EP 329 Enhancing Fertility Naturally: Yoga, Breathwork, and Mindfulness

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I welcome Kerry Hinds @fertilebodyyoga, founder of Fertile Body Yoga, who shares her inspiring fertility journey and how yoga became an essential part of her path to motherhood. Kerry opens up about her struggles with infertility, navigating IVF abroad, and ultimately conceiving naturally after stepping away from treatments. She also discusses the benefits of fertility yoga for calming the nervous system, enhancing blood flow, and creating a supportive environment for conception.

In this episode, you’ll learn how yoga can help balance your nervous system, why feeling safe is essential for fertility, and practical ways to integrate fertility yoga into your daily routine. This heartfelt conversation is filled with wisdom, hope, and practical tips for anyone on their fertility journey.

Guest Bio:

Kerry Hinds @fertilebodyyoga is a certified E-RYT, RPYT, Relax and Renew® teacher, fertility yoga instructor, and Reiki practitioner. She founded Fertile Body Yoga to support individuals on their fertility journeys. Drawing from her personal experiences with fertility challenges, including undergoing treatments and experiencing pregnancy loss, Kerry offers compassionate guidance to her students. She leads weekly fertility yoga classes and provides various mind-body support programs through the Fertile Body Yoga Virtual Studio. Kerry is also the host of the "Fringe Fertility" podcast, where she explores holistic and alternative approaches to enhancing fertility.

Websites/Social Media Links:

Learn more about Kerry Hinds
Follow Kerry Hinds on Instagram
Listen to her podcast: The Fringe Fertility

For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Check out Michelle’s Latest Book: The Way of Fertility!

https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

• Transcript

  # TWF: Kerry Hinds

  [00:00:00] Episode number 329 of the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. My guest today is Carrie Hines. Carrie is the owner and founder of Fertile Body Yoga, a virtual yoga studio that is dedicated to supporting women navigating their fertility journey. She offers both live stream and on demand fertility yoga classes.

  and small group programs that embrace the complete journey physically, mentally, emotionally, energetically, spiritually, and socially. Carrie has been teaching yoga for over 20 years and has been specializing, teaching, and training almost solely fertility yoga for eight years. Her classes and offerings are informed by her own experiences with pregnancy loss, years of IVF, and eventually completing her family with two children.

  Carrie has supported thousands of women on their fertility journey so far and is on a mission to help women conceive and birth with yoga and community. Carrie also [00:01:00] hosts Fringe Fertility, a podcast that highlights supportive fertility practices beyond the doctor's office.

  Michelle: Welcome to the podcast. Carrie. I'm so happy to have you.

  Kerry: Thanks for having me, Michelle. I'm so happy to be here and spend some time with you today.

  Michelle: Yes. I would love for you to share your story first of all I love fertility yoga. I always suggest for my patients and my clients to do it It's something that I've personally myself have been really transformed by yoga in general. Many different types of yoga, a huge believer in it. And I also think that it's a, I call it an intelligent exercise.

  It's something that's been around for thousands of years and [00:02:00] really is a medicine in its own. So I would love for you to share your story and how you personally went through your own journey, but also how you combine fertility with yoga.

  Kerry: Okay. Yeah. I'll try and be a little bit concise cause I could go on and on for the, for a long time about this topic. But you know, as many listeners out there, you know, I didn't really start thinking about having kids till I was in my mid thirties. I took me a while to find the person I wanted to share my DNA with.

  Right. So when I did, we got married we moved to Germany and We went to Germany with the intention of this would be a good time for me to have kids. He's going to do his PhD. Germany has so many great social supports for families and so on. So we're like, Oh, it's just skim the cream off the top of that social system.

  And so when we got there, as often [00:03:00] happens, things don't go as planned when it comes to fertility. So we rolled into IUI. So we tried for six months, we found a clinic and. You know, we lived in old Eastern Germany, so it was hard to find English speaking doctors. So it was a very interesting time of my life.

  Not only was it just stressful in general dealing with what's going on and is this ever going to happen to living in another culture, another country? I didn't have a ton of support around, but then trying to navigate a new language that I was not fluent in. at all. So, I, you know, had one amazing friend there who spoke fluent, fluent German, American woman.

  And she's like,I will help you. And she went into those appointments with me,

  Michelle: oh

  Kerry: did all the

  Michelle: What a great friend

  Kerry: I know, I know. It was so amazing because I was so [00:04:00] lost at that time trying to figure out, like, just what's going on, but then how to say it in a different language or understand it in a different language.

  So for anybody who's doing this,

  fertility journey overseas or is here in North America It's not your mother tongue English, and you're trying to figure it out, I see you, I understand how this can add an extra level of stress to it. So we. You know, during that time, I actually went and did a yoga teacher training cause I was like, this isn't working. I want to do something for myself. So let's go get a yoga teacher training.

  I'd actually been teaching yoga for years before this was, so I've been teaching yoga for 20 years far before, This, you know, all these 200 hour yoga teacher trainings that, you know, you can sign up for one. No problem now. But back then it was your teacher [00:05:00] tapped you on the shoulder and said, Hey, do you want to be like, let's do this.

  And so that's kind of how I started yoga. But then when I was in Germany, I was like, okay, I need to, let's make this legit, right? Let's go get the training. I love it. I was teaching in Germany and so on. So that was sort of the, the main integration of the yoga into the fertility journey was just taking that bigger step to get the certification.

  And then, yeah, we went, we did IUIs. The first IUI was successful in that I got pregnant and, you know, 10 week ultrasound, there was no heartbeat. So we lost that baby. Yeah, and it was again, different culture, different bedside manners, different, it was just so stark. That's the word I could use for it.

  Shocking. It was just like, okay. The baby has no heartbeat. We're booking you in tomorrow for a DNC. Be there at 6 a. m. [00:06:00] You know, there was no time to, to, to absorb what was, to breathe, to figure out what I wanted. it was just like this snowball that was just like, okay, this has happened. You're going to do this.

  You're going to be better than you're going to start again. And you're going to keep trying and trying. So that's a whole other rabbit hole we could go down. But yeah, it was, it was a lot. It was a lot. And so we ended up going to do IVF, and this was, you know, 15 years ago. So things were maybe a little different than they are now.

  LikeICSI was just sort of a, more of a thing, right? It's Ooh, we're going to do this new cool thing. ICSI. I was like, okay. And they're like, and then there's embryo glue and we'll glue your embryo to your uterus. And it was all cutting edge at this time. And We did it. We did many cycles frozen cycles fresh cycles.

  Yeah, so many cycles and [00:07:00] nothing stuck, right? We had been doing IVF for two years and we kind of just paused and said, Is this, do we want to keep doing this?is this how we envision our life to be? And we wanted kids for sure, but we also wanted to start living our lives again. So that was a very pivotal moment in our journey is when we stepped away from IVF.

  We said, okay, we're done. I had gained weight. I wasn't feeling like myself. My body was weirdly puffy in different places and just, I was unhappy and I was emotional and I was just like, let's. Let's, let's walk away. And I remember my fertility doctor at the time, he said, you know, your chances of getting pregnant naturally are like one in a hundred million.

  Like you shouldn't be walking away from IVF. And I was like, you know, I'm okay. Like [00:08:00] I just, I need a break. And I walked away and a month and a half later I was pregnant.

  Michelle: Wow

  Kerry: intervention. And then nine months postpartum, I also was pregnant again by accident because we thought we had our miracle baby, right?

  So we were like, okay, whatever. And then I was pregnant again and through the whole journey, I was using yoga for my body, but more so for my energetic health, my mental, emotional health. So when we ended up coming back to the U S and moving to Boston, that was one of the first things I did. I did a prenatal yoga teacher training and I said, Hey, can we do fertility yoga?

  And she's like,I don't, I'm sure. I have no idea what it is. Tell me what it is. I'm like, either do I, but I'll get back to you. And that's sort of how the fertility yoga started. And [00:09:00] nobody was really doing it eight years ago. It was,

  Michelle: It's true

  Kerry: Like, there was nothing. There was a few people, there was a couple books out on it but I really spent a lot of time explaining.

  what it was that we were trying to do when we were doing like a fertility focused yoga practice. So that's kind of the story. That's the evolution.

  Michelle: Well, I love the story. I don't love that you went through the suffering through the story But I love the fact that you can it Prove with your story that when people tell you when you hear from doctors that you have one in a million chance or whatever that is, that is not necessarily the truth.

  That is their opinion. They say it very factually, and I think that that's where it gets very confusing for people. They say it very factually, and I'm not dismissing what doctors say because a lot of times it could be very accurate or they can, but I, I, what I don't love is Is when things are predicted because the body can be [00:10:00] so unpredictable.

  And it can also show so many signs that defy what it's going to do. So that's where, you know, I say just have an open mind or getting a second opinion is great. So, but I do love hearing those stories because I think when people who are going through that now and are probably listening to fertility podcasts because they want to get.

  Answers and hear other people's stories and when they hear stories like that it sparks some hope in their hearts So I think that that's really important

  Kerry: Yeah, I often get Students they'll ask me well what was it like right because this is what we want This is people don't want to do IVF if they don't have to and they're like, what was it? what happened and I was like, I cannot tell you I can't tell you a hundred percent that it was the yoga that I was doing or you know All the other lifestyle changes I was doing but something came [00:11:00] together You magically all together at the right time and this baby happened and if I had to choose one word for it, it would be exhale because there was this feeling that my body was no longer having to perform like it felt safe because I wasn't

  going in for you know, all these procedures and like they're.

  You know, minimally invasive, but you're still like vaginal ultrasounds and people poking around down there and all the operations that come with it. Anesthesia, all those sorts of things. And yeah, it's, it's a lot. So my body was like, whew, thank you. Thank you. Let me just be. And I think the mental piece was just like that.

  I wasn't going to go back to it. At least anytime soon. So my, my body was actually believing [00:12:00] me, right? And I don't think it's It's something that you can fake. It's not a time, like I had to go through those two years of IVF and pregnancy loss to get to that point. I don't think that there's we can't just kind of skip over it and be like, Oh, I'm just going to think this now and I'm going to get pregnant naturally.

  So it's a process. That's it. you know, everybody's journey is different and we just need to give ourselves a little bit of space sometimes to integrate what's going on and give our bodies that exhale, which is so important. Mm.

  Michelle: I love that you say that because actually exhaling longer can simulate your, parasympathetic nervous system, which is the rest and digest mode, which many times the majority of us in response to life are in the fight or flight mode. And especially when we feel unsafe.

  And I love that you use the word safe because when we feel unsafe, Then [00:13:00] we're really not in a creative mode. We don't create even like mentally when we're not feeling safe.

  Kerry: Yeah.

  Michelle: When we feel safe, we're able to create, we're able to let go and our body's able to create, and that's a, it's a state of growth. So I love that you talk about that.

  And I think that one of the commonalities between yoga and acupuncture, which actually they're related in

  many ways. And because it's really about moving the energy because yoga is connected to Ayurveda. Ayurveda has Marma points and yoga is actually a branch of Ayurveda. it's part of the medicine of the physicality of the body and moving the energy.

  Kerry: Yep.

  Michelle: Qigong is sort of the yoga of Chinese medicine. So it's very related. And I think one of the biggest commonalities or one of the ways I think it really works is it's all about the nervous system.

  Kerry: 100 percent it, the nervous system. Like when I, [00:14:00] even these days I, when I'm talking to somebody, I'm like, I'm talking to a person. Yes. But I'm interacting with a nervous system. So with the words that I'm saying my body language or how I look at them, right? Like it, it all is interacting with third nervous system.

  So how are we working with nervous systems? And when we show up, in fertility world supporting people. For me, the huge part of fertility yoga is how do we harness this parasympathetic, I call it rest, digest and reproduce. That's what I call it, just

  Michelle: Yeah. I love that. Yes.

  Kerry: Because what it is, it

  Michelle: Yup.

  Kerry: It's what yoga is so good at, sadly, right? Like our Western culture view of yoga has been a little focused almost exclusively on exercise and gymnastic style yoga. But [00:15:00] really traditionally, like you said, it was about the marma. It was about the energetic lines running through you and wherever you find that imbalance, you can work with the energetic field to create balance again.

  And as you know, the Marma points and acupuncture and pressure points are like following very similar lines and it's powerful. But it's subtle, right?

  Michelle: Right. it's

  Kerry: explain. Yeah, like it's hard to explain exactly what's happening but it is, it's so powerful and it can really be transformative for how we, how we navigate the journey as embracing that, the quiet side, the quiet side of things.

  Michelle: Yes. And I think that the way we connect with it is through feeling. Right. Because that is ultimately how we do it, but we can't feel or pay attention to what we're feeling when we're distracted all the time by the noise of the world. So we're constantly disrupted by the [00:16:00] noise. It's very disrupting actually for our nervous system.

  We don't realize it because we're so used to it. You could be used to things that are really not healthy for you and listen, you know, hearing the outside noise. And the loud noises of construction, you know, the normal life, if you're living in the city, the constant sirens and honking, and, you know, those things are actually very taxing on the nervous system.

  And they put us in a fight or flight mode because our bodies don't really recognize them isn't in the natural world. So it stimulates a more fight and flight response. So having that counter balance with practices like yoga. In calming the nervous system. And what I love about yoga is that it includes breath, all the things that really stimulate the vagus nerve mantra sound.

  So you're able to tune your vibration and breath. Which is also very calming because if you exhale longer, like there's certain controlled breath [00:17:00] where you're able to control your brain through breath and even movement, somatic energy work and emotions that we can at least much more easily, like that control, but manage with our

  bodies.

  Kerry: Yeah. I couldn't say it better myself, Michelle. That was perfect. I think one thing, right, like we, we, we know that the fertility journey is stressful. We know that life is stressful. We know that we're probably living in a heightened state in our sympathetic more than we, we would like to.

  And yeah, the yoga piece can just. hit so many things. And one thing we need to remember is that we are created like evolutionarily are, you know, we are more attuned to the stresses, right? For survival. So the loud, the loud noises, it [00:18:00] alerts us to look around and see, Oh, is there something coming for me?

  Or the bright lights and things like that. Like we're just constantly Like our bodies are looking out to keep us safe all the time. And we're tuned to that, right, that our bodies are naturally tuned to go in that direction. And there's way more stimuli that will take us that way. And then with the other side, the parasympathetic, we have to work harder and more intentionally to go there.

  And I think that is one of the things that is the hardest is you actually need to train the system to be more fluid. It's not the stress isn't going to go away. Stress isn't going to go away, but if you are training your nervous system to float more evenly back and forth between the two and taking the time to go parasympathetic as best that you can, whether it's with the breath or [00:19:00] with yoga or going for a walk in nature or anything like that You're rebalancing, but we have to make more effort that is just the way we're, we're built.

  And yeah, like things that will help us be calmer are like dim lights,

  quietude, support. So like lying down flat. So our body doesn't have to be alert, like even sitting, we have to be alert.

  So we might not fall over weight. Unless you're claustrophobic, of course so yeah, there's lots of things that we can add, and yoga does that.

  Restorative yoga, which is a huge piece of how I teach fertility yoga it, that is what it does. those are the things that we're embracing when we do restorative yoga.

  Michelle: I love restorative yoga.

  Kerry: Me too.

  Michelle: Oh, it feels so good. It really just feels so good. And you know what? I love to. I remember taking a yoga class and the teacher after we're laying in Shavasana said, allow the ground to support [00:20:00] you. And I'm like, just the thought of that changes. My experience laying down right now

  Kerry: Yes. Yes I say that too in my yoga classes or I'm like the earth is coming up to hold you and you Let the earth hold you like it's like a two way street. It's like here I am I'm here, but you need to let go into it too. Yeah, it, there's so many wonderful things about restorative yoga. I mean, it's not the only part of fertility yoga the way I teach it, but it is definitely a huge part of what I like to emphasize to help train the nervous system that like,

  Oh, Oh, I remember this place of calm and safety, right?

  And then if we can condition it with at the beginning of every Shavasana or every restorative yoga pose, you do three big, deep breaths, long exhales. The body then starts to put it all together. and [00:21:00] say, Oh, when she takes three big, long, deep breaths, it's time to relax. It's time to release and let go.

  So we can, there's so much we could do to support ourselves on that level, I think. But yeah, society makes it hard.

  Michelle: Right, so it's almost like a triggering relaxation response To something that you repeat over and over again I always say likeif you do meditation and you burn a specific incense That's clean or something that I'm even in the central oil Like diffuse a specific one every single time you start to meditate you're immediately going to It's almost like pavlov's dog.

  You're always going to associate it with meditation time and our scent brings us Right there because it's so connected our olfactory nerve, which is really responsible for our sense of smell Is connected to our brains directly

  Kerry: Yeah. And certain smells will be more grounding and, you know, so choose your smells. wisely, I would say, you know, where like,citrus [00:22:00] and high notes are a little bit more stimulating where like the deeper tones like sandalwood and like the earthy green trees, those sorts of things can just be really calming.

  And then plus the volatile oils that are in evergreen trees are calming to the nervous system.

  Michelle: Yeah. It's not amazing.

  Kerry: You know, so why not put those in your diffuser like use all the tools that you can and and and then things smell good

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Kerry: like

  I just

  Michelle: who doesn't like that?

  Kerry: Yeah Yeah,

  Michelle: That's awesome. So just take people through, likeif they've never really heard of fertility yoga, like what differentiates fertility yoga from regular yoga

  or other types of yoga?

  Kerry: Whoo. So the first I would say are the people that are in the class so it is just really dedicated to holding space for those that are trying to conceive and it can be anybody from, Oh, I'm just [00:23:00] thinking about it, but I, my periods have been a little weird all my life. I just want to get in tune with my body to those who have, you know, eighth round of IVF, like really deep into the journey.

  So I think the community piece is really important because, People like to be seen and understood. And when we do a check in at the beginning of our classes, even though it's online and there's all these little squares and so on on the Zoom room, people, you see people nodding and oh, and like sending hearts and doing all the things.

  And just creating community around that as opposed to if you went to a regular yoga class and you walked up to your teacher and said, Oh, by the way, I'm doing a stim cycle right now. They're not going to know what to do with you. They're not going to know how to keep you safe, nor are they going to know how to nurture that part of the cycle.

  So that's the 2nd piece is. Becoming or recognizing [00:24:00] where you are in your cycle and then matching the energies of that time. So follicular phase is a little more. Woo woo, woo hoo, right? Springtime, and follicles are growing, you have more energy because of the hormones, and an ovulation, you're just like the queen bee, right?

  So these are the energies that we would say, okay, if you're in the follicular phase, you're gonna do this twist, and so on, and blah blah blah. And then you would say, okay, oh, you're in the luteal phase, things are a little quieter, You might be pregnant, you're in the two week wait, you're post transfer, you're stimming, like all these things, then we need to be a little quieter with the body and give the pelvic area a little bit more space.

  So we would work with that and do some modifications for that. So really following the cycle. So when I'm teaching, I'm constantly, Okay, if you're in the follicular phase, you're going to do this. If you're in the luteal phase, you're going to [00:25:00] do this. So not only am I keeping people safe, but I'm also like finding the nourishing pieces as well.

  So it's like,I'm boosting that energy and keeping you safe where you wouldn't be able to do that in a regular class. And then the movement piece. Is really just like slow flow, somatic movement, a lot of it's pelvic centered, but not always because we hold tension and all different places in our body, the chakra system, the energetic system, right?

  We want it flowing as well as possible for many reasons. So it's lots of ooey gooey, juicy sort of moves in and around the pelvis. So what else did I forget? Oh, and of course the yoga wisdom part of it, right? The energetics, the, the wisdom. So I teach, I'm very thematic when I teach. So I will choose a theme and it may [00:26:00] come from yoga.

  For example, I did a class or I'm doing a series right now. We're doing an elemental series. So it's five weeks. Perfect. Five elements. Let's do this in yoga anyway, or in Ayurveda. So I'm like, we started with earth, like, why is earth, why is grounding important in fertility, then water and fire and so on.

  So, yeah, just bringing a new perspective into it, like something to be like, oh, okay, I get it. I get that, I need to be grounded and feel safe for fertility to I don't want to say be boosted, but to be, to feel safe, your body, or to be working at full capacity, whatever is happening in your body, your body needs to feel safe for the fertility hormones.

  Whew.

  Michelle: I'm sure there's a lot more even that you might not even realize it, you know, because when we feel safe, I [00:27:00] mean, there's so many things that our bodies naturally do. And our bodies are so intelligent. And it puts us into a growth cycle in general, like our bodies are able to regenerate and repair when it feels like it's getting rest, the proper rest.

  So, also uh, something that I've noticed, and I do have some patients, it's really interesting because it kind of correlates with jaw tension, but it usually correlates with hip tension.

  Kerry: Hip and pelvic floor, probably. Yeah.

  Michelle: And so that's something that I always think about with fertility yoga is really kind of like getting that area more free because it correlates to the first and second chakra.

  And the first chakra is really that rooted chakra, the place that we feel safe, and that holds up the second chakra, which is really where our fertility is. So in order to have that active, you know, it depends on that foundation of safety.

  Kerry: Yeah.

  Michelle: So also the blood flow, I'm [00:28:00] sure.

  Kerry: Oh, yeah. Yeah. See, there's so much. I like so many things. But yeah, so that somatic slow flow movement that's pelvic centered, of course, it's like, it's energetic, like bringing energy in and like moving energy, which is really important when we're in our lifestyle of sitting stagnant a lot of the time.

  And yeah, the blood flow, Like this gentle squeeze and release, right? Like it's constantly bringing in new oxygenated blood into the organs of the pelvis. And I think often in yoga, we don't think, we don't think about the organ level. when we're moving our bodies. And that's what I love about the Ayurvedic yoga.

  It's more okay, this is happening in your body. let's look at the liver, right? So you're doing side bends and the liver and the spleen and just incorporating more of those, organs, like the systems of the body. It's not just about. the [00:29:00] large muscle groups and releasing tension, which feels great and is lovely and good for energy and marma points and things like that.

  But we can also work at the organ level and the hormonal level.

  Michelle: Yeah, for sure. And do you also include pranayama? Yeah.

  Kerry: I do breath work. I don't do we're going to do half an hour pranayama every time, but I will integrate breath work or pranayama techniques. When they're suited for the theme or what we're doing with our bodies, sometimes mudra as well. So like, let's, Which is our hand gesture.

