EP 289 Can Psychedelics Play a Role in Mind Body Healing? | Paul Austin

Paul F. Austin is one of the most prominent voices in the world of psychedelics.

As the founder of Third Wave, he has educated millions on the importance of safe and effective psychedelic experiences. A pioneer at the intersection of psychedelics, personal transformation, and professional success, his work has been featured in Forbes, Rolling Stone, and the BBC's Worklife.

Paul helps leaders, creatives, and pioneers leverage psychedelics for exponential personal growth and professional development. He views psychedelics as a skill refined through mentorship, courageous exploration, and intentional use.

According to Paul, learning how to master this skill will be crucial in the story of humanity’s present-future evolution.

Note: Psychedelics are not legal in most U.S. states so it’s important to take this episode as educational and not medical or suggestive advice. This is a potent controlled substance and this episode is not intended to recommend or suggest that anyone take it. 

Website & Social media links (Facebook, instagram, twitter)

Social Media Paul F. Austin:

- IG: https://www.instagram.com/paulaustin3w/

- X: https://twitter.com/PaulAustin3w?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

- LI: https://www.linkedin.com/in/paul-f-austin/

Social Media Third Wave

- YT: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCATHWJYqouqzF3-5GMIaOuQ

- FB: https://www.facebook.com/thirdwaveishere

- X: https://twitter.com/thirdwaveishere

- IG: http://www.instagram.com/thirdwaveishere

- LI: http://www.linkedin.com/company/third-wave-psychedelics/

In this conversation, Paul Austin discusses his personal journey with psychedelics and how they have impacted his life. He explains the potential therapeutic benefits of microdosing psychedelics, such as psilocybin and ketamine, and how they can help with mental health issues and even fertility. Paul emphasizes the importance of finding a qualified practitioner and following a safe and responsible approach when using psychedelics. He also shares resources, such as his podcast and coaching program, for those who want to learn more.

Takeaways

• Psychedelics, when used responsibly, may have therapeutic benefits for the mind.

• Psychedelics can promote neuroplasticity and reduce inflammation in the brain, leading to positive changes in mental health.

• Finding a qualified practitioner and following a safe approach is crucial when using psychedelics.

• Resources like podcasts, guides, and coaching programs are available for those interested in learning more about psychedelics.

Click here to find out how to get the first chapter of "The Way of Fertility" for free.

For more information about Michelle, visit www.michelleoravitz.com

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

For more information about Michelle, visitwww.michelleoravitz.com

The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: 

https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/

Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility

Facebook:https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/

Transcript:

Michelle (00:00)

Welcome to the podcast fall.

Paul Austin (00:01)

Thank you for having me on, Michelle.

Michelle (00:03)

I'd love for you to share your background, how you got into this work. And then we'll obviously dive in a little later.

Paul Austin (00:10)

Well, the topic we're covering today is or has been a fairly taboo one. And the place that I grew up in was raised in that was, I would say particularly so. My family was pretty religious growing up. So we were in church every Sunday. This is, I grew up in Michigan in the Midwest and.

at the age of 16, I started to smoke a little cannabis and soon after that tried alcohol for the first time. And then a few years after that started to work with LSD and mushrooms. And early on in that journey, like pretty much right after I started smoking weed, my parents found out that I had been, you know, trying cannabis and they sat me down and

Uh, one Sunday after church and my dad looked at me and was like, you know, I haven't been this disappointed since my brother passed away in a car accident 35 years ago, something like that. So it clearly pained my parents. I mean, it clearly impacted them way more than it impacted me. There's this very negative. Mine was very positive. So it just became clear at that point in time that we were just, we were of different perspectives, which I accepted and was fine with. I was much more the rebel and you know, uh, the

person who was skeptical of groupthink and was always asking questions and sort of being a little bit of a menace. I was definitely a little bit of a menace growing up as a young kid. But that then matured into, oh, I would like to choose a path that's more unconventional that, you know, most people don't necessarily follow. So when I was 21, I moved to Turkey and I had been influenced by my early LSD and psychedelic use. I had had these experiences with...

