a friend who's on a similar path. And if you're ready for more specific support, you know where to find me

  Speaker: So that concludes today's episode. You can find all of the links mentioned on the episode notes. If you're enjoying these episodes, please take a moment to share and leave a review. Reviews mean everything to podcasters, and I really enjoy hearing from my listeners. You can find me on my [00:13:00] website at www.michelleorbitz.com.

  You could also reach out to me on Instagram, and I love getting DMs from my listeners. My handle is @thewholesomelotusfertility. I thank you so much for tuning in today, and I hope you have a beautiful [00:14:00] day.

EP 390 The Inflammation Code: How Ayurveda, Elemental Design, and Turmeric Support Fertility

Dr. Shivani Gupta returns to the podcast to share what she has learned since writing her new Hay House book, The Inflammation Code. In this conversation we explore why inflammation is rising so dramatically in modern life and how that plays into fertility, hormone balance, and overall vitality. Dr. Shivani breaks down the three doshas in Ayurveda, which she calls Elemental Design, and explains how understanding your own makeup of air, fire, and earth can help you choose the foods, rhythms, and rituals that actually nourish your body. We also talk about Mental Inflammation, circadian living, the healing power of nature, and why modern life keeps so many women stuck in survival mode. Dr. Shivani shares the science behind turmeric, why absorption matters, and when to use it and when to pause it during IVF and transfer windows. This is a grounded, practical conversation about returning to ancient wisdom in a way that feels doable in real life.

Key Takeaways:

• Inflammation is rising because of environmental toxins, processed foods, chronic stress, and constant mental stimulation. The body is living in survival mode rather than thriving.

• Ayurveda teaches that each of us has a unique Elemental Design made of air, fire, and earth. Knowing your primary and secondary doshas helps you choose foods, rhythms, and rituals that bring you back into balance.

• Mental Inflammation is a real physiological state created by constant phone use, email, and sympathetic activation. It feeds physical inflammation, and physical inflammation feeds it back.

• Living in rhythm with nature’s circadian clock is one of the most powerful and free tools we have. Walking outside, eating seasonally, and sleeping from 10 to 2 supports lymphatic clearance and reduces inflammation.

• Preparing the body for conception through gentle detoxification, nourishment, and tissue health is the same work that supports vibrancy through perimenopause. A vibrant body is a fertile body.

• Turmeric is one of the most powerful natural anti-inflammatories we have, but absorption matters. Black pepper and healthy fats increase bioavailability significantly.

• Turmeric can support fertility conditions linked to inflammation such as endometriosis, PCOS, and recurrent implantation challenges, but it should be paused during IVF cycles and transfer windows because it thins the blood and can thin the uterine lining.

• Supplementation should be phased with the guidance of a practitioner. Every season of the body calls for a different protocol.
  

Guest Bio:

Dr. Shivani Gupta is an Ayurvedic practitioner, turmeric researcher, and speaker who blends classical Ayurveda with functional medicine to help women calm inflammation, balance hormones, and restore energy. With a Master’s in Ayurvedic Sciences and a PhD focused on turmeric, she translates ancient wisdom into simple daily rituals, including Elemental Design personalization, Mental Inflammation resets, gut and estrobolome support, and spice-based micro-habits. Her new book, The Inflammation Code (Hay House, February 2026), is a practical, non-diet system for cooling chronic inflammation to improve brain fog, bloat, pain, sleep, and mood. Dr. Shivani is the host of the Fusionary Health Podcast and creator of the Emmy-nominated TV show Vibrant Health with Dr. Shivani Gupta. Learn more at shivanigupta.com.

Connect with Dr. Gupta:Instagram: @dr.shivanigupta | https://www.instagram.com/dr.shivanigupta

Facebook: @theshivanigupta | https://www.facebook.com/TheShivaniGupta

YouTube: @dr.shivanigupta | https://www.youtube.com/@dr.shivanigupta/videos

Pinterest: @theshivanigupta | https://www.pinterest.com/theshivanigupta

Website: https://www.shivanigupta.com

Disclaimer: The information shared on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider before making any changes to your health or fertility care.

The Inflammation Code book: https://www.theinflammationcode.com

Fusionary Formulas: https://www.fusionaryformulas.com (code WHOLESOMEFERTILITY for 15% off)

7-Day Inflammation Detox Challenge: https://www.7dayinflammationdetox.com/optin1641313075014

The Inflammation Code Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-inflammation-code/id1680587836

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• Transcript

  ​[00:00:00]

  Michelle Oravitz: Welcome back to the podcast, Dr. Shivani. I had you, um, on episode 231 a while back, but I know since we last spoke, so much has changed. And, um, last time we talked about turmeric and your supplement and how you, um, have a special formulation to make it extra absorbable in the body, because that's always been like, um, I guess a challenge that supplement companies had.

  But catch us up, talk to us, because you have just, um, released a book called "The Inflammation Code," which is incredibly important for anyone who's trying to conceive. It seems to be that inflammation is on the rise, and it's, uh, something that we're just hearing about all the time, and I know that there's so many different factors, so I'm so excited to dive in.[00:01:00]

  Dr. Shivani Gupta: For sure. Um, so much has happened. I mean, you know, when you are in alignment, living your dharma, aligned with your exact purpose in life, I think That's where the universe keeps bringing all the magic in. And so about two years ago, I got a call from Hay House that said, "We want you to write this book." And I was like, "What?"

  My entire life dream, the reason I got the master's and the reason I got that PhD in turmeric was I wanted to know Ayurveda at this level that I could then teach it and write books to impact the world. And so when this book deal came along, I was like, "What? I get to write a book for Hay House? I get to teach about Ayurveda?"

  And the feedback was, look, I know, like in my case, I want the world to know Ayurveda, but I'm actually more interested in us understanding how to live in that rhythm that Ayurveda teaches, the circadian rhythm. And so I took a lot of [00:02:00] the Ayurveda concepts that are incredible, and I renamed them, and I simplified them, and I took what I've been doing with women for the last decade in my programs and in one-on-one work- And put it into the book in a very attainable way.

  And so this whole book is "Know Your Dosha," which I renamed "Elemental Design." So it's know your elemental design. That is your guiding principle to knowing the blueprint on you. You are more air, fire, or earth, or the most beautiful combination of the three. And our job as Ayurvedic practitioners is just to show you your most balanced place, how you feel most vibrant.

  And then in the book, I got to teach about circadian rhythm and gut health and the Sattvic diet from Ayurveda, this yogic diet. And I got to talk about self-care rituals, which is one of my favorite pieces of Ayurveda. And then I did, of course, give a tap chapter to turmeric and the super spices, 'cause turmeric is my favorite [00:03:00] core topic that I, of course, think people should know about when we're talking about inflammation.

  But the book is really like my, my love letter for all of us as women of the lifestyle we can live that gives us what we want. Because what we're asking for is what each of us wants to call in in this life. But if we're not getting there, it's just a lack of understanding how to be our most vibrant, energetic selves.

  That's my theory. And so I'm always seeking, like, how do I show you how to build ojas or vibrancy or strength or finding your alignment again, so you have that reserve and that energy to do all that you want and live your most balanced life?

  Michelle Oravitz: Love that. Love it. Um, and of course, we're gonna dive deeper on what doshas are, just in case people are hearing it for the very first time. It's really fascinating, and it's amazing 'cause it really kind of puts the ba- the power back in people's hands. Because once they really understand their own body and it starts to m- and it's very intuitive, it [00:04:00] makes a lot of sense, then they're able to say, "Oh, you know, so this is what my element tends to be, and this is what I need to do to balance it."

  And it's a lot more, um, empowering. It's something that really people can do and take on in their own lives to better their life and help their, you know, improve their health. Um, but before we get into that, I do wanna talk about why is it that you think that so many people are s- dealing with so much inflammation in this day and time, like this time of life?

  Dr. Shivani Gupta: Mm. Inflammation is increasing across the board in our society because of so many different environmental factors, but also so many lifestyle choices that we're making. And so I look at it as first, where are we when it comes to corporations, big food, big pharma, big chemical? And we're not really in a [00:05:00] good place in modern day times right now.

  I mean, we're living in a society where everything is factory farmed, no regard for the land really having the vitamins, minerals, and richness we need for a healthy microbiome. So we're really eating food that's depleted and lacking. Then when it comes to our chemical burden in general, between the pesticides and the herbicides on the food, but also every single aspect of our lives is contributing to more microplastics, ingesting toxins by breathing, water, the surfaces around us.

  And so there's an environmental toxin burden on the body that's so tremendous at this point that the body's just trying to hold strong against it. And that's not, that's not gonna lead to vibrancy. That's gonna lead to survival mode. So if the body's got so much coming at it and the body's like, "Oh, hey, Shivani, between the plastic water bottle you drank out of, the alcohol you consume," maybe I had a [00:06:00] glass of wine last week on a trip, "between the food that's completely lacking in what I need but is pesticide-ridden, I mean, how am I supposed to function and be thriving?"

  And so I look at, uh, that the environmental toxin burden first and try to figure out where can we reduce that. Like, where can we bring that down as much as possible? And then in addition, we are what we eat, and we are everything that we consume. And so that's where it gets multifactorial as well- What are you eating?

  Is it seed oils and processed foods, or is it healthier, fresher foods that are anti-inflammatory and more nourishing? Oftentimes, our diets right now are very inflammatory. Between the seed oils, the top inflammatory foods, some of which include gluten and dairy and alcohol and sugar, um, all of those can really add up to a pretty inflamed body.

  And then finally, in my book, I wrote a chapter on a topic I called Mental Inflammation. [00:07:00] I was asking the universe for a way to explain that in Ayurveda we teach that you must stand guard at the doors of your mind and really have a, a intentional practice around that. So in Ayurveda, we teach yoga and pranayama, which is deep breathing and, and really making sacred space in our day.

  And the modern-day lifestyle has us instead picking up our phone every five seconds and jumping onto social media, jumping onto email. So that mental friction, mental stress causes this mental inflammation, we can call it being in our sympathetic nervous system as well, but never being in rest and digest, never being settled, grounded, or centered or aligned.

  And that mental inflammation can cause physical inflammation. Physical inflammation then causes the mental inflammation, and we're stuck in feedback loops. So I think it's multifactorial why we as a society are so inflamed, but the fact that [00:08:00] we are so inflamed is why we are dealing with chronic disease and distress and frustration when it comes to our health, especially in women's health, all the way through the spectrum of our health journey.

  Yes.

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah, absolutely. And another thing, um, something that I love so much about Ayurveda is they actually talk about eating local foods because your body, um, is so connected with the environment and the climate, and that if you're eating certain foods that are local, those foods are actually meant to balance out the climate that you're in.

  And that's something that is really very unique. I remember, um, learning about and thinking it was just so amazing, but we don't have that anymore.

  Dr. Shivani Gupta: No. Well, the fa- the farmlands are being sold for high profits, especially, and we're both here in South Florida, where, you know, land is worth a lot. It's, it's Florida at this point. There's so much movement and growth and... [00:09:00] source local fresh food, we're in big trouble because we are circadian beings, and as circadian beings, we really need that alignment with With nature's clock, with our circadian arou- surroundings, with the season that we're in, which is what you're talking about.

  So yes, absolutely, we need this ability to order fresh, source fresh, um, go to the farmers markets on Saturdays. That is the most rich, nourishing, balancing food for us.

  Michelle Oravitz: Mm-hmm. Yeah, for sure. I, I feel like I need to do more of that myself, like, 'cause we have homestead here. There's so many things that you can get, but, um... and there are farmers markets. Like, you just have to dig deep and, and look around. But, um, you know, there's certain squashes and foods during wintertime that are actually meant to balance you out so that you're able to sustain your s- your, you know, your body's able to keep its own heat and, you know, they're, they're heating.

  It's, it's just amazing how [00:10:00] nature works. It's just like a puzzle, and it's so smart.

  Dr. Shivani Gupta: It's true. It's so true. I mean, Ayurveda teaches, just like Chinese medicine, which you also practice, Ayurveda teaches that nature is the ultimate healer, and nature holds all this wisdom, and we're meant to live in this beautiful symbiotic relationship with nature, and nature heals all things. And so any time there's a problem, I just go outside.

  I walk outside, I move in nature. I know breathing in nature is my way through any challenge, any problem, any mental frustration. And oftentimes in modern-day life, we're just sitting inside of our box, our car, our building, our room, completely disconnected from nature, and then wondering why we don't feel good.

  But our microbiome, our, our biome in general, needs to interact with nature to be its most healthy. Putting our feet in the earth, just touching n- nature is going to bring us into balance and, and we think it's too [00:11:00] simple, so we don't do it. We're instead chasing these bigger solutions. I go to all the biohacking conferences, and It's like PEMF mats and infrared saunas and, and all this tech, and I'm like, "You know, your tech is just doing exactly what nature does."

  Now,

  Michelle Oravitz: for

  Dr. Shivani Gupta: accelerate? Yeah. Nature will give it to you for free.

  You want some red light? Go walk in the morning and the evening. That is the sun giving you your red light in the exact light, right spectrum at the exact right proportions that we need, 'cause Mother Nature created it perfectly in her infinite wisdom.

  And instead we're like, "No, no, no, I need to be indoors to do my this tool, that tool, that tool, that tool to get through the homework checklist." And so I always keep both in mind. I'm, I'm a big fan of modern science and how It's proving ancient Ayurveda to be true.

  and so I do have an infrared sauna and I have some of these things, but it's very much about, okay, I'm gonna accelerate healing by using the tool, [00:12:00] but do I still do the daily practices and the daily rhythm that are gonna get my body to stay in the frequency and vibrancy that I crave?

  Michelle Oravitz: Yes. And then you also talked about yoga as being part of Ayurveda, which I don't think a lot of people realize. Yoga is not its own thing. It's actually a branch of healing. It's a modality of healing that Ayurveda used, you know, throughout history, um, as the physical therapy aspect of Ayurveda.

  Dr. Shivani Gupta: It's true. Most people don't realize that yoga and Ayurveda.

  are sister sciences, and, and part of any Ayurvedic practitioner's work is going to be giving homework around deep breathing, yoga, and things like that. Here, because we live in the US, a lot of times I don't give that homework because a lot of people don't wanna do yoga.

  They think it's too hard. It's just not something they are into. But the yogic stretches and the way we gently [00:13:00] detox the body and, and move and flow is part of any healing journey and staying in balance. It's part of our lifestyle rituals.

  Michelle Oravitz: I would say it's hard not to do it because it makes your life more difficult when you don't move. And I, uh, yoga's just, I, I find it to be an intelligent... It ha- it still has the intelligence intact. It's an intelligent exercise, and it moves your lymphatics and also the fascia. It stimulates the fascia, which stimulates healing.

  You know, so it's, uh, you know, Chinese medicine, they'll do more like qigong, qigong, um, and that kind of movement. But movement in general is so important, uh, to help also alleviate a lot of the mental inflammation as you talked about, because sometimes we try to address mental states with the mind that's already in that state, so we're spinning in circles rather than [00:14:00] really, like, moving through it and knowing, realizing that we do actually process a lot of the emotions in the body.

  Dr. Shivani Gupta: True. True. You know, I went to India years ago. I went probably two years prior to having my first child, and when I went to India, I thought, "You know, fertility is a big issue. I wanna show up so healthy when I'm ready to conceive this child." And so when I went to India, I did a three-week Panchakarma treatment, which is this profound detox.

  It's like, you can call it the oil change of all

  Michelle Oravitz: where did you do it? 'Cause I, I also did it in India. I went to Mysore.

  Dr. Shivani Gupta: You did? Okay. So we went to Bangalore. So it was me, my mom, and my sister, and I knew that the next big project I was gonna do was conceive this healthy, Organic baby who I was, like, preparing for-

  Michelle Oravitz: baby.

  Dr. Shivani Gupta: like, I, I was really, I had an organic cotton children's clothing company at the time, and so I was going to all the conferences, and we were still at the beginning of those stages of BPA-free bottles [00:15:00] and non-toxic baby lifestyle, which we have so much more of that now.

  She's 16 this year. So 17, 18 years ago, it was a different ballgame of what was accessible. And I created an organic cotton children's clothing company that was a very luxury product line back then. And it was just so fun to be in that space and learn about it pre having kids. So then I was, I was acutely more aware of all the different issues that happen in children, 'cause I was studying Ayurveda, and so many people would come to me and say, "My kid just had this injury from, you know, from different medications or different things that they were taking."

  Kids were always having chronic health issues. All my husband's friends, my husband's seven years older, so all of his friends, I could see the kids all had allergies, eczema, um, ADHD, different issues. And I thought, "Hmm, if this is what's coming for me, I need to show up to really create this healthiest baby possible."

  And so when I did Panchakarma and Ayurveda, it's basically a really big [00:16:00] detox, and the philosophy is if the body shows up healthy and your tissues are healthy and you are so vibrant and everything is coherent, which is a word you like to use around being healthy, and I love that word, and we're aligned, then what we're gonna have is a very healthy pregnancy.

  The body will bounce back well and all of those things. And so I've always been a big fan of let's detox and prepare, let's nourish and get the body's tissues and everything so healthy. Let's show up like we are going to a marathon, like that strong and healthy, and then we embark on the project. And so that's how I showed up to conception of Anya, my-- I call her Anya Rani, Anya the Queen.

  And then later when it came to this phase, like right now I'm in perimenopause at 45. So now that I'm in this transition, I'm like, it's the same work. Whether I show up vibrant and healthy and robust to go through the transition into motherhood, or I show up vibrant, healthy, and [00:17:00] robust so I can keep brain energy and body energy online in this moment.

  In, in Ayurveda, that's the exact same work we do for vibrancy. Fertility is just a vibrant body, is how we look at it. So, so Yeah.

  that's, it, it's been quite a journey of understanding how to build the most healthy, fertile body for the two kids I had, but then also to keep that level of ojas strength and vitality later on for the later years as well.

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah, and it really does make a difference. And you do have a glow, so you, you look younger than your age. We talked about that. You really do. Like, it... And I think that that's what it is. You're literally preserving. Like, the number means nothing. Like, I just like, you know, yeah, there's like a range and all of that stuff.

  You could also bring back your biological age. You could bring it back. You can actually, like, make yourself younger. And, um, there's so many [00:18:00] things that you can do. That's the empowering aspect of it, which I love. Um, let's talk about doshas. What are doshas and, and how, why is it important for people to understand their own dosha?

  Dr. Shivani Gupta: For sure. I mean, this is a, one of the most central concepts in Ayurveda. We teach that each and every one of us has our own individual mind-body type, and that type is unique to you. It was decided at birth. We call that your prakruti, like the way you were born, which is your template, your blueprint for life.

  And the doshas are based on the five elements of nature, so air, ether, fire, water, and earth. And I know in Chinese medicine you have your own five elements, and so it's beautiful that both sciences understand that the elements are the key and have different languaging around how to support people in that way.

  And so I took the doshas and thought, "Okay, I'm gonna teach you guys agni, ama, ojas," like [00:19:00] there's 500 Sanskrit words and they have such profound meanings. Can I simplify any? So I renamed dosha's elemental design, and so your elemental design is your makeup of those elements in the proportion that you are.

  And so there's three body types, vata, pitta, and kapha. Here in the West, we pronounce them vata, pitta, and kapha. And vata is air and ether. So a vata person is gonna have this tendency physically to be taller and shorter than anyone in their demographic. So think tall and lanky, think small and petite.

  This kind of person is made up of the elements of air, so it could be a beautiful breeze that's just always in motion in a beautiful way, or could be something like a tornado if really out of balance. And so keeping that in mind, it could also be a ceiling fan, could be something that's in motion constantly and consistently, but never knows how to stop.

  And so when you take that understanding of air, ether, and you move it into [00:20:00] the person, what that means is someone who's always in motion. Their energy's always in motion. Every movement in the body is guided by this vata energy. And so this is someone who probably can't take a job where they have to sit still.

  Typically, it's your endurance athlete, your marathon runner. This is someone who has a tendency towards constipation 'cause of dryness in their system, tendency towards anxiety, tendency towards insomnia, poor, disturbed, light sleep. This is someone who can usually go all day long surviving on like coffee, a green juice, some celery, and then they get to dinner and they're

  Michelle Oravitz: Which is like the worst thing for vata, 'cause the greens make it colder. Like, it's like, uh... They always eat salads. It's really the raw,

  Dr. Shivani Gupta: They're like, "Let me eat raw, cold. everything. Let me never ground my energy, never do warm or heating." So it's funny how our tendencies can be so exacerbating and throw us further out of

  Michelle Oravitz: Like the pitta with the fire, they [00:21:00] love spicy. Like...

  Dr. Shivani Gupta: Yep.

  I know. I'm, I'm addicted to chilies. It's, it's rid- ridiculous kind of how we do the thing that imbalances us most and don't catch it.

  And so the homework for that Vata crew is let's eat food, people. Let's eat three times a day. I know you like to be those big intermittent fasters. Let's just try our Ayurveda way for once, and you get to see how you feel. And so I bring a lot of healthy fat, those fall foods you mentioned. So seasonality is such an important piece of understanding your constitution, when your season's gonna be the most exacerbated or out of balance, and really digging in more in that season to balance yourself.

  So fall season is when Vata gets out of balance. And what does the universe give us? Fall foods, squash, nutmeg, cinnamon, like the most herbing, the most grounding spices and herbs and drinks and lattes, pumpkin, all happens in the season when you need it most. And so it's really about tuning in and awareness so that you do [00:22:00] those things that make you feel the most nourished.

  Then you have Pitta. Pitta people are all fire. It's fire with some water. And so what that means is you could be a beautiful, healthy campfire that processes, digests, and assimilates, or you could be like a forest fire or a volcano that erupts. And so when you take that analogy and start to understand the Pitta person, this is someone who's medium-bodied, tendency towards reddish hair, gray hair.

  I mean, reddish skin, reddish hair, or graying, early graying hair. This is someone who's usually of a muscular build. They like to move. They like to lift. They're always trying to... Their personality is very much the leader. They're organized, sharp, perceptive. Um, they love to speak and teach. They're usually the ones who are very passionate and ambitious.

  And a pitta person when out of balance is kind of like that volcano that explodes. They burn out, explode. People closest to them are [00:23:00] collateral damage. They're frustrated, they're angry, they get bitter. And so pitta people, I teach them, treat yourself like a nuclear reactor. Stay calm, stay cool. Pittas love hot, oily, spicy food.

  They tend to love fried food. They tend to run inflamed. So when I talk about inflammation, it's usually this like pitta person or pitta imbalance where we're inflamed and there's heartburn and inflammation going on in the system. And the homework is those cool, calming foods. So summer season is when pittas get most out of balance, and everything nature gives us in summertime is usually cooling and calming.

  It's part of why I teach time as me time. I am a pitta, and so I need a couple reminders in my day, calm down. What are we doing to stay dis- what are we doing to stay cool, calm, and collected instead of just being on a racetrack and trying to go 200 miles an hour and never stopping on that track? And then finally, the third body type is called kapha, [00:24:00] and a kapha person is Earth. and water.

  So this is someone who's so earthy and grounded. This is someone who is bigger boned, stronger, round face, round eyes, oily curly hair, oilier skin. This is someone who is able to lift heavier. Like they're just a stronger constitution. It could feel like a very mountain energy in someone or a very caretaker loving energy, grandma energy that feeds and loves everyone.

  It's that friend who, who's in the group who is always worried about everyone else and not themselves, who, who just wants to care for everybody. And so kapha people can struggle with a sluggish metabolism, struggle with depression or feeling low, being really resistant to change. Kapha people get the most, most phenomenal sleep.

  They get this like deep slumber. Kaphas can sleep for eight to 10 hours and have a really hard time waking up in the morning. And once they finish their day and they sit down [00:25:00] If that's where the day ends, you typically cannot get the kapha off the couch. And it's about a kapha person understanding, this is my nature.

  Just 'cause modern life says we need side hustles and weekend hustles and 18 hustles, doesn't mean that that's everyone's type. And so, so much of what I teach my kapha clients is honoring thyself, know your nature. And so homework for kapha is exercise and move in the morning to get your energy up and moving, and then also eating warm, cooked foods, not the raw, cold foods, avoiding dairy 'cause it can cause that congestion, that water element in the system.

  And so once you understand your body constitution, each of us is made up of all three. Usually we have a primary and a secondary. Some of us are tridoshic or balanced in all three. But starting to understand your primary and secondary is so powerful because then you can start really understanding how to shift your lifestyle habits and calibrating into what we call the most sattvic [00:26:00] aspect of your constitution.

  So, for example, I'm a pitta-kapha, and in pitta, I have a big tendency to, to go so far so fast and burn myself out completely. And so I-- my lesson in life is how to, like, not do that. Sometimes I still do it. And then kapha, it's like what is the sattvic aspect of it? The, the most beautiful, pure aspect of that constitution is just wanting to love and serve and take care of everybody.

  And so staying in that balanced version of those two constitutions allows you to stay healthy and vibrant and supported and feel aligned. And then if we drop down into kind of the heavier aspects or the, the more challenging aspects of those, then we might not feel like our best self. So there's a lot there, but that's kind of like a highlight of the constitutions.

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah, it's definitely so fascinating, and it's really funny 'cause I'm like, I, I think I'm all three. I mean, I know that, um, I used to be more [00:27:00] vata kapha. Mm-hmm. I feel more fire. Maybe it's just over time, but it's interesting how you can ebb and flow throughout your life.

  Dr. Shivani Gupta: Yeah.

  You can, and you can have different, um, life events that happen. When I had kids, that really slowed down my life and I became more kapha. If you're ever in a caretaker mode, you become more kapha. And so It's just interesting, you're right, that how we ebb and flow through those transition points and then want to come back to what feels like home in our bodies.

  And so I have that quiz, the Elemental Design quiz, on my website at drshivani.com. And when people take it, sometimes they email me back and they're like, "How did you know that about me? How did you know I, like, love all those things and love those foods?" I'm like, "This is 5,000-year-old

  Michelle Oravitz: so amazing. It never goes out of style.

  Dr. Shivani Gupta: Yeah. It's never-- It's always there for us in such a beautiful way.

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah, it's wild because, you know, you look at like modern science and things, um, things are discovered and then like a couple years later they're like, [00:28:00] "Oh, well, they're debunked." They're like something else. It d- it doesn't really work like we thought. But Ayurveda and Chinese, they, they've been around and they still work, and the reason is, is because their anchor is nature.

  Dr. Shivani Gupta: Right, right. You can't go wrong.

  Michelle Oravitz: Really wild. Amazing. And so let's, uh, talk a little bit about turmeric because you've done a lot of research around turmeric and, um, so there's the curcumin, which is in, it, it's in turmeric and in some, some supplements have turmeric and some, I guess, extract the curcumin. Can you break it down like what, what it is, what it does,

  Dr. Shivani Gupta: For

  Michelle Oravitz: what are some of the issues that supplement companies have when it comes to absorption?

  Dr. Shivani Gupta: Absolutely. So I was doing my master's in Ayurvedic sciences, and I was in this herbology class, and the professor started explaining the benefits [00:29:00] of all the super spices, ashwagandha, brahmi, shatavari, uh, cinnamon, cumin, coriander. I mean, we have this treasure chest of herbs in Ayurveda, and I know in Chinese medicine as well, ginger.

  I mean, ginger's a powerhouse. We should all be consuming ginger in some form most of the year. Not every day, but most of the year. It's, it's so beneficial. Maybe not in your hottest season, but it's just so beautiful. So when I learned about turmeric, I thought, you know, I grew up watching my entire family suffer with diabetes, watching the last 20 years of everyone's life spent in and out of hospitals trying to save their lives.

  Why is it that as a society we aren't using turmeric so much earlier in the game as a preventive? Because turmeric is a powerful antioxidant, anti-inflammatory. It's one of the most potent natural inflam- anti-inflammatories we have. It's antiviral, antibacterial, antifungal, and it functions like this [00:30:00] ultimate janitor.

  It goes into our body and cleans house on everything that doesn't belong there. Zombie cells, malignant cells, senescent cells, all the things causing oxidation in the first place. It gets rid of the bad bacteria causing dysbiosis in our gut. But then it also does the good side. It's healing our gut from leaky gut.

  It's making sure it leaves all the good stuff in place. It supports when we're having insulin sensitivity, it supports those pathways to support us. We have less insulin resistance, and the body's functioning better. Inflammation also means when we're holding onto excess weight in the body, that excess weight causes more inflammation.

  It puts us in a catch-22 cycle, and turmeric goes in there and heals with that as well. So there's so much to it in terms of the benefits of turmeric. I truly believe we should all be taking turmeric almost every day. We're supposed to cycle with turmeric as well. It is a warming spice, but it's so potent in healing as a natural tool.[00:31:00]

  What most people don't know is out of the entire turmeric plant, only 3% to 5% of it is the curcuminoids, and we know the curcuminoids are the most effective part at helping us reduce inflammation. And so most people tell me, "I'm juicing my turmeric. I buy it fresh." And I'm like, "That is great. If you have no big health issues, go for it."

  It's very warming in that form. For me, it burns. I can't take turmeric ginger shots. It hurts too much. But it is gonna give you the natural benefits. We know raw forms of most plants is beneficial. But in ancient Ayurveda, we always took the raw plant and dried it into the spice. And so when you take that dry spice of turmeric, that's your kitchen culinary turmeric, every Indian household uses it.

  India is the largest consumer of turmeric as a powder. We use it in our cooking, and it is beneficial. As Indians, we're using it in everything. It's going in every lentil, every bean, every dish. So we have this cumulative effect of using it, and we're also using it with [00:32:00] black pepper or a healthy fat, which increases the absorption.

  So black pepper increases that absorption 2,000%. The healthy fat is gonna help it go into the body and cross the blood-brain barrier, so that has its own benefits. But still, kitchen turmeric, the culinary spice sprinkled on your chicken, is not enough to give you enough of that 3% to 5% to really make a difference.

  And we kicked off talking about how all of modern-day life is really inflammatory. So if we wanna meet life where it is in terms of the toxin burden and the things and the foods that are affecting us, we need, in my opinion, an equal and opposing force to reduce at least that inflammation as we're gonna do all our good habits to win at inflammation as well.

  And so that's where that extract matters. Now, when it comes to supplementation, there's a lot of variation of quality in the supplement world. You can buy a $10 supplement, a $20 supplement- $300 supplement. There's quite a range. [00:33:00] And so there's a group of supplements built for integrative practitioners and functional medicine doctors, and that world is full of very potent supplements, and that's where I play.

  So once I finished my PhD, everyone was like, "Well, if you're gonna tell us all to take turmeric all day, you should make your own." And I thought, "You guys are nuts. That's insane." But I found this incredible factory, this incredible team, and I said, "Look, I would be interested in making my own turmeric, but only if it was better than anything else on the market, and we could turn around and go to every doctor's office and tell them, 'Look, every time you tell someone they have pain or chronic joint pain or any of these issues, I want every doctor to say you can take turmeric with that.'"

  Because I was a patient, and when I would go in, they'd say, "You can take NSAIDs 24/7 for 10 days, and you'll be healed." And what I learned was you didn't heal me. You just got rid of my pain For that time period, and I had stomach aches after. And so my formula that I built, I built two formulations. One is [00:34:00] a pure Ayurvedic formula, and one follows the modern science.

  That combo was put into hundreds and hundreds of doctors' offices, and they all said, "This is incredible. Like, I cannot believe what my patients are telling me. This is nuts, but this is great." So that's been what I've been doing for 11 years now, is sharing the power of turmeric. And then now I share it online 'cause everyone's like, "Well, I want the turmeric too.

  Why is it only in doctor's offices?"

  Michelle Oravitz: Amazing. Um, as far as fertility goes, I mean, there can be a lot of benefits. Um, the one thing that I have heard is, uh, prior to IVF or transfers and a high dose, it can thin the uterine lining.

  Dr. Shivani Gupta: Yes,

  yes. Be careful. When we're talk... Yeah. When we're talking about IVF, we do Have to think about turmeric as it's a very direct and strong turmeric. Yeah. Yeah. It's a very powerful herb. So I think of it more as if [00:35:00] we're talking about endometriosis, PCOS, recurrent in, you know, implantation failures, we know inflammation can be pa- playing a role.

  We know it's a core mechanism in why we struggle in some of those issues, and we know that? curcumin's gonna inhibit NF-kappaB, COX-2. It's gonna reduce, you know, so many of the inflammatory factors. It really impacts over 30 different inflammatory factors, and so it can really play a role there. So with endometriosis specifically, we have a lot of scientific studies, PCOS, implantation as well.

  We know that if we are anti-inflammatory beforehand, it can really support us. But I do agree with you. When we're in the phase, we should come off of curcumin. Curcumin is a vasodilator. It will thin the blood, and we don't wanna have it playing a role in that moment when we're, we're really in the, the fire of it all.

  Michelle Oravitz: Yes. So important. And, um, I really want people to hear this because [00:36:00] just because it is something that we would wanna avoid around the time doesn't mean it should be something that we totally cancel out because it has tremendous benefits and actually can really make this, um, improve chances of, of success.

  Now, um, this is the same for any herb. It's the same for any kind of medication. It's important to balance it out, and this is why it's so important to work with people because... that know what they're doing, practitioners, because, um, there are different phases that we go through life and there's different preparation phases we should be considering, and also some things that are good for one phase are not good for another.

  So that's why any kind of herbal supplement, all of these things, um, people like you and I, we learn about how to use them, which is why, again, it's so important to really understand because it has a time and a season [00:37:00] just like anything.

  Dr. Shivani Gupta: Right. And that's the thing is so many of us are taking supplements, and when we go to a practitioner, we might pick up the first protocol. Then we go to the next practitioner, we pick up another one, another one. Yeah. And what I, what I'm seeing is a lot of doctors will call me and they're like, "This patient's taking 28 supplements.

  There's no way this is okay for them. What do I do? I wanna take them off of everything." And I always say, "No, there's, there's different categories here." We have our foundational stack of what we need to be taking based on our blood work, basing-- based on modern-day life not giving us the micronutrients and minerals we need.

  You can't take away people's foundation stacks just 'cause they're on too many things. But I think it is worth looking at what season are you in and what else do you need? Is it your longevity stack you need to take a pause on? Is it a treatment stack that needs to shift based on the phase of treatment?

  So what you're talking about is when someone's really in that moment of pursuing IVF, it might be six [00:38:00] weeks, eight weeks, we need to come off of turmeric, wait, and then bring it back in based on where we're at. And so really that phasing of supplementation does need to be done with a practitioner, so the practitioner can guide that care and not have us just continually take everything we've ever taken forever.

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah, for sure. as far as the book, "The Inflammation Code," what are some of the tools that you take the reader through in order to help?

  You had mentioned, um, a little bit of an overview in the beginning, but anything that you, uh... Because I'm sure that as you wrote the book, you did a lot of research and you probably learned a lot, 'cause I know that writing a book, the whole process of it, you're learning so much as you're writing. You have an idea of what you wanna talk about, but then you do research and so many things come up, and some of the things are really fascinating.

  Was there anything that specifically for you surprised you as you were writing?

  Dr. Shivani Gupta: You know, circadian [00:39:00] rhythm is an idea that came from Ayurveda, and in this modern day moment, we're really talking about circadian clock and how we should live on our circadian clock in a very surface level way. So right now we're talking about blue light, and blue light's bad, and don't have blue light on after 8:00 or 9:00 PM, and blue light blocking glasses, and blue light blocking screens, and it, it's just interesting to watch the, the modern, very reductionist approach to doing things.

  But when I, I dove into the science, it talked about really what I see as in the future being circadian medicine that will be practiced across all of Western medicine, and at some beautiful wisdom level, it's already being practiced and has always been practiced in the ancient wisdoms. So it was interesting to see how much science is already being found on all of our cells have circadian clock genes in them.

  And if the body [00:40:00] understands timing that well, no wonder as he- as human beings, we're meant to live on our circadian clock, and when we defy it, we're kind of eroding our health. And ancient Ayurveda said we must sleep from 10:00 to 2:00 on that circadian clock during that pitta time of day. That's a time window.

  And it taught that these fires and this body really clears out the lymphatic system and the inflammation at that time. And I was taught that. I already, I already knew that, and I live by it. I don't sleep at 10:00 all the time, but maybe 10:30 is my latest. But the fact that we have these circadian genes that are kind of begging for us to understand How much living in nature's rhythm is the most important thing.

  And we think in modern day life, I don't have time. I've gotta do 100 things 'cause I've gotta finish by 9:00, and I ebb and flow with that. So last year when I was in book launch mode, I [00:41:00] broke that tenet all day. I worked till 10:00 o'clock, then I'd run to take a shower and try to sleep. My sleep quality was all over the place, and I definitely burnt out after that experience.

  Oh Yeah.

  I could feel the difference.

  'cause every morning I'd wake up tired. And now I'm back to honoring everything in my book. I'm just living according to exactly what I teach, and my body wakes up happy, lighter, joyful, less aches and pains. My mind is clear. I'm, I'm just so much more pure in my heart and mind because I'm in this alignment.

  And it's such a testament to modern science is gonna call it circadian genes and the clock genes and, and call it so many scientific names. But Ayurveda said alignment comes from living in rhythm with nature. The more you can do it, the better you'll feel. So the more I do my circadian walks, is what I call it, but my morning walk, my evening walk, my midday walk, the [00:42:00] more I put myself in nature and let it heal all things, the better I feel.

  So, so I love both, both ways of saying it

  Sometimes we need the scientific way to kind of ground into ourselves the why, but then once we put it into the practice, we get to feel not just the physical benefits, the mental, the emotional, the spiritual, the, the things that you and I as ancient wisdom practitioners want for people, but it kind of takes them going deeper and deeper into the more subtle for them to realize the power of that coherence and alignment.

  Michelle Oravitz: I love that. That is so great. So for people listening and fascinated and wanna learn more about you and about your supplements and about your book, how can they find you?

  Dr. Shivani Gupta: For sure. So my website is my name, drshivani.com, S-H-I-V-A-N-I. I'm on Instagram as [00:43:00] @dr.shivanigupta, so I love playing on Instagram if you?

  wanna come DM me and hang out. And on my website, you'll find links to "The Inflammation Code," my book. My podcast is called "The Inflammation Code" as well. And then my supplements and Ayurvedic formulas are at fusionaryformulas.com, and we made a special code, wholesomefertility.

  We'll give everyone 15% off.

  Michelle Oravitz: Oh, amazing. And I'll have all of this information in the episode notes if you guys wanna find it. Um, Dr. Shivani, I really enjoy talking to you. I enjoyed it last time. I enjoy it this time. Every time I see you, it's always a blast. And, um, for sure we have to get together 'cause we are neighbors. And thank you so much for coming on.

  This was such a great episode.

  Dr. Shivani Gupta: Awesome. Thank you for having me

  [00:44:00]

Ep 389 How to Improve Egg Quality in 90 Days (Science Meets Ancient Wisdom)

The egg that will ovulate three months from now is starting to mature right now. In this solo episode, Michelle dives into one of the most hopeful conversations in fertility: the 90 day window of egg development. Both ancient wisdom and modern science agree that what you do during this window can directly influence the quality of the egg that eventually releases.

Michelle walks you through what’s actually happening inside your ovaries during those three months, bridges the modern research on mitochondria with the Chinese medicine concepts of Jing and Blood, and shares the five practical pillars she uses with her patients to support egg quality from the inside out.

Whether you’re trying to conceive naturally, preparing for IVF, or thinking about your fertility for the future, this episode is a foundational one. You have far more influence over your fertility than you’ve ever been told, and this episode shows you exactly how to work with your body during the window that matters most.

Key Takeaways:

• Egg development spans roughly a 90 day window, and the environment of your body during those three months directly shapes the quality of the egg that ovulates.
• Eggs are the most mitochondria-rich cells in the body, which is why mitochondrial health is the foundation of egg quality.
• The Chinese medicine concepts of Jing (essence) and Blood are describing the same phenomenon modern research calls mitochondrial health and ovarian blood flow.
• Pillar 1 — Nourish with real food: prioritize protein, healthy fats, antioxidant-rich vegetables, iron-rich foods, and warming cooked meals.
• Pillar 2 — Protect your mitochondria: CoQ10 (ideally Ubiquinol), omega 3s, consistent 7 to 9 hours of sleep, and personalized supplementation under a practitioner’s guidance.
• Pillar 3 — Support blood flow: acupuncture, gentle movement, abdominal massage (like Mayan or Arvigo), warmth over the lower belly and back, and no ice water around your cycle.

• Pillar 4 — Regulate your nervous system: extended exhale breath work, time in nature, reduced screen time, pockets of silence. You cannot out-supplement a dysregulated nervous system.
• Pillar 5 — Reduce your toxic load: swap plastic for glass, upgrade skincare and cleaning products, eat organic from the dirty dozen, filter water, and skip handling receipts.
• Your body is asking for partnership, not perfection. One day does not make or break an egg; a pattern of loving care over 90 days is what shapes the environment.

Disclaimer: The information shared on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider before making any changes to your health or fertility care.

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• Transcript

  Michelle Oravitz (00:00) Welcome back to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. I'm your host, Michelle Orovitz. And today we're diving into one of the most hopeful conversations I get to have in my practice. Because here's something that both ancient wisdom and modern science agree on. You have a 90 day window where you can actually shape the quality of your eggs. That's not hype, it's biology. And once you understand what's happening inside your body during those three months, you realize you have so much more influence over your fertility than anyone has ever told you. So let's get to The egg that you will ovulate three months from now is starting to mature right now. Right now Inside your body a small group of follicles are beginning a 90 day journey toward ovulation And the environment they develop in during that window is shaping the quality of the egg that eventually releases, which means if you give your body even a little bit of intentional care over the next three months, you can actually support the health of that egg. I work with women who are trying to conceive naturally with women preparing for IVF. And I'll tell you, some of the most beautiful shifts I've witnessed happened when women stopped fighting against their bodies and start partnering with this 90-day window. So here's what we're going to walk through today. First, I'll explain what's actually happening inside your ovaries during those 90 days, because most of us were never taught this. And once you understand it, everything else makes sense. Then I'll bridge the modern research on mitochondria with the ancient Chinese medicine concepts of Jing and blood. These two worlds are describing the same thing in different languages. And I love showing that to people. And then I'll give you five practical pillars you can start working with today. Whether you're trying naturally, preparing for IVF, or just thinking about fertility down the road, this is foundational. So let me start with what's actually happening in your ovaries because again, most of us were never taught this in school it's kind of wild when you hear it. Your ovaries contain what are called primordial follicles. These are tiny resting excels that have been sitting quietly in your ovaries since before you were born. were literally born with all of them. Every single month, a small group of follicles get recruited to start developing. In reproductive biology, we call this folliculogenesis. It's the waking up of the eggs that will potentially ovulate in the coming months. And from the moment a follicle starts developing, approximately 90 days for that egg to reach the point where it can actually be ovulated. That's a big deal. Research suggests that the most sensitive window of development is the final 90 to 100 days, though earlier stages matter too. And during those 90 days, that egg is not just sitting there waiting, it's going through massive change. It's building its cellular machinery. It's developing mitochondria, which are the energy powerhouses of the cell. It's essentially getting ready to do one of the most extraordinary things a cell can do, which is support the beginning of new life. And here's the part that I really want you to hear. That egg is deeply affected by the environment it's developing in. The blood flow to the ovaries, the nutrients in your bloodstream, the hormones circulating through you, level of inflammation in your tissues, your sleep, your stress, everything in your body is feeding into the quality of that egg. This is exactly why the fertility specialist who are really paying attention will tell you to start preparing three months before you tried to conceive or three months before an IVF cycle because that window actually matches your biology. Okay, let me go a little bit deeper into the science because once you get this, else I'm going to say will make more sense. Eggs are actually the most mitochondria rich cells in the entire human body. A single mature egg contains hundreds of thousands of mitochondria. Most cells in your body may contain a few hundred to maybe a few thousand Eggs have hundreds of thousands. And the reason is because the egg is carrying the energy supply for the very beginning of embryonic life. After fertilization, the embryo depends entirely on the mitochondria that came from the egg. So in a very real way, the health of your mitochondria is the foundation of your future embryo's energy. Now here's where it gets important. Mitochondria can get damaged by something called oxidative stress. This is what happens when you have too many free radicals in the body and not enough antioxidants to balance them out. and oxidative stress in the ovaries is directly linked to lower egg quality. It tends to go up with age and with chronic inflammation and environmental toxins and with long-term stress as well, which is a lot to hold, I know, But here's the good news. this is really the whole point of this conversation. Mitochondrial health can be supported with the right nutrients, with sleep, with movement, with reducing your toxic load. You have real tools I'm going to get into them in a minute. Now I want to bring in the Chinese medicine lens because this is where it gets really beautiful for me. ancient system describes the same exact phenomenon we just talked about, just in a different language. In Chinese medicine, the foundation of your fertility is something called Jing. Jing is usually translated as essence. the deep reserve vitality you inherited from your parents and it's the substance your reproductive potential is built from. It governs growth, it governs development, and it governs the quality of your reproductive material. Jing is considered it's also something you can either deplete or preserve. Overwork depletes it. Chronic stress depletes it. Not enough sleep depletes it. Constant stimulation depletes it. Rest, nourishment, stillness, warmth, these preserve and support it. And alongside Jing, Chinese medicine really emphasizes blood, not just blood in Western medicine sense, but blood as a substance that nourishes all of your organs, including your ovaries and your uterus. When your blood is strong and abundant, your reproductive tissues are well fed. When your blood is weak or deficient, your ovaries aren't getting what they need. So here's what I love. When you read the ancient Chinese texts on fertility, they talk about nourishing jing and building blood. When you read modern fertility research, they talk about mitochondrial health and ovarian flow. These are the same ideas. One is the body's deep essence. The other is cellular energy. They're both describing the quality of your reproductive material. The ancients understood through observation and lineage what modern science is now confirming with microscopes and metabolic studies. The 90-day window isn't a new idea. The Chinese have been working with this timeline for centuries. Okay, so now let me get practical. These are the five pillars I use with my patients to support egg quality during a 90 day window. This isn't a quick fix. It's a way of living into your fertility for three months that matters most. Pillar one, nourish with real food. I'm not going to give you a complicated diet, but I will say this. Prioritize protein at every meal because protein is what your body uses include healthy fats from wild fish, olive oil, avocado, and nuts because your hormones are literally built from fat. Lean into leafy greens and colorful vegetables because they carry antioxidants that protect your eggs from oxidative stress. Including iron rich foods like grass fed red meat, lentils, beets, Iron is essential for building blood. And please eat warming cooked foods more than raw, especially if you tend to run cold. In Chinese medicine, we say the uterus likes warmth. That is not a metaphor. It's a real thing. And stay away from extremes, extreme dieting, extreme fasting, highly processed foods. They all disrupt the hormonal environment that your eggs depend Pillar two, protect your mitochondria. CoQ10 is probably the most well-researched supplements for egg quality. Multiple studies have shown it supports mitochondrial function in the eggs. Ubiquinol is a more bioavailable form of CoQ10. Now, I always recommend working with a practitioner on dosing, but about 200 to 600 milligrams a day is what is commonly used in fertility protocols. But again, always talk to your doctor. before starting anything. Other helpful mitochondrial supporters include omega-3 fatty acids, NAC, alpha-lipoic acid, vitamin E. But please, please don't start taking everything. These really do need be to you and your situation. So again, speak to your doctor before starting any supplements. And honestly, sleep is mitochondrial work, 7-9 hours in a dark room with consistent timing will do more for your egg quality than most supplements on the shelf. Pillar 3. Support blood flow. Your eggs cannot thrive without good circulation to your reproductive organs. Without blood flow, they don't get the nutrients or oxygen that they need. Acupuncture has been shown to improve blood flow to the reproductive organs. Gentle movements like walking, yoga, swimming, all support circulation. Also self-abdominal massage like Mayan or Arvigo abdominal therapy works amazing. What I want you to avoid is over-exercising during this window. High intensity training can actually pull blood flow away from reproduction and warmth really does matter. Keep your lower belly and your lower back warm, especially during your luteal phase and your period. oil packs on the lower abdomen are a beautiful traditional practice with a long lineage and definitely, definitely if you are trying to conceive, avoid the luteal phase. So if you want to do castor oil packs and you're actively trying to conceive, the best time to do this is after the bleed and right before ovulation. And skip ice water, especially around your cycle. I know it's not a trendy thing to say, but your body will thank you. Pillar four, regulate your nervous system. I cannot say this enough. Your eggs are developing inside a body that's either in a state of safety or a state of When your body feels safe, it prioritizes reproduction and growth. When your body is in a sustained threat state, it suppresses reproduction. This isn't psychological, it's physiological. So practices that really help during this window are things like breath work, especially with long extended exhale, gentle movements, time in nature, reducing screen time, especially first thing in the morning, especially the news. and right before bed. finding pockets of silence throughout the day. And if you're carrying stored stress or trauma, working with a practitioner on that. This pillar is often the most important and it's the one most people skip. If you do all the food and all the supplements but you stay in chronic fight or flight, you're swimming upstream, You cannot out supplement a dysregulated nervous system. Pillar five, reduce your toxic load. Endocrine disrupting chemicals are everywhere in modern life. They're in plastic containers, conventional personal care products, pesticides on your food, certain cleaning products, and some of them specifically affect your ovaries. You don't have to do this perfectly because it literally is impossible. But during a 90 day window, it's worth making some intentional shifts. Switch from plastic to glass storage, upgrade your skincare to clean products, eat organic whenever you can, especially for the produce with the highest pesticide load. So look for the dirty dozen and avoid those. filter your water and skip handling receipts at the register because they do contain little consistent shifts really do add up. Before you go and try to do all this perfectly, I do want to say something really important. Please hear me on this. The point of this window is not to add more pressure to your already full plate. If you approach these 90 days with rigid perfectionism and anxiety, you're actually working against yourself. Your nervous system is reading your effort as a form of and your body will respond accordingly. What we're really going for is presence, nourishment, Showing up for your body the way you would for someone you love deeply. Not with punishment, not with shame, but with care. Some days you'll do all of these things and it'll feel so aligned. Other days, you'll eat pizza and stay up too late watching a show. And that is also completely okay. One day doesn't make or break an egg. A pattern of loving care over 90 days is what shapes the environment. Your body isn't asking for perfection. It's asking for partnership. Okay, let me leave you with a practical way to begin. I actually created something called the fertility detox. It's a free ebook that walks you through how to reduce your toxic load in a way that's realistic and sustainable. It's one of the clearest starting points for this work. And you can grab it at michelleorbits.com forward slash fertility dash detox. If you want to go deeper with me over time, You can also look at the Wholesome Fertility Journey, and that is where you can find all of my memberships. meant to support you exactly where you are. calls with me. You'll find all of the information if you go to www.michellorbits.com forward slash the dash wholesome dash fertility Journey. And you can find all of the information in the episode If this episode resonated with you, would so appreciate it if you took a moment to leave a review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. Reviews are what helps the show reach the women who need to hear these conversations. if you haven't subscribed yet, go ahead and hit follow so you don't miss an episode. Remember that the egg that matters most for you right now is developing this very moment. You have 90 days to shape its environment and you have more influence over this than you have ever been told. Thank you so much for being here. and I'll see you next time.

Ep 388 Low AMH: What It Actually Means (And What It Doesn’t)

If you’ve recently received a low AMH result and feel like your body has already betrayed you, this episode is for you. In this solo episode, Michelle walks you through what AMH actually measures, what it cannot tell you, and why so many women with low numbers still go on to conceive, some with help and some without.

You’ll learn the critical difference between egg quantity and egg quality, what a low AMH does not mean, which factors can actually influence your number, and what to do if your results came back lower than you hoped. Michelle blends holistic and medical perspectives to help you move out of panic and into partnership with your body.

If you’ve been told your AMH is too low, or if fear is making big decisions for you right now, this episode will help you come back to yourself, understand your body more deeply, and reclaim your sense of possibility.

Key Takeaways:

• AMH is a proxy measurement for ovarian reserve (egg quantity), not a predictor of natural conception or egg quality.
• Egg quantity and egg quality are two different things. A low AMH does not mean your eggs are not healthy.
• A low AMH is not a diagnosis of infertility, early menopause, or a failed future. It is one data point among many.
• Several factors can influence your AMH, including vitamin D status, thyroid function, autoimmunity, chronic stress, environmental toxins, and hormonal contraception.
• Egg quality is influenceable during a 90 day window through nourishment, mitochondrial support (like CoQ10), sleep, blood flow, and nervous system care.
• Fear makes poor long term decisions. Before committing to an aggressive treatment plan, pause, breathe, and look at the full picture of your health.
• You are not broken. A lower number on a lab report is not a verdict on your worth as a woman or your potential as a mother.

Disclaimer: The information shared on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider before making any changes to your health or fertility care.

Free chapter of The Way of Fertility (book)https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

Top 10 Fertility Boosting Tips Ebook:https://www.michelleoravitz.com/mytop10fertilityboostingtips

Ready to discover what your body needs most on your fertility journey?
Take the personalized quiz inside The Wholesome Fertility Journey and get tailored resources to meet you exactly where you are:

https://www.michelleoravitz.com/the-wholesome-fertility-journey

For more about my work and offerings, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Curious about ancient wisdom for fertility? Grab my book The Way of Fertility:
https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

Join the Wholesome Fertility Facebook Group for free resources & community support:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Connect with me on social:
Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility
Facebook: The Wholesome Lotus

Disclaimer: Some of the links shared are affiliates but this is at no cost to you and can even get you discounted prices!

• Transcript

  Michelle Oravitz (00:00) Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. And today we're talking about something that brings so many women to my often in a state of complete panic, a low AMH result. And if that's you, If you've been holding a number in your hand and feeling like your body has already betrayed you, this episode is for me to you. I want to walk you through what AMH actually measures and what it does and not measures and why so many women with low numbers go on to conceive, some with help and some without. So let's get started. If you just got your AMH results back your number was lower than you hoped? I want you to pause whatever you're doing and stay with me for the next few what you're about to read online, what you might have already been told and what you're feeling right now, do not tell the full story of your fertility. Today, we're going to talk about what AMH actually means and what it cannot tell you and what you can do if your number came back low, Whether you're trying naturally or preparing for IVF, this matters. I've spent years walking women the exact moment you may be in right now. The moment of getting a number back and wondering if it means your story is over. It does not, and let me explain. I will cover five things. What AMH actually is and what it measures, the difference between egg quantity and egg quality, which is the most important distinction most women never hear, what a low AMH does not mean, and the factors that can influence your number, some of which are reversible, and what to actually do if your number came back low, both from a holistic lens and a medical one. If you stay with me to the end, I will also share something you can take home with you to start supporting your body today. So AMH stands for anti-malarion hormone. It's a hormone produced by the small follicles in your ovaries, the ones that are in the early stages of When your doctor measures AMH in a blood test, what they're essentially doing is getting a snapshot of how many resting follicles you is what is important to understand. AMH is a proxy. It is an estimate. It gives your doctor a rough sense of your ovarian reserve, which is the pool of eggs you have left. Ovarian reserve is a quantity measurement. It tells you approximately how many eggs you have. It doesn't tell you how the quality of those eggs are. It doesn't tell you if you can conceive. It doesn't tell you whether your cycles are regular. It doesn't tell you anything about your hormone balance, your ablation, your fallopian tubes, your uterine lining, or your partner's sperm health. In other words, AMH is one piece of a much larger puzzle. The reason AMH gets so much attention is because it's useful for one specific thing. It helps fertility specialists predict how many eggs you might retrieve during an IVF cycle. That is what it is primarily designed to do. If you're planning IVF, it helps your doctor know how to dose your medications. But here's the part so many women never hear. AMH has not been reliably shown to predict your chance of natural conception. Let me say that again. Your AMH level does not tell you whether you can get pregnant naturally. Research has shown this clearly. Women with low AMH can and do conceive, and I've seen this in my own as long as they're still ovulating. This is one of those moments where the number gets elevated to a verdict really it's just data. Now we get into the most important distinction, quantity versus quality. Quantity is how many eggs you have. Quality is whether those eggs are chromosomally healthy and capable of becoming a thriving embryo. Here is what the research has shown, and this is really important. Egg quality and egg quantity are not the same thing. You can have high AMH and low quality eggs, or you can have a low AMH and have excellent quality eggs. The two are related, but they're not interchangeable. What actually drives egg quality is not the number on your lab report. It is the environment those eggs are developing in, the blood flow to your ovaries, the mitochondrial health of each egg cell, the nutritional status of your body, the inflammatory load that your body's experiencing, the hormonal balance, the nervous system state, And here's the hopeful part. Quality is Influensible. The 90 days before an egg is ovulated is the window of development during which the environment of your body directly affects the egg's health. I will talk more about that in future episodes, but I want you to hear this now. If you've been told your AMH is low, that does not tell you anything about the quality of the eggs you have. Not one thing. A 38-year-old woman with low AMH still has eggs, and the eggs she has are developing right now. The question is how well are they being nourished? Let me take a few minutes and name what low AMH does not mean. Because I know that if you're watching this, you may have already gone to some dark places with a number. and I want to help bring you back. A low AMH does not mean you're infertile. It means your ovarian reserve is lower than average for your age, which is a different thing entirely. A low AMH does not mean you cannot conceive naturally. as long as you're ovulating regularly. You are capable of getting pregnant. A low AMH does not mean you are going into early menopause. It can be one indicator that is the window is shorter, but it's not a diagnosis of imminent menopause by itself. A low AMH does not mean IVF will fail. It may mean fewer eggs are retrieved per cycle, but egg quality matters more than quantity. And some women with low AMH have excellent IVF outcomes. A low amh does not mean you're broken. This may be the most important one. You are not broken. Your body is not feeling you. A lower number on a blood moral verdict on the worth you have as a woman or potential mother. I've watched so many women collapse under the weight of this number, not because the number itself determined their outcome, but because the way it was delivered left them feeling hopeless. If that is where you are right now, please know that the hopelessness is not evidence. It's a state and state shift. especially when you learn empowering information. Now let's ask about the factors that can influence your AMH number, this is where a lot of women are is the biggest factor. AMH naturally declines with age. That is expected, but there are other variables too. Vitamin D status. Research has consistently shown a relationship between low vitamin D and a lower AMH. If you live in a place with limited sun exposure or you've been indoors for most of the last few years, your vitamin D may be lower than you realize. This is correctable. Another reason might be thyroid function. Subclinical thyroid issues can affect ovarian function and AMH. A full thyroid panel, not just TSH, is worth asking for. So conditions like Hashimoto's and certain autoimmune issues can affect AMH levels. And then there's chronic stress and nervous system dysregulation. When your body is under a sustained state of fight or flight, resources are redirected away from reproduction. That does not just affect your period. It can affect the health of your follicular pool over time. Environmental toxins also play a role. Endocrine disruptors and personal care products, plastics, and certain foods can interfere with hormonal signaling. This is a slow process, it matters. and hormonal contraception. levels can appear artificially suppressed while on hormonal birth control. If you recently stopped, give your body at least three to six months to reestablish its own rhythm before trusting this number. medications like chemotherapy or certain medical treatments significantly impact ovarian reserve. simply have a genetic predisposition to a smaller reserve and that is not something to judge or fix, it's information. Here's what I want you to hear. If your AMH is low, it's worth asking, what else is going on in my body? Not to chase the number, but to support the whole system that the number is reflecting. So what do you do if your number came back low? First, breathe. I know it sounds simple, but your nervous system is reading this as a threat right now, think clearly in a threat. So take a slow, deep breath through your nose and an even slower Your body needs to know it's safe before it can hear anything else. Second, do not make big decisions from fear. A lot of women, when they get to this number, panic and move straight into aggressive IVF cycles. Sometimes that is the right call, but sometimes it's Give yourself a week before you commit to anything big. Third, investigate the whole picture. Get a full thyroid panel, including TSH, Free T3, Free T4, and thyroid antibodies. Check your vitamin D and check your iron as well. You'll also want to look into your inflammatory markers. Look at your cycle carefully. Are you ovulating? Is your luteal phase long enough? These are questions a good functional practitioner or integrated fertility doctor can help you answer. Fourth, focus on egg quality, not AMH. I'm going to keep coming back to this point because it matters. You cannot meaningfully change your AMH in most cases, but you can absolutely support the quality of the eggs that are still developing. That means nourishing your mitochondria. CoQ10 is one of the most studied supplements for And so is good sleep, healthy fats, and consistent blood sugar. It means supporting blood flow to the ovaries, acupuncture, movement, certain herbs and stress reduction all play a role here. caring for your nervous system. When your body feels safe, it prioritizes fertility differently. This is not woo, this is physiology. And fifth, do not do this alone, whether that means working with a fertility acupuncturist, a functional medicine doctor, a reproductive endocrinologist, or a combination of all of Find people who see you as a whole person, not a number on a chart. I want to share something with you I've had patients come to me with AMH levels in the low decimals. I'm talking really, really low. They have been told to move directly to donor eggs. They had cried in their cars in the parking lot of their fertility clinic. And some of those women after several months focused nervous system work, cycle support, nutritional changes and acupuncture went on to conceive naturally. and others through IVF. Some after being told it was statistically improbable. I'm not telling you this to promise an outcome. I cannot do that and neither can anyone else. I'm telling you this because the number you're holding in your hand does not write your story by Your story is written in what you do next and how you care for your body and whether you choose fear or whether you choose presence and whether you let one number define you or whether you meet your body with curiosity and love and ask it what is actually happening here. If this resonated with you, I want to offer you two things. The first is a free chapter of my book, The Way of Fertility. It goes much deeper into this holistic framework and the way your body actually conceives. You can download it at michelleorovitz.com forward slash the way of fertility. The link is in the description below. The second is my top 10 fertility boosting tips ebook, which gives you a practical starting place if you want to begin supporting your body today. That is at michelleorbitz.com forward slash my top 10 fertility boosting tips, also linked below. If you found this episode helpful, please share. and give us a review because it helps so many other people like you find this podcast. So thank you so much and I'll see you next time.

Ep 387 The Fertility Organ Nobody Is Testing

What if the missing piece in your fertility puzzle isn't your hormones, your eggs, or your uterus, but your gut? A growing body of peer-reviewed research is now showing that the gut microbiome directly regulates estrogen metabolism, immune function, and systemic inflammation, and when it is out of balance, all three can go sideways in ways that no standard fertility panel will ever catch.

In this episode, Michelle breaks down the science behind the gut-fertility axis, introduces the estrobolome (the community of gut bacteria responsible for metabolizing estrogen), and explores how Traditional Chinese Medicine has understood this same connection for thousands of years through the liver, the spleen, and the pattern of damp heat, and what you can actually do to start supporting your gut today.