  Yeah. It's like a seal.

  Michelle: again, see, it relates to the meridians and the energetic connections in the body. It's like our body's like a circuit. So putting our fingers together in certain positions will actually link that circuit and, and have it continue.

  Kerry: Yeah, yeah, and [00:30:00] I was never really into mudras

  for quite a while of my yoga journey like I was like Oh, yeah, let's I'm gonna stick my fingers together do whatever all the things that you know Yeah, mudra and so on that you see all the time and then someone actually sat down and we we I learned and I experimented with like slowly touching your fingers together and then like you know, do you want to increase something or decrease something, et cetera.

  And it was actually very profound.

  And that energetic piece, I believe it, and it's now Ayurveda as well. And in yoga, energy is the thing that connects. The element that connects body and mind. Right. We're always talking about body and mind, but what is it that's, that's going on to connect those two?

  It's the energetic body. And pretty soon I am hoping western science will get on [00:31:00] board. It slowly

  Michelle: It is. It's really fascinating. I mean, that's a lot of Dr. Joe dispenses. He's always talking about like energy frequencies, and he talks about how we can connect and he does a lot of scientific research on it actually. So he looks at the brain waves and how they respond to certain meditations and certain energy movements.

  He does also breath a specific breath. And a lot of people have Kundalini awakenings. That's what it, I mean, he doesn't call it that. He talks about it more scientific and he talks about chakras. He doesn't call it chakras. He calls it energy centers. And it's basically the same thing that we've been, you know, we've been taught years ago, thousands of years ago.

  And ultimately, I mean, people are having Kundalini rising. They, they see this light, they feel this incredible energy just shooting through their spine from the base. It opens up cause that's where the Kundalini of people haven't really learned about that. They say that there's this [00:32:00] dormant energy at the root of your spine.

  That's always there, but it's sleeping. And so

  sometimes

  doing. Yep. And when we do breath work or certain types of exercises, it can actually awaken that when that awakens, a lot of people have spontaneous healing, spontaneous remission, and it's really fascinating. So his work is also very much based on quantum physics.

  And if you look at a lot of the old work and teachings of ancient cultures. They describe pretty much what we're learning as quantum physics. And it ultimately comes down to the fact that we are mostly energy and much, much, much, much less matter than we really think we are. We're like 0. 0000001. It's like a million tons of zeros.

  And then one, that's how our matter is. And if we actually Take it like the space actually is way more in between the [00:33:00] particles in our bodies and just what we

  see. So it's kind of like an illusion. It's really fascinating. So we really are vibratory beings, which is why vibration sound really impacts our bodies.

  I can nerd.

  I

  Kerry: I, I'm going to go, I'm

  going

  to,

  Michelle: all day long.

  Kerry: I know me too. Well, I, well, there's two things I wanted to talk about, but first I want to talk about space and spaciousness, openness. And I often say to my students, like magic happens in the space. So when we think about the body, We need space in our body, openness, spaciousness, for our body to function, right? between the synapses, there's a little gap, right? It's tiny,

  but it's there. And that we have, we need to have space, the womb, let's not forget, that is space. openness,

  spaciousness, [00:34:00] right? we have to have space in our digestive track and air and things like that to keep it moving.

  And now I'm like going off the deep end and also Ayurveda of course, right? anything that is moving in our body is the air and ether element and ether is spaciousness, it's openness. And so I often emphasize this idea you in class of creating space. When we move our pelvis, we're creating space.

  We're opening up, we're releasing blocked energy, if you will, or like stagnant blood, like we are getting things moving. And when things are moving, the magic happens, right? Like the space, we need that spaciousness. Oh yeah.

  I

  Michelle: that.

  Kerry: Yeah. The

  Michelle: Well, it's, it's so cool. I mean, cause, cause that's one of the things that Joe Dispenza does is he first, he almost puts you in an induction with his [00:35:00] meditations and he says space, and he wants you to focus on like this endless space. But the reason why is there's a rhyme. There's a reason for everything that he does is that when our minds focus on space, it actually creates.

  I don't know how to how he described it. Actually. I mean, I go to so many of his stuff, but I don't remember everything but he said that when you do that, I think it takes you almost to a different mind. Mental frequency brainwave when you start to focus on space.

  Kerry: Well, so Yoga Nidra, which we had talked about previously, but Yoga Nidra, which is like a 5, 000 year old technique that the yogis came up with it is about, it is about that. It is about slowing down your brainwave to delta wave, which is what your brainwaves would be like if you were in deep sleep. And why do we love deep sleep so much?

  Because that's when we heal, that's when we [00:36:00] process and calibrate and so on. Our organs are doing their cleaning up and all that and it's so important and it's definitely related to fertility that deep sleep state. And Yeah, with Yoga Nidra, we're purposefully going there, but being conscious when we're there.

  So it's an experience that we would never do. We would never get to that state on our, on our own naturally. Like we'd either be in deep sleep or we wouldn't be in Delta. So this is what I love about Yoga Nidra. And like you were saying, just even the concept of thinking about. Space or expansiveness or you know, you're in an airplane, you look out the window and all you see is infinite space.

  it never ends. It just goes on and on and on. Right. But yeah, it does, slow us down. It slows down the brainwave so we can get out of the, the gamma or the, you know what we're in right now [00:37:00] talking.

  Michelle: Yes. And it also gives you a sense of freedom. You just feel this like sense of peace and freedom from that space. Cause then you're like, ah, you know, there's just so much, and there's so many possibilities and it's open. And so for people actually who have not heard of yoga, Nidra, can you explain what it is exactly?

  Kerry: Okay. So yoga nidra, like I said, it's thousands of years old. It has so many benefits. I mean, it's so many like deep healing, but also like physical deep healing, but also mental emotional. So it takes, you know, sort of these deeply ingrained, maybe even ancestral patterns that we have, we can start to change those patterns.

  The body can process all of those things. It's so, it's. It's, it's the Soma we say in yoga, it's the sweet nectar. [00:38:00] It's the nectar that we want for our bodies, especially during fertility, but also to for overall health and longevity. We want to have that sweetness and that nectar in us. And what I use it for, I do a ton of Yoga Nidra in classes.

  It is It is a progressive deep relaxation technique. It that it has been, Huberman has taken it and called it non sleep deep rest because it's more palpable to Western mind. So it's been an eye rest and all these things. So it's yoga nidra has been taken and repackaged in many different ways for our Western minds.

  I love the traditional one. Of course, I'm sure you probably do too. And. Yeah, you just, you go

  ## Marker

  Kerry: progressively to put your body to sleep. So you go through body parts and you relax those body parts and we can, instill or implant a message. [00:39:00] We call it sankalpa, but you can call it whatever you want.

  Affirmation, it's not quite the right word. Intention maybe of what deep healing you want to happen. And that's sort of implanted throughout the deep relaxation part. And then yoga nidra is actually a state. It's not the progress of getting there. So yoga nidra is when you are, your body's asleep, you're conscious.

  But your brain is in these sort of Delta waves and sometimes you get there, sometimes you don't, and sometimes the journey is joyful to, to get there too, right? So it's not oh, you have to get to that state to get any benefit. You're still getting all that parasympathetic work going on. The body feels safe and protected.

  And most people feel very blissful. afterwards, they often say, Oh, it's like hypnotic that there's like this [00:40:00] hypnosis. And my voice too, I think it's like low and like kind of slow and steady. They're like, Oh, I just hear your voice and I start to relax. Right. So it is a really powerful tool. And if I were to choose one thing, like people say, what yoga pose should I do to help my fertility?

  If I could choose one thing I would say do Yoga Nidra for at least 40 days straight

  Michelle: Yeah,

  Kerry: and see what happens. I think it's perfect. And I have a program, 40 days, a 40 day program where you have the option to do Yoga Nidra every day if you wanted to, or meditation. So yeah, it's, it's perfect. It's really powerful.

  really

  Michelle: is so cool. And I'm excited actually to have you as a guest contributor

  to my fertility hypnosis toolbox. Soon. I know a lot of people, listeners are probably on there, so you guys I'll be very excited. I think by the [00:41:00] time this is out, probably going to

  Kerry: it.

  to you. I promise. I will do it. I feel honored

  Michelle: have time. you have time.

  Kerry: Yeah, I

  know. But I wanted to make it, this is me. I want to make it, I don't want to just maybe take an old recording that, you know, It's, you know, been out there for a while. Like I want to make new things for you and also like, where do we need the yoga nidra the most?

  Like the two week wait, perfect time,

  um, after law. So you know, I want to theme them so that there's it hits home for what people need the most.

  Michelle: Well, I'm so grateful for that and I'm grateful for this conversation. I think this is awesome. I can nerd out on this stuff

  Kerry: too. Me too. Me too. I

  Michelle: I think we're on the same page.

  Kerry: I am

  Michelle: fascinating.

  Kerry: nerdy about it. And,

  Michelle: Yeah.

  Kerry: and, I mean, I know, I love what you do. All the messaging that you're sending out there to those that are on this journey, I think it's so valuable and, [00:42:00] and needed. we need more voices that are like, here, right? here,

  Michelle:

  the ancient stuff, kind of like the bridging that ancient wisdom, that ancient nurturing, really connecting with nature. Cause I know that you also are a big fan of nature and being out in nature. And I think that really just kind of coming home to like our authentic authenticity of, as humans, and sort of the tribalness that, you know, coming home to really our roots and the sacredness that we have also as women.

  I think that that's there's so much power in that. And I think that a lot of people are thirsting for that. And that's why I nerd out on this. I say, it's you know, I could say my brain nerds out now, but I think my soul nerds

  Kerry: Mm. Oh, I love that. Yes, my soul nerds out on it. That is so good. I love that. I'm gonna use it

  if I

  can't

  Michelle: said, well, Carrie, like I, we had such a great conversation also on your podcast,

  Kerry: yes

  Michelle: guys. Yes. I highly recommend you guys [00:43:00] check out her podcasts. Fringe fertility. So it is definitely like something that I highly suggest.

  Cause you're going to get more of this amazing conversation on there and she has other guests on there. So yeah, very

  Kerry: thanks for the shout out for the podcast.

  Thank you. Yeah. Well, it was a pleasure to be here today and sharing this conversation. I could just do it forever and ever.

  Michelle: for sure. And also before we go, how can people find you? What are the best ways?

  Kerry: sure. So yeah, I have a website Fertile Body Yoga. So it's a virtual yoga studio dedicated to fertility. So fertilebodyyoga. com. That's probably the, the lead in place to find me. I'm on Instagram as well. I'm not a huge Instagrammer though. And lately, I'm feeling like I just might need to walk away because for my mental health.

  But I do have an Instagram account. It is fertile body yoga there. And yeah, like I'm always doing [00:44:00] some great collaborative workshops and I have a retreat coming up at the end of April. You can cut this out if it's not the right timing, but so an in person retreat in New Hampshire at the end of April with. Two lovely co creators. So that, that's the big thing. That is huge. This has been years in the making and

  it's

  finally

  Michelle: That's so exciting. Well, congratulations. That's really cool.

  Kerry: Yeah. Thank you.

  Michelle: Awesome. Well, Carrie, this has been a pleasure and we really do have great conversations. I could tell you that we definitely are very aligned in a lot of the way we view the body and really view the fertility journey. And also thank you for sharing your own experience and now sharing your story.

  Cause I think that a lot of people will be inspired by that as well. So thank you so much. This has been amazing.

  Perfect.

  Kerry: Thank you. for having me.[00:45:00] [00:46:00]

EP 328 Glutathione for Fertility: The Antioxidant Game-Changer

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I am joined by Dr. Nayan Patel @aurowellness, a pharmacist, researcher, and glutathione expert, to explore the critical role glutathione plays in fertility and overall health. Dr. Patel shares his journey from traditional pharmacy to developing a breakthrough delivery system for glutathione through the skin, and why this antioxidant is essential for protecting egg and sperm quality.

In this episode, you’ll learn how oxidative stress impacts fertility, why diet alone might not be enough, and how his innovative technology can support the body’s natural detoxification process. Be sure to tune in for this fascinating conversation packed with practical advice and insights for anyone on the fertility journey!
 

Guest Bio:

Dr. Nayan Patel @aurowellness is a highly sought-after pharmacist, wellness expert, and thought leader in his industry. Since 1999, he has collaborated with physicians to custom-develop medications and design patient-specific drug and nutrition regimens. As the pharmacist of choice for celebrities, CEOs, and physicians alike, Dr. Patel is recognized for his innovative approach to health and wellness. He is the author of The Glutathione Revolution: Fight Disease, Slow Aging & Increase Energy, which distills over a decade of clinical research on the master antioxidant, glutathione. His patented technology for delivering glutathione topically has revolutionized how the body absorbs this essential molecule. From this breakthrough, he also created the Auro GSH Antioxidant Delivery System, a skincare line designed to deliver antioxidants more efficiently and effectively than ever before.

Websites/Social Media Links:

Website: https://aurowellness.com/?ref=1670

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/FertilitySpecialistGabrielaRosa 

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/Aurowellness

For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Check out Michelle’s Latest Book: The Way of Fertility!

https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

• Transcript

  # TWF: Dr. Nayan Patel

  [00:00:00] [00:01:00]

  Michelle Oravitz: So welcome to the podcast, Dr. Patel.

  Dr. Nayan Patel: Well, thank you for having me. I appreciate the time today.

  Michelle Oravitz: Yes, I'm very excited to talk about what we are going to discuss, which is glutathione. But before we get to that, I would love to get your backstory and how you got into the work that you're doing today.

  Dr. Nayan Patel: Oh my god, absolutely. So start off as a pharmacist, as a career as a pharmacist, and after graduation [00:02:00] from pharmacy school. In Southern California, we were, we were trained to take care of the patient's needs and medications. And very quickly I realized that the medications we have at that time were actually not solving any problem.

  They were just maintaining people's problems. And very, very early on, you know, you have an aha moment in your life. That oh my god, what what did I just do right? Oh, I'm just not solving any problems So I had to turn my career to a completely different angle no former educations in in making medications or doing compounding or customizing medications that dive into the that practice and 25 years later here we are today and looking back at that and said, what a journey, what a turning point I had, because it shaped me for who I am today. I had the privilege of making medications and design treatment plans and drug plans for so many individuals helping them in their health and wellness journey. And then all [00:03:00] roads led to me to a discovery of a novel technology that can deliver glutathione. And it all started because I was just curious to find out how we can help people solve their own problems instead of trying to figure out medications to solve the problems. Right? Even though glutathione is not a, it's, it's something that body produces internally we're using it as a supplement today, but. And overall my goal was not to do anything and just enhance the body's own ability to to defend itself. And so here we are today it's a very interesting career for me for sure.

  Michelle Oravitz: For

  sure. And first of all, just for people listening that don't really know much about glutathione, I'd love for you to share really what it is and also why it could be so challenging to supplement with.

  Dr. Nayan Patel: Absolutely. so the glutathione in a nutshell Is three amino acids coming together in a single chain. It's a one of the smallest form of peptides we have You two amino acid chains, three amino [00:04:00] acid chains, four, five, 30, 40, 50, and thousands of the chains as well. The simplest form, of course, is glutathione, which is about three amino acids coming together. It's by far the most abundant molecule produced in the human body. And if that's produced so much, we ought to know what it's supposed to do for us. And so that's what my research came back for 140 years that we have known about glutathione. Nobody's ever figured out how to actually get inside your body. And so, 60 years ago, 70 years ago, we had a medication approved by FDA to enhance glutathione level. And as of today, that is the only medication that has been approved ever. In the whole,

  in the whole world, which is N acetylcysteine, which is one of the amino acids that's been used to produce chlorothione. And that's the only thing that has been available for the last 60, 70 years.

  Michelle Oravitz: So let's talk about what so we definitely, that's one of the things that um, I've been doing for egg health and also sperm [00:05:00] quality, cause it's such a high potent antioxidant. And one of the things that I have always suggested is N acetylcysteine because that's the precursor and we knew that that was like the one way that the body was able to produce it.

  Okay. Thank you. But then there were some supplements that still supplement with glutathione, liposomal, like different ways, which I know are not really shelf stable. So there's always been challenges with that, but before we continue on with that, I'd love for people to hear, like, what glutathione can benefit, how it can benefit the body.

  Dr. Nayan Patel: So, I understand your audience is interested more in the fertility side of the whole thing. So, you're dealing with rather younger individuals overall which is a good sign because younger patients have, everything at their disposal for the body to respond to even the smallest amount of nutrients that they receive. If the same amount of nutrients is given to an 85 year old person, they're not [00:06:00] going to feel anything, right? But if 20 year old person gets a small amount of good nutrition, they respond very, very well. And so I want to make sure that people understand that

  Michelle Oravitz: And also just to kind of mention um, sometimes we have 40 year olds too, that are trying to conceive or like trying to do IVF. So just kind of like, yeah, the whole,

  Dr. Nayan Patel: They're still spring chicken to

  Michelle Oravitz: okay. Okay. It's good for them to hear that.

  Dr. Nayan Patel: I mean, I've helped people in the very, I mean, in the late forties to get babies as well. So it's

  not something that's not doable. It's just gets incredibly hard after the age of 40. So it's, not that easy to do so, but the glutathione has multiple properties and understanding what glutathione does is, monument in over. in our therapies because with the two things that we do know is it's the ability for glutathione as an antioxidant to detoxify, neutralize all the free radicals in your body. But the second component is also help you detoxify by conjugating [00:07:00] inside your liver with metabolites and chemicals binding to them.

  So we can basically get rid of it from from your body. So the two functions that we do know That exists today. There's a lot more research still existing that we need to do. So we, we still are urging researchers to go back and use this new technology product and see if we can find out more things that glutathione can do for us.

  So one two the sperm or the egg quality is dependent on how your body is able to neutralize those free radicals. Those free radicals are actually toxic to all the embryonic membranes and embryos itself and the quality of the sperm and the egg itself. And neutralizing those free radical of body, there's three ways to do that part.

  One, you take outside products like vitamin C, and vitamin E, and CoQ10, and and C60s, and I mean, methylene blues, I mean, there's a slew of products that says, oh, we are so called antioxidants, right? So that's [00:08:00] category one. The category two of the products are produced endogenously inside your body are enzymes like catalase, supra oxide, puase, SOD, for short glutathione peroxidase, or GPX for short.

  So these are the enzymes that the body produces to deal with the oxidative stress or the free radicals. Okay, so those are the category one are the category two. The third category is only one product, which is glutathione. And if you look at it, the body produces so much of glutathione, and the effects of glutathione is so powerful, that if you combine the category one, which is all the antioxidants from outside sources, and the enzymes that your body produces, those two combine, Glutathione can surpass the antioxidant properties. And so I want listeners to understand very carefully is that the glutathione needs to be a basic cornerstone in everybody's arsenal. Every medicine chest in the world should have a [00:09:00] bottle says glutathione And in that bottle either you have a product or it have a note saying that eat healthy food to Let your body produce its own glutathione Either way that note has to be there on every medicine chest out there and you're right There's so much noise out there I want to cut to the noise today because if you just put your favorite search engine or your ai robot is going to tell you hey glirathion, there are a thousand different products out there.

  Choose one You Right. And as a consumer it's very hard to find out what to choose correctly and people hide behind a great technologies that that exists in the world and said, Oh, my, my product uses this technology. So it's the best one in the world. And you mentioned liposome technology, by the way, I just will let, you know, we were one of the very first few people that actually use liposome to produce the first liposomal glutathione. This was 25 plus years ago, right? And we made the liposome because at that time that was the [00:10:00] best technology that existed in the pharmaceutical world. And the doctor that owned the patents for those came to me and said, Hey, we've been very successful in making this for medications. Can you help me make nutraceuticals with it?

  Like vitamin C and CoQ10 and PQQ and S Xanthine and Glutathione and so on and so forth. And so we made the products for that doctor. And then a couple of years later. Some work, some did not work. Gluten was one of the products that did not work. So I go back and says, why is that working on everybody? The question I always ask is, hey, it helped my girlfriend. How come it's not helping me? Or it helped my sister. Why, how come it's not helping me? What, what, what am I, how am I different

  than the other human beings? and in reality, only your face is different. Internally, we are identical.

  A body has the same heart, the same organs, everything is the same, right?

  So we have not changed for the last 40, 000 plus years, [00:11:00] how to expect that I'm different than my sister, or I'm different than my girlfriend, or whatever, right? Maybe your genomic mixture is different, but your overall organs and organ systems are identical. And so to me, I said, okay, if it works in one person, it should work on everybody. If I get absorption in one person, I guess you should get absorption in everybody. What's the rate limiting factor? Why is it not happening? And so I didn't have answers at that time. I did not know what to do. So next story is that, okay, you know what? I'll make the intravenous form of glutathione. Hey, if I inject him into the bloodstream, my job's done. Again, took me a few months to figure that portion out how to make that part. And yes, This is long story short, we were Well, again, we were one of the first company pharmacy early on in 2001 to make the injectable form of glutathione. Now, very quickly, we realized that the effects of this glutathione was very short, right?

  And then I looked back in the research and said, there was a study done in 1991 [00:12:00] saying that if once you inject glutathione, it only stays in the body for between four It takes five to 15 minutes and everything gets destroyed or gets, get, get, it gets into the urine and you pee it out, but an hour and a half later, there was an increase of cysteine, which is one of the amino acids that went up in the blood. And so the researchers concluded that the body was breaking down this glutathione and cysteine was getting reabsorbed by the body and cysteine is being used for your body to produce its own glutathione. I said, okay, I don't care how the body makes it. As long as the body has a gluten, I don't care. But the results were very short lived. And I don't know if you know this thing, but back in early 2000s, one of the doctors came to me. I said, Hey, if it's short lived, that's okay. Let me take you to Vegas because when people drink, they deplete their glutathione levels. If it only stays for 15 minutes, I can revive somebody who's passed out drunk of their minds and I can get them.

  So. He literally took this product to Vegas and [00:13:00] start helping patients. I read scripts for those

  kinds of things. And again, I have nothing to do with it. I, unfortunately, I was just the supplier and I was just the maker of the product, but we saved so many lives. We helped so many people, but we were, we learned one thing that the action was not long term.