either by myself or with a small group of friends in the woods, in nature, and always just felt very creative from that place and wanting to sort of paint my own picture or dream my own dream or create lifestyle design in a way that I felt was very intentional. And so I thought the first the first path coming out of university would be fun to travel. So I taught English in Turkey, and then I started a business in Thailand like an online

business, like a sort of early digital nomad remote work lifestyle. And I was traveling all over. I'd go to Vietnam. I'd go to, you know, I did road trips all across Europe. I went to the Amazon for a conference in Ayahuasca at one point. So very nomadic traveling all over. And soon after that phase started, I moved to Budapest and I worked with LSD again and had a very profound experience. And this was 2015. And at that point in time, I was

noticing more people were talking about psychedelics. There are more conversations happening around them, more research being published. So I started Third Wave as an educational platform resource for like cultural or legalization of psychedelics. And the story kind of like this first chapter sort of concludes when in 2018, Michael Pollan's book came out, How to Change Your Mind. I gave it to my dad to read and he read it.

And soon after he started to microdose and then soon after that, I guided him through a high dose psilocybin journey. So, you know, this is almost 13, 14 years after that initial conversation we had, their minds had been changed quite a bit. And now my parents are, you know, fully supportive and behind what I do professionally and all those sorts of things. So what I've sort of learned over the last 10 years being professionally involved in this work is.

you know, if we have our own experiences with them, we speak from that place, you know, we, it's, it's good not to sort of willfully push it onto others, but providing education, providing context, providing answers to questions if they're interested. That's really what I strive to do and support people in, in and on their path with psychedelics and microdoses.

Michelle (04:13)

Yeah, I mean, I know this sounds almost like a random topic to be putting into fertility work. I like to kind of talk about everything. I think everything that could be medicinal for yourself on a psycho spiritual, level to me is welcome. And I'm interested because I see a lot of really emerging

data, information about how this can help people, like deeply in a different way than some of the pharmaceuticals, which if anything, kind of like push down what we're really feeling and like going into the root of what's happening in your body or your mind can impact your body and can also impact your mind and it can also impact how you perceive the world. And I had one of my patients, actually a couple of patients, um,

do this, microdose. And they've come to me and told me, one of them, I remember her having major anxiety and I was helping her prepare for IVF. She had many failed rounds and was going through this for many years and young woman, you know, too. So she was young and she's like, I don't understand why we can't start a family. And I felt her anxiety, like literally can feel her anxiety every time she used to come in. And I would talk to her about meditation and different things. And then,

One day she came in and I felt like she was like a different person. And she told me that she started microdosing and that it really helped her tremendously come out of anxiety. And shortly thereafter, she ended up getting pregnant. She had a positive outcome. So I was like, okay, this is interesting. And I've talked to another patient of mine who had miscarried. And after many years of trying,

and finally got pregnant and miscarried and went through a lot of anxiety around it. And she told me, and for a while actually, I didn't hear from her. She needed a break. And it's so very often this happens with this field. You know, people go inwards and try to figure out or take breaks really from trying anything because it could be so emotionally exhausting. And she said the one thing that really helped her is she microdosed as well. And then I started watching, I love Gaia.

TV, I watch a lot of topics on there. And they were talking about microdosing and really the power of psychedelics and how it can impact the mind. And I'm just intrigued. And then your people reached out to me. I'm like, you know what, this is a really interesting topic and I really want to look into this. And you're right. It is kind of a taboo because it's considered a controlled substance, but it is a lot of people are starting to look into it for therapeutics because they're seeing that it

has an impact on almost rewiring the mind. And I find that really intriguing. So I really want to talk about like, how does this work? How does it work on the mind? Like, what's it? What's the impact like for microdosing, for example, psilocybin? Like, how does that work?

Paul Austin (07:16)

Thank you.

So when we think about the mechanism of action of low doses of psychedelics, there's the protocols that we can follow, like do it twice a week or do it three times a week. The prescription sort of being minimum of one month up to three months and then take a two to three week break and cycle off of it. So that's very much the what of.

Microdosing. The how is where you get a little bit more into why this might be impacting fertility, why this may be impacting our body's sort of sense of homeostasis or, you know, a sense of vitality or full health. And that really looks at its impact on certain neurotransmitters like serotonin and dopamine. It has a positive impact on both.