Key Takeaways:

• Your gut microbiome directly controls how much active estrogen is circulating in your body, and dysbiosis can push it too high or too low.

• Standard hormone blood tests cannot show how your gut is metabolizing estrogen over time.

• A dysbiotic gut shifts the immune system into a reactive state that can interfere with embryo implantation.

• When the gut lining becomes permeable, inflammatory signals travel through the bloodstream and directly affect the reproductive organs.

• Healing the gut through food, movement, and nervous system regulation addresses the root cause rather than chasing symptoms.
  

Disclaimer: The information shared on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider before making any changes to your health or fertility care.

For the Be-Calmm Protocol, click here: https://www.michelleoravitz.com/be-calmm

Ready to discover what your body needs most on your fertility journey?
Take the personalized quiz inside The Wholesome Fertility Journey and get tailored resources to meet you exactly where you are:

https://www.michelleoravitz.com/the-wholesome-fertility-journey

For more about my work and offerings, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Curious about ancient wisdom for fertility? Grab my book The Way of Fertility:
https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

Join the Wholesome Fertility Facebook Group for free resources & community support:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Connect with me on social:
Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility
Facebook: The Wholesome Lotus

Disclaimer: Some of the links shared are affiliates but this is at no cost to you and can even get you discounted prices!

• Transcript

  Speaker: [00:00:00] Episode number 387 of the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. I'm your host, Michelle Orbit. Today we're going somewhere that most fertility conversations unfortunately never go, and I think it might be one of the most important places we can look at when standard answers aren't adding up.

  We're talking about the gut. A growing body of peer reviewed research is now showing that the gut microbiome directly regulates three things that are absolutely foundational to fertility, your estrogen metabolism, your immune function, and your systemic inflammation. And when the gut is out of balance, all three of those systems can go sideways in ways that no standard fertility panel will ever catch.

  We are also going to look at how traditional Chinese medicine has understood this connection through the liver, the spleen, and the concept of [00:01:00] damp heat, and what you can actually do to start supporting your gut fertility axis right now. I'm excited to dive in, so stay tuned.

  Speaker 2: Your gut microbiome is the vast ecosystem of bacteria, fungi, and other microorganisms that live in your digestive tract, somewhere around a hundred trillion of them, and far from being passive passengers. These microbes are actually involved in every system in your body. They help you digest food. And absorb nutrients.

  They produce vitamins. They train and regulate your immune system. They [00:02:00] communicate with your brain through the gut brain axis. And as research published in the journal Life in May, 2025 makes clear they play a direct and significant role in reproductive health through what scientists are now calling the gut reproductive.

  Axis. The key concept here is dysbiosis. That's the word to describe a microbiome that's out of balance. Too many harmful microbes, not enough beneficial ones, or simply a loss of diversity. And dysbiosis has now been linked to a wide range of reproductive disorders, PCOS, endometriosis, recurrent implantation failure, and unexplained infertility.

  Not as a side effect, but as a potential. Contributing cause the estrogen connection meet the estrobolome. This is the piece I find most fascinating and it's one most people have never heard of. There's a specific subset of gut bacteria [00:03:00] responsible for metabolizing estrogen. Scientists call this the estrobolome and the health of your estrobolome directly determines how much active estrogen is circulating in your body.

  Here's how it works. Your liver processes estrogen and packages it for elimination. It gets sent into the gut where it's supposed to be ext extracted, but certain gut bacteria produce an enzyme called beta glucuronide. Which essentially unwraps the packaged estrogen and releases it back into circulation in a balanced gut, this process is carefully regulated.

  The right amounts of estrogen get recycled, and the rest is eliminated. But when the gut is dysbiotic, beta glucuronidase activity can become dysregulated. Either. Too much estrogen is reactivated and recirculated, which can contribute to estrogen dominance. Heavy periods, endometriosis and [00:04:00] PCOS or not enough can be contributed to low estrogen, poor follicle development, and thin uterine lining.

  Either direction is a problem, and the same standard blood tests that tell you your estrogen level on a given day. Tells you nothing about how your gut is handling estrogen metabolism Over time. A 2024 review in frontiers and immunology put it clearly, gut microbiome dysbiosis has been directly associated with altered estrogen levels, which can disrupt normal female reproductive processes, including the menstrual cycle and fertility.

  Now, let's bring Chinese medicine into this. Because the TCM framework for estrogen metabolism is remarkably aligned with what research is describing. In TCM, the liver is responsible for the smooth flow of QI and blood and critically for detoxification and metabolism, including what we might now [00:05:00] recognize as.

  Hormone processing. The liver governs the menstrual cycle when liver cheese stagnates or liver blood is deficient. Estrogen related symptoms arise. PMS clotting, irregular cycles pain, and the kind of hormonal imbalance that affects fertility, but the liver does not work in isolation In Chinese medicine, the liver and the digestive system are in constant relationship.

  A stressed, overwhelmed liver will invade the spleen in the stomach. That's a classic TCM pattern called liver overacting on the spleen and further dysregulating the entire system. What we're now seeing in research is the psychological mechanism underneath that ancient observation. The gut microbiome and estrogen metabolism are linked.

  And in TCM, the liver and the gut have always been understood to be in direct relationship. The second major pathway between [00:06:00] your gut and your fertility is immune function. Approximately seven to 80% of your immune system lives in your gut. The gut associated lymphoid tissue, sometimes referred to as gult, is where a huge proportion of your immune cells are trained, regulated, and deployed.

  And the composition of your gut microbiome is one of the primary factors determining how your immune system behaves. A healthy, diverse microbiome promotes immune balance. It supports the production of regulatory T cells, immune cells that create. Tolerance and prevent the immune system from attacking things it should accept.

  It produces short chain fatty acids like butyrate that reduce inflammation and help maintain the integrity of the gut lining. A dysbiotic microbiome does the opposite. It increases pro-inflammatory signaling. It [00:07:00] shifts the immune system towards a more reactive, less tolerant state. Now think about what that means for fertility.

  Successful embryo implantation requires a very specific immune environment. The uterus needs to be able to tolerate a semi foreign entity, the embryo, and create conditions for it to take root. If the immune system is in a chronic state of dysregulation and inflammation, that tolerance is compromised.

  The research from 2025 found that immunological disruptions driven by gut dysbiosis have been directly linked to unexplained infertility and recurrent implantation failure. In Chinese medicine, this maps to the spleen. The spleen and TCM is the root of what we call postnatal chi. The energy produced through digestion that nourishes every other system in the body.

  The spleen governs transformation and transportation, taking in what the body needs and moving it where it needs to go. [00:08:00] It also governs the integrity of what we might now call the gut lining, and it plays a central role in the body's capacity to hold and nourish, including holding a pregnancy when the spleen is deficient through poor diet.

  Chronic worry, overwork, or the consumption of too many cold, raw, or D producing foods. Digestive function weakens cheap production declines, and the body's capacity to create a stable, receptive environment for implantation is reduced in practice. I often see spleen treat deficiency in so many of my patients.

  Fatigue. Loose stool or bloating, poor appetite, cold hands and feet, a tendency toward anxiety and overthinking. These are not separate issues in TCM. They are all part of the same pattern and they connect directly to reproductive health. The third pathway is inflammation, and this one ties everything together.

  Chronic low grade [00:09:00] inflammation is one of the most. Commonly cited factors in unexplained infertility. It affects egg quality, disrupts the uterine environment, impairs implantation, and contributes to the development of conditions like endometriosis and PCOS. And a Dysbiotic Gut is one of the primary drivers of chronic system inflammation.

  Here is one of the key mechanisms when the gut lining becomes permeable, what sometimes is called leaky gut. Bacterial components like lipopolysaccharides, LPS can enter the bloodstream. LPS is a potent trigger of the inflammatory immune response. Once it's circulating systemically, it activates inflammatory pathways throughout the body, including in the reproductive organs.

  The 2025 research review described this as microbiome translocation the process by which gut bacteria or their byproducts cross a compromised gut barrier [00:10:00] and drive systemic inflammation from the inside out. In Chinese medicine, we don't use the word inflammation, but we have language for it. We call it heat or damp heat.

  What happens when the liver and spleen are both compromised and the body begins to accumulate what it cannot properly process or eliminate? Liver cheeses, stagnation generates heat over time and spleen deficiency generates dampness. When heat and dampness combine, you get damp heat. A pattern that is in TCM associated with pain, inflammation, reproductive disorders, and a body that is struggling to function cleanly.

  What the microbiome research is describing compromised gut barrier, systemic LPS pro-inflammatory immune activation, disrupted hormonal signaling. Is the biochemical picture of what Chinese medicine has been calling damp heat and liver spleen disharmony for thousands of years. So what do you actually do with all of this?

  I wanna [00:11:00] be clear that healing the gut is not a quick fix. It is foundational work, but it is also some of the most meaningful work you can do for your fertility because you're addressing root causes rather than chasing symptoms. Here is where I focus with my patients and my online clients. Nourishing the gut lining.

  The integrity of the gut barrier is everything. Foods that support this can include bone broth, cooked vegetables, fermented foods like keifer and sauerkraut, and the adequate fiber to feed beneficial bacteria in TCM. Warm, cooked and easy to digest foods are the cornerstone of. Spleen support, raw salads, ice drinks, and heavily processed foods are considered damaging to the spleen chi.

  And from a microbiome perspective, they're often low in nutrients that support beneficial gut bacteria and gut lining integrity, support estrogen metabolism through the liver. This means reducing the burden on the liver [00:12:00] wherever possible. Limiting alcohol, minimizing processed foods and environmental toxins and eating foods that support the liver Detoxification like cruciferous vegetables, like broccoli, cauliflower, and Brussels sprouts, dark leafy greens and foods rich in B vitamins in TCM, we also support liver chief flow through movement.

  The liver loves movement. Gentle, consistent exercises. Walking, yoga, Qigong helps chi move and prevents stagnation that disrupts both hormonal processing and digestive function. Diversify your microbiome. A diverse microbiome is a resilient microbiome. This means eating a wide variety of plant foods, aim for as many different vegetables, fruit, legumes, and whole grains.

  As you can across the week, it means including prebiotic foods that feed beneficial bacteria, garlic, onions, lees [00:13:00] asparagus, oats, although you wanna make sure that you rule out sibo, which can be done with a breath test. Because some of the foods mentioned can also exacerbate that. So you might wanna look into spore based probiotic, which are safe in SIBO and can also support the microbiome.

  You also wanna address the nervous system. I keep coming back to this because it connects everything. Chronic stress directly disrupts the gut microbiome. The gut brain access runs in both directions. A dysregulated nervous system disregulates the gut and a dysbiotic gut sends inflammatory signals. Up to the brain.

  So nervous system regulation is gut work. They're the same conversation. Acupuncture has documented effects on gut motility, gut microbiome composition, and systemic inflammation. From A TCM standpoint, it directly addresses liver chief stagnation, spleen deficiency, and damp. The three core patterns underlying the gut fertility [00:14:00] connection.

  I have seen meaningful shifts in digestion, cycle of regularity and overall wellbeing in patients who prioritize this work. If you have been carrying a diagnosis of unexplained infertility, I want you to hear this unexplained. Does not mean untreatable. It means the standard tools haven't found the answer yet.

  The gut is a place worth looking. It's a fertility organ, not metaphorically, but physiologically. It regulates your hormones, it trains your immune system, and it determines the inflammatory environment. Your reproductive organs are living in every single day, and it can be healed with time, with intention, and a holistic approach that treats the whole body as an intelligent, interconnected system that it is.

  That is the work if you want a structured place to begin supporting your body. For fertility, including nervous system regulation, which as we talked about is deeply connected to gut health. I created the B com [00:15:00] protocol. It's a free ebook, walking you through nervous system tools that are grounded in Chinese medicine and modern science.

  You can download it at michelle orbits.com/b-com with two m's, and you can also find this in the episode notes if this episode. Resonated with you. Please share it with someone who needs to hear it. Subscribe if you haven't yet, and I will see you in the next one.

  [00:16:00]

Ep 386 New Research Proves It's Not Just About Your Eggs

What if the key to improving egg quality has less to do with the egg itself, and more to do with the environment it lives in? In this episode, Michelle Oravitz breaks down a landmark study out of UCSF that used cutting-edge 3D imaging to map entire human and mouse ovaries at the cellular level, and what the researchers found is reshaping everything we thought we knew about ovarian health.

The study revealed that eggs are not scattered randomly throughout the ovary. They live inside communities made up of blood vessels, nerves, and support cells, and that surrounding environment actively shapes how eggs mature and how long they last. Even more striking, the researchers discovered that sympathetic (fight-or-flight) nerves are woven throughout the ovary and play a direct role in regulating which eggs receive the signal to grow.

Michelle also explores how Traditional Chinese Medicine has been describing this exact system for thousands of years through the framework of Kidney Jing, Liver Blood, and Qi flow, and how these ancient concepts map with remarkable precision onto what modern science is now confirming.

This episode will shift the way you think about fertility. Your ovarian ecosystem is not fixed. It is alive, responsive, and shaped by how you live every day.

Key Takeaways:

• Egg quality is shaped not just by the egg itself, but by the entire microenvironment surrounding it, including blood vessels, nerves, and support cells.

• Fight-or-flight nerves inside the ovary directly regulate which eggs receive the signal to mature.

• Ovarian blood vessel health is one of the first things to decline with age, reducing the nutrients and signals follicles need even when eggs are still present.

• The ovarian environment is dynamic and responds to what you eat, how you sleep, how you move, and the state of your nervous system.

• Traditional Chinese Medicine has described this system for thousands of years through Kidney Jing, Liver Blood, and Liver Qi stagnation, concepts that map directly onto what modern science is now finding.

• Practical support focuses on improving circulation, nourishing Kidney Jing, regulating the nervous system, and reducing inflammation
  

Disclaimer: The information shared on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider before making any changes to your health or fertility care.

For the Be-Calmm Protocol, click here: https://www.michelleoravitz.com/be-calmm

Ready to discover what your body needs most on your fertility journey?
Take the personalized quiz inside The Wholesome Fertility Journey and get tailored resources to meet you exactly where you are:

https://www.michelleoravitz.com/the-wholesome-fertility-journey

For more about my work and offerings, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Curious about ancient wisdom for fertility? Grab my book The Way of Fertility:
https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

Join the Wholesome Fertility Facebook Group for free resources & community support:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Connect with me on social:
Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility
Facebook: The Wholesome Lotus

Disclaimer: Some of the links shared are affiliates but this is at no cost to you and can even get you discounted prices!

• Transcript

  Speaker: [00:00:00] Episode number 386 of the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. I'm your host, Michelle Orbitz. If you've ever been told your egg count is too low, your A MH isn't where it should be, or your egg quality is a concern, today's episode is going to shift something for you because a landmark study published in the journal.

  Out of UCSF is changing the entire conversation about what egg quality actually means, and what I've found is something Chinese medicine has understood for a very long time. It's not just about the egg, it's about the entire ecosystem. The egg lives in today, we're breaking down that research, what it means for your fertility and the practical steps you can take to nourish your ovarian environment from the inside out through the lens of both modern science and traditional Chinese medicine.

  So if you wanna learn [00:01:00] more, stay tuned.

  Speaker 2: For decades, the conversation about female fertility has centered almost entirely on two things, how many eggs you have and how good they are. That's what a MH measures. That's what antal follicle count tells us. That's the framework most conventional for fertility care is built around an egg. Quality and quantity absolutely matter.

  I'm not dismissing that, but Dr. Diana Laird. A professor of obstetrics, gynecology and reproductive sciences at UCSF and her team wanted to look deeper using cutting edge 3D imaging technology. They mapped [00:02:00] entire ovaries at the cellular level in both mice and humans, and studied nearly a hundred thousand cells across different ages.

  What they found changed the picture entirely first. Eggs are not scattered randomly throughout the ovary. The way scientists assumed they're clustered in specific pockets surrounded by supporting cells, blood vessels, nerves, and connective tissue, and as the researchers put it, then environment around the egg may influence how long it last.

  And how well it matures. The egg does not exist in isolation. It lives inside a community and that community matters. Second, this is the part that genuinely surprised the researchers. They discovered that the ovary is wired with sympathetic nerves, the same nerves that are involved in fight or flight response, and when those nerves were removed in mice.

  Fewer eggs matured. Even though there were more [00:03:00] eggs in reserve, the nerves were helping to regulate which eggs get the signal to grow. Third, they identified a cell type in the ovaries called glia. These are support cells usually associated with a brain and the nervous system. Nobody expected to find them in the ovary, and yet there were actively participating in the ovarian environment.

  And finally they found that with age. It isn't just egg numbers declining, the entire microenvironment changes, fibroblasts trigger inflammation, connective tissue scars, nerve density increase in ways that may be disrupting communication rather than supporting it. As Dr. Laird said, and I love this quote.

  Ovarian aging is not just about the egg cells, but their whole ecosystem. Here's why this matters so much, especially if you've been told your egg quality or reserve is a concern. The conventional model essentially treats [00:04:00] eggs. As fixed, you have what you have, and while you cannot create new eggs, this research is showing us that the environments those eggs live in is not fixed.

  It's responsive, it's dynamic, and it can be influenced. Think about a seed. Two identical seeds can have very different outcomes depending on the soil they're planted in. One soil is rich, well-nourished with good drainage and the right minerals. The other. Is depleted, dry, full of inflammation, and the seed itself hasn't changed, but the environment it's in determines everything about what it can become.

  That is the ovarian ecosystem, and this research is telling us that the health of that ecosystem, the blood flow, the nerve signaling, the inflammatory environment, the supportive cells, is not just a background detail. It's central to fertility. Now, here's where Chinese medicine has been ahead of this conversation for a long time.

  In [00:05:00] TCM, we do not think about fertility in terms of isolated parts. We think about the whole body as an interconnected system, and we assess the quality of that system through the lens of Qi blood, jing, and the organ networks. Let me walk you through how this maps onto what the UCSF research found. The kidneys in Chinese medicine are the root of reproductive vitality.

  They store what we call jing, often translated as essence, which governs growth, development, reproduction, and aging. Jing is the deep constitutional resource. That determines the quality of our eggs, the thickness of our uterine lining, and the overall reproductive capacity. When kidney jing is depleted through chronic overwork, stress, poor sleep, nutrient deficiency, or simply the natural aging process, the entire reproductive ecosystem suffers not just the egg, the whole environment.[00:06:00]

  This maps directly onto what the UCSF. Study found ovarian aging is not one thing declining. It is a system depleting across multiple cell types, tissues and signaling pathways simultaneously. That is Jing deficiency described in the language of cellular biology. In Chinese medicine, the liver stores and governs the blood and blood nourishment is fundamental to egg quality and reproductive health.

  The liver also governs the smooth flow of chi throughout the body. And when liver chi stagnates, blood flow becomes compromised. Remember what the UCSF research showed about blood vessels? A companion study found that the earliest signs of ovarian aging. Began in the ovarian blood vessels, vascular aging, weakens the ovarian environment, reducing the signals and nutrients the follicles need, even when the eggs are still present.

  In Chinese medicine [00:07:00] terms, this is the liver blood deficiency and liver cheese stagnation affecting the fertility ecosystem and the treatment approach. Acupuncture, blood nourishing herbs. Movement Stress regulation is specifically designed to restore that circulation. The third piece is chief flow, and here is where that UCSF finding about sympathetic nerves becomes truly remarkable.

  From a Chinese medicine perspective, they found that sympathetic nerve. Fight or flight nerves are woven throughout the ovary and they regulate which eggs receive the signal to mature. When the body is in a chronic state of sympathetic activation, those nerve signals become dysregulated. The ovarian ecosystem receives confused instructions.

  In TCM, the free flow of QI is what allows every system in the body to communicate clearly and function well. When Q is stagnant, particularly when there's liver chi stagnation from chronic stress, that [00:08:00] communication breaks down the follicular environment becomes less hospitable. The body is in contraction rather than expansion.

  This is not metaphor. The UCSF research is showing us the cellular mechanism behind what Chinese medicine has been saying has been observing for thousands of years. So what do you actually do with this? The most important shift is this. Stop thinking about equality as the only variable infertility and start thinking about the entire ecosystem.

  Ask yourself, what is the quality of the environment my eggs are living in right now? Here are the areas I focus on with my patients and online clients. The research is clear that vascular health is one of the earliest and most significant factors in ovarian aging. In Chinese medicine, we call this nourishing and moving the blood.

  Practically, this looks like regular, gentle movement, walking, yoga, swimming to support [00:09:00] circulation to the reproductive organs. It means staying well hydrated. It means eating blood nourishing foods like dark, leafy greens, beets, lentils, grass fed red meat if you eat it, and deeply colored berries and acupuncture has measurable effects on blood flow to the ovaries and uterus.

  This is not a claim I'm making. There is published research on this and from a TCM standpoint, it makes complete sense. Nourishing Kidney essence and Jing. This is the foundational work. Deep rests, adequate sleep, reducing the drain on your system wherever you can. Foods that support kidney Jing include bone broth.

  Walnuts, black sesame seeds, kidney beans, eggs, and warming. Cooked foods that are easy to digest, and this is important. Jing is depleted by chronic stress, by pushing through exhaustion, by a nervous system that never fully rests. You cannot pour from an [00:10:00] empty vessel and you cannot nourish an ovarian ecosystem that is constantly running on empty.

  Here is where the sympathetic nerve finding becomes so personally meaningful to me. The UCSF research is literally showing us that the nerves inside your ovary are involved in regulating egg maturation, and those are the same nerves that respond to chronic stress when we work on nervous system regulation through breath work.

  Acupuncture mindset practices, reducing the constant state of urgency that the fertility journey can create. We are not doing something soft and peripheral. We're directly influencing the signaling environment inside the ovary. This is real. This is physiological, and it is why I am so passionate about bringing this work together.

  The UCSF study found that fibroblasts in the ovaries begin triggering inflammation and scarring years before it appears in other organs. In Chinese medicine, [00:11:00] this pattern correlates with what we call heat in the blood, or accumulated stagnation, creating inflammation over time. Anti-inflammatory nutrition matters here, reducing refined sugar, processed foods, alcohol, prioritizing Omega-3 fatty acids, antioxidant rich vegetables and foods that support the liver in processing and clearing what the body no longer needs.

  What I love most about this research. And why I wanted to make this video is that it challenges the fixed passive narrative that so many women receive about their fertility. You're not just a number on a lab report. Your body is not a static snapshot. Though ovarian ecosystem is alive, responsive, and in conversation with everything you eat, how you sleep, how much you move.

  What your nervous system is doing all day long. Yes, age is a factor, and yes, some things are beyond our control. I will never tell you otherwise, but [00:12:00] the environment those eggs are living in, that is something you can actively, meaningfully influence. And that is worth everything. I hope this episode gave you a new way of thinking about your fertility.

  One that feels less fixed and more full of possibility because that is the truth that both ancient medicine and modern science keep arriving at. The body is not broken. It's an ecosystem and ecosystems can be nourished. If you want a practical place to start, I created the BComm protocol, ways to Support your Nervous System, regulation and fertility from the inside out.

  It's grounded in both Chinese medicine and modern research and is designed to give you something concrete and real to work with right away. You can download it at michelle orbits.com/b-com with two m's, and you can also find it in the episode notes. If this information resonated with you, please share with someone who needs to hear it and subscribe if you haven't [00:13:00] yet, and I will see you in the next one.

  [00:14:00]

Ep 385 Your Nervous System Is Running Your Fertility (And You Don't Even Know It)

Could the missing piece in your fertility journey have nothing to do with hormones, and everything to do with your nervous system? In this episode, Michelle Oravitz explores the powerful overlap between polyvagal theory (modern neuroscience) and Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM), revealing why both systems point to the same root cause: a body that doesn't feel safe enough to create life.

Michelle breaks down how the three states of the nervous system, ventral vagal (safety), sympathetic (fight-or-flight), and dorsal vagal (shutdown), map directly onto foundational TCM concepts like smooth Qi flow, liver Qi stagnation, and kidney deficiency. She also explores the profound heart-uterus connection, known in TCM as the Bao Mai, and how a settled heart and regulated nervous system create the internal environment most supportive of conception.

This isn't about relaxing more. It's about active, body-based regulation, and Michelle shares practical tools including acupuncture, herbal medicine, breathwork, and movement to help you get there.

Key Takeaways:

• Your body will not prioritize reproduction when it feels unsafe, and safety is a biological requirement for conception.

• Polyvagal theory and Traditional Chinese Medicine map the same nervous system states, just in different languages separated by thousands of years.

• Both modern science and TCM confirm a direct heart-uterus connection, meaning a settled heart creates a more receptive environment for conception.

• Regulation is an active, body-based process and not simply relaxation or telling yourself to calm down.

• A slow, extended exhale is one of the fastest ways to activate the ventral vagal pathway and shift your nervous system state.

• Your nervous system filters the present through every past experience, including old stories about your body being broken or not enough.
  

Disclaimer: The information shared on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider before making any changes to your health or fertility care.

For the Be-Calmm Protocol, click here: https://www.michelleoravitz.com/be-calmm

Ready to discover what your body needs most on your fertility journey?
Take the personalized quiz inside The Wholesome Fertility Journey and get tailored resources to meet you exactly where you are:

https://www.michelleoravitz.com/the-wholesome-fertility-journey

For more about my work and offerings, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Curious about ancient wisdom for fertility? Grab my book The Way of Fertility:
https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

Join the Wholesome Fertility Facebook Group for free resources & community support:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Connect with me on social:
Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility
Facebook: The Wholesome Lotus

Disclaimer: Some of the links shared are affiliates but this is at no cost to you and can even get you discounted prices!

• Transcript

  [00:00:00] [00:01:00]

  Speaker: Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. I'm Michelle, a fertility acupuncturist here to provide you with resources on how to create a wholesome approach to your fertility journey.

  Polyvagal theory was developed by Dr. Steven Porches, a neuroscience who has spent decades studying the vagus nerve and how your nervous system responds to threat and safety. Here's the simplified version. Most of us grew up learning that the nervous system has two modes, fight or flight, which is the sympathetic system kicking in when there's danger and rest and digest, which is your parasympathetic system.

  Bringing [00:02:00] you back down. But Porches discovered something much more nuanced than that. He found that the vagus nerve, the longest nerve in your body, running from your brainstem all the way down through your heart, lungs, and digestive organs actually has. Two distinct branches and they do very different things.

  The older branch, what he calls the dorsal vagal, is the most primitive survival response. It's what causes you to shut down, freeze dissociate, or go numb when a situation feels. Completely overwhelming. Think of an animal playing dead. That's dorsal vagal. The newer branch, the ventral vagal is what governs social connection, safety, and regulation.

  When this branch is active, you feel calm, but alert. Present, connected, open, and then there there's sympathetic activation, that familiar fight or flight response, heart racing, mind spinning, body brace for danger. [00:03:00] Porches calls this the social engagement system, and what he discovered is that our nervous system is constantly scanning the environment, not consciously, but automatically asking, am I safe?

  Can I connect? Do I need to protect myself? He calls this process neuroception. Your body's always listening, always evaluating completely beneath your awareness. Now, why does this matter for fertility? Because reproduction is not a survival function. Your body will not prioritize creating new life when it believes it is under threat.

  Full stop. Here's where it gets really interesting. Chinese medicine does not have a word for the nervous system the way that Western medicine does, but when you look at the core principles of TCM, chief Flow stagnation, the organ systems, the Heart Chen connection, you realize that this medicine has been mapping out the same terrain for [00:04:00] thousands of years, just in a different language.

  Let's start with Qi. Qi is life force Vitality, the animating intelligence of the body. And in Chinese medicine, the most fundamental principle of health is this. QI must flow. When Qi flows freely, the body is able to get back into balance. When she stagnates, when it gets blocked, suppressed, or stuck, that's when symptoms appear.

  Now, think about what chronic stress does to the body. The muscles brace, the breath gets shallow, the digestion slows. The menstrual cycle becomes irregular, the mind races or shuts down. Sound familiar? In TCM, that pattern has a name and it's called liver cheese stagnation, and it shows up in the majority of people I see.

  The liver and Chinese medicine is responsible for the smooth flow of teeth throughout the entire body. It governs emotional processing, especially frustration, anger, and [00:05:00] unresolved stress when we are chronically in a state. Sympathetic activation. The liver chi gets stuck and stuck. Liver chi disrupts the menstrual cycle, affects blood flow to the uterus and creates that tight contracted bracing quality in the body that is the opposite of what fertility needs.

  Now let's talk about the heart. In Chinese medicine, the heart houses the sheen, often translated as spirit or consciousness. The sheen is your sense of self, your mental clarity, your emotional presence, and here's something that I find profound. The heart in TCM governs the uterus through a channel called Bow Mai.

  The heart and uterus are in direct communication. When the shen is unsettled, when the heart is flooded with anxiety, grief, fear. Or overwhelm that disturbance, travels down the bowel, mi, and affects the uterine environment. And what does polyvagal theory tell us? That the [00:06:00] vagus nerve connects the brainstem directly to the heart.

  That a regulated nervous system begins with a regulated heart. These two systems are describing the same thing. Let me map this out even more directly because I think that once you see it, you can't unsee it. Ventral vagal activation. That state of safety and social connection porches describes, looks a lot like white Chinese medicine calls smooth chief flow.

  The body is open, the breath is full, the mind is clear. There's a quality of ease of presence of being able to receive. That is the state in which conception is most supported. That is the state. Where the uterine lining is well-nourished where hormones can communicate clearly where the body feels safe enough to carry life.

  Sympathetic activation, fight or flight maps closely to what TCM calls liver chi stagnation and heart fire. The body [00:07:00] is braced, contracted hot. Reactive chi is moving, but moving erratically forcefully in the wrong direction. Dorsal vagal shutdown. That frozen collapse, numb state maps to what TCM calls.

  Kidney deficiency, deep depletion, or what we might call a disconnection between the heart and the uterus, through the bmi. The life force has gone quiet. The body has pulled inward to conserve. Now I wanna make clear that none of this is about blame. These are protective responses. Your nervous system is doing exactly what it was designed to do, but when these states become chronic, your body gets stuck in protection mode.

  Fertility suffers. Not because something's broken, but because your body is listening. So what do you actually do with this? First I want you to understand that regulation is not relaxation. This is a really important distinction. Polyvagal informed approaches are not about taking a bath. Or telling yourself to calm [00:08:00] down.

  And Chinese medicine is not about passive rest either. Both of these systems understand that true regulation is an active process. It happens in the body through the body. In Chinese medicine, we use acupuncture to directly, I. The nervous system stimulating specific points that activate the vagus nerve, calm the s sheen, and move stuck qi.

  The research on acupuncture in the autonomic nervous system is genuinely compelling at this point. We use herbs to nourish the kidney essence, support heart, blood, and anchor the she when it feels scattered or anxious. We use breath work because the breath is one of the most direct access points we have to the vagus nerve.

  A slow extended exhale activates the ventral vagal pathway. And TCM conscious breathing has been used for centuries to regulate QI and calm the heart. We use [00:09:00] movement. Gentle rhythmic movement because the vagus nerve responds to rhythm, to co-regulation, to the feeling of the body moving through space safely.

  And perhaps most importantly, we work on the story that the nervous system is carrying. Because Neuroception is not just about responding to what's happening now, it's filtering the present through every past experience, every message absorbed about your body being broken or behind, or not enough changing.

  That takes time. It's absolutely possible. Here's the thread that ties all of this together. Your heart is the center in modern science. It's the primary organ of vagal communication in Chinese medicine. It's the seed of the she and the governor of the uterus through the B ma. When your heart is settled, when your nervous system is regulated, when the she feels safe, that signal travels [00:10:00] down to the uterus, to the reproductive system.

  To the body's capacity to receive, to hold, to grow. This is not wishful thinking. This is physiology, meeting ancient wisdom, and they are arriving at the same conclusion. Fertility is not just a hormone problem, it's a whole body state. And the nervous system is at the center of that state. I know that the fertility journey can feel like a constant chase.

  More tests, more supplements, more protocols. And I'm not saying that those things don't matter, they absolutely do. But if the container, your body, your nervous system, your internal environment is stuck in a state of chronic. Protection. Adding more inputs won't create the shift you're looking for. The work is in the regulation, in creating safety from the inside out and helping your body understand on a physiological level that it is okay to be here, that it is safe to open.

  That is the work I'm so passionate [00:11:00] about, and this is the work I wanna support you in. If this resonated with you and you want a place to start, I created something called the. Be calm protocol that's calm with two ms. It's a free ebook that walks you through a protocol I use with my patients to support nervous system regulation and fertility from the inside out.

  It's grounded in both Chinese medicine and modern neuroscience, and it's designed to give you something practical and real to work with. You can download it@michelleorbits.com slash b dash. Com with two M's. The link is also in the description below, and if you found this helpful, please share it with someone who needs to hear it.

  Subscribe if you haven't yet, and I will see you in the next one.

  Speaker 2: So that concludes today's episode. You can find all of the links mentioned on the episode notes. If you're enjoying these episodes, please take a moment to share and leave a review. Reviews mean everything to [00:12:00] podcasters and I really enjoy hearing from my listeners. You can find me on my website@www.michelleorbit.com.

  You could also reach out to me on Instagram, and I love getting dms from my listeners. My handle is at the wholesome Lotus Fertility. I thank you so much for tuning in today and I hope you have a beautiful [00:13:00] day.

Ep 384 Movement, Energy & Fertility: Why Belly Dancing Is More Than Just Dance

On today’s episode I am joined by Jennifer Sobel (@femininefireofficial), a professional belly dance instructor and creator of The Belly Dance Solution, to explore how movement can deeply support fertility, pelvic health, and overall well-being. With over 20 years of experience and a background in Traditional Chinese Medicine, Jennifer brings a unique perspective on how dance can be both healing and empowering.

In this episode, we dive into how belly dancing strengthens the pelvic floor, improves circulation, and supports reproductive health. We also explore the powerful mind-body connection, the role of awareness in healing, and how playful, feminine movement can regulate the nervous system and bring energy back into the body. This conversation is a beautiful reminder that healing doesn’t always have to feel like work, it can feel like joy, expression, and connection.

Key Takeaways:

• Belly dancing strengthens the pelvic floor while promoting both contraction and relaxation

• Movement increases blood flow and energy (Qi) to the reproductive organs

• Awareness and intentional movement can shift both physical and emotional health

• Nervous system regulation plays a key role in fertility and overall well-being

• Playful, feminine movement can be a powerful and healing modality
  

Disclaimer: The information shared on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider before making any changes to your health or fertility care.

Ready to discover what your body needs most on your fertility journey?
Take the personalized quiz inside The Wholesome Fertility Journey and get tailored resources to meet you exactly where you are:

https://www.michelleoravitz.com/the-wholesome-fertility-journey

For more about my work and offerings, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Curious about ancient wisdom for fertility? Grab my book The Way of Fertility:
https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

Join the Wholesome Fertility Facebook Group for free resources & community support:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Connect with me on social:
Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility
Facebook: The Wholesome Lotus

Disclaimer: Some of the links shared are affiliates but this is at no cost to you and can even get you discounted prices!

• Transcript

  Speaker: [00:00:00] Episode number 3 84 of the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. I'm your host, Michelle Orbit, and today on the podcast, I'm joined by Jennifer Sobel, a professional belly dancer instructor with more than 21 years of experience and the creator of the Belly Dance Solution.

  A research back program that has helped over 30,000 women address bladder leaking through targeted belly dance movements. Jennifer also has a master's in traditional Chinese medicine, which makes this conversation especially fun because we get to explore movement, energy, pelvic health, and fertility through a unique lens.

  In this episode, we talk about how belly dancing can support not only the pelvic floor, but also circulation posture, nervous system regulation, and overall reproductive health. We also dive into the deeper mind body [00:01:00] connection, how movement brings awareness and life force back into the body, and why practices that feel playful and feminine can.

  Also be profoundly healing. This is such a beautiful conversation about reconnecting with your body, your energy, and your power in a way that feels joyful and freeing. So be sure to stay tuned.

  Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. I'm Michelle, a fertility acupuncturist here to provide you with resources on how to create a wholesome approach to your fertility journey.

  Michelle: Welcome to the podcast, Jennifer.

  Jennifer: Thank you so much for having me.

  Michelle: I'm so excited to have you. love belly dancing. We're gonna be talking about really how that can support fertility and also like the movement and [00:02:00] the energy in the body. So before we get started, I'd love for you to share your origin story, which I know is, somewhat similar to mine.

  Jennifer: Yeah. Yeah. well, it's interesting because my story is one of those kind of stories where when you're in your life, you don't see how it's all gonna come together. But then when you look back, you see the through line. That's how my origin story is. So I actually began my professional career in Chinese medicine.

  and so I was an acupuncturist for about five years, and at the same time that I started practicing acupuncture, I started doing belly dance. Within two years I was doing it professionally and I just fell in love with it and it became my passion. And so, you know, during the day I am doing acupuncture at [00:03:00] night, doing belly dancing, and it just, I just wanted to belly dance all the time.

  It's not that I didn't like, like acupuncture, but I felt like my calling was in belly dance. And in movement. And so it took me a long time to stop practicing acupuncture because as you know, it's, many years of schooling. It's a huge commitment. It's a lot of time and energy and money, and so it was hard to let that go, but I thought, you know what?

  This really feels like my path. So I. After I, stopped practicing acupuncture, I started going more into the fitness realm and I became a personal trainer. And I did that for about four years at the same time that I'm continuing to perform and teach. And I was just trying to figure out like, how can I do this full-time?

  How can I make my passion into a [00:04:00] full-time business? And in 2016, I launched a digital marketing business. And so I learned the marketing side of things and in 20, 19 or something like that, I thought, you know what? I'm gonna do it. I'm gonna make a product, a digital product, a course for belly dancing, but what should it be?

  You know, it can't be super general. So I was at the gym and I was on the treadmill, and a commercial came on for a bladder leaking drug.

  Michelle: Hmm.

  Jennifer: in that moment, something connected. And I remembered an incident that had occurred probably three years prior to that. One of my belly dance students came up to me after class and she was really excited and happy and she said, I have something to tell you.

  And I was like, what? And she said, well, since I've been belly dancing, I don't have bladder leaking anymore. And so in that moment, I [00:05:00] put those two things together and I thought, Hmm, I wonder if there's something to this. Like I wonder if I can help more women with this. And then I did my research and I was shocked to find out that this is one of the most common things that women will have in their lifetime, and that it's one in three women will have bladder leaking at some point in their life, whether it's.

  You know, commonly after having children or as they get older, start entering perimenopause, menopause. And I thought, you know what, let me, let me see if there, there's some interest in that. And I tested the idea with just a free video to a belly dance thing, and so many people were interested and I thought, okay, well let me really analyze what, what belly dance movements do I think are most powerful for strengthening the pelvic floor.

  And then I remembered, you know, also. I've researched this before and a lot of people believe that belly dance actually originated as a dance to help [00:06:00] women prepare for and recover from childbirth because it naturally does strengthen the pelvic floor. And so then I put my program together, the Belly Dance Solution, teaching the movements that I think are most powerful for strengthening the pelvic floor, but also just.

  Other movements that get women into the, the fun and the flow of belly dancing. And since 2020 I've been, continuing to create more and more belly dance programs and I've, you know, had over 30,000 women join my Belly Dance Solution program. And it's just helped so many women to relieve or sometimes even completely eliminate their bladder leaking and something they've been dealing with for years.

  And I think that. What's so interesting about this problem is that it's probably one of the most common things that women experience, but it's also probably one of the most shameful and one of the most secret things because it is connected to so [00:07:00] much embarrassment and shame. And so women don't find the resources that they need to help them because they sometimes don't even tell their best friends.

  Michelle: Yeah.

  for sure. And as far as, one of the things I like about belly dancing is it does use the area, you know, that second chakra womb area. so I'm sure that it does more than just. Strengthen the pelvic floor, but it can also get more blood flow to the uterus. To the pelvis and really support like that fertility and reproductive health.

  And, because one of the things that I had, we, we had talked in the pre-talk I've learned is Kundalini yoga. Which also really works on that, that energetics of your chakras and, and really kind of getting those energy centers moving. and so that's, that was something that actually found intriguing about this.

  'cause I know that this is like the focus, but. There's [00:08:00] probably so much more happening. So as far as that goes, and those energy meridians, knowing that you understand, TCM and also that lower Dante, which is right.

  below the belly button, and that kind of like energy center that we have, which is very, very strong.

  It's a very strong, powerful area. what are your, findings or thoughts about that?

  Jennifer: that is, it's such an interesting topic. and actually that kind of brings me for full circle to, you know, for a long time I was like, well, why did, why did, I mean, I went into Chinese medicine because I love it and I think it's so interesting in such a. A wise way to guide how you live, but I think what drew me to it ultimately is that I'm interested in healing modalities and I think that belly dance is one of those healing modalities in particular for women's bodies, and I am interested more [00:09:00] in that healing power.

  More than I am with the technique. And I mean, I teach technique in my programs enough so that you feel confident doing the movement, but to me that's not the highest thing. It's that this dance is powerful at helping women to heal and going back to the energy and, and that being a powerful energy center.

  It absolutely is. And so many of the movements that we do in belly dance just really promotes circulation in that area, in the pelvis and the hips, in that lower Dian. And so you're getting that energy, the blood and the energy moving. But also, you know, I think there's something incredibly powerful about where you put your consciousness.

  Michelle: Yes, I was gonna say that I was thinking the same exact thing,

  Jennifer: You know, and when you put your consciousness in that area, when normally there's [00:10:00] not at all, or maybe you have a consciousness there that's connected to trauma or anxiety or fear, but when you bring your consciousness into that area from a power place and that you do have power and control over your body, something incredibly wonderful happens.

  Michelle: You know, and that's backed by research because people who just think about exercising, they're just, their mind is focused on it Even if they're sitting still, they just see themselves doing it. Their muscles change. Their body responds, the physiology responds to our thoughts. So, so this is no longer woo to anybody who

  Jennifer: you're right. It's

  Michelle: it's just, it's no longer woo.

  It's true. It's, it's, It's not woo. it's true.

  Jennifer: That's such a great one. I would be a great teacher. I think you should make that.

  Michelle: That's my new program. [00:11:00]

  Jennifer: I think we have a new side business for you, Michelle,

  Michelle: totally. so

  Jennifer: so speaking from a marketer as well. So like I like it.

  Michelle: I just downloaded that by the way. I get some very, humorous spirit guides talking to me sometimes.

  Jennifer: Love that

  Michelle: So, so, and laughter's healthy too, by the way. And contagious. But Yeah. I mean all of this stuff is, is backed by science. As you were telling me this, and I, I was thinking to myself like, I'm just picturing like. Somebody working really hard or putting their attention to movement just in one particular area.

  'cause it is in a sense you're like, to correct me if I'm wrong, you're, you're keeping other parts more static and you're moving the pelvic region so that you're, you have to focus [00:12:00] on that. It like, it it for like the movement itself forces you to move your energy and your thoughts to that area. And that's the area really of our reproduction and creativity.

  Jennifer: Oh yes. Creativity like and, and creativity. You know, I think a lot of times when people think about creativity, they think about, oh, they're creating art or something like that, but your life is art.

  Michelle: Yep,

  Jennifer: to create anything you want in your life. Not a painting only, you know, but to create your life as you, as you want to.

  And yeah, it's like, it's like a type of Qigong, if you will.

  Michelle: Yeah. Yeah, totally. And, and so that's the thing where, you know, there's so many exercises or things that we sort of think, oh, that's just like a pretty dance. No, no, no. It's way more, it's way more. and then when you're talking about healing, my thought was like, it's not, you're not just healing physically, you're healing mentally.

  We know. [00:13:00] We were trained to understand really like the connections of our body, our organs, our emotions, our spirit. it's all one thing. There's no sections of it. It all comes together. So movement. I find is incredibly underestimated, super powerful, and it's one of the ways that now therapy is moving, therapy is moving towards somatic exercises and somatic therapy because it used to be that we used to just talk a lot about our, you know, conditions or traumas or, and then actually getting into the body is what seems to really turn that key to release us.

  Jennifer: Oh, it's so, it's so true. And I, I had this epiphany a couple weeks ago. I was doing one of these, meditations on insight timer around, Nervous system, calming the nervous system strategies. And I had this epiphany [00:14:00] because we think that, we have certain thoughts and that creates a problem in our nervous system.

  But when our nervous system is out of balance, that's what creates the thoughts.

  Michelle: Mm-hmm. It's bidirectional.

  Jennifer: the stress. It's, it's, it's actually the stress in your body and your nervous system that's making you think a certain way. If you can calm your body down, you'll have different thoughts

  Michelle: It's fascinating. Yeah. There's, there's research also that like, Your nervous system and also how you feel mentally impacts your gut microbiome and vice versa. If your gut microbiome's off, it can impact your mind. So it's this incredible bidirectional communication that even, even through just meditation, they're finding that that can impact your microbiome. So it's really fascinating. So like, yeah, so it would totally make sense that if your body.

  felt more at ease, [00:15:00] more release, and more free, your mind's gonna feel more free. And we know in Chinese medicine, like, you know, you talk about like blood deficiency that can impact anxiety. People don't realize, well, you may not be just like anxious for no reason.

  It's because your, your heart's not getting the blood it. needs in order to feel more calm and it ease. So it's wild how. People don't realize like the role your body plays in your mind.

  Jennifer: right. Yeah, and I mean, it's something that we've, So many people, so easily neglect because we give so much. We give all importance to our mind,

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Jennifer: we forget about the wisdom of our body, the healing power of our body, and how that can heal our mind.

  Michelle: Yeah, totally. And how our mind impacts our body. it's kinda like this whole like, it's like a circle.

  Jennifer: Yeah, totally.

  Michelle: so how, like what types of movements, obviously belly dancing, I think everybody can kind of like imagine what [00:16:00] it's like, when they see. Movies and videos, but explain in more detail like really the muscles people are using, how that impacts the body a little differently than other types of movements.

  Jennifer: Well, one of the cool things about belly dance is that it's non impact. So,

  Michelle: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

  Jennifer: low impact. I don't know if anything's no impact. so it's very easy on the body. It's very easy on the joints. and I think, you know, because it's called belly dance. People think it's all about just the, the torso, the core, the belly.

  But it's not, it's really a total body workout. You use your arms a lot, you use your legs a lot, your glutes, your glutes that are often totally, what's the word? ignored and asleep for most people because we sit so much, which creates so much imbalance in our bodies. so yeah, it works your entire body.

  But yeah, there is a, a big core focus [00:17:00] because the core is the connection between the upper body and the lower body, and it is. Often a dance of isolation. When you're moving one part of the body, you're not moving the other part of the body, but you work your core from all angles, which is really unusual, with most exercises because you're only moving in maybe one or two planes of motion.

  But in belly dance, you're moving in all planes of motion. And there's also two phases to the movement. You have a phase where you're contracting and where you're relaxing, which makes it more beneficial than Kegels, or I would say less likely to create. Hypertenicity too much tightness because you're also releasing, every time you do a movement, you contract and then you fully relax.

  And so it builds that relaxation [00:18:00] phase into your body instead of just hold, hold, hold, hold. Which is what we do most of the day anyways. 'cause we're stressed.

  Michelle: Yeah, we don't realize like it's unconscious, but that, that type of technique is actually a relaxation technique that a lot of people do where you tighten areas and then you release and it gets more blood flow and, and you know, it calms the muscles around it. 'cause you're, you are actually controlling the contractions.

  Jennifer: Right. Very interesting. Yeah, it's very

  Michelle: Yeah. And I.

  know that there's some research around the benefits of belly dancing besides the fact that, you know, it helps with a bladder. What other research have you seen?

  Jennifer: I don't know that I've seen any published research, other than the bladder leaking, which was in the Journal of Physical Therapy Science,

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Jennifer: where they specifically studied belly dance for strengthening the pelvic floor and [00:19:00] found it to be effective for that. I haven't seen any other. Studies published in medical journals, but I mean, I'm not surprised.

  It's probably not something that most people would, would invest in studying. I wish there would be, if there's anybody out there, I would love to put something together. because I do think that there, you know, could be different ways to explore that and,

  Michelle: But it's all interconnected. I'm gonna say, you know, if it's helping the pelvic floor, it's helping other things.

  Jennifer: yeah, absolutely. And, you know, just also the, the hips and the hip stabilizers is very important. I mean, I've been doing this professionally for over 20 years, and when I'm teaching a class, I still feel burn, you know, like I still feel those muscles working. it's also good with your balance.

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Jennifer: your posture, which is so important.

  it just brings so much awareness to your posture and also [00:20:00] strengthens the muscles that create good posture. but again, you know, it goes back to what we were saying before, that awareness, awareness changes everything. It's the

  Michelle: It really does. Yeah. I feel like awareness brings more life force into your body. I feel like one of this is kind of my theory is that one of the issues that our bodies have is it's sort of like a lack of, intelligent awareness because you literally can leave your body and you sort of create a, a void.

  In certain areas, which makes sense with Chinese medicine, how life force vitality chi, should be really flooding every part of our bodies in order to really create vitality. And then sometimes we have areas that don't have that as much, whether it's blocked or, just pretty much awareness is, is taken out of it.

  When you're in meditation, even if you have areas where you're feel like I I'll literally feel. I tend [00:21:00] to hold, it's kind of like a liver cheese stagnation pattern. upper shoulder pain, especially if I'm working on a lot on my computer and I'm really hyper-focused, I, I'll tighten without realizing it.

  and when I do meditations, I'll put my focus on that. area and I literally feel it like with my mind, releasing, releasing, releasing. And so my thought is, is if you don't have a guard in your house. Other things can come in. And so I, when you're bringing your attention and focus to your body, you're actually preventing a lot of issues from happening.

  And I, it's my theory, it's a thought, it's, it was a download. It was a, yeah.

  Jennifer: I love that. I think that makes so much sense. So much sense. And like you were saying in the, you know, in in, in our modern society, we are vacant a lot of times. You know, we're engaging with whether it's our work or social media, and we aren't there. We're not present. Our consciousness [00:22:00] is not there, and stress can make us leave our bodies.

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Jennifer: I, I think that's a really fascinating, theory point. I think it makes a lot of sense.

  Michelle: Which kind of, in that sense might be why it's, you know, research shows that meditation and kind of doing things that make you more present actually does increase your lifespan and improves your vitality and your health, you know, and that is one of the ways it works, is really bringing us to be in the present moment.

  And I feel like when you're here. Your consciousness is here, your chi is here, everything comes here to the same spot. And that's that presence. It's interesting 'cause you were talking about Sicily, how in Europe people are a lot more present and you can feel that vitality when you're present, even when you're present in a conversation, you feel a lot more alive.

  Jennifer: Oh,

  Michelle: Versus if you're like on your phone, somebody's talking to you, you're like here and there. You're scattered, scattered energy. It just doesn't, it doesn't function [00:23:00] like whole.

  Jennifer: I love that. I love that. Yeah. So then our energy is totally dissipated in

  Michelle: Yeah. But when you're moving, like in me, belly dancing, you have to be conscious.

  Jennifer: Yeah, and I mean, it's like, I think if you take a walk or you go for a run, it's very easy to still be in your mind. You know, you can still be in that hamster wheel, but when you're doing something like belly dance that requires you to, I feel this way actually when I do strength training, like you've got to be 100% present you, 'cause you're also like, oh, how do I do this move?

  And, and it brings you. Like immediately into your body, you are not in that dialogue anymore. And that in itself is healing because we need to be able to get out of that internal mental loop that we're in all the time

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Jennifer: to be healthy.

  Michelle: It's like that flow state. It really is. you know, and, and that flow state where they [00:24:00] say it's like a mind flow state where a lot of athletes get to, we understand it from a different perspective. 'cause of, of how we're trained. That flow state is really kind of like the qi life force moving unimpeded.

  Like really, really centered. Yeah.

  Jennifer: I love that. I love how you bring in the Chinese medicine in these very practical, present ways. And that's what's so beautiful about this medicine is it was created thousands of years ago, but it's still so relevant and can be applied to just our day-to-day lives here and now.

  Michelle: I think 'cause they were so right on and, and one of the reasons why I think they were so right on is because they listened. They listened to nature, they watch it. They really learn from what already is. They're not making their own new, their own reality. They're just receiving and, and perceiving what already is, which is kind of the yin and the yang and how things really do work, you know, as [00:25:00] far as living things here on earth.

  Jennifer: Right. Yes. And it just that yin yang theory can be applied to everything.

  Michelle: Yeah. And then I think to myself, you know, with belly dancing, kind of similar to kundin yoga, like it works on that, that spiral, that kind of energy With this, you know, the spiral, you could see the Fibonacci sequence. We have that in our bodies. things kind of work in spirals. Even the yin and yang works kind of in spirals.

  It kind of moves into each other. So I, I think about that. I wonder, it would be really nice if. If there was more research on really like how that energy, you know, through the spine

  Jennifer: Mm-hmm.

  Michelle: is really opening and kind of, opening that like first, second chakra, bringing energy up Through the spine into the body. Yeah.

  Jennifer: Yeah. And I mean, as you mentioned that when you're talking about shapes and the spirals, that is another interesting aspect to belly dance is that a lot of those [00:26:00] movements are. Like, you know, sacred geometry, you know, we have a lot of these waves, you know, the snake, the undulation movements, the figure aids, the infinity, and you're literally making those shapes with your body.

  And, you know, one of the most powerful things, I did a YouTube video on it recently. you know, this whole somatic shaking

  Michelle: No, I'm just shaking in general, like just to release the energy kind of.

  Jennifer: because like, animals do this naturally when they're like some, they

  Michelle: If if there's if you get scared, if you get scared or if a car comes in front of you or something like that, like, the best thing to do is to Shake so that you don't hold onto that.

  Jennifer: Yeah. So it's like a technique that they have in somatic therapy is called somatic shaking. And you just shake different parts of your body to, reset your nervous system. And shimmies, we do shimmies and belly dance and shimmies are a wonderful way to do that. Somatic shaking. And from a [00:27:00] Chinese medicine perspective.

  Moving that chii, it's like moving that cheese stagnation. 'cause you're just moving that energy all through your body, through that shimmy and it feels so good. I shimmy every day. 'cause it is just fun. It is just, yeah, it's just fun.

  Michelle: It is, it brings us back to when we were kids and like we wanted to just move. And I I, you look at like, kids, kids are actually such a good example of like what you should be doing, like belly breath and, you know, movement constantly. Like not sitting still for too long and like if you, as we're getting older, we get more stagnated 'cause we're sitting all day.

  We we, our life and even driving all day, commuting, all of those things over time can stagnate our energy. And that's not even to talk about like the stress aspect of it as well.

  Jennifer: Oh, that's such a good point about kids, you know, like looking at what they're doing because yeah, they wouldn't be able to sit still. And [00:28:00] we're, I can sit, you know, for like you're saying, for hours at my Compu computer and be like, oh my gosh. You know, but it's, so, it's one of the worst things for our body, is this constant sitting.

  And it's also not, it's also a big reason why the pelvic floor has dysfunction is from sitting all the time.

  Michelle: And that is, ladies listening, that impacts your fertility as well. It's not just, you know, the pelvic floor, that whole area. Everything's connected. There's fascia that connects all of it. It's all part of the same thing. There's not like, it's not pieces. So if one piece is out of balance, the whole thing's outta balance.

  Jennifer: Right, right. Yeah. And there's a connection between your pelvic floor and your diaphragm.

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Jennifer: And so when you move your, your breathing, you can breathe more rhythmically, you can connect your breath to the movements. Just movement alone just relieves stress. [00:29:00] You know, I think we've, in our modern world, we think of movement as exercise, like it's gotta be exercise or working out.

  But movement is just pleasure. It's fun to just move your body.

  Michelle: It's experience.

  Jennifer: it's play what? You know, we lost that association with movement as being play and exploration. Like kids, like you said, that's how they do.

  Michelle: It's like freedom in our bodies.

  Jennifer: It's freedom in our bodies. Like it's just, it's play exploration. You get curious,

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Jennifer: oh look, cool, look at, look at how I can move this. I didn't know I could do that. That's fun.

  Michelle: And a relief. Stress it. It gives you a time, like a moment, a break from everything else just to release all of that built up energy.

  Jennifer: And if you shimmy for five minutes, you walk, not, not even five minutes, two minutes, you will feel that

  Michelle: I like shaking in general. Like [00:30:00] I, I like to shake my body when I wake up in the morning 'cause it, it feels like my, my body's like more free. 'cause you get stagnated overnight. Like your, your water stagnates, everything. Like a lot of great things happen when you're sleeping, but your body gets a little more stiff as you're waking up.

  So it's a great way to like get the energy moving, cleaning, and then also the detoxification.

  Jennifer: Yeah. Yeah. That's cool.

  Michelle: Awesome. So if people are interested in looking into your program and also learning more, from you, how can they find you?

  Jennifer: Yeah. so my program for, belly Dance for strengthening the pelvic floor is, the belly dance solution.com, and I'm also on Facebook at the Belly Dance Solution. I am also on there as. Feminine Fire is my

  Michelle: I love that.

  Jennifer: I'm on, YouTube at Feminine Fire. So, those are the main ways to find me.

  Michelle: Awesome. And I'll have all of the [00:31:00] links in the episode notes for anybody who wants to find it. So Jennifer, this is a great conversation.

  Jennifer: you so

  Michelle: I had a lot of fun talking to you about this and it was cool 'cause we had, we have the Same.

  we have a similar language and understanding how things work as far as our body.

  So that was kind of cool.

  Jennifer: It was fun. Thank you so much for having me.

  Michelle: It's a pleasure.

Ep 383 A New Way to Freeze Your Eggs: Retreats, Community, and Holistic Care

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I am joined by Aliza Virani (@thefertilitycoliving), founder of The Fertility Co-Living, to explore a completely new approach to egg freezing that combines medical care, holistic wellness, and community. Aliza shares her personal journey through egg freezing, including the emotional challenges, high financial costs, and lack of support she experienced. After spending thousands of dollars on a cycle that resulted in only a few eggs, she knew there had to be a better way, which led her to create a retreat-style experience where women can go through egg freezing together while receiving both clinical and holistic support.

In this episode, we discuss the true cost of egg freezing in North America, why more women are choosing to go abroad, and how integrating nervous system regulation, nutrition, and community can improve both the experience and outcomes. This is a powerful conversation that brings a more human, supported, and intentional approach to fertility care.

Key Takeaways:

• Egg freezing in North America can cost up to $20,000 per cycle.

• Many women feel isolated and unsupported during the process.

• Going abroad can significantly reduce costs and improve access.

• Holistic practices may support egg quality and overall outcomes.

• Nervous system regulation plays a key role in fertility health.

• Community support can transform the emotional experience.
  

Disclaimer: The information shared on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider before making any changes to your health or fertility care.

Ready to discover what your body needs most on your fertility journey?
Take the personalized quiz inside The Wholesome Fertility Journey and get tailored resources to meet you exactly where you are:

https://www.michelleoravitz.com/the-wholesome-fertility-journey

For more about my work and offerings, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Curious about ancient wisdom for fertility? Grab my book The Way of Fertility:
https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

Join the Wholesome Fertility Facebook Group for free resources & community support:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Connect with me on social:
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Facebook: The Wholesome Lotus

Disclaimer: Some of the links shared are affiliates but this is at no cost to you and can even get you discounted prices!

• Transcript

  Speaker: [00:00:00] Episode number 383 of the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. I'm your host, Michelle Orvi, and today I am joined by Elisa Verani, founder of the Fertility Co-Living, a retreat style experience that combines medical care, holistic wellness, and community for women freezing their eggs abroad after going through her own difficult and costly egg freezing experience in Canada, which resulted in just three eggs.

  Aliza knew there had to be a better way. In this episode, we talk about the emotional, financial, and physical realities of egg freezing. Why more women are choosing to do it abroad and how bringing together community nervous system support and holistic care can completely transform the experience. This is such a unique and needed conversation, and I'm so excited to share it with you.

  [00:01:00] Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. I'm Michelle, a fertility acupuncturist here to provide you with resources on how to create a wholesome approach to your fertility journey.

  Michelle: Welcome to the podcast, Aliza. I'm so happy to have you finally.

  So your whole business and your whole story is so interesting to me. I don't know that I've had anybody really on the podcast before with this particular topic. it seems very needed. So for people listening, I would love for you to share your story and how you got into the work that you're doing right now as far as helping, women with egg freezing and

  Aliza: Yeah, absolutely. So my story started about three years ago. I'm 36 now, and at 33 I froze my eggs in Vancouver, Canada, where I was, born and raised, and. [00:02:00] I felt the whole process was quite emotional, isolating. I felt that I wasn't as informed as I could have been, and ultimately I ended up with three eggs, and so that was.

  Really disheartening also because I had spent close to about what was $16,000 at the time. Now the same process is $18,000 plus $750 per year on storage. So about $20,000, for, you know, a very emotional process as well as only resulting in three eggs. and so. I thought there had to be a better way. there were so many gaps in, there are so many gaps in fertility care.

  I mean, science technology have come such a far way for egg freezing and IVF treatments, but we constantly hear about this, Of grief that comes up for women. And egg freezing at the time had been marketed as something [00:03:00] that was super empowering. That's something you did because you were taking control of your fertility and control of your future, which when I went through the process, didn't feel that way at all.

  There was a lot of grief in it. It actually felt like my back was up against a wall. I was single. you know, I had this a MH level that was kind of like I was told was. Was average to low and it would be really good to freeze my eggs as fast as I can. And then of course, the financial factor came in where I had to pull all this money outta, in my early thirties, money that was, you know, being saved for other things.

  And so I started looking at, at that time my doctor, I do feel like I've kind of done this in a really long-winded way. Is there, do you want me to.

  Michelle: Oh, no, you're No, no, it's fine. I, I actually like a lot of information.

  Aliza: and so, so obviously because I got three eggs, my doctor did recommend that I do an [00:04:00] additional cycle. And so I started looking at options abroad because I couldn't afford to do multiple cycles in Vancouver where it was, you know, 16 to $20,000 per cycle. And I looked at all the different countries in the world because I am, you know, I've been remotely working for the last eight years and I was able to travel anywhere. And had I known that I needed multiple cycles upfront, I think I would've looked abroad to begin with, but. I wasn't informed on that process based on my testing, and so I ended up honing on Mexico for a number of reasons. And during this time I also had gone through a major health crisis, so I had.

  Experienced extreme pain in my eyes, neuralgia. And that meant that I had basically what felt like acid in my eyes, that spread through my head, down the side of my face, into my neck, and into my shoulders [00:05:00] constantly. Every time I blinked and I had quit my job, I had flown around the world to see, you know, every doctor and specialist possible out of pocket.