  And if I want the long term benefits, because if it's one of your patient, if it's one of your listener, who's, who's trying to get pregnant she, or he has to plan for A 30 day cycle, not a 15 minute. Give me some push right now and I'll be done. No, it's a

  30 day cycle. You have to plan everything methodically, right?

  What am I supposed to do from day one to day seven and from day seven to day 14. And after ovulation, what do I do? And after post ovulation, if there's an embryo implantation, what do I do? And so on and so forth. It's a, it's a whole process and your body needs to be clean this whole time. And none of the products were actually getting the results I was looking for.

  Later on, I found out, this was 2011 [00:14:00] University of Texas in Austin did a study on the liposome technology product of glirathione. And what they found out was same thing that they saw in intravenous form. The body actually breaks down the glirathione, never absorbs a single molecule of it. Absorbs the cysteine and cysteine is later used to produce his own glutathione. And the end story is, it still works. It still works. But people need to understand, just because it works, it does not mean your body absorbed it.

  And there's a there's a difference between that one and maybe some people may not appreciate that part But I do appreciate that part because in my case i'm dealing with thousands of patients across the country across the globe now And I want to make sure that I want to give assurance to everybody that hey if I give you a glutathione product No matter what it is going to get inside your body [00:15:00] and absorb it And so the liposome technology product was great until now People got a lot of people got results for almost 80 got results from it but not because it absorbs it because the body was able to Conjugate or take the cysteine and make its own glirathione today Today the things have changed now.

  Why? because 15 20 years ago We started doing gene testing gene snips You Right at that time it was nobody can afford it. I was fifteen twenty thousand dollars for a blood test Oh gosh, no, nobody can afford that today Same test is 200 bucks 300 bucks,

  Michelle Oravitz: Right.

  Dr. Nayan Patel: right? So now what's happened is that now everybody's doing these gene testings And finally got hey, do I have gene mutation where my body cannot produce gluothione

  if the answer is yes Then I don't care how much product you take from outside sources, the body is not [00:16:00] able to effectively produce glutathione correctly all the time.

  And so that to me is one more proof, one more proof that we need a product that your body can actually accept it, incorporate into their own DNA and use it when it needs to. Anyways, I just went off too many

  tangents no, Thanks very much, interesting. I want you to continue. So how did you find out and, and like how did you discover the product that you have now and what kind of technology does it use and how does it really impact the body?

  Absolutely. Those

  Michelle Oravitz: nerd in me wants to know

  Dr. Nayan Patel: Yeah.

  All great, great questions. And I want to, I really want to be an open book. I don't want to hide any information from anybody so that I'll be more than happy to open it up and let everybody know. So earlier when I first started the book. So we had a, we had a couple of barriers.

  One, what we knew was the body's not going to take any peptides, any amino acid chains to get it to and incorporate it into their own DNA. [00:17:00] What we, what I found out was the body has to make 100 percent of all peptides in the body, the body has to make it.

  Right. So we knew that I knew that part very early on. So I said, okay, there is no way on earth I'll be able to make a product that your body can use it up. Okay, so now I had to figure out Okay, how do I get this simple tripeptide three amino acid chain peptides into the body? So I first of all, I want to do, I want to create a stable molecule because if I have a stable molecule in my lab, I can work with it.

  If it's unstable, I don't have time to really experiment on it, right? So my first goal was to make a stable molecule. So that we achieved pretty fast. It took us a couple of years when we got the stable molecule. We took it by mouth. Again what we saw was Sistine went up, so it was not working really, it was getting broken down. We scored into the nose, I said, and if the nose was burning, I said, oh, nobody's going to use this on a daily basis. Of course not, right? It's not a, it's not a fun thing to do. I knew the [00:18:00] injectables was a little bit of an uphill battle because it requires FD approval and all those things. I said, you know what? The only route that was remaining was skin route.

  And of course, skin is a physical barrier, right? So it's a physical barrier that I have to overcome. And the physical barrier is, is a particle size barrier. So I had to reduce the particle size so small, It can get through the cracks or the pores of your skin and get inside your body. So that was the first challenge I had, which we were able to crack the code in about a couple of years. We had to take this peptides, twist it in such a form that doesn't get broken apart and gets a small, you know, like when you twist the towel, you know how it gets smaller and smaller and smaller, but you twist enough, it can get really small. And so that's what we did with this molecule. It forces microscopically, and we were able to reduce the particle size to much smaller. We got to the skin. The bigger challenge is this glutathione is inside your cells. So now the issue is that, [00:19:00] okay, we release a particle size, we get through your skin. Now, so the physical barrier, we, we all work in the physical barrier. The second was a chemical barrier. Because the cell wall is a lock and key.

  Hey, you say the magic word and the castle opens up and you can go inside. But if you don't say the magic word, the castle will never open for you. So the question then becomes is that what does the body needs?

  What does the cell needs to survive? All your mitochondria, the energy powerhouse in your body is in the cells, right? And that to produce the energy, what you need is carbohydrates and sugars. I cannot give you sugars because I give you diabetes and we already have an epidemic of diabetes in the United States across the world nowadays so I said, okay, how do I get a polysaccharide sugar type molecule?

  That doesn't doesn't do anything about the sugar is completely inert FDA has tested it out and it's completely safe to give to anybody pregnancy no pregnancy children's everybody And can I use that molecule? So we found [00:20:00] dextrin technology. This was a technology that has been out for about 20, 30 years now, but there are no good medications in the world.

  As even in today's state, there's not too many medications out there. People are still dabbling around. those technology products. And so we use the technology to literally, instead of working with medications, we start working with glutathione. We do the sugar molecule and stuff inside with glutathione. It's like, do you need M& Ms? Do you need

  Michelle Oravitz: No, not anymore,

  Dr. Nayan Patel: Not anymore,

  Okay, Good. Good. Do you, do you eat M& Ms for the peanuts or for the chocolate?

  Michelle Oravitz: I guess well, I used to like the chocolate ones when I was really, really little. And then later on peanuts,

  Dr. Nayan Patel: Exactly. But the thing is, you don't eat M& Ms for peanuts, you eat M& Ms for the chocolate.

  But the

  peanut inside, if you get a peanut, do you spit it out? Or you know what? It's not so bad. I can use it up.

  Michelle Oravitz: It's like I compare it to like, you know, the being able to take those pill things for your dogs where you put it inside a treat and get the dog to eat it. And[00:21:00]

  Dr. Nayan Patel: That's exactly right, right? So I took the carbohydrate, the sugar molecule, stuffed the glutathione inside, you know, so the body, when the carbohydrate hits the cell wall, the cell goes, oh, I can use this up. Right? And sucks it in. Inside is glutathione.

  But he goes, well, I can use this up too.

  It's not something new to me, so I can use this up too. Right? And so now, it's like you somebody tells you that, hey, I have a billion dollar coming to you, but it's coming in the mail. Well, that's not helping me right now, but if it hits my wallet, gosh, I can spend it today. Right? So, you can check the mail, it's in a transit, but until it hits the wallet, you cannot do anything about it.

  Saving glutathione, if the glutathione is in your body, but it's not inside your cell, the, the cell says that, okay, I need the glutathione, but it's way out there. It's not in my cell. I cannot use it up. Here we got inside the cell directly. [00:22:00] When we did that part, like magic just happened. All of a sudden, the body has a product.

  The body needs it. The money's in the wallet right now. I can go spend it today. And the body can actually use the glutathione immediately To start doing what? Two things that we know of as of right now. One is start neutralizing all the free radicals. That's number one.

  Number two, start getting my liver cleaned up and start detoxifying all this, all this metabolism in my system.

  When you do those things up, all of a sudden your whole body or your temple, your, your the sanctuary in your body starts getting healed from inside, starts getting cleaner. And all of a sudden the, main thing, which is our sperm and the eggs. Are not been invaded or not been attacked by this toxic chemicals.

  Michelle Oravitz: Right?

  Dr. Nayan Patel: And so that's, there's, there's my technology. We discovered this in 2007, as you can imagine 2007 it was too far [00:23:00] ahead of the game.

  There was nothing in the world that exists something even close to this thing. And so there was no studies being done. There's no research articles published. There's nothing out there in the world that I can fall back and say, Hey, go ahead and use it safe.

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah.

  Dr. Nayan Patel: do that part. So it took me another 13, 14 more years to literally do everything that I can do on my own. I have no funding.

  I did everything on my own. I put every single thing I have back into this to basically research it out. Apply for the patents, all my work that I did. I, in fact, I published a book about three, four years ago. All the work I did for the first 13 years, I put in a book. I said, Hey. Guys, here's read it, right? This is this is all my work and it's just success stories that I've given to patients and clients and And found friends and family that uses product and and see how how much benefit they got in different areas of life right if you're an athlete versus if you have metabolic disorders versus you have [00:24:00] metabolism, defects if you're on the spectrum because spectrum patients have some sort of Metabolism issues of detoxification issues that they cannot clear the toxins out of the body

  And they are the autism or aspergers or whatever they got right?

  So

  i've all the stories and I have some

  stories about horses and and dogs and how how they

  it helped them as well in their in their wellness, thing as well as anyways So that's all the stories in the book the glutton revolution. That's my book. But after everything got done We had a pandemic

  Michelle Oravitz: Right.

  Dr. Nayan Patel: the product was not even released yet You And the pandemic comes around and I've been begged by all the doctors around the country.

  I said, oh my god Please give us the access to the glutathione because I was working with doctors So they knew about this product, but none of the consumers knew knew about it

  And so that's when we actually did a soft launch. We didn't have a bottling. We didn't have a boxing. We have nothing at that time No website, we had a website, but it was like a nothing nothing crazy So 2021 [00:25:00] was the first launch of the product now we are here today, but, so anyways, so

  thanks for asking me this question, but I just wanna make sure the story

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah, no, I love the story because I think also I have very, very smart listeners, I'll be honest, like with a fertility journey, they are so educated. You know, it's such a motivator to really educate yourself. And a lot of times if I work with people in person online, I see the most educated people, they really know a lot.

  So I wanted to kind of have a background to really explain how the process works. Cause I feel like it's very empowering for them. And the two things that I know, like an N acetylcysteine. So that works as a precursor to get the cysteine. And then from that gets the body to produce glutathione. And then your product works through the skin and then is enveloped by the carbohydrates, right.

  Or the yeah,

  Dr. Nayan Patel: is, it, it's, it's a polysaccharides is what we call 'em. And it's embedded inside that one. It's the, analogy I can [00:26:00] give you is that, hey if you need money, there's two ways to get money. One is I'll give you a job. You work at it. And you, you share your trades and then for the reward, I'll give you money. The second part is here's the money in your wallet. I'm not going to give you too much of it. I'm just going to give you enough to survive the rest. You still have to go make it yourself. Right. And so the second part, I give you enough to survive. Your body says to make the rest of the glutathione from the foods you eat and things like that.

  but a lot of people need, just need a little edge over everybody else. So

  I just give them extra glutathione to make sure that they are able to use up right now, because when you have a problem today, if you need the money today, and if you give you a job, I said, that's good, but I need the money now.

  I don't need money two weeks

  from now.

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah.

  Dr. Nayan Patel: And so that makes it very, very useful. And in, in certain cases, I'm not saying that is good for everybody.

  What I am saying that is good for everybody, but the product may not be good for everybody,[00:27:00]

  but having a healthier lifestyle, having the cysteine rich diet.

  Is absolutely a must I

  don't care what what age you are, right?

  That is absolutely a must

  So if you do that, if you have a healthy lifestyle, that means avoid the toxins that depletes the glutathione levels

  Having the diet that consumes that gives all the amino acids those two things combined Will will give you a fighting chance for long periods of time where you don't need any supplementations

  The supplementation is very good for people that need extra help or temporarily

  And then once your body gets under control then you can stop it, too

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah. And then, so the couple of questions that come to my mind is you know, I'm, I'm a, also a big believer, obviously it sounds like it's doing something, but I'm also a big believer that like nature has a very a method for its madness. And I'm wondering, is there a reason why it's under such lock to allow um, glutathione in by itself, rather than having the body produce it?

  It was just [00:28:00] kind of like something that came to my mind.

  Dr. Nayan Patel: know.

  Michelle Oravitz: you were mentioning that.

  Dr. Nayan Patel: and you're right. I mean, the body is, is equipped to deal with, because any peptides that you, that the body can accept from outside sources can actually get embedded into your DNA.

  And so having the purity, what if you give somebody else's DNA inside your body?

  Michelle Oravitz: Right.

  Dr. Nayan Patel: Wow.

  Right. Think about it.

  Think about it. You're injecting somebody else's DNA. Some, some of the protein

  from something else that is not made by humans. The body is going to start going to cycle, react to it and say, Oh my God, what if well, we have vaccines right nowadays. What are the vaccines are proteins by outside of viruses, right? How about we use those embedded into our own DNA?

  So that's the, that's a scary part to me. And so that's the reason why a body does not allow anything from outside sources to get inside your body.

  It's very [00:29:00] very protective. Glutathione we do know is produced endogenously. It's

  inside your body, making sure that the glutathione the raw materials that we use Is of the highest highest quality.

  I would say 99. 99 percent pure is what we need. Otherwise, we just going to have a chance of making sure we have a chance that we can harm our body. And so

  just so for when I, when I first heard that in 2007, I quickly, I realized that I have to bring manufacturing in house.

  I can't trust anybody to do this for me.

  It literally took me eight years to build my own plant out

  small plant But just enough so that I can control every single thing making sure the water that I use is the highest quality Everything that goes inside is for the highest quality products. That's why I had to Ensure that so I brought everything in house.

  It was too costly to make it It's still too costly to make it and to [00:30:00] reduce the cost. I had to make sure that I I am, I'm going straight from the manufacturers to the consumers and there's no too many middlemen in between to reduce the cost down.

  And so we've been doing whatever it takes and you're right.

  The by doesn't take it. So having that technology to bypass this is somehow empowering that we can do that part. But it's scary is that we can use the same technology to, to hurt somebody too.

  Michelle Oravitz: Mm hmm. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. And thank you for answering that. And also, my question is, what have you seen in the research? Like, what have you seen short term, long term, because you, it sounds like you guys have been working with us for a long time, in the response of people's bodies and conditions.

  Dr. Nayan Patel: Absolutely. So just FYI of a human body gets everything gets, gets redone every 30, 60, 90 to 120 days.

  That means you get new cells in your bodies all the time.[00:31:00]

  The body is constantly constantly making new cells, better cells so that you can rejuvenate yourself from inside out, right? So the body is, it's like you're having a house, constantly remodeling your house from inside all the time, right?

  So no matter what happens, if I make a hole in the wall, you know what, a few months from now it'll be a brand new wall again. I don't have to do anything, just have to wait and don't make it further damage the wall, right? And

  it'll be repaired by itself. So the body repairs itself. The issue is that. The glutathione can actually improve the repair process to the point where it repairs better.

  And you can feel the effects much, much faster.

  Now certain organs take them 12 to 18 months to repair. For

  example, liver, it takes a long time to repair. So, any, if you're looking for benefits for liver health that may take anywhere from 12 to 18 months. Even though if I have doctors I work with all the time and the doctor says, Oh, my, the liver function tests are coming normal. I said, just because the tests have [00:32:00] no, that doesn't mean the liver is normal, right?

  I guess you're right. Absolutely right. So they do ultrasounds. They do scans and things like that to figure that portion out. But again, it takes them 12 to 18 months to fix it.

  At a short term people when they have have issues with oxidative stress.

  The biggest issue I've seen is these are, these are people that have some gene mutations that cannot produce, they cannot conjugate and make enough glutathione. They have this brain fog that has been lingering on for decades, decades, right? For 10, 20 years sometimes. Of course, these are older people.

  These are not 20 year olds. And so they've been struggling and All of a sudden, they use a gluotide and about 15 minutes later, they can just see the, just brain just opens up. Now, it is not a, it's not a something to improve your memory. It's not this magic pill that you see in the movies. It's here,

  one pill, my brain just fires up and I'm, I can

  think and I can do anything I want to do.

  It's not that pill, it's a

  Michelle Oravitz: but I'm sure it can prevent things like Alzheimer's or things like that. Mm hmm, [00:33:00] mm

  Dr. Nayan Patel: well, Alzheimer's and Parkinson's and things like that as well. But in the short term, when people see the brain fog clears up, all it's doing is reducing oxidative stress.

  Michelle Oravitz: hmm.

  Dr. Nayan Patel: If you need to reduce oxidative stress, so I've seen results as much as 5 to 15 minutes. Up to two to four weeks in most

  individual And two three to six months in I would say 99 of the people they see some improvement in their health and wellness and they're most of them are working with the physicians So they're doing some blood tests before and after the doctors are saying what the heck you're doing I don't know what you're doing, but keep on doing it.

  It's very good for you. So

  Michelle Oravitz: That's really interesting. And then also, if you were to get, you know, outside source of glutathione, the body feels the glutathione, will it make an impact on the body's own production of glutathione now that it feels that it has more.

  Dr. Nayan Patel: Absolutely. And the thing is [00:34:00] the the biggest concern that people have that hey What if if I take glutathione from outside sources with my body shut down his own production?

  And yes and no, I think the body probably may reduce the production, it probably will not shut it down because keep in mind when we're comparing, because most people have been burned by, hey, if you take steroids, your body will, it'll blow up like a balloon and because the body is not able to make its own regular, its own steroid production, which is true, which is 100 percent true. endocrine system is tightly regulated from your gonadal hormones, your pituitary and your ovaries and your testes and to the brain, which is the pituitary the hypothalamus, right? So they both work together, your brain tells your ovaries to produce the hormones, the ovaries produce the hormones, the ovaries cannot produce the hormones, The brain is going to keep on sending signals.

  Can you do more? Do more? Do more? Because I can't do anymore. I'm already tired. I'm burnt out. I'm just, I'm shriveled up. I can't do anymore. Right? Versus if you [00:35:00] take a hormone from outside sources, it affects straight to the pituitary. And the pituitaries will shut down and say, Hey,

  no more producing hormones.

  You got too much. I don't know where it's

  coming from,

  but

  Michelle Oravitz: like a thermostat,

  Dr. Nayan Patel: Right? It's a negative feedback. But when it comes

  to glutathione, glutathione is not triggered by any brain or hypothalamus. Glutathione is taking three

  amino acids together, two enzymes, two molecules of ATP, which is energy, and one molecule of NAD

  for electron transfer. All this to come together to make glutathione. Right?

  Now this same energy, ATP energy, NAD energy is being used in thousands of chemical reactions that happens every single day.

  So keep in mind, if your body does not have to produce glutathione, your energy is never wasted. It's used to do other reactions all day long. But the good thing is that glutathione is by far the most abundant molecule produced in the human body. [00:36:00] And after a couple of weeks or so, the body is saying, hey, everything is not working great. Now for two weeks later you see some increasing energy because now the energy is is Getting excess and your body goes.

  Oh my god. I have excess energy now all of a sudden. It's not a car It's not a caffeine type energy It's not like jumping up and down type of energy, but you do feel good from inside out

  Right. You do feel good. And all of a sudden

  you pick up other habits, walking, jogging, cycling, you know, or just going out and just, you just have this, this energy inside your body that you want to do other things.

  You just feel alive from inside.

  And so, and then when you stop the glutathione, the body says, okay, oh, should we have, we need more glutathione. So the first energy goes towards producing glutathione, but if you have enough glutathione, that energy has been used to produce other peptides. Keep in mind, a

  muscle needs what?

  6, 100 amino acids coming together. Takes a lot of

  energy to produce muscle fiber.

  So if you're not [00:37:00] using the energy to produce glutathione, hey, hopefully it goes to producing more muscle mass. I'm hoping for that.

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah. . And is there like a limit on how long you should take it? you know, is there a limit that you have?

  Dr. Nayan Patel: So, I do know that your body needs glutathione until the last day you die.

  So, until that day, you have to take it.

  After you're dead, I'm not sure if your body needs glutathione or not. So, that's a joke. I'm sorry. But your body needs glutathione to survive. Every single day. So the needs are going to be the endless. the better

  question to me is that do I need to supplement every single day of my

  life? That's a way better question for me to answer is to that that question came to me in my mind long time ago as well. And so what I have found out is that the body needs glutathione. to survive. Your body has the ability to produce glutathione, plenty of it on a daily basis. And what

  I found in [00:38:00] my research that up until about the age of 30, there is no need for any supplementation. None.

  Improve your diet, reduce your exposure to toxicities. You should be fine.

  Michelle Oravitz: Right?

  Dr. Nayan Patel: Between 32, 35, if you have a healthier lifestyle, don't drink alcohol. Don't expose yourself to heavy levels of toxicities.

  Don't do sunbathing a whole lot. And having a very clean diet, you might still be okay. 35 to 40, I would say 80, 90 percent of the people may need to supplement gluathione, over

  40, I have yet to find somebody who has normal levels of gluathione and so the question that I ask is, Hey, what's Well, my mom in the fifties and sixties never had to use a gluathide, and she lived for long periods of time, so why is it today, right? But keep in mind, at that time, sixty years ago, maybe the world population was three billion, now we are eight billion population. And who are the biggest polluters in the world? Is it the [00:39:00] animals or the humans?

  Michelle Oravitz: Humans.

  Dr. Nayan Patel: Humans.

  Animals don't even wear clothing. They don't even do anything. They don't have to build any houses and, and destroy the world. They just live, enjoy the world and leave the world the way it was when they came in. Us humans wants to fly, wants to build a hundred story buildings and wants to drive cars and wants to do all kinds of things. So we are the biggest polluters and the pollution has literally what more than doubled in the last 60 years. So if we say that the, the modernist society is polluted, the answer is

  absolutely yes. And it's not, it's not like we are turning the tables and we're going on the other way around. So like it or not, nobody's willing to give the modern day conveniences at this point.

  They don't, they're not going to do that part. So the question is that yes, Maybe my mom did not need gluten until the age of 50 or 60 [00:40:00] maybe. That's dropped down to 30, 35 or 40 at this point. And I'm scared for my kids because they may need glutathione at the age of 25 That's that's not a good thing to do, but it's just just telling us that our memory is getting more and more polluted and we need to figure out every single thing that we can do to enhance our body to stay clean from inside.