So it helps with focus, attention, motivation. It also helps people to feel better, to feel good. And that mechanism of action also plays out in its impact on neuroplasticity and the production of BDN -Apran -Gerab neurotrophic factor, which is a precursor to neuroplasticity. So what we know about microdosing is that when it's done in a consistent rhythm,

Ideally combined with some form of practice like meditation or yoga or just more mindfulness around what we eat. So some sort of intention is weaving through it. It can drive towards a number of beneficial outcomes depending on the context. So some people will say, oh, this really helped me to get off my SSRIs. This helped me to get off certain benzodiazepines. This helped me to get off.

ADHD medication, some people will be like, Oh, this really helped me to find my rhythm again in work and I was able to access flow or some people are like, Oh, this really helped me manage or heal my relationship or help me to heal fertility issues. So it depends on the context depends on the intention behind the overall experience. But the driving factor is is that impact on neuroplasticity.

Michelle (09:30)

Mm -hmm.

Paul Austin (09:31)

and what it does to the prefrontal cortex in terms of helping us to plan and think and change and shift. But it also has a really an impact on the amygdala, which is our field response center. So oftentimes people notice they become more courageous. They're more willing to sort of step outside their normal bounds of what's comfortable. And that sense of courage allows people to explore new territory, to try new things, which can often lead to beneficial outcomes.

Michelle (09:51)

Mm -hmm.

Paul Austin (09:58)

because so oftentimes we get stuck in ruts, we get stuck in default patterns, we get stuck in doing the same thing over and over again. And we often need a little push to break those habits and those cycles and learn to be, to sort of, I would say, regulate ourselves in the midst of uncertainty and chaos.

Michelle (10:17)

Right. And then just to kind of be clear, it's not, you're not getting the courage, it's not like you're going to be more of a risk taker per se. It's just, it gives you more of that feeling where you're able to more.

Paul Austin (10:32)

Yeah, it depends on the context, right? There are some people who certainly they go drink ayahuasca, they smoke five MEO, or they do these more higher therapeutic doses of psychedelics and they it impacts them in such a way that they make decisions that sometimes they later regret like this is part of the education around responsible psychedelic use is if you have a really big experience, give it time before you're making any major life decisions.

Michelle (10:49)

Mm -hmm.

But with microdosing specifically, it's not. Yeah, yeah.

Paul Austin (10:58)

with microdosing not so much, right? And so that's sort of the upside or benefit, especially to someone who's fairly new to this is it's almost like contained risk taking, you know, not unhealthy risk taking or not impulsive behavior that could be detrimental or maladaptive, right? We're really looking at just a slight uptick in, oh, I'd like to try a new thing. Like I think it would be helpful to do something that's slightly uncomfortable. Like,

Cold plunging would be a really good example. Cold plunging is very uncomfortable. But we know that it's very beneficial and very safe. And so that's really for a lot of people would be a risk, but it's a very healthy potential beneficial risk.

Michelle (11:28)

Mm.

Yeah.

Right.

And neuroplasticity, people are hearing that for the first time, it basically means that you can rewire your brain and kind of make changes. Is it beneficial in the sense that it almost allows you to change habits more easily than without it?

Paul Austin (11:56)

So there's been some interesting research on octopus with MDMA. So octopi are normally very independent. They're not really all that social. And there was a researcher at Johns Hopkins who gave them MDMA. And noticed that for this critical learning period of time, they were more pro -social, they played together, they were in that way. And that taught them these new patterns and new behaviors that they continued to exhibit after the MDMA totally passed through their system two weeks, three weeks later.

And so the sort of, that's probably one of the most interesting elements. Cal Berkeley, UC Berkeley is now carrying out further research on that. They just received a $6 million grant from the Bob and Renee Parsons Foundation. Bob was the founder of GoDaddy and is now supporting psychedelic research. And so they're studying what is that critical learning period after we do a high therapeutic dose. And what it looks like is it's two to three weeks.

where there's this open window of change in your brain where it just becomes easier to try new things, to weave in new patterns and weave in new behaviors, to develop what's called cortical plasticity, to develop more gray matter in the brain. All of this helps our brain become younger, communicate better, helps us to have more energy.