  Sent around $70,000. I was, my nervous system was like a complete mess. But, you know, I didn't even really know what the nervous system was at at that point in time. And I was just so fixated that this was, you know, a physical issue and eventually, I got, help in, you know, in the US with a specialized doctor, but the doctor in America and the doctor in Canada didn't really connect and my case kind of was super complex and fell through the cracks, which, resulted in me losing part of my vision in my left eye.

  And so.

  Michelle: Oh.

  Aliza: quite defeated, burnt out at that point in time. I started doing things that I rolled my eyes at the year before, things that people had recommended to me. Some people had recommended to me or I had heard about, but I didn't think would really [00:06:00] move the needle on my medical condition. I thought they were just things that would help me mentally feel better.

  And there were things that, We're like acupuncture things like meditation, things like, you know, addressing the nervous system and breath work and a lot of the work that you know you address in your podcast with your guests. And slowly but surely, I started to feel better. the pain starts to subside and though I don't have like some sort of miracle story with, you know, my vision magically came back, the pain did start to feel better. So I decided that I didn't want to do any, go forward with any medical process ever again, if not in a holistic way. So addressing the emotional and the spiritual, aspects to

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Aliza: And, lo and behold, the work that I did on my eyes over two years resulted in my fertility levels. So my a MH rising by 84%, years later.

  Michelle: That's [00:07:00] incredible. That's a, that's a significant number. I'm sure a lot of people are loving hearing this right now.

  Aliza: I had already began these egg freezing retreats where I had started to build something that I wanted and then I went to a digital nomad conference where I just said to women there, you know, I wasn't a plan speaker or anything. It was kind of like an unconference, what is what they called them.

  And I said, look, I've done all this research on, egg freezing abroad. In different countries and the regulations and rules and things you should ask. So how to vet your clinics if anybody wants to attend, like it's just free information. I'd like to share. 25 women showed up of that. 22 women signed up on my email list when I offered them.

  Let me see if I can negotiate as a group discount with the clinic. And of those, half of the women once said that they would wanna live together while doing it. And that's how our group Egg Freezing retreat started. And. Yeah, so that's how it's centered around holistic [00:08:00] health, infertility, as well as these group egg freezing retreats.

  And now we're building something that, as you said, is really, its first of its kind.

  Michelle: That's amazing. So that's so cool. I, I just love the whole idea of retreats and I'll be honest, I think that we don't know anything as far as the power of community, like the power of community heals you, like physically you can really. So much better. And I do think that there are some, studies that were more like group, therapy.

  There's something about groups in community that is extremely, extremely powerful. So I, I love the idea of people coming together, going through a very challenging time and supporting, themselves and each other at the same time. That to me is just such a

  Aliza: Yeah. I think like even we've had a participant in our last retreat say, you know, this was a process that I thought I would [00:09:00] feel. It was difficult and I'd feel overwhelmed with, but for some reason my nervous system is even calmer than it is normally. And it is really the power of community. Like I often tell the women, another reason why I believe this is so important to do with other women is because a lot of these women are single, though not all of them. And you know, this is your first step to parenthood, to motherhood, and you know.

  Science and technology are great. They've come so far for us and they're allowing women to, you know, get pregnant older and help women that have low ovarian reserves also, you know, attain motherhood. But we are women. We are the creators of life.

  You know, we push the human race forward and we can't forget that these aren't just clinical appointments where you go in and you leave and you go in and you leave. And that's the first step of

  Michelle: Yes, it's sacred.

  Aliza: It's

  Michelle: more sacred than that.

  Aliza: than that, and I think we are like giving our power away to [00:10:00] just,

  Michelle: It's like we're sacred beings. having a clinical experience, you

  Aliza: And we're getting so excited about the tech that we're operating in the same system that we do everything else in this modern world, like in and out, in and out. Like just operationally, like productivity. How can I optimize, how can I optimize? When, if we can just take a second, invest some time into this process, make it a spiritual process, and you know.

  if you can't do it with a partner, then why not do it with A group of other women?

  Like what's more sacred than that?

  Michelle: A hundred percent. That is so cool. So let's break it down. a couple of things that you were talking about. We're different locations, going out of the country to get treatment. What are some of the things that you've seen or some places that were really good? I mean, I personally hear a lot about Spain.

  I think that their technology is really good. It is less expensive. but I'm sure you've dug into it a lot more. So, so do tell.

  Aliza: I chose Mexico [00:11:00] for a few reasons, and yes, some of the hotspots for fertility treatments are Spain, Greece, the Czech Republic. And of course Mexico. I chose Mexico personally because of its proximity to the US and Canada, which are some of the countries with the highest, costs for fertility treatments.

  So women can still obviously co-work and like still work while they're, while they're down there, if they choose to. I also chose it because of its established reputation in medical tourism. there's a lot of Americans and Canadians that are already very familiar with Mexico and go down there for other treatments just because of the high cost of medical treatment in America, as well as the wait times in Canada.

  they are bilingual. The clinic I chose is, uses, It, it uses amazing technology. Its standards are, very rigorous and up against the European standards, and so their success rates, I looked at the success rates of each clinic as well, and so that's why I chose this specific clinic. [00:12:00] And then we come to like rules and regulations and laws.

  So in Mexico you can actually have closed or open donors, donors, which means that you can get to know your donor, if you choose after 18. as well as they have really strong, You know, they're very open to L-G-B-T-Q couples, as well as single motherhood. And, they also have sex selection.

  So that's something that only is available in the US and in Mexico. So if you want a family plan, you have three boys and you want a girl, or you have three girls want a boy, you can do that in Mexico. And then, And then also our clinic uses the European sperm bank. So that was something I also thought was important in case you wanted a, you were a single mother and you wanted a donor that was like from a different background.

  And then finally, of course, Mexico because of its retreat vibes. You know, we associated as Canadians and, and Americans as, Somewhere we go to like retreat and relax and unplug. And so the warm weather and [00:13:00] things like that. I did consider Spain and Spain does have very affordable treatments. Its standard of care is really great.

  Its regulations are really great. It has, it's laws and regulations for donors are, they only allow closed donors. So that was one thing. You can't choose, you can't have sex selection there either. Although most countries in the world, you can't have that. The last thing was affordability. And so the treatment is affordable in Spain, but everything else isn't.

  And so we have nurses come to the house. We have acupuncture and massage therapy. We, you know, girls are ordering Uber Eats to their house, they're taking taxis. Things to make you feel more comfortable during the process weren't affordable in Spain. And so I wanted to make this whole process a little bit more affordable, a little bit more comfortable, and that was suited for

  Michelle: Yeah. That's so cool. well, Mexico's beautiful, that's for sure. It definitely has retreat vibe. So, so as far as, just describe really what it is like for somebody who's, [00:14:00] thinking about doing it. Like what is the whole process really from, from

  Aliza: Yeah, so we offer, you know, complimentary discovery calls where you meet with me and, we kind of go through. Where you are in egg freezing, what we offer at the fertility co-living from the discovery call, we then, connect you to the medical clinic. You get your testing done,

  Michelle: Hmm

  Aliza: we invite you into our container.

  So once you've. Signed up with us. We guide you through the whole process from start to finish. And we really wanna take the pressure off women. Like there's so many things you're already thinking about. So once you're invited into our container, we guide you through what tests you need to get, which ones you need to do in order, which ones you need to do, like now to decide if egg freezing is, if you're a candidate for egg freezing, and which ones can kind of wait till after you've, you know, already paid your deposit and you're a little bit closer to the retrieval process.

  And then three months prior to the. Actual retreat. We, we have, you [00:15:00] have, in our container. We have two webinars with our doctors. We also have two meeting greets with your cohort. We invite you into the WhatsApp group so that you meet the other women that will be in your retreat. We give you nutritional guidance, we send you podcast recommendations, and nervous system support so that you are preparing your body.

  Fully, and of course supplementation and things like that. So you're preparing your body fully for by three months in advance to the retreat. And that's because, you know, the maturation, the egg maturation cycle is a hundred days prior to retrieval. And so we wanna make sure your, your body the best quality eggs, you know.

  The medical community really focuses on quantity because they don't feel like there's a lot of control over quality. And what we focus on is no matter how many eggs you get, let's try and make sure that they're all of good quality. And how do you do that through? Nutrition, good sleep, increasing positive emotions, acupuncture, blood flow, all of these kind of more, intangible, intangible [00:16:00] aspects.

  And so then after our container, we obviously, you come to the retreat. The retreat is three weeks long. and so the first week is basically, we do, like you introduce to your group, you move in and we introduce you to the clinic and you start your stimulations. And so a day in the retreat might look like.

  In the morning, the nurses come to the co-living, they do the injections for you, or they can guide you on how you do them if you wanna do them yourself. Then the girls make breakfast together or they go out for brunch together. Some of them are working, some of them are not. Some of them are taking a lighter schedule.

  some of them go do like tourist things around Mexico City and the afternoon might be filled with like fertility appointments as our clinic sees you every other, every second day and. or acupuncture. We have red light therapy in house and, massage therapy. Then in the evening, we either have like yoga or sound bath.

  We have movie nights. and then the women usually have dinner together and then, [00:17:00] you know, they, they go to sleep. So the first week is really, move in and injection stimulation start. The women don't really feel anything during this week. It's like a great week. We have like, we have the schedule quite packed with like, things to do and sites to see and you know, we, we get really, we, we kind of, it's a vacation and then the second week is when women start to really feel the, the, like, the effects of the, of the hormone injections.

  Kind of like. Mentally, emotionally and physically, they're a little bit more heavier, a little bit more bloated, and so we recommend a lighter schedule during this time. By the end of the second week, you're going into your retrieval, or by early third week by the, sorry, by the beginning of the third week. Once your retrieval is done, every woman will have four to seven days in our retreat to fully recover. And so that means all retrievals are done before our retreat, long before our retreat ends. And that leaves room for any complications. Any women that wanna take extra time to rest. Or we've had women that, were completely [00:18:00] fine after their retrieval, and it turns into a one we call holiday in Mexico City, where they're going up a hot, hot air balloon over the pyramids.

  And so that's kind of the overview on, the, the container, the prep towards the retreat, and then the retreat itself.

  Michelle: So it sounds like there's like really three major parts. there's one before the three month prep, right? Just where you're doing the testing. So how long, before the actual, retreat where you're in person is that, is is the beginning to

  Aliza: our deadlines to sign up for the retreat are four months in advance, and that's because we really wanna encourage to get the full experience. You are part of that three month prep container. It's crucial to make sure that, you're giving these eggs your best shot, they are the future children of you.

  They're all, it's also a very expensive process, although we can talk about the costs as well. and so that's why we really, encourage women to sign up four months in advance So we can get them started on that three month prep. [00:19:00] Prior to that, women would wanna have their, you know, their blood work done, their ultrasound done, so they can make sure that they are a candidate.

  Have their consult with the medical doctors, that are, that, that can make sure that there's no like, major objections to, to egg freezing for them.

  Michelle: So if that was the case, they wouldn't really be committed, if something wasn't right. Correct. Like, so, and then my other question is, how do they align them? Do they give them birth control pills? Because I know sometimes they'll, they'll control the hormones that way to get

  Aliza: Yeah, it's a great question. Yeah, so we do use syncy. We do synco cycle sync through birth control. it is a tricky one with people and I like to be upfront about it and, you know, even I've had my personal. Relationship with birth control. we, but we put them on for 21 days. And there's different birth controls that are recommended to you based on if you have PCOS, if you have [00:20:00] endometriosis, if you have an IUD in and so the doctor will go through u. Who go through that with you, but everybody starts and stops birth control on the same day. Our WhatsApp chat is like, you know, our group WhatsApp chat is like, people are talking like if it, some people it doesn't affect at all because 21 days is quite short and usually side effects happen.

  side effects can happen after that.

  Michelle: Correct. It's, it's, insignificant. I, I agree. I'm, I'm not like a big fan of long-term use for birth control. I've been on it myself. I just know that it can like really impact kind of the hormonal, balance of the body. How, if it's longer, but if it's short, it's, it's really like not. Nothing I would worry about, and I'm very

  Aliza: Yeah. So I mean, it's something I had to do for my cycle, even though I didn't do it in a group. They tend to try to prime you so they can also schedule you, in as well. So it's how we, bring everybody together and then we schedule it so that the women. Are arriving three days [00:21:00] before their period starts, and so this process.

  Michelle: That sounds so interesting. And so it's really, it sounds like, obviously you're, you're also organizing everything for people so that they don't have to feel like they have the headache. You're really making it streamlined. and then you're re bringing all the different aspects of like the whole holistic aspect, the community aspect, things that they can do for their nervous system, like really coming together and, and feeling that support.

  so that's, it's a really cool. Like idea, it's really very

  Aliza: Yeah.

  it is. It's really a one stop shop so that women can kind of sign up with us And then they don't have to think about it again. Because I do feel like with egg freezing, particularly women are like, they tend to procrastinate on it because it's not this immediate problem. the way IVF is, it's like, oh, okay, I, with IVF, it's like, we wanna have this child now, we'll immediately know our with egg freezing, it's.

  That that's a problem that, you know, maybe will be a problem for me. And I have, you know, there's always something [00:22:00] better to spend $20,000 on. So we're trying to make it more accessible, more affordable, and less of a hassle for women to sign on and say, okay, let's do these hard things together.

  Michelle: And the planning process for, if people are working, all they'll really need to do is take three

  Aliza: Yep. And they can, they can still, you know, work while they're there. If they can work remotely. We recommend a lighter schedule, but we'll also recommend. This time that they should really take off.

  And there's a couple days that we will recommend that, and then they get our full retreat schedule a month in advance.

  So if there's things they really wanna participate in, like for example, we visit the Frida Ka Museum or we go to Chipotle Park, or we do different things around the city that are like very, like gentle and egg freezing, friendly, like gonna co.

  Michelle: Yeah, I love that. Like freezing

  Aliza: you know, when I egg froze, my friends were like, do you wanna come out?

  And it's like, no, I don't wanna come out. I'm the middle of this, you know, egg freezing process.

  Michelle: yeah, yeah, yeah, [00:23:00] yeah. Of

  Aliza: you know, so

  Michelle: It's a lot. Yeah,

  Aliza: that's in nature, you know, like really aligned with this process. And, so we provide those schedules and then they can decide if they can join or not join us.

  It's really as much or as little as you wanna participate in. And each girl has their own room and their own bathroom if they choose. and so, you know, you can retreat as much as you want into your own space.

  Michelle: And how often do you guys plan these?

  Aliza: we launched last year, we did two retreats, and right now our next retreat is, set for September. So September 6th to the 27th. And we are currently, you know, accepting, women into the cohort. we don't have another one planned yet beyond that, so we kind of go as they come right now. but we'll probably be looking at November and then again in January, 2027.

  Michelle: Is there usually a limit, to how many people you

  Aliza: Yes, there is. so September is gonna have eight women in it, and that's just to help keep [00:24:00] the,

  The experience quite intimate. There's also a lot of sharing that happens. So anything beyond, you know, 10 women can. You're not really giving them the space to share fully all the time because it can get quite long, these experiences.

  And we have a retreat facilitator, and she lives in house with all the women. She also picks the women up from their, from their, retrieval and, she's there in case anything, you know, the, the women need anything at any point. We have a really close relationship with our clinic. It's, this isn't like.

  This isn't a sort of a referral with our clinic. This is like a joint partnership where they really believe and put the effort in what we're also building. And So.

  we're very proud to be partnered with F Integral, not just for like. Their clinical excellence, but just for how much they believe in holistic health.

  And so if anything happens, or any woman, like we had a girl that put her medications in the freezer instead of the fridge and you know, they ubered [00:25:00] new medications over to us.

  Michelle: Oh, That's nice.

  Aliza: everyone from the nurse to the CEO on WhatsApp. And that's really nice. as well because you don't have that kind of support when you're just like a number at a clinic.

  You know, maybe somewhere else.

  Michelle: I hear stories all the time. It's it's crazy. Yeah, it's definitely not a very, hands on, like, it feels very, difficult for a lot of people where they, they sort of, don't get the right. Support or, things, actually, a lot of mistakes get made, so I totally hear the whole process could be

  Aliza: Yeah. definitely. I mean, I left my, trigger shot when I froze my eggs in my trunk on a hot day and it was supposed to be in the fridge and I left it there for eight hours and I called the office and, it was like we don't respond to calls after five. And it how do you not, I

  Michelle: Yeah,

  Aliza: So much money for this [00:26:00] process.

  How is 70, not it

  Michelle: it should be. It should be concierge at that point.

  Aliza: It just blows in mind that you're paying so much money for this and then there's so many gaps in care and these are private things. You know, it actually, there's, it just, it's just another reason. Yeah.

  there was just so many parts of this process that needed to be improved.

  For me, honestly, when people ask me like, how did you, it was like, it was so obvious, you know? It was so obvious.

  Michelle: Yeah. That's amazing. And so have you heard any stories? I know it's, it's fairly new, like of people who have maybe done it in the past or, or felt a completely different experience doing this in a group or a better experience or a better outcome with that type of support.

  Aliza: like I'm really, really happy to say that like every single girl that has gone through a retreat loves it. You know, I just got a, from one of our girls, Literally like three days ago. I can forward it to [00:27:00] you 'cause I'm just so proud of it. But she's like crying, you know? She's just like, this experie changed my life.

  Like beyond egg freezing. These women forget they're egg freezing as well, which is amazing because, you know, health, happy eggs are healthy eggs, right? Like we don't want women to be. So honed in on it during the process counting, you know, the, you see those women who are like, I put my results through chat.

  I put, okay, this, this molecule is counting. And it's like, okay, it's great to be informed, but you also just wanna let, once you're in the process, let. Let it be, you know, surrender to it. And so we distract them with like, all sorts of things, fun things, you know? And, you know, you're in the sun, you're with girlfriends and we, we have our November retreat girls planning, a trip to Korea together.

  You know, we, Yeah. we have a

  Michelle: Oh wow.

  Aliza: that'll be coming out so you can actually see the process of how community matters. these women said that they would, I have discovery calls with women that say they would never do [00:28:00] it in any other way other than how we are doing it, which is great. But once you see women go through it and they were like, this process, I can't believe people go through this process alone.

  And this changed my life much, much beyond what I initially started it as. Yeah.

  it's very heartwarming. We're doing much more than just egg freezing, to be honest. And I think that makes me like deeply. Deeply filled with gratitude.

  Michelle: That's so great that that just sounds amazing. It really is something that's so needed. And I'm like, you know, I've been doing this for a while now, like 10 years and I see people go through so much and how much their craving community and really connection and to, to know that like something like this exists, really, I feel like it's so needed.

  So I think that you just, like, you hit the nail on the head with this, I think it's like a really, really amazing idea. So if people are listening, 'cause [00:29:00] I'm sure people are like, wow, this is so cool. Like, I wanna find out more. if people are listening and they wanna learn more, you mentioned that you have a

  Aliza: Yeah, exactly. So, we, on our website or on our Instagram page, you can go directly and sign up for a discovery call.

  All discovery calls are with me. And so we go through just like where they're at, what their feelings are, what their fears are, you know, hesitations of egg freezing, and we see if it's a good fit.

  I believe in giving honest advice. I guide women to the retreat or away from the retreat I give them. All the knowledge I've learned saying like, oh, but you can actually get your medications in America, so maybe this won't make total sense for you. And you know, I really give them honest feedback. So our discovery calls are really the best way to figure out if this is a, a good fit for you.

  something that, would help you in the process. And I wanna mention like, oh,

  Michelle: And

  Aliza: sorry. I wanna mention like I can get, you know, I know. We, this world is referred to as woo woo, you know, in, in some ways, [00:30:00] and I can get pretty woo. I'm sure you can too. But everything in our retreat is backed by science. You know, the literature.

  And we send it, we send it to the women, we send the literature on acupuncture. We send the literature on, you know, cortisol reduction, red light therapy. So when you enter the house, you don't feel like, you don't feel like, Are these things gonna work? You're confident like that MINDBODY connection is there and it knows that they have proven results behind it to improve my, the success of my outcomes.

  so I think that's really important in instilling confidence in the women that they're signing up for something that is actually going to help them.

  Michelle: Yeah. Yeah, a hundred percent. People don't wanna, like, I think that when you're going through this journey, you don't wanna waste time, you don't wanna waste money. You wanna know that what you're doing is going to bring you value. So a hundred percent people really wanna have that because it's, you know, there's so much time gets taken from so many.

  Women on this journey, so, [00:31:00] so I could see how that can really put people at ease. so for people who wanna find out more,

  Aliza: So our website is, the fertility co-living dot com and that's the same with our Instagram handle. and they can just directly sign up for a call there. Those are the best ways.

  Michelle: Awesome. And I'll have all of the links on in the episode notes if anybody wants to find 'em there. Aliza, this was such a pleasure. Thank you

  Aliza: My pleasure. Thank you so much for having me.

  Michelle: So that concludes today's episode. You can find all of the links mentioned on the episode notes. If you're enjoying these episodes, please take a moment to share and leave a review. Reviews mean everything to podcasters and I really enjoy hearing from my listeners. You can find me on my website@www.michelleorbit.com.

  You could also reach out to me on Instagram, and I [00:32:00] love getting dms from my listeners. My handle is at the wholesome Lotus Fertility. I thank you so much for tuning in today and I hope you have a beautiful [00:33:00] day.

Ep 382 The Spiritual Side of Fertility with Ariane de Bonvoisin

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I’m joined by Ariane de Bonvoisin (@arianedebonvoisin), author of Spirit Mama, to explore the deeper connection between the mind, body, and spirit in the fertility journey.

Ariane shares her personal story from corporate success to navigating fertility challenges including miscarriage and IVF, and how it led her to redefine what it means to become a mother. We discuss the hidden emotional patterns like control, perfection, and self-judgment, and how awareness of these can create powerful shifts.

We also dive into reconnecting with the body, trusting your inner voice, and cultivating a relationship with something greater than yourself. This conversation offers a more compassionate, holistic perspective for anyone feeling like something is missing from the conventional fertility approach.

Key Takeaways:

• Fertility is not just physical; emotional and spiritual factors matter.

• Control, perfection, and self-judgment can block natural flow.

• Reconnecting with your body is essential for conception.

• Awareness and self-compassion create powerful internal shifts.

• Your relationship with life influences your fertility journey.

• There are many ways to “mother” beyond physical birth.
  

Disclaimer: The information shared on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider before making any changes to your health or fertility care.

Ready to discover what your body needs most on your fertility journey?
Take the personalized quiz inside The Wholesome Fertility Journey and get tailored resources to meet you exactly where you are:

https://www.michelleoravitz.com/the-wholesome-fertility-journey

For more about my work and offerings, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Curious about ancient wisdom for fertility? Grab my book The Way of Fertility:
https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

Join the Wholesome Fertility Facebook Group for free resources & community support:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Connect with me on social:
Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility
Facebook: The Wholesome Lotus

Disclaimer: Some of the links shared are affiliates but this is at no cost to you and can even get you discounted prices!

• Transcript

  # Video TWF: EP 382 Ariane de Bonvoisin

  ​[00:00:00]

  Michelle: Welcome to the podcast Arianne.

  Ariane: Thank you, Michelle. Such a pleasure. Thank you for having me.

  Michelle: Yeah, so excited to have you and, um, I'd love for you to share your origin story. I always love to start with an origin story of how you got to the work that you do. I think that, um, in so many ways we're very much aligned. We got introduced by a good friend of mine, uh, somebody who I really admire, Jessica Orner.

  Um, and I knew that as soon as she said she had somebody fabulous, I was like, she must be really fabulous.

  Ariane: Oh, thank you Jess. Uh, thank you Jess. If you're listening, she's like a little sister to me. Um, so my origin story, where should we start? Um, you know, I feel like I am a very global soul. I was born in the US I have European parents.

  I grew up in Asia and I

  married a South

  Michelle: so cool.

  Ariane: and I married a South African

  and. Two of my [00:01:00] best friends are Australian. So, um, and I have a strange accent as you can hear. I don't know if it's English or you know, American or Australian or South African, but I, I think it's important just 'cause I feel like, um, I've always seen people way beyond. Their nationality or their roots or their origin or their language or their religion. And I think as a child growing up in, you know, pretty much every continent I went looking for what was the same in people

  instead of what was different.

  And I

  went looking for, you know, what makes me relate to someone even though they might not look the same, sound the same. And I think it's been a little bit of a guiding thread through my life, which is where's the humanity? Where is the authenticity? And for me, where is the spirituality? Where we are all way more similar than different and we all come from the same place and we're probably going to the same place. And even though you know that, that similarity, [00:02:00] we, we don't necessarily focus on it. We don't necessarily call it the same word.

  Some of it call it. love consciousness, nature, higher power, God, religion, Jesus, that it kind of all points to sort of more of an inner world that is very similar. So I'd say that was one of the three things of my life. You know, I took a few detours. From, from knowing that.

  truth. Um, I took a detour into, you know, the world of high education.

  I had, I have an MBA from Stanford. I sort of,

  I pursued a life that I thought would make me happy externally. Um, I did 15 years in New York. I ran a venture capital fund. I started a business, I, I sort of climbed the ladder that I thought was gonna make me externally happy. Um, 'cause I forgot about how important the inner world was. And, uh, and I got really high up. And the higher I got, the less happy I became and the

  less fulfilled and the less meaning. And, [00:03:00] and I thought something not quite right here because I've been promised this, uh, this journey of, you know, success and happiness and actually. I feel the opposite. Um, and so began a little bit of the unraveling of, you know, what I'd been told, what my education had told, what the mass consciousness had told me to kind of remember and unlearn things that I thought I should be to be successful or to be a woman in the world, or to do what was expected of me or to please my parents, or, you know, we've all been there. And at sort of early thirties I was like, you know, I'm in the wrong job. I was engaged to the wrong guy, or at least wrong for me. I say

  that very lovingly. Um, and I was in, uh, I was just in the wrong kind of identity, you know,

  and it's been a couple of decades of doing the real work, which is to realize that, you know, your inner world is as important as your outer world.

  It's not. That

  Michelle: If not more.

  Ariane: If Yeah, exactly. If not [00:04:00] more. But

  there's, there's a real need to, to really honor and focus and respect both. And so I think my, my work today, whether it's, you know, with CEOs or founders or people who are going through fertility or relationship issues or whatever it might be, is to become a little bit more of that bridge between the two, which is, you know, how, how do we lead quite a heart centered, spiritual centered. What I call below the neck life where there, there's a lot more going on here, uh, than there is sort of above the neck and, you know, make money and get married and drink wine and have sex

  and, and, you know, change the world and, and be successful. But it's like, how can you have a foot in both worlds? How can you really feel like, you know, both are available and both are important. So today, I, I coach, I write books, I speak,

  I do workshops, um, and I'm trying to find any way possible really to, to serve [00:05:00] my, my fellow human beings, which is really the throughput of where I just started to answer this question.

  Michelle: Yes. And then your work in fertility, kind of

  Ariane: Yes.

  Michelle: in your fertility, how'd that come

  Ariane: Yeah, you know, that's, um, it's uh, both a personal journey and also a journey just realizing what's going on in that world and wanting to sort of. Share, add, contribute in a way where, you know, anyone listening to this or anyone finding a book or a podcast, um, might have a piece of the puzzle that might be missing.

  You know, and I, I really feel it is a piece of the puzzle. I was looking at all the episodes that you've done, and I was

  like, wow, how many pieces of the puzzle.

  Are there and available for people. It's incredible. And, you know, one piece fits in your puzzle. Another piece fits in mine, one's a corner piece.

  So, so my journey on the why I even wanted to write a fertility book. Um, so I, I always knew I wanted to be a mom. Um, I [00:06:00] actually felt my child around me even before I felt my husband in my life. And, uh, so, you know, there was this soul that was like, I'm coming through, I'm coming through. And I was like, where's your dad?

  Is there a dad?

  And so I, uh. I started asking that presence, um, to really show me, you know, who's dad. And, uh, and I asked in some ways the, the baby, the soul to, to put my husband right in front of me. And it happened very quickly,

  uh, much late.

  Michelle: crazy. That's

  Ariane: I, so amazing.

  But when I, when I really called it in, it was very instant.

  And I realized sometimes, you know, we wait for the partner

  and actually the, the child is around you before and can guide you way more than you think. So I started just really listening and tuning into the guidance and, and like turning in a bit more of my inner microphone and, um. I met my husband a little bit later on.

  I met him when I was 38. Um, and you know, I, I didn't feel any, any [00:07:00] rush for children. I just felt a desire for children.

  And so when my son, my son happened pretty much the first time we tried, um, you

  know, which is a different experience. So at 40 I got pregnant pretty much instantly. Had a beautiful pregnancy, natural birth, um, and I felt unbelievably grateful.

  My son is 12 today and not today, but he's. 12 years old. Um, and then we tried for another and, uh, we had a very different experience, um, where for, you know, four or five years we tried for a second child and it did not happen. And I started turning over every possibility from the most alternative to the most traditional and scientific and, uh, I, I. You know, interviewed hundreds of people I interviewed, you know, midwives and spiritual teachers, and IVF specialists and doulas and healers of all kinds [00:08:00] in four different continents,

  not. I didn't really realize that it was not for me. I, I originally thought, you know, what's, what's here, what's in South America?

  What's in Africa? What's in Asia? What's, what's in Native America? You know, where, where, where, where is information that is not yet mainstream

  that maybe needs to be right. You know, I had miscarriages. Uh, we tried IVF, we tried the most alternative things, um, and it didn't work. And it, it helped me go inside and kind of make it mean something where potentially, you know, there are many ways to become a mother. And, uh, and

  I consider, I

  consider this book

  Michelle: so

  Ariane: as.

  Michelle: That

  Ariane: As my, my next birth in some ways, and I realized that, that the journey that I was on was [00:09:00] also for myself. 'cause it helped heal myself from my grief and my feeling that we weren't complete or something was missing, or not enough. It helped me heal it to the point that I can speak about it from a very

  grounded place. But I feel, you know, you can be a mother by birthing a business, a podcast, a book, a baby having pets, a school, a business, a home, a farm. You know, there are many ways to mother and to parent the world and the energy of motherhood is, is so present in some ways, and we all have it going through us. So I thought, you know, there is no way I'm gonna keep all this information for myself. And I just, you know, it took me five years to put this out because. I, I needed to be ready. You know, I, I needed to feel, I'm really ready to share this, and I'm really ready to bring this out in the world. Um, so that's, That's where the book comes from. It looks at everything from, you know, the integration of the practical, the emotional, the [00:10:00] spiritual, the relationship part, if there is one, um, things to try that you've never heard of. Um. And a, a sort of very open-minded approach to fertility and. I, I don't think it is the replacement book of any other book out there. I think it is additive. I think that the right people find it at the right time. It's definitely a word of mouth book that I'm hearing about. Um, I've had women find it and, you know, get pregnant, um, which is, which is my joy.

  It just feels like I'm part of, I'm part of their joy now and instead of having the joy of a second child for me. There might be, you know, so much more joy for so many more people. So that's, uh, that's the story behind the book.

  Michelle: That's amazing. Uh, it's so much, um, so much came through my mind as you were talking. I completely agree. Like I think that we're so aligned in so many ways. Um, I completely agree. Uh, [00:11:00] the way I see it is like second chakra energy and, and that can be embodied spiritually. We can have conceptions of ideas, um, so we can conceive ideas, uh, not just beings, you know, we can conceive and it is literally like giving birth to an idea because you as a channel.

  Can work on so many different levels and

  dimensions. So the physical dimension, of course, that's when you really plant that seed. That seed fertilizes, and it becomes like this physical, uh, manifestation. But then you can also have a conceptual manifestation and creation, and that is the energy of the second chakra.

  And that's why I, I'm a big believer in this whole creativity. You know, it's interesting, so many people are missing out because of this misconception that we have to be born creative. Hello? If you're a human. You are creative.

  You know, the, the fact that like if you have to reroute and go a [00:12:00] different direction, 'cause there's a detour that's being creative, like every small thing that you're doing, every decision you're making throughout the day that's being creative.

  Whether. The idea or the question is, are you creating by default or are you creating consciously? So I think that it's just so cool that you were saying that. And also I thought was really interesting how you said, I have to be ready. Well, isn't that how labor comes on when it's ready? You cannot force, um,

  Ariane: yes. I love that. I

  Michelle: baby to come out and that was your baby.

  Ariane: Yeah.

  and you know, I, I think one of my biggest lessons, and I think it's a lesson for many women is I really was under the fantasy and the illusion that I controlled my life. I had controlled so many parts of my life, and this was the first time that I did not control the outcome. And it reminded me so strongly in some ways that wow. There is something bigger going on, you know, whether we [00:13:00] like it or not. Um, and if I could rest into that more than the controlling mind that, you know, was desperate to get something, have something, you know, there, there was a real shift of like, wow, you know, I'm not in control. And, and there was a relief of that. And there was a sort of, yeah, there was a, a real letting go. And I think, you know, as, as. Women, a lot of very successful women. Control is, is a safety mechanism and it's a go-to strategy, and it's a, you know, it's a, it's associated with drive and discipline and termination and getting what you want, right?

  And so control in that. In some ways it's been so positive for so many things, but fertility and the journey I went on with, you know, wanting the second, it was a, a real like. There are a few programs in myself that I really had to drop. The first one was the control program. The second one was the Perfection Program.

  My [00:14:00] perfect family, is this My Perfect Life? Is this my perfect husband? Is this

  my perfect job? Is this perfection program? Massively had to drop. I had to drop the Superwoman program

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Ariane: because I, I, you know, I wouldn't say I was it, but it's like it

  was a little bit of

  Michelle: The you know, you have

  Ariane: it was a bit of the. Badge of, you know, I'm a superwoman and the big one for me, especially, you know, during the harder times, was I had to drop the victim and the poor me. So that's four giant programs, which is, that's part of my life's work. I, I'm a totally different person without control, perfection, superwoman, and victim. So I don't know who I would be if I had still those operating and running my life. I, I'd be a different mother. I'd be a different wife I'd, I'd show up very differently in the world.

  So, in some ways, the challenges helped me see what my programs were that were dominant. And they, they helped me see that the archetypes that I had [00:15:00] stepped into, you know, I, I became a bit of an addict. I became obsessed.

  This was the only thing, right? That's

  what the addict goes. It's the only thing. Instead Of seeing the beauty and like everything else that was around. So I had to drop the addict, you know, I had to drop the judge that was so judgmental of myself, my body, and what I did wrong, and it's like. Do you see? So, I mean, it was, uh, I, I can see it now in retrospect, that, and and I would encourage anyone hearing this to go, wow, what, what's my dominant program? Because, because programs, you know, we are, we are energetic beings. We're, we're we, so. Programs run the energy in the body, you know, and and conception. I is heightened in a non-controlled environment, in a loving environment, not in a judging place, not in a pushing place, not in an ad addictive place. So I, it's one of the first places I go to, which is what's the dominant program [00:16:00] going on? And I've seen it so clearly in myself, you know, that it's easy to have compassion for, you know, what's there in other people. So it was, uh, it, it's been healing. It hasn't been easy. It's been messy. Uh, those programs still show up sometimes to

  bite me. Um, they

  Michelle: practice, right? It's like a lifelong practices. But it's so amazing and I think it's so important that you're bringing this up because it really is like this incredible ability to recognize that

  because we all have it

  just in certain subjects, but we all have that, those kind of programs for whatever it is that we want and don't have.

  And you know, it's kind of like this kind of, uh. The self-judgment, the criticism, the trying to overachieve or trying to achieve this certain goal and that goal can look in like so many different things,

  but the energy with which we approach it is very similar. So even though completely different subject, we're still, we've all been there.

  I mean, whether it's. [00:17:00] A partner trying to make something work that isn't really requited, it's not like exactly like a on both ends. And so it's trying to chase that or trying to find so, and then when you have something and so it's, it's kind of like a energy that we have towards life. But the key thing that you're saying, which I find is so empowering, is that recognition of that.

  So when was it that you felt. That you really like that that switch, that recognition because when you're in the program, it is, um, it feels almost near impossible to even see that you're in it.

  You really become so identified with it.

  Ariane: Yeah, agreed. Um, you know, one of the things that I've done pretty much since my early twenties is I have been very focused on my own personal inner growth. Um, all the things I didn't learn in childhood, all the things I did learn in childhood that I had to earn, [00:18:00] learn in adulthood. So it, it's not easy to do the work alone. Um, you know, as women, we have this thing about, you know, I'm not gonna ask for help, or I'm not going to share, or I'm not going to, you know, get a therapist or a coach or, or, you know, go to a, a conference or, you know, a workshop. I, I was the total opposite. I was eating up. You know, personal development books, spirituality books, like very, very young.

  And they, because I was like, you know, I've been taught so much about the outer world and I still don't quite get it. Um, so I think anyone who, who is able to sort of go, you know, which part of me needs a little bit of love and attention, not fixing, not help, not growth, not a to-do list. Like, you know, throw all of that stuff out.

  Like this is really not about adding to the to-do list. This is about, you know, opening up more to your real and true self. Um, [00:19:00] and even in the book, you know, I sort of, I make it.

  very clear like there's, there's lots of interesting, original, unique, diverse things you've never heard of that you can try that have worked for other people,

  but it's, some of them will have your name on it and some of will be like, that's not me.

  That's not me. So it's more of a, it's more of a journey to know yourself. Than a journey to have a baby or a journey to, you know, understand sort of life. It's more of a, you know, what, what did I forget? Or what have I not focused on? So even though these programs feel like they can be very dominant and running your life, I always say noticing fixes more than fixing.

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Ariane: So even just hearing this,

  you know, the noticing of, wow, like I'm, I'm an addict, or I'm a judge, or I'm a victim, or I'm, you know, in control, or even just the noticing, it's like, like you're more than [00:20:00] halfway through or the, the level of disapproval you have of yourself. So I know for me, when I upped the self-awareness, when I upped the, the noticing. With a really loving, gentle, compassionate, not like, there you go, look at you again. Take the whip out.

  You know, from a, like, from a wow perspective. Wow. They're, wow. You know, the, the wow in some ways is such a sort of, it's a sweet way of looking at the program. And the program kind of the minute you put some light on it, it's sort of, it already kind of goes, okay, okay. You know, there's a wiser part of you that kind of steps in and kind of gently sort of goes, you know what? That, that's been super helpful up until this time, but it's not really helpful, especially not during a fertility period. Um, so it's, you know, you, you can only learn. Through, through loving yourself.

  You cannot learn through disapproving of yourself. [00:21:00] And so this is not a, here are some sticks to beat myself up with. It's like, wow, what's here for me to see and learn with, with such love and compassion? Because there's a reason I called the book Spirit Mama, um, because to me, you know, the energy of motherhood in some ways has been a little bit separate from the. the. energy of a higher power or the divine feminine or consciousness. It's like, it, it feels like such this practical kind of approach. And I was like, both are so important that we need to kind of bring them back together. And there's so many women I've talked to who, you know, were, are pregnant, have given birth, and they, they say that the experience of being pregnant is the closest they've felt to the divine.

  Right. It is the closest they felt to the something, you know, where they're not in control. You're not in control of being pregnant and what's happening and [00:22:00] giving your kid lungs or eyebrows or bones.

  Michelle: Right.

  Ariane: So the invitation is to start that relationship even before, which is wow. Like what would it be like to be in relationship with? That life universe, even before. Right.

  And I think that's one of the messages in the book, which is that we're all, we're all equally spiritual. It's just some of us have forgotten it. And, and my hope is just to go, wow, what's, what's there for me and, and what makes sense in my language and my beliefs or my religion. Um, and I, I, I feel very strongly that it's a, a big missing piece of, of the fertility puzzle because. If, if it, if it wasn't, you know, IVF clinics would have a lot higher success rate if it really was

  Michelle: Right.

  Ariane: control, control, Physical. physical science, science, um, you know, we, we check genetic, we check test, we spec sperm, we check [00:23:00] thyroid.

  We check, check, check. We would have much higher rates. So, so what is this percentage, which is way more than 50%, which. Us as beautiful human beings have not yet realized is a big part of the puzzle. And this is not to say that fertility clinics aren't amazing, create miracles every single day for couples, but there is a big missing piece that I think as humans we haven't quite looked at. I don't know if it's this, I just kind of go for the hundreds of people I've talked to. It, it was an unlock. It

  was a key. It, It was, It was something important. And I just

  go, if it can help someone,

  I just wanna bring it to them.

  Michelle: No, it really is. I think that that, um, you know, the spiritual, the psychospiritual, the, you know, mindset, how you see things that, when you were talking about the programs, the way I see it, kind of like the visual I had was almost, uh, a bunch [00:24:00] of chains or like, um. Like threads that were chaining, you know, the, the soul and the energy, and I, how I see it from a Chinese medicine perspective is we want that like flow, that energy.

  So when we're having these things kind of suck at our energy or take us away from alignment. That's what it felt like. It was, it felt like sort of chains, you know, in, in that sense.

  And what I saw connected those chains were identifications identity. Um, that's what keeps you locked into that chain, is that identify with, uh, the victim or with a control or whatever it is that you identify with that is, um, that's your power, is because you can choose to identify or you can observe once you observe you.

  Have a separation. When you were talking about that, that's kind of like how I saw it. Um, and then you, then you're free, and then you're open to kind of like that source energy.

  Ariane: That flows through, [00:25:00] you know, we talk about the thyroid because it's like one of the master, master, you know, glands in the body. And I'm sure, as you know, in, in what I've been told is that the thyroid is really the gland of, of self-expression, of creativity, of truth,

  of birthing projects. You know, it's also right in between the head and the heart,

  Michelle: Yes. I always say that. That's

  Ariane: And

  so many people live in the head. And

  this is a mental project to take on and to win and get a gold star and succeed. And sort of, there's so many women who have thyroid issues and I

  kind of go, you don't have a thyroid issue. You have a, you have a self-expression issue, you have a communication issue, you have a living your truth issue.

  You have a, you're in the wrong job issue. You're, you're, you're not loving yourself Issue. You're, you're disconnected from your body issue. It's not a thyroid issue. And the minute you see that, I have seen miracles, I've seen people on thyroid [00:26:00] medication, Hashimoto's in three months, the minute they get that, they're totally clear of medication. So. You know, every gland, every organ, every, everything. And you know,

  I had to learn this. I had to learn this myself, which is, you know, babies are made in the body. They're not made in the mind. And I know that sounds obvious, but as women, we are not in awe, love, magic, and wonder of our incredible female bodies. We're not in. We're not in that we're in. It doesn't work. Or they're annoying or they're fat, or they're old or they don't this, or do you see? So the beginning is just a total love affair with your body. That's, that's like the beginning. It's the beginning of attracting the love of your life. It's the beginning of, of being in a healthy body.

  It's the beginning of a fertility journey. Do you see? So I kind of go to, wow, how, how do you get women back in their bodies? You know? I was in my head living in New York with big jobs for 10 years, [00:27:00]

  and I had to kind of literally, you know, get back into the body because that's where babies are made.

  Michelle: And that's how somatic work, uh, works. I mean, I think we try to control through the mind, you know, it's kind of like we're trying to get at things through the mind, but. Many times when we try to process it, when we go into the sensations of the body, it's a lot more manageable and we can work through so much more.

  Ariane: Yeah. And the body's always talking to you.

  You know, one of my favorite phrases is, uh, is the inner microphone, and we have an inner microphone, and it's been talking to us our whole life, and most of us. Are not listening or we've turned it down to like volume two or one. The good news is you can't turn it off, we've turned it down so much so we're not listening about the food or the relationship or the work or, or even what you wanna buy or, or, you know, the, [00:28:00] your, your gynecologist or the fertility clinic or we're not really listening.

  And I have become obsessed. With listening to the inner microphone, and Sometimes I don't like it. Sometimes it pisses me off sometimes I'm like, it cannot be right.

  Michelle: Sometimes it's inconvenient.

  Ariane: Sometimes I'm like, you've got to be kidding me,

  right? Like my inner microphone was like, you're, you're sleeping with the wrong guy when I was engaged, like, I do

  not want to hear that, right?

  Or you're in the wrong job.

  It's like, this is not your path. And it's very inconvenient when you've spent years

  basically. You're

  like,

  Michelle: takes courage

  Ariane: kidding me, right? But the minute you turn that on, you'll choose the right doctor. You'll choose the right clinic, you'll choose the right partner. You'll choose the right, you know, birthing environment.

  You'll choose the right name for your baby, you'll choose. It's sort of, that's where it starts. It's like I need to get back inside because the body wins all the time. The [00:29:00] body will decide. so it really makes sense that your most important relationship is with your body. It's not with your plan, it's not with the to-do list, it's with your body.

  And that is a lifelong journey for all women, you know, myself included. Um, to, to sort of get back in, in some ways.

  And as you. As you know, in, you know, I, I grew up with acupuncture, you know, as a kid, like my mother would like stick needles in me if I had anything going on age six, seven. I grew up with, you know, the qi and the qi gong and the, like, everything.

  That's what was, how, how we were healed, how we were told that energy works and. In some ways for me it's like, how, how do you connect, you know, the, the western side, the eastern side. Like we're, we all know that we're energy. We all know that our bodies are energy. Science agrees that we're energy, we're, we're vibration, we're frequency. Our thoughts are frequency. Our words are frequency. Like I never ever use the word [00:30:00] infertility. It's very low frequency.

  The body. The body doesn't like that

  Michelle: There's an identification.

  Ariane: Wow. Never.

  Uh, it's like the body goes, what are you talking about? You

  know, uh, I'm doing my process. I'm, I'm in this body. I'm healing this. I'm trying this. But that is a word that vibrates very low. Like no one feels good around that word.

  No one

  Michelle: a block,

  Ariane: exactly. It's

  Michelle: it's a do not enter.

  Ariane: It's a, so that is a word that if I could, I would cancel from people.

  And it's not ignoring reality. It's, it's jumping to

  a, a, a Possibility.

  reality. A

  miracle field reality. A

  magic reality, a wonder reality, A, the

  body changes in half a second reality,

  Michelle: just feels so good to think about, even the words that you're saying feel good.

  Ariane: Yeah, but do you see the We fight for reality. The reality is I'm 40. The reality is I have PCOS. The reality is I've been trying [00:31:00] for two years. The reality, I, I've had a miscarriage. I was like, I, I hear that 'cause people need, but, but I move people out of the reality very quickly to, to, it's not even an another one.

  It's just like what radio station frequency

  songs do you want to be listening to? I.

  Michelle: I completely understand

  Ariane: So I'm obsessed with words, language, beliefs, thoughts, explanations, stories.

  Do you see that's very different than the fact is I'm 40. That's a fact. I have zero, you know, frequency. I don't have a push against whatever it's a fact. But the minute the story comes into it, it's like, oh, you just, it's like a, it's like a weight belt in a scuba diver. It's like, oh, let me pull you back down, even though you want to float back up

  Michelle: It's funny,

  Ariane: yeah.

  Michelle: I had um, I had a, my friend in podcast, um, guest. Roseanne Austin. [00:32:00] She said to me, and it was just, it reminds me because she's like, do you ever notice that when somebody says, um, you need to be realistic? It's never a positive thing that they're talking about. Like,

  Ariane: said, but, but just listen, you know, and people go, the reality is,

  I talk, I talk about this in the book. I was like, there's a whole

  thing about the reality is, and I was like.

  look, the, the reality is not, it's, it's not permanent. It's not personal and it's not pervasive. Right. Three Bs, it's not permanent.

  You can, you can change it

  and lots of people have shown that you can change it.

  It's not personal. It's not just you. You haven't done anything wrong. It doesn't have your name on it and it's not pervasive. It should not take over your whole

  life. So, so I talk about those things 'cause we usually go to one of those things.

  We go to the extreme. Or we make it all about us. Right? And then there's shame and hiding and all of that, which again, the body is like, what are you doing? I don't like those [00:33:00] energies. Get me outta here. Right.

  so, so, yeah. And you know, I say, I say this with so much personal experience

  there, it's,

  Michelle: that that's what makes you a good, uh.

  Ariane: Yeah,

  Michelle: that's probably why you're able to really translate those lessons and because you understand it from the inside out.

  Ariane: Yeah. Yeah, completely. And to be, you know, I think that the, one of the biggest lessons I also got was, was to just be incredibly open-minded about who or what or where, and to just always say. Maybe, and I, I still live my life that way, where I go, maybe there's something amazing in this book.

  Maybe I, I can learn something from this person who is totally opposite to me. So, I, I, you know, the, the being in the, the being in the, maybe is another word for being in the, I wonder. It's just such a great word. I wonder like,

  Michelle: [00:34:00] Yeah, it's that

  Ariane: in the wonder, I wonder how this is gonna unfold. It's, it's like, it becomes more of an adventure than a, than a sort of Yes. No good, bad success failure. This is very divisive. You

  Michelle: It's true. It doesn't work like that. Even with the y the young, you know, they're complete opposite, uh, forces, but they don't go from one to the other. They, they ebb and flow and they move into and turn, and so it's a shift. It's almost like a wave. There's no like hard end,

  you know? It's, it, it moves.

  Ariane: yeah. Same with emotions. You know, fertility is such a highly emotional journey, and I would say all emotions are good.

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Ariane: I was speaking to someone earlier who was angry and I was like, I love that you're angry. Like I really do. It's so productive. You're not gonna store it in the liver, you're not gonna store it somewhere else.

  You're, it's so productive. And I [00:35:00] was like, let's fully be angry. Especially as women, we've never

  been given permission and. You know, productive anger. It's like the, the body is great with that. It's like you can hold that, you know, even productive grief. So, so all emotions are so welcome on this journey.

  And I feel in some ways, you know, your, your future child is preparing you because babies and children. Highly emotional, the entire field of emotions is available, and so you better feel them first so that you're not overwhelmed by them. So I feel sometimes, like the soul of a baby is, it's kind of, it's helping you even before you conceive and before you, you meet your, your child. Um, and I think, you know, the two, the two emotions that are so dominant right now on the planet are fear and uncertainty.

  Michelle: Yes.

  Ariane: Fertility, it's like a tuning fork. [00:36:00] It's even more fear and it's even more uncertainty. And so we, we need to, we need to not have those tuning forks really ever get around each other because when we are already living in a world that.

  Is not about love and certainty or faith or kindness or, you know, contribution or growth or pick any other emotion, but when we're already bathing in this, every time we turn on our computers, have conversations, walk outside, read the news. When you put that with the other fear and uncertainty around fertility, it just doesn't help.

  And so I, I always encourage people to go well. You know, we, we have a choice like fertility is, there's an intentional choice behind what we let in, who we let in, what we try. But it includes the power of choice of I need to, you know, stay in the frequency or the other side of the river of fear and uncertainty [00:37:00]

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Ariane: to, you know, faith and acceptance and love and patience. But it's a real choice, Michelle.

  And it is a hard choice because there are, people are going back and forth, back and

  Michelle: Well, many times people don't think they have a choice. I think that that's what it is. It's that, um, it's that awareness that realizing like really where you're at with it and what the programs are, are making you, or, you know, you're kind of falling into

  or identifying within. It's, it's hard to see unless you really kind of move yourself out of it and then you're observing it with curiosity.

  Ariane: Absolutely. Yeah. I, I love, I love the, the question because it, it's not about, you know, how do I feel less sad, or how do I feel less scared? Those things are, you know, they can, you, you can be, you can have faith and be scared. You can be mad and sad

  and feel joyful. Do you see? And we're not told that, which is it's, it's not like one is better than the other.

  [00:38:00] It's actually the allowance. Is the Right.

  thing.

  It's not the control of the emotion. And, and I mean, you, in your position, you know that, you know, emotions are going through organs all the time. And, and every every organ represents a different emotion. And

  so the part that we get to play is how do we be more human?

  Not, how do we be more perfect? How do we be less emotional? How do we be less scared? I mean, sometimes, you know, crying it out for hours is so beneficial.

  There's nothing weird, there's nothing wrong. It is the most healing thing.

  Michelle: I think that that's what happens is that people don't allow themselves to be immersed in fully into whatever it is. So if you feel really sad, you, you kind of like allow yourself a little bit and then you're like, I shouldn't be sad. You know? There's this judgment and then when you feel really happy, you're like, I shouldn't really feel too happy because what if this.

  And it is just this constant, uh, you know, the mind will constantly convince us, rather, and then what happens [00:39:00] is that those are like forms of stagnation or stagnating thoughts that stop us

  constantly. And, and if we just allow ourselves to fully immerse into the sadness, we're actually going to allow it to move through and release us

  energetically.

  Ariane: You know, and I think as human beings, you know, in different cultures, um, there is a real sense of attunement with nature, attunement with the seasons, attunement with loss, attunement, even with death, attunement, with, you know, aging attunement with the feminine body being revered,

  never being, you know, sort of. Disapproved of,

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Ariane: um, you know, in cultures in Africa and South America where I, I spoke to a lot of people. I mean, I was blown away by, by what is, what is not in their world in some ways of a lot of what the things that we've been talking about. But the thing that is most common [00:40:00] there is that they are still very aligned with some form of a spiritual divine force.

  Michelle: Hmm.

  Ariane: And, and it is included. It's included in. When they eat, it's included. When they birth, it's included. When they make love, it's included when they have

  ceremonies and it's like, we're, we're, so, it's not that we've, we've, we, we aren't doing it, it's just we're not including it

  Michelle: we're blind to

  Ariane: of, in the journey of motherhood. It's like a, it's

  like, I, I need to kind of choose, you

  Michelle: Yeah. We, it's just not part of, almost

  Ariane: Right. It's like what? Where it's like fish. It's like they don't know they're in the water. It's like, you know, even if you've never considered yourself spiritual, it's like you are, you are in the energy and the environment of something

  we don't need to

  Michelle: um, when you invite it, when you invited and you acknowledge it, you will see it. And I, I see that all the time. And you actually said something that I thought was really interesting in the beginning when [00:41:00] you're talking about like, um, that sort of like that lock and key, that one thing that sort of, uh, unlocks, which is sort of, you know, that spiritual aspect.

  So. I see this at my work, I've noticed it, and I'm starting to see a pattern with the women I work with. Um, I do see mostly women. Sometimes they'll, the husbands will come in, not always, uh, the majority of of people I see are women. And when they get to a place where they start a meditation practice, a spiritual practice, and they also choose, and this is an invitation that they can do to connect with spirit baby.

  I see the lock and I see it on lock. I see things happening. It is crazy. The signs that they get the, um, specific sometimes to numbers, even num, like so, so specific. You can't even describe it away in any kind of formulation. I don't know. Like it's too vast and it's too mystical. There's something [00:42:00] that is way more intelligent than our brains can ever process.

  And so when you start to see that and you start to see that, like I will see. Shift happening for people once they choose to take that path.

  Ariane: Yeah. And the path.

  doesn't have to be weird, or crystals or wearing white or drinking wheatgrass or yoga. Uh, I mean, li this is, these are, they're, they're paths for some people, you don't need to ever do any of those things. It, it is a, it's an orientation towards life. Or, or not being orientated towards life. So we can call it life instead of spirit God consciousness. 'cause you know, everyone has an orientation towards life

  and for some people it's positive. Life's on their side, good things are happening. There's good people. There're lucky, there's magic, there's wonder, there's beauty, there's, there's all of that stuff. And they will, there will be a match for more of that because that is their [00:43:00] relationship to life. there's people who have a very different relationship to life. I'm unlucky. Why does all this stuff happen to me? You know, things are bad, things are scary. We live in an unsafe world, and they will be, and life will go, yeah, you're right on both of them. You will be

  right. And so in some ways the most important decision we need to make, even with before fertility, is like, what is my relationship to life itself? You can call it source, you can call it God, spirit, whatever. But really what is my relationship to life itself? Because then life starts communicating with you to your point. Then you get synchronicities, then you get signs. Then someone talks about something. Then you hear this podcast, then you read a book. Then, then someone tells you. Then do you see it's. It's like life is waiting in some ways to show you that, you know, it, it's a, there's a love affair with life here before a love affair with your baby.

  It's like that, that is, that

  Michelle: of it. It's the whole, uh, yeah. It's like the [00:44:00] whole picture.

  Ariane: it's the unity of it. And I think for me, you know, I will say it is my most important relationship because when I am connected to that. things work. I'm a better wife, I'm a better mother. I'm a better coach. I'm a better writer. I'm a better speaker.

  I'm, it's like, so it is my most important relationship is my relationship to source life, whatever we wanna call it. And I, I say this in an interesting way, which is, you know, all of us pretty much have a cell phone these days, and we have a relationship to our cell phone.

  Michelle: Mm-hmm. Yep.

  Ariane: We do a pretty strong relationship to our cell phone

  first thing in the morning to

  Michelle: about

  Ariane: thing at to last thing at night, right?

  So our primary relationship is to our cell phone.

  It is not to our child if we have one. It is not to our husband or parents or job. Our primary relationship is to our cell phone. Now, what do we do with our cell phone? We charge it every night.

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.[00:45:00]

  Ariane: Primary relationship, we charge it. And I say to people. How are you charging yourself up? Like, like, I mean,

  this is way more important

  than your cell phone. So how are you charging yourself up? Is it through music, a bath, a candle, water, relationships, dancing,

  listening, reading, journaling, praying. Meditating.

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Ariane: But you must charge yourself up the way you charge yourself. Phone up.

  Michelle: Absolutely.

  Ariane: You must.

  Michelle: Amen to that. I, that couldn't be more true. Like, I mean that's, um, it's absolutely so true, and that's where we were talking about before you can kind of like allow life to dictate how you're gonna be, or you take charge, literally, no pun intended, you take charge and you charge yourself.

  Ariane: Absolutely, and you can take charge of, you know, you can take charge of so many things. I mean, a lot of people are like, you know, well IVF isn't [00:46:00] spiritual, and I was like, wow. I, I mean, to me, I go, IVF is one of the most spiritual things available to us because the conscious choice and intention of wanting a child to that level is one of the most beautiful things that you can bring in. I mean, the, the level of choice and intentionality is probably the strongest it ever it ever is, as opposed to, you know, naturally we hope it happens. Let's see what happens. And I go, you know, you can bless the needles, you can, you can pray, you can put. Angels in the room. You can, you can talk to the belly.

  You can, you can You turn it into your temple. It is not less spiritual. More spiritual, like the whole thing is spiritual.

  Michelle: No, it's true because my first, my very first, um, experience at an IVF transfer doing acupuncture, doing a protocol was [00:47:00] probably one of the most spiritual experiences of my

  Ariane: I love hearing that.

  Wow. Wow.

  Such

  Michelle: there and witness that moment, I was like, this is just a miracle.

  Ariane: miracle. You know, you're, you're around the miracle.

  as opposed to it's slightly invisible and you know, when and where might it happen. I love hearing that story.

  So, you know, it's the, you know, I have a friend who, she tried many cycles and she did a surrogate, and it's like the beauty in the miracle of her relationship with this surrogate mom was extraordinary.

  It

  was extraordinary. It was better than some of the relationships I see between husband and wives.

  Michelle: honestly, there.

  Ariane: So disconnected sometimes.

  Michelle: It could be any way, like, like I think that we get so hung up on like the way things are, but that's not, it's not that, it's, what you're saying is it's really the underlying intention and kind of like the, the magic in the moment, however [00:48:00] that expresses itself.

  Ariane: yeah. And the soul. The soul chooses when and who and how, and even where.

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Ariane: Like even where, you know, and when you realize that that is the case, there's a, there's a permission to go, huh? Maybe there's a higher intelligence here. Maybe it's not all up to me. Maybe I don't have to do anything and I need to go, wow.

  There is a higher moment of connection with the soul who, you know, has chosen to come through you or, or someone else, but will find you or. That to me is, it's magical when you remember that we're not just talking about a physical journey. I mean, most people believe in the soul, the concept of something, right? And yet the soul is not part of the fertility conversation. And so, you know, I mean, in in the Spirit [00:49:00] Mama book, there's a real conversation with the, the soul that you know is. Coming through and, and where and how, and what's the relationship and what's even the karma between you and that soul, and what's the agreement and what's the script and what's the, you know, I mean, I, I go as, as far open as someone wants to go and you, you know, you might kind of go, wow, that's interesting and, and that's good enough. It doesn't have to be right or what you believe. Even if it's just, wow. You know, I'll consider that even that's an unlock,

  you know.

  Michelle: Amazing. I love that. Um, it's just so cool because we always talk about spirit babies and I love, uh, that you wrote a book called Spirit Mama. I think that's really incredible. And so it sounds like it's really kind of bringing more consciousness into the journey and like really, um. Seeing it step by step, like really observing all of the intricacies and also some of the [00:50:00] blocks that you may be holding that you might not even be realizing is there.

  Ariane: Absolutely. It's exactly, you summarized it beautifully. I, you know, I'm thinking about. You know, I went to this temple in Bhutan a year and a half ago, where it's known as one of the most famous fertility temples in the world. I didn't know about this at the time, and there.

  are more pictures of babies in this fertility temple. Um, and it's in the back of the book if anyone wants to take a trip to Bhutan.

  But there was such beauty and such magic and you know, I was like, maybe someone wants to go to Bhutan, let me suggest that. Or, you know, maybe someone wants to hear how, how women. What, what are the, the, the symbolism of bringing in a child in South Africa, you know, and what they do and, and what they do with the earth and the mountain energy and because there's a Mother Earth, right?

  And Cape Town is known as the mother city

  and I mean, there's so much wisdom around. [00:51:00] The connection to the earth and nature and the ground and the fertility of the, the, you know, the foods we're eating and the water. And it's like, I, I, it just makes so much sense. It's not even

  spiritual. It just makes so much sense. How are we not in connection with Mother Earth when we're going through a fertility journey to become a mother? Most people are not connected at all, especially if we're in a city.

  Michelle: Even grounding, um, the, you know, there's so much research on how it lowers infl inflammation and helps the circadian rhythm. It really supports fertility. I tell all my patients and clients like, you gotta earth, you gotta put your feet on the earth. It's really important to do that.

  And it has health benefits.

  It really supports your body and supports fertility.

  Ariane: yeah, absolutely. And the same, you know, get around pets.

  I mean,

  Michelle: Oh yeah. That love that oxytocin.

  Ariane: It's like, oh my God. And you know, we, we, we have a beautiful golden retriever [00:52:00] called Waffle. And, you know, when Waffle came into the family, it, it, I mean, it really felt like, wow, here's a soul

  that came into our family

  Michelle: they pick you too.

  Ariane: He totally picked us in a different way, and it's like, you know, he, he's like my, my brother and him, my brother, my, my dog and my son are like brothers.

  Like it's a, it's an amazing soul connection, right? There's

  an energy that's come into the family.

  You can bring it in before, during, after.

  Michelle: true.

  Ariane: Do you see? It's like none of these things are scary, spiritual.