  Michelle Oravitz: And is there a benefit to taking N acetylcysteine as well as the, the skin,

  um, supplementation?

  Dr. Nayan Patel: okay, so NAC or cysteine so there are about eight essential amino acids that you have to take every single day Cysteine is not one of them Cysteine, Glycerine, and Glycine. Those are the three amino acids that's used to produce glutathione. Those three are not even in the part of the eight essential amino acids. So if you take cysteine and the glutathione topical version that we have, the cysteine is not going to be used up to produce glutathione at all. It may be used up for some other components, but not for [00:41:00] glutathione. I would suggest that if you're doing that part, then save your money and just improve your diet,

  right? If you have the money, I would rather you invest in those eight essential amino acids. Those are much better to do that, like Lucid and Proline. And so those are much more better to for you to use it on a daily basis. I'd rather you spend the money on that than to spend the money on the SysTeam.

  Michelle Oravitz: Got it. And then what are some of the foods and, that you would recommend for the glutathione diet?

  Dr. Nayan Patel: Michelle, I've been told not to advise people on diet

  Michelle Oravitz: Okay. Thank you

  Dr. Nayan Patel: is worse than the religion and politics. So I'm going to tell you one thing. All right. So everybody has a, has an AI robot. Everybody has access to AI robot.

  Go type it up.

  Sistine rich foods.

  Michelle Oravitz: Sistine Richards

  Dr. Nayan Patel: You're going to get your vegan choices, vegetarian choices, carnivore, [00:42:00] paleo, Atkins.

  I don't know what a longevity diet.

  I don't know. Don't die diet. I, I don't know. There's so many diets out there right there right now. All these

  diets are going to be satisfied if you just type in the word system food and see what food are you willing to eat and make and have a variety of foods from that list

  that you consume on a daily basis.

  Like what's in that list? I, you know, on an everyday basis, every single day.

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah

  Dr. Nayan Patel: in there, asparagus in there, there's oysters and chicken and turkey. And I mean, you can name it, right? There's so much stuff is in there that you can consume.

  It's not a small list, right? But you have to make it a part of the routine.

  But that's just one thing. That's just one thing. The second part, which is utmost important, is limit. Limit your exposure to toxicities,

  Michelle Oravitz: yes true [00:43:00] Oh,

  Dr. Nayan Patel: pure. Right is important and because of that guess what my technology I even dove into the skincare as well

  because because most of my customers were females.

  Well now they are like 50 50 today But at that time all my customers female and they look at the technology and say hey Can you give me all the antioxidants for my face as well? I said sure. It's that's easy, right? So I just went got all the antioxidants and I said, okay Put it squeeze the size right so I can shove a whole bunch of stuff into this couple of products And so I have like seven or eight different antioxidants in full concentration and some are even more in like two creams

  right And then two of the serums I give like 10x of what you what you get from any of the products in the marketplace today so I give you a vitamin c and glutathione in a very high concentration to your skin Gets your skin completely disperses really really fast and gets gets to the all the skin in your whole body And so anyways, so I

  did that [00:44:00]

  Michelle Oravitz: if you do that, To your face, is that the same thing, the same technology that will get glutathione in your cells? So it's kind of like two in one?

  Dr. Nayan Patel: So it is, it is it's the same technology, but what we have to done is we have to identify the speed and how deep I want to go inside. So

  the skincare is more

  for,

  Michelle Oravitz: different. It's more

  Dr. Nayan Patel: yeah, but I would always say that if you're using both that do not double up, do not double up, right? If you're using both that

  your skincare routine, as is the way it's been introduced to you,

  and then just add on the, the top of glue that just once a day.

  Michelle Oravitz: I

  Dr. Nayan Patel: And you, and you still get the, I mean, you get full benefit. That's the ultimate Longevity hack is what I call

  them, right? Cause the beauty is inside out.

  The ultimate longevity hack is you do the full skincare routine

  and just do once a day of the glutathione. If you don't do the skincare routine, just the glutathione twice a day is, is, is, is what you need.

  That's an ultimate bio is, [00:45:00]

  Michelle Oravitz: Oh, that's great.

  Dr. Nayan Patel: I have.

  Michelle Oravitz: Well, listen, I mean, I'm curious. I'm sure people listening are very curious, how can we find out more? How can we buy this stuff and get ahold of it?

  Dr. Nayan Patel: Absolutely.

  So, my website is oral wellness. com. A U R O wellness. com. Go to the website. There is a two part on the top is skincare and wellness. Otherwise you can go to oral skincare. com as well. The same thing. My urge is that if you are any of this patients that is Not able to give up monitor conveniences or you may suspect that you may have low glutathione levels I would probably strongly suggest you try it for 30 days

  It is,

  we do offer a hundred percent, a hundred percent money back guarantee.

  We don't charge shipping and handling. We'll refund you everything, right? We will, we will do full refund of everything. Cause I just want people to try it out. And once you try it for 30 days and if you see slight benefit of [00:46:00] it then it's the best thing that can happen to you for the rest of your life.

  It's one thing that I have, I have customers for now for 17 years, since the first we discovered this product. That will, that's like a, it's a go to product in the arsenal. It's like, it's always there. And I'll tell you, I'll give you another analogy right now, because I wanted people to really understand what this is, because as you age, your body is deteriorating, is diseased, and it is, is, is breaking down, right? It's like. You go to your, when you go to your home you leave your door open. And as soon as I leave the door open, the dust, the wind blows the leaves inside. And so what you do is you bring your vacuum out or your, or your broom out and start sweeping and guess what? There's more dust and more leaves coming out.

  Right?

  So what do you do? I'll say, Oh my God, I forgot to close the door. Once you close the door, you can literally clean the whole house from inside and make [00:47:00] it brand new again.

  Right? Oxidative stress, oxidative stress, production of free radicals is the opening of the door analogy in your body. Oxidative stress is not doing anything, but it's allowing every single thing to come inside your body. And destroy the body from inside and unless you block that and close it up

  You cannot buy your body does not heal from inside, right? So the glutathione is actually closing the door is actually closing the door and then allowing your body to what to start getting? Cleaned up from inside and start repairing itself inside So at the bare minimum at the bare minimum if you do for four months You're going to have every single day Products in your body, every single cells, organs, every single thing you're going to have allowed them the chance to [00:48:00] regenerate self.

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah.

  Dr. Nayan Patel: after four months, yeah, it's after four months, it's like game over. So I have people that even today's they, they said, I know what I have to do. It's just that I just keep on forgetting.

  I said, that's okay. You know, close the door first. You know, it's, it's no fun sweeping and wrecking your house every single day.

  Michelle Oravitz: No, no, it's not. I agree. Wow. This is amazing. Really, really fascinating information. I just love the fact that you have a background from, from ecology. I mean, that you understand it really from the inside out and that you were able to apply technology and really understand it from your perspective and that you had these ideas to create a product like that, that's really cool.

  Dr. Nayan Patel: and I, I wish I had this product when we were going through our early on in my life because my wife had a hard time conceiving and it took us nine years to have a first

  son. Yeah, and it's not that we were trying for nine years. It's just that [00:49:00] after marriage, it took us nine years to have the first son and we only tried for maybe about a couple of years before.

  And then. We did, I think we did one, one, I think two IVF cycles.

  And I said, this will be the last one. We'll never do it again because I know the damage it causes to the human body.

  And I wasn't the one suffering, but I know it was going to destroy her body for the rest of her life. So I was not willing to put up with make her go through the process, even though it was like something that is so blissful to you, right? When you have a kid.

  So, yeah, we did all the traditional because I was pharmacist. I knew I'll do all the hormone therapies. I did all the hormones

  correctly. Everything was just fine, but she just was not producing any follicles. The follicles were there, but they're not producing any eggs.

  I knew that it was oxygen stress, but at that time I had nolu thi product in

  me. And So uh, it is just so unfortunate, right? But today you have that if you are a young person that is trying to conceive you have this thing, [00:50:00] at the very least, just use it for a few months. It gives it by the chance. And and, and hopefully you have a healthy baby. That's, that's always my

  Michelle Oravitz: Yeah, that's the hope. Yes. And sending all of that good, good energy and good thoughts to everybody listening. So thank you so much, Dr. Patel for coming on. This is a great conversation. I will have all the links to the website and everything in the episode notes for people to view if they want to stop, stop the car and then go look, but thank you so much for coming on today.

  This is a great conversation.

  Dr. Nayan Patel: Appreciate your time today. It's my pleasure to be here today. Thank you. [00:51:00] [00:52:00]

EP 327 Why Unexplained Infertility Is a Symptom, Not the Problem

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I am joined by world-renowned fertility specialist and Harvard-awarded scholar, Gabriela Rosa @dr.gabrielarosa, founder of The Rosa Institute. Gabriela has dedicated her career to helping couples overcome infertility, miscarriage, and failed treatments to create healthy families. With over 20 years of experience, her Fertility Breakthrough Program™ boasts a remarkable 78.8% success rate, even for couples who had previously faced long-standing fertility challenges.

In this episode, Gabriela explains why infertility is a symptom of deeper health issues and shares how addressing these root causes not only improves fertility but also enhances overall health. She also delves into her innovative, evidence-based approach that combines modern science and natural medicine to deliver transformative results. Be sure to tune in for this enlightening conversation packed with practical advice and hope for anyone navigating the fertility journey!
 

Guest Bio:

Gabriela Rosa @dr.gabrielarosa is a world-renowned fertility specialist, author, and Harvard-awarded scholar. She is the founder of The Rosa Institute and creator of the Fertility Breakthrough Program™, which has transformed the lives of over 140,000 couples in 110+ countries. Gabriela’s work focuses on addressing the root causes of infertility using an evidence-based approach that combines modern science with natural medicine. With extensive training in reproductive health, naturopathy, and public health, Gabriela is passionate about empowering couples to achieve their dream of parenthood while improving their long-term health and well-being.

Websites/Social Media Links:

Website: https://fertilitybreakthrough.com/

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/FertilitySpecialistGabrielaRosa 

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/dr.gabrielarosa/ 

Fertility Breakthourgh Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/fertilitybreakthrough/ 

Fertility Breakthourgh Facebook:https://www.facebook.com/rosainstitutefertilitybreakthrough 

For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Check out Michelle’s Latest Book: The Way of Fertility!

https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

• Transcript

  [00:00:00] Michelle Oravitz: Welcome to the podcast, Gabriela.

  [00:00:06] Gabriela Rosa: Thank you so much, Michelle. It's so lovely to be here.

  [00:00:09] Michelle Oravitz: So lovely meeting you. We just had a really nice pre chat and I would love for you. I always like to hear an origin story. I would love to get your background and how you got into the work that you're doing right now.

  [00:00:23] Gabriela Rosa: And sure. Look, I think if for me, I've been doing this work since 2001. So it feels like a very long time, probably because it is. I, when I start seeing my page, my, my patience, babies graduating from university. I'm

  [00:00:37] Michelle Oravitz: Oh my God. That is crazy. Cause you look so young.

  [00:00:41] Gabriela Rosa: Oh, thank you. It must be all those herbs and nutrients, you know, but, um, it's funny because like, that's exactly last two years ago, I had this experience of like seeing, literally seeing one of my babies graduating from university and thinking, Oh my God, where did the time go?

  [00:00:59] You know, like, [00:01:00] that's just crazy, but, um, but it's, it's been wonderful. It's been a wonderful journey. Um, I don't know that I have. In a way, I think that, you know, we, as, uh, Steve Jobs says, you can't, or said, you can't join the dots in advance. You know, sometimes you can only join the dots in retrospect. And as I look back, I think, you know, I don't know that I planned to be where I am, but in a way I plan to be exactly where I am, if you know what I mean.

  [00:01:32] It's a very strange kind of

  [00:01:35] Michelle Oravitz: It found you.

  [00:01:37] Gabriela Rosa: certainly found me, that's for sure. Um, and it was really through my experiences with patients that That it shaped the specific area that we focus on because we really only treat couples who typically have been experiencing infertility, miscarriage, failed treatments, and really have, you know, have tried everything and nothing has worked like that's who [00:02:00] we treat.

  [00:02:01] And it certainly didn't start out that way. My, my passion when I first started doing what I do was that I wanted to make sure We had a contribution to making the world a better place, one healthier baby at a time. And I really had in my young mind that I wanted to help as many people who wanted to have a baby to prepare, to do preconception preparation, to be the healthiest version of themselves because we know epigenetics matters.

  [00:02:27] We know that the way in which, you know, uh, prospective parents go into a conception attempt and certainly conception in general will. either increase or improve the health of a child or, or decrease it, you know, there is no zero net some kind of effect. There's only ever always positive or negative effects.

  [00:02:48] Neutral effects are generally kind of weighed down to negative effects. So for me, and I'll talk more about that if you want to, but, you know, for me, it was that whole idea that I wanted to ensure [00:03:00] That we were making that contribution. And it was interesting because although some people were really interested in being the healthiest that they could be, most people were not, most people are like, Oh, this is just too much work.

  [00:03:13] Let's just start trying. And if we have a problem, then we can do something about it. And that was never really my attitude towards it because the way that I see certainly the work that we do. There is another layer to it, which is not so much about the physical and the functional. Although, of course, we address that our program has a 78.

  [00:03:32] 8 percent success rate for people who previously, you know, were infertile, lots of failed treatments and all of those things. And we validated those results through my masters in public health at Harvard. So we know that, you know, what we're doing certainly makes a difference. But. It really, for me, the undercurrent and the underlayer of why I wanted to do this work was actually for self actualization of the patients who came to us, you know, it was for really being [00:04:00] able to reach one's full potential in terms of health and how that impacted other areas of their life.

  [00:04:06] And that's how I wanted to work. And the people who were coming in for preparation really were not into that kind of work. And so I started to see that the people who are more in alignment with the work that I wanted to do and the legacy that I wanted to leave in the world were the people who were having difficulty.

  [00:04:27] And so I started to kind of focus more and gravitate more towards, you know, those, those challenging experiences and how to help people overcome them and, Transition and almost kind of transmute what they were going through. And about five or six years into it all, I had a patient who really changed the trajectory of my whole career.

  [00:04:52] And she had been referred to me by a friend who thought that she should have a conversation with me. She had been infertile for [00:05:00] 10 years. She had done multiple failed IVF cycles at the time. And even though now I talk about that case and it's kind of like, Every day in the office for me at the time, it was the first time that I was seeing that.

  [00:05:11] And so I was like, Ooh, I don't know that we can help that kind of sit or that I can help that kind of situation. You know, I don't know that there's much that I can do, but she was really insistent and quite adamant. I actually talked to her the other day and told her this story because she didn't even know.

  [00:05:25] Yeah. And she was like, Oh my God, that's so amazing to know. But you know, it's, um, what I ended up happening was that because she was so insistent at doing something, she said to me, she said, look, it's going to be my last try. I'm not going to do any more treatment after this. You know, I'm getting older. I don't want to continue this.

  [00:05:43] It's been long enough. So I said, look, that's fine. Let's do what we need to do and we'll see what kind of result we get. And Three months later, after years of nothing working, she was actually, it was about four months later, she was pregnant and I was like, Oh, okay. So there's, there's something here, you know, but then at the same [00:06:00] time, I thought, Oh, that's, that's strange.

  [00:06:02] I actually doubted my own, my own results, you know, I was like, Ooh, I don't know, I don't really know if, um, if this is just one of those. Luke situations, you know, one of those kind of like random occurrences. But then there was another patient who came to me not long after her, who was infertile for 19 years and yeah, and then I was really like going,

  [00:06:25] Michelle Oravitz: Wow.

  [00:06:25] Gabriela Rosa: I really don't think that I can do anything for you.

  [00:06:27] She was 44 by the time she came to me. I had a conversation with her. I said, look, it's not usually, obviously what walks through my door is not 19 years of infertility, but just recently I had a lady who had been trying for 10 years. We can give it a go and see what happens. And we did that. About five or six months later, she was pregnant.

  [00:06:46] And so I was like, okay, now to, you know, randomness can occur, but to is a bit like a lot. And so, um, and so I started to, after we had that, that success, so I had that kind [00:07:00] of experience. I started to then really decide that, okay, you know what, I'm only going to treat people who have been. Trying for more than two years and nothing has worked.

  [00:07:09] And I did that for many, many years. And when I finally went to do our study for the for the fertility breakthrough program and its results when I was doing my masters at Harvard, we realized that Yes, we had a 78. 8 percent live birth rate for people who had been infertile for almost four years on average, plus or minus almost three years.

  [00:07:34] So it really helped me to realize that, okay, this definitely makes it, you know, what we do and the methodology that we use, and that obviously I've developed over the years. really does make a difference to address these really difficult, complex cases of couples who, and individuals as well, you know, sometimes we do get solo reproduction patients who come to us who have been experiencing FALD, or egg [00:08:00] cycle, or IVF cycle, but mostly couples who know that there is more that they kind of intrinsically know there's more they can do, but they don't know what.

  [00:08:08] And they also are very unclear typically about why it's not working. You know, they have these unexplained diagnosis of either infertility or failed treatment or miscarriage, and they keep being told, Oh, everything is normal. Just keep trying. And we know that clearly, What is normal is that you have sex, you get pregnant, you hold your baby, that's normal.

  [00:08:33] A deviation from that tells me that, okay, there's, there's more that we need to ask in terms of what's going on here and certainly more that we need to answer if we're going to get somewhere. So that's how it all started. And I guess that's how it's going, you know,

  [00:08:50] Michelle Oravitz: Sorry. I had to mute myself because of the noise outside, but that's awesome. I mean, those stories are pretty amazing. I mean, really, [00:09:00] really like shockingly amazing. And a couple of things came to mind as you were talking about it. And I love the fact that you were saying about really approaching a person that To make them more vital, like to really improve their overall wellbeing.

  [00:09:16] And rather than just focusing on disease, you're really focusing on their health and seeing them in almost a positive light. And it is actually, we don't really notice this, but it is actually a perspective. of many healthcare professionals or like older types of healthcare, like not older, um, I guess more like conventional.

  [00:09:38] Sometimes they'll focus more on the symptoms and we always say like root cause versus symptoms rather than just focusing on treating disease. It's like treating health and really kind of a more positive way to approach the journey.

  [00:09:54] Gabriela Rosa: You know, what's interesting is that, you know, we see these days that [00:10:00] fertility, and I say fertility rather than infertility. Fertility is highly medicalized, right? So it's, it's about finding the problem and treating a problem as if The ovaries and the testicles, i. e. the egg and the sperm, were the only parts that make this process happen.

  [00:10:23] And we know that it's not. And, you know, what's interesting about it, and I think that, you know, to speak to what you're talking about, the issues here are so much greater than where we find ourselves, because it's a, it's a healthcare system problem. The reality of it is that when it comes to prevention, typically public health is focused on prevention and the healthcare system is focused on the treatment of disease.

  [00:10:50] And we see that when it comes to fertility a lot and what ends up happening as a result of it is that It really is just [00:11:00] focusing on like, it's almost like, you know, you've got a sore finger. Okay, let's chop that off and fix that problem. Hopefully you don't get to chop it off, but you know, that's typically how it, how it's approached.

  [00:11:11] And so what ends up happening is that the entire context of the human being that is meant to produce the result of, which really fertility is a, is an outcome. But it's also a retrospective outcome. You know that it's you're holding a baby once you are, like whatever happens before that moment happens is essentially a part of what is going to lead to whatever outcome you have.

  [00:11:39] And so I always talk about it from this perspective. If you are experiencing Challenges in terms of getting pregnant, keeping a healthy pregnancy to term, these are end results of many biochemical chain reactions that start all the way, you know, way before the result is meant to occur. What IVF tries to do is [00:12:00] immediately work from like the immediate part that you can see, i.

  [00:12:03] e. egg and sperm. But the reality of it is that there's only so much leverage when it's not very much that you can get from only trying to address those cells, as opposed to all of the biochemical pathways that are leading to the creation of the cells in the way that they are. And that's part of why IVF in its, on its own, often fails, because one, it's not looking and addressing What are the reasons as to why we need IVF to begin with?

  [00:12:31] And what is it that we need to do to improve the chances of conception occurring, whether it's via natural conception or via IVF? I also want to really kind of underline and highlight the point, the point that whether we're talking about any kind of reproductive challenge, whether we're talking about infertility or miscarriage or failed IVF treatments, It's almost like those are clues.

  [00:12:57] They're not results. They're not the outcome because the [00:13:00] outcome of reproduction is a baby. So if we're having failures in that process that are leading us to not hold our baby, it tells us that, okay, the clues that we have are the symptoms that we're experiencing. Infertility, miscarriage, failed treatments.

  [00:13:18] Those are symptoms. Right, really to a large extent. And what that means is that we need to treat them as such, because if we don't address the red flags that are infertility on its own, miscarriages on its own, and failed treatments on its own, because failed treatments is relevant here, because the moment that you have an egg and a sperm together, you have an embryo. You have a baby right in that moment. You have a baby when you transfer an embryo for a for treatment, you are pregnant at the time of transfer. No matter what you are pregnant. So if [00:14:00] you don't see a positive pregnancy test. That tells us that implantation has failed and that tells us that, okay, there's something there that we need to address.

  [00:14:10] Why is it failing? Most doctors, most providers don't care about it. They literally just say, oh, you know, it's a like, it's a numbers game. It's the luck of the draw. Just keep trying. Everything is normal. Just keep trying. When I hear that, literally, this is why I have so much gray hair. Because when

  [00:14:27] Michelle Oravitz: But you have beautiful skin.

  [00:14:31] Gabriela Rosa: when I hear that, I just go, Oh my God, like, how can we keep believing this lie that everything is normal, just keep trying whilst we're having very clear symptoms, infertility, miscarriage, failed treatment, that things aren't quite right.

  [00:14:45] What we also know about these symptoms, and I like to call them symptoms because really, That is what they are. They're telling us that there is some imbalance within the system that often left unaddressed will lead. [00:15:00] It's not may lead. It is will lead to other health conditions being developed in the long term.

  [00:15:06] And we know that being studies about this that show that. For people who have an infertility diagnosis and just bypass it with any other kind of treatment rather than addressing IVF etc, rather than addressing the issue, what happens is that the risk and the rate of all cause mortality in the future is higher.

  [00:15:32] So people who are diagnosed with infertility who don't treat it. actually die from all other causes, cancer, cardiovascular disease, diabetes, at a higher rate than people who actually address their problems. And this was demonstrated to happen and be true for females and for males. So literally, if you're not addressing infertility as a symptom, you are digging [00:16:00] yourself a hole sooner and at a younger age than you otherwise would want to.

  [00:16:04] Now, I know that this is unpopular and most people are going to feel very confronted by hearing something like this, but the reality is that, sure, you can go and bypass infertility and the symptoms of infertility and go into IVF and get a baby. But are you going to have the quality of life and the ability to be here to raise that child in the long term?

  [00:16:26] That's a very important question that people need to ask themselves before they simply just jump onto, you know, overcoming the issue with a band aid and just fixing it as opposed to actually truly addressing the root cause of the problem and finding what is the problem. You know, because there are things, for example, if you have antiphospholipid syndrome, which increases the risk of miscarriage, that's also a marker for cardiovascular disease in the long term.

  [00:16:57] So you're literally like, if you are [00:17:00] ignoring it for, and just take heparin, take whatever to be able to actually take home a baby and not really addressing the underlying concerns that your body is telling you than a present. Well, You are certainly increasing your risk of cardiovascular disease in the future.

  [00:17:16] And like that, there are many other examples. I'll give you an example of insulin resistance. You know, like I was diagnosed with PCOS when I was 18, I had to really understand how to take care of my body in the best possible way to have regular cycles, despite being told by a medical doctor that. I probably would never have Children.

  [00:17:35] I was able to conceive two babies twice, literally one and two kind of attempts later by understanding what it is that I needed to do in a holistic way for my body. Now, had I not done that and just jump bypassed the problem with taking metformin, not that I'm saying it can't be a part of the solution, but it can't be the whole solution, right?

  [00:17:56] I would have probably at this stage in my life right now. [00:18:00] Have pre-diabetes or have already have diabetes because we know that insulin resistance leads to pre-diabetes, which leads to the development of diabetes and that women with PCOS have and are at highest risk. Now by me ignoring my insulin resistance, yes, I'm increasing the risk of implantation failure.

  [00:18:20] infertility and diabetes in the long term. And like I said, if I don't address that at the, at the point in the time that it matters to overcome fertility concerns and fertility challenges, I am choosing diabetes in the long term. So, and we know that one of the biggest killers in the world these days is diabetes, cardiovascular disease, and cancer.

  [00:18:43] And there are many cancers that are associated with the insulin resistance condition, resistance conditions and pre diabetes. So again, you know, I already have a family history of cardiovascular disease, diabetes, and cancer. Do I want to add to that? No, thank you.[00:19:00]

  [00:19:00] Michelle Oravitz: Yeah. I mean, wow. You know, this is such an important topic that you're bringing up and it's something that I don't even think has really been brought up to this level on my podcast and I've been doing this since 2018. I mean, yes, we've, I've talked about how, like I've had people on and say almost like going through the fertility journey saved my life.

  [00:19:21] I mean, so yes, people have acknowledged it, but to this detail that you're mentioning, I think it's just so important for people to hear. And I think it is important. It's one of those painful truths. It's something I apologize about the noise behind me, but, but it is, it's one of those painful truths. And I think it's important for people to face it and acknowledge it because ultimately you can ignore it, but it's going to come back.

  [00:19:48] It's not like ignoring it makes it go away.

  [00:19:50] Gabriela Rosa: exactly. And I think that that is, you know, if, if people take nothing else out of this conversation today, I think what's important is to understand that you [00:20:00] cannot bypass infertility and still be healthy in the longterm. You have to work with your body to understand why is it giving you these symptoms?

  [00:20:08] What is it that you can do about it? Not just hearing a doctor say, Oh, everything is normal. Just keep trying. And yet having completely either it. Out of range or out of optimal range test results and continue to think that, well, IVF must be the next solution because it is not. IVF can be part of a solution and it's a wonderful part of the solution for couples who really, truly need it.

  [00:20:33] And truly, it was developed for women. with tubal factor infertility. So people who had blocked fallopian tubes for some reason, it wasn't developed for the variety of fertility concerns or issues and, um, causes that we have today. So we can't just expect that we are going to bypass the problem and are going to have absolutely no negative [00:21:00] effect in the long term.

  [00:21:01] And I think that that's a really important thing for people to understand is that. Yes, you might use it as a way to support a process, but not without addressing, and certainly not by ignoring what's causing it to be needed to begin with. I think that one of the biggest things, and for me this is, you know, something that I'm exceptionally passionate about, is helping people get answers.

  [00:21:28] you know, we even have a full free program that we give to people. That is a four week program. It's called the fertility challenge. It's completely free. It's literally worth thousands of dollars. And what it does is it helps people to understand, okay, let's understand the diagnosis. For you. Let's understand what are the things that are not working in the way that it needs to and how to change that.

  [00:21:53] You know, the objective really is to get answers, get clarity, to be able to personalize the [00:22:00] implementation of whatever it is that you need to do so you can conceive however it is that you're going to conceive and finally hold the baby. Not continuing to go out and around in circles until you run out of time completely, because that is sadly what happens to so many women, so many couples, they try, and I talk to them all the time, and it's heartbreaking, you know, people who have been trying for 10 years to have a baby and feel like, gosh, I'm at the end of my rope, I need to figure out how else I can do this, or I'm really come to terms with never having a baby, you know, like this is the decision and the place that so many of the patients who come to Mirat and I so hope and wish that people can actually have this clarity, have these epiphanies way before they are at that stage.

  [00:22:47] stage where they literally have their back in a corner and there's nowhere else to move. So those are important things for me. I think that it's, you know, getting clarity and getting answers is the number [00:23:00] one thing that's actually going to enable you to implement the right strategy in terms of treatment because you can line up.

  [00:23:09] 10 men with poor sperm morphology. And you can have 10 reasons as to why that sperm morphology is problematic in all of those different men. Right? So it's not one It's size fits all. Exactly. I didn't know for somebody, let's say that they have heavy exposures to like, I've had farmers in my program, you know, heavy exposures to heavy metals and, and heat and, you know, all sorts of things.

  [00:23:34] And then I've got doctors, heavy exposure to radiation and so on. So, you know, it's, it's one of those things that you really have to understand the context specific need for the patient to be able to properly and effectively address it. Otherwise you're literally just trialing and erroring until.

  [00:23:53] Unfortunately, many people run out of time altogether. 100%.

  [00:23:58] Michelle Oravitz: I mean, I think that [00:24:00] the biggest problem is that people just don't even know what they don't know. So they go to doctors and then, I mean, I was one of them and people know this, you know, my listeners know this. I've been on the birth control pill and that was like my solution to irregular periods and it was just like, take this.

  [00:24:16] And this is the only thing you can do. And apart from this, there's nothing you can do. And that's, um, you know, such a straight statement and such a definitive statement. Statement that I don't know better. So I just believe it. And then until years later, I find different modality and realize, Oh no, there is something I can do.

  [00:24:34] So like

  [00:24:34] Gabriela Rosa: There's lots.

  [00:24:35] Michelle Oravitz: I didn't know. I did not know what I didn't know until I knew. And so this is why I love having people like you on here, bringing light to this because people need to hear this. Cause I think it's going to start to like light up something in their minds. It's like, Oh, wow, this is something that I can really.

  [00:24:53] Look into that's number one is people don't know what they don't know. But also number two is that they don't even know they can [00:25:00] do anything about it. Then there's a lot of things that you could do about it. And you know, there's so many people say like, Oh, there's nothing you can do. There's no cure. And a cure is kind of like a, you know, very definitive word, but treatment.

  [00:25:14] I mean, there's things that you can do that actually can impact it. It's Absolutely. that is not something that is in the conventional world.

  [00:25:23] Gabriela Rosa: Yeah. And you know what else is interesting, and I think that this is, this is important for people to understand as well, because it's, it's a, it's a bugmare of mine, um, which is when people go to their doctor and the doctor runs some tests and then they go back for results and they literally are told, Oh, we've done all the tests.

  [00:25:43] And everything is normal. Now, let's peel this back and let's explain what all the tests actually means because all the tests does not mean all of the tests, okay? And everything is normal definitely doesn't mean that if you're still not holding a baby. And let me explain what that, what I mean by that.[00:26:00]

  [00:26:00] When it comes to the fertility guidelines around the world, which is what doctors will most of the time will be following guidelines because they don't want to be seen as being stupid amongst their peers. Okay, so what happens with this? A doctor will typically refuse to prescribe or request a test result unless they feel validated in doing so.

  [00:26:24] Okay. And the reason for that, and I've had this conversation with doctors, my own providers, as well as colleagues who tell me this, they say, I can't ask for this test because it's not going to be either approved by insurance, or I'm going to be criticized for requesting this test to which I reply. Well.

  [00:26:45] What is currently in the guidelines when it comes to fertility diagnosis is that you check for patency in the fallopian tubes, so are the fallopian tubes clear, and usually that's tested these days, uh, it used to be an [00:27:00] HSG, these days it's by Hycose, ultrasound with fluid in the tubes and, you know, dye spilling, spilling through if the tubes are clear.

  [00:27:10] The other test that is done is typically your kind of general FSH, LH, estrogen, progesterone. Progesterone typically recommended on day 21 of the cycle, which also is not necessarily the right thing because some women have irregular cycles and lengthened cycles and irregular ovulation. So really progesterone should be occurring seven days post ovulation and not at day 21 of the cycle, particularly if a woman has lengthened cycles or shortened.

  [00:27:38] cycles. It doesn't mean that a woman is not ovulating in those two instances. It just means that pinpointing ovulation becomes more difficult. And that is pretty much, and then of course, sperm parameters. Most people that come to me, believe it or not, despite years of infertility, have not had a semen analysis done.

  [00:27:56] or don't have a recent semen [00:28:00] analysis that really understands what's going on with sperm right now because sperm changes literally every four months. And so you can have the flu and end up with zero sperm. It actually can happen. And you know, that doesn't mean that that person is azoospermic forever and always, it just means that they've had a severe infection that has wiped out their for a sperm cycle or for a period of time.

  [00:28:24] So Understanding that the major things, and some doctors are more thorough and some doctors will prescribe or refer, recommend further tests, but as a bare minimum, they're looking for hormonal balance, looking for ovulation and looking for tubal patiency and sperm parameters. So those are four things.

  [00:28:43] Out of literally thousands of tests that could be done and that needs to be looked at. And of course, needs to be personalized because testing is also expensive and you don't want to be wasting time doing tests for no reason. So, you know, there is a balance to that. [00:29:00] But it's not enough to have four tests and not really exactly know what it is that's being tested.

  [00:29:05] And your doctor tell you, Oh, you know, we've done all the tests and everything is normal because very little is going to be picked up unless there is some serious major issue. Very little is going to be picked up by those four, you know, four things being tested or four areas being tested. What's going to happen is that you may end up with some clues about what else needs to be tested, but Typically, it's going to be insufficient to gain a proper diagnosis.

  [00:29:34] So what happened, you know, to which what happens from there is that people get diagnosed with unexplained infertility. And hence why unexplained infertility is the major, the biggest category of infertility diagnosis, because more tests have not been done. Now, typically, and this is when

  [00:29:53] Michelle Oravitz: That, I mean, that is such a good statement. Keep going. Sorry.

  [00:29:59] Gabriela Rosa: the thing [00:30:00] about it is that it's, that's what we're talking about conception and conception attempt failures, which IE infertility is what, how it's labeled.

  [00:30:08] But when we're talking about miscarriages or implantation failure, it's even worse. Because, guess what? The healthcare system expects that a woman has to have at least three miscarriages before testing is done. Now, really? I mean, I don't know, for anybody who has ever had one miscarriage, it's traumatizing enough.

  [00:30:29] Waiting to have three before you actually do any further testing, to me, is pretty extreme. That's why, you know. It's unacceptable. It's, as a woman, I think it's just like, it's ridiculous, right? Now, the other thing then that happens is failed IVF treatment. You end up with an embryo. Most people who go into IVF, and it's not everyone, but most people will end up with at least one embryo, and there will be a decision to transfer said embryo.

  [00:30:56] If it doesn't work, and of course, if the cycle [00:31:00] gets cancelled for any other reason before we get to that stage, or even then. after getting an embryo, i. e. embryo doesn't develop, you know, doesn't, you know, there's no blastocysts to transfer, whatever it is. Every single one of those points of failure, so to speak, needs to be questioned and needs to be specifically tested and addressed because otherwise, again, you can end up with the same problem.

  [00:31:25] Now, In the case of IVF, it's more problematic because it's also extremely costly. In the United States, an average IVF cycle costs about 17, 000 U. S. dollars. And around the world, you know, the price varies. But let's just go with the United States data. And we look at an average cost of 17, 000. That is whether you get to transfer or not.

  [00:31:49] you are paying that money.

  [00:31:51] Whether you have an embryo or not,

  [00:31:53] you are paying that money. So the thing about it that I questioned is like, okay, and there are published [00:32:00] studies that show that in order to have a close to 80 percent live birth rate, cumulative rate for IVF, i. e. having a baby, close to 80 percent cumulative rate of chance of having a baby, you have to have eight IVF cycles.

  [00:32:16] That's the average. Now imagine, imagine eight times seventeen thousand dollars, I mean for some people that's a house.

  [00:32:25] Michelle Oravitz: Yeah.

  [00:32:25] Gabriela Rosa: Right. So no wonder people can't afford to go and do IVF. No wonder there are so many challenges. But even if you can afford it, would you rather do something else first to understand what is the cause and address that before going and doing another cycle?

  [00:32:41] You know, we have so many patients who come to us after failed cycles and go, look, I want to prepare to have another better cycle. Typically, those people end up conceiving naturally. They didn't even need IVF to begin with. And when they do, they end up having one or two maximum cycles afterwards, once you understand what the problem is.

  [00:32:59] [00:33:00] So again, hence the critical importance of understanding what is the problem you are dealing with, rather than just expecting that you are going to be okay with some unexplained diagnosis. for your expertise.

  [00:33:14] Michelle Oravitz: So walk us through, like, if you have certain cases, like the ones that you were mentioning, that are really, really complex and many, many years of dealing with. really being on this journey, what are some of the steps you would take? You had mentioned doing testing and functional testing also just for people listening, if you don't know about it, is a lot more in depth and detailed than what you'll typically get when you go to the doctor's office.

  [00:33:42] Gabriela Rosa: Yeah, no, I agree with that. And look, the testing piece, it's almost, it's a science and an art, right? Because it's almost like you need to balance. various things when requesting a test, you have to balance what is the return on the knowledge that you're going to gain? [00:34:00] What's the time spent? What is the money spent?

  [00:34:02] What are the things that are actually going to give you a lot to be able to do about it versus not very much for a very expensive test? So there's, so for me personally, and certainly, you know, in the first time method, what we use in the pro in our programs, really, what we're looking at is we kind of go back to the drawing board, we collect all the data.

  [00:34:22] We really look at everything that the patient brings from their lived experience, whether it's test results, other things that they've done, whatever it is, we collect and analyze all of that information to really first understand, okay, what has been done? Where are the gaps? Where are the places of opportunity?

  [00:34:38] What are the things that. we need action that is absolutely urgent. And one of the things that we don't actually need to address because there will be addressed as part of addressing the, you know, some of the basic major root issues, root causes. So it's understanding that nuance that actually ends up being able [00:35:00] to direct a path, particularly in those cases that we treat that are very difficult and complex because you can do a thousand tests.

  [00:35:08] You know, there's thousands of tests that you can actually do. Will you do them? No, no. So then we have to really be able to identify, okay, what are the red flags that if we were to understand more about them? Or where the gaps that if we don't know is going to change the direction of our, say, of our choices, then we're starting to look at those things, you know, in cost effectiveness, cost effectiveness analysis, which is a big field of science, really, the idea is this, if you are going to treat anyway, don't test.

  [00:35:48] Right. So for example, and there are pros and cons to this, but you know, there are certain things that you're going to treat anyway. So is there a need to test it? Sometimes there is. [00:36:00] But sometimes there really isn't and that's the thing that we really need to kind of balance in the whole scheme of things is the things that are going to be absolutely essential and the things that are not really going to be that important.

  [00:36:14] Michelle Oravitz: And what were some of the protocols or what are the types of ways that you treat people or. What is included in the protocols?

  [00:36:24] Gabriela Rosa: It's depends because it's very personalized, you know, so we will use a blend of medical. treatments and even medical diagnostics, of course. And we then are going to utilize the best of all of the worlds that we have access to, whether it's naturopathic medicine, integrative medicine, traditional Chinese medicine, lifestyle medicine.

  [00:36:44] So we then are putting together a very personalized process. That is going to help that individual that is part of that couple. Because like I said, you know, you have 10 different men, you have 10 different reasons. Therefore, we need to [00:37:00] understand what is the reason here and what do we then make as recommendations.

  [00:37:04] My biggest focus always is minimum effective dose. I want to do the least possible to get the biggest resolved. Right. That is my focus. So I'm always assessing and addressing the case from that lens of like, okay, what do I need to touch? What do I have to leave alone? Because there are certain things that, you know, for example, I'll give you an example of heavy metal toxicity.

  [00:37:26] Heavy metal toxicity is a really tricky one. In some cases, it will increase the risk of miscarriage. Like, hugely. I had patient once who basically had 40 times the, uh, elevated rate of what's kind of acceptable in a human. And essentially had had 8 miscarriages as a result, was coming to me to figure out, okay, why am I having miscarriage after miscarriage, even though I'm getting pregnant, she was only 30.

  [00:37:51] So we went on to identify that she had really high level of mercury toxicity, which was causing these miscarriages. And there were other [00:38:00] factors too. So we addressed all of it and we had to make a decision in her situation to actually go for medical chelation therapy. Because what ended up happening for her with that high level is that she was going to continue miscarrying.

  [00:38:13] And we also knew that chelation therapy would take a long time because it doesn't work quickly. It took us 12 months of treating her, doing chelation, doing retesting, more chelation, more retesting to actually get to a point where she could start trying to conceive again. So it's not everybody has that kind of time, which means that we might find high heavy metals in a person and have to leave it alone because literally we have two years until this is all over, right?

  [00:38:43] So it just depends on the situation and we have to make those critical clinical decisions that are going to really help the outcome that we are looking for. So it's highly personalized. So it's not. I don't have, we have a framework that we make sure that we don't leave things to chance, that we really are, you know, checking off [00:39:00] every box, but we don't have a, this is the only way that we do this because we have to ask and answer questions and address and adapt accordingly.

  [00:39:10] Michelle Oravitz: So I guess, um, my question wasn't specifically like a protocol that's customized, like for all, cause I get it. We do the same thing, but do you use, um, what kind of tools do you use

  [00:39:21] Gabriela Rosa: Oh, we use all sorts of things from, yeah, from drug therapy to herbal medicines, to nutritional supplementation, to exercise, to sleep, to diet, like, All of the things, you know, so in terms of what it is that we're going to use, we're going to use whatever it is that we need to use. You know, sometimes we find infections that we're not going to waste time trying to use.

  [00:39:42] I was just going to go straight to antibiotics. You know, because that's just the thing that's

  [00:39:47] going to give us the result the fastest. So, again, even the treatment part is going to be very, I guess, personalized to whatever it is that that person needs, because at the end of [00:40:00] the day, I want speed.

  [00:40:01] I want speed and I want effectiveness.

  [00:40:03] So it's, it's balancing all of those worlds.

  [00:40:07] Michelle Oravitz: definitely have a unique perspective though, in a sense that you use tools that are conventional and, um, a little bit more alternative and holistic. So it is a really great combination because you can get amazing results with both. Yeah.

  [00:40:25] Gabriela Rosa: way that I see it is like, we really do want to blend the best of both worlds. We don't want to say, Oh no, this is not something that we use. I'm not. Look, honestly, I am not, um, I'm not a purist. I'm not a purist, you know, like, I don't think that there's only one way to do things.

  [00:40:42] I think I always am looking for what is the best way to do something, you know, what's going to get us the outcome that we're looking for, balancing all of the constraints and challenges and situations that we have in front of us. So, but how? And I always say to my patients, I'm completely impartial as to [00:41:00] how you get pregnant.

  [00:41:00] I don't care if we have to use IUI, IVF, you know, like I don't care donor egg. That's not the thing. The thing is, if my patient comes to me and says, look, I'm, I want a baby no matter what. we are going to explore every, every opportunity to be able to do that. Then I also have some patients who come to me and say, I will only try natural conception.

  [00:41:21] I'm like, okay, cool. Let's explore and make sure that we maximize that opportunity. You know, what are the things that we need to do? But it's, it's, it's values and preferences of the patient that will determine where we go and what recommendations we will make.

  [00:41:39] Michelle Oravitz: Yeah. I love that. I mean, I think that that ultimately just shows that you're present with your patient because that is ultimately what it is. It's not a one size fits all because then it's something that you pre craft and just give out. But when you're present with a patient, you're able to really assess what you have in front of you specifically.

  [00:41:58] One topic that I did [00:42:00] want to actually ask you about, you know, to get your thoughts, A lot of times people will come in with like, What they say, quote unquote, low AMH, which as we know, sometimes fluctuates in itself, but people get really hung up on it because in response to how their doctors get really hung up on it, and I've seen this my, in my own office is that it really doesn't make as much of.

  [00:42:25] Um, I guess the challenge is people think it does. I've seen people with very low numbers that were told that they needed egg donor conceive naturally like multiple times after that. So I just wanted to get your thoughts on that.

  [00:42:38] Gabriela Rosa: Yeah, absolutely. It's a great question. And look, you know, what happens is that AMH levels, which measures the ovarian reserve, it's measuring the hormones that are excreted by the eggs themselves, right? And so the more of AMH you have, the more eggs you're likely to have, the less AMH, the less eggs you're likely to have.

  [00:42:56] Yeah. Does it mean that if you have low AMH that you [00:43:00] can't conceive naturally and what is the best way to conceive? Well, actually, all the science shows that if you have low AMH, typically the best option for conception is actually natural conception or IUI. As opposed to IVF. Most, and this is why most women with lower MH go to their doctors and they refuse to do IVF cycles if they are good doctors.