  I've just put them under the umbrella of we need to remember our connection to a lot of other things that will hold and support the life journey, the

  fertility journey, the relationship journey, which is a whole other thing. The birthing journey, the

  pregnancy

  Michelle: Everything matters and nothing is random.

  Ariane: Exactly.

  Michelle: Yeah. That's [00:53:00] amazing. So, so how, how do you work with people now? Um, I know you do a lot of coaching and then how can people find you?

  Ariane: Yeah, so, you?

  know, it's my full, very complicated French name,

  Arian de. But that's my, that's my website where everything is on there from, um, how to work with me there. There's a specific website that's dedicated to the book called Spirit Mama book.com.

  It's very simple. Um, it's got, you know, a few chapters that people can read just to get comfortable with it.

  It's got the table of content so you can get a sense for what's there and. If it, if it resonates. Um, we also have a, what I call the Spirit Mama Manifesto that we are giving away for free,

  which, um, you know, they're just, they're just, um, phrases and little reminders of just what's true. And sometimes one of those phrases is just like, oh, I really needed to

  hear that.

  Or, that's the one I need to focus on for the next month because I've totally [00:54:00] forgotten it. Or that one has my name on it. So that, that is avail. It's available on the website, spirit mama book.com. And then of course, Instagram. You know, both, I think the, the, uh, the manifesto is on Spirit Mama Official, which is the Instagram handle.

  And then I'm, I'm on there too. In a different way. So the fertility sort of conversation is a bit more on Spirit Mama Official. Um. My, my biggest hope is just to feel like if, if there's something in this book that can help someone, it's wonderful, and if It.

  doesn't help you, maybe it'll help someone you know that's going through it. Um, like I just feel we're all, we're all so in this together that if there's a way that you know, you can support someone or you know, who can support someone.

  Michelle: Yeah, for sure.

  Ariane: It's like a snowball effect. So I do one-on-one. Um, my one-on-ones are a little bit more broad than just fertility coaching. 'cause to me,

  I don't [00:55:00] like splitting people up just in fertility and work or,

  Michelle: But it all matters.

  Ariane: it's like, It's like who you are at work.

  Who you are at work shows up at home, who you're at home, shows up in your relationship, who you're at work shows up in the IVF clinic.

  So, you know, it's not, I would never call myself a fertility coach. I would call myself a, a whole life coach

  and if fertility is the doorway that we're really gonna go through, don't be surprised if I prod in a few other places that just need a bit more love and attention. Um. And then I'm, you know, I'm, I'm doing whatever work I get called, I get called to do talks and workshops and,

  Michelle: I love that.

  Ariane: you know, it's sort of, I've, I've sort of put my hand up and said, okay, use me,

  show me the way.

  Use me, like pick, pick

  me, basically. And I just, in some ways, I wait for a little bit of the guidance.

  I'm not. Kind of pushing it. I just kind of go, I'm gonna be placed in the right [00:56:00] way with the right people,

  with you. You know, I reconnected with Jess, I've known her for 20 plus years.

  Michelle: Oh, wow.

  Ariane: She

  Michelle: an amazing person.

  Ariane: She stayed with me in New York. She was like a bit of my baby sister and,

  Michelle: Oh

  Ariane: and it's, you know, it's just been to witness people's journey,

  you know, her journey in, you know, becoming a mother and it's. It's just, it's wonderful. Everyone has, everyone has sort of a, a, A story that is, that's got miracles in it and that's got lessons in it and faith in it, and, and we need to share it. We need to share more of those

  to realize how, how similar we are, how human we are, how tough some of our journeys have been. Oh my

  Michelle: And it gives hope. I think a lot of people, um, really, like there's so much power in stories. Um, there's so much hope in stories. So I think that that's one of the things that I see a lot with my patients, with my, uh, group, you know, if they're talking to each other and I I, that that [00:57:00] community that happens is so powerful because when they hear each other's stories and they relate and.

  It's incredibly, um, unifying and, and strengthening.

  Ariane: Yeah, Michelle, it sounds like you do amazing things. I'm

  excited

  Michelle: love, I love this work. It's so beautiful. I just love this work. It's just, uh, it's really like the best, they, they always say like, uh, worst club best members because, um, for the fertility journey, because, um, the people are just the most amazing people like in this community. It's just incredible people like,

  and, um, so loving, so like, just.

  Smart, like the smartest people ever. They know like so much about it, even more than sometimes their doctors. I mean, not to say more, but they'll think about tests that, that, you know, other people should be thinking about, but they're just super, super, super sharp.

  Um,

  Ariane: yeah, it's like the, the awe and the, you know, I, I see, I see the humanity in women who [00:58:00] are, who are there, and it's like, oh, there's some of the most beautiful inside and out,

  you know, authentic and

  Michelle: And they support each other so beautifully. Like sisterhood? Yeah.

  Ariane: so true.

  Michelle: Amazing. So awesome. So I will have all of your links in the episode notes if anybody wants to find them. Um, so this way, um, there's no confusion. You know exactly how to find everything. Um, your, your book sounds incredible. Um, I love it.

  It's just such a different perspective and I feel like it's such a reframe. It really is a reframe to look at things from a more broader, um, more spiritually based conscious perspective. So I.

  Ariane: I think it's like, yeah, it's like, it's like taking the elevator and pushing the button up. Like instead of seeing it.

  from the basement or the ground floor or the first floor or the

  second floor, it's like, go to the penthouse

  and let's see, and let's see what it looks

  Michelle: Bird's eye view.

  Ariane: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

  It's a little bit of

  that and you know, every level counts, but it's like, let's look at all of that from [00:59:00] a different and a

  higher perspective. I like the way you've said that.

  Michelle: Big picture. Yeah. Amazing. So thank you so much, Arianne. This was an amazing conversation. Thank you so much for coming.

  Ariane: Thanks for all the, the great questions and the, the, you know, the positivity and the hope and the, I can feel it kind of anyone who's lucky enough to be around you or listen to this. It's

  like you, you're already so much in that higher frequency, and I think you know it. Takes a few people to sort of go, oh, I, I, I wanna reach that.

  So I really honor who

  you.

  are

  Michelle: about

  Ariane: and your work. It's like, it's

  Michelle: Thank you.

  Ariane: thank you. Michelle.

  [01:00:00]

Ep 381 The TTC Story You’ll Want to Hear on a Hard Day

In this deeply moving episode, I sit down with a former client to share her powerful trying-to-conceive journey — one that began with endometriosis, frustration, and the quiet fear that her body was “failing” her.

For nearly two years, she did everything “right.” She saw specialists, monitored cysts, adjusted her diet, optimized her lifestyle, and pushed herself to stay positive. But behind the structure and to-do lists was a nervous system under pressure and a heart carrying more than it should.

In this conversation, she opens up about the emotional breaking point that changed everything — the moment she shifted from “What’s wrong with me?” to “What do you need from me?” We talk about boundaries, reconnecting with joy, meditation, surrender, and the unexpected spiritual signs that preceded her pregnancy — including vivid dreams, intuitive moments, and a powerful final act of letting go.

This episode is a reminder that fertility is not just physical. It is relational. It is emotional. It is deeply personal. And sometimes, the shift that changes everything isn’t another supplement or protocol — it’s a transformation in how we relate to ourselves.

If you’ve ever felt ashamed, behind, exhausted, or like you’re carrying this alone, this story will meet you exactly where you are.

You are not broken.

And you do not have to walk this journey alone.

Key Takeaways:

• Fertility journeys often involve emotional highs and lows, and learning to shift from self-blame to self-compassion can be a powerful turning point.

• Nervous system support through practices like meditation, boundaries, and reconnecting with joy can play a meaningful role in supporting fertility.

• Lifestyle changes such as nutrition, stress reduction, sunlight, and movement can help create a more supportive environment for conception.

• Letting go of control and embracing surrender can open the door to deeper trust in the body and the fertility process.

• Many women experience intuitive or spiritual moments on their fertility journey, reminding them they are not alone in the process.
  

Disclaimer: The information shared on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider before making any changes to your health or fertility care.

Ready to discover what your body needs most on your fertility journey?
Take the personalized quiz inside The Wholesome Fertility Journey and get tailored resources to meet you exactly where you are:

 https://www.michelleoravitz.com/the-wholesome-fertility-journey

For more about my work and offerings, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Curious about ancient wisdom for fertility? Grab my book The Way of Fertility:
https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

Join the Wholesome Fertility Facebook Group for free resources & community support:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Connect with me on social:
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Facebook: The Wholesome Lotus

Disclaimer: Some of the links shared are affiliates but this is at no cost to you and can even get you discounted prices!

• Transcript

  Speaker: [00:00:00] Episode number 381 of the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. Today's episode is one I know so many of you will hold close on the harder days. I'm sitting down with Vanessa, a member of my community who shares her fertility journey with so much honesty, heart, and depth. She opens up about navigating endometriosis, the emotional ups and downs that can make you question your body and yourself.

  And the moment her inner language shifted from my body is failing me. To, what do you need from me? That shift changed everything. We also talk about the practical pieces that supported her journey from lifestyle changes and boundaries at work, to reconnecting with joy through tennis, to building a meditation practice that actually worked for her real life.

  And then there are the signs, the intuitive moments, the spirit baby connection, the lady bugs. The dream her mom had and the powerful [00:01:00] surrender that became a portal into a whole new season. If you've ever felt alone, ashamed, or like you're doing everything and it's still not working, this conversation will remind you that you are not broken.

  You're in process, and you don't have to walk it alone. So stay tuned.

  Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. I'm Michelle, a fertility acupuncturist here to provide you with resources on how to create a wholesome approach to your fertility journey.

  Michelle: Welcome to the podcast, Vanessa. I'm so excited to have you. I am so excited for you to share your incredibly inspiring story and journey. so as we're getting started, I'd love for you to share, as much as you're comfortable [00:02:00] sharing about your journey. 'cause one of the things that I really love about it is the whole, Fact that you really connected with a spirit baby before and you had some pretty amazing things happen. so I found your story to be incredibly inspiring and I know that a lot of people hearing it are gonna feel the same. So welcome.

  Vanessa - 2: yes. Thank you for having me. It's so nice to sit down and kind of recap our journey together and like you said, anything that could help someone else going through this, I would love to do that and share. So let's do that.

  Michelle: Yes. so one of the things that I found so inspiring about your story was really, not just like we're gonna talk about really everything, but, the fact that you had really very significant signs right before your pregnancy. and then just kind of by the way, one of the women in the group, was actually, I don't know if you know this, but it was very inspired by your story.

  and really everything that happened also like your, [00:03:00] way of healing yourself with meditation and some of the things, that you've been doing, really, which first of all was so amazing. because I often suggest this to a lot of people, but not everybody takes it in, embodies it the way you did.

  but of course it took you time to get into new habits and everything. So I know it's a long journey, but if you can kind of like, Talk about really your story and how you got to the place that you're at now.

  Vanessa - 2: So I was introduced to you, through a very good friend. I think at one point you called her, like we had a Soul sister connection. So, she introduced me to youth after her journey and I immediately made an appointment. I remember it was in October and October of like the previous year.

  So think of 20. Four? Possibly.

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Vanessa - 2: Possibly. And 'cause I had all my notes of our first conversation and I remember, I told you like, this is where I'm at. This is my goal. I'm trying to get pregnant. I had seen, A few [00:04:00] doctors at that point, besides my regular ob, I had gone to do testing for endometriosis since I was diagnosed in my early thirties.

  Even though I had symptoms for quite some time, I wasn't the type of patient that it would immediately dictate like, this is endo. But I did have a few complaints and I actually ended up switching doctors and my current doctor immediately knew, Hey, I think you have this. So we did the proper. Testing to diagnose.

  And I knew that going into my journey and, when you and I met, I, I told you, you know, this is what we found. I was told, you know, I might have difficulty getting pregnant. At that point. I had actually done acupuncture for other reasons, in including fertility, but for other reasons. Like for stressand I had messed up my neck as well, so I had already had a good relationship with acupuncture, but not for what I was trying to accomplish at this time.

  So we met, we talked and I immediately started implementing like the diet changes you had told me about, [00:05:00] things like that.and it took us some time. I know you said you always recommend like meditation and certain things that you always guide us to. It took me a little bit.

  I know every time we would talk you'd be like, are you meditating? And I was like, I'm working on it. I think that was the hardest part for me, and it was just the way my mind worked. It was very hard to quiet my thoughts. That was one of the most challenging things, doing everything else that we talked about, like diet change.

  I was like, no problem. Very type A I made my list like, okay, we're gonna swap this out, do this. you know, exercise was always a part of my life, so that wasn't an issue. But, all the other things that you told me to do were easy. The meditation was the hardest part. And when I knew when we were gonna have this conversation.

  I'll get more into detail as we continue the conversation, but there was something that tied into that, that finally made me understand why you guided me and you kept like reminding me to do it. But, I think, you know, in my journey, and I think when you're listening to this, I know it [00:06:00] resonates with many that, there's ups and downs.

  Like, there's moments you feel really motivated. You're like, let's do this. Yeah, and then there's other times where you're sad and you feel unmotivated and that's totally normal. we definitely went through that. husband and myself. You know, he went and made changes as well to his lifestyle.

  I know we had talked about like, he worked night shifts. He even switched to day shifts at some point he thought like, what if that's the, you know, contributing factor to why we're not getting pregnant? So there was a lot put in from both of us. Definitely more from my side. but yeah, that kind of summarizes my journey a little bit,

  Michelle: of course I remember all the little details, so I'll kind of, bring up. so talk about actually the chocolate cyst.

  Vanessa - 2: Yes. So, when I did the diagnostic testing for the endo, I had always complained about this really sharp pain on my left ovary, particularly around ovulation. And, I was told you it's like a little cyst, it'll go away. [00:07:00] But two years went by and it didn't go away, so I kept insisting, I switched doctors. And the moment my current doctor saw it, she said 50 50, I think that's endometriosis. And she sent me to a specialist to test even further. It ended up being a little chocolate cyst and it's funny that was really remarkable occurrence with that little chocolate cysts. So it kept growing over the years, little by little and right when we started having our group calls.

  I had gone for my regular testing and they said,

  Michelle: you remember the sizes?

  Vanessa - 2: I think I always get the measurements wrong, but it was like a 3.1 millimeter, really tiny.

  Michelle: afterwards it grew.

  Vanessa - 2: it had, at its peak, it was about 3.1. because I remember I was sad at that point. it went from like a two something to a 3.1. I remember feeling really sad because I'm [00:08:00] like, oh, this is what they talked about. You know, and this is what we see on the outside, but we don't know how it's affecting the ovary and the eggs within, which was always the concern that I would have a good egg count, but the quality would be compromised. So at the end, when I got the latest testing, right when we started our calls, I would say this is like early April of last year.

  it had dipped down to like a one point something, so I remember sitting in the doctor's office and she said, this is wonderful news. You know, it went down, we can see it here, and this is great. Just continue doing what you're doing. And I was like, this is awesome. I know what I'm doing. you know, I'm doing everything Michelle told me to do.

  This is what I'm doing. I really focused on like our protocol. So it was great that. had reduced that much. 'cause it had never done something like that. It had always grown a little bit.

  Michelle: So, I'm not gonna mention her name, but Jay, who was on our call, had a very [00:09:00] similar situation as you and she said, just in our recent call, that she was really inspired by her story.

  Vanessa - 2: Mm-hmm.

  Michelle: And she was like, you know, the fact that you also started meditating. Okay, so I'm gonna get to that.

  Which one thing I love about your story is about the realism aspect of it and how you're saying that it took a while for you to get into the meditation that it was the hardest. Because it is, I often work with people on, and I'm always gentle about it. I just constantly ask them, are you meditating?

  Every time I speak to them, whether it's like online or in person. I'm always asking that question. I'm very gentle about it. 'cause I'm like, okay, you know, we'll get there. And, because the point is, you're such a great example of that, of somebody who ended up getting into that.

  But it took a little while and your story, I feel like is something that a lot of people relate to. It's not something that happens overnight. It's sometimes you need a couple of months to just think about meditating until it [00:10:00] starts to become something that you're curious about and you start to try here and there until it starts to become something that you start to feel the benefits of.

  So I thought that was a really. Cool. Part of your story, because I do feel like once you started to do that, you started to get more in tune with downloads your intuition. correct me if I'm wrong, that's how I remember it. so talk about that.

  Vanessa - 2: So I always had. let's call it intuition. A little bit of intuition that you and I would always chat about, ever since I was little. But what I ended up, you would always gently bring it up, and I love that about you. It was like a gentle reminder of like, Hey, this would be nice for you to incorporate if you can.

  And I think what I had to ask myself was, how does this look for me? Because I was like, where do I start? What does this look like for me? Is it in the morning? Is it in the evening? Is it a few minutes when you're in the shower by yourself? And it's like, no one's bothering you, right? So I had to kind of [00:11:00] accommodate that and define what that looked for like for me in my life.

  Once I figured that out, then it was easier. Then it was creating the boundary in the space, like making an appointment with myself where I would not get interrupted because I remember telling you like, I'll sit down and something happens and I always get interrupted. creating that space for myself and then letting, my husband know, you know, if I need you to entertain the dog for a little bit, just so if I'm sitting by the window looking out, getting sunshine to meditate and he comes over, sometimes it's fine, but sometimes, like on the days that I was really sad, I just need a minute.

  Things like that were, I created, the space for myself helped. And once I started doing that, I would say it was over a couple months, the last couple months, before I got pregnant, things started to flow better. Things were a bit more clear. There was one last step after the meditation, which one?

  We'll get there. I'll tell you. I do clearly remember this. and I felt that [00:12:00] really had an important part in the process, but. The meditation opened the gateway to getting there. There's one last step for me. There's one last step, but the meditation allowed me to get there.

  Michelle: Amazing. And I remember another thing that you did, which I thought was really, really powerful was create boundaries. And you started to do that at work and you started to really prioritize your self care and also prioritize how you were feeling. Like really tuning in with yourself when you knew, this is it, this is too much for me.

  Whether it's at work or being around people that, were really nice, but just we were too much energy for you at the time. So, talk about that. 'cause all of these things are really like, I feel like are so relatable to so many people on the journey right now.

  Vanessa - 2: Yes, we had a really good support system at work. There were a lot of girls going through similar situations that we just don't get used to talking about it. Or sometimes there's shame [00:13:00] around it because, for lack of a better word, you feel like you're failing. So, luckily we had a really good friendships at work that when we sat down to talk about it, it was helpful.

  But in terms of Based on what I do, it's very client demanding. And the clients, if you don't set boundaries, they do try to sometimes contact you via your cell phone and like, you know, sometimes it's 8:00 PM and they need something. So it was important for me for this season to create a little bit more of a boundary and be like, this isn't an emergency.

  Like I will definitely get to you tomorrow. So that helped me in terms of work. Coming home and cooking. I missed cooking. it was something that I really liked to do. And another important thing that I did, I would say four months before I got pregnant, 'cause that's how I kind of remember it in phases of like I did a little bit more and then a little bit more.

  As the months got closer,

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Vanessa - 2: I really realized, after seeing you, we would see each other pretty often. That, I wasn't doing the things that made me happy.

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Vanessa - 2: [00:14:00] one time leaving your office and it's drive back to my house, and I was coming over to the causeway and I was like, I'm not doing things that make me happy.

  I'm doing everything that needs to be done, but that doesn't mean I'm doing things that make me happy. So it's like, what makes you feel like a kid again? I remember having this conversation with myself, so I reached back out to my tennis coach and I started playing tennis again. So every Saturday morning and my husband would work on weekends, so I would just take off and go play with them.

  it was one-on-one sessions, and it was my same coaches, so it took me back to like my twenties, when my husband and I had reconnected and we were just like kind of not even dating yet. And it was that phase in my life and I felt so happy. I remember driving over there. I felt happy. I remember feeling super happy on the way home, things like that.

  that I really loved. And I remember someone told me like, you always talk about tennis span. When was the last time you played? And I'm like, you're absolutely right. I have not played in years and that's a [00:15:00] problem. So we're gonna fix it. So I started doing things like that of like, what makes me happy?

  'cause I was doing everything in a type A personality way. Like everything on the list, we're checking everything, but what am I doing for myself? I realized that I just internally, I wasn't, and my husband is very good at that. My husband has always been the type of person to have really good boundaries.

  He knows his limits, but he's always continued to do things that make him happy in terms of like, he gets his one hour workout in, he'll do like baseball leagues and he baseball's a big part of his life when he was a kid and I would hear him talk about it and I'm like, I don't have anything like that.

  Not anymore. So I definitely put an effort to correcting that.

  Michelle: Well, that's incredibly important. I think a lot of people shelve all the things that bring them joy because they feel like, until I get this goal accomplished, I can't afford to enjoy myself. But you almost can't afford to not enjoy yourself if you wanna get that goal, [00:16:00] because I do. Personally feel like it's good for your fertility health to do things that bring you joy, to really connect with your heart. and I remember actually a key thing, well, a couple things You had to mention that you were afraid to exercise 'cause you thought exercising too much would be harmful for fertility

  Vanessa - 2: Mm-hmm.

  Michelle: Remember mentioning it depends on your body type because sometimes, certain bodies can handle it if it gives you energy.

  I was like, does it give you energy? And you said yes. And I'm like, well, then it's not depleting you, you know? and that was something that you also increased or maybe it was a part of tennis. But I remember another thing that I found really profound is that. There was a point in your journey and, I love talking to you because it just shows people like your story, that it's not a perfect journey and even what you were doing, nothing's perfect.

  you're kind of figuring things out. It's not like you're hitting all the points and doing everything like exactly. Right. You know, the way, [00:17:00] quote unquote, there's no such thing. So it's a journey of self-discovery. And I think a big part of it is that, and part of it also is your relationship with yourself because there was a point when you were talking about the frustrating points and the points where you're hitting walls, there was a point where you had mentioned something that really struck me.

  And you said that there was a moment that you said to your body, you're failing me.

  Vanessa - 2: Oh yeah, I

  Michelle: That

  Vanessa - 2: that a lot.

  Michelle: I did. that's what I'm saying, like there were the ups and the downs. 'cause there were moments where like coming back from tennis, I felt like I could fly as like a kid again. It was awesome. I'd get a Popsicle on the way home, like it was great. And then there were those moments where it was just me and myself and it's like. I'm sure if you're listening to this and you've been through, it's like that time of the month comes, you get your period and you feel like you know, my body has failed. What we're trying to do all over again, like, here we go another month, you know, another month wasted. What did we do wrong? What can we do?

  Vanessa - 2: Right? [00:18:00] And then you're also feeling bad because, you just got your period and there's that whole hormonal change. So I remember feeling that, Struggling with that personally. 'cause I was just not used to my body failing me in that way. Not to say that I hadn't had other physical challenges, like I was born with atrial flutter, so I would go to my cardiologist like twice a year.

  I was medicated. So I was very in tune with my body can do and cannot do, from a very early age. But this was a whole nother rodeo. You know, it wasn't. Cardiac, it was something else where it's like, how are we navigating this? And like, why do I feel like such a failure?

  and I'm surewe had ruled out that it wasn't my husband. the contributing factor really seemed to point to me because of the endometriosis is what we all assumed. So, and based on the testing. So I also felt like I was failing him. and he was always very kind about it. He never, ever said anything.[00:19:00]

  To that nature. But I know that he would see me struggle and feel like, you know, like, it's okay. It's totally fine. Like, we'll just keep trying. We're gonna keep doing what we're doing. But you feel like your body's feeling not only you, but everyone around you.

  Michelle: Yeah, it's a really difficult. Complex state of being, because there's so many aspects to the psychological aspect of how it affects people going through it. Because I think as humans, we always want to assign meaning to events or things that happen, and it's kind of our nature. And sometimes we can go ahead and assign those meanings, and those meanings can sometimes in our mind equate to like, oh, something's wrong.

  Something's not right with me. what I found really interesting about your journey is that you actually came around from that and you came around, [00:20:00] I think it was through the meditation, maybe doing things that made you more happy. You came around to a better relationship with your body.

  Vanessa - 2: Yes, that definitely improved because I realized that it wasn't so much Like in the fail aspect, it was like, okay, you need something else from me. So the conversation internally with myself became, what do you need from me? What has to be adjusted and not fixed? I don't like to say fixed because there's nothing wrong or broken.

  It was

  Michelle: I love that.

  Vanessa - 2: yeah, I was like, I'm not broken. And there's nothing that necessarily needs to be fixed. We're just not hitting the goal right now. But what's the minor adjustment? It's like when you throw a bot in a basket, it's not broken. You just, okay. The minor adjustment just to make it into that basket.

  So when I would meditate or like when I would have that moment alone in the shower and I'm just like by myself and I'm thi, I remember looking up into the ceiling and just thinking, okay, what else do you need from me? [00:21:00] You know, are you happy? Do you feel good? do we feel healthy and kind of ask myself I mean it could be food.

  It's like, okay, well you know, we haven't eaten this since I was a kid. Let's just get that tomorrow. Let's have that for lunch tomorrow. Or I remember you had also suggested I get more sun. I realized how little I was doing that. So we would sit outside. And get sun more. And I would take those moments also to be like, okay, well what do we wanna do today?

  being a person that plans a lot, someone once taught me this, it's like, you can wake up and plan for everything on the weekend, right? When you get those days to yourself and be like, I have to do this and force it. Or you wake up and ask yourself, what do we wanna do today? And I realized my mom always said this, that sometimes forcing, like you'll know in life when you're forcing something and it's just. It takes so much more energy to do one thing forcefully than if [00:22:00] sometimes you just go with the flow and sometimes that flow doesn't go the way you want it to or at the pace or timing of it. So I had to learn to kind of let go. I'm gonna say let go, 'cause I'm sure you can call it many different things, but kind of go with the flow more and not try to force the agenda because we needed to take a step back.

  We, me, myself, and I. And figure out What else is it that you need from me? Is it nutrition based? Is it less stress? Is it, you know, what is it?

  Michelle: It's so interesting that you say that. First of all, I think that that is incredibly profound and, insightful of you to look at it that way. And it's actually, you articulated something that I think a lot of people go through. I see it. So much in the women that I've worked with, there are phases and some of the phases in the beginning were fighting, you know, it's all of us, me included, you know, for many different parts of my life it's kind of like insert subject.

  Same [00:23:00] relationship though. It doesn't have to be necessarily fertility could be other things, but it's whenever we want something like really, really bad something in our life.

  Vanessa - 2: Yes.

  Michelle: Whatever that is. And at first we fight it, you know, it's this relationship or kind of like journey that you have with that relationship until you finally, or you're kind of like higher self realizes, ugh, I just can't keep going like

  Vanessa - 2: Mm-hmm.

  Michelle: exhausting me. And then there is a little bit of this surrender and sometimes in between, kind of like sandwiched in, it could be a little bit of, Apathy, I just don't care anymore. I'm exhaust like I, I'm done. Kind of like that kind of thing. But then it shifts into kind of like, wait, maybe I can re do this.

  Like, it could be more of a relationship. And then you start to work with, it's kind of like you're,working in tandem with the circumstance. There's a relationship, and with that relationship there's this connection. So the resistance, you're actually [00:24:00] working against. What is, versus you get to this other estate, and I, I see this, I see this over and over again on so many journeys that I get to witness, is that you get to this place of having that relationship with the circumstance and that circumstance being really connected to a divine something.

  And I wanna talk about that. 'cause for you, I was just blown away by some of the signs that you got. From the spirit baby, and that this includes your mom. Your mom felt her. so I wanna talk about all of it. Like first of all, I wanna talk about the steps before that. What do you think got you to, I mean, I know that you've always been intuitive, but what do you think got you to the place where you really started to make that connection?

  'cause I feel like it, it almost seemed like there was a point of sort of separation where you were just focusing on like The to-dos, you know, in the beginning and then like, what do I need to do? Which I personally think is not a bad thing. It's actually part of the [00:25:00] process. I feel like that's one, layer that you need or step that you need to go through in order to get to this other part.

  So what were the steps? What were the things that actually got you where you think that both your mom and you started to make that connection? Spiritually speaking.

  Vanessa - 2: Yeah, that's kind of my favorite part because. My husband always struggled to understand it, but my mom and I were definitely aligned. so the steps before, I think once that intuition was always like it was something I couldn't force. It definitely just came when it came and I always welcomed. It's always happening in an open heart for it.

  I think it's something you can't necessarily go looking for, but it will find you. I always thought about it that way. once I started doing more of the things that made me happy, I think it released the reins on the structured part of the to-do I always see the to-do is it's [00:26:00] very structured and then the intuition is more free.

  You can't add structure to that. You just kind of let it find you. And once I started doing everything. and gave myself the boundary, the space to have moments to myself and I'll give you an example. When I remember the first time that I felt or had a sign, we would always talk about it. And I remember telling you in the office, I was like, I kind of felt, started feeling like a female presence, right?

  No signs or anything like that. I just felt like something very, like bubbly and feminine kind of following me, for lack of a better term. And I remember telling you about it, early on and you're like, okay, that's a good sign. All right, let's know, welcome it. Right? and I always welcomed it, but it was one day I was in my backyard and I remember I was like, okay, I'm gonna go get some, like Michelle told me I was in.

  The dog was out with my husband, like in another [00:27:00] corner. I was like in a corner by myself and I was up against the hedge and I was fixing this branch, like I had extended my hands and I was fixing this branch. I was like, out of order, right? It's my type A personality, like one little corner's out of order. And when I felt something in my hand and when I looked down, I was covered in ladybugs. It was something so odd. 'cause normally you'll see like one or two ladybugs, but when I tell you there's about 10 of them. And I looked at my both hands and I'm like, the only way I can describe, it's like I felt surrounded at that moment by this one thing that I kept feeling, which was this feminine energy.

  And it's like, of course a ladybug. So like dainty and I love red. I've done dashes of red throughout like our engagement session and our wedding, and it's very much something. His first car was like a red truck, and red was always like, synonymous color in our relationship. And I'm like, of course, like a little lady bug and it's red and my hands were just covered.

  and I remember telling him, and I'm like, look at this. And he kinda was like, oh, that's kind of [00:28:00] funny. And, like odd so many of them at a time and I just let it go. But, I love the fact you brought up my mom because I was definitely gonna bring her up. So she, about a month after this dream, she had a dream, right? And she calls me and she's like, not sure how to tell you this, but I'm just gonna tell you, she had a dream where she sees this little girl at like a little coffee table, like short little kid size. And she was in like a little dress, little black hair, kind of like what I look like as a child.

  And She was like coloring, totally distracted. And my mom says that she was just like doing her own thing, like looking down, totally distracted. And she's like, I felt like I was looking at your daughter. And I was like, well, can you tell her to hurry up and pay attention? Because being distracted like that totally sounds like her dad.

  Like we're all waiting for her. Right. I told her like as jokingly, tell her to pay attention. You know, we're all waiting for her. What is she doing? But it was like. you know, I responded to her jokingly, but in my [00:29:00] mind I was like, she's not ready. The fact that she's not even looking at her, she's literally doing her own thing.

  Yeah. I was like, she's there, but she's not ready. that's how I interpret it. 'cause my mom was like, I really don't know what to make of it. You're kind of better at this than me. and things like that don't normally happen to my mom. They will once in a while, but I'm more intuitive like that than her and I, took it as she wasn't ready.

  which led me to the next thing, and I remember this was after the meditation.

  Michelle: Well, you reached out to me actually. Before you move on. you actually sent me a message in the portal and said, my mom had a question for you. something about do grandparents get signs from the spirit? Baby, do you remember that?

  Vanessa - 1: Yes, she sent me with homework. She's like, next time you go see Michelle, please ask her. Because it was so vivid for her. and we talked about it. And I remember you telling me about your daughter, the dream you had with, your daughter, which she mentioned in your book as well.

  And,[00:30:00] she felt great when I told her that. She was like, oh, okay, perfect. She came to me, she was like, she came to me

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Vanessa - 1: and I was like, she's been around

  Michelle: Oh, it's amazing.

  Vanessa - 1: I, I was like, she's been around this whole time. and it was interesting 'cause I always felt like, like I said, it was like a very feminine energy and. Like what I was gonna say, that, the meditation opened the gateway to that. But there was one very last thing. It was after that dream. I think the dream was really what triggered it for me. I remember I was in the shower usually my little time to myself was either by the window in the front of my house where the sunlight comes in.

  Or in the shower at the end of the day. And I would sit there and it was a low point. It was not on the higher points of the journey, but I remember being like, wow, you know, my mom saw her and I can feel her presence. But it's like something that you feel like Augusta wind, but you can't see and you can't grasp.

  And I remember just looking up at the ceiling and just being, like talking to her and saying, what do you need from me? [00:31:00] Like, what do you need from me? To come to this earth, like to come to me, like, what do I have to do? the only word I can best use to describe it is that final surrender. Like I was the type of person that really needed to have control over things.

  I still kind of am, but it was the last thing where I was like, I don't have control over this. And it was the last surrender, I think in the journey where This is on your time. Like, what do you need me to do? What is gonna make you want to join us here? Like, I know you're here, but, but down here physically on this earth, what do you need from me?

  And I remember that was like the last surrender, like the last thing where I was like, okay, whatever. You know, what do you need from me? And. I take it. Looking back now, it was, I think for me, knowing my inner most self, it was a lesson I had to learn because since she's gotten here, [00:32:00] I definitely learned that you need to surrender.

  I'm just kidding. Like, I don't have control over this. This is what we're going with it. Right? She's controlling the narrative and it was kind of a lesson I had to learn. I was like, she was definitely teaching me a lesson. For, it was kind of the beginning of like, you're gonna need this in motherhood.

  And it was that last little shred that I was holding onto. and it was definitely like a very, I tell my husband that, I think it's so personal, it yourself that, For me, that was, I think, the last bit, the lesson I had to learn, like everything I had applied, everything that you and I had talked about, we had been working together for months at that point.

  I had even told myself, 'cause I was at a low point here and I said, I looked at my friend, the one I mentioned in the beginning. I said, you know what, if we're not pregnant by the next month, let's just go to Mexico. Like that's what we're gonna do. We're just gonna go to Mexico and we're gonna have margaritas and we're gonna have tacos.

  Michelle: And drink margaritas.

  Vanessa - 1: And we booked the [00:33:00] trip. We did, we did book the trip with the

  Michelle: I remember.

  Vanessa - 1: Like that's it. You know, if this month I'm not pregnant, next month we're gonna Mexico, and we did it. So, I mean, this spirit baby had a totally different plan and she controlled the narrative.

  Michelle: As usual. and I remember one other thing. One time you slept on the couch. I dunno if it was, sometimes you'll take naps with the dog or you fall asleep at night on the couch. I remember, Do you know what I'm gonna be talking about right now?

  Vanessa - 1: a little bit, but you might remember better than me right now.

  Michelle: Okay, so you slept on the couch and it was towards the end of this journey. It was when you started to get more communication with a baby and you always felt female energy. You fell asleep. You were like in this twilight state in between wake and sleep, and you heard like right in your ear, mommy, and it was a girl's

  Vanessa - 1: [00:34:00] yes. Wow. You just gave me goosebumps. You're so right. I kind of forgot about that. Wow. I always say right now my brain is at 75% best,

  Michelle: Which is normal.

  Vanessa - 1: you're so right.

  Michelle: You're a new mom.

  Vanessa - 1: I was falling asleep. I was on the couch. 'cause sometimes, like we don't agree on temperature and our bed was really small. Our house was really small.

  So I went ahead and I went with the dog to the living room and we had way more space. So I was cuddling with the dog. I was in and out. I was starting to fall asleep and clear as day, like you said, I heard a little, like a little girl's female voice say, mommy. Yeah, very. I would say that happened about three months before.

  It was right before I had that surrender moment. Yeah. Where I was like, okay, you're here, but like, what? What do you want and need from me?

  Michelle: It's amazing. Just incredible. But it is that surrender. It's so interesting how. Surrender because the whole [00:35:00] idea of really control and why we choose to control things is because we feel a lack of control. We feel a lack of strength or a lack of power. it's perspective, and perception.

  that we have a lack of power. We actually have more power. We don't realize we have, but I believe personally, if you, in order to access that power, you have to surrender.

  Vanessa - 1: Yes.

  Michelle: When you surrender, it's kind of like an oxymoron. You think that it's going to make you powerless, but in fact it's gonna do the exact opposite.

  That's where you find your power, because then you realize that there's this greater power outside of us, that it's not just up to us. And that's when you tune into

  Vanessa - 1: Mm-hmm.

  Michelle: And access it, you're able to access it through the portal of surrender. I wanna actually, I just kind of thought about now it's like a portal, surrenders a portal to that power.

  And I think that when you realize that, that's when you feel actually [00:36:00] more empowered than you thought you would, you know, before that. And I remember you got on the call, so we did, our group calls and you got on the call. That was when, you had mentioned you were really excited because I think there was one call before and then I don't know if it was the first one that we were on, but then you, came on and then you said that your cyst shrunk.

  Vanessa - 1: Yes, our first

  Michelle: And then I had another person on the call who she also had a similar circumstance, so she was just amazed by her story. And I think that. That was one of the reasons why it was so powerful. And then little did you know, you were pregnant and then I remember you were really touched by my daughter's story.

  Vanessa - 1: Yes. I, when I read your

  Michelle: it in the book.

  Vanessa - 1: I started crying. I was sitting in the living room by myself and I started crying because my mom had had that dream. And I was like, wow, okay. this [00:37:00] is very powerful. And that call. It was really funny that first call that we had, I had just gotten the test results that the SIS had gotten smaller like a day or two before.

  So that week moved, very fast. I got those test results. We had the call. I was like, guys, look, we have good news. It sis got smaller. You know, everything's paying off. This is great. And I had gone in to do that ultrasound. for those test results. So we did a full ultrasound, we did a transvaginal ultrasound.

  We didn't do a, a pelvic one, but usually they would use that other one to take a better look at the cyst. So I remember telling the tech, I turned to her and I didn't fully think through my humor, but I was like, is there anything else there? And she says, no. Should there be? And I'm like. No, we're trying to get pregnant, so you know, if you saw anything else you can tell me.

  And she's like, no, I don't see anything else. I'm like, okay, that's fine. And I didn't make much else of it. [00:38:00] Sat with my doctor, looked through it, you know, was told this has got smaller. So I went home feeling happy, shared it with you guys about a day or two later that Friday, I was home alone. My husband was on his last night shift, I believe.

  And. I had no symptoms. It was just something that I was like brushing my teeth by myself. It was just me and the dog and I look in the mirror and at that point I know most of you listening, trying probably have you just stack up on pregnancy tests. At this point. I had an unopened box and I went into the linen cabinet and grabbed them and I was like, I'm just gonna take a pregnancy test.

  No symptoms or anything. I wasn't even late 'cause technically would've been like four more days to technically be late, and I kept brushing my teeth. I remember I looked down, I wasn't even recording on my phone or anything. I looked down and it was bright, like solid [00:39:00] lines, and I was like, okay.

  I didn't expect, I was like, one more. Let's just try one more. Let's go for the clear blue, right? Because it was the little paper strip ones. I'm like, let's go for the clear blue. And it was positive and I was like, lemme try one more. And then positive and like, this is at night. So I was like, okay. But then I can't tell anybody.

  I was like, he's not home yet. I'll wait till the morning. And in the morning I woke up, I took another test just to make sure. So it was like a, for sure, you know, the lines were there. But I had just been to the doctor and I had just talked to you guys and the doctor hadn't seen anything on the ultrasound, but it was too soon.

  She was too little. So I had to confirm it with a blood test after that, because again, I was going to Mexico the next week. Yeah. So this spirit baby said, well, we're all going to Mexico.

  Michelle: Yeah, I'm coming with

  you.

  Vanessa - 1: we're all going.

  Michelle: You bring me too. And then what's really crazy is. You popped into my mind. This happens a lot. I guess I don't technically call myself intuitive, but over time I've become, you [00:40:00] popped into my mind. I don't know why I was like, so when's the next gonna get pregnant?

  It was just like, kind of like it was a feeling that I had around this time, and sometimes I'll almost find myself getting impatient sometimes when I get impatient with the people I'm working with, they get pregnant. it's almost like this kind of I feel like it's time.

  I'm like, it's time for her

  Vanessa - 1: Well, do you remember the session we had before the group call, like our in-person acupuncture session? Do you remember what I asked you?

  Michelle: No,

  Vanessa - 1: I remember I was kind of on a low and I came in. At the end, I was like, Michelle, what do you think? Do you think I should just like get pricing for IUI and IVF and see what like the next, like do we keep going this way?

  Do we up it to, you know, do IUI and IVF, which I had already talked to the doctors about, and I remember you were like conflicting. You were like, let's keep going a little further. Right? And my OB had told me, you haven't been trying for that long. Just keep going, you know? make the appointment with the [00:41:00] fertility doctor.

  For, I think she said like six months from now and keep going. And then I talked to you and you were like, I think, you know, keep going. And you had did something in that session that was so, I don't know if you even remember, but I remember, I went to lay down on the table and there was one of your art pieces behind me and there was light coming in through the window.

  Do you remember? And there were these little dots, like a layered light dots. Reflecting on your art, and you said, can I get your phone and take the photo? And I forget what it was that you said. You're like, this is very like, it sometimes it's very symbolic or something. And you took my phone.

  You took the photo. I still have it. And I remembered that and I was

  Michelle: Maybe we're gonna use, let's use that photo for this. Maybe that's what we should use

  Vanessa - 1: send it to you. And I

  Michelle: It'll only make sense for people if they are listening to this.

  Vanessa - 1: Yes. And it was something like, it was a part of the art that it was like near the hands. I'll send it to you. But yeah, it was like layered dots. And I remember [00:42:00] that was in the beginning of the session, end of the session. I asked you that and you were like, I feel like we're doing well. I feel like let's keep going.

  Let's stay positive. but let's get the pricing anyways. Right? So I had asked for all that pricing. Fast forward to the following week when we had the group call. So I got the pricing back for IUI and IVF Thursday during the day I tested positive Friday night. and I had just told my

  Michelle: happens a lot.

  Vanessa - 1: yeah, I had just told my husband like, so this is what we're looking at, you know, let's start.

  Financially planning on what we wanna do and when we wanna try this, if we do. And then Friday, it's like he probably didn't even get a chance to process the thought. He, I remember when I told him, he was like, are you, are you joking right now? Like you just got an ultrasound? They didn't see anything. We just got pricing.

  I remember him saying like, the positive tests were on the table. He's like, are you sure? Like, what am I looking at? And I'm like, oh, I'm pregnant. He's like, are you sure? Because we were so mentally like. Just trying to run the [00:43:00] marathon of like, we're gonna keep going. Right? This is gonna take a while longer, but she decided otherwise,

  Michelle: Yeah, it's what happens. And so what's crazy is that I kind of had a sense that I was going to hear from you soon. It just was a feeling. It was also like the things that you were saying, the signs, I'm like, ah, I just feel like she's right around the corner. It felt like that. And then you had sent me a message. On the portal and you said, oh, I think I'm with, you know, your friend and you were with your friend. I don't wanna say the name. And so, can you call us? and I was with my daughter, the girl, you know, the daughter that was in the book, the story that made you cry crazy enough. Nothing's an accident.

  Everything kind of works out how it's supposed to. And, and I get, I call. I call and it's funny 'cause my daughter hates when I call on the phone, 'cause she likes to listen to her music and it's disruptive, but. She was very engaged in this conversation, and that was when you told me, and I knew [00:44:00] that that's what you were gonna tell me.

  And it was just random. I mean, not random, but, amazingly she was with me on the call and she, in some way you really connected with her through the story. So it's just so wild how like there's so much intelligence at play and it's like, you know, people's different stories interweave and connect.

  People, and this is why I find the podcasting so powerful. 'cause you get stories and there's people listening right now that are meant to hear this story right at this moment. Just like you were meant to hear or to read. Story right when you did and it just, everything happens and unfolds. Especially, I feel like it happens more synchronicity happens more when you surrender, when you get into the portal of surrender and it was just pretty wild, but it was magical.

  I like it was absolutely magical.

  Vanessa - 1: And I always say it just felt like surrendering because I would say the month before. In full [00:45:00] transparency, I was kind of losing it, you know, I felt like I was losing myself, but I, it was losing the structure that I wanted to have. So I remember, like you said, I started going back I was doing tennis and I was going to the gym in the morning, which I love to do.

  I love my gym and I love the friends I go with. And, we had, there's this one instructor, the gym owner, he is really like, he comes by, he's like, come on. Like, let's, you know, push harder. And I was like. Please don't yell at me today. I'm gonna cry because, I was so tapped out. I felt like the load I was carrying was so much.

  And he came like, yeah, okay. And he is like, let's go, like, pick up heavier. And I just started crying. Michelle lost it at the gym. I was like, of all the places. And he looks at me and he's like, this, ex MMA fighter. He looks at me, he's like, what's going on? And I was like, I'm trying to get pregnant and nothing's working.

  and he's like. you're a mentally strong girl. Like, but look what's happening. You know, you gotta let it go. And he said, you gotta get, you know, you gotta give it to God. you gotta let it go. You gotta let it go [00:46:00] and be here for yourself and try to be happy while you're here.

  And it's hard. He is like, I know it's hard. There's a lot of girls in this gym that have also gone through it, and then you see them come with the stroller, like at the 6:00 AM class. I broke down at the gym. I had my regular cardiologist appointment, which mind you, this cardiologist has seen me since my mom was six months pregnant with me and I just turned 35.

  I went with to him the day before yesterday actually, with the baby. So. He's like an uncle at this point. And I go for my regular checkup and I break down there too. And he's like, what's going on? You know, why are you breaking down crying? And I remember he said, have your husband call me, right? I was like, I just don't know what the next step is.

  Like I don't know what to do. And he has two girls of his own. And I remember he's like, you know, he's like, I've seen all sorts of babies. 'cause he's pediatric, but he still has me as a patient. He's great. And he talked to me like a dad. Right. And there was another place I also broke down.

  I didn't break down at [00:47:00] tennis, but I, there was another place also. I was just like that last month I was so emotional and I felt like, then came that moment in the shower, I was like, I need to just like the surrender moment. 'cause I think I was crying because I was holding on to so much. was so much, and I think her lesson to me was like, you don't need to hold onto that.

  You just, you gotta let it go.

  Michelle: And it's almost like you had a cleanse.

  Vanessa - 1: Yeah.

  Michelle: Like a strong release. And it's like shortly after that release where you like acknowledge how you felt and you really, like you faced it, that's when the transformation happened.

  Vanessa - 1: Yeah. That last month. On a week by week basis was really intense because I can tell you the week alone where like I talked to you guys, I saw the doctor, then I tested positive, and it was like every week was a lot. it was very emotionally heavy, but it was great and wonderful and it needed to happen the way it needed to happen.[00:48:00]

  When I look back at it

  Michelle: And now,

  Vanessa - 1: well,

  Michelle: now, you have your girl.

  Vanessa - 1: yes, so again, She is something else. my pregnancy was, again, you know, it was a lesson learned. 'cause my pregnancy, she was great. I struggled a little bit more, so we were monitoring me for preeclampsia pretty early on. And we had a team of doctors, so I had my doctor, I had two card.

  I had, the maternal fetal specialist on board as well. We were all monitoring week by week. I actually went to the OBER two times, if not three, if I remember, during the pregnancy for high blood pressure. So it wasn't easy, but that's surrendering taught me. It's like we're just gonna go with it.

  And I would go to my appointment on Friday and be like, we might be having a baby today. We might not. So.

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Vanessa - 1: It helped me a lot with the pregnancy and then she decided, well, she didn't, but the team decided to either induce or have a C-section at 37 weeks, so I ended up having her via a [00:49:00] C-section 37 weeks and a day because I couldn't decide what I wanted to do.

  I didn't know if I wanted to be induced or have a C-section, but based on all of my health markers, we decided C-section was safer and. It was great. The recovery went really well. She did really well and I remember the moment I saw her, it was like, that's a little face that's, you know, I've been carrying this whole time.

  But it also felt like I've known you since forever.

  Michelle: Wow, that's amazing.

  Vanessa - 1: and I remember looking at my husband and I was like, I will pick her over you every single time in every lifetime. Like, I like that mother bear. It was like, instinctually just happened and I was in, still in the operating room, and it just instinctually.

  I was like, she's mine. That's mine.

  Michelle: That's so cute. and, you sent me pictures of her and I thought it was so cute. So cute. And then there was one that was so funny 'cause because you always had a little spice You always told I never [00:50:00] fully saw that, but I know what you mean. Like, it's like that strong spirited personality.

  You're like, you always told me that you felt that way and that you had that spice. There was a picture of her and you're like, she has that and there's this look she was giving. And I was like, this is perfect.

  Vanessa - 1: Yeah, and it's funny 'cause that picture was actually, there was a longer video where it wasn't just an instant, like she was looking at us like, the customer service here sucks. Like that was her little personality. Like the milk is taking forever. Like that is heating up the milk. The customer service here, you know.

  she is definitely the best of both of us. She's really smiley like him, and then she has that spice from me and everything comes around in life. I definitely look at my mom and I'm like, wow, how did you survive such a spicy child? And now

  Michelle: Yes.

  Vanessa - 1: my mom's like, yeah, that definitely, like, we're angry, crying now.

  So she definitely gets a bit of that. From me. 'cause he's not like [00:51:00] that. And she really has taught me that surrendering lesson was I am still learning. I'm still learning. When I think I got it together, everything's planned. And she's like, yeah, you think we're gonna go to the park outfit change.

  Michelle: totally. it's a lifelong process. It's a lifelong practice. I mean, it really is. So, wow. This is, your story is incredible and, and not just your story, but also your. Perspective and how you can kind of go back and look at it in such a poetic way because, you know, people can look at things, there's circumstances happen and everybody can perceive it differently.

  And some people look at it as more layered and in depth and having meaning. and I love the way you tell stories. I really think that it's incredibly inspiring.

  Vanessa - 1: thank

  Michelle: thank you so much for opening up and sharing your incredible story. I'm sure there's so many people listening to this that may actually have this episode on repeat, for [00:52:00] literally like moments where they feel down just to get some hope.

  So thank you for providing that for the community.

  Vanessa - 1: Thank you. I've definitely been there. The other episodes helped me significantly, so I just, you know, I've been there. I understand. It's a long journey, but it's definitely worth it.

  Michelle: Thank you.

  ​[00:53:00]

Ep 380 The Fertility Exercise That Supports Hormones, Blood Flow, and Ovulation with Marta Han and Zsofia Jamieson

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I am joined by Marta Han and Zsofia Jamieson, founders of The Fertility Class @thefertilityclass and teachers of the Aviva Method, a pelvic centered movement practice designed to support hormonal balance and fertility.

In this conversation, we explore how targeted rhythmic movement can improve circulation to the reproductive organs, support communication between the brain and ovaries, and help regulate the menstrual cycle. Marta shares her personal story of recovering from hypothalamic amenorrhea after years of overtraining and undernourishing her body, while Zsofia talks about overcoming PCOS symptoms and restoring her cycles through fertility focused movement.

We also discuss how gentle, intentional movement can reduce pelvic stagnation, calm the nervous system, and create a sense of safety in the body, which is essential for ovulation and reproductive health. Marta and Zsofia explain how the Aviva Method works, why it is different from traditional workouts, and how many women notice improvements in ovulation, cervical mucus, PMS symptoms, and overall hormonal balance.

If you are trying to conceive naturally, navigating irregular cycles, or simply looking for a supportive way to reconnect with your body and reproductive health, this episode offers a powerful perspective on movement as medicine for fertility.

Key Takeaways:

• The Aviva Method uses rhythmic pelvic focused movement to improve blood flow to the uterus and ovaries and support reproductive health.

• Gentle and intentional movement can help regulate the nervous system and create the sense of safety the body needs for ovulation.

• Pelvic stagnation from long hours of sitting and chronic stress may impact fertility and hormonal balance.

• Movement that targets the pelvic region can support communication between the brain and reproductive organs.

• Many women report improvements in cycle regularity, ovulation timing, PMS symptoms, and cervical mucus after consistent practice.
  

Disclaimer: The information shared on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider before making any changes to your health or fertility care.

Ready to discover what your body needs most on your fertility journey?
Take the personalized quiz inside The Wholesome Fertility Journey and get tailored resources to meet you exactly where you are:

 https://www.michelleoravitz.com/the-wholesome-fertility-journey

For more about my work and offerings, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Curious about ancient wisdom for fertility? Grab my book The Way of Fertility:
https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

Join the Wholesome Fertility Facebook Group for free resources & community support:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Connect with me on social:
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Disclaimer: Some of the links shared are affiliates but this is at no cost to you and can even get you discounted prices!

• Transcript

  Speaker: [00:00:00] Episode number 3 79 of the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. I'm your host, Michelle Orbitz, and today's guest is one of those voices that instantly shifts the energy in the room. You may know her as Chia Mosley, the women behind pregnancy over 40. And her story is both powerful and deeply grounding.

  After being told directly and indirectly that motherhood was no longer in the cards, chia naturally conceived at 46, welcomed her daughter at 47. And completely challenge the narrative. So many women are fed about age, fertility, and most importantly, what is possible in this conversation? We go far beyond the headline.

  Chia shares the real origin story, what changed for her in her early forties, what it felt like to experience loss, and then conceive again. Why she decided to share her pregnancy publicly as a way of choosing courage over fear. [00:01:00] We also talk about how medical messaging can either collapse a woman's hope or support her physiology, the mindset shift she calls being willing to be lucky, and why she believes we need real research on the common denominators among women who conceive naturally after 40.

  We also get into practical and holistic factors that matter, like movement. Food, environmental toxins, emotional boundaries, and spirituality. Plus my own perspective after being asked by chia on how acupuncture supports fertility through blood flow, digestion, and nervous system regulation. If you've ever felt exhausted by the fertility journey, discouraged by lab numbers like a MH or tired of being reduced to statistics, this episode is for you.

  Michelle: [00:02:00] Welcome to the podcast, g. I'm so excited to have you on.

  Cha Mosley: I am excited to be here. You have no idea.

  Michelle: So we just had a really nice pre-talk and I've been following you for a little while on Instagram. Just love your story and I found it so inspiring and I really love bringing in inspiring guests on the podcast because I know my listeners need a lot of hope. It's the ups and downs of the fertility journey.

  With that I would love to get your origin story so people can know, like really your amazing, inspirational story,

  Cha Mosley: Okay, how far back to the origin do we wanna go?

  Michelle: everything that's applicable to,

  Cha Mosley: I feel like everyone, every [00:03:00] person's life from beginning to end is leading them to a place. But I'll fast forward and I'll start to, when I got dumped at the age of 41. By, I had been in a relationship with a man who was very upfront that he never wanted to get married and he never wanted to have children. And we had started dating when I was 38 and I really liked him and we did genuinely like each other. We had a really good friendship. We traveled and it was a lot of fun, but I justified this relationship by saying I'm already 38. I've never had trouble dating. I've never had trouble meeting men. So I said if I really wanted to have a family, I would've done it already. That's how I dismissed and made that right. And then my mom and dad actually did not get legally married until, I was wanna say 28 years old.

  Michelle: Oh wow.

  Cha Mosley: Yeah. My mom and dad were just together. Okay.

  Michelle: so cool. I

  Cha Mosley: Yeah I really feel like they showed me the [00:04:00] true definition of marriage because for two people who could have left at any time, they sure did ride it out through some things.

  And so I was raised in a family where I didn't see that the actual ceremony of marriage was necessary for true commitment. And I know that this is not for everyone, but this is what I was raised in. And so this is how I justified that relationship. I don't believe that you actually commitment does not rely on marriage and that I'm old anyway, and so I must not gonna have no babies.

  No way. And so Yeah.

  we can make this work. It didn't work. I actually always wanted to have a family and while I still do hold a similar view about marriage. His unwillingness to entertain marriage was more about his lack of commitment. And that started, and not even so much oh, there was infidelity or things like that, but just we were just gonna be buddies and that started to resonate in how the relationship was moving forward.

  And I became very unhappy. [00:05:00] saw that like we, he saw that, we went to a friend's wedding of his and the lady. Was like, why your girlfriend is so beautiful? Like when are you gonna marry her? And his reply was we're shopping for a dog. And I just felt so small and so introverted because o other people would look at me and say, this is a good catch.

  When are you gonna get married? And there was always some off the wall strange answer that led nowhere near commitment or acknowledgement that he thought I was wonderful. And he saw that. I was shrink. I was shrinking. So he dumped me. I got dumped at 41 a week before my 41st birthday and believed that was it.

  I had just given all my good years for man, I didn't want children. I continue to work on myself, continue to learn about people life, volunteer work, do things, and we fast forward and I also start writing down what am I looking for in a man? What am I looking for? What would he be looking for in me?

  I start writing these things down. Ladies, you have to write these

  Michelle: Yes. Yes.

  Cha Mosley: You have to write everything down, every [00:06:00] goal, write it down, and, so here I am, I'm 43 and I'm single. There's now we're in a phase of COVID, right? I'm living in Florida now. I'm single. I'm in my cute little girl apartment and it's great, but I'm like, I'm tired.

  I don't wanna be single anymore, and I make a decision. That's it. This is the year I'm meeting my guy. I am meeting my man. And then two weeks later we met and I met my guy.

  Michelle: Oh, I love that.

  Cha Mosley: Two weeks later, we met and he ticked so many boxes. it wasn't all of them, but enough. The important ones. There's some luxury items I had on there that weren't requirements.

  Right?

  Michelle: it would be nice items.

  Cha Mosley: Yeah. Luxury items. If he was also. and so, you know, we fell in love very fast. And he's European, he's from Transylvania of all places. And so he started bringing me into a social circle and his native language is Hungarian. So not a lot of Sylvania out here, but there are Hungarian. So we go to the Hungarian parties with [00:07:00] his people and I could tell here's this black lady, right?

  I'm new, like this is new. There's nothing in these parties, but Hungarians like he's an outsider. He's from Transylvania, but they let him in and he shows up with this lady and I could see the curiosity like, do you think you guys will have babies? Can you have baby? I could see the interest in Ooh, this would be good.

  This little mix here would be nice. We started talking about it and we decided that it would be good. It would be good if we could have a baby, but I made it clear. I didn't wanna do IVF. I liked our life. We were very happy. By this time, I'm 44. I don't wanna introduce a fertility journey into my life. I'm like, I don't want our life to now become like I'm jacking myself up with hormones. We're sad because it's not working. I'm 44. There's a good chance it won't work. With my mindset. No ladies who are going for IVF, please, this is my story, not your story. I felt for me, I was not up for dealing with that with, and nor did I feel like we should, 'cause we were happy. And so we said, if it happens. It happened. So it, at least we discussed it to know that if it did happen, it wouldn't be like, oh you need to get an [00:08:00] abortion. We agreed that we would wanna keep the baby if it were to happen, and we went on about our lives, got pregnant at 45 miscarriage six weeks later.

  But it made me excited about, started bringing back my hope. So like at that time of that six weeks of being pregnant, I started, maybe I can't have a family. I've always wanted to be a mom, but can have two children. And then I miscarried. Oh no, fine. But my OB at the time was a gym, and she assured me miscarriages happened to women of all ages. It's not about my age. Miscarriages happened, and the fact that I could get pregnant at 45, I was 45 by then was a good sign, and she believed I could conceive again. And it was that medical attitude that I am begging every practitioner to adopt just imbu positivity into your patients. And sure enough, 10 months later I conceived and I went looking for her, and she was retired.

  Michelle: Oh no, but I was gonna say, when you said that, I was like, that's really lucky.

  Cha Mosley: That's the story in a nutshell. And had a healthy, beautiful baby.[00:09:00]

  Oh yeah. I forgot that part. Yeah, so I conceived again 10 months later and of course I was afraid. Because I had that miscarriage before, very reluctant to tell anybody that I was pregnant. Very reluctant to get excited about it. Because, I probably wasn't gonna carry her to term anyway.

  And I didn't know it was a she at the time. It wasn't gonna carry it to term, and I didn't wanna tell people, but then I didn't like my attitude. I was like, that's really this really like chicken shit chia. You're essentially like rooting against your baby and you're acting in fear. And fear is a very low emotion to carry around.

  And so I decided that I would share my story on social media, not share it because I'm gonna be an influencer inspiring women, but I'm just gonna tell people I'm pregnant so that I'm not hiding it. I'm just gonna communicate about it broadly. 'cause that's the opposite of fear. And this was all about me handling my own. SHIT about myself. And then women started following along and my belly started growing bigger and bigger, and all the tests were coming back positive. And then I just started developing this following. And now I was like [00:10:00] now I have to keep going because these ladies are so invested now. They wanna see the baby, now they wanna know the baby.

  Now they're calling themselves internet aunties. Now they're in it. Now I can't stop.

  Michelle: That's amazing. It's incredible. I was blown away with the story. I just love it because so many people are in their forties, in at 35, are told that they're geriatric. Like it's geriatric pregnancy. Your fertility falls off a cliff. This is literally what's in the textbooks.

  And of course, statistics are not personal. It's just take everybody in. Put into this whole big category of this is what it is, and you're just a.

  Cha Mosley: Yeah, that's right. That's right. And I ran into that, towards the end of my pregnancy when um, they were talking about inducing me and I was like, listen, here's the deal. I said I, because they were like, because of your age and it's your first pregnancy and, and African American women I had these like triple strikes against me. And I was, and I said, listen, I have a master's degree. And not [00:11:00] that education matters, but it's an indicator of something, i'm college educated, I ran division one track. I've never done drugs. I don't have any pre-existing conditions. I'm not alcoholic. I've never been on medications. Like I have nothing.

  Does that not make my chances any better? The data factors all that. No, it doesn't. It's impossible. It's impossible. And so my new chance now that women are gonna hear me repeating more and more as I want some white coats to do the research. What is the common denominator on women who can conceive naturally after 40?

  There is some underlying predispositions or lifestyle factors that we have that I think are worthy of studying. We're not just lucky. I hate that. Of course. Luck, of course. God, of course. These things are factors, but not to the point of ignoring what did you do? What did all of you ladies do? What did you eat? What's your hormone levels? What, when did you start your period? Like I [00:12:00] don't know the exact questions to ask, which is why I think I'd like some white coats to do it. But there was, I saw in 60 Minutes there was a study as a centurion study like about people who lived to a hundred and they care at this study on, I don't know, for 20 years, researching these people who live to a hundred and why in the common denominators.

  And I'm like, can we not do such a similar thing for pregnancies after

  Michelle: Yeah. Yeah.

  Cha Mosley: we could put the truth. Let's update the data.

  Michelle: I agree. I think I would love that information and that data.

  Cha Mosley: There's too many of us sitting at home, right? And obviously some ladies are using, IVF or donor eggs or things like that. But then we can work backwards and we can help women make lifestyle choices that. Gear them towards prolonged fertility because there's a lot of ladies in other countries, they're like, what's the big deal?