  [00:43:23] If they just want to take their money, they might not be that kind of doctor. Right? And so the reality of it is that Low MH in itself does not preclude a woman from conceiving with her own eggs naturally. I see the same thing in my clinic. In fact, our study, our Harvard study shows that even in the very low MH category, the less than one, the one to four is low, less than one is very low.

  [00:43:47] We had the majority of patients conceive by natural conception in that category group. So very possible, very doable. However, it's not as easy as it used [00:44:00] to be. Thank you. Right. When a woman had higher AMH, and this is also part of the reason why you need to make sure that you're addressing the full context of the patient, because a woman's ovarian reserve is just going to, it's going to decline at the time, no matter what.

  [00:44:15] And if you're treating the wrong problem, i. e. let's say, for example, we have very poor sperm quantity, quality, you know, all of those things. And you are continually treating the woman because she has low ovarian reserve. Well, you're actually leaving a lot on the table because she probably with a better sperm partner would actually have already conceived.

  [00:44:40] And so it's about understanding, again, this is where I always say fertility is a team sport. And I say that for a reason. You can't expect that a woman with lower age is going to conceive with crappy sperm. If you have a lower age, what you need is superhero sperm, right? And so it's, and [00:45:00] men's sperm quality decreases over time as women's fertility decreases over time.

  [00:45:05] So it's a, it's a matter of understanding. What it means, like, for example, if you have just low AMH and your FSH is normal on day two, then you have a much better chance of conceiving and taking home a healthy baby, whether it's naturally or any other way, than a woman who has low AMH and high FSH.

  [00:45:25] Because then, if you're having high FSH, it's telling you that already on day two, your ovaries are already struggling to release the eggs that are remaining. So that tells me that, again, IVF is definitely not the best option, and you need to figure out, okay, what else is there that you can, what are the levers that you can pull, because probably egg quality is not going to be enough.

  [00:45:51] Right? And so then you have to address and adjust treatment accordingly. But just as a full answer to your question, just as a, as a very big [00:46:00] summary, Lower MH does not mean that you can't conceive. It does signal the onset of perimenopause. Typically ovarian reserve lowers quite significantly five to ten years before menopause, and particularly for women who smoke, that happens even five years before women who don't smoke.

  [00:46:21] So it's certainly if you, if you are trying to get pregnant and you smoke, well, you better stop. Right now, because you are definitely almost kind of poisoning your chances of taking a healthy pregnancy to term at any point, like you're literally certainly decreasing your chances by at least five years compared to non smoking counterparts.

  [00:46:45] And if your partner smokes secondary, you know, kind of smoke is also going to be a problem. So, and of course, that's going to be a problem for sperm. So there's all of those, those contexts as well that we have to take into account. But yeah, it's, it doesn't [00:47:00] necessarily translate that low AMH means no baby or low AMH means that it must be a donor egg situation.

  [00:47:06] We had patients, and again, this is in our analysis, the majority of patients who had low AMH were told that they needed to have donor egg. We, in the entire sample of 544 patients, we only had 5. 6%. actually need donor egg. So, and the majority were consuming naturally. So, you know, I take that with a very large grain of salt.

  [00:47:29] Michelle Oravitz: Yeah. And this is why you have to get many multiple opinions and really do your research and find the right practitioner. Maybe a couple of different practitioners. Um, but I love your approach and I think that a lot of what you're saying, um, first of all, it makes a lot of sense, but it's also, is research based and empowering for people listening.

  [00:47:54] And so for people listening who are interested or want to learn more about your work, [00:48:00] what are the things that you offer online, like

  [00:48:03] Gabriela Rosa: Yeah. So

  [00:48:04] Michelle Oravitz: far away,

  [00:48:05] Gabriela Rosa: they can go to my website, which is fertilitybreakthrough. com and they can also search my name, which is Gabriella Rosa, G A B R I E L A R O S A. Um, they will find, I have my book, Fertility Breakthrough, Overcoming Infertility and Recurrent Miscarriage When Other Treatments Have Failed free on YouTube and Spotify.

  [00:48:25] So they'll be able to get the audio version there. It's also available on Amazon and every other bookseller. And of course, as I mentioned earlier, you know, we have the free fertility challenge program that is designed for couples who want to overcome infertility and miscarriage, and most importantly, want to find answers, you know, and want to know what it is that they need to do and how to personalize their journey so that they can hold their baby sooner,

  [00:48:48] Michelle Oravitz: amazing, and you work one on one as well, right?

  [00:48:51] Gabriela Rosa: our team does absolutely. So, yes.

  [00:48:54] Michelle Oravitz: amazing, Gabriella, this is an amazing conversation. I've seen you [00:49:00] around before. I've looked at your information before we spoke and I was very impressed and this exceeded my expectations. So thank you so much for coming on.

  [00:49:10] Gabriela Rosa: Thank you. Thank you for having me. It's a real pleasure.

  [00:49:13]

EP 326 How Stress Impacts Fertility and What You Can Do About It

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, I am joined by the incredible Dr. Alice Domar, a pioneer in the field of mind-body medicine and a leader in reproductive health psychology. Dr. Domar shares insights from her decades of research and work with patients experiencing infertility, diving deep into the emotional and physical toll of fertility challenges and how stress can impact reproductive outcomes.

We discuss the groundbreaking research that links stress reduction to increased fertility success rates, the importance of patient-centered care, and how mind-body practices can transform the fertility journey. Dr. Domar also shares her thoughts on spirituality, the power of connection, and how fostering a sense of belonging can help patients navigate the emotional rollercoaster of infertility. This episode is packed with valuable insights and hope for anyone on the fertility journey.

Be sure to tune in as you won’t want to miss this eye-opening and inspiring conversation!
 

Guest Bio:

 Alice “Ali” Domar, Ph.D. is a pioneer in mind-body medicine, focusing on the relationship between stress, medical conditions, and lifestyle habits. She is Chief Compassion Officer at Inception Fertility, part-time associate professor at Harvard Medical School, and senior staff psychologist at Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center. Dr. Domar is the author of Conquering Infertility and Finding Calm for the Expectant Mom and serves on advisory boards for Parents Magazine, Resolve, and Easy Eats. Her work has been featured in Redbook, Health, and BeWell.com.
 

Websites/Social Media Links:

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/inceptionfertility/

Website: https://inceptionfertility.com/about-us/our-team/

Website: https://www.preludefertility.com/

For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Check out Michelle’s Latest Book: The Way of Fertility!

https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

• Transcript

  [00:00:00] Michelle: Episode number 326 of the Wholesome Fertility Podcast. My guest today is Dr. Alice Domar. Dr. Domar is a pioneer in the field of mind body medicine. She conducts ongoing groundbreaking research, which focuses on the relationship between stress and various medical conditions, as well as the impact of lifestyle habits on mental and physical health.

  [00:00:26] She 2022 as chief compassion officer. She is also an associate professor in obstetrics, gynecology, and reproductive biology part time at Harvard Medical School and a senior staff psychologist at Beth Israel Deaconess Medical Center. Dr. Domar is the author of numerous books including Conquering Infertility and her latest book, Finding Calm for the Expectant Mom.

  [00:00:54] She's on the advisory board for Parents Magazine, Resolve, and Easy Eats. [00:01:00] She has been on the board of experts for Luminary and a columnist for Redbook and Health Magazines. She was also a featured expert on the online social network, BeWell. com.

  [00:01:11] 

  [00:01:32] Michelle: /Welcome back to the podcast, Dr. Domar. I am so excited to have you back.

  [00:01:38] Alice: I hear That just made my day, thank you.

  [00:01:42] Michelle: Well, I really enjoyed our first talk and it was a while ago, but for people listening and haven't heard of you, which I think is actually very few, because I think a lot of people, most people that I talk to know who you are. but I would love for you to share your background and how you got into such [00:02:00] an important aspect of the work of the fertility journey.

  [00:02:04] Alice: So it started with my parents, actually. So it took my parents, I think, seven years to get pregnant with my older sister and another five years to get pregnant with me. And there was almost nothing available in those days. I mean, literally my mom said that she had to go once a month to have air blown up her tubes, which just sounds disgusting.

  [00:02:23] Anyway. So while I was growing up, she talked about it. How lonely she was. I mean, this was, you know, in the fifties and sixties when everybody was having five or six kids and how awful a period of her life it was. And so that just sort of permeated into my soul. And when I got a PhD in health psychology and I, I sort of, my focus was OBGYN and it just felt very natural.

  [00:02:48] to go into the infertility field. And, you know, I have done a lot of research and it was funny because I just saw an interview was just published in Slate a couple of days ago, talking about one of the [00:03:00] first studies I did that showed that women with infertility had the same levels of anxiety and depression as women with cancer, AIDS, or heart disease.

  [00:03:08] And people are still talking about that study and it was published in the New York Times. easily 25 years ago. And we, you know, and there's since been other research, which backs that up. Like, in fact, you know, you and I were just chatting about the pandemic. I was part of a study that, you know, Boston got hit really hard because there was a Biogen conference, must have been in early March, of international Employees and one of the employees was from China and infected all 70 people who was at that conference and it turned out that 300, 000 people ended up getting COVID from that one person.

  [00:03:44] So Boston was hit very hard. Yeah, it was terrible. And the board of health shut down all the IVF programs. And so our patients were frantic. And so we thought, you know. Let's find out what's worse for our patients, infertility or the pandemic. And it was [00:04:00] infertility, which didn't surprise me at all because I've been working with infertility patients for almost 40 years, you know, it started out that I wanted to document how stressed our patients are, were, because. No one out there seems to get it, still, after 40 years. But I've also been trying my whole career, not only to figure out how stressed patients are, but also what are the best ways to relieve that stress.

  [00:04:29] And if you relieve that stress, the pregnancy rates go up.

  [00:04:32] So that's the whole bandwidth. And, you know, I took this new job two and a half years ago, which gives me the, Access and power to actually do the research and, change patient care the way I've always wanted to

  [00:04:46] Michelle: mean, I just love that so much because I think that a lot of us do, I think people in general or society and also the systems, like they don't really take things seriously until you present them with proof. [00:05:00] Facts and research. and the thing is, you obviously had a feeling or hunch that it was so before you did the research, which is what caused you to do research, which I personally think is also an important aspect of all of this.

  [00:05:13] But unfortunately we need the research. not unfortunate, fortunately, really to kind of make it more real

  [00:05:19] in 

  [00:05:20] Alice: make, to make, doctors and patients believe in the mind body connection, you know, because, you know, I spent 17 years working with her Benson and all his research was trying to prove a mind body connection. 

  [00:05:33] And I want to, 

  [00:05:33] Michelle: the mindfulness based, uh, stress reduction.

  [00:05:37] Alice: no, that was Jon Kabat Zinn.

  [00:05:39] Her, her Benson was, he was, he died a couple of years ago. He was famous for the relaxation response. And I think he's kind of, he and Joan Borisenko sort of started the field of behavioral medicine. and anyway, I, I worked with them for 17 years and got fully entrenched in the whole mind body connection, not just in women's health, but in heart disease and cancer [00:06:00] and AIDS and pretty much everything, Any disease that's made worse by stress can be made better by different mind body strategies. So I just happen to want to focus on women's health, and again, when I think back, my mom said that when she was trying to get pregnant for the first time, they put her on the equivalent of Valium, and she got pregnant. So, clearly, I've had a bias, you know, my entire life that stress impacts fertility.

  [00:06:28] Michelle: That's incredible. You know, it's interesting. My mom also, suffered with secondary infertility with me. So I always say I'm kind of like the proof that a woman knew in her heart that she was supposed to conceive. And she told me she, every time I ask her, she goes. Every single time I got my period, I cried, she would just tell me these stories.

  [00:06:46] And it's like, as soon as I ask her, she's right back there, you know, remembering those moments just how fearful she was also throughout the pregnancy. And that's another thing. I know you wrote a book about that. And I think that that's kind of like a whole other chapter, which we'll [00:07:00] get to, you know, people's journeys really is that it doesn't necessarily end at the positive pregnancy stick.

  [00:07:06] So

  [00:07:07] Alice: it starts, it 

  [00:07:09] Michelle: yes, yes, 

  [00:07:10] Alice: You know, that's the surprise for my patients. I mean, I still have a small private practice, but, you know, for most infertility patients, they think all I need is a positive pregnancy test. But that's actually when the anxiety starts to really skyrocket.

  [00:07:25] Michelle: Yeah, I see that a lot with my patients. I do acupuncture, it's very similar. And of course, just going through everything with them and every single, I mean, I have not yet met anybody who doesn't feel stressed or anxious during the pregnancy. And that's why I always reiterate it to them. Like, you are not alone.

  [00:07:47] Like, I don't think I've met anybody that wasn't going through this. This is completely normal. And I, you know, it's just part of the process, but it's all about strategy. And I know you talked about just like tools and different things that you can do, but [00:08:00] before we even get to that, I would love for people to know, like, what is mind body, like, if you can really break it down, what are the components of mind body and like, what does it entail?

  [00:08:09] Alice: So basically there's no division between our brain and our body. And so our thoughts affect our body and our body affects our thoughts or emotions. And, you know, they're researchers and, every system of the body, I just happened to have focused on women's health. And so, for example, we know that stress makes PMS worse.

  [00:08:29] We know that stress makes menopause symptoms worse. We know I. believe that stress contributes to fertility issues. And so there's no division. I mean, there's, there's a constant communication between the brain and the body. And so to think that your thoughts and emotions and experiences and activities don't have an impact on your body is really naive.

  [00:08:54] And, you know, I have spent my whole career trying to prove that stress [00:09:00] decreases fertility and that stress reduction increases fertility. And there are a lot of people who think I'm nuts and make fun of me and criticize me. And, you know, when I used to go to the fertility meetings, People would shun me, but I can tell you lately, since I've now been doing research that's showing, yeah, actually there is a connection.

  [00:09:21] Now I get treated better.

  [00:09:23] Michelle: Well, it's crazy because you can actually explain it. I mean, like, the more I dug into it, the more you can explain it. I mean, Your nervous system, it really, a lot of it comes down to the nervous system. And the nervous system doesn't feel safe. It gets into fight or flight. It takes away the blood from the organs to the limbs.

  [00:09:40] And, and what does that do? It impacts also the blood that flows through the uterus and the ovaries. And so that's just one aspect of it. Then another thing is cortisol. Like when that increases, actually. It competes with progesterone, a very important hormone for pregnancy, for implantation, for uterine lining.

  [00:09:58] So there's so many [00:10:00] actually explanations and then it can impact sleep, which also impacts hormones. So it's just like one after the next, it was like, you can really break it down.

  [00:10:09] Alice: It's just, it's very hard to convince people because I think maybe not so much now, but 20 years ago, most physicians believed that the medication and the surgery and everything else they did could control all aspects of reproduction. And I remember. easily 25 years ago, a colleague and I were giving a talk to a group of infertility doctors about all the research, even then showing the impact of stress on the reproductive system and the impact of stress reduction on fertility rates.

  [00:10:42] And one of the physicians actually said, I don't care how many studies you show me. I do not believe That the brain is more powerful than what we do with medications and surgery.

  [00:10:52] Michelle: Hmm.

  [00:10:52] it's interesting how people take a stance.

  [00:10:55] Alice: and again, I think younger physicians, I mean, you know, I was a boss in IVF for 20 years and they had a [00:11:00] fellowship program and it was awesome for me because I got to have input on how they were trained and how they thought. And one of the fellows who's now a practicing infertility doctor actually did his big research study on the impact of.

  [00:11:18] empathy on how patients felt. So, you know, the more impact or input one can have on young physicians or physicians in training, the better it's going to be for patients. Because I presented a study in October at ASRM showing that what patients want, In terms of patient centered care is really quite different from what physicians want.

  [00:11:44] I mean, sorry, what different from a physician's think patients want.

  [00:11:49] Michelle: Right. sometimes they think that just cause here's the thing, there's this argument and I hear this a lot, like, well, I don't really need necessarily need a doctor that has bedside [00:12:00] manners. I just want someone who knows what they're doing and I don't care how they're treating me or talking or whatever.

  [00:12:05] And I'm not so much with fertility. I'm not, I'm saying this like a conversation with my cousin about like, you know, a gastroenterologist, 

  [00:12:13] things like that. Right. 

  [00:12:14] Yeah. But, talk to us about the research, first of all, like, cause I feel like it does make an impact actually, how they're treated.

  [00:12:23] Alice: So it's, it was a study funded by MD Serrano on patient centered care because all of the research out there was done in Europe and all over the world and had not a single study had ever been done in the U S. And. The study that I pay the most attention to, or had paid the most attention to, on patient centered care, where they compared patients and physicians, and this is, I think it was out of France, that it showed that patients prioritized patient centered care over pregnancy rates.

  [00:12:54] And they were willing to sacrifice a 10 percent drop in pregnancy rate for more patient centered [00:13:00] care. While physicians said, oh God, no. All patients care about is getting pregnant. And so I've literally bopped around the world for the last 10 years saying to physicians and practice managers and nurses, patients really want patient centered care.

  [00:13:15] Like this is really important that you care for patients. And yet our study of over a thousand patients. And I think we had 39 of our physicians, showed that patients want to get pregnant and physicians think. They want this compassionate care with nice environment, blah, blah. Now, apparently in the, in the US, at least, you know, amongst inception prelude clinics, which are all over the country, highest priority for our patients is, is pregnancy. So that's very different from Europe.

  [00:13:44] Michelle: yeah, here's my question though. I have heard, correct me if I'm wrong, or let me know if you've heard of this study. There was something that I heard about, but I haven't actually seen myself. It's kind of one of those hearsay, about [00:14:00] how people who have doctors who believe in their journey or have like a little bit more, you know, belief in them doing well, that can impact how they actually do.

  [00:14:10] So there's like kind of this positive or sort of belief in a person's ability to do well. Mm

  [00:14:16] Alice: Well, that would add to me, I haven't heard of that study, but it would add to my hypothesis that stress Decreases treatment outcomes and having a physician who believes in you and is encouraging and, and positive is going to make the patient less stressed and they're probably more optimistic as they go through a treatment cycle.

  [00:14:35] And I think that will help them get pregnant.

  [00:14:39] Michelle: No doubt. And I know that, there's also a study that was done on laughter and after transfers.

  [00:14:46] Alice: Oh, it was done out of Israel. It was a great study. It was, 

  [00:14:50] I think It was, 

  [00:14:51] it was, it was, they had, I think it was actually a randomized controlled trial and I thought it was awesome. But on alternate days, they had a clown in the recovery [00:15:00] room. So for women after transfer, you know, while they're waking up and recovering, they got to see a clown and their pregnancy rates were higher, significantly higher.

  [00:15:09] So 

  [00:15:09] Michelle: Wow. That's incredible. It's just amazing.

  [00:15:12] Alice: so many studies now. I mean, it's very difficult to do research to prove that stress impacts, for example, IVF outcome, because up until the study that I'm doing that we just finished, we're handing patients like paper and pencil questionnaires. Like how anxious are you? How depressed are you?

  [00:15:30] And there are a lot of factors that, that are going to influence that. You know, one is, you know, at what point did you measure their stress or anxiety? Was it three months before their cycle? Was it the day before egg retrieval? And that makes a difference. Also, patients tend to be very optimistic right before they start an IVF cycle because you have to be optimistic to put yourself through it.

  [00:15:52] In addition, Most patients, at least in the U. S., they know their prognosis. They know how old they are. Right now, they know what their [00:16:00] AMH level. Their physician has probably shown them on a computer what their chances are. And so, if you've got a 25 year old with blocked tubes, her physician's going to say, Wow, you are so likely to get pregnant.

  [00:16:12] And so she's going to start her cycle being Very optimistic, probably not depressed, not anxious. And if she gets pregnant, is it because she's 25 or because she wasn't anxious compared to a 44 year old whose AMH is barely detectable, whose physician is like, yeah, your chances are almost null. She's going to be very anxious and depressed.

  [00:16:31] So you, you can't use paper and pencil questionnaires because they're just too subjective. And patients also fake good because they want their physician to think they can cope with a cycle. And are they really going to report how incredibly depressed and anxious they are? So we're working with this company in Canada called Otto that makes this little device that for the study, actually, it was like a little circle thing.

  [00:16:56] They were on a, on a band around their waist for about three minutes every [00:17:00] morning. I think now they're converting it. I think it to a bracelet or a ring. So it'd be much easier for us to do research, but anyway, so we recruited 240 women who are about to start their first IBS cycle. And this device.

  [00:17:13] actually measures central nervous system and cardiovascular parameters. So for the first time, we're really getting true physiological feedback on patients stress levels. And we had them wear the band for a week before the first IVF cycle, for the two weeks of STEM, and for the four weeks of their frozen embryo transfer cycle.

  [00:17:35] So we have, and the, the, the device actually collects, I think, 54. different physiological measures of, of stress. And so we presented at, ASRM in October, just the first amount of results we had, which simply compared how the patients were at baseline. So the seven days before their IVF cycle compared to how [00:18:00] they were during the stimulation phase of the cycle.

  [00:18:02] And The results, I, I've been doing research for almost 40 years. I have never seen statistically significant levels like that. Like to be statistically significant, it has to be less than 0. 05 and our levels were like 0. 00001. So what that showed was going through the STEM phase. Like when patients are self injecting with gadadotropins is insanely stressful on the body.

  [00:18:30] And in fact, we had a number, we just act, we actually just had to notify a number of patients who developed cardiac arrhythmias during the STEM phase. Because they were so stressed. Yeah, that's how stressful and no one has really paid attention to how hard it is You know the physical and psychological burden of doing an IVF cycle.

  [00:18:52] So now we actually have Physiological proof. I

  [00:18:56] Michelle: That's incredible. You know, I've said this before. I've said this to my [00:19:00] patients. Cause like your body, you know, when you hear like really loud noises. Okay. Your mind knows, Oh, that's just the truck that's moving, you know, like the fire truck, but your body could still respond completely different, almost like a animalistic.

  [00:19:16] So if your body's constantly getting prodded and poked and, you know, Your body's gonna go under stress. It's gonna feel like what's going on. I don't feel safe. Something's off Yeah

  [00:19:28] Alice: it means total stimulation of the sympathetic nervous system

  [00:19:32] And so now we have all this data. We're actually we have a meeting tomorrow, to look at because there are 3 sets of data. 1 is the difference between baseline and stem. The 2nd, 1, the difference between. Baseline and STEM and IVF success rates.

  [00:19:50] And the third is, can their stress level at baseline predict outcome as well as things like age and [00:20:00] AMH and BMI? So we, we're going to, I have to write all these manuscripts in the next few months and I can't talk about the results yet, but it's going to be incredibly valuable data. And then we're starting our second study where we're going to do a randomized controlled trial where patients.

  [00:20:15] All the patients, sorry, half the patients get the device and the device, we can turn it in such a way that they get feedback as to how physiologically stressed they are. And it literally is like, you know, red, light, yellow, green. And then it gives them, if they're in the red or yellow zone, here are things you can do.

  [00:20:35] And it's like biofeedback. And so we'll see if we can reduce a patient's stress during her IVF cycle to pregnancy rates go up. And I'm guessing. The answer is yes, because all the psychological, I can't say all, the most recent meta analyses where you just sort of take data from a bunch of studies have consistently shown that [00:21:00] women who are randomized to some kind of psychological intervention have higher pregnancy rates. So how can you say stress doesn't play a role?

  [00:21:11] Michelle: no, it absolutely does have you heard of heart math

  [00:21:14] Alice: No.

  [00:21:16] Michelle: Oh, you would love this.

  [00:21:19] Oh my gosh, you would really, really love it. Okay. So HeartMath Institute is basically it's a, they, it's an organization that does research on the role and the relationship of the heart and the brain. And the heart actually has a much larger electromagnet.

  [00:21:38] Uh, frequency than the brain does. 

  [00:21:40] And there is such a thing as heart brain coherence and also the heart rate variability shows, I'm sure you've heard of that. It like shows just the heart health. Chinese medicine has been saying this for thousands of years that the heart houses the mind. And so, But you never really understood what that meant until now.

  [00:21:58] And they actually [00:22:00] have data and they have a biofeedback devices, which I highly recommend. I think that you would really, uh, find good use for this because what happens is that basically they put it on their ear and they connect it to an app and it will, record and measure their heart rate variability, and it will also record and measure their heart brain coherence.

  [00:22:23] So what they found was that the more coherent the heart and brain are, the more we feel like levels of peace, safety, calm, ease, we can think more clearly, and the more erratic and incoherent our the relationship between the heart and the brain, the more, almost like disconnected, we feel, I guess that that's the best way to say it.

  [00:22:43] It's almost like they're, they're disconnected when we're disconnected from the heart. You know, all these things that we've been hearing for like years and years and years, but it's actually shown now is showing to be true. It's being revealed almost to be able to measure it. And so there are certain things that people can do [00:23:00] and one of them being breathing really deep and slow and connecting with that heart space so that you're breathing really deep into the heart and and then thinking about things that you love.

  [00:23:10] So similar to like the meta meditation, the loving kindness meditation, really having that connection, that oxytocin that provides a sense of feeling safe and so having that. has been shown, and that's one of the exercises that they have on the program, has been shown to help increase the coherence between the heart and the brain.

  [00:23:32] So I find that really fascinating. And, Chinese medicine, the heart actually has a very important role on the uterus. So, and oxytocin increases around labor time, so it's, it's considered to be something that opens the uterus. This is something that I would love to talk to you about one day because I love this kind of stuff.

  [00:23:52] And so I'm wondering, it hasn't really been studied a lot for conception, but it increases around ovulation. A woman's, [00:24:00] oxytocin increases and it increases after orgasm. Why? If it didn't have any role in conception. So that's kind of like my hypothesis.

  [00:24:09] Alice: I a thousand percent agree with you, and it's ironic that this research we're doing is reassessing the heart and the brain.

  [00:24:16] Michelle: Interesting. Oh, wow. Incredible. Oh, I love this stuff. So when the research comes out, is it on your website? Is that the best place to find it?

  [00:24:25] Alice: I suspect when it's published, our PR team is going to go crazy and

  [00:24:29] Michelle: Good. Well, let me know because if, if it is, I'll have you back. Like I love this stuff. This stuff is really so important. I think for people to hear, I think people need to hear this because I think it empowers them.

  [00:24:42] Alice: Well, I think, you know, for people, for any woman, man, anybody going through infertility or infertility treatment, and I know we talk about women all the time, but you know, stress affects sperm production. Acupuncture helps sperm production. 

  [00:24:55] Michelle: Yep.

  [00:24:55] Alice: the naysayers who are saying to me, Oh, there's no relationship between [00:25:00] stress and reproductive outcome.

  [00:25:01] I'll say to them, okay, but you can believe that if you want, but what's the downside of offering our patients ways to relieve their stress? Because going through an IVF cycle is really hard. Going through infertility is really hard. Trying on your own is really hard. I mean, as I said, it's equivalent. To cancer patients.

  [00:25:20] It was equivalent to the beginning of the pandemic or is worse than the pandemic. So our patients women and men who are going through infertility are suffering and there was a study at a UCSF by Laurie

  [00:25:33] Pash, 

  [00:25:34] who's, 

  [00:25:34] Michelle: They're suffering.

  [00:25:35] Alice: and you know, the majority of men and women in, in their, who came to their clinic, the majority of men and women had psychiatric levels of anxiety, The majority of women had psychiatric levels of depression and about a third of the men had depression.

  [00:25:51] So, we're talking about the majority of the people who are going for treatment are miserable. And why, I mean, you know, got [00:26:00] to Inception Prelude two and a half years ago. I'm the Chief Compassion Officer. And so I've been spending the last two and a half years trying to implement ways to improve the patient experience?

  [00:26:14] I mean, how can we relieve stress? In our patients in a much better way than it's been going on for the last 50 years.

  [00:26:22] Michelle: I love that. I think it's so important. I mean, it's, I feel like you're answering a huge call. Like really, really, really, you know, it's interesting. I really think that you would love Dr. Lisa Miller's work. slightly different. I don't know if you've heard of her. She's written, she actually went through her own fertility journey and she has a TEDx talk, fascinating story.

  [00:26:41] She talks about like just her own journey and. How she, she ended up adopting and she felt like this calling to adopt. And, uh, the moment she adopted, she conceived, but she knew that she had to adopt in order to conceive because she was meant to be with her adoptive child. It was, it's a really fascinating story, her, her [00:27:00] own personal story, but she wrote a book called the awakened brain.

  [00:27:03] And so she studies, in, in, uh, Columbia University, she actually does research on the brain on spirituality and how spirituality impacts the brain and believing in something that's higher than ourselves, how that actually protects the brain from depression.

  [00:27:19] Alice: Well, let me tell you about a study I participated in many years ago. So, you know, I used to run these, my body groups like for 25 years and, you know, 10 week programs for women going through infertility. And because I was at a teaching hospital at Harvard Medical School, you know, we had interns and residents.

  [00:27:39] So for two years we had a psych intern who was getting her PhD. And she happened to be a woman, I think at that point, probably in her 70s, who in her 40s became an ordained Episcopalian minister. And then I think in her late 60s decided to get a PhD in psychology. And so she was my intern for two years and she sat through my body groups [00:28:00] and the issue of God and God punishing and you know, what have I done comes up a lot in infertility and because I'm not.

  [00:28:08] trained in pastoral counseling, there wasn't a whole lot I could do, but having her in my groups, the patients love talking to her about that. Anyway, so for her dissertation, her dissertation was really to solve an argument that the two of us were having, in that I felt that deeply religious women suffered more with their infertility because they believed God was punishing them. And she believed that deeply religious women suffered less because they believed in a higher power. So her dissertation, you know, we were, I don't remember how many patients she recruited and she assessed their religiosity, their spirituality, and their distress. And I was wrong.

  [00:28:54] Michelle: That's interesting.

  [00:28:55] Alice: Yeah. So the more religious and spiritual the [00:29:00] woman was, the less distressed she was by her infertility.

  [00:29:04] So, So, and, and again, very statistically significant when you published it. and so I, I, I encourage my patients who may have left. The religion of their childhood to say, you know what? Maybe explore other options. Explore your spirituality. You know, if you grew up Catholic and you just don't want to be part of the Catholic church, you know, go to an Episcopalian church or Unitarian church or, you know, because having faith, having spirituality, believing in a higher power.

  [00:29:33] may provide some comfort to you.

  [00:29:36] Michelle: Right. And actually, Dr. Lisa Miller says it's not necessarily religion,

  [00:29:40] Alice: Right. 

  [00:29:41] Michelle: it's spirituality. It's really just connecting and it's, it really comes down to this. It's connecting to something that, you know, you can lean on almost like a, there's something higher that's able to, Protect you in some way or like give you guidance.

  [00:29:55] But it's one of, it's become like one of the top questions I ask [00:30:00] when I first start working with people, I ask, do you have some kind of practice where you're able to connect or some it's you do too, yeah.

  [00:30:09] Alice: And I, you know, and again, you know, I'm in Boston where we have a huge Catholic population and a lot of young women. don't practice Catholicism anymore. And so I encourage them to pursue other ways to encourage spirit and not necessarily religiosity, but, you know, I've had a lot of patients, you know, go to, for example, Unitarian Church and feel a deep sense of belonging and comfort and inclusion.

  [00:30:36] And, you know, I was watching the today show this morning and they had a psychiatrist on who was talking about how hard it is these days to make friends because of social media and how the older you are, the harder it is to make friends. And we all need connections and infertility patients tend to really isolate themselves from family and friends who are pregnant or have kids.

  [00:30:57] And so it worries me how [00:31:00] isolated our patients become. And so if they can get some kind of connection from some form of spirituality, think that's great. 

  [00:31:09] Michelle: Yeah. And actually, as a matter of fact, I've been, um, inspired lately to form more, groups. like a zoom calls for free for my patients just to, so they can connect with each other because I'm like, I'm thinking like, there's so many times I'm like, you should talk to this one. This one should talk to this one because I feel like they really, and they thirst for it.

  [00:31:29] As soon as I want to connect them. Oh my God. Yes, please give them my number. You know, they're really excited about that. So I think that community is so healing and really that connection. I think that was one of the biggest, Issues during the pandemic. I think that that was the biggest, you know, impact.

  [00:31:45] Obviously it was you know, people getting sick, but it was also that social isolation, how much we need each other. We just need people.

  [00:31:53] Alice: Remember people made little bubbles? it was, it was so great was there had already been research showing that [00:32:00] Like zoom therapy was just as effective as one on one. And so we had to switch our mind body groups to being online and they were just as effective. And, Inception dash prelude is doing a new program for our patients in conjunction with pulling down the moon, which is a yoga, based company in Chicago.

  [00:32:21] And. they, not we, they have created this online program for our patients that's like half yoga and half support group. And I think we hit almost 500 patients in a row in the first couple of weeks. 

  [00:32:32] Michelle: Wow. 

  [00:32:33] Alice: I have not seen a single negative comment at the patients. I mean, they love the yoga because it's, it gives them, you know, relaxation.

  [00:32:41] It keeps them fit and toned, et cetera, but they really love the support group. 

  [00:32:46] Michelle: That's amazing. 

  [00:32:47] Alice: they love connecting with other people. So,

  [00:32:51] Michelle: I love that. So for people listening, I mean, I can pick your brain for like literally hours. And I want to talk to you actually after, because it's just, [00:33:00] I, I find what you're doing so exciting and we're also at a time where things are really exciting. I think we're really discovering a lot about ourselves and the power that we hold as humans, like kind of, we're wired.

  [00:33:12] Really amazingly. And I think that we just don't even know how to tap into it. So for people listening to this and saying, okay, I really do want to connect with like some kind of practice that will help me get through this really difficult journey, what are some tips on how people can get started? Mm

  [00:33:31] Alice: well, you know, ASRM, which is the American Society of Reproductive Medicine has about 700 mental health professionals who are basically reproductive mental health professionals. So if you want one, one on one or couples counseling, Those are the people you should go to because they actually know what infertility is about.

  [00:33:49] And so if you go in and say something like IUI or PGT or AMH, they're going to know what that means, which is really important for patients. I mean, I happen to think that this new [00:34:00] half yoga, half support group is just a really great thing because it tackles the mind and the body. And I think most people going through infertility are feeling incredibly isolated.

  [00:34:11] Resolve, which is the National Infertility Organization, has support groups, I think, in just about every state, because I think tackling loneliness and isolation is really important because, you know, infertility impacts every aspect of their lives and if they're in a relationship, it's going to impact their relationship, their sex life, their family, their friends, their job, their financial security, their self esteem, their body image.

  [00:34:35] And No one should be going through that alone.

  [00:34:40] Michelle: Absolutely. No one should be going through that alone. And I think that also feeling like you're the only person going through that. I think when you have other people that can share or understand you on a level that like, maybe you won't see in your normal, like day to day is incredible. It's an incredible [00:35:00] gift.

  [00:35:00] To have that relatability. So, I think that just what you bring up is so important. I am a huge fan of you and your work and what you do. I think, honestly, I there are certain people that I have on the podcast that I just feel like . I feel like you're God sent, like I really do. I I do. I I feel like that some people are just kind of, they're, they're answering a greater call that's gonna impact so many people.

  [00:35:25] Alice: Okay. 

  [00:35:25] Michelle: Yeah, 

  [00:35:26] Alice: so, you know, I'm going to get off this podcast and go tell my husband that I'm a godsend and 

  [00:35:30] Michelle: yes, you do that and tell them I said, I said, so, so, so for people listening to this, and I'm sure people are going to be really like, just amazed at a lot of the things that you shared and intrigued to learn more. How can they find out more about you? How can they find out more about the studies when they do come and kind of like, where should they go to look out for those?

  [00:35:56] Alice: I'd say everything, everything is on the Prelude website. So P R [00:36:00] E L U D, I think it's prelude. com.

  [00:36:02] Um, 

  [00:36:03] okay. Yeah, so everything we offer our patients, and actually one thing that I'm hoping will be offered to, well I know is going to be offered to our patients and I'm hoping more is, I wrote a book about 25 years ago called Conquering Infertility.

  [00:36:17] And so our chief marketing officer said, you know what, I really want to, you know, offer this book to all of our patients, but it was 25 years old. And so it was definitively medically outdated as well as the names of the patients that we quoted, like popular names 25 years ago are now popular names now anyway.

  [00:36:37] So I actually spent the summer revising the book

  [00:36:40] Michelle: Oh, awesome.

  [00:36:41] Alice: and So hopefully in the next month or two, all of Prelude patients will get a copy of the book. And I'm hoping the publisher is also going to make it available to anybody who wants one because it's literally the mind body program in a book. And it's got a [00:37:00] zillion patient stories.

  [00:37:01] We interviewed a lot of my patients just talking about how they felt, how they coped, what worked for them, what didn't work for them. Because I can either see one patient at a time, or you can offer programs that can offer or books or whatever to help a lot of other people.

  [00:37:18] Michelle: Yeah, for sure. And that's such a gift. Honestly, it's such a gift. And I think the stories, hold so much power too. So I, I love that you have stories in there. For people to hear, because I think when people see examples and say, okay, like I'm not the only one going through this and it can actually shift and change.

  [00:37:35] And I do have power. And, and then also, you know, sometimes stories that are not always like exactly how we want them to come out, but we can share in that. So I think that that is really powerful and I appreciate you coming on today. I really enjoyed our conversation.

  [00:37:51] Alice: Thanks for inviting me.

  [00:37:52] [00:38:00] [00:39:00] Description text goes here

EP 325 The Role of Intuition, Energy, and Neutrality in Fertility Wellness | Lindsay Goodwin

On today’s episode of The Wholesome Fertility Podcast, Michelle and Lindsay Goodwin @fertilefrequencies explore the intersection of spirituality and fertility, discussing Lindsay's journey as an intuitive medium and healer. They delve into the concept of spirit babies, the emotional and subconscious factors affecting fertility, and the importance of surrendering to the process. The discussion emphasizes the integration of mind-body techniques and the role of emotions in manifesting desires, particularly in the context of fertility. Lindsay shares insights from her new podcast,'Fertile Frequencies,' aimed at providing support and guidance for those on their fertility journey.

Guest Bio:

Lindsay Goodwin is a fertility support and reproductive medicine pioneer who uniquely blends spiritual and energy healing techniques with scientific approaches for a truly holistic experience. With credentials as a certified master life coach for self-mastery, a certified NLP therapist, a hypnotherapist, a licensed acupuncturist, and a board-certified herbalist, Lindsay brings a unique comprehensive approach to health, personal growth, and awakening the power within.

As a certified fellow on ABORM and a spiritual fertility medium, Lindsay uniquely empowers clients to overcome health, emotional, and mindset challenges. She achieves this through a blend of evidence-based practices and energy tools, helping individuals overwhelmed by stress, life demands, and fertility obstacles to conquer anxieties, setbacks, and past traumas. Her work fosters new patterns that usher in joy, fulfillment, freedom, and the renewed energy to hope.

Lindsay's profound personal transformation further enriches her expertise. A near-death experience prompted her awakening to the divine power within us all, leading her to integrate science, consciousness, and the unseen energies for healing and abundance. Her leadership in higher consciousness, mindset, and physical health has guided countless individuals to reclaim their lives and achieve a state of harmony, growth, and fulfillment, and to know that they are so much more than just their physical bodies!

IG: @fertilefrequencies 

YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@FertileFrequencies

Podcast: https://open.spotify.com/show/7usDvORdMFGzO2EILBsBju

Website: https://garnetmoonlove.com/the-empowered-fertile-code-program/

Free Gift - Fertile Affirmations & Spirit Baby Connection: https://lindsay-goodwin-garnet-moon.mykajabi.com/fertile-affirmations-audio

For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com

Check out Michelle’s Latest Book: The Way of Fertility!

https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility

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Transcript: 

Michelle (00:00)

Welcome back to the podcast Lindsay.

Lindsay Goodwin (00:03)

Thank you so much. I'm so glad to be here, Michelle.

Michelle (00:06)

Well, I love having you. We just had a whole long pre-talk. We just always connected. I always connected with you like from day one. So, and I love just seeing how you're progressing as a practitioner. And also as I was reading her bio, I mean, I really feel very aligned with how you see your healing, how you approach things, how you are staying in your truth with the

connection that you feel to spirit and also acknowledging how important that is in the healing process. And I think that, and we talked about this, there's this whole science versus this, it could be both. And I think that now we are moving into a place where we're actually bridging a lot of what has been shown that is sort of, it's being revealed almost like all the things that the ancients have been talking about for thousands of years.

is now starting to become revealed through science. And it's kind of interesting how that is happening right now in this time that we're living. We're starting to see a lot of things, even that the heart houses the mind through heart math, those kinds of things about coherence and how our heart is the the creative center and all of these different things, which I'm sure you're also very into. So I would love for you to just a quick

I mean, you've been on here before, but just a quick like background on you and how you got into this work and how you also in your own spirit, your own journey, connected with spirit and realized the importance of that when it comes to healing.

Lindsay Goodwin (01:51)

Yeah, well, Michelle, thank you so much. And absolutely, I couldn't agree with you more. We are definitely so aligned and I absolutely love the work that you're doing as well. And it's absolutely wonderful to meet other practitioners, healers, providers that are on the same path and are here to really help so many people that need it. So thank you so much. So really about how I got started. Well, I'm actually born intuitive medium. So as a child, I...

was very in tune almost as if I could hear people's thoughts. I just knew things that were much greater than what a three year old child because I remember about back when I was about three should know at that age and I also would see energy orbs. I just would know things about people know a lot about their emotions just was very intuitive. And so then as a child I grew up I run the age of seven is generally when we start to be conditioned and that's really when

The subconscious mind really starts to form is around the age of seven So that's when I kind of lost it and I started to try to fit into society like most of us And then when I was going through a divorce in my late 30s, I had a spiritual awakening I was actually robbed at gunpoint and during that experience I had an out-of-body experience

and I met what I refer to as God or universal energy, source energy, whatever you prefer to call it. And I was wrapped in gold light. It was almost like time had stopped. And the energy that was in the room, I do remember that it was radiating from behind the gunman that had the gun to my back. So the universe was also protecting them. So it was not only protecting me, but everyone because we are all connected. We're not separate. And so

It was really interesting to me. And there's also that saying, know, the universe. Yeah, yeah, it's pretty crazy. The universe always has your back. So, you know, I see things very I see things symbolically, but also that was very literal, like that saying the universe always has your back. I had a gun in my back, but there was this energy that was protecting me and the gunman. So during that time, I was not thinking about what you normally would think you would think about when you're going to lose your life.

Michelle (03:45)

That's interesting.

Lindsay Goodwin (04:10)

I wasn't thinking about my family. I wasn't thinking about my dog that I had at the time. I was only thinking about what I was seeing and I was seeing angels as well as this energy that I am speaking of this gold light. And I saw one of my spirit guides, his name is Bill. He was there and he had just transitioned out of his body back into spirit about six weeks before this had happened. And I saw my grandparents. And so I was told at this time,

that you need to wake up, you need to do what you're supposed to be doing, and you're gonna go back and you're gonna do this work. And so I remembered that, wow, I remember all these things, what I would experience as a child. It was like this beautiful kind of bittersweet sort of experience that happened because it woke me up. So after that, I really just all the intuitive stuff started coming in. I started taking a really strong interest in numerology.

consciousness and it just has opened up. And then I started getting a lot of messages from the babies. So I was a acupuncturist at the time. was and I still am an acupuncturist. And I was getting a lot of messages from babies and whether they would be in the aura of the person that I was treating, or they would actually be in the womb space and I would get messages from them.

I have regular dreams from what I call spirit baby guides that will come and share information with me about how to help people as well as people that I am working with. And so it's been very apparent and made very apparent to me what my job is. And I do not only treat fertility, I work with people on a just a very

helping people across the board with helping them really understand themselves. But fertility is a big part of my job. probably about 50%.

Michelle (06:08)

Amazing. so spirit babies have always really intrigued me. And what is it that you feel orbs or what exactly do you feel when you see those spirit babies attached to your patients?

Lindsay Goodwin (06:25)

Yeah, absolutely. So they can be sparkles. I see a lot of sparkles. The orbs of colors that I generally see will be blue, white, gold, sometimes purple, sometimes I will see pink. There have been times I have seen green. But the colors are specific. I haven't quite figured out why I only see certain colors.