  Like women in my country have babies into their forties and fifties all the time, and I'm like this is, I love America. Don't get me wrong. I'm not one of these people that hates my country. I've traveled to enough places to know I like it here, but however, it's a [00:13:00] mess with the food and drug,

  Michelle: a hundred

  Cha Mosley: pharma relationships and all The things we're taught, you know

  about our

  Michelle: food actually interesting. There was a study of processed food that when women stop eating processed food and eat whole foods, their a MH goes up.

  It's wild.

  Cha Mosley: it's wild. It's wild, right? We've been set up. We've been set up from an early age. I've been telling women I got put on birth control pills at 15, but I got off right. And I, with the thought that I think I wanna have a baby one day, so I should probably stop taking these, right? But put on birth control pills at 15.

  Michelle: Yeah. Yeah. No. It happens all the time. It's probably more of a story, like the majority of the stories.

  Cha Mosley: So yeah. So here we are. Here we are, us girls talking about this thing and trying to spread the word that there's other ways, there's other means, there's other therapies. We need to be taking care of [00:14:00] ourselves way in advance of our fertility journeys. We need to start in our teens, our twenties.

  Our bodies are so forgiving in our twenties. You don't realize. The damage you're causing sometimes until later

  Michelle: 'Cause you don't feel it.

  Cha Mosley: You don't really feel it. But I feel like I was fortunate enough that I got some clear education in my thirties. Into my forties that altered how I was managing my body.

  And I think it really helped. I'm glad to be meeting with you an acupuncturist. I didn't share with you, but acupuncturist saved me from debilitating pain twice. So I didn't use it as part of my fertility journey 'cause I didn't have a fertility journey. I got pregnant by surprise. But I have used acupuncture and I direct anybody I can.

  I go see an acupuncturist, whatever the problem is, add it to the protocol.

  Michelle: Yeah. Yeah, because because really the side effects are minimal maybe bruising or, there's not like a ton of it's so safe and it's incredibly effective. Yeah, so that's that's definitely something. That's how I got into [00:15:00] it. I started as a patient. I was so intrigued that whenever I'd go, I'd ask them, what is this point?

  What is that point? What is this? It's so interesting. How does this work? I don't get it. It was really amazing.

  Cha Mosley: You're talking about acupuncture, like ba basically restoring your own fertility and hormonal balance. Yeah. Yeah, a hundred percent. It really did. Yeah, that's really fascinating. What's really interesting about your story is that you came from an unconventional household, So what's interesting is if you see like families where people are, kids learn two languages, it's much easier for them to learn languages. It almost opens their mind to something different. And so I'm wondering, subconsciously our bodies respond to new things more easily if we know that something can still work, even though it's not necessarily conventional.

  Michelle: So I'm wondering if there's some kind of subconscious open-mindedness that you had because of seeing your parents and seeing how things can be, they don't necessarily have to conform [00:16:00] to what's considered normal.

  Cha Mosley: Exactly right. Exactly right. Like in that aspect of things. For sure. And I feel like as well too,

  like I.

  learned so much from my mom and dad and their endurance in their relationship and how they approached each other that yeah you can see that non-conventional and non-traditional things do work.

  I saw how they supported each other. Gosh, that I had a train of thought with that about open-mindedness, I think. Yes. So there's also a philosophy that I adopted about myself that I realize you gotta, if you're self aware, you'll realize things about your trajectory in life. And I adopted something, and I hope that people receive this.

  We're in a very political climate, but just receive this as I'm telling it and make nothing else out of it. Please. So many years ago, before Donald Trump was our president. He went and spoke at my friend's job, like he was brought in as a guest speaker, motivational or something. And in this speech he said and she relayed this [00:17:00] to me, that you have to be willing to be part of his success was a willingness to be lucky. Just some people aren't even willing to receive luck, which we're finding this in my comment streams and things like that, right?

  But when she shared that with me, I thought, yeah, that's interesting. Be willing for the sky to drop a million dollars on your head. Now she shared this with me. I was barely in my twenties, so now I'm 50. Right? So that was a long time ago, but that was something I.

  said, you know what? Yeah.

  I like that. I'm willing to be lucky. Then further, I realized I would have some bad situations pop up sometimes. And, but I never got the worst case scenario, right? Missed the flight by mistake.

  Miss booked. It showed up a day later, no problem. Just pay a $50 upgrade and we'll take care of you, man. I never get the that's gonna be $1,000 and you have to wait in line. And then so I adopted another life operating basis philosophy about myself that [00:18:00] I'm lucky. And I never, even when things go bad, I never get the worst case scenario. Things go bad, but I never get the worst case scenario. And so these are two operating basis that I've just carried with me. I'm willing to be lucky. I'm willing for things to not even and I wasn't thinking about it, and it just happened and it went well. And even if it goes bad, it ain't gonna go as bad as it could have.

  And that's my, this is how I run my life.

  I

  Michelle: love that. Have you heard of the Luck Factor? It's a book.

  Cha Mosley: No. What's

  Michelle: It's really interesting. So I listened to the audio book 'cause I just don't have time to sit and read. But I listened to the audio book and it's called The Luck Factor. And it's based on actual like studies or research that they did on certain people that are considered to be luck.

  And he was talking about even like some lady who won the lottery multiple times, like things like that. There are people like that. That do live in this world. There are people that are really considered very lucky against all odds. And so they were curious [00:19:00] to see what is it? And I don't remember the big list, but the two things that really came to mind is people who are more apt to put themselves out there in certain opportunity because you can't have opportunities without having the experiences.

  So it's almost like the idea of. If you're 50, 50% chance of success if you're going and trying versus 0% success if you don't do anything. So it's really getting out there, meeting other people because when you're meeting other people, you're putting yourself in this network and then through that, opportunities arise.

  And you have all these like happenings or synchronicities that happen. Versus and then that's one of them. And then another thing is that you also see yourself, like you see things that are not that happen that aren't good, that they're there to help you in some way. Like you just have this in innate belief.

  And then you're also very nonchalant about like things that happened oh yeah, this is just normal. [00:20:00] When things happen really well, like it's just, it's a normal thing and you don't put extra focus on making it happen or you're just flowing with you go with the flow and I thought that was really interesting

  Cha Mosley: That is cool. That

  Michelle: and it's it sounds like you just had that naturally,

  Cha Mosley: Yeah.

  Michelle: it out.

  Cha Mosley: Yeah. You arrive at places and things and. You learn about life and you study and you learn about spirituality and the mind and things and I read a book, dietetics and I learned about the mind and past trauma and how the mind can. Cause you to behave rationally and do certain things and start to sort out oh do I have to be irrational because of something that happened in the past?

  Or can I get a hold of myself? Can I,

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Cha Mosley: Just, and so you start learning how to operate more like a winner. It is also something my father ingrained in me as well, my father coached me in running track and he's always very competitive. My dad is I dunno if you remember TC from the original [00:21:00] Magnum pi, but there's a TV show, Magnum PI with Tom Selleck in Hawaii.

  Many people in, yeah. So he was an actor in a time where black actors didn't have the kind of success that he was having, and he's very much a winner and has a winner attitude. So he always ingrained in me too, having a winning effing attitude like you're doing. When people ask you how you're doing, they don't wanna hear all your problems, you're fine.

  And not to say that you can't have problems, right? But there was just a certain. Attitude that he wanted to see me carry through in life. And as I become older, I more greatly understand and appreciate it. You have to be a winner. You cannot approach life because things happen and oh this, and my dad hit me and my dog ate my homework, and the cat did this, and everybody did these things to you.

  You're not gonna make it. This planet eats victims. eats

  Michelle: oh, trust me. I've been there. When we were talking before, you were a, it was really nice actually. She was asking about me which usually don't PE [00:22:00] guests don't do. She's I wanna know who I'm talking to.

  Cha Mosley: Yeah.

  Michelle: So I had shared that I had irregular periods, and during that time my hormones were outta whack and there was a time for sure I had a very big victim mentality at work and things weren't working out.

  And I remember something clicked and I was like, wait I can't be doing this. I gotta. I can't, I gotta get myself out of this. I gotta start thinking more positive. It was almost like my spirit guide. Some I don't know, something was telling me I was getting downloads like, Michelle, this isn't working.

  you gotta take you gotta take responsibility. Take responsibility for your stuff. And it was just like somehow, but it was good because I had to go through that, at least for me. I needed to experience what it was like somewhere where I felt helpless. It makes me a better coach now, like it makes me a better guide for the people that I work with.

  Cha Mosley: Yeah.

  Michelle: To understand really what it feels like to be in different states of mind. And then [00:23:00] finally, I read the book, the Power of the Subconscious Mind by Joseph Murphy, and that literally single-handedly changed my life. Besides the acupuncture, but it was around the same time.

  Cha Mosley: But it's mindset too. The acupuncture, acupuncture is actually, to me, very spiritual too. It really is. It's very spiritual, but It's a, an address to the

  body. It's energetic.

  right? It's

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Cha Mosley: right? But there is the spirit is separate. The mind, the spirit. These are things that we're dealing with outside of the body and you have to address them both somehow some way, because your body will only be as well as your mind lets it right anyway.

  So if you are sad chronically, you're going to be sick more often. That.

  Michelle: And it's actually according to science, it's actually known. It's a fact like that's been studied.

  Cha Mosley: Yeah. You gotta find a way to be innately happy, preferably without drugging yourself there. I know that doctors prescribe medications for the mind, but those don't [00:24:00] unburden the real reason of the sadness anyway, or the upset or the anxiety. And you're ideally, if you can work through that and get there, you will be physically better.

  Michelle: Yeah, elevated emotions. That there was a study that was done that showed that if laughter therapy after IVF transfers like increased the success rate like dramatically.

  Cha Mosley: I believe that just like laugh, just find a reason to laugh and just like it's true that there is a drill I've done too, that if you just start laughing, you'll just laugh. You force to laugh and then you laugh.

  Michelle: No, literally. And it's funny 'cause you were talking about how you wrote down things, first of all, writing things down. There was a study on that too, and it actually, if you write down your goals, you're 40% more likely to have them happen. That's, so writing is actually incredibly important.

  There's something really magical about it. Probably we only scratch the surface as to why it works. There's, it's really profoundly effective. And then also. I wrote about my husband [00:25:00] before I met him, so I did affirmations. 'cause I was like, this is what I want. And it was like a whole list and he had to be funny.

  And I was like I need somebody to make me laugh, like somebody who's funny because I just feel like life is so much better when you can laugh, like with the people you're around because it there's gonna be heavy situations that we're gonna face, you know, if we're gonna get married and I want somebody who I can laugh with.

  Cha Mosley: That is fantastic. I didn't put laughter on mine and that's a good one. That's a good one. I should have put that down 'cause you got a terrible sense of humor. I feel honey, that is not funny. But I

  Michelle: But sense of humor is contagious. So you can influence him.

  Cha Mosley: Yeah. I, working on it. Working on it. But I did put that

  I want somebody who was happy.

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Cha Mosley: Somebody who I.

  like a happy man. Men that got chips on their shoulder and access to grind are exhausting. You need a happy, I need a happy man that can grind and ax, just not, but he's not doing it as a way of life.

  Michelle: Yes. But that's yeah. As long as you can laugh at him, it's [00:26:00] okay.

  Cha Mosley: Oh, absolutely. Yeah.

  Michelle: then that's also considered part of it.

  Cha Mosley: List, list. He,

  Michelle: But you can influence him. You can influence him.

  Cha Mosley: Yeah. No, totally.

  Michelle: Watch comedies do something funny. We watch reels all the time. I laugh his like, I can't even breathe sometimes with some of the reels that I find on. And I'm like, I don't know. I'm like, I'm sitting there scrolling. I'm like, I can't even believe myself.

  I can't. I gotta stop.

  Cha Mosley: I know. Yeah. I think our common thing is these reels that are so ridiculous that the comment sections are the funniest part. Like the reel

  Michelle: Oh

  Cha Mosley: bad that they just go straight to the comments what do

  Michelle: yes.

  Cha Mosley: say?

  Michelle: It's so funny. It's really like sometimes I'll screenshot and send it to my family 'cause it's just, it's so funny. But I was gonna say, so speaking of reels, like you, we were just talking about this in the pre-talk, how sometimes when you do break the status and you live a life that is unconventional in a good way.

  It's so interesting, and [00:27:00] I found this just in general, like learning, like the mindset how sometimes even when I'm working with people, like I can't be too quick to change the reality or to question the reality or, it's an ease thing. The reason why is because when people's reality, even though it's a worse reality than the reality you're presenting.

  For them to switch from a reality that they're comfortable with, even though it's not a good one, they're gonna be really protective of it. And it's a really interesting psychology. But it is, you present them with something that is so incredible that breaks really, like the reality or the logic that people have gotten so used to breaks the, I guess the record, the same thing with a four minute mile.

  About a lot. It's like the second it, the second it was broken and people mentally prepared for it, then it was broken a lot more frequently, very closely [00:28:00] after.

  Cha Mosley: yeah, I like that analogy. I might use that one

  Michelle: Oh, use it. Take it.

  Cha Mosley: Yeah.

  Michelle: Yeah. But it's amazing how people are very protective of it, including the industry and how people just don't like, they don't wanna hear it.

  That it's possible to get pregnant in your late forties. And the oldest woman that got pregnant actually naturally was 58, and she had her baby at 59.

  Cha Mosley: Wow.

  Michelle: But the point is it's possible.

  Cha Mosley: that's it. That's all I'm saying

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Cha Mosley: Hey, it's a mindset, almost like the four minute mile. Know that there is somebody that ran a four minute mile, so if that one person did it, they know that it can be done. Again, that's, that is essentially the simplicity. Of my message and, but Yeah.

  it does hit realities of people who don't like it. It hits realities of women who have been going at it for a long time. Without success, right? It ruffles their feathers a [00:29:00] bit, but largely my message isn't directed at them when I say that it's possible, right?

  It's to the women who haven't even met their man yet and they're panicking. They're 40 and they're still single, or they're just trying, and they went in and the doctor said, oh, your A MH is low, and they're destroyed thinking that it's impossible. My messaging is to those women who are just starting out, that the first mindset before you talk to anybody is just simply know that it's possible. And the moment that you hear that it's not possible, raise that as a red flag and go find somebody else.

  Michelle: Yeah,

  Cha Mosley: That's all I'm saying right now. You'll do your journey and what will be, and some women do genuinely struggle with infertility, but. There's so many things that you can do for yourself to prepare your body for pregnancy before we conclude that you genuinely have infertility. There's some work to be done, and that's all I'm trying to tell women. But not only is it [00:30:00] possible, you can have a perfectly favorable outcome, like I, I represent, I know the holy grail of what's possible. Natural conception, right? Without trying carry my baby to term. I didn't have diabetes, I didn't have preeclampsia. I didn't swell, I didn't vomit. I gained like 23 pounds, like my body bounce back. The baby's healthy. But guess what? That's fucking good news. I dunno why people are so mad.

  Michelle: Yeah. No, it's amazing news. It's incredible. It inspires me. That's what like your story really is so inspiring.

  Cha Mosley: And most people get it. Most people get it. But some people that are in a certain frame of mind take the messaging as an assault that I am misdirecting women and giving false hope and I shouldn't tell them this. And I'm like everybody else is telling 'em everything else. I'm, my story is not the problem.

  Michelle: It's just your story.

  Cha Mosley: Teach my story.

  Michelle: Yeah. And so to that I would love if somebody really did study this and ask questions. I'm almost [00:31:00] thinking of just doing a questionnaire on my own, like not real study, but just collecting information. 'cause I'd be really curious, but from your perspective, because I do believe in intuition.

  I do think that your opinion of this matters, even if you're not a white coat, because you know innately. What innately we have intelligence within us that kind of guides us. What are your thoughts of why you were able to conceive? Are there anything, like we were talking about the mindset, maybe seeing things or visioning or allowing yourself to feel lucky, but anything else?

  Cha Mosley: There's those things, right? There's my general attitude about life, but again, we talk about the western culture. So one, I was an athlete, right? Like I, I ran track. I was very fit and I maintained that fitness through my thirties and things where I run and I used my body. I didn't let my. Muscle mass go. I kept myself fit. [00:32:00] I'm proud of the fact that I don't smoke cigarettes. I did in my upper twenties, I had a brief party girl phase in Vegas where I was drinking, right? But that didn't last long. I actually self-regulated on that. I drove home drunk one night. I drove, I'm really intoxicated. And I looked at that night and I said, that's not okay. God got you home, but don't do that again. And I never drank like that again. And so I don't have a, I don't have genuinely an alcohol history or a drug history. I think that these things matter. My mom taught me how to cook, so I cook at home.

  I've always cooked at home more than eating out. I do eat out, I

  Michelle: So you eat more whole foods, like actual, like

  Cha Mosley: Whole food. Yeah.

  I take the ground meat and I ground it up and throw it in a salad or I make a taco and I'm not, Yeah.

  maybe the taco shell was processed, but the fact of even just simply cooking at Yeah. Using your own hands and your energy to make your food.

  Your own hands, your own energy, you know what you put in it.

  There's not all these extra added things that you get when you [00:33:00] go to a restaurant or McDonald's, right? So the fact that I eat at home more than I eat out the people that I surround myself with, like I'm very mindful of energy. Like you have your own energy, but your energy is influenced by your environment.

  Michelle: It's true.

  Cha Mosley: So if you're surrounded by negative people, you will eventually drop down to that or worse. So my girlfriends, are very positive people. My fiances are upbeat, peppy, happy guy. And that's how I like it. And I don't hang out with drama. I just don't like, I don't, I'm not interested.

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Cha Mosley: I'm almost a bad friend. Energy. Like you can only call me so many times with the same problem before I'm like, stop calling 'cause I done told you what I think. So this is the fifth phone call about Tyrone. If you're not gonna leave him, that's okay, but we need to talk about something else.

  Michelle: Yeah. Yeah, a hundred percent.

  Cha Mosley: Waste all my hours with your whining. I'm not

  Michelle: about this a lot. Boundaries.

  Cha Mosley: I been always wanna [00:34:00] throw up the fence. Like you can call me a couple times with the problem, but if I gave you my advice and you don't wanna follow it, I don't care. That's okay. But we gotta talk about something else.

  Michelle: Yeah, that's true.

  Cha Mosley: that's how it is. It's your energy.

  It's how you allow people to interact and engage with you. It is what you put in your body. I stopped wearing fragrances. I cut, I said I should I didn't stop. I would say I cut my use of fragrance products by about 85%. At the age of 30, your skin's your largest organ.

  So I bathe with un fragrance soaps and Yeah.

  sometimes it's dove and that might have some other stuff in it, but I just, you can't do everything right.

  Michelle: Yeah, it's true.

  Cha Mosley: like some, you gotta give yourself a break somewhere, right? So the fragrance products and things, I really cut back on that. And I think the sum total of the energy of the people that I exercised, that I maintained my weight, that I didn't drink, that I didn't do drugs, that I didn't smoke. These things add up to something that makes sense.

  Michelle: Let me ask you another question. Do you have a [00:35:00] spiritual practice or some kind of belief in something higher?

  Cha Mosley: I do.

  Michelle: Yeah, I think that's a big one too.

  Cha Mosley: I think that spirituality and acknowledgement of a higher entity beyond yourself. That there is a spiritual factor to this universe is extremely important. I respect everybody's belief and philosophy, so I don't get into what that should be because it's gonna be individual.

  I think any person faced with a life or death situation for themselves or their child, if they never believed in God, suddenly find themselves. Please, at the last Minute Rec, recognizing that there's something beyond yourself. And I do. I do, and you,

  Michelle: had an amazing guest who actually you should connect with if you want to speak to because you'd mentioned like speaking to a lot of practitioners. Her name is Dr. Lisa Miller. She's a psychotherapist and she she's a researcher in Columbia University and [00:36:00] she's, she basically researches the brain on spirituality and she had her own fertility journey.

  Had realized. And what they've discovered is that believing in something higher doesn't necessarily have to look any one way. It's just the idea of believing in something greater than yourself. So whatever that is, it could be the Dao, it could be, God, it could be Jesus, it could be any, anything.

  And so you basically believing in that or having that kind of faith in something greater than yourself that you can lean on. Protects you from depression, it changes your brain.

  Cha Mosley: That's very, now, that's the first time because psychotherapy in and of itself is very mind and materialistic usually. That's fascinating that she's studying the effects of the spirit

  Michelle: Yes.

  Cha Mosley: on mental health. Good for her.

  Michelle: It's fascinating. Her work's incredible. Like she's just somebody who I really admire and [00:37:00] love, like she's just a wonderful person. And, you could see that she's really got her heart into this. She loves what she does, and she feels like really passionate about it. And I understand why.

  Because it, there's a message. She's really bringing out a message into the world that is very much needed now.

  Cha Mosley: Yeah. Yeah. There, there is something at play beyond just what we see here. I believe it is been demonstrated to me conclusively. Like I, I don't even believe it. I know it

  Michelle: Yes. Yeah, I love that. Thank

  you. That's

  Cha Mosley: yeah, Let me, yeah,

  Michelle: yeah that's definitive language right there. I love that because it's true. It I've even seen it with my patients once they make a connection with the spirit, baby. They just say, okay, child of mine I just wanna connect with you. Show me little signs.

  And the signs that they get. I'm telling you like two of them had signs that specifically at referenced numbers that ended up being the date [00:38:00] of birth of their child. Is that nuts or what? I was like, okay, now how do you explain that? There's no other explanation other than it is, it's so mag magnificent and beyond divine.

  Cha Mosley: It is beautiful and I tell women this too, right? When they're on their journeys, like to your point of what you're saying, I.

  say be the baby. Be the baby. Imagine that there's a being coming and it's looking for a mom and a dad and it stops over your house and there's all this crying and bickering about the fertility and all this upset and all.

  I said, would you want to come into a family like that? And not a lot of pressure, like it's just a god dang baby, right? The baby's supposed to come in and alleviate all this distress. You're dramatizing right now. No, that's not a household anybody would wanna come into or. A job, if it was a job or a career environment and somebody was peeking in watching the stick wow, that's really dramatic.

  I don't know if I want all of [00:39:00] that. Really encourage women to take a step back. Take a step back, and I know when, again, my conceptions were relatively easy, right? And I get it when a woman has been trying, she really wants the baby. I'm not trying to negate the emotional toll that can take, especially if it involves a lot of losses.

  I, I don't wanna negate that, but I do want to also. Really just point up the fact that you're trying to bring in life and you wanna bring in quality life, right? Not all beings are the same on this planet. We have murderers and we have. Saints,

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Cha Mosley: On the we, right? And so which one is yours?

  Which one is coming to you? It's true, I don't mean to be blunt, but it's, so who do you want? Who do you want? And I think that it really, you have to take a step back, maybe take a break, maybe take a vacation, and really just regroup, calm the environment and make it appealing for your baby.

  Michelle: It's [00:40:00] interesting Nancy Weiss she's, she actually is a spirit baby medium, and she ended up using embryo donors. And she said that she had she had basically like just information that came to her and she gets that a lot and she felt that's what really got her to find her embryo sisters in Atlanta where she moved randomly, but there's no random, there was like definitely something that pulled her there.

  Cha Mosley: Wait, her embryo sisters,

  Michelle: Embryo sisters. So it was embryo sisters and she ended up adopting them. And. Using them like with IVF. So it was just incredible. And one of the girls looks like her. She put a side by side picture of her when she was little and when her baby was the same or her daughter was the same age and it was insane.

  So I there's definitely like in an intelligence at work, but one of the messages that she got was that your baby wants to play you. Your baby wants you to be [00:41:00] playful, your baby wants you to play. So that it can feel an opening to come.

  Cha Mosley: Wow, that's real. It's a baby.

  Michelle: So

  Cha Mosley: baby's gonna be so vulnerable. Can't do anything, can't defend itself. You wanna come into a house full of strife where it can't relax. Or it's gotta be the solution for the happiness. Like you can't make the baby the solution for your happiness. Gotta get the happiness going.

  Chill

  Michelle: Yeah. I like your honesty too. I appreciate your honesty because I think that it is important and sometimes honesty's not gonna feel sugarcoated. It's gonna feel like sometimes it's gonna sting, if it's something that. We need to look at It's okay to challenge your thoughts. It's okay to challenge your perspective and to kinda look at it

  Cha Mosley: yeah, and it depends on the place from which it's coming, right? Like

  Michelle: right. From a good

  Cha Mosley: From a Yeah.

  it's an intention, right? There's. Nothing that's lacking understanding or compassion. But sometimes you need a third person [00:42:00] outside of the situation to look in and be like, Hey, but what about just to redirect your attention. And my intention though, direct, like I've said it before and it was, it's always been received about having to chill out. 'cause imagine the BA have you looked at what the baby would be looking at if they were looking in your house? And they're like, oh no, they never would consider.

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Cha Mosley: What would the baby think of all this?

  Michelle: Yes. And it is, it's a dance. It's not it's not something that we could just press a button. It's a dance between us and invitation, and it's like really a three-way dance. It's you, your partner, and the soul of the child coming in.

  Cha Mosley: Absolutely. I would joke with people when they would ask me like, do you think you can have a baby? I would literally joke and I'd be like, yeah, some bean could come in here and scrape an egg off the side of my uterus and make it work. I wouldn't even say it in, in the right I'd already have it sitting on the uterus, like some bean could come along and find an egg and make, make it work.

  Then he or she can have at it. But that's all I'm doing. [00:43:00] I'm not doing nothing else. And that's the baby. I got that baby came in, found an egg and made it work.

  Michelle: Incredible. That's just amazing. I just love it so much. I knew that I was gonna have the best conversation with you, and I'm telling you, like I, I was like, there's something really cool about her. Just like in general, your personality, and then on top of it, your story. And I just love the fact that you are just unapologetically like.

  Yourself and inspiring. You're just like, yeah, you can do it.

  Cha Mosley: Because you can, like if sometimes, I have to tell women now because they don't understand 'cause they see me. With hundreds of thousands of followers now, and lately I've been going viral, right? So I'm like really being pushed out there. My account's skyrocketing. They lose sight of the fact that just a few years ago, I was a vulnerable, scared lady who thought that I was gonna lose my baby.

  And the only reason why I posted anything on social media was because I was scared and it was my own [00:44:00] therapy, my own handling for myself. I am not some PR machine agent with a whole team guiding this movement. I'm evolving with it. I don't have all the messaging worked out. I don't have all the, everything is not a perfect statement.

  Half the time I'm shooting stuff on the fly or something seems interesting and I whip out my camera because I was just that lady just a few years ago that was just sitting at home scared and didn't even wanna tell anybody I was pregnant. Now you look up a few years later, you think I need to have everything all organized and all together, and all perfectly stated and said I'm sorry.

  Michelle: never perfect.

  Cha Mosley: It ain't never gonna never be perfect. I'm not gonna say never. I'm willing for this to evolve into something big where I have a PR team and it polishes up and it gets professional. But this is still a very, It's life, It's very real. It's very grassroots. I definitely. It's, I'm having a good time.

  I'm having a good time, and I do feel where if there have been times where I said something and it did hurt a lady who's still on her journey I feel for that and I [00:45:00] apologize for that. I really do. If anything was taken in a context that caused hurt, because that's the least thing that I'm trying to do.

  I'm trying to rally every lady, whether you've been trying for 10 years or 10 minutes, you can do it.

  Michelle: But you know what though? That's how it is. When you're getting to the point where your message is coming out, you're gonna have all kinds of different perspectives, reactions, and and I, that's what happens. It's just your voice is getting heard, which is an amazing thing, but I think the majority of people are actually getting inspired.

  Cha Mosley: I think So, too by, by my observational statistics,

  Michelle: Yes. Yes.

  Cha Mosley: Of my comments, things, the favorable comments. Far exceed any negative ones. But I'm one of those people where I'm very capable of self-inspection and 'cause I really do wanna help every woman. I don't wanna alienate. I don't care if I alienate medical practitioners who don't like my message.

  I actually don't care about that. But I do care about the ladies in the trenches because I love being a mom [00:46:00] so much. It's been the most beautiful experience. Like I sometimes I just stare at my daughter. I still can't believe she's there. Like I'll just be watching her play and I'll look at her dad and I'd be like, can you believe we did that? Can you believe like we look at her like we have a daughter. I'm still just in awe that she's here. And I want this for every woman because I believed that I wasn't gonna have a baby. I had written it off. I was content to live life not being a mom. And to some degree you have to be willing to do that, but I'm so grateful that my contentment didn't win and that God, to be a mom. There's so much about being a woman and about our bodies and everything. I feel you don't even get to understand until you carry life and bear life and I just feel made more woman. I feel way more feminine since having her. And it's another level of love that you can't experience anywhere until you hold your baby.

  And I don't care if that's an adopted baby, A donor egg baby. Your baby, Right.

  You decide that's your baby.

  [00:47:00] There's just kind of love. It is just, it's being a mom. It's being a mom. And I wanted so bad for every woman and I get so angry when I see like how much discouragement there is for them for their femininity and their God-given right to bring life. And then I look at it and I'm like. The over 40 mom is a valuable type of mom. We remember life before cell phones. We remember life before the internet. There is a wisdom and an experience that we bring that's almost gonna be lost. It's gonna be lost, but there's a grounding that I think that we can bring to future generations that's still needed and very important. We're still healthy, we're not dying. And I just hated that women are so discouraged. I'm like, what the fuck?

  Michelle: yeah. It, there's a lot of messaging out there that's. So it's not good, it's not healthy, and it's so unconscious, like it's just expected [00:48:00] and it's, that bothers me because that's not, it became like the status quo and it shouldn't be.

  Cha Mosley: it shouldn't. So with that, I wanna reverse a question on you. I know we're coming up on our time, but I'm a big fan of acupuncture. How do you apply acupuncture to fertility? Can you talk a little bit about that?

  Michelle: Of course. So with, for, with any kind of acupuncture for anybody, we look at patterns. So the first thing I do is I always look at, sorry, there's like a bug flying around. I always look at patterns first. So if a person has like blood deficiency, we wanna tonify or if they're really deficient with energy chi life force vitality.

  If they have blockages, if certain areas, if they have like blood stagnation. So we look at like the overall,

  Cha Mosley: how do you look at it? Do you require blood work or do you have scanners? Without

  Michelle: no.

  Cha Mosley: Do you do?

  Michelle: look at tongues. We look at, we feel pulses. Also, honestly, the biggest one is for me questioning [00:49:00] and also sensing their energy and kind of like being around them and looking at them. Probably even more so than tongue and pulse, believe it or not. Like I can immediately, you can start to get a feel.

  Cha Mosley: Yeah.

  Michelle: So based on just their symptoms and what they feel, you start to map it out. And this is why my initial is always like virtual. I have I ask them questions, I really just get to know them based on their voice, based on their skin, based on all of these different things. Then you look at them as a whole.

  And then once, so you look at like the big picture, you're addressing that. But then also I will put a lot of points locally on. The pelvic area, so that calls for more blood because it's a controlled injury. When you get like needles in it basically tells the immune system, Hey, something's happening, but it's nothing dangerous.

  But it does wake it up so it will bring more blood flow to that area,

  Cha Mosley: okay.

  Michelle: which you could literally see around the needle. You could see it like a red because it's [00:50:00] bringing more blood flow to that area. And it has actually been researched and shows that. The uterus does get more blood flow like the uterine artery does bring in more blood after acupuncture.

  So it's really fascinating. And then I

  Cha Mosley: And I don't wanna take that data. I don't wanna take that data for granted. So let's talk about the uterus and

  more blood flow. Why does the uterus need more blood? What does that do?

  Michelle: Okay, so then it helps not just the uterus, people think it helps with the uterine lining. Yes, a hundred percent It does, but it also helps. Ovaries. And one of the things that happens with aging ovaries, aging eggs and the thing that kind of brings it to like the quality and decline is that the capillaries stop being flexible and they stop bringing as much blood flow.

  So the blood flow is a big part of that. So when you're bringing in, even if you're eating the best diet. If [00:51:00] your digestion's off, which we treat, you wanna get the digestion in order so that it's able to really convert the nutrients that you're eating into eventually blood.

  But then if you don't have the blood flow, how is the nutrients gonna impact or arrive to the ovaries and support the egg quality?

  And then, so it takes a couple of months, of course and it starts to come to life.

  Cha Mosley: Okay. I love this. I love this because this is I'm gonna get your take. 'cause I love asking functional medicine doctors this. You're an acupuncturist. So a MH doctors, so many women, excuse me. So many women write to me in my DM doctor said I have low a MH. Doctor said I have low A MH, I can't get pregnant. What do you say?

  Michelle: Not true. You can get pregnant with a very low a MH and I've seen it happen. All it means is that you have less but that doesn't mean that you can't get pregnant. We focus, especially in my work on egg quality, you need one good egg. That's [00:52:00] it. And it even in menopause, women still have some eggs.

  They're just dormant. Yeah, you could totally it doesn't just because you have low mh now, why do they focus on it so much? They focus on it so much because. Most of the time when you're going to a fertility clinic, they're focusing on numbers because the more they have as many people know, like you, you get the eggs and then the eggs only certain amounts fertilized, and then it dwindles down until you finally get the embryo and then the embryos that actually are viable.

  So it it keeps dwindling down. So for them and their stats. Unfortunately it is an important factor that they pay attention to. They want their statistics to stay high 'cause that's what sets them apart as a fertility clinic. And so in order for that success, one of the things that they focus on is the numbers.

  Can we produce a lot? From the retrieval. So can we retrieve a lot of eggs because that's going to [00:53:00] help the success? So that's what they're looking at. They're looking at it from an IVF perspective. However what I've seen in my experience is that if you have a low A MH, you're actually more likely to have a successful natural pregnancy, even if at older age.

  Cha Mosley: Interesting.

  Michelle: Yeah. And it happens to people who have tried for years and haven't had success, have even tried with IVF, and then finally give up for a little bit, come back to themselves and then fall pregnant naturally.

  Cha Mosley: Yeah, the number of women that have written to me that after IVF didn't work and they were tired of the stress and they just said, forget it. I don't care anymore, and then they relax and then they go get pregnant. Like I get that story.

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Cha Mosley: They just stop with all the trying and then they go get pregnant.

  It's funny just what relaxing will do, but. I appreciate you sharing that insight as well, because I'm just like, what a, what woman? So worried about A MH. I had one practitioner said, listen, [00:54:00] you're over 40. Your A MH is supposed to be low. You're over 40. Eggs are, Yeah. You lost a lot of eggs, so what? Who cares?

  You

  Michelle: of they're just responding to what the professionals are telling them.

  Cha Mosley: Yeah. Yeah. So anyway,

  Michelle: And there was even a study that shows that low mh high FSH doesn't predict pregnancy outcomes. So pretty interesting.

  Cha Mosley: Yeah. Yeah.

  My, my last A MH test I got said it was like 0.17. I'm like I got pregnant three years ago. I don't know much how much higher it was

  then, but it Sure. One through the roof ladies and I still got pregnant.

  Michelle: Exactly. And it happens. It really does.

  Yeah.

  Cha Mosley: So well.

  Michelle: So for people who have not discovered you, I'm sure a lot of people know who you are, but if they haven't and they wanna check out your Instagram, I definitely love, that's how I found Chia. I loved, I love her Instagram. It's amazing. You share a lot of great things.

  So how can people find you? What are your offerings?

  Cha Mosley: Yes, so you can find [00:55:00] me on the standard platforms Instagram, TikTok, YouTube pregnancy over 40 on all of those. I'm also on Facebook just under my name, chia Mosley. That's, it's my personal profile that mistakenly blew up. So it's just under my name. It's not under a handle. I encourage women to make their way to my video section on my YouTube channel because I've done interviews with many practitioners about preventing miscarriages. IVF and not IVF, sorry, the role of herbs in pregnancy and preparing your body for pregnancy. Like I've interviewed a lot of practitioners, I'm gonna interview you. We're gonna reverse this flow. So I definitely encourage women to do that. That's free information. As well. I do have a private. Subscription community that I encourage women to enjoy. I have so many dms that I can no longer just sit at my computer and talk to everyone. So I created a subscription community. Those are the ladies that give my time and attention. We have monthly meet and greets. I bring in practitioners just for the ladies.

  Once a month we have more private [00:56:00] sessions and they can ask questions. And so that's what I am offering. Now. I have other things up my sleeve for future. But this is what I have going on now, but I think I'm pretty easy to find at this point,

  Michelle: awesome chia. This was amazing. This is better than I even expected, and I had, I was just so excited to talk to you anyway to begin with. So you just have amazing energy, such a great attitude on life, very inspiring. Like you're not just your story, but you as a person. So I really appreciate you coming on today.

  Cha Mosley: I appreciate you having me, and I appreciate all those kind words. I feel

  Michelle: It's true, genuine

  Cha Mosley: I believe you. I believe you. Thank you so much.

  Michelle: wonderful. I'm gonna.

Ep 379 Pregnant at 46 and Mother at 47 with Ch-a Mosley

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I am joined by Ch-a Mosley (@pregnancyoverforty), the inspiring voice behind Pregnancy Over 40. Cha shares her incredible story of naturally conceiving at 46 and welcoming her daughter at 47 after being told that motherhood later in life was unlikely.

In this conversation, we talk about the realities of fertility after 40, the mindset shifts that can support a fertility journey, and how lifestyle factors such as nutrition, movement, emotional health, and reducing environmental toxins can influence reproductive health. Cha opens up about her experience with miscarriage, finding hope again, and why she believes women deserve more empowering messages about fertility and age.

We also explore holistic fertility support, including how acupuncture can improve blood flow, regulate the nervous system, and support overall reproductive health. This episode is a powerful reminder that statistics do not define your fertility journey and that there are many factors that can influence fertility and natural conception. 

Key Takeaways:

• Pregnancy after 40 is possible and fertility statistics do not define your personal fertility journey.

• Mindset, hope, and emotional resilience can play an important role in supporting fertility.

• Lifestyle choices such as whole foods, regular movement, and reducing toxins may support egg quality and hormonal health.

• Acupuncture may improve circulation to the uterus and ovaries which can support reproductive health.

• Creating a supportive emotional and physical environment may help support conception and pregnancy
  

Disclaimer: The information shared on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider before making any changes to your health or fertility care.

Ready to discover what your body needs most on your fertility journey?
Take the personalized quiz inside The Wholesome Fertility Journey and get tailored resources to meet you exactly where you are:

 https://www.michelleoravitz.com/the-wholesome-fertility-journey

For more about my work and offerings, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Curious about ancient wisdom for fertility? Grab my book The Way of Fertility:
https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

Join the Wholesome Fertility Facebook Group for free resources & community support:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

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Disclaimer: Some of the links shared are affiliates but this is at no cost to you and can even get you discounted prices!

• Transcript

  Michelle: Welcome back to the podcast, Amy. I'm so excited to have you on.

  Aimee: you, Michelle. I think this is what my third time Is it? Yeah.

  Michelle: maybe fourth, I feel like.

  Aimee: exciting. Thank you.

  Michelle: So first of all, congratulations on the new edition of Yes, you Can Get Pregnant, which is so exciting. We had a little pre-talk and I'm very excited to start picking your brain on that.

  Aimee: Yeah, it's been an exciting revision. I think, you know, as I was saying to you before we started recording. It was about 10 years. It's really 11 years since I wrote the first version. And it's, it's really awesome to see. I mean, it's not awesome to see the increased rise in, in fertility. Challenges like that, you know, we've gone up like at least another 10 to 20% of women impacted. [00:03:00] And, and now male factor is a huge piece. But what I enjoyed seeing was so much of the content, you know, and the recommendations that I made 11 years ago that you and I have been making since we've, been out of grad school. all about living in accordance with the DAO and getting back in touch with nature and, and doing things like simply.

  And like circadian rhythm, which we didn't really even have a term for. I guess we did have a term, but we didn't really use that or nervous system work, all of that. What's, what I found validating I think is, is the amount of research that's come out in the last 10 years. Kind of validating all the things, like validating, no, we do need more natural light.

  The blue light is doing damage. You know, sperm health clearly has. Has significantly declined. The environmental toxins are, are really seriously doing damage, you know, ultra processed foods. So there's just this vast volume of research now that backs up much of what we were taught and, and have been, you know, [00:04:00] educating the others on for, for, you know, if we count Chinese medicine for thousands of years, you know, so that part is, is fun, you know, to just.

  You know, I was telling you before we went live too, like my, my citations and resources in the book like went up 10 x if not more. Like my editor was like, we have to actually just have its own PDF and people can download for this. There's way too many citations in the book. Like, I can't, I didn't, I didn't account for this. So, you know, that's fun. And then I increased, you know, content around, preparing for IVF, it's has its own chapter now. Improving egg and sperm quality over the age of 35 has its own chapter now. Ovarian rejuvenation. I did a chapter with Dr. Zaha Murphy and talked about ozone and PRP and HBO and laser and peptides and, you know, so lots of, I think, you know, we've really brought all of the newer information to the plate and into the book, and so that's exciting and I really, I hope.

  You know, it's [00:05:00] used as, almost like an encyclopedia of resources. Like, just got so much information and, and really, so I think still has that, that deeply empowering message of like, you have a lot of power here and here, you know, here are the ways you can connect the dots for yourself because, you know, again, as we were discussing before we went live, that, we now know, and I think that the, the research really supports this, that most all unexplained fertility challenges.

  Have an explanation and, you know, they're rooted in inflammation, immune disorders, you know, maybe structural issues. not just all your eggs are bad because you're over the age of 35, which can't wait for that stigma to just leave the room.

  Michelle: A hundred percent. Oh my God. Totally. I feel the same way. And it's exciting. It's, what's exciting is that we're coming on a lot of amazing research and new technology. PRP is exciting. I definitely wanna pick your brain on that. Because I've heard you know, there's, there's obviously, I've had doctors that were like, no, maybe it's [00:06:00] not safe for the ovaries.

  I know Dr. Mur, he's had a lot of great success with it. And you work

  Aimee: Yeah. And then there was a recent meta analysis that was not, you know, he did not do that research. That was someone looking at all the research that's been going on, right. Meta analysis, obviously. Showing. Yeah, it, it has marked impacts on improving a MH antral follicle count, BLASTY rate IVF outcomes.

  You know, and so I still feel, and what I see clinically and feel good about saying is in, I think 50%, five zero of the cases that do the ovarian PRP see positive benefits and 50% just don't see any benefits. But I don't see negatives.

  Michelle: Okay. That's amazing. So what are some of the positive benefits you've seen?

  Aimee: The A MH going up the antra follicle count. More, you know, if women are doing IVF, you see? Just more get fertilized more. Get blast. Get to

  Michelle: Wow, amazing. I've seen, I've seen that [00:07:00] happen. I've seen it where I've talked to people up north that went to see him and they were trying to conceive naturally and, and it wasn't working for years. And then they went to see him and a couple of months later, 'cause it does take, I guess a couple of months for it to really like show up.

  And then, and then they would get pregnant like naturally. So I'm like, okay, well, you know, obviously must have done something. Mm-hmm.

  Aimee: think it, it, you know, it is your own growth factors and so, so I think for all the listeners, you know, human growth hormone was like kind of the hot ticket for a while. Like add HDH to your protocols. This is your own HDH. That's how I would look at that. You know, these are your own growth factors and that's, I think that's even better than borrowing from, you know, however these, the human growth hormone is being made or, or, or created and where it's coming from. then, you know, it, it is basically like the other thing that we really know now and can confidently say is we don't run out of eggs. Like, yes, the pool is declining, but we now know that even [00:08:00] women in menopause, and this is, you know.

  I think, I think there's multiple research studies that show the same thing. At this point, women in menopause still have about a thousand eggs left in their ovaries. And so it's not about running out, it's not about the pool. I mean the pool declines. I'm not, not saying that, but it, you don't just wake up and one day they're all gone.

  It's really about they start losing communication. They go dormant. And what the PRP seems to be doing is waking up those dormant follicles.

  Michelle: Amazing. And then

  Aimee: the game, not creating new ones. Now there are people doing, and not Murphy's one of them, but there's other people as well doing stem cell outside of the US 'cause that's not currently legal.

  That theoretically is actually causing you to create new eggs in your ovaries.

  Michelle: That's incredible. Let's talk about that a little bit. I know it's not in the US but I'm just really curious. So what is that technology? 'cause that sounds really cool.

  Aimee: mean, they're using placental stem cells, so they're buying them from, I think there's a bank in Colorado actually [00:09:00] that is doing it. You can get 'em in different places like Panama, a big place. I think Dubai is another place. And these are so placental sorry. Placental cord blood stem cells. That these are apparently it's the word like omnipotent, like they can become anything and they don't have to be your cord blood stem cells.

  They can be anyone's, it's just like a bank of these stem cells. And then you, so you do the PRP, so you draw the blood, do the platelets, you're mixing that in with the stem cells and then injecting that into the ovaries and then. New eggs should be theoretically created. It's hard to know for certain if that's happening because I don't think anyone's done like a test of like staining the old ones to see what happens with the new ones.

  You know what I mean? Like, 'cause we're human trials that that's kind of hard to do. Perhaps it's being done on the animal model, but then people would argue, you know, is that the same? So I have seen girls with like POI, [00:10:00] you know, like they're young, they premature ovarian insufficiency, like they got nothing, they're not cycling, that kind of thing.

  Or women in menopause and it seems to be kind of bringing them out of that. Again, not working for everyone, and there's really not enough. I haven't seen enough of my clients do it clinically for me to have like a, a solid, like, you know, go and do it. I, and Dr. Murphy would say he likes to like layer it in, you know, first to start with regular PRP.

  Then he does the adipose, which is where he's getting stem cells from your own fat cells.

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Aimee: And that can be done in the us. And then there's the stem cells that's happening, you know, for him in The Bahamas. And there's also people doing mitochondrial replacement therapy. There's like CN Ys doing that in Mexico.

  Doc, there's whatever doctor his name is in Albania is doing it. Me, he's doing it. There's a guy in Spain doing it. That's where you're borrowing mitochondria from a donor egg [00:11:00] and taking out your. Older mitochondria or malfunctioning mitochondria and switching that. So it's still your genetics. You still need donor eggs, but you're not borrowing biology and genetics.

  You're just borrowing mitochondria

  Michelle: Right. Which has a different set of genetics anyway

  Aimee: Yeah, exactly.

  Michelle: your own body.

  Aimee: Yeah, so it's you know, the, the technology is cool. I think it's moving at a rapid pace, like from what I can see. I also there was recently a post Dak Shepherd had said something recently, like, I'll, I told my girls that when they turn 18, I'll, I'll help, I'll pay for them to freeze their eggs and any, you know, that went viral.

  And I think you said it like on people.com or something like that. And you know, I, I did a story on it 'cause I was like, I think, I think this is great. Like, I think a, it a, first of all, it's nice that, you know, he has the money that he can do that not everybody has those resources and the ability, but b, by the time his children are 18, that's like another decade or so, if not more.

  We might not need eggs. We might be able to generate them just from any of your DNA. So a swab inside the [00:12:00] cheek. And then when I first wrote, yes, you can get pregnant, I had interviewed Dr. Hugh Taylor. He is, I think he still is the head of reproductive medicine at Yale. And he said to me, he's like, yeah, probably in 10 to 15 years I'll actually be out of a job.

  He's like, because we'll be able to make e eggs from swabbing the inside of a cheek. Like we'll be able to just generate eggs for, for you at whatever age you are inside a lab and then fertilize that, make an embryo and that is being done. I don't know that it's been done human wise, but it's definitely being done in a lab.

  I'm not sure whose eggs they're using, some mammal, but that's.

  Michelle: That's fascinating.

  Aimee: too. Yeah,

  Michelle: Well, they're mammals. I mean, we're mammals, you know, so there's gotta be, if it works, there's gotta be some way to make it work on humans as well.

  Aimee: And I think that's part of the research that's going on that I think is also really amazing and I hope, I hope everyone who's listening gets, you know, time to have access to it, but like studying, why are we the only mammals that actually can.

  Procreate after a [00:13:00] certain age. Like why do our eggs go dormant? What is that piece? You know, there's a little bit looking to the kisspeptin and that and that peptide, and apparently that, I guess, declines with age and that keeps the ovarian reserve abundant. I've had some patients use the Kisspeptin peptide.

  I've not seen. Any success with that. But, but kind of researching why, why do we downregulate our reproduction at a certain time in our life, and why do men not, you know? And so looking at other mammals trying to understand that you know, I think it's, I think it's. Interesting and cool. You know, I, I remember not that long ago getting kind of bullied and attacked on Instagram for saying like, do we run, really run outta eggs?

  Like, are we really running out of eggs? And and a couple, you know, doctors came after me for like, spreading misinformation and I was like, but it's not, there's a guy, Jonathan Tilley, he's been studying this for over 20 years now. Out of Northwestern or Northeastern. I always confuse them. But his name is definitely Jonathan [00:14:00] Tilley, and he's the head of biology at one of those universities.

  And he's showing like, no, there's ovarian stem cells that we have. You can see people that like, went through chemo or radiation on their ovaries, but then somehow we're still able to produce follicles and have children Like that doesn't make any sense. And so, you know, targeting and like really trying to understand what else is going on, you know, we also know women haven't been a part of research, you know, until very recently.

  And so.

  Michelle: This is a big deal. Like people don't realize.

  Aimee: Yeah, we based that theory of like, eggs are finite. You're running out of eggs on research from the 1960s that looked at Reese's monkeys and rats. It was never repeated in a human model for almost 40 years. They literally, it was a mathematical model looking at rats and Reese's monkeys over time and saying, oh, okay, so the reserve does go down.

  So that happens to women. That's it. You run outta eggs. That, that was the theory. No one questioned it. It's, it's an, no one has questioned it until fairly recently, and I think now we're getting a lot more information out there [00:15:00] and, and some of these medical facts are shifting and changing. I, you're still gonna run into the.

  Old school docs who were just gonna kind of, you know, dig their heels in. I mean, I think too though, aging does age us, you know, so our mitochondria become less effective and cellular division less effective. So we're more prone to chromosomal or genetic issues the older we are. But I don't think it's definitive just 'cause you're 47, you have X amount of, you know, chances or x amount of chromosomal things that are gonna happen.

  No, that's not the case. We can all age differently. So it's like the I, I tell people whenever they like push me on things, I'm like, just start looking into the world of regenerative medicine. Like that's where you should start. Because if it hasn't yet touched fertility yet, you know, I mean it's starting to, I think with doctors like me and things like that, but, that's where it's at. I mean, we're seeing this, we're seeing it with the peptide explosion. We're seeing it with, you know, just the anti-aging, like the mitochondrial, excuse me, the mitochondrial explosion. You know, we're learning more about food and [00:16:00] environment and toxins and, and they're aging us. I think one of the studies that I pulled for the new version of, yes, you can't get pregnant I might not quote it exactly, but it was the exposure to ultra processed foods and a MH levels and that women who ate.

  More ultra processed foods than those who did not had much lower A MH. And when you removed the ultra processed foods from their diet, within three months, their A MH on average doubled.

  Michelle: Wow, that's so significant. That's like not just like

  Aimee: That's insane. But like, yet we're told a MH, you know, that's it. This is your number. You know, like the way they used to talk about FSH they don't, not as much, you know, they don't say that as much of, oh, I can change, you know, or as it used to be, like, this is the gold standard. It never changes.

  Michelle: Yeah, it's a snapshot in time. It's so crazy. But you know what's really funny, Amy? I actually had the same question as you about, are we really born with all the exit we'll ever have? And I remember seeing a study that was done on a cancer drug. I don't know, you probably are familiar [00:17:00] with it, where they used it. I think it had to do with the ovaries, but they noticed that the ovaries would have more follicles, and they said,

  Aimee: like, and Jonathan Tilly, that's what he's looking at. That's the research. 'cause it started with, that's what triggered the research. It started with this cancer, these cancer patients where they were like, wait, they should, the ovaries should be dead like this. There's no, why are they, how do they have cells?

  How, how are they actively making follicles? Because I think it was direct chemo or radiation. Directed at the ovaries, it was like ovarian cancer patients, right? I think that's,

  Michelle: Something like that. It was something to do with it, like I think it was ovarian cancer, and then they weren't, of course, expecting that to be a result

  Aimee: Yeah. I think I, you know, I think truthfully, there's so much we don't know, and I would much rather everyone say that than to say, no, this is. This is the truth. This is what we function on. This is finite. You know that, that [00:18:00] doesn't show intelligence, right? I think there's, there's some study out there or some quote that's like, you know, the number one way to, to like see a lack of intelligence is, is to see people who just like, are unwilling to see it be another way.

  You know, it's just like, okay, you, you are not thinking outside the box. And that's what I always tell our, our patients of like, okay, you're clearly not getting the results you want. We need to find a new team who's willing to think outside the box, who's willing to try different things. Like that's, that's what we need.

  We can't keep doing the same thing and expect different results. But then also like, you know, talking about aging, like then how do we define, like you and I both have had women in their late forties do it. Like how, how, how do you define that then? How do you say it? Can they just be these anomalies?

  But you and I, you know, if we are talking about the relative population, we have smaller practices, you know what I mean? But like. All of us in the acupuncture world, we all probably are like, yeah, I've had 47 year olds. I've had 48 year olds. You know, I've seen like Murphy's had 50 year olds, 51 year olds with their own eggs.

  Michelle: Well, the oldest

  Aimee: that possible? It's

  Michelle: years old, naturally had a baby, Don Brooks [00:19:00] in England. And and I always compare it to the Roger Banister effect, where the guy wins the seven minute the four minute mile. He breaks the four minute mile, and then like months after that, a bunch of people break it.

  Like, why? Why did nobody break it up until somebody broke it?

  Aimee: And I think about that too in my practice. I feel like the more, almost like geared in I've gotten, or the more I've seen and the more hope. I used to think like 44, 45 was kind of the cutoff. And now I'm like, Hmm, I, I've had 48 year olds do it, so

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Aimee: why can't you? And also like.

  You know, and I know we're reaching all these different conversations and you and I are both, you know, holistic experts, but I also think perimenopausal support the right way. a woman still trying to conceive, using things like bioidentical, HRT can be extremely beneficial and we maintain the cycle, like we're using estrogen when we're supposed to, progesterone, when we're supposed to, if they need testosterone or DHEA.

  Obviously we're testing, we're not guessing. I'm [00:20:00] not saying go out there and start taking bioidentical HRT, but. That. I mean, even for me, I'm 51. My cycle has been wonky this year for the first time, but up until, and I've been playing with Bioidentical HRT for probably three to four years, you know, and I don't have any. My FSH is still in a good range. I don't have any hot flashes, I don't have vaginal dryness. I still have a sex drive, like all these things. So like, I think what I started to do and play around with was like I'm extending things like I'm giving myself and then hopefully I'm kind of missing this like big dip, right?

  Which we know is what comes with all the health events, but or negative health events. But I think about for our women with perimenopause, I mean, what we were doing, even from just a natural perspective is like, yeah, we're just nourishing and improving blood flow and circulation. We're, we're preventing things from kind of stopping and slowing down.

  We're keeping them going. And then if you wanna add in a little, a little HRT, that's bioidentical.

  Michelle: Right.

  Aimee: the game

  Michelle: It does for sure. A hundred percent. And it's something that we have available. And I do think that [00:21:00] obviously the bioidentical aspect of it makes a difference too. But yeah, why not use what we have and it, and now they're finding that it's not as bad as they originally said,

  Aimee: we knew that all

  Michelle: is a big deal.

  Aimee: at, we're looking at one study based on one

  Michelle: this is what happens.

  Aimee: they extrapolated it across the board and it's like, God. And that's like, that's what I mean of like, take some responsibility. You know what I mean? Like, that's unfair. That is so unfair what you did.

  It's so unfair.

  Michelle: it is. But it's like who has the mic? That's really what it is. I mean,

  Aimee: loud enough. Yeah. And who's got the deeper pockets? You know, I mean, it's layers and layers. Yeah.

  Michelle: Yeah, for sure. So I wanted to talk to you about rep rapamycin. That's another hot topic that's coming out about older women trying to conceive.

  Aimee: Yeah, it impacts the mTOR pathways, right? Which yeah, I might not know the entire pathway, but basically helps improve mitochondrial function. And [00:22:00] it's a drug that's been used for organ transplants for many, many, many years. People have started playing around with it for fertility. Think Dr. Amy, the Egg Whisperer, not me started using it in her practice.

  I think she's doing something like three to four grams a week.

  Michelle: So, yeah, at a much lower dose,

  Aimee: lower dose, like almost like a

  Michelle: than, than what it

  Aimee: kind of, it's considered at this point like a longevity medicine. Right. And so, but then there was a recent study, so there's now two studies that are going on, I think one at Columbia here in New York.

  And there was another one going on someplace else, but they published and it. It was still a decent size of women. I think a couple hundred. And they did one milligram of rapamycin per day for 21 to 28 days, kind of depending on the woman. And then they compared 'em to a control group. But what's cool is they also had comparisons to previous IVF cycles for these women.

  The women in the rapamycin group had more eggs retrieved, [00:23:00] more blast assist, and I think higher pregnancy rates. So much so like that. The day that study came out, I actually was in the clinic with Mur and he, I ran into him and he was like, that's it, rapamycin for everyone. Like, he was like, I'm sold, like sold.

  And you can, you know, I mean, again. I don't think everybody should be treating themselves like this, but you can get that online.

  Michelle: get

  Aimee: place you

  Michelle: Ageless Rx.

  Aimee: Yeah, h srx man. You can get it. And I think you, you have to be smart though. You're not supposed to conceive while you're on it.

  You do it before a cycle or before, like before an IF cycle or before a natural conception cycle. You're not doing it during, so you have to think about that. You have to take time off. I strongly would recommend though, that someone is managing the case and you're not just doing it on your own. And then, then how many cycles do you repeat it for?

  That I don't know. I think this study was just that one clip of the 21 to 28 days, so I'm not sure about like, the way Dr. Amy's doing. It's a little different, right? Where these people, they're just on it.

  Michelle: Mm-hmm. [00:24:00] Right?

  Aimee: And I can't speak to that, you know. But she's been, you know, she was the first one to use h human growth hormone in California, and then she hopped on the PRP bandwagon like very early on.

  And then she's, she's been the first one using rapamycin as well.

  Michelle: Amazing. And then there's something else that piqued my interest is ly. So like things like ottin you just take once a month.

  Aimee: Oh, the fi satin, is that what you said?

  Michelle: Ottin, yeah. You take it once a month, I think for three or five days, depending on the, the product. And it helps get rid of c senescent cells, zombie cells.

  Aimee: We just, where we, we just did redid rejuve repair, you know, the, the supplements that I have with me and Mark and we're adding Cetin at like the, the daily, like the regular low level dose to it because it's very promising, you know, or it's interesting, I'll say, you know, but that was, we had a call with our formulator it's gotta be at least six months ago, and he said to us, he was like, Cetin is the next one [00:25:00] you're going to hear the most about.

  From a mitochondrial perspective, from like a lytic perspective. And there's a couple of cool sites. What's the one? It's oral peptides oh my God. Health Jevity and it's Health. Jevity G with G. And it's health jev.com. You can put it in the show notes, but they have some really awesome

  Michelle: rev Genetics

  Aimee: different

  Michelle: or Health Gen. Oh, okay.

  Aimee: Health, but it's all these really smart PhDs and it's all oral.

  Michelle: Oh,

  Aimee: they have the BPC 1 57, they have the PEA, they have, they have like a re in, like they have some kind of lytic multi kind of thing.

  You know, they're, they're not

  Michelle: Amazing.

  Aimee: and there's also not a ton of data around for it, but.

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Aimee: Cool. Interesting. But I agree. It's like these things, you know, like even as astaxanthin, like we've known about that one, but that's another one that I think deserves

  Michelle: Antioxidant. Yeah, very, very good one. And also what I saw the studies on Odin was [00:26:00] that in, I think it was rats, it brought back ovulation or delayed menopause or Arian aging. And then there was also studies on endometriosis as well.

  Aimee: Oh really? Well, because like also because we know it's like the inflammation is crushing the mitochondria. It's crushing the quality. And so I think that's what it's doing. It's kind of like bringing things back online. It's almost like what we saw with the NMN or the NAD, you know? It's like, okay, it delayed menopausal, right?

  And like menopausal rats came, mice came back online and started ovulating again. So, you know, it's also to be argued of like, okay, but does it. Mean much in the context of just taking this one single nutrient. I don't know. That's what we don't know, you know? But it's also, you know, in the book too, that's what I did.

  I created these kind of like mitochondrial supplement stacks, you know, so like not taking everything every day, you know, and just kind of how to stack them and, and when, and [00:27:00] based on the current data and the dosing, which. It was cool and fun because it's also a lot, like, I always think about our girls and like how many supplements they're taking or who's doing IVs and injections and things like that.

  It's like, oh my gosh, it's a lot. I think the BPC 1 57 is pretty cool. That definitely has like an overall healing capacity,

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Aimee: you know, and, and kind of like tissue regeneration

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Aimee: maybe regeneration is too, too promising, but, you know, tissue repair.

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Aimee: That, that's been around the longest. So it's like, you know, I know some doctors who are using that, like hands down, that's in my practice for any, any gut protocol that I need to do, it's gonna heal the lining.

  Michelle: that injected

  Aimee: What was that?

  Michelle: injection

  Aimee: Or even orally, like how I found out about, he was through a, a physician friend who he does anti-aging medicine, and he was the one who told me, he connected me with them and he was like, he's like, I use their BPC 1 5 7. They have one with like PEA in it.

  And he was like, I've never seen. [00:28:00] Gut health heal faster.

  Michelle: Wow. Wow.

  Aimee: and he's been around a very long time. And, and even like Hyman and you know, Tony Robbins has his centers now too. They're, they're all connected to like one of these oral peptide companies, you know, and the second, the peptides are illegal in the us these, these companies will all start making the actual injections.

  Like right now, the biggest thing you have to be aware of is the injections that you're taking. If you go to like one of these wellness clinics and they have the BPC 1 5 7, or they have, you know, the Kisspeptin or. The Ella they are importing it from another country. A lot of the times that country is China and then they're reconstituting it in their labs. You wanna make sure that it's not peptides that are for research purposes, but they're peptides that have actually been like tested for endotoxins and things like that. So I think it's called pharmaceutical grade versus research grade. But none of these peptides [00:29:00] are technically legal in the us So they like, if you're getting them, you like, and we're not talking about GLP ones, we're talking about these other ones.

  If you're getting them, you really wanna know the source. So that's why I feel safer with my clients saying, go to hge, take their oral stuff. Like is it, is it probably a 10th as effective? Yes. But I don't know. It's still probably doing something. Yeah. And even for us with the, the cetin like sourcing that and, and kind of understanding the dosing and all of that, like sure.

  Maybe by the time the new repair product comes out, we'll we'll have it available in injections as well, but not everybody's down for that. And it's also can be really expensive. I don't

  Michelle: Yeah, it's, it's a lot more tough to

  Aimee: Yeah, I looked into this Ella and I think through Ageless Rx, and it's like I could get a three month supply for like a thousand dollars.

  I was like, well, that's expensive, you

  Michelle: is, that's nuts. Yeah. Very expensive. Yeah. You have to make it realistic for people to really do consistently. 'Cause otherwise it's just, it's, it's tough.

  Aimee: And then also we [00:30:00] just don't honestly have enough data. So we can't say this for certain is gonna be the thing that gets you your baby. We can't, no one can and any, if anybody is,

  Michelle: Run for the hills.

  Aimee: It is like, I mean, I, before we talked, we, we share some clients and it's like this one client who came to me, like, it's, it's a, it's a colleague or a friend that has this like med spa and literally sent her home with this list of like, these are all the peptides I can inject you with so that you can have a, a better IVF next time.

  And she, I'm happy, sent it to me and asked me for my feedback. And I was like, oh, I a how much is this gonna cost you? But b. None that this is guaranteed. Like, it's like I, let's, let's be honest with ourselves, you know? And then so we kind of just picked and choose what we thought would maybe be smart to try.

  But we also don't know how everyone is gonna react, you know, just like anything.

  Michelle: [00:31:00] Yeah, for sure. And then what else did I wanna ask? I was gonna ask, so talk about peptides. Actually, let's kind of go to that. 'cause we, we brushed upon a couple of different ones and what are peptides for people who are not familiar with what they are and how can they help?

  Aimee: technically exist in our body, right? They're proteins and chains of proteins that exist in our body, and then what we're doing is. Taking them in at much higher doses, but they're technically, like, they're synergistic, is how I would look at it with our body and our function. So these were isolated compounds that were like, oh, you know, like rapamycin, oh, this impacts the mTOR pathway.

  We know this for a fact, so we're gonna use it here. So it's, you know, it's created based on physiology. And technically should be safe. It's more like the, the sourcing and the dosing and the individual [00:32:00] client.

  Michelle: So there's different types that do have different functions.

  Aimee: Oh, they all have different functions, right? Like, I mean, the GLP one is the most common, right? So we know it's working on these GLP one receptors, which is helping with insulin regulation in the body. You know, it's a metabolic and it's, I think it's magic for the people who need it, you know? We were talking about that before we went live, and it's like.

  Any of my clients, like it's being used more and more. I think infertility because so many of our girls have insulin resistance, which is why we've been working on diet and lifestyle with them for so long, and when to eat and how to eat and how much to eat, right? We're fixing insulin resistance is what we've been doing.

  Now. There's this drug that can do it pretty fast, you know, and so. But you really, really wanna know that you need it because if you take it and you don't need it, it could backfire. If you take it and you don't follow the right diet and the right lifestyle, it could backfire. And we know that from a JLP one 'cause it's been out for a very long time.

  But this, this is the longest. It's being like the, i I would [00:33:00] say the most amount of people it's being used on in a short period of time. It seems like everyone's taking it. You know, I worry about that long-term repercussions. There's a lot we don't know. You know, I'd liken that to, you know, some, some said vaccines, same thing.

  You know, where you're like, oh, I don't, I don't know that I'm playing around with that. Vaccines are different than peptides, but just that same thing where I'm like, I don't have enough longitudinal data. I need to collect more information. But like I think GLP ones are a good example. Like, we're learning the best way to live your life while taking it.

  So not just that you inject yourself and that's the quick fix and you never have to do anything else. If you do that, I think you can have negative repercussions for sure.

  Michelle: And also the dosage we were talking about that too. In some cases people would benefit from a microdose,

  Aimee: Yeah. I,

  Michelle: rather than having like a really high dose.

  Aimee: I just leave you, I'm sorry. Like a low and slow kind of situation, you know, I think it's much more important. Yeah, and I have girls that, you know, are very insulin resistant. Maybe metformin was what was recommended [00:34:00] to them prior. They're trying, the GLP ones, they're seeing a good difference.

  But same thing, you know, we're, we're staying at. Either the, the starting dose or the microdosing. I mean, I'm not a physician. I can't manage that and I can't prescribe that. But I've learned enough and I work with the physician. And then we are also looking at labs, you know, so, like for instance, I just saw a girl's labs today and they were thinking about giving her, gLP one for suspected insulin resistance. Her lectin and her insulin are low. I mean, they're below a three each. Like, she's, she's actually the opposite of the case. Like she, if you give it to her, it's gonna shut her down.

  Michelle: Right.

  Aimee: gonna go offline because everybody's gonna be like, oh my God.

  Like, it's, it's almost like, at least, at least from what I understand and know, that's how I see that it would go down. I, I could be wrong. I haven't seen enough of these cases, but it seems to work really well for the people with. High fasting glucose, their A1C is trending up their insulin, especially fasting insulin is high, like above a 10 above an [00:35:00] 11 is really, you know, you really wanna be in this.

  Everybody's different, but I would say. Four to 10 range is a good range for insulin, fasting glucose. You want it below 90. If you see that, that's another, like, here's an interesting story I'll share of like, one of my girls, she, she's actually 47. She has a significant ovarian reserve. Like when they do retrievals, she gets like 30 eggs.

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Aimee: She's doing IVF to test for genetics and, you know, with that many eggs, she felt really confident. But I meet her by the time she's already through like three retrievals and fertilization. Like she'd get 28 eggs, like two would fertilize and then like one, if it made, it would come back. You know, pl So,

  Michelle: have PCOS?

  Aimee: but that's the thing.

  She didn't, she appeared that way, meaning over ovarian wise and high a MH. She was a very fit, lean woman, like an athlete, a professional athlete. [00:36:00] So she could have had it at a younger age, but her lifestyle has like not shown it. But she could be lean. PCOS too. Her A1C is perfect though. But. So first we changed the medications because they were coming at a really high dose because of how many eggs she had left.

  So we first cut the meds in half, same eggs, retrieved fertilization rate, like almost one to 50%, which was amazing, but same thing, still keep coming back. Abnormal. Digging into her labs, you could see her fasting glucose started to trend up over the years and same thing with her. Insulin started to trend up.

  We never even checked her. Leptin actually trending up over, over the years. And even like in this last year, quite a bit like I think the IVF meds maybe pushed her kind of over an edge. She tries like a micro dose of a GLP one, not even that long. Two months does another cycle. She had an 80% fertilization rate.

  She got two euclids and one low level mosaic.[00:37:00]

  Michelle: Wow,

  Aimee: I mean, granted, I had all, you know, like she had been working with me maybe for four months at that point. We were on the low STEM protocol, but in my, you know, in, in my opinion and

  Michelle: It usually takes a little longer for those kind of things

  Aimee: insane. Like, so now we're prepping for a transfer.

  I mean, she's psyched, you know? We'll see, obviously like there's all these things, but it's like one example. If you need it, it could be really helpful.

  Michelle: That's

  Aimee: And women in perimenopause. The thing is, we become less and less insulin sensitive. And so when we're treating these women in their forties perimenopause is gonna kick in different times for different women.

  But we're, when we're treating where things are starting to go different or shift a little bit, we should be looking at metabolic health and then thinking about these things. And I still think we could do it ourselves with our herbs and our lifestyle and all our things. We, we have that. But I, I do of respect efficiency, you know.

  Michelle: No, we gotta use all the tools that we can [00:38:00] get. One quick question 'cause I know you have to go. LDNI remember you talking about that and that's an exciting new thing. Or it kind of newer, you know, not people are starting to like learn about it. Again, another type of medicine that at full dose does one thing, but then at low dose does another.

  Aimee: and it's, it's just basically like, like I just call it like a mini steroid. That's kind of how that's, that's how I see it, of just like, it's just this, it's just. Kind of breaking down this low level chronic inflammation. And you don't necessarily feel like world's different when you take it, but you see the difference.

  So for us, and it's been like this, I I'd say at least eight years, I, you know, every endometriosis patient if we know she has it,

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Aimee: and then any the autoimmune patient. And then now you're starting to see like the fertility doctors are using it. Like I see CNY, it's in every one of their protocols. Now. Every girl is on low dose naltrexone.

  And the research is cool. And there's that other guy, he's got a bunch of stuff on YouTube. I'm, I forget his name, but he's [00:39:00] really into it. From a fertility perspective. I can get you his name for show notes if you want. I just can't think of it in this moment.

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Aimee: yeah, I think, I think all of it layered together.

  But I would also just say of like the template that we, we start our clients with, you know, and then obviously always looking at mal factor, looking at uterine, looking at immune stuff like. The template is still really important. I think all these things are like, you know,

  Michelle: Add-ons.

  Aimee: Yeah. Add-ons. And with the understanding that not everyone is it gonna work for everyone, which is the hard part.

  'cause it's like you'd like a guarantee, especially if

  Michelle: Of course, but humans don't function like that.

  Aimee: But it's still like, what I still see in the data, and I know what we both see clinically is like, it's consistency and frequency. It's like there's not just like one shot you're gonna do and a month later you're gonna, you know, get your boobs.

  I mean, I did just kind of tell a story like that, but like, I just think she's, she'd been working at this, like, she had fine tuned her diet. Like she, she had, like, when she came to me I was kinda like, you don't really need me. I'll give you [00:40:00] advice on the IVF and the meds and I'll look at your labs, but like, you kind of have things on lockdown.

  But she was stumped. Why? Why is this not happening? Why is this not happening? You know? And, and could have been just that the insulin resistance that was starting to show up was not allowing her body to properly utilize everything she was doing is basically how I'd say. So now all of a sudden you, you help facilitate like proper metabolism and

  Michelle: Right.

  Aimee: the eggs.

  Michelle: Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, it's almost like we were talking about it before, it's almost like a block to your ability to access energy when you're insulin

  Aimee: what it is. It's, and it's like right. For us, it'd be like dampness. It's like flemmi sticky stuff, just hanging out in there, not letting things

  Michelle: getting in the way.

  Aimee: and then it, you put this in and it's like, because even like berberine will be like, kind of essentially, and like, what is that to us, that's like a heat clearing medicine.

  You know what I mean? It's we're like, we're getting through like the wreckage in a sense. We're like. Almost zapping it out. It's kind of what these op ones are doing.

  Michelle: Amazing. Amy, I can always talk to you and pick your brain for hours. And [00:41:00] of course, Amy's my mentor by the way. I actually do schedule calls with her to get to pick her brain because it helps my practice so much, my ability to help women. So like, I'm so thankful,

  Aimee: I'm always like, I got a Miami girl. Yeah. Here we go.

  Michelle: thank you. Same. And and of course I can keep talking to you for hours, but I know you have to go.

  You, you're a busy woman.

  Aimee: Waiting in my reboot group

  Michelle: yeah. So thank you so much for coming on. If, okay, so where can people find everything? All the, all

  Aimee: Yeah. So, I'll get you the, the link for pre-orders and things like that for the book. But everything's gonna be on my website, amy rep.com. Follow me on Instagram and TikTok. That's where like all the information will be shared. And then obviously the book is available anywhere books are sold. Right now it'll only be in English.

  I'm hoping to do an audio book as well. And then last time it was published it did get, it did go into a few languages, so hopefully that will be the case as well.

  Michelle: I'm sure it will be 'cause it's such a gift to the world. Thank you so much, Amy. [00:42:00] I always love talking to you. Have a great day.

  Aimee: you too. Bye. Okay. I am gonna.

Ep 378 Can You Improve Egg Quality After 40? PRP, Peptides & Fertility Breakthroughs with Aimee Raupp

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, Michelle sits down with Aimee Raupp (@aimeeraupp) to explore the latest breakthroughs in fertility science and ovarian rejuvenation. From PRP (platelet-rich plasma) therapy and rapamycin to senolytics, peptides, and low-dose naltrexone (LDN), this conversation dives into emerging tools that may support egg quality, ovarian function, and fertility after 35.

They also challenge long-standing scientific dogma around ovarian aging and discuss whether women are truly born with all the eggs they’ll ever have. If you’re navigating diminished ovarian reserve, PCOS, endometriosis, insulin resistance, or age-related fertility concerns, this episode offers cutting-edge insights and practical hope grounded in evolving research.

Key Takeaways:

• PRP ovarian rejuvenation may improve ovarian function and support natural conception in some women.

• Emerging research questions the belief that women are born with all their eggs, opening new conversations about ovarian aging and regeneration.

• Rapamycin and senolytics (like fisetin) are being studied for their potential role in delaying ovarian aging and reducing inflammation.

• Peptide therapy may support hormonal balance, egg quality, insulin sensitivity, and conditions like PCOS.

• Low Dose Naltrexone (LDN) may help regulate immune function, reduce inflammation, and support fertility outcomes in certain cases.
  

Disclaimer: The information shared on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider before making any changes to your health or fertility care.

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• Transcript

  Michelle: Welcome back to the podcast, Amy. I'm so excited to have you on.

  Aimee: you, Michelle. I think this is what my third time Is it? Yeah.

  Michelle: maybe fourth, I feel like.

  Aimee: exciting. Thank you.

  Michelle: So first of all, congratulations on the new edition of Yes, you Can Get Pregnant, which is so exciting. We had a little pre-talk and I'm very excited to start picking your brain on that.

  Aimee: Yeah, it's been an exciting revision. I think, you know, as I was saying to you before we started recording. It was about 10 years. It's really 11 years since I wrote the first version. And it's, it's really awesome to see. I mean, it's not awesome to see the increased rise in, in fertility. Challenges like that, you know, we've gone up like at least another 10 to 20% of women impacted. [00:03:00] And, and now male factor is a huge piece. But what I enjoyed seeing was so much of the content, you know, and the recommendations that I made 11 years ago that you and I have been making since we've, been out of grad school. all about living in accordance with the DAO and getting back in touch with nature and, and doing things like simply.

  And like circadian rhythm, which we didn't really even have a term for. I guess we did have a term, but we didn't really use that or nervous system work, all of that. What's, what I found validating I think is, is the amount of research that's come out in the last 10 years. Kind of validating all the things, like validating, no, we do need more natural light.

  The blue light is doing damage. You know, sperm health clearly has. Has significantly declined. The environmental toxins are, are really seriously doing damage, you know, ultra processed foods. So there's just this vast volume of research now that backs up much of what we were taught and, and have been, you know, [00:04:00] educating the others on for, for, you know, if we count Chinese medicine for thousands of years, you know, so that part is, is fun, you know, to just.

  You know, I was telling you before we went live too, like my, my citations and resources in the book like went up 10 x if not more. Like my editor was like, we have to actually just have its own PDF and people can download for this. There's way too many citations in the book. Like, I can't, I didn't, I didn't account for this. So, you know, that's fun. And then I increased, you know, content around, preparing for IVF, it's has its own chapter now. Improving egg and sperm quality over the age of 35 has its own chapter now. Ovarian rejuvenation. I did a chapter with Dr. Zaha Murphy and talked about ozone and PRP and HBO and laser and peptides and, you know, so lots of, I think, you know, we've really brought all of the newer information to the plate and into the book, and so that's exciting and I really, I hope.

  You know, it's [00:05:00] used as, almost like an encyclopedia of resources. Like, just got so much information and, and really, so I think still has that, that deeply empowering message of like, you have a lot of power here and here, you know, here are the ways you can connect the dots for yourself because, you know, again, as we were discussing before we went live, that, we now know, and I think that the, the research really supports this, that most all unexplained fertility challenges.

  Have an explanation and, you know, they're rooted in inflammation, immune disorders, you know, maybe structural issues. not just all your eggs are bad because you're over the age of 35, which can't wait for that stigma to just leave the room.

  Michelle: A hundred percent. Oh my God. Totally. I feel the same way. And it's exciting. It's, what's exciting is that we're coming on a lot of amazing research and new technology. PRP is exciting. I definitely wanna pick your brain on that. Because I've heard you know, there's, there's obviously, I've had doctors that were like, no, maybe it's [00:06:00] not safe for the ovaries.

  I know Dr. Mur, he's had a lot of great success with it. And you work

  Aimee: Yeah. And then there was a recent meta analysis that was not, you know, he did not do that research. That was someone looking at all the research that's been going on, right. Meta analysis, obviously. Showing. Yeah, it, it has marked impacts on improving a MH antral follicle count, BLASTY rate IVF outcomes.

  You know, and so I still feel, and what I see clinically and feel good about saying is in, I think 50%, five zero of the cases that do the ovarian PRP see positive benefits and 50% just don't see any benefits. But I don't see negatives.

  Michelle: Okay. That's amazing. So what are some of the positive benefits you've seen?

  Aimee: The A MH going up the antra follicle count. More, you know, if women are doing IVF, you see? Just more get fertilized more. Get blast. Get to

  Michelle: Wow, amazing. I've seen, I've seen that [00:07:00] happen. I've seen it where I've talked to people up north that went to see him and they were trying to conceive naturally and, and it wasn't working for years. And then they went to see him and a couple of months later, 'cause it does take, I guess a couple of months for it to really like show up.

  And then, and then they would get pregnant like naturally. So I'm like, okay, well, you know, obviously must have done something. Mm-hmm.

  Aimee: think it, it, you know, it is your own growth factors and so, so I think for all the listeners, you know, human growth hormone was like kind of the hot ticket for a while. Like add HDH to your protocols. This is your own HDH. That's how I would look at that. You know, these are your own growth factors and that's, I think that's even better than borrowing from, you know, however these, the human growth hormone is being made or, or, or created and where it's coming from. then, you know, it, it is basically like the other thing that we really know now and can confidently say is we don't run out of eggs. Like, yes, the pool is declining, but we now know that even [00:08:00] women in menopause, and this is, you know.

  I think, I think there's multiple research studies that show the same thing. At this point, women in menopause still have about a thousand eggs left in their ovaries. And so it's not about running out, it's not about the pool. I mean the pool declines. I'm not, not saying that, but it, you don't just wake up and one day they're all gone.

  It's really about they start losing communication. They go dormant. And what the PRP seems to be doing is waking up those dormant follicles.

  Michelle: Amazing. And then

  Aimee: the game, not creating new ones. Now there are people doing, and not Murphy's one of them, but there's other people as well doing stem cell outside of the US 'cause that's not currently legal.

  That theoretically is actually causing you to create new eggs in your ovaries.

  Michelle: That's incredible. Let's talk about that a little bit. I know it's not in the US but I'm just really curious. So what is that technology? 'cause that sounds really cool.

  Aimee: mean, they're using placental stem cells, so they're buying them from, I think there's a bank in Colorado actually [00:09:00] that is doing it. You can get 'em in different places like Panama, a big place. I think Dubai is another place. And these are so placental sorry. Placental cord blood stem cells. That these are apparently it's the word like omnipotent, like they can become anything and they don't have to be your cord blood stem cells.

  They can be anyone's, it's just like a bank of these stem cells. And then you, so you do the PRP, so you draw the blood, do the platelets, you're mixing that in with the stem cells and then injecting that into the ovaries and then. New eggs should be theoretically created. It's hard to know for certain if that's happening because I don't think anyone's done like a test of like staining the old ones to see what happens with the new ones.

  You know what I mean? Like, 'cause we're human trials that that's kind of hard to do. Perhaps it's being done on the animal model, but then people would argue, you know, is that the same? So I have seen girls with like POI, [00:10:00] you know, like they're young, they premature ovarian insufficiency, like they got nothing, they're not cycling, that kind of thing.

  Or women in menopause and it seems to be kind of bringing them out of that. Again, not working for everyone, and there's really not enough. I haven't seen enough of my clients do it clinically for me to have like a, a solid, like, you know, go and do it. I, and Dr. Murphy would say he likes to like layer it in, you know, first to start with regular PRP.

  Then he does the adipose, which is where he's getting stem cells from your own fat cells.

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Aimee: And that can be done in the us. And then there's the stem cells that's happening, you know, for him in The Bahamas. And there's also people doing mitochondrial replacement therapy. There's like CN Ys doing that in Mexico.

  Doc, there's whatever doctor his name is in Albania is doing it. Me, he's doing it. There's a guy in Spain doing it. That's where you're borrowing mitochondria from a donor egg [00:11:00] and taking out your. Older mitochondria or malfunctioning mitochondria and switching that. So it's still your genetics. You still need donor eggs, but you're not borrowing biology and genetics.

  You're just borrowing mitochondria

  Michelle: Right. Which has a different set of genetics anyway

  Aimee: Yeah, exactly.

  Michelle: your own body.

  Aimee: Yeah, so it's you know, the, the technology is cool. I think it's moving at a rapid pace, like from what I can see. I also there was recently a post Dak Shepherd had said something recently, like, I'll, I told my girls that when they turn 18, I'll, I'll help, I'll pay for them to freeze their eggs and any, you know, that went viral.

  And I think you said it like on people.com or something like that. And you know, I, I did a story on it 'cause I was like, I think, I think this is great. Like, I think a, it a, first of all, it's nice that, you know, he has the money that he can do that not everybody has those resources and the ability, but b, by the time his children are 18, that's like another decade or so, if not more.

  We might not need eggs. We might be able to generate them just from any of your DNA. So a swab inside the [00:12:00] cheek. And then when I first wrote, yes, you can get pregnant, I had interviewed Dr. Hugh Taylor. He is, I think he still is the head of reproductive medicine at Yale. And he said to me, he's like, yeah, probably in 10 to 15 years I'll actually be out of a job.

  He's like, because we'll be able to make e eggs from swabbing the inside of a cheek. Like we'll be able to just generate eggs for, for you at whatever age you are inside a lab and then fertilize that, make an embryo and that is being done. I don't know that it's been done human wise, but it's definitely being done in a lab.

  I'm not sure whose eggs they're using, some mammal, but that's.

  Michelle: That's fascinating.

  Aimee: too. Yeah,

  Michelle: Well, they're mammals. I mean, we're mammals, you know, so there's gotta be, if it works, there's gotta be some way to make it work on humans as well.

  Aimee: And I think that's part of the research that's going on that I think is also really amazing and I hope, I hope everyone who's listening gets, you know, time to have access to it, but like studying, why are we the only mammals that actually can.

  Procreate after a [00:13:00] certain age. Like why do our eggs go dormant? What is that piece? You know, there's a little bit looking to the kisspeptin and that and that peptide, and apparently that, I guess, declines with age and that keeps the ovarian reserve abundant. I've had some patients use the Kisspeptin peptide.

  I've not seen. Any success with that. But, but kind of researching why, why do we downregulate our reproduction at a certain time in our life, and why do men not, you know? And so looking at other mammals trying to understand that you know, I think it's, I think it's. Interesting and cool. You know, I, I remember not that long ago getting kind of bullied and attacked on Instagram for saying like, do we run, really run outta eggs?

  Like, are we really running out of eggs? And and a couple, you know, doctors came after me for like, spreading misinformation and I was like, but it's not, there's a guy, Jonathan Tilley, he's been studying this for over 20 years now. Out of Northwestern or Northeastern. I always confuse them. But his name is definitely Jonathan [00:14:00] Tilley, and he's the head of biology at one of those universities.

  And he's showing like, no, there's ovarian stem cells that we have. You can see people that like, went through chemo or radiation on their ovaries, but then somehow we're still able to produce follicles and have children Like that doesn't make any sense. And so, you know, targeting and like really trying to understand what else is going on, you know, we also know women haven't been a part of research, you know, until very recently.

  And so.

  Michelle: This is a big deal. Like people don't realize.

  Aimee: Yeah, we based that theory of like, eggs are finite. You're running out of eggs on research from the 1960s that looked at Reese's monkeys and rats. It was never repeated in a human model for almost 40 years. They literally, it was a mathematical model looking at rats and Reese's monkeys over time and saying, oh, okay, so the reserve does go down.

  So that happens to women. That's it. You run outta eggs. That, that was the theory. No one questioned it. It's, it's an, no one has questioned it until fairly recently, and I think now we're getting a lot more information out there [00:15:00] and, and some of these medical facts are shifting and changing. I, you're still gonna run into the.

  Old school docs who were just gonna kind of, you know, dig their heels in. I mean, I think too though, aging does age us, you know, so our mitochondria become less effective and cellular division less effective. So we're more prone to chromosomal or genetic issues the older we are. But I don't think it's definitive just 'cause you're 47, you have X amount of, you know, chances or x amount of chromosomal things that are gonna happen.

  No, that's not the case. We can all age differently. So it's like the I, I tell people whenever they like push me on things, I'm like, just start looking into the world of regenerative medicine. Like that's where you should start. Because if it hasn't yet touched fertility yet, you know, I mean it's starting to, I think with doctors like me and things like that, but, that's where it's at. I mean, we're seeing this, we're seeing it with the peptide explosion. We're seeing it with, you know, just the anti-aging, like the mitochondrial, excuse me, the mitochondrial explosion. You know, we're learning more about food and [00:16:00] environment and toxins and, and they're aging us. I think one of the studies that I pulled for the new version of, yes, you can't get pregnant I might not quote it exactly, but it was the exposure to ultra processed foods and a MH levels and that women who ate.

  More ultra processed foods than those who did not had much lower A MH. And when you removed the ultra processed foods from their diet, within three months, their A MH on average doubled.

  Michelle: Wow, that's so significant. That's like not just like

  Aimee: That's insane. But like, yet we're told a MH, you know, that's it. This is your number. You know, like the way they used to talk about FSH they don't, not as much, you know, they don't say that as much of, oh, I can change, you know, or as it used to be, like, this is the gold standard. It never changes.

  Michelle: Yeah, it's a snapshot in time. It's so crazy. But you know what's really funny, Amy? I actually had the same question as you about, are we really born with all the exit we'll ever have? And I remember seeing a study that was done on a cancer drug. I don't know, you probably are familiar [00:17:00] with it, where they used it. I think it had to do with the ovaries, but they noticed that the ovaries would have more follicles, and they said,

  Aimee: like, and Jonathan Tilly, that's what he's looking at. That's the research. 'cause it started with, that's what triggered the research. It started with this cancer, these cancer patients where they were like, wait, they should, the ovaries should be dead like this. There's no, why are they, how do they have cells?

  How, how are they actively making follicles? Because I think it was direct chemo or radiation. Directed at the ovaries, it was like ovarian cancer patients, right? I think that's,

  Michelle: Something like that. It was something to do with it, like I think it was ovarian cancer, and then they weren't, of course, expecting that to be a result

  Aimee: Yeah. I think I, you know, I think truthfully, there's so much we don't know, and I would much rather everyone say that than to say, no, this is. This is the truth. This is what we function on. This is finite. You know that, that [00:18:00] doesn't show intelligence, right? I think there's, there's some study out there or some quote that's like, you know, the number one way to, to like see a lack of intelligence is, is to see people who just like, are unwilling to see it be another way.

  You know, it's just like, okay, you, you are not thinking outside the box. And that's what I always tell our, our patients of like, okay, you're clearly not getting the results you want. We need to find a new team who's willing to think outside the box, who's willing to try different things. Like that's, that's what we need.

  We can't keep doing the same thing and expect different results. But then also like, you know, talking about aging, like then how do we define, like you and I both have had women in their late forties do it. Like how, how, how do you define that then? How do you say it? Can they just be these anomalies?

  But you and I, you know, if we are talking about the relative population, we have smaller practices, you know what I mean? But like. All of us in the acupuncture world, we all probably are like, yeah, I've had 47 year olds. I've had 48 year olds. You know, I've seen like Murphy's had 50 year olds, 51 year olds with their own eggs.

  Michelle: Well, the oldest

  Aimee: that possible? It's

  Michelle: years old, naturally had a baby, Don Brooks [00:19:00] in England. And and I always compare it to the Roger Banister effect, where the guy wins the seven minute the four minute mile. He breaks the four minute mile, and then like months after that, a bunch of people break it.

  Like, why? Why did nobody break it up until somebody broke it?

  Aimee: And I think about that too in my practice. I feel like the more, almost like geared in I've gotten, or the more I've seen and the more hope. I used to think like 44, 45 was kind of the cutoff. And now I'm like, Hmm, I, I've had 48 year olds do it, so

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Aimee: why can't you? And also like.

  You know, and I know we're reaching all these different conversations and you and I are both, you know, holistic experts, but I also think perimenopausal support the right way. a woman still trying to conceive, using things like bioidentical, HRT can be extremely beneficial and we maintain the cycle, like we're using estrogen when we're supposed to, progesterone, when we're supposed to, if they need testosterone or DHEA.

  Obviously we're testing, we're not guessing. I'm [00:20:00] not saying go out there and start taking bioidentical HRT, but. That. I mean, even for me, I'm 51. My cycle has been wonky this year for the first time, but up until, and I've been playing with Bioidentical HRT for probably three to four years, you know, and I don't have any. My FSH is still in a good range. I don't have any hot flashes, I don't have vaginal dryness. I still have a sex drive, like all these things. So like, I think what I started to do and play around with was like I'm extending things like I'm giving myself and then hopefully I'm kind of missing this like big dip, right?

  Which we know is what comes with all the health events, but or negative health events. But I think about for our women with perimenopause, I mean, what we were doing, even from just a natural perspective is like, yeah, we're just nourishing and improving blood flow and circulation. We're, we're preventing things from kind of stopping and slowing down.

  We're keeping them going. And then if you wanna add in a little, a little HRT, that's bioidentical.

  Michelle: Right.

  Aimee: the game

  Michelle: It does for sure. A hundred percent. And it's something that we have available. And I do think that [00:21:00] obviously the bioidentical aspect of it makes a difference too. But yeah, why not use what we have and it, and now they're finding that it's not as bad as they originally said,

  Aimee: we knew that all

  Michelle: is a big deal.

  Aimee: at, we're looking at one study based on one

  Michelle: this is what happens.

  Aimee: they extrapolated it across the board and it's like, God. And that's like, that's what I mean of like, take some responsibility. You know what I mean? Like, that's unfair. That is so unfair what you did.

  It's so unfair.

  Michelle: it is. But it's like who has the mic? That's really what it is. I mean,

  Aimee: loud enough. Yeah. And who's got the deeper pockets? You know, I mean, it's layers and layers. Yeah.

  Michelle: Yeah, for sure. So I wanted to talk to you about rep rapamycin. That's another hot topic that's coming out about older women trying to conceive.

  Aimee: Yeah, it impacts the mTOR pathways, right? Which yeah, I might not know the entire pathway, but basically helps improve mitochondrial function. And [00:22:00] it's a drug that's been used for organ transplants for many, many, many years. People have started playing around with it for fertility. Think Dr. Amy, the Egg Whisperer, not me started using it in her practice.

  I think she's doing something like three to four grams a week.

  Michelle: So, yeah, at a much lower dose,

  Aimee: lower dose, like almost like a

  Michelle: than, than what it

  Aimee: kind of, it's considered at this point like a longevity medicine. Right. And so, but then there was a recent study, so there's now two studies that are going on, I think one at Columbia here in New York.

  And there was another one going on someplace else, but they published and it. It was still a decent size of women. I think a couple hundred. And they did one milligram of rapamycin per day for 21 to 28 days, kind of depending on the woman. And then they compared 'em to a control group. But what's cool is they also had comparisons to previous IVF cycles for these women.

  The women in the rapamycin group had more eggs retrieved, [00:23:00] more blast assist, and I think higher pregnancy rates. So much so like that. The day that study came out, I actually was in the clinic with Mur and he, I ran into him and he was like, that's it, rapamycin for everyone. Like, he was like, I'm sold, like sold.

  And you can, you know, I mean, again. I don't think everybody should be treating themselves like this, but you can get that online.

  Michelle: get

  Aimee: place you

  Michelle: Ageless Rx.

  Aimee: Yeah, h srx man. You can get it. And I think you, you have to be smart though. You're not supposed to conceive while you're on it.

  You do it before a cycle or before, like before an IF cycle or before a natural conception cycle. You're not doing it during, so you have to think about that. You have to take time off. I strongly would recommend though, that someone is managing the case and you're not just doing it on your own. And then, then how many cycles do you repeat it for?

  That I don't know. I think this study was just that one clip of the 21 to 28 days, so I'm not sure about like, the way Dr. Amy's doing. It's a little different, right? Where these people, they're just on it.

  Michelle: Mm-hmm. [00:24:00] Right?

  Aimee: And I can't speak to that, you know. But she's been, you know, she was the first one to use h human growth hormone in California, and then she hopped on the PRP bandwagon like very early on.

  And then she's, she's been the first one using rapamycin as well.

  Michelle: Amazing. And then there's something else that piqued my interest is ly. So like things like ottin you just take once a month.

  Aimee: Oh, the fi satin, is that what you said?

  Michelle: Ottin, yeah. You take it once a month, I think for three or five days, depending on the, the product. And it helps get rid of c senescent cells, zombie cells.

  Aimee: We just, where we, we just did redid rejuve repair, you know, the, the supplements that I have with me and Mark and we're adding Cetin at like the, the daily, like the regular low level dose to it because it's very promising, you know, or it's interesting, I'll say, you know, but that was, we had a call with our formulator it's gotta be at least six months ago, and he said to us, he was like, Cetin is the next one [00:25:00] you're going to hear the most about.

  From a mitochondrial perspective, from like a lytic perspective. And there's a couple of cool sites. What's the one? It's oral peptides oh my God. Health Jevity and it's Health. Jevity G with G. And it's health jev.com. You can put it in the show notes, but they have some really awesome

  Michelle: rev Genetics

  Aimee: different

  Michelle: or Health Gen. Oh, okay.

  Aimee: Health, but it's all these really smart PhDs and it's all oral.

  Michelle: Oh,

  Aimee: they have the BPC 1 57, they have the PEA, they have, they have like a re in, like they have some kind of lytic multi kind of thing.

  You know, they're, they're not

  Michelle: Amazing.

  Aimee: and there's also not a ton of data around for it, but.

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Aimee: Cool. Interesting. But I agree. It's like these things, you know, like even as astaxanthin, like we've known about that one, but that's another one that I think deserves

  Michelle: Antioxidant. Yeah, very, very good one. And also what I saw the studies on Odin was [00:26:00] that in, I think it was rats, it brought back ovulation or delayed menopause or Arian aging. And then there was also studies on endometriosis as well.

  Aimee: Oh really? Well, because like also because we know it's like the inflammation is crushing the mitochondria. It's crushing the quality. And so I think that's what it's doing. It's kind of like bringing things back online. It's almost like what we saw with the NMN or the NAD, you know? It's like, okay, it delayed menopausal, right?

  And like menopausal rats came, mice came back online and started ovulating again. So, you know, it's also to be argued of like, okay, but does it. Mean much in the context of just taking this one single nutrient. I don't know. That's what we don't know, you know? But it's also, you know, in the book too, that's what I did.

  I created these kind of like mitochondrial supplement stacks, you know, so like not taking everything every day, you know, and just kind of how to stack them and, and when, and [00:27:00] based on the current data and the dosing, which. It was cool and fun because it's also a lot, like, I always think about our girls and like how many supplements they're taking or who's doing IVs and injections and things like that.

  It's like, oh my gosh, it's a lot. I think the BPC 1 57 is pretty cool. That definitely has like an overall healing capacity,

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Aimee: you know, and, and kind of like tissue regeneration

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Aimee: maybe regeneration is too, too promising, but, you know, tissue repair.

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Aimee: That, that's been around the longest. So it's like, you know, I know some doctors who are using that, like hands down, that's in my practice for any, any gut protocol that I need to do, it's gonna heal the lining.

  Michelle: that injected

  Aimee: What was that?

  Michelle: injection

  Aimee: Or even orally, like how I found out about, he was through a, a physician friend who he does anti-aging medicine, and he was the one who told me, he connected me with them and he was like, he's like, I use their BPC 1 5 7. They have one with like PEA in it.

  And he was like, I've never seen. [00:28:00] Gut health heal faster.

  Michelle: Wow. Wow.

  Aimee: and he's been around a very long time. And, and even like Hyman and you know, Tony Robbins has his centers now too. They're, they're all connected to like one of these oral peptide companies, you know, and the second, the peptides are illegal in the us these, these companies will all start making the actual injections.

  Like right now, the biggest thing you have to be aware of is the injections that you're taking. If you go to like one of these wellness clinics and they have the BPC 1 5 7, or they have, you know, the Kisspeptin or. The Ella they are importing it from another country. A lot of the times that country is China and then they're reconstituting it in their labs. You wanna make sure that it's not peptides that are for research purposes, but they're peptides that have actually been like tested for endotoxins and things like that. So I think it's called pharmaceutical grade versus research grade. But none of these peptides [00:29:00] are technically legal in the us So they like, if you're getting them, you like, and we're not talking about GLP ones, we're talking about these other ones.

  If you're getting them, you really wanna know the source. So that's why I feel safer with my clients saying, go to hge, take their oral stuff. Like is it, is it probably a 10th as effective? Yes. But I don't know. It's still probably doing something. Yeah. And even for us with the, the cetin like sourcing that and, and kind of understanding the dosing and all of that, like sure.

  Maybe by the time the new repair product comes out, we'll we'll have it available in injections as well, but not everybody's down for that. And it's also can be really expensive. I don't

  Michelle: Yeah, it's, it's a lot more tough to

  Aimee: Yeah, I looked into this Ella and I think through Ageless Rx, and it's like I could get a three month supply for like a thousand dollars.

  I was like, well, that's expensive, you

  Michelle: is, that's nuts. Yeah. Very expensive. Yeah. You have to make it realistic for people to really do consistently. 'Cause otherwise it's just, it's, it's tough.

  Aimee: And then also we [00:30:00] just don't honestly have enough data. So we can't say this for certain is gonna be the thing that gets you your baby. We can't, no one can and any, if anybody is,

  Michelle: Run for the hills.

  Aimee: It is like, I mean, I, before we talked, we, we share some clients and it's like this one client who came to me, like, it's, it's a, it's a colleague or a friend that has this like med spa and literally sent her home with this list of like, these are all the peptides I can inject you with so that you can have a, a better IVF next time.

  And she, I'm happy, sent it to me and asked me for my feedback. And I was like, oh, I a how much is this gonna cost you? But b. None that this is guaranteed. Like, it's like I, let's, let's be honest with ourselves, you know? And then so we kind of just picked and choose what we thought would maybe be smart to try.

  But we also don't know how everyone is gonna react, you know, just like anything.

  Michelle: [00:31:00] Yeah, for sure. And then what else did I wanna ask? I was gonna ask, so talk about peptides. Actually, let's kind of go to that. 'cause we, we brushed upon a couple of different ones and what are peptides for people who are not familiar with what they are and how can they help?

  Aimee: technically exist in our body, right? They're proteins and chains of proteins that exist in our body, and then what we're doing is. Taking them in at much higher doses, but they're technically, like, they're synergistic, is how I would look at it with our body and our function. So these were isolated compounds that were like, oh, you know, like rapamycin, oh, this impacts the mTOR pathway.

  We know this for a fact, so we're gonna use it here. So it's, you know, it's created based on physiology. And technically should be safe. It's more like the, the sourcing and the dosing and the individual [00:32:00] client.

  Michelle: So there's different types that do have different functions.

  Aimee: Oh, they all have different functions, right? Like, I mean, the GLP one is the most common, right? So we know it's working on these GLP one receptors, which is helping with insulin regulation in the body. You know, it's a metabolic and it's, I think it's magic for the people who need it, you know? We were talking about that before we went live, and it's like.

  Any of my clients, like it's being used more and more. I think infertility because so many of our girls have insulin resistance, which is why we've been working on diet and lifestyle with them for so long, and when to eat and how to eat and how much to eat, right? We're fixing insulin resistance is what we've been doing.

  Now. There's this drug that can do it pretty fast, you know, and so. But you really, really wanna know that you need it because if you take it and you don't need it, it could backfire. If you take it and you don't follow the right diet and the right lifestyle, it could backfire. And we know that from a JLP one 'cause it's been out for a very long time.

  But this, this is the longest. It's being like the, i I would [00:33:00] say the most amount of people it's being used on in a short period of time. It seems like everyone's taking it. You know, I worry about that long-term repercussions. There's a lot we don't know. You know, I'd liken that to, you know, some, some said vaccines, same thing.

  You know, where you're like, oh, I don't, I don't know that I'm playing around with that. Vaccines are different than peptides, but just that same thing where I'm like, I don't have enough longitudinal data. I need to collect more information. But like I think GLP ones are a good example. Like, we're learning the best way to live your life while taking it.

  So not just that you inject yourself and that's the quick fix and you never have to do anything else. If you do that, I think you can have negative repercussions for sure.

  Michelle: And also the dosage we were talking about that too. In some cases people would benefit from a microdose,

  Aimee: Yeah. I,

  Michelle: rather than having like a really high dose.

  Aimee: I just leave you, I'm sorry. Like a low and slow kind of situation, you know, I think it's much more important. Yeah, and I have girls that, you know, are very insulin resistant. Maybe metformin was what was recommended [00:34:00] to them prior. They're trying, the GLP ones, they're seeing a good difference.

  But same thing, you know, we're, we're staying at. Either the, the starting dose or the microdosing. I mean, I'm not a physician. I can't manage that and I can't prescribe that. But I've learned enough and I work with the physician. And then we are also looking at labs, you know, so, like for instance, I just saw a girl's labs today and they were thinking about giving her, gLP one for suspected insulin resistance. Her lectin and her insulin are low. I mean, they're below a three each. Like, she's, she's actually the opposite of the case. Like she, if you give it to her, it's gonna shut her down.

  Michelle: Right.

  Aimee: gonna go offline because everybody's gonna be like, oh my God.

  Like, it's, it's almost like, at least, at least from what I understand and know, that's how I see that it would go down. I, I could be wrong. I haven't seen enough of these cases, but it seems to work really well for the people with. High fasting glucose, their A1C is trending up their insulin, especially fasting insulin is high, like above a 10 above an [00:35:00] 11 is really, you know, you really wanna be in this.

  Everybody's different, but I would say. Four to 10 range is a good range for insulin, fasting glucose. You want it below 90. If you see that, that's another, like, here's an interesting story I'll share of like, one of my girls, she, she's actually 47. She has a significant ovarian reserve. Like when they do retrievals, she gets like 30 eggs.

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Aimee: She's doing IVF to test for genetics and, you know, with that many eggs, she felt really confident. But I meet her by the time she's already through like three retrievals and fertilization. Like she'd get 28 eggs, like two would fertilize and then like one, if it made, it would come back. You know, pl So,

  Michelle: have PCOS?

  Aimee: but that's the thing.

  She didn't, she appeared that way, meaning over ovarian wise and high a MH. She was a very fit, lean woman, like an athlete, a professional athlete. [00:36:00] So she could have had it at a younger age, but her lifestyle has like not shown it. But she could be lean. PCOS too. Her A1C is perfect though. But. So first we changed the medications because they were coming at a really high dose because of how many eggs she had left.

  So we first cut the meds in half, same eggs, retrieved fertilization rate, like almost one to 50%, which was amazing, but same thing, still keep coming back. Abnormal. Digging into her labs, you could see her fasting glucose started to trend up over the years and same thing with her. Insulin started to trend up.

  We never even checked her. Leptin actually trending up over, over the years. And even like in this last year, quite a bit like I think the IVF meds maybe pushed her kind of over an edge. She tries like a micro dose of a GLP one, not even that long. Two months does another cycle. She had an 80% fertilization rate.

  She got two euclids and one low level mosaic.[00:37:00]

  Michelle: Wow,

  Aimee: I mean, granted, I had all, you know, like she had been working with me maybe for four months at that point. We were on the low STEM protocol, but in my, you know, in, in my opinion and

  Michelle: It usually takes a little longer for those kind of things

  Aimee: insane. Like, so now we're prepping for a transfer.

  I mean, she's psyched, you know? We'll see, obviously like there's all these things, but it's like one example. If you need it, it could be really helpful.

  Michelle: That's

  Aimee: And women in perimenopause. The thing is, we become less and less insulin sensitive. And so when we're treating these women in their forties perimenopause is gonna kick in different times for different women.

  But we're, when we're treating where things are starting to go different or shift a little bit, we should be looking at metabolic health and then thinking about these things. And I still think we could do it ourselves with our herbs and our lifestyle and all our things. We, we have that. But I, I do of respect efficiency, you know.

  Michelle: No, we gotta use all the tools that we can [00:38:00] get. One quick question 'cause I know you have to go. LDNI remember you talking about that and that's an exciting new thing. Or it kind of newer, you know, not people are starting to like learn about it. Again, another type of medicine that at full dose does one thing, but then at low dose does another.

  Aimee: and it's, it's just basically like, like I just call it like a mini steroid. That's kind of how that's, that's how I see it, of just like, it's just this, it's just. Kind of breaking down this low level chronic inflammation. And you don't necessarily feel like world's different when you take it, but you see the difference.

  So for us, and it's been like this, I I'd say at least eight years, I, you know, every endometriosis patient if we know she has it,

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Aimee: and then any the autoimmune patient. And then now you're starting to see like the fertility doctors are using it. Like I see CNY, it's in every one of their protocols. Now. Every girl is on low dose naltrexone.

  And the research is cool. And there's that other guy, he's got a bunch of stuff on YouTube. I'm, I forget his name, but he's [00:39:00] really into it. From a fertility perspective. I can get you his name for show notes if you want. I just can't think of it in this moment.

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Aimee: yeah, I think, I think all of it layered together.

  But I would also just say of like the template that we, we start our clients with, you know, and then obviously always looking at mal factor, looking at uterine, looking at immune stuff like. The template is still really important. I think all these things are like, you know,

  Michelle: Add-ons.

  Aimee: Yeah. Add-ons. And with the understanding that not everyone is it gonna work for everyone, which is the hard part.

  'cause it's like you'd like a guarantee, especially if

  Michelle: Of course, but humans don't function like that.

  Aimee: But it's still like, what I still see in the data, and I know what we both see clinically is like, it's consistency and frequency. It's like there's not just like one shot you're gonna do and a month later you're gonna, you know, get your boobs.

  I mean, I did just kind of tell a story like that, but like, I just think she's, she'd been working at this, like, she had fine tuned her diet. Like she, she had, like, when she came to me I was kinda like, you don't really need me. I'll give you [00:40:00] advice on the IVF and the meds and I'll look at your labs, but like, you kind of have things on lockdown.

  But she was stumped. Why? Why is this not happening? Why is this not happening? You know? And, and could have been just that the insulin resistance that was starting to show up was not allowing her body to properly utilize everything she was doing is basically how I'd say. So now all of a sudden you, you help facilitate like proper metabolism and

  Michelle: Right.

  Aimee: the eggs.

  Michelle: Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, it's almost like we were talking about it before, it's almost like a block to your ability to access energy when you're insulin

  Aimee: what it is. It's, and it's like right. For us, it'd be like dampness. It's like flemmi sticky stuff, just hanging out in there, not letting things

  Michelle: getting in the way.

  Aimee: and then it, you put this in and it's like, because even like berberine will be like, kind of essentially, and like, what is that to us, that's like a heat clearing medicine.

  You know what I mean? It's we're like, we're getting through like the wreckage in a sense. We're like. Almost zapping it out. It's kind of what these op ones are doing.

  Michelle: Amazing. Amy, I can always talk to you and pick your brain for hours. And [00:41:00] of course, Amy's my mentor by the way. I actually do schedule calls with her to get to pick her brain because it helps my practice so much, my ability to help women. So like, I'm so thankful,

  Aimee: I'm always like, I got a Miami girl. Yeah. Here we go.

  Michelle: thank you. Same. And and of course I can keep talking to you for hours, but I know you have to go.

  You, you're a busy woman.

  Aimee: Waiting in my reboot group

  Michelle: yeah. So thank you so much for coming on. If, okay, so where can people find everything? All the, all

  Aimee: Yeah. So, I'll get you the, the link for pre-orders and things like that for the book. But everything's gonna be on my website, amy rep.com. Follow me on Instagram and TikTok. That's where like all the information will be shared. And then obviously the book is available anywhere books are sold. Right now it'll only be in English.

  I'm hoping to do an audio book as well. And then last time it was published it did get, it did go into a few languages, so hopefully that will be the case as well.

  Michelle: I'm sure it will be 'cause it's such a gift to the world. Thank you so much, Amy. [00:42:00] I always love talking to you. Have a great day.

  Aimee: you too. Bye. Okay. I am gonna.

Ep 377 Peptides, GLP-1s & Fertility: What You Need to Know with Jay Campbell

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I’m joined by Jay Campbell (@jaycampbell333), health optimization expert, author, and founder of BioLongevity Labs, to explore the powerful intersection of peptides, metabolic health, and fertility.

Jay shares how therapeutic peptides like HCG, HMG, and GLP compounds can support male fertility, insulin resistance, and metabolic balance when used correctly. We discuss the rise of GLP-1 medications, why microdosing matters, and how inflammation and visceral fat are major contributors to declining fertility rates.

Beyond the physical, we also dive into mindset, consciousness, and how belief systems impact healing and reproductive outcomes. This conversation bridges cutting-edge science with empowered awareness, and offers a new perspective on fertility optimization in the modern world.

Key Takeaways:

• Therapeutic peptides such as HCG and HMG can help stimulate FSH and LH to support male fertility.

• Chronic inflammation and visceral fat are major drivers of insulin resistance and declining fertility.

• GLP-1 medications can be helpful tools when microdosed and combined with proper lifestyle habits.

• Insulin-controlled living and metabolic flexibility are foundational for hormonal balance.

• Sustainable fat loss requires resistance training, adequate protein intake, and hormonal optimization.

• Environmental toxins and endocrine disruptors contribute to the global fertility decline.

• Mindset and consciousness play a significant role in healing, longevity, and reproductive success.
  

Disclaimer: The information shared on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider before making any changes to your health or fertility care.

Ready to discover what your body needs most on your fertility journey?
Take the personalized quiz inside The Wholesome Fertility Journey and get tailored resources to meet you exactly where you are:

 https://www.michelleoravitz.com/the-wholesome-fertility-journey

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https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

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• Transcript

  # Video\_TWF: EP 377 Jay Campbell

  ​[00:00:00]

  Michelle: Welcome to the podcast, Jay.

  Jay: Michelle, thank you so much for having me. I'm always honored and humbled and privileged to be doing podcasts with people. Uh, I made a goal in December of 2025 to do 75 podcasts this year, and you are number 10. So thank you so much for having me.

  Michelle: that's a good number.

  Jay: Yep.

  Michelle: Awesome. So tell me, um, I always like to start with an origin story so that my audience can get to hear your, you know, your background and, um, I'm, I, for one, I'm very interested in what I've read thus far, so I'm excited to have you share your story.

  Jay: Thank you so much. Um, so I'm gonna give you the a hundred thousand foot summary. Um, I'm an ex-college athlete, played basketball, um, was still playing competitive basketball at the age of 29 in a men's league in Southern California. I got kicked into testicles. Uh, you know, checked out. But about seven [00:01:00] to eight weeks later, I started feeling really run out.

  I was, I felt broken, I had low back pain, just didn't feel right, knew something was off. I went to my HMO slash P PPO doctor at the time, I worked for the Los Angeles Times, and as I like to say, there's no coincidences, only synchronicities. He recommended me to a world class, uh, Harvard educated endocrinologist by the name of Dr.

  Raymond Scruggs. And he took my labs and saw that I had the testosterone levels of a geriatric, like an 85-year-old man. So he said, look, I can put you on therapeutic testosterone and eight weeks to nine weeks later, you'll be right as reign, and if you wanna come off, you can. So he is like, before you say yes, go home, talk to your.

  Uh, at the time it was my wife to be, and I always say, shout out to Kelly because she is long gone. But, uh, you know, we did not have kids and we were like, yeah, we're both smart people. We could do this. So I went on therapeutic testosterone and again, I was literally seven weeks shy of turning 30 and everything he said was gonna happen happened.

  And when I went to see [00:02:00] him, uh, at my eight week checkup, he was like, okay, I'm gonna take you off. And I'm like. You're not taking me off this, this is the most transformative, amazing I've ever felt in my life. I want to learn more about this. And so from that point forward, um, the next 10 to 12 years, I became this amazingly voracious student of hormones and also other things, which again, this was in the early two thousands, which happened to be therapeutic peptides.

  You know, I tell people this and they freak out, but like, I've been using therapeutic peptides since 2003, right? So like on all this time that I was using therapeutic hormones, therapeutic peptides and other things, experimenting on myself, I was like, you know, I call myself an OG biohacker Guinea pig. I learned about all these amazing, you know, call 'em adjuvants or molecules or.

  You know, biochemical miracles. Um, so fast forward, um, I built a really awesome physique using therapeutic hormones, using therapeutic peptides. People would always ask me, um, you know, how do you look the way you do? And I would always tell 'em straight to their face. I [00:03:00] use therapeutic testosterone and peptides, et cetera.

  And so I would be met with this like, look of derision. Oh my God, you're on steroids. Or it would be like, wow, fascinating. Tell me more. And so eventually the fascinating, tell me more, people went out and I wrote a book, which was published in 2015. It was actually written in 2014, and it became a very, very big top selling book on Amazon and, and was number one in men's health for like five or six months in 2016.

  Uh, and then from there it just kind of vaulted me to speaking on stages, talking about hormones. Uh, I wrote my book on peptides, uh, in 2023, and it exploded into mainstream consciousness. Uh, for one really apparent reason. I didn't know it at the time, but it was because it was in the middle of the vaccines.

  Um, you know, the scam de and the COVID vaccine and all that. And so people were looking for alternative forms of healing and obviously peptides represented, you know, that. Uh, and so my book really blew up. And then, you know, subsequently then I've, uh, launched and sold a company and now I have another company called Bio Longevity Labs.

  And I'm just in the right [00:04:00] place at the right time, uh, at the same time that I learned about all that stuff. And I was really walking the path of hormones and peptides and stuff. I really got really conscious. And, um, that's kind of really my jam now. I talk about consciousness, I talk about, you know, people raising their frequency, raising their vibration.

  Um, and so on top of being like this health optimization expert, I also talk about conscious frequency and the universe and all that kind of stuff. And I think. Everybody really starts talking about that. Once you get to a level where you really have really clear awareness and so many people don't, right?

  Because they're walking around and insulin dysregulated, inflamed, uh, you know, metabolically, deranged, all these different horrible things are happening because our society is so broken. But one, you are clear, uh, physiologically it's allowing I think the universe to kind of clear you up, uh, consciously too.

  And so, like I've really become this person that, you know, it's great that I understand hormones and peptides and fertility and all these things, but I really like to talk about consciousness. 'cause I always say now that like if we don't raise our [00:05:00] frequency collectively as a, as a species, we're gonna blow ourselves up.

  And we've done it so many times in the past that you can really start projecting that we might do it again. And so my mission now is to A, end obesity and B, teach people that their thoughts create their reality. So that's kind of like where I'm at now.

  Michelle: Yeah, it's right up my alley actually.

  Jay: Awesome.

  Michelle: um, I'm a huge, uh, Dr. Joe Dispenza fan, um, groupie. You can call me. I've got already multiple week long retreats and when you go there and you experience, um, really the collective, that's where it's at. I mean, when you start to be in the collective soup of that similar and trained intention and consciousness, that's where you can actually say, okay, now I'm experiencing it.

  It's more than just a theory. It's a felt experience and. When you experience that, I don't think you ever really go back. And I.

  always say that yes, you can go into, you [00:06:00] know, the supplements, the diet, the, all the physical things, which matter a hundred percent. But if you don't, if you completely bypass the mind and your state of being really, then, and if there's some blocks in that category, then it doesn't matter what you do or how healthy of a lifestyle you have because you really need to address it.

  'cause actually that is sort of the, that's the foundation. That's where everything manifests from.

  Jay: Exactly. I mean, look, I, I'm so awesome that you and I are talking, and this is the universe lining us up, right? Because you thought I was just some peptide dork. But the truth is, is that we aren't anything but vibrating atoms and oscillating waves of

  Michelle: True.

  Jay: and, and the energy is infinite. And we, the only thing that limits us in this physical avatar body, in this current state of reality is our thoughts.

  And so it's as simple as a Jedi mind [00:07:00] track, as you notice, of course, I have Yoda back here. It's as simple as changing your thought processes to be open-minded, sovereign, empowered, and free consciously, versus being close-minded. Which is limited and vibrating down here in the Red Root Chakra because you're in fear, right?

  So every single day, no matter how shitty you envision, or you know, again, that's late li lacking and limiting by just saying that. But like, no matter how bad you find yourself or how bad you feel, you can change like that. And that's the beauty of living in third density reality because again, we, we can choose to serve others and be, you know, conscious and empowered, or we can choose to serve self and live as a victim.

  And, and, and nobody can say otherwise. And as you know, our society is so broken. It constantly pushes victimhood. It constantly pushes my younger daughters. To think that it's not their responsibility, that they're not, you know, accountable for all of their actions. And it's insane because [00:08:00] like it's, you see it, I see it.

  We have to really teach, you know, the younger generations that like, no, you are in complete control of your vibration and that's it. But that vibration is gonna ultimately give you the gateway to a better life.

  Michelle: Mm-hmm. Yeah, a hundred percent. And, um, so we'll, we'll go into that for sure. I wanna talk about therapeutic peptides

  because I, I'm sure a lot of people are listening to this and they're like, what are therapeutic peptides?

  How, how is it gonna impact my body? And

  like, how do I administer it?

  Jay: Yep. So peptides are basically in, in the, the lowest common denominator of breaking them down. They're basically biomolecules that are created, uh, organically in our cells. And they're, from a scientific standpoint that people can understand. They're basically chains of amino acids.

  Michelle: Which, which the shorter the chain.

  Jay: Yeah, the, the shorter the chain. The more likely you can ingest it orally. The longer the chain, the more likely you have to inject it with [00:09:00] a insulin syringe because again, a peptide is an aqueous based, uh, solution. So most peptides are synthesized in a lab, but they are naturally occurring. I think most people probably on this show or your audience knows what BPC 1 57 is or has heard of it 'cause they have friends that are using it.

  And it's basically known as body protective compound. And it's actually secreted in the, in the digestive juices, in the gut. So to, to use it though, obviously it has to be synthesized in a lab, but again, it's a naturally occurring, uh, biomolecule. So again, when you inject it, the synthesized form, you're basically injecting something that is already naturally found in the body.

  It's, again, it's an organic peptide chain signaling molecule, so the risks of using them are very, very low. In fact, I tell people this all the time in the 24 years now that I've been using therapeutic peptides. I've never seen a person od, I've never seen a person have any kind of horrifying, have to be hospitalized effect.

  Now, the [00:10:00] exception to that rule would be the idiots. I'm sure we'll get into this on this podcast that take super high doses of GLP peptides attempting to not eat for weeks at a time because they think that that's actually as intelligent strategy to lose weight. Right? So, but even those people don't die.

  They just, you know, screw up their, um, colon and, you know, screw up their, um, digestive tract. And obviously there's all sorts of other negative things that happen because they, you know, they can have micronutrient and mineral deficiencies, protein deficiencies, nutritional deficiencies 'cause they haven't eaten for two or three weeks.

  But, um, other than that there's very, very low risk and, and, and very, very high potential reward if you understand how you use them correctly.

  Michelle: Got it. So what are the different types of peptide and specifically for fertility? 'cause you've, you've talked about actually male fertility, that you've helped a lot of men.

  Which is an important topic that is not addressed as frequently, and I have to admit, I need to be starting to talk about it more on my podcast.[00:11:00]

  Jay: So right now we are at the lowest birth rate in history. Fertility is the worst problem that it's ever been in the first world. Now why is that? Well, we live in a contaminated first world. People mostly consume engineered food, GMO food. There's endocrine disrupting chemicals in the water supply. There's phylates, there's phytoestrogens, BPA, I mean, I could go on there.

  So I mean, like people young of, of let's just call it childbearing years, which is probably really realistically 25 to 40. I know there's lots of men and women having babies in their early and mid forties now because of in vitro fertilization, et cetera. But we were designed, you know, from the 25 to 40 time to really, especially women to get the womb, you know, is ready and et cetera.

  But because the environment is so contaminated, um, because men have such low levels of FSH and, and lh, you know, follicle stimulating hormone and luteinizing hormone, they have such low levels of circulating actual spermatozoa. [00:12:00] Uh, and then the same thing is happening with women, right? Uh, you know, hormonal pathways and patterning.

  So you've got that. And, and, and when you put them both together, you have the lowest birth rate that we've ever seen. Right Now, you don't see this in the, in the, uh, first, or I should say third and fourth worlds because in the third and fourth worlds, they don't have the endocrine, uh, the, um, the disruption, you know, from, just call it modernization, right?

  Modernized living the chemicals in the environment, the EMF, you know, all the things that are in the first world that contribute, you don't see in the second and third, fourth world, uh, as much. I mean, it's starting to affect them, but it's still not as bad. So you're gonna see a higher birth rate, like in Latin America than you will in the United States.

  Again, it's all due to the chemicals in the modernization, but, um, there are definite ways that you can utilize, you know, various peptides like, uh, kisspeptin, uh, like HMG, like HCG, I mean, there's various other ones. Teigen, [00:13:00] there's tons of now Russian bio regulators like Endo Lutin. Um, that you can take that improve, um, male and female, uh, endocrine systems.

  So there's just a lot of really good advantageous, uh, you could call 'em natural means, um, where you can stimulate people's, uh, endocrine systems and obviously ultimately their fertility, but you really have to understand how to use them. And I think. I think I really should say this, I've never really said this on a podcast before, but the biggest issue that we have, um, preventing men and women from getting pregnant is inflammation due to visceral fat.

  Because when I, and I've seen, and you know, I'm a studies dork, so when I see the studies and I see the lack of the birth rate falling, I also see the increase in body fat, right? Like over the age of 40. Now, uh, the average adult in America, this is in the, in the United States alone, the average adult over the age of 40 is b is clinically obese by the, [00:14:00] uh, BMI.

  Right? So that's like, I think I saw a stat, this was in 2024, or most recent was 2024, that 63% of men and women over the age of 40 in the United States identify as obese according to the BMI. Now obviously there's some statistically variation because sometimes muscular people show as obese in the BMI, and that's also because.

  The top end of the range is affecting or variant or varying, how do I say that? The variation is due to obesity. So they're, you know, they're classifying most people based on the average person being obese. So it's a horrible situation. So obviously if you factor that in and you really drill down, you're gonna see that if people lose body fat and improve their level of leanness, that naturally their birth, uh, rates will go up.

  But again, that's not who, what we are, that's not Western society anymore. The average person walking around is clinically obese by the BMI. But if you do take those peptides you use, uh, you know, some of them are really not, um, peptides, they're kind of small [00:15:00] molecules. Uh, but you can improve birth, uh, rate and, and also the short time or the, or lessen the time it takes someone to get pregnant.