Michelle (06:47)

Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Goodwin (06:48)

but they're very beautiful. They're like, if someone is sitting in my office or if I'm doing a virtual session because I work with people globally, that I can actually see these sparkles that will actually start to just come off of them or around them. And that could be a spirit baby. It could also be a passed on loved one that is guiding that particular person on their journey.

Michelle (07:03)

Mm.

Lindsay Goodwin (07:11)

But we're talking about spirit babies today. So definitely just the spirit in general could have that sort of sparkly sort of energy that I'll see in the person's energy field, which could also be known as biofield, which would be more of a scientific term if we're talking about auras. And then I just, see a lot in my third eye. So your third eye is right between your eyebrows. If people know about chakras, I know that you do, Michelle.

And so I get these thought forms. Sometimes they'll actually be words that will come across. Other times they'll be visuals like I will see the baby. I actually will see what they look like as well as their gender. They will show me different artifacts or objects that relate to the person that I'm reading so that that person will know that I'm actually telling them something that they can link up to and I'm not just making it up.

So that's one thing I've realized over the years with the spirit babies and just the spirit world in general is that things will come through that will resonate with you to confirm with you that you're not alone.

Michelle (08:18)

Right. That's amazing. And what do you find or what are the messages that you get for people who are struggling to conceive yet they have a spirit baby around them? Like what is the holdup for the spirit baby coming through?

Lindsay Goodwin (08:33)

Well, that's a very common question and there could be a bazillion different things, but I'll tell you some common areas that I see. There could be, you know, it could be that maybe subconsciously, this is where the subconscious mind comes in, which is really powerful. You're into that as well as also a certified hypnotherapist that our subconscious mind will create energy blocks and will make it so that we're thinking things under the radar.

Michelle (09:02)

Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Goodwin (09:02)

that could

be patterns about, maybe I won't be a good mom, maybe I won't be a good dad, maybe I won't be a good parent. And it could relate to some sort of traumatic event that happened. Maybe you had a mother that was emotionally unavailable. You couldn't speak your truth. You know, not necessarily saying that your parents were bad. It could be that maybe they just were dealing with their own things that were going on. And so you could be carrying around that trauma and not even realize that you're carrying it around. So...

Michelle (09:08)

Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Goodwin (09:32)

People often ask me, why is it so easy for some people to get pregnant, but it's difficult for me? Why have I had so much loss? Or maybe I have never even had a pregnancy or maybe I have secondary infertility. And the answer that I often get is that I remind people and letting them know that everybody's journey is different. And when we sign up to have these human experiences, we're coming in and we're creating different experiences.

Michelle (09:51)

Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Goodwin (09:58)

based on what our soul wants to learn in this physical 3D reality. And so if we're comparing our lives to other people and that, well, this person over here got pregnant really easily. Why is this person getting pregnant that doesn't even want the baby? Is this because everyone's journey is different as well as your spirit baby's journey is different. And so it could be a good example would be is that maybe you're someone that wanted to have a

lot more wisdom before you became a parent. Maybe you're someone that didn't want to be like your mother with your child. Maybe there was a lot of healing that needed to happen before your child actually would show up physically because you wanted to be in the best version of yourself to be able to give this child the life that maybe you didn't have.

Michelle (10:30)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah. I mean, there's the thing that I find is that, and I've gotten these ideas and downloads through meditation, through even going to Joe Dispenza events, because you're so immersed that you get these downloads, is that we are just simply not aware of the big picture. And we try to make conclusions based on parts and those parts of our life. so it's very hard to make a very

big picture conclusion when we don't have the big picture in front of us. And so part of that is really trusting that there's something else that does see the big picture that we're connected to and being able to surrender that. And that's another thing too that I've noticed is the surrender part. I think we're so conditioned to go after it that sometimes I like to kind of like think about, you know, the Chinese,

Lindsay Goodwin (11:26)

Yeah.

Yeah.

Michelle (11:49)

handcuffs or the finger cuffs or whatever. The faster you pull, the more you pull tightly and forcefully, the more you get stuck. Creating that kind of flow in your life will allow you to get the lesson faster, I feel like, and then you move faster. That's what I've noticed. Have you picked up on that?

Lindsay Goodwin (12:14)

yeah, absolutely. I mean, I have a client that I've been seeing since August and we've got some really good news yesterday. Her AMH went from a 0.44 or something like that to over 1.1 something. Yeah. And it's amazing. I just, it's yes, yes, absolutely. And she's in her forties. And I just, told her, what I tell my clients is you did that.

Michelle (12:31)

Wow, that's amazing. That's great to hear for people to hear.

Lindsay Goodwin (12:44)

You did that. mean, of course, supplements help acupuncture, but you did that because you have learned to let go of things that are no longer serving you. You're starting to really trust yourself. Your body is saying, yes, yes, yes, because your mind is saying, hey, I know my worthiness. I know that I deserve to be a mom because if I didn't deserve to be a mom, I wouldn't desire it.

Michelle (12:45)

Yes. Right.

Lindsay Goodwin (13:10)

Okay, and so she is really now believing that this is truly happening for her. It's a knowing now rather than it just, I'm looking for hope, I'm looking for encouragement, will this happen? She's actually knowing that it's happening and her body is responding to it because of her mind power. So I, you know, to get back to what you were talking about, you know, with surrendering, I often tell people with manifesting, whether it's a baby, because babies are manifestations.

Michelle (13:10)

Mm-hmm, right.

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Lindsay Goodwin (13:40)

It's a partner, it's a business, it's a new house, whatever it is, it's better health. What we do, and this is challenging because we're not taught this, but as little kids, we know this. We put out into the universe that, okay, I'm gonna manifest this. You have to almost take it and put it up on the shelf and leave it there. You have to be unattached. Yes, exactly, you have to be unattached.

Michelle (13:40)

Mm-hmm. Yep. Yeah.

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You almost have to forget about it.

Yeah.

Lindsay Goodwin (14:10)

to the how, the when, what it's gonna look like. And you're living your life and you're enjoying your magic and your light and your family and all the things that make you happy. I mean, when our perspective shifts, our whole world shifts. You can look at something one way or you can look at it another way. If you're looking at things and that things are abundant or you're looking at things of what I don't have,

Michelle (14:13)

Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

True.

Lindsay Goodwin (14:38)

That's a very different feeling. And we know that the universe is responding to how we feel.

Michelle (14:44)

yes. Yeah. It's the feelings. Yeah. The feelings really make a huge difference. And that's what they found actually in the research that Joe Dispenza does is because the researchers come up and talk and they say the two things that they saw, you know, the combination is thought emotions and emotional state. So that's one of the reasons why he focuses a lot on the heart and also this joy and the love.

Because when you feel those emotions, you can feel those emotions in very challenging times, yet you still can be very elevated. And I can tell you this, I I went through the loss of my father and it was a very challenging time to see him go through the transition. I knew he was gonna transition. I knew that I was witnessing to that. At the same time, I was able to get into a state of such love.

Lindsay Goodwin (15:38)

Yeah.

Michelle (15:39)

that

I felt more alive than like ever before. It felt like such a pivotal and sacred time, even though it could be judged as like this bad, dark time. And yes, it had very difficult, painful aspects to it, but the way I'm describing it now is it's a more neutral way. So you could look at something and acknowledge the pain in a more neutral perspective.

rather than looking at it and saying, this is good, this is bad. Because ultimately by doing that, or saying something's bad, you're limiting yourself. We were talking about that before. You're limiting yourself to that aspect of it. And that will impact your energy and how you're able to really show up in your life. And the energy impact can for sure impact the AMH. So all of these things that suck our energy throughout our life,

and mentally in the background are going to definitely impact the energy that can go into procreation. So it's this whole big picture.

Lindsay Goodwin (16:46)

It really is. And you know, I love what you're saying. It's about giving meaning to things. know, once we give meaning to things, then it takes on its own energy. neutral is a very powerful way of explaining it. And I know that that can be challenging as a human being because we're encoded with emotions. It's part of the experience. But when you can learn, like the Buddha says, and I'm not Buddhist, but just, know, I love

Michelle (17:07)

Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Goodwin (17:16)

history and there's a lot of philosophies that are great, is that when you can live in that middle place, you know, rather than being too up here or too down here, you're just neutral. That's really when the manifestation happens. That's really when the happiness, that's where the joy is, because you're not attached to anything.

Michelle (17:23)

Mm-hmm.

Yep. Yeah.

Yep.

Yes, it is. It's that golden path. know, Eckhart Tolle refers to that as the present moment. And Chinese medicine can refer to that or Taoism as flow. You know, that is that golden path that is, it's neither one extreme or the other. It's here in the center. It's that neutrality.

And many different ancient cultures have been pointing to that. And many different spiritual teachers refer to that because that is the portal. And Eckhart Tolle says that that present moment is the portal really to the endlessness. So it's, it's when we're able to really let go and, know, also not the, not get hung up on the past and hold on to all of that and not get too identified with the future.

just really being in that center moment. If you think about that, if you truly, truly get into that state, you're very free. You're free. And when you're free, energetically, you're able to really connect to a wealth of power and energy to create whatever you need to create.

Lindsay Goodwin (18:47)

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I have to add to that, you know, I don't know if you ask yourself this, but I find it quite interesting if we're just talking about Chinese medicine. How is it that ancient philosophers of Chinese medicine came up with everything that they knew about the internal parts of the body and the spiritual energy with no diagnostics, no MRI machine, no ultrasound, no ability to look at the blood. They were channeling.

They were channeling energy.

Michelle (19:19)

100%. 100%. They were connected to that wealth of intelligence that we all have. We all are connected to. And I love that you mentioned that because you and I are both interested kind of like in the scientific research of the spirituality and like really understanding that because it's a great tool and it could be used as a great tool. However, they didn't have that back then.

Lindsay Goodwin (19:21)

Thank

Absolutely.

Michelle (19:45)

And so that just shows, and it's actually being proven just by itself, that just shows that there is an intelligence that we are connected to, that we can connect to without necessarily having to dissect it.

Lindsay Goodwin (20:02)

Yep, absolutely. And I say this often too, if science was a silver bullet for everything, are people not able to get pregnant with IVF?

Michelle (20:12)

Right. my God, such a good point.

Lindsay Goodwin (20:16)

I mean, it works for a lot of people. I'm not anti Western medicine or modern medicine at all. I think it's great. I believe in integrative medicine. Yeah, absolutely. And that's, think what makes what we do so powerful too. We can see both sides of the coin and really help people to understand their bodies, but also understand that, wow, we've got this energy part that can't always be proven. Right. And so

Michelle (20:19)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Me too, yeah.

Yes, 100%.

Yeah.

Lindsay Goodwin (20:44)

you know, it's just that's, that's what people want. That is where we are going as an energy collective as integrative. It's not, you know, one side, one sided, you know, this is an integrative process that's happening because science is great. mean, there's so many wonderful, just advantages to live in this time where we have science, because for example, if someone has

Michelle (20:52)

Mm-hmm.

Yes, yeah, it's whole.

Lindsay Goodwin (21:13)

Say they have a partner that has some sort of DNA issue with their sperm and if they get pregnant naturally, they've had several miscarriages and that's painful to go through. IVF would be a great option because then we can create an embryo that is healthy and then we have a healthy baby. They're not going through that emotional roller coaster. It's not just that. I'm just giving one example.

Michelle (21:20)

Mm-hmm.

Correct.

Lindsay Goodwin (21:43)

Okay, but when we're just saying that it's just one way or the other, it's making it very limited for people. And I don't think that that's fair. This is my opinion and I know that you're on the same page too. But like, this is what we are going to see further that we go into just where we're headed as just humans. People want more of the energy.

Michelle (21:43)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Goodwin (22:11)

options in health in general. You're moving away from being, I'm going to take this pill and that pill and I'm going to, you know, people don't want that anymore. I don't want that. I mean, you and I haven't been wanting that for years because we wouldn't be where we are if we did. And again, I'm not, I'm not knocking. I'm not talking bad about science. I think that, like I said, it's, it's wonderful. It does wonderful things.

Michelle (22:13)

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Lindsay Goodwin (22:38)

but we have to open our mind a little bit more to things.

Michelle (22:41)

For sure. There's definitely a place

for everything. And I think that as you're talking about that, I'm thinking about the neutrality aspect of it, looking at it objectively and saying, Hey, you know, this is one tool and then this is another tool. And sometimes this tool is a tool that can be very beneficial, but it shouldn't be the only tool because there are other tools like energetic that we don't necessarily see that can be very beneficial. And in fact, sometimes can enhance the, maybe the medical tools.

Lindsay Goodwin (22:49)

the

Yeah, absolutely. Well, they have found studies, know, Harvard Medical School for, it was not contemporary medicine, but it's the alternative side of the medical school. They did a study where they found that they had two different groups. And the one group that followed a mind body, which what was included with that was meditations, mindfulness, as well as visualizations.

Michelle (23:38)

Yeah.

Lindsay Goodwin (23:38)

Hypnotherapy,

medical intuition, mean, all these energy modalities, they had a 55 % success rate of healthy babies, where the other group that didn't follow that particular program chose not to do it or just didn't do it the way that it was designed for them had about a 20 % success rate. So we really are seeing that when we are integrating, like you just stated, these mind-body techniques that

Michelle (24:07)

Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Goodwin (24:07)

they can

really enhance these medical therapies that people are using with Western medicine like IVF.

Michelle (24:15)

yeah, it is so powerful and I'm glad that finally there's attention put on it because I think that because it's so abstract, a lot of these visualizations or visualizations being different than what you just said, like which is more mindfulness, but in general, like getting into the state of our being that is more abstract. It's not something that we can easily dissect or it's not as tangible as others.

And I think for that reason specifically, it can be very easily ignored. So I love the fact that there is data showing the evidence of that working because it's powerful and I think it'll get more people on board to do that. And not only will it help their fertility, but it's also going to help their life.

Lindsay Goodwin (25:04)

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, because you know, it's I have a lot of vivid dreams, one that I had earlier this year. And I'm not religious in any way. But I get messages in there what they are. And the message was is the kingdom is within you. And we all know that if people read the Bible, or they've seen that. And again, I'm not necessarily a pusher of the Bible by any means, I'm a spiritual person. So I don't push any sort of religion. So very open.

Michelle (25:22)

Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Goodwin (25:34)

But, you know, it's interesting to me because when I was having this dream, it was a presence, it was a consciousness. And again, I think that this was source energy God, which is all of us anyway. It's we're not separate from that, like you stated. And so there was these all these lapis lazuli stones that were coming out of what I know to be my body.

Michelle (25:48)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Lindsay Goodwin (26:04)

And I did not know, but in the Bible it states that Lapis Lazuli was made, that was what the throne of what God, I guess in the Bible, was actually made from. So it was very powerful and that shook me up. If the robbery and the out of body experience didn't, that one did, that we're all so powerful.

Michelle (26:04)

Mm-hmm.

wow.

Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Goodwin (26:33)

And you

don't necessarily have to be having dreams like I do. I'm here to share these dreams. I'm here to share this information, just like you, to help people to realize that you have the power to create and be anything that you want. You have the power to heal yourself. And by no means disclaimer, am I recommending that people stop taking their medications or stop their treatment? But you do. You have the power, but it's

Michelle (26:55)

Yes. Yeah.

Lindsay Goodwin (27:02)

really starting to believe that and that can take some healing work, know, working with someone that can help you with that. But I always tell people when they work with me, we're not meant to work together forever. We're meant to get the work done that we're meant to do together and then you're going to be better and you're going to find your own magic. And then you're going to be able to help other people by you just being you. Yeah.

Michelle (27:04)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Yes, it does happen often.

And then what are some things, because we talk about the mind body and obviously there are certain techniques, like we talked about mindfulness. What are some techniques that people can look into that can help them utilize this incredible force of their mind?

Lindsay Goodwin (27:47)

Yeah, absolutely. So techniques that I use would be hypnotherapy, which I know you use as well, Michelle, and neuro linguistic programming, which is NLP, which is being able to tap into the subconscious mind. It also is the study of body language. So it's the study like the FBI uses it to be able to solve cases and be able to tell if people are telling the truth or not.

Michelle (28:07)

Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Goodwin (28:11)

Now that's a really powerful way to be able to work with somebody too, because sometimes you could even be lying to yourself, not even realize that you're doing it. So I'm able to see really, and it does not, we can be virtual, does not necessarily have to be in person. Energy has no barriers with us being across the world or across the country like you and I are. And so we can use these tools to be able to tell what's going on in somebody's subconscious mind.

Michelle (28:17)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Goodwin (28:39)

probably are not consciously aware of. So then what we do is I use different tools to be able to help them to learn how to reprogram those behaviors because the subconscious mind doesn't know the difference between real and fake. So if you're constantly unconsciously telling yourself, like I was stating before, that I don't know if I'm going to be a good parent. I don't know if this is going to work out for me. What if I've had clients, for example, that have had maybe their

Michelle (28:41)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Goodwin (29:09)

their mom had secondary infertility and they heard about that. I have one actually that's happened to and she did not even realize this. And then when she started working with me, we identified that her mom had secondary infertility when she was trying to have her. So she'd been constantly telling herself since she was about 12 years old that she was gonna have infertility, infertility, infertility. I have another client I worked with years ago that did IVF.

Michelle (29:23)

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Goodwin (29:36)

And she had some of the lowest AMH that I've ever seen on somebody that was young. I mean, she was under 30. And she we identified and figured out that her aunt had infertility. And she had been telling herself over and over again, she was a little girl that she was going to have infertility. Well, she did one baby with IVF, all the other ones like three more three or four more came naturally. So once she got over that

that subconscious belief that she was going to have trouble with having a baby, then she just had babies naturally. So was something that she needed to get over in her journey. So NLP, Neuro Linguistic Program is really powerful. Visualizations are really powerful, mindfulness, meditation. I do a lot of visualization with my clients as well as helping them with their chakras, which are the energy centers located in the spine.

to really identify also my medical intuitive so really identify where there's imbalancing happening and then figuring out what emotions are attached to that what sort of traumas are attached to that for example a lot of women have a blocked throat chakra which when we have a blocked throat chakra yeah it is yeah yeah exactly that will block up the womb space

Michelle (30:47)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, and lapis lazuli is good for that.

And it's interesting how the thyroid impacts reproductive, organs and health.

Lindsay Goodwin (31:08)

Yep. It's the biggest one. It's the biggest gland in that endocrine system. Yeah, it's crazy. Yeah, we could go into endocrinology and the spiritual. That's always fun. Yeah.

Michelle (31:19)

Yeah, but also expression, know, so that expression

opening up the heart, heart opening up the uterus. I mean, there's so many aspects and that's the thing too with chakras is that yes, they each have their own indication and behaviors and patterns, but they also have an interlinking workings with each other.

Lindsay Goodwin (31:42)

Yep. It's all connected just like the Chinese philosophers of Eastern medicine.

Michelle (31:48)

Yeah. Amazing. This is so interesting. mean, I can talk to you for hours. I can keep talking about like everything, but I wanted to ask if people are interested. I know you have a new podcast, which is awesome. And so talk about your new podcast and also talk about how people can reach out to you if they want to work with you.

Lindsay Goodwin (31:53)

same.

Yes.

Yeah, absolutely. So new podcast is fertile frequencies. I created that. Thank you. I created that because I really wanted to bring more of an integration of the unseen energies of the energies of spirit babies, energetic, spiritual fertility, which by the way, is not religious, it is spiritual, it's energy. Often that's a question that people will ask me about. That's kind of why I call it more energetic spiritual fertility. So people kind of understand this from an energy standpoint.

Michelle (32:13)

I love that.

Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Goodwin (32:40)

And so really talking with people, giving you the encouragement on your fertility journey, knowing that this is manifesting for you, understanding more about your physical body, but knowing that your fertility is way more than just your physical body. So we do get into some of the dynamics of things like egg quality, as well as IVF, talking about nutrition, different supplements.

I do talk about that, but I'm more about the energy. I feel like there's a lot of information out there about the physical side of fertility. So a lot of great content creators, like people, and of course you have a great podcast as well, that are already doing that. So there's not enough of the energy. So yeah, so that is a lot if you're into that, which if you listen to Michelle's podcast, I'm sure that you are into the energy side of fertility.

Michelle (33:07)

Mm-hmm.

Yep.

I agree.

Mm-hmm.

Lindsay Goodwin (33:31)

And so just started that, I'm gonna have some really great experts on there. I'd love to have you on there as well. That's coming up. So it's definitely getting bigger than I think I was expecting it to. I think it's just time. It's time for this message to be out. Yeah, it's aligned, exactly. I do have a fertility program coming out as well. Of course, it's coming out in this month.

Michelle (33:46)

It's time. It's aligned. time.

Lindsay Goodwin (33:56)

And then I do have a VIP fertility program where you can work one-on-one with me and I do design a unique fertility program for you that has the physical aspects in it, but I do walk you through, help you with changing some of those subconscious patterns, helping you to really manifest the healthy pregnancy that you're looking for. And if you're interested in that, I do offer a 45 minute call where we can go through the program and I can meet you and we can answer any questions. I can answer any questions that you have.

and see how I can help. I'm only going to work with people that I know I can help. So I'm very honest about that as well. I think integrity is a huge part of this. So first step is seeing if we're a good fit. And then I also have some free resources as well. If you'd like to, I have an ebook on fertility, some seven essential steps to download, an ebook download to help you with some of those essential steps getting started on your fertility journey, or if you're someone that

Michelle (34:30)

Mm-hmm.

Yeah, for sure.

Lindsay Goodwin (34:55)

has been trying for a while. That would be helpful as well. And I do have a fertility affirmations and meditation available that you can download that is a free download as well. definitely I'm now on Insight timer. So you can download it on there. Yeah. So yeah.

Michelle (35:09)

Mm-hmm. awesome. Cool.

That's great. And all of Lindsay's information will be in the episode notes in case anybody wants to find it. Lindsay, I absolutely love talking to you. I feel so aligned with your way and method of teaching and also your perspective on fertility and health.

So it's always a pleasure talking to you. Happy new year. Well, right now it's, by the time this airs, it's going to be way past new year, but it is January 1st today. So thank you so much for coming on.

Lindsay Goodwin (35:34)

you

Yeah.

Thank you so much, Michelle, and thank you to all of your listeners and so much love and encouragement. And just know that it's all happening for you.