  Michelle: And are there ways, um, because you talk about longevity, like does it help with the quality of eggs? Does it help with

  mitochondria? Um, yeah. So what are some of the ways that it can do that?

  Jay: So, I mean, I guess it just really depends on what you're using peptides for, right? I mean, there's, there's right now 56 or 57, maybe 58 peptides that are commercially available, uh, that people know about. But there's thousands of peptides that are not commercially available that we have identified in the science that we could eventually utilize.

  There's peptides that can actually attack cancers, they can kill ontological tumors. Um, there's just so many different, you know, call it uses or use cases for peptides, but we don't have them yet commercially available. But in the ones that we do, um, you kind of have to classify them as like, what do they do?

  Right. Well, the five biggest [00:16:00] needle movers are like cognition, fat loss, uh, longevity or wellness. You've got immunity and healing, right? So those are kind of the biggest five classifications. And I always tell people, because you know, some people, they get into peptides and they have the shiny object syndrome going on because they're like, oh my God, I want to use all these peptides for all these different things.

  And it's like, you can't really look at your biological system functioning as like taking 'em all at once or stacking them all at once. It's like, what is the bleeding neck issue that you as an individual has? And for most people they, they've got insulin resistance or inflammation due to high levels of visceral body fat, which obviously creates the inflammation.

  So you probably want to use some peptides to, to reduce or to help you with body fat. That would be like GLP peptides, GLP two, GLP three, uh, there's obviously lots of

  Michelle: What are the difference between the different glp?

  Jay: Yeah. So, so like a GLP one peptide is like the old school [00:17:00] semaglutide, or which is known as wegovy. In the mainstream.

  And honestly, you know, I just wrote a book, it's not published yet. It comes out in February, mid-February, February 24th. It's called Metabolic Awakening with GLP one Peptides. And I go through all of these various GLP peptides, I explain what they do. Um, but most importantly, I explain how to use them correctly in the context of health and longevity and how to avoid the unmitigated disaster of the mainstream who uses them, uh, you know, with pharma instructions.

  And they obviously take too high of a dose and then they whack out the

  Michelle: Because I know that, um, in some cases my, my reservation is that there are cases where it can cause irreparable harm on the digestive system.

  Um, is it too high of a,

  Jay: So I can tell you this, as someone intimately familiar with the data on glp, then that will be proven when this book comes out. I mean, there's 1300 scientific references in it and 717 pages and it, and I [00:18:00] used it with no ai, just me and two copywriters is six months of research. All side effects with GMPs can be avoided.

  The person that takes a GLP has to obviously live a correct lifestyle and has to use them in a microdose fashion. But 95% of people using GLP do not that do not do that. Okay. So microdose versus full dose. um, which

  way too high of a dose, they blow out their receptors, and then none of them live the lifestyle that is A, necessary and b, conducive to optimizing their health.

  Right? So think about it like this, and again, I, this is all covered in the book. I, I cover every single side effect ever listed on A GLP. I have literally a chapter three is, uh, I think it's 98 pages and I dropped 50 pages out of it. But it's so exhaustive going through every single side effect and explaining why this happens and how to avoid it.

  But, um, every single thing. That people experience [00:19:00] negatively, um, from taking GLP are due to starting too high of a dose and then of course titrating higher. Um, and then b like I said, not doing any of the lifestyle requirements and the lifestyle requirements are very, very critical. But, and I'll just tell you there's like 10 of them, but I, I, I'll this podcast, we'll just talk four.

  The most important number one is are you eating enough protein to avoid catabolism AKA muscle loss? And 99% of people that use GLP do not

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Jay: Um, number two is, are you doing resistance training to strengthen the bones and to avoid catabolism of muscle, right? Because if you do do that while you're using these, you will not have muscle loss.

  Um, so that's number two. And then, you know, three and four are, are you hormonally balanced or hormonally optimized? Which as you know, 80% of society is not. So that's also the fast path to. Losing muscle because again, this is a simple thing, thermodynamics, if you lose [00:20:00] muscle, you ultimately are going to shut down your metabolism or lower your metabolic rate because you obviously, you have to maintain muscle when you're losing body fat in order to keep everything running.

  Thyroid, uh, you know, energy metabolism, all the different things that happen when you have muscle. So when you lose it, it breaks everything else down. And then I would just say, uh, number four is, you know, like everything else, it's just good sleep hygiene and stuff like that. But many, many people, I know this is insane to think about this, but they will take a very high dose of a peptide and think that if I don't eat for two weeks, I'm gonna lose all the weight.

  It's insane. But again, the American public has not really been taught about ed, uh, nutrition at any level of education. You know, college, you know, degree doc doctors don't learn about

  Michelle: Yeah. I was just gonna say like it's more than just the public.

  Jay: Exactly. So, so, so that, and then, you know, when you really factor that in and you look at what is happening, they go to these doctors who don't understand how to give them proper instructions on lifestyle habits. And the doctor makes the most amount of money by prescribing [00:21:00] the highest amount of dose, and then they stare step the dose.

  And so literally every 10 days to two weeks, the dose is doubling. And if it's not doubling, it's going from one to 1.5. Right? So it's insane what happens. And again, again, like I said, 95% of people that experience GMPs have done it wrong and then go into their, um, you know, wherever it is that they're, they, that they scream into the either and say, these are the worst things ever.

  And then celebrity doctors glom on celebrity influencers

  Michelle: Yeah, it's important to also know your body type and because in some

  cases if you have like really bad insulin resistance and it's very difficult for your body to get on track sometimes, you know, it does require something a little stronger.

  Jay: Yeah, no, a hundred percent. Look, insulin resistance is lifestyle.

  And if you don't wanna change your lifestyle, you can't use a GLP And I, and obviously I talk about a lot of this in, um, you know, the book, and, and that's why I, I really [00:22:00] am, it's a labor of love for me because my mom was obese and my mom died of COVID.

  But I mean, she was really struggling with obesity and being comorbid her, majority of her adult life. She did give birth to nine children. Um, but she, she was obese and, and she died of COVID. And, you know, I really wanted to help her. And so for 30 years of my life, I attempted to not physically, I I was probably two or three years of intervening with her when she was younger and I was younger, but then I became conscious and I realized that, you know, the, the teacher appears when the student is ready and you can't wave your arms, as you know.

  So. Uh, but at the end, you know, I was very, um, humbled and, and, and, and I was also just sad, you know, um, to watch my mom deteriorate in the way she did. And so like, I was like, you know what? If there's any person. With the knowledge to cure obesity or to tackle obesity head on, it's gonna be me. And so I eventually wrote this book, and again, I'm really proud of it.

  It's gonna come out in the end of February, around around the 24th. But it's, it's really powerful [00:23:00] book. And if we can get it into the hands of enough people, we can definitely teach people how to not be insulin resistant, metabolically deranged, and ultimately obese. Because I do teach people how to do this right.

  And I, you know, I have like, like I said, you know, tons of studies that back me up. But then I also have a chapter on transformations. Uh, and I have 16 people, men and women equally from all over the world, all walks of life. Who, you know, have incredible before and afters, but most importantly talk in their own words about what the GLP did for them and you know, how it changed everything for them and completely transformed their life and, you know, spiritually made them more aware and, and, and, you know, awakened and et cetera.

  So it's like I tell people like it's just a tool. You know, at the end of the day, it's just a tool, but like all tools we have to know how to use them, you know, in the context of health and longevity. And most people don't, as you already said. And most doctors, and of course pharma don't, that don't give a rat's ass because they just [00:24:00] wanna make money.

  You know, they don't, they're not really in it for health. I'm sure there's some doctors that are and, and lack the education or lack the actual knowledge base to really, truly help people. But there's enough smart people out there talking about microdosing and doing it correctly and interpreting the research that it doesn't, it, it shouldn't be as bad as it still is.

  And so I'm really hopeful that this book is gonna shine a really bright light, uh, on what I would call a dark hallway so far when it comes to

  Michelle: Oh yeah, I, I, it was very dark because I'll be honest, I had a lot of resistance to GLP ones, like a lot when it first came out and

  just seeing how people just took it. And, um, even friends of mine, people I know, and I was like, well, you gotta really do the research before you start this, because it's not like just some kind of simple thing.

  Like I know that there are certain problems with, um, stomach paralysis and some of 'em are like irreversible. And so then, so I was kind of, I, I initially had a very strong like, resistance, you [00:25:00] know, other ways to, to lose weight. But then I realized, um. That it's not a black and white thing. And that in some cases, it was really helping people that no matter what they did, they were not losing weight and their insulin resistance was very stubborn.

  It was really difficult for them to do anything. Like exercise sometimes made, you know, because they're so drained physically, like it

  wasn't really helping. Um, then I started hearing about microdosing and I was like, okay, well this might be a little bit of a more compromised level, you know, where it's, you're not bombarding the body with something into their system. And I just think that it was, it, there were so many unknowns and it was, it became so like, it went like wildfire, like everybody was using it and there were too many unknowns. So that was my hesitation originally. Um, but I'm still learning, you know, as a practitioner I'm still learning, but it feels like the [00:26:00] microdosing. Is less, I guess, invasive than, you know, those really high doses.

  Jay: So I actually, um, so I actually have, so I'm gonna read this to you. So, so there's a lot you just said there. There's a lot to unpack. Um, obesity is not a lack of willpower and. It's a very, how do I say it? It's a very nuanced and multi-pronged issue. And, uh, it's really, it's, it's honestly, it's, it's probably threefold.

  Um, and I have so many windows. I was just gonna read to you this summary that somebody just wrote in my book, but I can't find it now. But I, I, I, I know what obesity is caused by obesity is caused by, number one, the addiction to the hyper palatability of foods. Now, number to to, to explain that for the average listener on your audience, there are people that get paid millions, the m word dollars a year to create molecules [00:27:00] that addict people's brainwave, patternings to the food.

  And this is obviously in the fast food industry and the GMO Box food stuff industry. And so these people, the majority of them are the obese, insulin resistant people are not able to overcome the addiction from these chemicals. So they're, it's, it's really, really horrible. I mean, I, I explained this and go into detail, in depth in, in, in the book.

  And then the number two reason is, uh, due to that addiction, um, they have, they're, they're obese, they're insulin resistant, they can't move. They have pain. People have to understand this, and there's not a lot of people out there saying this, but people who are obese are in a default state of suffering.

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Jay: I mean by that is, is that you have cytokine storms in your body 24 7. So we have no idea as non-obese people what they are feeling. And so it's very, very difficult for them to exercise to [00:28:00] think clearly. 'cause you gotta understand when you're metabolically inflamed, you're mentally inflamed, so everything is affected negatively.

  And then the number third thing is obviously the result of one and two, which is they don't have the energy to do the things that we all say that they can do. Right. Or they don't have the

  Michelle: they do, sometimes they that, well, they, they don't necessarily have the energy. But I see my patients when they come to me, I mean,

  we worked on, we work on many different

  ways, like of, of, uh, trying to help through supplements. Um,

  sometimes, uh, herbals.

  So there are definitely like ways around it, but, um, they really do, they exercise like crazy.

  They don't, they don't eat a lot. Like they give me a whole list of what they eat and they still can't shed the weight

  and it's frustrating.

  Jay: Yeah. Well, I mean, again,

  Michelle: with PCOS, insulin resistant, PCOS

  Jay: yeah, I mean, I mean there's, it, it's a multi causal thing, but tho those three things that I told you are what creates it. And then once it happens, [00:29:00] it's very difficult to lose it because they are metabolically resistant. Um, it is very hard to get off. I mean, look, if you live in the Midwest where you are being bombarded by atrazine and, and, and glyphosate at all times, those chemicals sit in your fat

  tissue and are actually very difficult to metabolize.

  Michelle: Because then your bodies, your body's protecting itself from like getting too many toxins all at once, and our

  fat cells love to store them. Yeah.

  Jay: the reason you have all that fat, because the fat is the protection from the toxins. So it, it, it is, it's

  Michelle: it's a multi, yeah, for sure. Another thing is you can go to Europe. Where they don't have as many chemicals and

  eat pasta and like, I mean, carbs galore and lose weight.

  Jay: Yeah, exactly. No,

  Michelle: And absolutely true.

  so something in,

  in the American food. And I think that it's beyond just like the addiction, it's beyond the taste.

  'cause you can eat the same amount. It's the [00:30:00] chemicals that they put in, whatever it is in the they, they put, they process it. I think the best way to maybe control it is to, I don't know, grow your own food if you can. Or like do something

  Jay: Well, you have to, you have to get, you have to su you have to order. There are companies out there that sell very organic, sustainable meals, and you have to obviously have money to get that. I mean, that's what my wife and I eat. I mean, look, I, I travel the world a lot. Um, I can't eat American food. I can't go to a restaurant in America and order anything.

  I took my daughter out to dinner for her 18th birthday on Sunday night, and we went to a Ana Teki Steakhouse here in Tampa. Very famous one. I couldn't eat it, you know? Um, they put so much chemical, like you said, processed chemicals, additives, whatever, flavoring. It's insane. I just come back from two weeks in Mexico where I ate out every night at either a steak, a tie, uh, you know, different, uh, uh, uh, uh, Brazilian, um, you know, Ecuadorian, like just flavors of the world.

  And the food is [00:31:00] succulent amazing. There's You taste delicious and you lose Exactly. E exactly. So, so we're, we are under assault in America, and it really does now take a very conscious being, uh, who's super proactive to avoid it. You know, I mean, that's, there's a reason I told my wife and I, we don't go out to eat. You know, you, you know, there's nothing to do.

  I drink a lot of really, really good protein shakes. I get the free ingredient, almond milk, you know, I drink water and three ingredient almond milk. That's it.

  Michelle: basics, you know?

  Um, I think that that's the way literally cannot eat packaged food or go to grocery, or I'm sorry, restaurants that are layering all this crap on the food.

  Jay: You literally be sick. Or if you're not sick, it's what you and I already talked about. You're, you know, metabolically, uh, resistant, insulin resistant and, and probably having too much body fat.

  Michelle: Yeah, and it's interesting 'cause I think about it as more than obviously like what you're intaking, but also like the way your body's using energy, we're able to access energy. It's almost like there's a [00:32:00] block to our body's ability to access our own energy, which

  is what keeps it into, into

  Jay: The a hundred percent. I mean, America is the most metabolically, dysregulated nation on earth. That's a hundred percent fact. And it really is, you know, everything is broken down. Obviously since COVID, that's a whole nother thing. A lot of people broke psychologically and have given up. But if you don't, you know, well, let's just say this, th this is a statistical fact.

  You'll, the L, the leaner you are, the longer you'll live, right? If you look at all the blue zone people and the octogenarian people. You know, I mean, you could get into a debate of quantity versus quality, but most of those people are, you know, Asians and they're very lean, they're tiny people. Uh, they live into their a hundred, you know, they get into 1 0 8, 1 0 9, 1 10.

  The people are even into one teens. But all of those people have zero inflammation. They have no body fat. So if you want to [00:33:00] extend your life, and obviously you can't account for a plane crash or getting hit by a car or any of that stuff, but if you wanna extend your life, you wanna lower your level of body fat, because again, body fat is what creates inflammation.

  Inflammation is what creates, uh, cellular degradation, which leads to disease. Every single disease state that we know of is coming from inflammation, uh, heart attack, inflammation. Uh, type three diabetes, type two diabetes, inflammation, insulin resistance, right? And so it's like if we understand that and we lower our body fat, you know, as much as we possibly can, as we age, then statistically we will live longer.

  It just obviously becomes, as, you know, uh, especially doing the work that you do, that it, if, if you have all these other, you know, issues of resistance, um, it's much harder to lose the weight. And so that's why I say that if you understand how to use a GLP two or use a GLP three, and of course, of course, I explained that in the book, um, it, it is a good [00:34:00] tool to help people who otherwise lack tools or struggle, uh, to lose weight.

  And by the way, just so you know, I, I think the GLP one is a completely worthless drug, and I talk about that in the book. Um, it was a, it was a useful tool when it had utility in the marketplace, but it's been passed up. And I also say now that like this book in two years. The stuff that I recommend. Now, I may say that is also useless and is now completely obsolesce because of what's in the pipeline.

  And that's, to me, that's what's really cool about the industry is that we are in a biomedical golden age. But in order for you as a, as a, you know, call it a conscious consumer, um, you have to, like you said already, you have to do the work. You have to do your own research, you have to listen to intelligent people, uh, who can explain this stuff to you.

  But the tools are accessible and available. You just have to learn how to do 'em. And I think you also know this too, the signal to noise ratio, especially on the internet, is [00:35:00] mostly noise and very little signal. So it also becomes harder for people who listen to, you know, fake influencers or people that act like they know what they're talking about.

  I mean, I always tell people this, and we haven't said this on this call, 90 to 95, it's probably somewhere in the middle of that 92, 90 3% of people online that talk about peptides have absolutely no idea what they're talking about.

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Jay: Literally no idea. They're making things up. I mean, I, again, I've been using 'em for 24 years.

  There's very few people that understand it at the level that I understand, and that includes doctors, researchers, and I hear people talking about these, and I'm like, that person just made that up. But the average person who doesn't know this, doesn't understand that. Right? So they're constantly being led down paths that aren't true.

  You know, and, and don't get me going about AI AI is literally hallucinating Right. Yeah, I know.

  Do you know that I, I'll, I'll, this, you're the only person I've ever shared this with on a podcast. I, as I told you, [00:36:00] the book has zero ai, no AI summaries, no AI conclusions, no AI adaption. There was at one point in the Google document where I was like, you know what?

  This book is amazing. Let me just see. And my, and my copywriter was like, I will resign. If you do it, we don't care. But.

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Jay: have done this. And by the way, my name is very big in AI because of my research and my work. I have asked AI in the past, in the last three weeks, and I don't use AI in anything to do, but I did this as a game, six different questions, about six different peptides.

  Uh, and they were all the same questions, but asked in a different way. And every single answer was different and wrong.

  Michelle: Ask, Ask,

  Somebody told me,

  Jay: one. Imagine the youth who are not, you know, as savvy as you and I are, have been a long, round longer, who are being influenced by ai. I think of my daughters, you know, they're 16 and 18 years old, um, and they think that AI is God.

  They think that AI is [00:37:00] the answer. It's insane. I mean, literally they are learning nothing.

  Michelle: Um, it's a tool. You could use it for some things. Um, but you really need to be leading that ship. You can't

  allow it to be the

  Jay: you can't use it to think.

  Michelle: Yeah,

  Jay: A lot of young people. A lot of young people do use it to think,

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Jay: and that's a big problem because they're outsourcing their discernment and their conscious communication. They're, they're outsourcing their brain power.

  It's lowering iq. That's not

  Michelle: Well, I think our phones already started that.

  Jay: Well, of course, but I, but think about it, if you're 15 years old now and you ask AI for the answer, you're not thinking,

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Jay: and that's what all these kids do.

  I mean, I, I talk to people that are, you know, old friends of mine that are now working as professors in college and stuff like that, and they tell me stories that I can't even, I mean, I, I can't comprehend it. I mean, imagine if your whole job was trying to determine like what papers that were submitted were, were written by ai and what was it?

  Michelle: Uh, well, I mean, there's, I think there's ways to do [00:38:00] that. You can, um,

  Jay: Well, yeah, well, they all know it. But I mean, imagine if that was your job.

  Michelle: God, but you know what, um, I, I mean, I, I remember growing up having to remember like people's phone numbers. Like my brain used to actually

  Jay: of us can

  Michelle: and I fight it. I fight it now. Like I try to almost catch myself and I still try to, you know, write things down

  and do things that I used to do where

  Jay: write everything down.

  Michelle: it's so much better.

  And I because I, there was a time where I was typing, so, 'cause I type fast, so I always type and then I said, wait, I need to, like my handwriting, I need to use my hand. To write more. Yeah,

  Jay: It's a weird, it's a weird day and age that we're in. Um, you're right. It's a tool just like peptides are tools. GMPs are tools, hormones are tools. But I do think that far too many people, especially going back to the signal to noise ratio with it mostly being noise, people think of these tools as answers or [00:39:00] as fundamental agents, and they're not,

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Jay: they're just a tool, as you said, very

  Michelle: it's, we undermine ourselves. I think that we don't realize how powerful we are, which is

  why we're always seeking outside of us.

  And the ancients have always told us, you want, the answers go within.

  It's always been go

  Jay: Yes, yes, yes.

  Michelle: And so I, I think that that's, um, we, you know, it's, it feels easier to go without, but you're, you're not, it's gonna be a fake illusion.

  You're not, you're not getting the real thing.

  Jay: Exactly. Exactly. I'm, we, we, we see, we see very eye to eye. Exactly. I mean, um, it's an interesting time because. Thankfully, there are a lot of people like us now. I mean, I, I don't know how many of there are like us, but I mean, I think there's a lot more than there was say, five years ago. Um, but there's not enough of us.

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Jay: You know, like David Ike just wrote this amazing book called The Roadmap. I highly recommend you get it and read it. Um, you know, there's, he talks about Joe Dispenza in the book, but it's an amazing book [00:40:00] because he teaches you not that he always hasn't been teaching you, and there are of course, other people teaching you, and you and I already know this, but literally everything is a perception deception.

  And when you change your view to be open-minded, you are connected to infinity. And when you are close-minded, you are connected to basically whatever lack and limitation mindset or scarcity mindset that you have. So it's like you could either be open-minded and open to everything and the abundance and the prosperity that the universe can provide, or you can be closed-minded and closed off.

  It's as simple as that. I mean, I know that that sounds overly simplistic, but it's not, and I feel like that's a great way to teach people who are starting to really start walking the path that you and I have been walking for a long time. Because if they could just change their viewpoint from being limiting to being open and expansive, everything changes.

  Michelle: well, I feel in, in the sense of, you know, I guess all the [00:41:00] data points that people get when they're on the fertility journey or the messages that they get from their doctors, like, um, well, you know, you're getting old and

  all, all the things, all the things that were figured out thus far. And I

  often say this and. Hopefully people have heard me say this a couple of times so that it really kind of gets in their minds. But the two things that I always say is, um, if you look up, the oldest person that conceived and had a baby naturally, um, was this woman named Dawn Brooks in England. And she was, uh, 59 when she had her.

  She got

  pregnant, 58, um, had the baby at 59 Healthy baby. Uh, good birth like, and I think to myself, okay, and then I kind of, uh, I always couple this with a Roger Banister effect

  of, oh, it's impossible

  to

  beat the four minute mile. And then he goes ahead and like, after years and years and years of being told that it's physically impossible, beats it, and then within a month or [00:42:00] two, like multiple people beat it,

  how is it that all of a sudden that opened the door?

  It was just, it's a mindset that it's possible. And I think that what happens is, again, we put so much of our belief in other people and what they say. That we allow that to seep into our consciousness and we don't, without even realizing we're put, putting limitations. And I think, um, I will say, I think that one of the things that I'll attribute to a lot of my success, and I'm not saying this in any kind of conceited way or

  anything like that, I really feel very dedicated to this work of helping couples conceive and, and have families.

  And, and, um, I think the biggest thing that I can attribute it to is that I believe in them. I believe

  that they can do it. And I think as a practitioner, when you believe in them, subconsciously, they don't realize, but it gives them permission to believe in themselves. It's unfortunate that they need me or anybody else to, to have that, but I guess we, you know, we're not islands.

  We do need [00:43:00] people. We need, um. We need that support. But I think that it's important really to, when you're talking about that expansiveness, that open-mindedness to be, to go beyond the limitations of what we've been given, go beyond the

  limitations of what has been studied thus far.

  You know, it's just been studied thus far.

  That

  doesn't mean that there's not other possibilities out there. Um, and I think that we get so limited and science gets limited, and then, um, we look like crazy people talking about things that haven't yet happened. You know what I'm saying? And I think that that's, there's many like us that are probably afraid to speak because they're like, oh, well if I speak about this stuff, I'll seem too woo.

  Or, you know, and that's literally what happens. It's because you're not limiting yourself to everything that's already been discovered.

  Jay: Exactly. So if you understand, everything you just said can be summed up very simply that if you understand the quantum all is possible and all is probable. So when you [00:44:00] understand it at that level, there is no limitation. In fact, the mind is the prison. Of human consciousness, because again, you just said it, right?

  Like if we are afraid, I mean, fear is the ultimate saboteur, but if we are afraid or if we think that others may judge us or label us, or you know, say like you said, woo, then you're instantly in that lack again, limitations, scarcity, you know, mindset, and you're not open to expansion, which is obviously abundance, um, prosperity, et cetera.

  So you just have to play the game at a level of like, Hey, okay, all is possible. Not only is all is possible, but I'm going to allow that awareness into my conscious frequency in everything that I do, because I know that the opposite will limit me. It's as simple as that. But I mean, I agree with everything you said, and I know it's actually true.

  Um, and, and that's why I always say it's like it's as simple as just changing your [00:45:00] perception that you are an infinite being and that you're not identifying, as you were saying, as this. I'm a white male, or I'm this religion, I'm this, you know, et cetera. And you just have this kind of like, I'm open and allowing to all, again, the quantum all is possible.

  And so I don't have any limitations. I don't have any, uh, self identities of this, that, or everything. And because you, you said it best, like we usually are taught from an early age at birth to self-identify with limitation in everything. There's a limitation. You know, I'm this, you know how many people have come to you and they're like, oh, but you know, diabetes runs in my family, or autoimmune runs in my family, or, you know, they've been, they've heard this insane diagnosis given them to

  Michelle: And, and there was a time, there was a time where the.

  Jay: true. How, how was it a

  Michelle: used to believe that there was no neuroplasticity until

  they

  Jay: oh, I see what you're saying.

  Michelle: that there was a [00:46:00] so, so in the perception, I mean, like in the

  matrix,

  Jay: no, I got you. I, I understand what you're saying, but yeah, so

  Michelle: so there was a saying. But that in and of itself proves that you are limiting in your thought process. Look, all the great accomplished people of society, going back thousands of years did not have a lack, scarcity, or limitation mindset.

  Jay: It's as simple as that. You could not create, I could actually make an argument. I can't prove it, but I can make an argument that the more open your mind is to expansion, the less, I'm sorry, the more likely you are to be communicated with by higher density or higher dimensional sources. Because I truly think that even like Joseph Vicenza, like people like that, like they're so deep into the connection with the universe that they get i wisdom or information or insights imparted, imparted into them.

  You know, you could probably call it telepathically or just again, just consciously because of the work they're doing, [00:47:00] right. I think that's really what happens. I think that all great advancements come from people that do not have that limiting mindset or that limiting belief, and so now it's kind of like seeping.

  I mean, however you define it, it seeps into their consciousness and they're like, boom, I got this great idea

  Michelle: So

  here's what I'm gonna say very much in line with that. My belief in doing this for 10 years, um, is that people who feel deep in their gut or in their soul or viscerally that

  Jay: Yeah.

  Michelle: want to conceive. I don't think that's random. I don't

  think that feeling is a random thing. I

  Jay: I agree.

  Michelle: it's isolated.

  I don't think it's just a desire. I think it's actually a calling. And I think that if you have that calling, um, and I think that this kind of comes down to like not really realizing how powerful you are, um, if you have that calling, that is your intuition, that is your higher self, that is your intelligence telling you it's [00:48:00] possible.

  Jay: That's awesome. Yeah. That's not a belief, that's a knowing. I would, I, I would, I would tell you,

  Michelle: that's another, uh, yeah. Level.

  Jay: tell you to change your conscious word languaging and stop using the word belief, because belief is actually the enemy of knowing. And so you know it. And everything that you told me today, you knew and know.

  So it's like I state that I know this because my superconscious wisdom, my higher self, my connection to the divine is literally telling me this, and it's up to me to act on it.

  Michelle: Mm-hmm.

  Jay: So yes, I agree a hundred percent. You create your reality with your thoughts, and it just takes us to investigate that both consciously and through action to recognize that it's real.

  Michelle: Yeah, I see it also as a connection with the spirit, baby, kind of the energy. There's

  Jay: A hundred percent.

  Michelle: I do feel there's a communication I've seen, um, I've heard crazy stories of synchronicities that happen once people are open to it or ask for that guidance and that communication,

  Jay: Like [00:49:00] that. It

  Michelle: so I don't feel like it's just this isolated, like, I, I just want it, therefore I'm gonna get it.

  I feel like there's something even higher than that

  where they're I, I, I'll say this, you can't, like a lot of people in the, call it new age, think that if they just wish it into existence, it's gonna happen. You have to take action at, at, at this level of reality. You can't think it into reality. You have to actually think it, see it perceptually, visualize it, understand it, and then take action to achieve it.

  Jay: So I think like in energetic densities, you know, if we call 'em angelic beings or you know, whatever, divine guides or whatever, I think that they have that capability and that's why they're always constantly helping us, right? Like, if you're in this level of reality, you ask for help and you truly, intuitively desire it and, and, and are asking for the help, I think the help comes, I don't think it just like they just hand you.

  A shovel, right? Or a bunch of money. But I think that intuitively you'll eventually get it. You just have to do the work that is necessary to [00:50:00] earn it, and that's how you ultimately will get it. But nothing is out of the realm of possibility. That's how I see things.

  Michelle: And you've helped, um, kind of going back to, you had mentioned that you've helped a lot of men, um, also with their fertility.

  Like what have you

  Jay: thousands. I've literally helped thousands. I have tons of a-list celebrities that I've helped get pregnant. Uh, I can't of course mention their names, but I've helped a lot of, a lot of people, uh, get pregnant. And again, you know, I have a protocol. Um, it's really simple to increase, um, FSH and lh, which is obviously the most important factors for men.

  And you have to use, uh, HMG and H CG in combination. Uh, and you don't need high dosages. Most doctors, you know, whack out people by giving them too high dosages. You just need a microdose and you just need to stay. Taking it. And you also have to have the mindset that you already mentioned. You know, you have to honestly think that you're going to get your wife or your significant other or your partner pregnant.

  And when you do that, and obviously the lifestyle's important [00:51:00] too, right? You can't be doing a bunch of bad things and having bad habits. But if you're living the lifestyle that's conducive to being fertile with the right mindset and right with these agents, and again, that's, you know, it's human menopausal genotropin and human chorionic genotropin together, um, they will definitely stimulate FS, H and LH to get to a point where you will be shooting very, very fertile sperm.

  Michelle: Mm-hmm. And then as far as, um, I, I'm gonna go back to the insulin resistance. You were talking about lifestyle choices. What are some of the lifestyle choices if somebody's listening to this and maybe has insulin resistant PCOS or is trying to get to a healthy weight and struggling?

  Jay: Yeah, it's a great question. I mean, there's a lot of things to do, but the first thing to do is to change your lifestyle so that you live insulin controlled, and I don't think most people even understand what that means. I've said that to so many people and they're like, Jay, I don't know what the hell that means.

  So I always say you eat carbohydrates relative to the energetic demand that you have in your life, right? So what does that [00:52:00] mean deeper? It means that if you lift weights. Uh, you know, you're a quote unquote biohacker. Bodybuilder, you know, not a professional or competitive one, but you'd lift weights three or four days a week.

  You can eat more carbohydrates than a person who doesn't. And, and, and the reason that is, is because obviously when you lift weights, you are depleting muscle glycogen, which is the primary fuel source of glucose, substrate of glucose. And so someone like that who's doing resistance training or bone bearing training, or really any kind of serious athlete who's depleting muscle glycogen, they can eat more carbohydrates than a person who's sedentary, right?

  So you really have to understand that. Um, I don't really ever get into like, types of eating. Um, but obviously I, I'm great. I, I love intermittent fasting. I love alternate day fasting. I love people that reduce their carbohydrate consumption. Um, you know, intelligently, I think metabolic flexibility is the most important tenet of in curing insulin resistance.

  Again, you are fueling your body relative to your energetic demand. Uh, and [00:53:00] then you can get really, you know, deeper and esoteric. You can obviously, hormonally optimize yourself. Most people don't, are are walking around with a hormone deficiency. So therapeutic hormones, obviously testosterone, estradiol, progesterone, S-D-H-E-A, pregnenolone, there's a lot of things.

  Uh, and then beyond that. Really, you can really get esoteric and use peptides like a GLP peptide, like a GLP three, which is ide uh, it improves appetite, um, I'm sorry, insulin signaling and nutrient partitioning. It bumps your metabolic rate slightly. Uh, so combined with hormones, combined with living insulin controlled, combined with doing weight training and doing cardiovascular training, uh, you could then, if you really wanna get deeper down the rabbit hole, you could start using mitochondrial optimizing peptides like a Mott C, like a five amino, like an SS 31.

  There are others. Um, but that's kind of really the way, you know, at the really bleeding edge tip of the spear way to, uh, you know, improve insulin resistance, lower metabolic [00:54:00] dysregulation, uh, you know, lower cellular inflammation. Um, that's kind of the, those are the real ultimate, you know, pass from the base to the, to the higher end.

  Michelle: So from all the different G LPs, um, one, two, and three, you had mentioned one is kind of like not as great. Um, would you say three is the best or

  is there, is there a

  Jay: So it's a good question. I think it depends on how metabolically dysregulated you are. And what I mean by that is if you are dealing with food addiction, uh, again, the hyper palatability of food is screwing with your brain and you have just unsatiable appetite, uh, you probably need a GLP two, like a tirzepatide.

  There are others, cabri aide, something that will help suppress your appetite because IDE the GLP three is increasing everything else. And so you really want to have something with mild appetite suppression that will help you not overeat. But most people who don't have that, you know, addiction to [00:55:00] food or that cravings to food who are not overeating, they can just get by with a microdose of a GLP three and that's gonna help them do everything else.

  Um, and you already said it. I mean, as long as you're exercising, you're doing a combination of lifting weights and doing a combination of cardiovascular training. You don't need much. You just, you have to do it effectively. That's a whole nother thing. You know, I see the majority of people that go to the gym and lift weights have no idea what they're doing, right?

  They don't train to positive muscle failure. They don't train to an intensity where they actually get results. They just kind of go through the motions or just their fuck, their form sucks. Uh, you know, they're using ego or momentum. You see this equally in men and women. Actually, women know how to train better than most men.

  I mean, 'cause they follow, they follow instructions. A lot better than men do. And you know, men will just like see a big strong muscular dude and be like, oh, I'm gonna do what that guy's gonna do, you know, and then just use a bunch of jerking ego momentum and not have any idea what they're doing. But, um, as long as you train effectively, and I always tell people like, [00:56:00] training effectively is not living heavy weights.

  It's literally using your body's natural anatomical levers and, uh, physiology to contract muscle fibers at maximum rate. And, and you don't need heavy weight. You can lift it 50 to 55% of your one repetition maximum do 20 to 25 reps and do a couple sets, and you can still build an amazing physique and build muscle very easily regardless of your genetics.

  So it just, it's learning on how to take your body to a specific level of intensity when you're trained. Uh, and then it's the same thing with your cardio. You know, you can't just spin your wheels, you know, you have to go in there, obviously intentional. With an idea that like, Hey man, I really wanna do this to help burn body fat, to help me burn calories at rest more effectively.

  And I think, and you know, the studies show that steady state cardio consistently over time will burn more fat while you're at rest or per unit of rest than actually high intensity [00:57:00] cardio. I'm not against high intensity cardio. I think high intensity cardio is good at times, but it's the duration and it's also the, uh, you know, what would I say, the consistency of cardio because you can't just do one event of HIT every week and expect to be in condition.

  You know, especially when you've got, you're going up against people or competing against people who are doing cardio every day.

  Michelle: And actually, too much exercise can also impact the

  hormone. So it's a good, you, know, you, want a good

  Jay: there's no such thing as too much exercise.

  Michelle: Oh, no, there is. Oh no, there is.

  Jay: No, no, no. It'll shut down the

  Michelle: hypothalamic.

  Jay: exercise. 99% of people cannot do too much exercise.

  But yes, what you're saying is,

  is shut down their periods.

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I mean, don't get me wrong, like that's where I was going with this. Like people that exercise too much have a compulsion, but if you walk like three times a day uphill for 10 or 15 minutes, that's not too much

  Michelle: No, no, [00:58:00] no. A hundred

  Jay: No, I know. We agree on the same thing.

  I'm just saying that like I hear people say, I'm overtrained and I'm like, you wouldn't even know what overtrain was if you got hit with a board in the head. Like Overtrained is what you just said. Like people that do um, ultra endurance stuff and they run 40 miles a day or stupid shit like that, right?

  Where they do lose their periods. And by the way, all of those people I've worked with, a lot of those people, they've come to me like I have to correct their their life, but many of them have like a compulsion. Running or doing it, like you said, over training. And so it's like you have to actually psychologically show them like, Hey, dude, if you keep doing this, burning through all these calories every day, it's not actually helping you.

  It's making you worse. But yes, um, you don't need much. I mean, um, the average person to to, to lower their body fat, improve their insulin resistance, you know, needs three or four cardio sessions a week and two or three, uh, you know, 15, 20 minute lifting weight sessions. That's it. But again, you have to do them effectively.

  You really have to do them effectively. And I [00:59:00] always tell people, if you don't know what that means, hire a professional coach or trainer that can teach you the movements and teach you the correct form, um, to understand how to do this. Because obviously most people go through their whole life and never hire a coach or a trainer and just continually do the same thing over and over again and literally get no results and actually physiologically get wor worse as they age.

  Michelle: Mm-hmm. Well, that's, um, great information. And so for people listening that wanna check out your books and wanna follow you and get more information, how can they find you?

  Jay: Yeah. So, um, the, the primary way to find me is my website, which is JAY campbell.com. I also have a domain there that for people who watch me on podcasts, they can go to j campbell.com/free-info and they can download a copy of all the books I've written right now, there's eight. The ninth one will be up probably in like 60 days once it's out and published.

  I do give my books away for [01:00:00] free all the time because obviously I do know that there are many people who are disadvantaged in third and fourth and fifth World who can't, you know, economically afford, uh, a book purchased on Amazon or purchased wherever. So I always give away my books for free. And then of course, you can also find me, uh, on social media, j Campbell 3, 3, 3.

  And then my company is Bio Longevity Labs. Um, dot com and um, right now we're probably the second biggest company in the world selling therapeutic peptides and bio regulators and small molecules.

  Michelle: Okay. Awesome. Well, thank you so much Jay. This was a great conversation. Um, we

  went into lots of different topics, but it was all fun. It was

  all great stuff.

  Jay: definitely was. I really appreciate you having me on.

  Michelle: Okay.

  [01:01:00]

Ep 376 The Secret to Blood Flow, Hormones, and Longevity with Nitric Oxide Expert Dr. Nathan S. Bryan

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I’m joined by Dr. Nathan S. Bryan (@drnathansbryan), a leading scientist and world-renowned expert in nitric oxide research.

We explore why nitric oxide is foundational for fertility, blood flow, hormone health, and longevity, and how poor nitric oxide production impacts egg quality, uterine lining, sperm motility, insulin sensitivity, and mitochondrial function. Dr. Bryan also breaks down common misconceptions around beet supplements, mouthwash, fluoride, and medications that can quietly block nitric oxide production.

This episode is a must-listen for anyone trying to conceive, navigating hormonal imbalances, or looking to support long-term reproductive and metabolic health by addressing root causes.

Key Takeaways: 

• Why blood flow to the uterus, ovaries, and testes is essential for conception and IVF success

• How nitric oxide supports cellular energy, oxygen delivery, and reproductive function

• The connection between nitric oxide, blood sugar regulation, and PCOS

• Why nitric oxide is critical for energy production, aging, and cellular repair

• How sugar, fluoride, mouthwash, and acid-blocking medications impair nitric oxide production
  

Disclaimer: The information shared on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider before making any changes to your health or fertility care.

Ready to discover what your body needs most on your fertility journey?
Take the personalized quiz inside The Wholesome Fertility Journey and get tailored resources to meet you exactly where you are:

 https://www.michelleoravitz.com/the-wholesome-fertility-journey

For more about my work and offerings, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Curious about ancient wisdom for fertility? Grab my book The Way of Fertility:
https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

Join the Wholesome Fertility Facebook Group for free resources & community support:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Connect with me on social:
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Facebook: The Wholesome Lotus

Disclaimer: Some of the links shared are affiliates but this is at no cost to you and can even get you discounted prices!

• Transcript

  Michelle: [00:00:00] Episode number 376 of the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. On today's episode, I'm joined by Dr. Nathan S. Bryan, a leading scientist biotech entrepreneur, and one of the most recognized experts in nitric oxide research. With over a hundred peer reviewed publications and dozens of patients, Dr.

  Brian has spent nearly three decades studying how nitric oxide is produced in the body, where it goes, and why it matters for blood flow, cellular energy, longevity, and disease prevention. In this conversation, we go deep into what nitric oxide is. Why it's foundational for circulation and oxygen delivery, and how it influences key systems that matter for fertility, including uterine blood flow, mitochondrial function, and metabolic health.

  Dr. Brian also challenges a [00:01:00] major misconception many of us have heard in the wellness world, including practitioners such as myself, that B products automatically boost nitric oxide. He explains why many commercial nitric oxide boosters don't deliver what they claim. And what needs to be in place for the body to make nitric oxide effectively.

  We also cover what blocks nitric oxide production, including blood sugar issues, certain medications and disruptions to the oral microbiome, plus his perspective on testing dosing and what true nitric oxide support looks like. When the body can't produce enough on its own, if you're a practitioner, a biohacker, or someone who is on the fertility journey and really cares about fertility, circulation, and healthy aging, this episode will give you a fresh science-based understanding of a molecule that may be far more central to health than most [00:02:00] people realize.

  All of Dr. Brian's links, including his book resources are in the episode notes, and this also includes a coupon code that you can use for the products we talk about. Now, let's dive in. Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. I'm Michelle, a fertility acupuncturist here to provide you with resources on how to create a wholesome approach to your fertility journey.

  Welcome to the podcast, Dr. Brian.

  Dr. Nathan: So much for having me. Great to be with you.

  Michelle: Yeah. So I'm really excited to get into the topic that we're gonna be talking about today. But before we get started, I always like to have a little introductory origin story and how you got into the work that you're doing.

  Dr. Nathan: Yeah, for sure. You know, just like any life or career, it's been a journey. I'm a small town, Texas boy, grew up, you know, about an hour outside of Austin in central [00:03:00] Texas. Went to the University of Texas outta high school, got a degree in biochemistry, and then from there I went to LSU School of Medicine.

  I got a PhD in Molecular and Cellular Physiology, and that was at the time the Nobel Prize had just been awarded for the discovery of nitric oxide. You know, I was a first year student, was looking to do research and was introduced to this new science of nitric oxide. So that's where. You know, I was first introduced to this.

  We knew it was an important discovery, an important molecule because a Nobel Prize had just been awarded. But even then, you know, it's been 25, almost 30 years ago. Now when, and there were, and understand nitric oxide is a gas that's naturally produced in the body, and once it's produced, it's gone in less than a second.

  So the work I did during my PhD was trying to figure out when nitric oxides produce, where does it go? What does it become and how does it signal? Then once we figured that out, then I went to Boston University School of Medicine. I did a, a postdoctoral fellowship there in cardiology and vascular biology, continuing the research on nitric [00:04:00] oxide and, you know, publishing a, a number of papers, high impact papers.

  And then from there I was recruited by Fred Murad, one of the guys who shared the Nobel Prize and got my first faculty position as a professor of molecular medicine at UT Medical School in Houston. Back in. In Texas looking for a way to get back to Texas from Boston. You know, it was culture shock for a small town, country boy, but really my work continued There is, you know, for 10 years in academia made a lot of discoveries, fought a lot of patents ' cause we'd figured out how to make nitric oxide.

  We understood how the human body made nitric oxide. We understand what, what led to a loss of its natural production. And then we could start to develop product technology and drug therapy. To overcome nitric oxide deficiency. So, you know, 25 years you know, a lot of education, a lot of training a lot of discoveries, a lot of research.

  And you know, I've published today, I guess over a hundred peer reviewed papers, dozens of issues, patents. And so here we are and we've learned a lot, but we still have a lot to do.

  Michelle: You sound very smart [00:05:00] and well versed. Which I love because I think that when you really spend your career focusing on one thing, you really become an expert and it's becomes like your, you know, and, and it is an important thing you're focusing on. I know with my work. We work a lot on trying to get more blood flow to the uterus to try to get help women conceive and also have more success in through IVF where when they're uterine lining is too thin.

  So some of the things that I do is I try to, you know, suggest things like bee root things that increase nitric oxide. But I know, you know, a lot more on really how the body processes it, which I'm really excited to learn about today as a practitioner. And I know a lot of people listening to this, this is actually a really important molecule.

  Molecule you said, right?

  Dr. Nathan: Yeah, well hopefully after this conversation we're gonna get you off of beet juice. Juice is not a source of nitric oxide.

  Michelle: Okay, so, so I wanna learn more about this 'cause I know that it [00:06:00] helps with blood. It's not beet juice. It's a beet root powder,

  Dr. Nathan: Yeah. Good root powder. Yeah. But unfortunately most of the commercial products out there are, are, have, provide zero nitric oxide benefit. In fact, we've used a number of these as placebos in clinical trials. But because I think there's, there's a misconception and I, that's why these conversations are important because we have to, we have to correct the record.

  Michelle: For sure. And I'll be the first to say that I'm always learning new things. And of course, you know, sometimes we, we learn wrong things as well. So, first of all, explain to people who are first hearing about this, what nitric oxide is past, like being a molecule. Like what is it, what does it do in the body?

  And and then we can go into the misconceptions.

  Dr. Nathan: Sure. Well now nitric oxide, as I mentioned, it's a gas, it's what we call a signaling molecule. It's how cells in the body communicate with one another. It was first discovered as a vasodilator, meaning that it, when it's produced in the lining of the blood vessel. It opens up the blood vessel. So now we're gonna get better blood flow and oxygen delivery to those [00:07:00] downstream tissues.

  But today we know that it's much more than a vasodilator. It's a signaling molecule that it affects protein structure and functions and turns enzymes. And, and on or off, depending upon which enzymes it is, it mobilizes our own stem cells. So now we're gonna repair and replace dysfunctional cells and lead to better recovery.

  It activates the mitochondria. The energy producing organelles of the cell. And then it also activates an enzyme called telomerase, which prevents the ends of our chromosomes or telomeres from our chromosomes from getting shorter. And we know now know today that the shorter telomere, shorter lifespan, longer telomeres, longer lifespan.

  So when we look at what nitric oxide does, it improves blood flow circulation, oxygen delivery, mobilizes stem cells activates mitochondria, prevents telomere shortening. That's the foundation for human optimization, longevity disease prevention. Because the hot marks of every single chronic disease is low blood flow.

  You lose the regulation of blood flow to that organ, [00:08:00] and then you develop inflammation, oxidative stress, and immune dysfunction. And fortunately for us, and fortunately for the world, nitric oxide overcomes all of this. It addresses the root cause of every age related chronic disease.

  Michelle: That's incredible. You know, originally I'm thinking about how it dilates blood vessels and that helps with blood flow. They did actually see that blood flow as women age impacts equality as well. And you're mentioning also the mitochondria and how it really kind of is an anti-age or longevity molecule.

  So I would love to talk about how how it is absorbed best in the body.

  Dr. Nathan: Well, again, nitric oxides a gas, it's not a pill you can swallow. It's, you don't get it in a powder, you don't get it in a capsule, and you don't get it in a gummy or a chew. We have to understand how the human body makes this molecule. Then allow for its natural production, or you can do, like we did, we actually create a solid dose [00:09:00] form of ni oxide gas.

  So, you know, in 2007, we, we published the very first study showing that nitric oxide is actually a hormone. So not dissimilar to estrogen replacement or estradiol in women, or testosterone in men, or, you know, thyroid hormone replacement. We have to restore the production of this molecule or actually give the actual molecule.

  So if your body can't make it, then we have to provide it for you. But I think most importantly, you've gotta figure out why is your body not producing ample amounts of nitric oxide? That's the fundamental question we should try to answer. And then stop doing the things that inhibit its production, start doing the things that can activate and stimulate its production.

  And then we, we've, we've addressed a lot of root cause of, of chronic disease. But again, nitric oxide is a gas when it's produced either in the lining of the blood vessel or it's produced in the stomach or in the oral cavity from bacteria. It's absorbed immediately. It binds to activates an enzyme called gu cyclase starts the second messenger system.

  It binds directly to proteins or cystine ths on proteins, and it [00:10:00] affects the protein, the structure and function. Hemoglobin is the best example. You know, when we breathe in oxygen, oxygen binds the he iron of hemoglobin. It goes from the arteries to the vein, and then during that arterial transit, arterial venous transit through the capillaries.

  A hemoglobin molecule senses what's called a P 50, the 50% oxygen saturation, and then once it senses that it undergoes a confirmational change to offload oxygen and pick up carbon dioxide. But nitric oxide is what regulates that nitric oxide bound to a single cysteine residue is what regulates hemoglobin allery and oxygen delivery.

  So without mitric oxide, you can't deliver oxygen. And that's what we saw during COVID. People weren't out of oxygen, they were out of nitric oxide to deliver that oxygen.

  Michelle: Oh, interesting.

  Dr. Nathan: Yeah. The people that got sick and died from COVID with the same people get sick and died from the seasonal flu.

  And those are the people who are nitric oxide deficient, the elderly hearted diabetics, kidney disease patients. Yeah, so [00:11:00] immunocompromised patients, especially the respiratory viruses, are always nitric oxide deficient.

  Michelle: So, so that's what I was gonna ask you actually, what inhibits production. You had mentioned a couple of different things that can do that. You said immunodeficient people, what about autoimmune conditions?

  Dr. Nathan: Yeah, autoimmune is just, it's really the inability to recognize self from non-self, and, you know, so that leads to chronic inflammation. So a lot of times nitric oxide isn't gonna fix. The autoimmunity from my perspective, it starts in the in the stomach and not having sufficient stomach acid to break down proteins into amino acid to get peptide fragments absorbed across the gut.

  And your body recognizes as a foreign antigen you need develop autoimmune disease, but it certainly can suppress the inflammatory response. Nitric oxide is a potent anti-inflammatory molecule. In fact, they have a number of patents on a method of reducing inflammation by nitric oxide. But when, when we get back to the fundamental question of what leads to a loss of nitric oxide production, we had first understand how does the human body make it?

  And so there's, there's two primary [00:12:00] pathways. There's an enzyme that we talked about called nitric oxide synthase, and this enzyme converts arginine into nitric oxide.

  What leads to a loss of function of this enzyme is really sugar. Sugar binds to it and sugar is sticky, and it sticks to this enzyme and makes it to where it can't do its job.

  Anything that leads to an elevation in blood sugar and an elevation in insulin is gonna completely inhibit nitric oxide production. And then, you know, it's the

  Michelle: that's why diabetics.

  Dr. Nathan: No, that's right. That's why diabetics have poor healing wounds. Diabetic macular degeneration, retinopathy peripheral neuropathy 'cause they're not getting adequate blood supply to the nerves, to the eyes, to the wound.

  And the, you can't, you can't heal the body without adequate circulation and, and blood flow.

  So, yeah, being a diabetic you know, then the common risk factors. Smoking, sedentary lifestyle some drug therapy, for instance, getting your cholesterol too low, cholesterol lowering medications, proton pump inhibitors, and acids completely shut down the body's ability to produce nitric [00:13:00] oxide.

  Michelle: Hmm.

  Dr. Nathan: so those are the ones that affect the enzyme, but then. We also discovered that, that there's bacteria that live in and on our body that produce nitric oxide. And so anything that we're doing to disrupt the bacteria.

  What is that? Well, it's fluoride. Fluoride in drinking water, fluoride in our toothpaste that's killing the entire oral microbiome.

  It's anything that's, that's labeled antiseptic, antiseptic mouthwash. You know, Listerine runs the commercials that they kill 99.99% of the bacteria in your mouth.

  They're actually proud of that. They advertise that.

  We know that, that doing that killing the sterilizing, the mouth, makes people sick and chronic disease.

  And yet you see the advertising running. They're proud of it because they're making people sick. And so we and others have published that if you use mouthwash, it kills the bacteria, decreases nitric oxide production, and your blood pressure goes up. And high blood pressure is the number one driver of the number one killer of men and women worldwide.

  En Listerine is leading the charge on killing people.

  Michelle: Wow.

  Dr. Nathan: they're driving the number one driver of the number one [00:14:00] killer of men and women worldwide. So we have to get rid of fluoride in our toothpaste. We gotta get rid of fluoride in the drinking water. We gotta stop using anything that's antiseptic, antiseptic mouthwash, and you gotta get off anac acids.

  So now, and, and you gotta stop eating sugar, anything that causes an increase in blood sugar. Now, if you just address those four things, now you've released the breaks on the body's ability to make nitric oxide. And now if you exercise, if you do deep breathing. If you get balanced diet in moderation, 18 hour fast, good protein, good quality fats, less carbs, no sugar, then the body's optimized to produce its own nitric oxide.

  Michelle: Amazing. And then are you, so typically you would say that it's best to make it yourself first of all, but then you had mentioned that there are certain, I guess, capsules or supplements or tablets that do give off this gas.

  Dr. Nathan: Yeah, so the, the goal of medicine should be to give the body what it needs removed from the body, what it doesn't need, and let [00:15:00] the body do its job, right. That's what I've tried to do as a biochemist and physiologist, is understand the mechanism of disease to the extent that we can fix it. Yeah. The best approach is to remove from the body.

  But you know, there's some people that have genetic SNPs or what we call single nucleotide polymorphisms. They don't have a functional copy of certain enzymes, so then you have to supplement or you have to intervene therapeutic. And so you can have snips in your nitric oxide synthase gene. You can have snips in the M-T-H-F-R, which, you know, 45

  Of Americans have.

  And then now you're compromised in the ability to make nitric oxide. So in those patients, you have to have some outside help. And that's where, you know, my product, technology comes in. Because again, if your body can't make it, we have to give it to you. We have to make it for you.

  So you know, you, you can't find that in a capsule.

  Nitric oxides a gas, you can't get it from a false swallowing, a capsule. So you have to make the gas. And I've made a

  Michelle: why did they sell them? Trust me. Crazy.

  Dr. Nathan: well [00:16:00] because there's a

  Michelle: see them a

  Dr. Nathan: There's a huge market for that. And these companies are for-profit companies and they're trying to convince the consumers that there's a nitric oxide benefit.

  But you have to understand, these companies are run by executives. Marketing people, former marketing executives who don't have any idea about the science of nitric oxide. So just like most people out there, you see these commercials on tv. Hey, take this beats product because it produces nitric oxide. And I've tested every single one of these beat products.

  They don't provide any nitric oxide because it's not the beets, it's not the beet root, it's not the beet root powder. There's a, there's a molecule in there that has to be present, that has to, then you have to have the right oral bacteria. You have to have stomach acid production. Assuming everything is in place and intact, there's a certain amount of of nitrate in that beep pedal that has to be present because this is an inherent, inefficient system.

  So number one, most of the bead products out there don't contain any detectable nitrate in 'em, so they're not providing the active [00:17:00] ingredient in the bete. Number two is two outta three Americans use mouthwash. So even if there was nitrate and that beat powdered. 70% of the people wouldn't be able to metabolize it end nitric oxide because they're using mouthwash or because they're using fluoride toothpaste or because they have fluoride in their drinking water.

  And then you have to have stomach acid for this process to work. And there's 200 million prescriptions written for anac acids every year. Two outta three Americans using over the counter anac acid. So even if the beets that you were taking contain sufficient amount of nitrate. 90% of the population would not get a nitric oxide benefit for it because they don't have the right bacteria.

  They don't have stomach acid. But again, 95% of the beets that are sold on the market don't contain any detectable nitrate or nitrite. Because here's the deal, these are water soluble vitamins. And if people don't, most consumers don't know how to manufacture a finished product. So you gotta take beets out of the ground.

  You gotta create this, what's called a high bricks concentrated. Then you gotta dry it to make a beet powder. And they [00:18:00] put this in high pressure, high temperature. And all the water soluble nutrients come out. So all you're left with is a dead beet. It's a dead beet powder. It does nothing. It provides absolutely no good.

  The only thing it does is it turn your pee and your poop pink and red and causes a lot of anxiety. So beets are not nitric oxide, and that's, that's one of my biggest sources of frustration because you turn on your TV or turn on the radio and you see these companies advertising beats and it's fraudulent.

  It's deceptive

  Michelle: I'm seeing it on my, you know, some of the products or my you know, dispensary.

  Dr. Nathan: Yeah.

  Michelle: of that information

  Dr. Nathan: Well, here's the problem. I mean, look, I'm, I'm for capitalism and, and for pro, but you have to be, we have to maintain the integrity of the field and maintain the integrity

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Dr. Nathan: 'cause people, and you as a practitioner who recommend this and want and understand the science to the extent that you're trying to increase blood flow to the uterus so you can improve IVF from prove natural conception, but.

  People will come back and go, well look, nitric oxide doesn't work because I've [00:19:00] been taking this beat product. It didn't improve my blood pressure. It didn't make an effect positive effect on me. So nitric oxide doesn't work, and that's a gross misinterpretation because nitric oxide always works. What didn't work is that company, what didn't work was that product that they were selling you.

  'cause that product didn't produce nitric oxide

  Michelle: Right.

  Dr. Nathan: body WA wasn't able to utilize the components in that to make nitric oxide naturally. So that product failed you, that company failed you, and it could kill the entire field. And that's why I'm so passionate and adamant about calling these companies out.

  And you know, many of these companies have sued me because I reveal and tell the truth about their products and their si, their lack of science, and they don't like it. But we have to tell the truth.

  Michelle: Yeah, I agree. And I appreciate that because it's information that I was given. As a practitioner and I'd rather know the science and really understand and kind of pick the brains of people like you to really know how it works. And as far [00:20:00] as testing this, are there ways people can test it? I know they have test strips, saliva strips.

  Do those work?

  Dr. Nathan: I'm the ones who developed that nitric oxide salivary test strip back in 2010.

  Michelle: Okay.

  Dr. Nathan: And so the idea was to answer the question that you posed is how do I know if I'm deficient in nitric oxide? And because nitric oxide is a gas and gone in less than a second. But also because I, I was the one who mapped out that this fingerprint of immunobiology, when it's produced, where does it go?

  What does it become?

  I, I developed a salivary test strip with the intention of this using salivary nitrite as a proxy for, for nitric oxide production. And so if you know what you're doing, they can be useful. But these are not nitric oxide test strips, by the way. They're not detecting nitric oxide.

  What we found over time was there's really no false pos, false negatives. So if you, if you apply your saliva to that test strip and it doesn't turn pink, then that tells us that your saliva's deficient in a molecule called [00:21:00] nitrite. But if you, if you light it up, then it tells your saliva has nitrite. Now what's the source of that nitrite in the saliva?

  It could be from in o production. It could be from you're eating a lot of green leafy vegetables and you have the right bacteria. Or it could be. You have an active oral infection that's completely independent and, and basically con contradictory to systemic nitric oxide production. This is why I abandoned those test trips back probably in 20 14, 20 15, because they were giving too many false positives.

  You'd have people show up with high blood pressure, erectile dysfunction, diabetes, and they would like that test trip up, and it's not that they're replete in nitric oxide, it's they have an active oral infection.

  So we would send them to the dentist and sure enough they'd have an asymptomatic infection that we picked up only through the saliva test strip.

  So I abandoned those and I abandoned the patents on them at the University of Texas. So once you abandon the patent on something, now you have all these companies out there selling these test strips that I developed, but [00:22:00] abandoned and trying to convince you it's a nitric oxide test strip. So, you know, I don't, I don't measure, I don't test because we rely on symptoms, but I give nitric, there's only two people in the world who need nitric oxide.

  There's people who are sick and wanna get well, and there's people who are well and don't wanna get sick.

  All in one of those two categories, you should take a daily nitric oxide because the older we get

  Michelle: so everybody pretty much.

  Dr. Nathan: everybody, so if, if, if everybody needs it, just like everybody needs to drink water and, and breathe air, then what do we test?

  Do we test that we, I mean you can during COVID for pulse oximeter and you can test levels of dehydration, but we know it's just good practice

  Michelle: Right. So it's something that everybody can really benefit from.

  Dr. Nathan: Yeah, for sure.

  Michelle: And, and is there any downside to taking it too much or is there any anything that people need to consider?

  Dr. Nathan: Well, yeah, dose dictates poison. Obviously you can drink too much water and die from hypotonic lysis of cells. But so what we try to do, and this is, this is very important and very different than any other company in [00:23:00] any of the product out there is what I try to do is understand how much nitric IDE does the human body make in 24 hours.

  Then try to understand through diet, lifestyle, drug therapy how much is a normal or an average human making in that 24 hours? And then let's supplement the difference, right? So we know that, let's use vitamin D for an example. We know optimal levels of blood. Vitamin D is 80. If we do blood draws and it's 30, we treat to get it to 80.

  So we're supplementing the delta or what's missing? That's easy for vitamin D because it's stable in blood and we can measure and, and treat the number. Nitric oxide is not so easy. So what I had to do was create a summation of how much nitric oxide is made through the enzyme, how much nitric oxide could be oly made through the diet, assuming oral bacteria, assuming stomach acid production.

  And then we, we take the food, we take normal dietary patterns, we look at endothelial dysfunction in a wide variety of patients. We say, okay, the average American, this is how much optimal the average American's making this. So I need to supplement this. And that's what my logic does. It [00:24:00] supplements the delta.

  So what we're finding is because of the pharmacokinetics and pharmacodynamics of this delivery, if you take one loss in every 12 hours, that gives you a 24 hour coverage. But that's for someone who needs, who's kind of a supplemental dose, right? But someone who's healthy. But that's much different than somebody with Alzheimer's, with cardiovascular disease, with erectile dysfunction.

  So then the, the metabolic demands and the the needs for them are much, maybe much higher. Then what I need to kind of just be prophylactic and and proactive, but based on the published clinical data, we know that one lozenge every four hours is completely safe. But if

  Michelle: And that's how you, that's how it gets administered.

  Dr. Nathan: right through a lozenge, it dissolves over five to six minutes, and as it's dissolving, it's releasing nitric oxide gas.

  Michelle: So, what did you say? One lozenge every how

  Dr. Nathan: every four hours, the only safety data that we have, that we have published. A 15-year-old kid taking one lozenge every four hours for [00:25:00] management of his resistant hypertension. And we, we measured all signs of, of safety and toxicity. And in that particular patient population, there was no safety issue. So I, there's probably, we could, we could increase that, but I'm just tell to tear on the side of caution what's published in the medical literature is

  Michelle: So that would be the safe amount that,

  Dr. Nathan: Yeah.

  But that's an

  Michelle: unless they need.

  Dr. Nathan: Yeah. That's an extreme case of a kid with a very rare genetic disorder. Most people you know can get away with one lozenge every, you know, six, eight, maybe 10 or 12 hours. But you dose, you dose based on demand and the underlying conditions or deficiencies.

  Michelle: Got it. And what would happen if you had too much? What are the symptoms?

  Dr. Nathan: There's only two signs of toxicity. Number one, you would lose an un. You, you would have an unsafe drop in blood pressure 'cause understand nitric oxide dilates the blood vessels. If you take too much, it's gonna dilate all the blood vessels. You're gonna use lose profusion pressure, you may get syncope or lightheaded because you can't perfuse the brain and you may pass out.[00:26:00]

  And then number two is a condition called med hemoglobinemia. So again, too much will oxidize the heme iron of hemoglobin and reduce the oxygen carrying capacity of the red cells. You'll get cyanosis, you'll get blue around the lips. But that's, that's you'll, you'll have an unsafe drop in blood pressure long before you start to develop any clinical met hemoglobin levels.

  But those, those are the only two signs of toxicity, unsafe drop in blood pressure, and, and met formation.

  Michelle: Got it. And so the way your company administers it, you said, is a lozenge. You just let it dissolve in the mouth every six hours on average for just somebody who wants to kind of get ahead of the game and just supple.

  Dr. Nathan: Yeah, that's right. So we, it's again, we, it's a gas, we're producing a gas, and my claim to fame has been, I've made a solid dose form of nitric oxide gas. People said it couldn't be done. The only way they've administered nitric oxide historically is in an inpatient setting. They hook you up to a nitric [00:27:00] oxide gas cylinder and administer it through a nasal canula.

  They're delivering the actual gas. So my, my challenge was how do we deliver this in an outpatient setting for people who are not admitted to the hospital in critical care? And how do we do this prophylactically? So to create a delivery system that actually delivered this guest. So again, if your body can make it, we had to develop this, it's called an orally disintegrating tablet and it with a very specific dissolution rate that releases a certain amount of nitric oxide over a very finite period of time.

  And the purpose of purpose of that is to recapitulate what the body would normally produce. So that's number one. Then number two, I wanted to improve the body's ability to naturally make it. So how do we, how do we address the root cause? We know how to now re couple the, the nitric oxide synthase and improve the function in the lining of the blood vessels.

  So now we're, we're seeing about a 20% improvement in natural production of nitric oxide within 20 minutes of taking a single lozenge. And then also 'cause it resides in the mouth, it's completely [00:28:00] changing the oral microbiome. It's killing the pathogenic bacteria. It's giving the, the good non-pathogenic commensal bacteria an environment in which they can grow and repopulate.

  And outcompete the bad guys. So if your body can't make nitric oxide, we're doing it for you, but we're fixing the reason your body's lost the ability to make it, and it's, it's remarkable technology.

  Michelle: And what are you had mentioned some of the benefits, but can you give me as much, have a list of benefits

  Dr. Nathan: Well, I'll tell you what's published. I mean, we do clinical studies on this technology, but if you have high blood pressure or an elevation of blood pressure, it'll, it'll normalize your blood pressure. It'll improve glucose Tate. So it'll, it'll bring down fasting glucose levels that improve insulin signaling,

  Improve exercise performance, improve sexual performance, improve executive function, improve cognition increase stem cells in circulation.

  We've reversed kidney disease within five days. We've reversed heart disease within five months.

  Michelle: Wow.

  Dr. Nathan: So that's, that's a short list.[00:29:00]

  Michelle: That's incredible. And it works also for things like Alzheimer's, things that are because I know that there's a lot of people that say you can't really reverse it. What are your findings? Just on, on certain, 'cause you were just

  Dr. Nathan: We're doing. Yeah, we're develop. So we have a drug discovery group. Brian Therapeutics my company. We're developing drug therapy specifically for Alzheimer's, and I'm absolutely convinced with a hundred percent certainty that nitric oxide will completely prevent your reverse and treat Alzheimer's disease.

  Michelle: Wow,

  Dr. Nathan: 'cause it addresses the root cause. Let's think about what Alzheimer's is. It's a vascular, metabolic disease, right? So if you don't have adequate blood flow to the brain, then you're not gonna deliver oxygen. The cells aren't gonna function. You have insulin resistance. In fact, Alzheimer's has been called diabetes Type three.

  If you can't get glucose into the cell, the mitochondria can't produce energy and the proteins don't know what to do. They misfold and they show up as amyloid plaque and TALs. So mild cognitive impairment, vascular dementia, and Alzheimer's is, is a deficiency [00:30:00] or symptoms, a progressive symptom of nitric oxide deficiency?

  Because nitric oxide is what dilates the blood vessels perfuse the brain. We publish 2 20 11 that nitric oxide is required for insulin signaling and glucose tate. So if you can't make nitric oxide, you can't dilate the blood vessels. You don't perfuse the brain. You don't get glucose into the cell. You have mitochondrial dysfunction, you get protein misfolding, and you call that amyloid plaque and tal tangles.

  So if what we do now is if we, if we take these patients early enough and we start giving them nitric oxide through drug therapy, we're dilating the blood vessels, we're improving blood flow to the brain. We've demonstrated this through SPECT scans and functional MRIs. We're improving glucose Sub Tate.

  We're more efficiently delivering oxygen. We're improving mitochondrial function. And when you do that, the neurons work. The mitochondria produce energy, proteins do their job. They don't misfold. There's no tangles and there's no amyloid plaque. And their memory improves, their cognition improves. And we've demonstrated this.

  Now we're going through the FDA and [00:31:00] developing a FDA approved clinical trial to demonstrate that we, this will actually work in these early Alzheimer's patients. So this, you know, we hope to start that study maybe the end of the year, first of next year. But the data are very, very impressive. It makes sense because we understand the mechanism of Alzheimer's development, progression and disease.

  And the reason that people think that Alzheimer's isn't curable or treatable is because they've gone after the wrong target. All Alzheimer's drugs have failed, and they failed because they're targeting the tangles and the amyloid plaque making monoclonal antibodies against those. The amyloid plaque and the tal tangos do not cause the disease.

  They're the consequence of the disease. So of course these drugs look, these

  Michelle: Isn't that kind of similar to cholesterol?

  Dr. Nathan: say again.

  Michelle: Similar to cholesterol? It's not. It comes for a reason.

  Dr. Nathan: Yeah, no, look, treated treating cholesterol for heart disease. I mean, all you have to do is look at the numbers. Still the number one killer of men and women worldwide and [00:32:00] cholesterol lowering medication is causing a rampant of disease from diabetes to cancers to myalgia. So, yeah, that's the worst thing I could imagine was getting a cholesterol below 200.

  Michelle: Wow. Yeah, it's fascinating 'cause of course, especially with re reproductive health, it really does impact it because it's the backbone of so many hormones and. I also think about, you know, the whole idea of how the glu, the glucose intake and like insulin resistance in cases of PCOS. So I imagine, I don't know if you have any data on that.

  That would be really fascinating to hear.

  Dr. Nathan: Yeah, no, for sure. You know, we, we see a lot of, and, and work with a lot of endocrinologists, OBGYNs, who treat a lot of PCOS women. But look, it's, it's a multifactorial disease. But at the end of the day, they, they suffer from the same thing. Insulin resistance, poor circulation, poor blood flow, poor cellular turnover, and so you can trace that back to a loss of nitric oxide production.

  There, there are other contributing. Factors to that, but [00:33:00] certainly you can improve insulin signaling. And then the other thing is, you know, if you, and you mentioned it, if you cholesterol, if you don't have enough cholesterol, you can't make estrogen and testosterone. But really for the viability of a cell, whether it's an ovum or a sperm cell, you have to have a, a good cell membrane that maintains a cellular potential.

  And these phospho, phospholipid bilayers are embedded with cholesterol 'cause it acts as an insulator to maintain that electrical potential or separation. And if you don't have a good cell membrane with a lot of good cholesterol in there, then you lose that electrical potential and the cell becomes dysfunctional.

  Michelle: Right. This is so fascinating. So have you had any clinical trials or studies on reproductive dysfunction besides Ed you'd mentioned, which is important because a lot of. Couples that are trying to conceive, sometimes the man is experiencing that, so that can obviously throw wrench into the whole plan of trying to [00:34:00] conceive.

  Dr. Nathan: Yeah. Not, not outside of erectile dysfunction. I mean, that's obviously the, the obvious indication because it's, it's, it's, it's a vascular problem. Typically in men, if you can't produce nitric oxide, you can't dilate the blood vessels so men don't get inor. And the same thing with women, right? We have to have clitoral erections and increase in, in clitoral pressure, in labial pressure, in order for women to have an orgasm.

  And if they can't make nitric oxide, they. Can increase blood flow and increase volume and increase pressure. But I will tell you a story probably 20, 25 years ago when I was, I think a student at LSU and we were doing mouse studies and I realized early on I wasn't very good at sexing mouse determining if a mouse was male or female and so would've to sex them and then put them in separate cages.

  But obviously I put a male in a female cage and we were doing experiments, a nitric oxide experiment, we had a placebo, and we had, you know, a solution. If they would improve nitric oxide production or availability in this, these mice. And what we found was that [00:35:00] in the, in the mi in the cage of mice where I put the male that was getting the, the en enhanced nitric oxide, when these females had litters, they had like 12 to 15, 16 pups per litter.

  And this was consistent in the placebo. They were only getting, you know, eight, 10, maybe 11 pups. And so the, the vets would come to me and they'd go, what the hell is going on here? We've never seen this size of litters in these mice. And then I realized, well, how, then they go, well, how, why are they having babies?

  If they're all female? Then they sex them and realized I'd put a male I'd placed a male in the female cases. And so it was an interesting observation. So then we did a little follow up experiments and found that it's, it's improving sperm motility and

  The viability of the egg. Now, again, these are in healthy mice where we control the light environment, we control the food and everything they're doing.

  And that's much different than humans that have, you know, different genetics different lifestyle, different diet, different you know, drug therapy. A lot of things going on that we [00:36:00] cannot control. But I think now even in the published literature, you'll find that nitric oxide is gonna increase sperm motility, which is extremely important.

  Because now men today, sperm motility is a huge problem and I think part of the problem for, you know, the infertility and then, you know, you got the other side of the coin where, you know, how viable is the egg and do they have normal ovulation cycles and is it it proceeding down the fallopian tubes And is the uterine lining sufficient for embedding once it's fertilized to support the normal growth and replication of that cell?

  But there's so many things that are required to them. That's, it's really the miracle of, of conception. And childbirth. But again, if you're, if you don't have good blood flow to the uterine lining or the placenta to, to, to

  Michelle: Or the ovaries.

  Dr. Nathan: in the ovaries, then you're never gonna conceive. But it's, it's all about circulation, oxygen delivery, mitochondrial function.

  Michelle: That's fascinating. Are you thinking about maybe in the future looking in the reproductive [00:37:00] area?

  Dr. Nathan: You know, probably eventually, you know, we have a kind of a, a list of priorities. Number one is we've got our, our heart disease drug. We're, we're going into clinical trials this year through the FDA. Alzheimer's is obviously a very important topic and high on our priority. And then we're also making a topical drug for diabetic ulcers and non-healing wounds.

  So th those are really the top three because. You know, 65,000 Americans die in nursing homes every year from wounds that get infected and they get septic and die. And to me that's completely unacceptable because nitric oxide will heal every non-healing wound. We haven't seen a wound that we haven't been able to heal.

  Yeah.

  Michelle: Really fascinating. This, this work is so fascinating. I could definitely pick your brain for hours. I mean, it is just incredible to know, like, and I, and I always believe this, like there's always a solution out there. It just hasn't been discovered yet, but yet it's something so natural that the body produces, and I find this really remarkable.

  And so for people listening to this that are really [00:38:00] curious s to what kind of product you have or created, how can they find more information?

  Dr. Nathan: Well, number one, I, I'm less interested in selling a product and I'm more interested about providing education, but I, I encourage people to read my latest book called The Secret of Nitric Oxide, bring The Science to Life. 'cause it's, it's really. You know, it's informative and it's, it's one of these things that people need to know about this because they're things that they're doing that may be inhibiting the natural production of nitric oxide.

  And, and simply making some very simple cost saving lifestyle changes can have a dramatic impact on their life. So that's number one. For those interested in product technology, it's n one oh one.com. It's the letter n number one, letter o number one.com. So NON 1 0 1 dot com. Yeah, we make, we make a, the lozenge, we make a fermented beet powder because, you know, I, I was so frustrated with people you know, being deceived through these advertising, that if they, if they wanted beets in a beat, the source of nitric oxide, then I felt like I had a [00:39:00] responsibility and obligation.

  To give them a beat product that actually works, and that's called no beats or No beats. We make an entire skincare line of product because once I've figured out that we could heal wounds to topical nitric oxide, I thought, well, you know, the skin is an organ just like the sex organs, the heart and the brain, and we need blood flow to the skin.

  So I make a topical nitric oxide for fine lines and wrinkles, and then, you know, understanding the harmful antiseptic effects of fluoride and fluoride based toothpaste. I had to develop my own nitric oxide friendly toothpaste. It's hydroxyapatite based, so it remineralize the teeth, but it supports the microbiome. And so we're now, we're developing a, a nitric oxide friendly mouth rinse for people who want to use a mouthwash. Let's not, you know, sterilize their mouth, let's support the microbiome instead of killing it like the b Listerine of the world. And this is having a remarkable effect on, on public health.

  You know, we're finding people that have been on prescription medication for 30 or 40 years for their blood pressure. They switch to our toothpaste and start taking our lozenge and their blood pressure becomes normal, and now for the first time in 30 years, they don't get [00:40:00] prescription medication.

  Michelle: Incredible. I'm thinking about so many people in my family that I can help with this and, you know, on a, a lot of it is preventative. You know, my mom, thank God she has a great brain, but I want her to have that, you know, and continue that for a long time. So it's definitely something that I'm thinking about myself plus my patients.

  So it's also you know, for me, I am interested in looking into the product because I want it from. You know, somebody who really understands the whole process and how it can translate. And it sounds like you've done some clinical trials on the product itself.

  Dr. Nathan: For sure. Look, we go through the same rigor as we do for drug therapy because we have to, number one, like I said, we have to maintain the integrity of the science. And, you know, I had to step away from academia to make sure that, because here's what's happens in, in academic institutions, you license the technology to companies and they run with it, and then they do with it what they will.

  Because what we've done is so disruptive. You know, you can put your [00:41:00] technology in the wrong hands of people that really don't have your best interest or the interest of the field in mind. So I had to step away from academia to make sure that this technology saw the light of day because it's so disruptive.

  There are a lot of companies out there who would like to shed this technology and never let it see the light of day. So because we're focused only on the science and advancing the science and putting to market products that actually deliver on nitric oxide, and so I am less interested in, in developing products that are profitable than I am on delivering products that actually work.

  Obviously we're a for-profit company and we have to make money, but you know, I'm, I will never desert The science for profitability, which all companies out there do. I've seen it, I've been involved with 'em, and, you know, they, they become money hungry, envy or greedy and it, it doesn't do the field any good.

  So that, that's my mission, is to continue to put products on the market that deliver on nitric oxide and eventually all these other pretend to be nitric oxide companies will go [00:42:00] away. 'cause. When pe when people don't feel the effects or people they don't provide benefit, then people stop buying them.

  Michelle: Yeah, so interesting. Well thank you so much Dr. Brian. This was a great conversation. I think that a lot of people will be very interested in learning more about this and I guess they can find your book on Amazon. I have the link to. Your information, all your links in the episode notes if anybody wants to find them.

  But thank you so much. I learned a lot.

  Dr. Nathan: Well, thank you. Thank you very much. I would encourage people to subscribe to my YouTube channels, Dr. Nathan S. Bryan Nitric said we'll cover, you know, topics outside fertility and cardiovascular, so it's such an educational side. And then, you know, I'm on social media, Instagram, Dr. Nathan S. Bryan, LinkedIn.

  So thanks so much for having this conversation and yeah, I look forward to continuing on with you.

  Michelle: yeah, this is great. Thank you so much. Awesome.

Ep 375 The Untold Science Behind Your Most Creative (and Fertile) Days

In this episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, Michelle explores the powerful connection between creativity and fertility, revealing the science behind why women often feel more inspired during their fertile window. Drawing from a 2022 study published in Frontiers in Psychology, she breaks down research showing that originality peaks during ovulation and explains how fertility hormones influence creativity, brain chemistry, and emotional openness.

Michelle also asks a deeper question: could creativity itself support fertility? Blending neuroscience, nervous system regulation, Traditional Chinese Medicine, and hormonal health, she explains how creative flow can reduce stress, activate the parasympathetic nervous system, and support reproductive function. This episode offers a fresh, holistic perspective for anyone trying to conceive, recovering from burnout, or seeking to reconnect with their natural life force through creativity and flow.

Key Takeaways: 

• Creativity naturally peaks during ovulation, especially in originality and novelty

• Creative states calm the nervous system and reduce fertility-disrupting stress hormones

• From a TCM perspective, creativity and fertility are governed by the same principle: flow

• Engaging in creativity can help regulate hormones, emotions, and reproductive energy

• Fertility is not just biological, it is energetic, emotional, and expressive
  

Disclaimer: The information shared on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider before making any changes to your health or fertility care.

Ready to discover what your body needs most on your fertility journey?
Take the personalized quiz inside The Wholesome Fertility Journey and get tailored resources to meet you exactly where you are:

 https://www.michelleoravitz.com/the-wholesome-fertility-journey

For more about my work and offerings, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Curious about ancient wisdom for fertility? Grab my book The Way of Fertility:
https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

Join the Wholesome Fertility Facebook Group for free resources & community support:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Connect with me on social:
Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility
Facebook: The Wholesome Lotus

Disclaimer: Some of the links shared are affiliates but this is at no cost to you and can even get you discounted prices!

• Transcript

  Speaker: [00:00:00] Episode number 375 of the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. I'm your host, Michelle Orbitz. If you've been following my podcast, you know that I love exploring the intersection between the tangible and the invisible, the biology we can measure, and the subtle energies we can feel.

  Today we're diving into a question that bridges both worlds. If women are naturally more creative during their fertile window, could entering a creative state actually help support fertility? A 2022 study published in Frontiers in Psychology, caught my. Because it scientifically confirmed something. Many of us sensed intuitively that creativity peaks during the fertile phase of the menstrual cycle.

  But as I read it, another question started forming in my mind. If fertility influences creativity, could the reverse also be true? Could engaging in our creativity through art, music, writing, movement, or simple self-expression. Physiologically and energetically [00:01:00] nurture our fertility. Today, we'll unpack the possibility.

  We'll look at what the science says, how traditional Chinese medicine explains this connection and how creativity impacts the hormones and the nervous system. And I'll guide you through ways to activate your own creative fertile flow. So whether you're trying to conceive. Recovering from burnout or simply wanting to reconnect with your life force.

  This episode will invite you to see fertility and creativity in a completely new light. So be sure to stay tuned.

  Speaker 2: So let's begin with a research that sparked up this whole conversation, a within subject study published in Frontiers in Psychology titled [00:02:00] Enhanced Originality of Ideas in Women. During Ovulation, they recruited women with natural menstrual cycles, meaning they weren't on hormonal birth control and tested them three times across the month during menstruation, during ovulation, around the fertile window and during the late luteal phase.

  Which is the premenstrual window. Each time participants were asked to complete a creative test, for example, they had to think of as many uses as possible for a paperclip. It sounds simple, but it measures three key dimensions of creativity, fluency, which is how many ideas you can generate flexibility, how many categories your ideas can fall into, and originality, how novel or unexpected those ideas are.

  When the data were analyzed, one result stood out. Originality peaked during ovulation. In other words, women were not necessarily generating more ideas, but the quality of their ideas, their novelty and [00:03:00] uniqueness were significantly higher. The researchers also measured mood, energy, and hormonal indicators.

  While women did report feeling more positive and energized mid cycle, those factors didn't fully explain the creative spike. So what's happening here? One hypothesis grounded in evolutionary psychology is that the creativity may serve as a subtle biological signal. A fertility and vitality, just like birds sing or display colors.

  Humans might express reproductive health through creative behavior. But when I read that, I thought, wait, creativity isn't just a display, it's a state. It changes our hormones, our brain chemistry, and our energy. Flow. So if the fertility window boosts creativity, maybe the act of being creative can also awaken the body's fertile potential, and that's where the conversation gets really exciting when you enter a creative state, whether you're sketching, writing, cooking, or even daydreaming, [00:04:00] your brain shifts from a beta state, which is more analytical, linear thinking, to a more alpha theta state.

  So Alpha theta brainwaves are associated with relaxation, imagination, and flow. They activate the parasympathetic nervous system, which is the same branch responsible for rest, digestion, and reproduction in this state. Cortisol. Your stress hormone decreases dopamine and endorphins. Increase blood flow redistributes from the prefrontal cortex, the overthinking brain to the deeper emotional and sensory regions.

  From a fertility standpoint, this is huge. Stress hormones like cortisol and adrenaline can suppress the release of gonadotropin releasing hormone. Which controls ovulation. Chronic stress can also delay menstruation and reduce implantation rates. When we enter a state of flow through creativity, meditation, or acupuncture, we literally send a biochemical signal of safety to [00:05:00] the body.

  The signal says it's okay to create. It's safe to reproduce. We're not in danger. In this way, creativity can act as a biological bridge. Coming the very systems that often get dysregulated on the fertility journey. In traditional Chinese medicine, creativity and fertility are governed by the same principle, which is flow.

  So QI is the life force energy that circulates through the meridians of the body. When chi flows freely, every organ receives nourishment. When it stagnates symptoms can appear. The liver organ is responsible for this smooth flow of qi and it plays a central role here. It regulates both emotional expression and also supports reproductive function.

  In TCM. This isn't. Just coincidence, its correlation when the creative current is blocked emotionally. The reproductive current often mirrors that stagnation physically. On the other hand, when we free our expression [00:06:00] through journaling, through singing, dancing, painting, liver chi begins to move the uterus, receives more blood hormones, balance naturally.

  Creativity then becomes an energetic. Treatment in a form of medicine that restores that rhythm. Ayurveda also echoes this through the concept of Shakti, which is the feminine creative power that moves through all of life. When Shakti is suppressed, vitality declines. When it flows, we feel radiant, fertile, and alive.

  So let's connect the dots. The study mentioned before shows that fertility heightens creativity. Neuroscience shows that creativity activates parasympathetic balance. TCM shows that emotional and energetic flow nurtures reproductive function put together a form of feedback loop, which is what I call the creativity fertility loop.

  So here's how it works. Fertility hormones rise, increase openness, sociability, and idea [00:07:00] generation creativity expression uses those hormones constructively stimulating pleasure pathways and parasympathetic. Com, that Com reduces stress and improves blood flow enhancing reproductive function. Improved fertility and vitality feed back into a greater creative confidence.

  It's a continuous cycle of giving and receiving The. That same energy that creates art also creates life. Now, how can you use this in your own life? Here are five powerful ways to engage in creativity as a fertility enhancing practice. Number one, track your creative rhythm alongside your cycle. Each evening jot down not only physical symptoms, temperature, discharge, mood.

  But also creative impulses. Notice when ideas flow easily. Many women find their most original thoughts arise mid cycle. Others discover unique rhythms. The goal is awareness, not perfection. Number two, [00:08:00] create during ovulation intentionally. During your fertile window, carve out sacred creative time paint, write.

  Garden dance design, or even rearrange your home. This honors your body's innate desire to express and release energy outward, the same energy that releases an egg. Number three, use creativity as nervous system regulation, turn to creation instead of control. Creativity moves energy without suppression.

  It tells your body. I'm safe to feel and I'm safe to expand. Number four. Make something that represents conception, not literally, but emotionally. A collage of what you're calling in, a poem to your future child, or even cooking a nourishing meal for your body as a ritual. The subconscious mind doesn't differentiate between symbolic and physical creation.

  It registers the same energetic messages, which is I am a creator. Number five, surround yourself with people who inspire [00:09:00] flow. A woman circle in our class, a singing group or even a sound bowl class. Social creativity raises oxytocin and creates bonding. It literally is the connection chemical of both.

  Art and motherhood. Every time you engage with life creatively, you nourish the very hormones and emotional states that optimize conception. So I wanna pause here and invite a reflection. If you've been trying to conceive for a while, this journey can start to feel Clinical temperature charts timed intercourse.

  Appointments, lab results. The creative spark that wants to find you can start to dim. But creativity is the antidote to that stagnant routine. It's how we remember that fertility is not mechanical. It's miraculous. So ask yourself, where am my life? Am I suppressing my creativity? Because the moment you start creating, whether it's a small doodle or a new morning routine, you begin to move that same life force energy that governs fertility.

  And in [00:10:00] that movement healing begins. So I hope this inspired you to create something and you can start small. It doesn't have to be anything too crazy, but just a little something that brings you joy and playfulness, even singing your favorite song. You can download my Free Moon Hacking ebook. Best kept secrets to harmonizing your moon cycle.

  You can find the link in the show notes below. It's filled with tools to help you syn your body with your hormonal rhythms. And if you'd like to explore this concept further, join the Wholesome Fertility Collective, which is a beautiful community of women and coaches learning to harmonize your fertility flow and life force.

  Remember you were born to create. Your body is not broken. It's waiting for safety, expression and flow. So thank you so much for tuning in, and I will see you next time. [00:11:00] [00:12:00]

Ep 374 The Truth About PCOS: Symptoms, Fertility Struggles, and Finding Real Support

Polycystic Ovary Syndrome (PCOS) affects millions of women worldwide, yet it remains one of the most misunderstood and frequently misdiagnosed hormonal conditions. In this episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, Michelle is joined by Megan Stewart, Founder and Executive Director of the PCOS Awareness Association, to unpack why PCOS can look so different from person to person and why so many women struggle for years before receiving real answers.

Megan shares her powerful personal journey, from experiencing symptoms as young as nine years old to navigating years of medical dismissal, a PCOS diagnosis at sixteen, and later cervical cancer. Together, Michelle and Megan explore how PCOS impacts fertility, mental health, metabolism, and the nervous system, including insulin resistance, elevated testosterone, anxiety, depression, and cycle irregularity. This conversation also offers hope, highlighting supportive approaches such as acupuncture, lifestyle rhythm, nervous system regulation, and holistic care that can help restore balance and empower women to trust their bodies again.


Key Takeaways: 

• PCOS symptoms and why they vary so widely

• Misdiagnosis and common PCOS myths

• Hormones, insulin resistance, and fertility challenges

• The overlooked mental health impact of PCOS

• Acupuncture, holistic care, and nervous system support

• Building community, advocacy, and real-world resources
  

Connect with Megan Stewart:

Visit their website
Follow them on Instagram for more updates

Disclaimer: The information shared on this podcast is for educational and informational purposes only and is not intended as medical advice. Please consult with your healthcare provider before making any changes to your health or fertility care.

Ready to discover what your body needs most on your fertility journey?
Take the personalized quiz inside The Wholesome Fertility Journey and get tailored resources to meet you exactly where you are:

 https://www.michelleoravitz.com/the-wholesome-fertility-journey

For more about my work and offerings, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Curious about ancient wisdom for fertility? Grab my book The Way of Fertility:
https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

Join the Wholesome Fertility Facebook Group for free resources & community support:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Connect with me on social:
Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility
Facebook: The Wholesome Lotus

Disclaimer: Some of the links shared are affiliates but this is at no cost to you and can even get you discounted prices!

• Transcript

  [00:00:00] Episode number 3 74 of the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. Welcome back to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. I'm your host, Michelle Orbitz, and today we're talking about a condition that so many women are quietly struggling with often for years before they ever get real answers, which is PCOS. My guest is Megan Stewart, the founder and executive director of PCOS Awareness Association, one of the leading organizations dedicated to PCOS education, advocacy, and support.

  Megan's work is deeply personal. She started experiencing symptoms as young as nine years old, pelvic pain, missing cycles, weight gain, hair loss, unwanted hair growth. Mood changes and she and her mom were sent from provider to provider, dismissed, and even told that it was in her head. It wasn't until she was 16 that she finally got the PCOS diagnosis, and then [00:01:00] incredibly, she was also diagnosed with cervical cancer.

  But what happened next is why this episode is so powerful. Years later, after an ER visit where she learned her ovarian cysts were rupturing and realized how little support and practical guidance existed, Megan decided she could not be the only one going through this. She began making teal PCOS awareness, bracelets by hand sharing symptoms and resources.

  One conversation at a time. That small act of advocacy exploded into a worldwide movement and eventually became the PCOS Awareness Association. Today, she and her volunteer team are creating real resources for real symptoms, including mental health support, and they host PCOS con. Bringing community education and conversations, people have been afraid to say aloud into a safe space.

  In this conversation, we break [00:02:00] down why PCOS can be so confusing and so commonly misdiagnosed. Why the name itself can be misleading, and how PCOS can look completely different from person to person. We talk about the hormone and metabolic pieces, including insulin resistance and testosterone patterns.

  The mental health side that doesn't get enough attention and why it can impact fertility so profoundly. And we also talk about hope because there are supportive options. We explore the role of holistic care, including acupuncture. Lifestyle rhythm and nervous system support, and how creating safety in the body can be a game changer for cycle regulation and overall wellbeing.

  So if you've ever felt dismissed, confused, or like your body was doing something, no one can explain. This episode is for you.

  Welcome to the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. [00:03:00] I'm Michelle, a fertility acupuncturist here to provide you with resources on how to create a wholesome approach to your fertility journey.

  Michelle: Welcome to the podcast, Megan.

  Megan: Hi. Thank you for having me.

  Michelle: Yes. I'm so excited. Um, we just had a little fun chat pre-talk about PCOS and before we get started, 'cause I'm really excited to get to this topic because of course it feels like a mystery. it's a hard. Type of syndrome to really pin down. I think that it could be so confusing for some people.

  People get misdiagnosed often. So, before we do get started, I would love to get your origin story and how this is personal. It's personal, and it's also something that is a passion of yours. So would love to have you share that.

  Megan: Absolutely. So, yes, it's origin story, it's a passion. I am a sufferer of PCOS myself. [00:04:00] So, it really came about now I will try and keep this as, you know, as simple as possible. It really came about because when I was nine, I started showing symptoms of PCOS, and at the time we had no idea what it was.

  And if it wasn't for my mother, I probably, I don't. Like you'll learn. I don't know where I would be today if it wasn't for my mother, because she literally took me from, I just remember, you know, it's time for another appointment, Megan. It's time for another appointment. Let's go figure out what's wrong.

  And some of my symptoms that I was having were. Pelvic pain was the, the huge one. Pelvic pain? no menstrual cycle. Weight gain hair loss on my head, but hair growth on my face. And arms. I just was super moody all the time. To this day, my mother will say, you owe me. And I'm like, what do I owe you for?

  'cause you were just so mean. Oh. Oh, okay. So, yeah, was absolutely just. Confused [00:05:00] on what was going on with my body. I was confused. My mother was confused. So I just remember her taking me from, you know, doctor to doctor to also, you know, homeopathic specialist and just all over the place. Trying to figure out what was going on and she was told of various of things such as this is normal because she's young and, you know, puberty.

  This is just something that she's just going to have to do, deal with. Was also told that I just needed to lose the weight and I would be fine. But the problem was, was like, how, how does she lose the weight? Because she's super active. I am an equestrian. I did basketball, I did volleyball, I did a little soccer here and there.

  You know, I was just super active and nothing was. Keeping the weight off. I was literally like throwing on pounds if I smelled a cookie from a mile away. Right. It was just ridiculous. And then the ultimate one that she was told, that [00:06:00] she just felt completely off about was that she was told by a medical professional that it was in my head and I was.

  Faking the symptoms to get out of, to get out of school and practice and all the things. And she recently actually told me that she put me on a placebo pill just to test that theory, only for it to realize about two weeks later that no, it's not this is not in this pork child's head. This is something is wrong.

  Michelle: yeah.

  Megan: So again, from ages nine to 16, I was just, you know, trying to figure out what was going on with me. And I just remember also feeling that. I was lost because me personally, I was lost because it was like nobody is understanding me. Nobody is, is, is like really telling me what is wrong. And, and on top of that I'm gonna date myself here, but you know, I come from the time of 17 Magazine y magazine.

  Z, all those [00:07:00] different things that were like, oh, this is what you're supposed to look like. You're supposed to be cute and little. And I wasn't. So it was just like, no, I. You know, self my, my self body image was not a good one. So I finally remember, I can't remember exactly, how we ended up at another O-B-G-Y-N, and she immediately looked at me and said, I'm gonna run some tests.

  Those tests came back and she was like, oh, you've never been told you have PCOS. I kind of figured you, you have PCOS. And it was kind of like. No. Like, what, what is this? And you know, polycystic ovarian syndrome was what she said to to us. And she was like, you really nothing you have to worry about until you're ready to have children come back to me when you are trying to get pregnant.

  again, 16, I was like, Ew, I don't want nothing to do with no boys. I'm okay. I'm okay. So, but ultimately, as well. Another diagnosis came along with the [00:08:00] PCOS diagnosis is I was diagnosed at 16 with cervical cancer. So there is there are studies out there that say like there's a correlation between PCOS and cervical cancer along with Rine cancer.

  Ovarian cancer, breast cancer. there are just a lot of studies out there that correlate the, the, the mix of them together. So, of course, you know. She says, you know, come back to me when you're ready to have children. I wasn't thinking about that. And the diagnosis of cervical cancer was immediate on the mind.

  So it didn't come about until maybe about 21, 22 when I didn't have health insurance and I was working at a job. I remember just feeling so sick one day and I remember going into the office and everybody sitting at my desk and everybody looking at me and they're like. What's going on with you? Like you, I'm a black woman, so all the color had drained out of my face.

  I just felt clammy. I felt [00:09:00] like sticky just not well. And I called, called my mom again. Mommy called my mom and was like, Hey, something's up. I need to go. She was like. Meet me at the er, met her at the er and they looked through my, my, my charts and everything and they said, oh, you have PCOS. Yeah, well it kind of looks like we're gonna do some other tests, but we're gonna do an ultrasound and everything.

  Came back with that and it looks like your cysts on your ovaries are rupturing. What, like nobody said anything about, you know, this is what's gonna happen and here's how to handle that. It was literally just come back to me when you're ready to have children. So, Walking out of the er, it was very much, my mom was like, oh no, what's about to happen?

  You, I see it in your face, what's going on? And I said, no, I cannot be the only person that's going through this. I [00:10:00] cannot be the only person that's going through this. And there has to be information and resources out there. I go and you know, at the time I think it was Craigslist was pretty much the only like social media that was out there.

  And Craigslist has this part that, you know, you can talk to people.

  Michelle: You look too young to know this. I'll have to, I have to say,

  Megan: Girl, I'm 40. I'll be 42 this year,

  Michelle: you look a lot younger, just in my eyes, so.

  Megan: I appreciate it. But, but yeah, it was they have like this it's almost like Reddit. You can post like to the message board and you can respond to things in, in Craigslist. I remember going out there and I just searched PCOS. I'm from Seattle, so I searched in the, Craigslist for Seattle and there was maybe four or five people within there that was like, Hey you know, have you heard of this thing called PCOS?

  I have it, and, and I don't know what's going on with me. Does anybody have any advice? So with that. It was like, [00:11:00] okay, I'm not the only one, and people are actually out here looking for things. So what, what's out here? What's giving information? So then it was a Google search of like, what's PCOS?

  At the time there was maybe one, there was one large organization and couple years later there was another large organization out there that had to do with PCOS. But when looking at the information, it was very much just. The medical professionals didn't know. It was very much like, oh, well here's what's out there currently, but we still don't know, like we don't know.

  And then on top

  of the birth control pill.

  Oh, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Don't get me started on that one. But,

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Megan: but yes, and it was very much like there was no resources, actual resources out there for PCOS and it was confusing to me. All of the things was just very, very confusing. So, after a couple of years and people, you know, family and friends asking me very close with, you know, my [00:12:00] family.

  And after er visit, of course, everybody's now calling like, Hey, what happened? What's going on? Are you okay? And I was like, okay, well, PCOS, well what's that? Okay. So now I have to devise a way for, to, to share this information with my family and friends. So I came up with this idea of creating, I had found out the official color was teal.

  I started creating like handmade teal bracelets and handing it out to family and friends along with telling them like. PCOS, polycystic ovarian syndrome. And then here's like some symptoms. And here's this here that like, I was literally like the resource of like, here, here, here. Take this, here, take this information.

  And now if you wear this, you are now going to be able to tell people who ask you about like, what's, what's the steel bracelet you're wearing That's amazing. You were raising awareness right after like that's.

  know. So, it was around the time that Instagram started and what was it? Wonder [00:13:00] Woman, the movie Wonder Woman was coming out and she had that infamous pose of like, you know, I'm Wonder Woman type thing.

  I had a cousin who actually asked me for like. I think she had ordered maybe 20 of those handmade teal bracelets from me. And then she went on Instagram and did the Wonder Woman pose in those bracelets tagged me and hashtagged PCOS. I could not like. I think I woke up maybe two days later to my phone just being bombarded with messages on Instagram asking me, Hey, I have PCOS too.

  Where do I get a bracelet? I've never seen anything like this. What can I do? I need more information. It was just from all over the world. I had people New Zealand. It, it was just insane to me that people were reaching out and I. Didn't have, like, I was like, oh, what, what do I do now? So I literally started my own little, like assembly line of friends and family of like putting [00:14:00] these bracelets together, getting shipping addresses, mailing them out.

  And at the time I had no idea that shipping to like. India and, and New Zealand and, and Britain and all those places was actually going to cost me more

  Michelle: The than, than the actual, you know, putting the things together. It was insane. But I came up with this idea of like, okay, I'll sell this to you for like $5 and if you send me the $5 and I send you the bracelet, I'm gonna use the $5 to get a 5 0 1 C3.

  Megan: To start PCOS Awareness Association and here we are what the right, like what, 14 years later. And I am so proud of my team and where we started to where we are today and all the different resources and that's the number one thing that we try and do. It's not just about the information. I literally have sat down with the team and we're like, oh, okay.

  A symptom is mental [00:15:00] health, right? It's depression and anxiety. So where can we help in that area? What kind of resources can we provide to help in that area? We've teamed up with Crisis Text Line. You text PCOS to 7 7 4 1 7 4 1, and you now have a resource, for, you know, your mental health with PCOS the hair growth on the face, the hrsm which is hair growth on the face. And some people also have it back, chest, you know, all over their body. The extra hair growth. We've teamed up with Milan, laser hair removal to offer their services. We've, we've just, for every symptom we have tried to provide an actual resource, whether it's, you know, one resource that we've teamed up with, or a slew of resources that we've also teamed up with.

  Um, so. Yeah, I'm pretty excited and I'm pretty I'm proud of the team.

  Michelle: I bet, I mean, that's a, that's a huge undertaking and it's a huge it, it has such a huge impact on so many people. It's a great resource because [00:16:00] I feel like so many, specifically with PCOS, so many people are so confused. There's a lot of misdiagnosed people. with very. Doctors like that are professional and and so it, it could be a very confusing type of syndrome because it looks so different on every person.

  So, to break that down, I'd love to talk about that really like, to describe to people listening who you know, of course this is a fertility podcast, but it really impacts fertility health because it impacts the menstrual cycle. And we talked about this in the pre-chat. I think that I had undiagnosed PCOS, I had my hair fell out.

  Thank god it grew back, but it really fell out to the point where it was really, it scared me.

  It scared my dad and they was like, oh, what's going on? Like, you used to have a full head of hair and, and all of a sudden it started thinning on the top. I had chin hairs. I had like bouts of acne at different [00:17:00] times.

  It, it came and went irregular cycles. So, I mean, looking back. My circadian rhythm was off. That's another thing that since I've been doing this, learning about how it not only impacts your menstrual cycle, it impacts your ability to lose weight. It's very hard to like get it off. But sometimes people could be on the thinner side too, so that's where it could be so confusing.

  And then also, you know, it impacts depression. Like I used to have depression in, my teenage years. And, and when you were talking about how you felt or the moodiness, it's almost like, I mean. It's not your fault, it's like a physical thing that you're going through, and you could be looked at like, why are you like that?

  But that's something that you're, you are just not feeling right in your body, in your mind. So I'd love for you as, as you know, as much as you can kind of compact it. And describe to people what is PCOS and [00:18:00] how it can impact or ref, I guess, express itself in different people.

  Megan: Yeah, absolutely. 100% of everything you said. And yes, this is a fertility podcast and that's. Why I'm here,

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Megan: because PCOS is the number one cause of fertility, infertility in women. You know, so normally that's normally how women are diagnosed with PCOS when they are trying to get pregnant and they're having problems.

  You can go to a, you know, your medical professional ob, GYN, endocrinologists. I've even heard of people who are going to like dermatologists. 'cause as you said, the acne portion. I've even heard of mental health therapists that they're not diagnosing, but they're suggesting that. Some, some something's up here, you may wanna see somebody.

  So ultimately, you know, you, you're having troubles getting pregnant and they're running panels and they're realizing like you have PCOS. So some of the symptoms and the crazy thing about [00:19:00] PCOS is because it's a syndrome, is that they are literally finding new. New symptoms all the time. There was one that recently came up, well, not recently, it's been a couple of years now, but it made perfect sense to me because I, at the time was struggling with it.

  And that's tooth decay. I,

  Michelle: Hmm.

  Megan: let me tell you, I am, you know, twice, twice a year dentist brush, you know, all the things, do all the things I need to do to make sure I'm taking care of my, my mouth health. And it's felt like. Within a month. I was like at the dentist like 12 times. It was nuts. They were like, oh, you know, you have, we're gonna have to do a crown.

  We're gonna have to do a root canal. It was

  Michelle: And all of that impacts fertility as well, kind of even on its own.

  Megan: right. Yeah. So it was. Right. So yes, they are definitely finding new symptoms all the time, but some of the symptoms, other symptoms of definitely infertility, [00:20:00] weight gain, hair growth on your face, so let's, let's put it this way instead. PCOS also causes higher testosterone in women that have PCOS.

  So if you're thinking about higher testosterone and you're thinking about men, they're going to get hair growth on face, neck, back, you know, arms, all the things, but then they start losing it on their head. Male pattern

  Michelle: where we want it.

  Megan: Right. Well, exactly. Our crowns, we, we want it there. So, think of it the same way for women with PCOS.

  You are going to get hair growth on the face and neck, chest, back, arms, all the places you don't want it, and then you're gonna lose it on your head. So herm, that's the hair growth is a symptom. Depression, anxiety. I can't even tell you how, like my watch, I have a, what is this? The Garmin watch.

  And I kid you not every day, it's like, oh, stressful period. Stressful period. And I'm like, stop telling me. That's even more stressful. Like [00:21:00] my, my anxiety level can go from zero to a hundred. My poor boyfriend, like, I feel bad for him because I literally, he can tell, I'll, I'll sit there and I'll be quiet and he's like, what's going on?

  What's happening? And I'm like. I wish you couldn't tell this in me, but, but yes. Anxiety is high depression, and I feel like that's also a vicious cycle, right? You get high anxiety, you get depressed, you get depressed, you get high anxiety. You are just going in a vicious circle. The acne. I can't even tell you how many times as an adult, I'm like, where did this patch of acne come from?

  Like, why, why is this even happening? I, I also have a lot of women have cystic acne because of their PCOS. Tooth decay is another one. We have what's called, and, and that also comes with the insulin resistance, right? And that's kind of like where the weight gain comes from as well. And that is the reason why they also give women with PCOS Metformin, which is a diabetic medication.

  [00:22:00] I hate that. I hate it. I'm like, I do not have diabetes.

  Michelle: Tel Works very similar to that, and it's more natural and it also has added benefit of improving equality.

  Megan: absolutely my own acetol. What's another progesterone? They try and give you birth control pills? I've definitely noticed that in the last maybe 20 years. It's like, as soon as you turn 15, 16, here, take these birth control pills, they'll make your life better. No.

  Michelle: I was giving them too. Same.

  Megan: Right. Right. I feel like that's, that's, that's like the norm now.

  What are some other symptoms? So, I do wanna preface that. The name polycystic ovarian syndrome is deceiving. And I have, you know, there is chatter that they are trying to change the name. Because you can have cysts on your ovaries or like me, at any given time, your cyst could be ruptured and not there.

  So,

  Michelle: And it's not really cysts, it's follicles, which could be confusing [00:23:00] 'cause people are gonna think it's a bunch of cysts. But it's actually follicles that are not fully grown. So multiple ones will go and then they'll stop, and then it's just gonna continue. And, but nothing's really, so people go through IVF and they'll have so many eggs retrieved and they're like, oh wow.

  40 eggs. And, and then nothing. Nothing. Nothing turns into an embryo or like very, very few, if any.

  Megan: Right. Absolutely. So it's, I, I like to think or say, or it is that PCOS is an endocrine hormonal disorder, right? It's, it's going to affect you from head to toe, literally from head to toe.

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Megan: So, thinking about it that way, your symptoms. Let's say you, you had, you were formally diagnosed with PCOS.

  Your PCOS is going to look very different from my PCOS, and that's why it's such a struggle for medical professionals for us living with PCOS. I did a podcast recently [00:24:00] and the gal had asked me like, what do I want to see like in the future for PCOS? That, that is one of the things I wanna see. I want to see that people are correctly diagnosed, whether it's people being diagnosed and they actually have PCOS or we're also getting the other, the reverse, right?

  We're getting people that are being diagnosed with PCOS and it's not PCOS. So I want to see that correction because that's not helpful. That's not helpful for those that, you know, for anybody in that, that aspect.

  Michelle: No, a hundred percent. And it's yeah, that's one of the biggest things that is so confusing for so many people. And people may not realize, they think, oh, well I have a regular period. I can't possibly have PCOS. And that's another big myth. I mean, there's so many myths connected to this diagnosis.

  Megan: absolutely. 100%. And it's, it's a struggle because PCOS can also look like what's it, [00:25:00] Hashimoto's? Fatty liver diabetes I've heard there's a couple of others that I've heard as well that it can mimic. So yeah, getting that proper diagnosis is going to help in the future, right?

  Like if I get the proper diagnosis, that means now we have, we can have a path going forward.

  Michelle: Yes, a hundred percent. And and have you heard about the circadian rhythm connection with

  Megan: I have, I have. So, I, I myself have not got dived into that. But I have heard it. We had a partner was it last year? I think it was last year during our PCOS con event. That, that, yes, they definitely spoke about that.

  Michelle: Mm-hmm. Yeah, it's pretty wild because with Chinese medicine, how we, we perceive it, and we were talking about this too, about acupuncture. One of the things about PCOS, I'm just gonna kind of throw it out there 'cause it sounds so like, oh my gosh, like, what do I do? But there are a lot of really amazing things that can be [00:26:00] done.

  For me personally, and you talked about this too, acupuncture was what really shifted for me. Now, I'm assuming I did have it, but looking back, I had two out of three that I know for sure. I didn't do the ultrasound, so I probably did have it. And I had irregular periods for going on 12 years at the time,

  Megan: Yeah.

  Michelle: and acupuncture was the one with.

  Solution that literally shifted everything for me, acupuncture and herbs. And I also started meditating, so I feel like a lot of those things really impacted it. I wanna throw that out there because.

  Megan: Absolutely.

  Michelle: seems it could be very depressing, just like being like, oh my God, what do I do? You know, what can I do?

  But there are things that you can do, and it is actually something that I found. Now, of course, every person's different, so I'm gonna kind of mention that. So not everybody's gonna respond to the same things, the same, but diet, exercise, supplements, acupuncture. There are a lot of things [00:27:00] that can be done.

  That can be very, very supportive. And I know for myself doing the acupuncture, like I, it completely regulated me and I, it was no turning back, like completely, completely regulated me. And I also felt a shift in my emotions and my anxiety and my, you know, I'll have a tendency if I'm really drained and a lot going on. That's probably kind of my default.

  Um, it'll kind of go right there, but I You could learn to manage it.

  Megan: Absolutely, absolutely. As we were kind of chatting before, same it was about 10 years ago, I did, I found a woman's health acupuncturist and I went to her for maybe, maybe six months. And the way that my, I, I have really never had a normal cycle, right? I actually, when I was diagnosed with PCOS, I still hadn't had my first.

  Cycle. So they had put me on progesterone and I had, my very first cycle lasted three months. It [00:28:00] was nuts

  Michelle: no.

  Megan: was heavy every day. It was horrible. And so, after that I still wasn't even, even on birth control pills. They had put me on birth control pills. And even then, I still was not regular. I could go maybe a month, have it two months, nothing a month have it.

  It was just, it was nuts. So, I had cervical cancer again, and after that I was like, I'm al I'm always having like these revelations, right? And it's like, no, I am not doing. Medications anymore. I'm not doing it. Like it's not helping, so I'm gonna try something else. And I went completely natural, found a woman's health acupuncturist.

  I did get you know, she, she mixed herbs and stuff for me as well to drink in hot water and that kind of things. But it was the acupuncture that I could really stick to. And again, I went for about six months and since then. I like, like clockwork. I could tell you exact the exact date when my cycle [00:29:00] is supposed to start.

  And it starts by itself. I came off of birth control pills. It does, it does what it needs to do now.

  Michelle: Yeah. Yeah. Isn't it amazing? And it I I kind of liken it, like I, I like to compare it to almost and this is kind of like the whole idea of the clock we were talking about, the circadian rhythm. It's a pulse. It's one of our pulses now. We have many different pulses. All of life has pulse.

  Everything kind of goes back and forth. We have waves. That's how the whole universe functions. It has cycles, and so there are some smaller cycles, some larger cycles. The 24 hour cycle is our circadian cycle, so if the hand of the second, the second hand doesn't work, it's gonna impact the hour hand.

  Megan: Okay. Yep,

  Michelle: So it's kind of like everything impacts everything.

  So that's where it really made sense to me that for me personally, my circadian rhythm was off. Not everybody, but like some people, they have that correlation [00:30:00] and mine was completely, completely off. I could not wake up, like it was very hard for me to wake up. I had to for school, but I could sleep till two, three

  Megan: Oh, oh, yeah. Yeah, that's me. I could

  Michelle: yeah,

  Megan: day. Anywhere. Anywhere. Like I could probably pull up on this table and just.

  Michelle: Yeah. But now luckily I've shifted that over time. It just kind of forced myself to shift it and one of the ways to shift it. And it takes a little time, especially if you've been like that for a very long time. It took me years to shift it. I still am not like a super morning person like. So I'm just gonna kind of throw that out there. But the sun, the light, light impacts us. So getting that early morning sun anchoring our body, pretty much what it does is it gives our body a message, Hey, it's morning. It's daytime, you should be awake. So getting that sunlight, having your eyes perceive the sun, not look directly, but to get that sunlight wakes up your body.

  [00:31:00] And then similarly, at night, dimming the lights a couple of hours before, kind of like really trying to make your inner house environment similar to outside what's outside, which is darkness. At certain times. So going with that, also eating with a cycle, not like, intermittent fasting where you're like stopping in the, like not having breakfast 'cause that's gonna cause more cortisol.

  But finishing notorious,

  as the sun goes down, like having a couple, a good couple of hours. So fasting at night and going with that rhythm. So this is all kind of like. Based on Ayurvedic principles, Chinese medicine, really honoring the cycles of nature because the cycles of nature will, they're so strong, the force is so strong, it'll kind of bring our bodies back into that regulation.

  So it's kind of a regulatory thing. It's kind of like a rhythm thing too. I mean, there's many other things obviously that impact it, but a big part of it is kind of like our bodies and training with [00:32:00] the rhythm of nature. So it's kind of like, like a train on tracks. It just veered off the tracks. We need to kind of bring it back.

  And so that was kind of what happened with me, and it was as soon as I got the acupuncture and I started to do a couple of other things, it brought me back on track. And then it was kind of like, it just kept repeating. Similar to what you were saying.

  Megan: nice. And I know that you said you do, you do meditation as well. I got a question for you on that

  Michelle: of course.

  Megan: because I, you know, it's hard, it is hard to meditate because you brain is like, go on a 20 million miles per hour. What I found myself when I was getting into meditation and whatnot is a singing bowl.

  you use singing

  Michelle: Oh yeah, so I used that actually in the beginning of every session with my acupuncture. Like every time I get the needles in with my patients. I put I put a bowl. Like I, I sound a bowl and I put it around their bodies so that they can get immersed in the sound. And not only [00:33:00] that, they have a bunch of antennas in their bodies with these like metal, like

  Megan: right. You

  get the little, the little zappy

  Michelle: into their points.

  So, so that vibration really goes directly into those

  Megan: Right. I like it.

  Okay. Okay. I was writing it then because

  Michelle: But it is, yes. You're on to something. The sound really calms your nervous system. And as a matter of fact we have our own sound, which is our voice, and this is why humming activates the vagus nerve, which puts us in a more rest and digest state, which people with PCOS need more of that.

  It helps also with digestion. There's a link with gut health and PCOS and so, so, humming. Mantras, you know, all the things that the ancients knew for thousands of years. They used to hum. They used to m and there's specific seed mantras that you can sound in your, in your, you know, in your voice with your mouth closed sometimes or [00:34:00] humming like so That vibration that you feel impacts your vagus nerve, shifts your nervous system from a survival to a more creative.

  Megan: that makes so much sense. That makes so much sense to me. Now I'm So, so tell me, tell me about the Sound Bowl.

  Yeah. Yeah. No, no. I, I got a big one

  Michelle: That's awesome.

  Megan: and Right. I often feel in my chest the most. And yes, like you're saying that it makes perfect sense about the humming because if I don't use, like, if I'm nowhere near the bowl I will.

  Find a rhythm within myself, like a, a tune within myself and I will sing it or hum it to myself. So that makes perfect

  Michelle: Intuitively. See,

  look at that. Without even realizing that that's what I'm doing. So that makes so much sense. Thank you for that insight.

  Yeah. Yeah. No, I mean, first of all, I, it's just a reflection that [00:35:00] you are more intuitive than you realized,

  Megan: Great.

  Michelle: you know? And I think that that's what it is. I think that a big part of this whole thing is, is to trust ourselves. And I think we put and I'm sure you can relate to this, and I'm sure you see this a lot.

  We put so much of our. Trust outside of us, especially when we're going through this, which can sometimes, especially if like the medical community doesn't really understand it and they, they say they don't really understand it. And we're putting all our trust in in that. And part of how we're made up is that we have this in innate intelligence within our bodies that communicates with

  Megan: Yeah. Oh yeah. To protect yourself. So yes, that's the number one thing that I definitely tell people is that you need to trust those feelings. If you're feeling like you are not being heard by your medical profession, professional, go get another one.

  Michelle: absolutely.

  Megan: get another one.

  Michelle: Yeah, and it's a game changer.

  It could change [00:36:00] everything.

  Megan: Yeah. Again, if my mother had not trusted herself in knowing. Me. I don't know where I would be today. Like, I

  Michelle: I love your mom. Like everything that you're telling me, she sounds like such an amazing mother.

  Megan: She is, she is. And in that so she was recently diagnosed with Alzheimer's or dementia, and she actually is, she looks at me and she says, oh, well, you know, you were, you're such a voice for the PCOS community. I now want to donate myself. As in like, I want to be a part of Alzheimer's or dementia studies.

  Because I feel like you, you did that and now I need to do it. So she has definitely, yeah. She's, she's so

  Michelle: so you've inspired her. Look at that. That's incredible.

  Megan: right. We, we played off of each other, so she helped me. Now it's time for me to help her.

  Michelle: Aw, that's so sweet. And you know, I'm really hoping, Megan, that for both PCOS and you know, Alzheimer's dementia, that [00:37:00] we're gonna move in a direction that's more innovative and. I really am. And I feel like, I think people are really kind of going back to the basics and learning a lot now, and the information that we never really used to have, like the podcast and is coming out, there's a lot of information on really coming back to the basics.

  Nutrition, certain supplements, certain medications. So I feel like we're kind of in a place, I think collectively that we are moving to more solutions than Yeah, I, I feel it too. And when I like was first starting with P-C-O-S-A-A, like, it drove me nuts when every time I would go look for, labs and everything that are studying PCOS. The main thing that they were studying was like the weight loss and the fertility portion. And I'm like, how can you study that without even knowing what it is?

  Megan: Like nobody knows what it is

  and where it came

  Michelle: [00:38:00] body, like specific constitution. 'cause not every Constitution would do well with that.

  Megan: Correct. So I actually ended up finding one lab in the US that is studying like the origins of, and what is PCOS. And we've partnered with them and it's Lugen Labs out of Cornell University. Dr. Lugen is absolutely amazing and so her studies, I can't

  remember

  Michelle: get her on the podcast.

  Megan: Yeah, you should. She's absolutely ama amazing. I love her. Doc, she, she literally, I can't remember when she first started like her studies, but they are now. At the point of where it's providing information. 'cause you know, when you start a study, you, you need like five years,

  Michelle: Yep. To collect data. It was just data

  Megan: data. Right. So she's now at the point where she is getting, getting the data and getting the results and compounding it into actual viable resources and

  Michelle: that's incredible.

  Megan: [00:39:00] Yeah, I can definitely connect you with

  Michelle: Yeah, that would be great. 'cause I think that so many people would benefit from getting that information.

  Megan: Yeah, she she, she has, you know, resource assistance out of the college that sometimes attend our PCOS CON event, our yearly annual PCOS con event, and they give report outs. During that event, the last time we heard from her a report out was not 2025, but 2024. So I'm sure she's got more, more to share.

  She normally does a, a tag up a quarterly tag up meeting with my board to let them know of any findings that she's, they've found or, or how they can help support the PCOS community and what we can do. You know, it's a, it's a it's a, it know, a partnership.

  Michelle: I, I just love what you're doing. I just think that what you're doing is so powerful. Like it's crazy how, you know, people go through things all the time, but what makes a person like realize or act upon that problem that [00:40:00] many people are facing and saying, Hey, you know, people need to know more about this, and kind of the choice that you made.

  To create this incredible community and resource for so many people. I think that's a big deal. Like not everybody would act on doing something like that. And then in turn, you're not only influencing so many people, you've influenced your mom. It's incredible.

  Megan: Thank you. I appreciate that. Because it's, it's rough.

  Michelle: I'm sure

  Megan: It could be, it could, yeah. It's a lot of work. I you know, the nonprofit, we are all, when I talk about the board and everybody on it, we're all volunteers, including myself. None of us are taking any paychecks or anything like that. We all have day jobs.

  We all have lives that we lead outside of it. And I think that's the number one thing that I hope that people like when, when they are looking at starting things, please, please do, but at the same time do know [00:41:00] it is hard work and that you really do have to need to have a passion for it. And I. Strongly feel for personal.

  My personal, like this is my legacy. This is what I was put on this earth to do,

  Michelle: That's amazing. It, it's incredible because I feel like you know, with all that work, you are moving the needle.

  Megan: thank you.

  Michelle: Just people listening right now to realize, oh, there's something that can be done. There's resources, and I can find out more information. I think just kind of demystifying that, just the demystification aspect without even the resources is huge.

  Megan: Thank you. I appreciate that.

  Michelle: Yeah, I think it's amazing. So for people listening, if they wanna learn more and they want to like maybe go to your events eventually, or you

  know, Yeah, How can they find you? Where do they start?

  Megan: Yeah. So we do have a website and it's www.pcosaa.org. We have a website [00:42:00] separate from that, that is our, for our PCOS con. So, in 2019, I brought, I know my board hates me sometimes because sometimes I'll, like, I wake up in the middle of the night and I'm like, Ooh.

  Michelle: That's a download. That's what that is. That's the PCOS. Angels talking to you. Be like we need you for something else.

  Megan: Right. So in 2019, I, I went to the beginning of 2019. I went to the board and I was like, so I wanna put on something called the PCOS con and I wanna do it this year.

  Michelle: Wow.

  Megan: were like, you're nuts. But we did it. We put on PCOS con and it was supposed to be every year, but then of course 2020, our lovely pandemic hit and we had to you know, we had to. Go a different direction. We went virtual, so in 20 20, 20 21, and then 2022 we were virtual. So we have decided going forward, we are even years, we are virtual, odd years we are in person. So in 2025 we [00:43:00] did New York we did New York and LA in 2025. And in 2023 we did New York. LA and Texas. So we are, we're trying to like, you know, travel and bring it to people and make sure that we are, you know, get, getting all sorts of people to be able to come into the actual event.

  So for PCs Con, we do have a separate website for that, and it's just PCs con.org that you can find that we are on all social media, including, let's see, Facebook. TikTok Instagram, Pinterest, LinkedIn. Somebody was telling me that I need to do Reddit, but I really don't even know.

  Michelle: I know there's so

  Megan: Look, look people old,

  Michelle: I know day something new comes up and I'm like, what? What is

  Megan: right?

  Michelle: And then I have to learn this new thing.

  Megan: No, I, the team does it. Like they, they all said, oh, we need TikTok. And I was like, I sure hope you guys don't think that I'm gonna be on TikTok doing these little dances and, and out here. 'cause [00:44:00] I, 'cause I'm not

  Michelle: yeah,

  Megan: like, I'm even, I'll be very honest with you. I hate being on video. So, which is, which goes back to kind of like what you were saying is, you know, even our own voices, bring, bring kind of a balance. I, I, I don't, I mm-hmm. I don't like being on video because I do not like listening to myself after the fact. So that was an interesting pull from what you said as well. So,

  Michelle: No, but if you, if you have the voice just without hearing yourself back,

  Megan: Right, right. If it's internal, it's my internal voice. It's we had a call last night and they were talking about naming, naming your PCOS, and I was like. Is this something that I can ask chat, GBT to name for me? Like I can put a name to my own PCOS and so then that, that'll be the voice that I hear within my head is that name.

  Michelle: That's awesome.

  Megan: But, but yeah, so you can find us on all, all the different social media. We would absolutely love to have, you know, your listeners be a part during PCOS con. One of the [00:45:00] things we like to do is we like to have different. Sections, different topics that we talk about. Fertility is definitely a topic that we talk about.

  One of the other larger things that can go along with fertility right, is the taboo topics. So we have a section of PCOS con where the first year we did it, we literally came down from, it was at a hotel, so we all came down in our PJ's and we had like, beanbag chairs, popcorn in the middle of the night.

  And we discussed those taboo topics. That have to do with PCOS, sex, fertility just those things that people don't, don't feel comfortable, you know, voicing out loud. We made a very comfortable space to be able to talk about that, those types of things.

  Michelle: Amazing. Well, Megan, it was such a pleasure meeting you. I think what you're doing is incredible and and say hi to your mom for me

  Megan: I will.

  Michelle: because she's, she sounds amazing. She sounds like a gift. And really wishing you and her and your organization the best.

  Megan: Thank you so much. Thank you for [00:46:00] having me.