And it's also related to just overall inflammation, which it could be the tie into fertility as well. When we're looking at overall, you know, holistic health metrics to track and understand it's inflammation. And psychedelics are shown to have a beneficial and positive outcome and impact on lowering inflammation. And because, and that's also, it's also why it has an impact on neuroplasticity. Because when we lower inflammation in the gut, we lower it in the brain.

Michelle (13:22)

Mm -hmm.

Mm -hmm.

Paul Austin (13:41)

when there's less inflammation in the brain, the brain becomes younger, it becomes healthier, it becomes more like a sponge, if you will. And so that impact on inflammation, I think is responsible for a lot of the, there are people who heal shingles with microdosing. There are people who have gotten through Lyme disease with low doses of psychedelics. There are people who found beneficial outcomes for cluster headaches, which are one of the most, like,

Michelle (14:04)

Mm -hmm.

Paul Austin (14:09)

just awful feelings in the world and then fertility as well. So when I look at that overall holistic impact, I'm really wanting to understand its impact in inflammatory markers in particular, and if by significantly reducing those, it helps to create more space for things like babies.

Michelle (14:28)

So MDMA is that what is in psilocybin, like mushrooms?

Paul Austin (14:35)

MDMA is also known as ecstasy psilocybin is what's in mushrooms. So psilocybin is also produced synthetically That is a tryptamine. It's a certain typical classic psychedelic MDMA is what's called allophenethylamine and it has a methamphetamine component It's more stimulating which can really help with PTSD in particular. So MDMA will be approved by the FDA most likely this year

Michelle (14:40)

Uh huh.

Mm -hmm.

Paul Austin (15:00)

to treat PTSD. So by the end of this year, there will be medically available MDMA for people who have PTSD. Psilocybin will be a few years on, but it's currently legal in Colorado and Oregon and potentially soon in California and other states.

Michelle (15:16)

So if somebody was to, were to want to do this therapeutically, are you able to do this therapeutically, psilocybin other than those states?

Paul Austin (15:27)

Well, yes and no, right? Like there are, there are plenty of people who work with psilocybin in underground circles. There are a lot of people who grow their own mushrooms. We have a little cute grow kit on third wave where we make it really easy for you to grow your own mushrooms. There are a lot of people who fly and travel to Oregon or they fly and travel to Colorado. I also had a previous project many years ago where I set up a legal center in the Netherlands.

We'd have people fly over there, a lot of Americans fly over to the Netherlands to do a high dose retreat experience. But all of the policy is really focused on these high dose therapeutic experiences. There isn't a lot that's done specific to micro dosing. So one project that I've been focused on building has been something called the micro dosing collective, which is a 501c3 nonprofit to pass policy.

related to adult use of psilocybin so people can have access to microdosing and can do it at home legally. Right now, most of this is illegal. But it's...

Michelle (16:36)

Yeah. So obviously I don't want to like be telling people to do anything illegal, especially here on the podcast. Like I don't want to, you know, that's not the message here, but I do want people, if they're interested to know what avenues they could do that was, legal.

Paul Austin (16:53)

which are basically these retreat options, I mean, in Oregon and Colorado. We also on third wave, we have directory of clinics, ketamine clinics. Ketamine is legal and used widely for various issues and conditions. It's very safe, it's very effective. It's been approved by the FDA for treatment resistant depression, but generic ketamine is also widely available. So folks wanna stay on the right side of the law. So to say, ketamine clinics are great.

Michelle (17:02)

Mm -hmm.

Paul Austin (17:21)

a lot of retreat centers in Oregon and Colorado that are starting to open as well as Costa Rica, other places in South America, the Netherlands, even Canada. So there are more and more options that are coming online. And again, by the end of this year, MDMA will be medically available. My expectation is that within five to six years, we'll see widespread accessibility through various channels of psychedelics and plant medicines. And...

Even now, if you kind of know how to look or where to look and Third Wave is a great resource for that, you can do things that are totally legal and very effective currently. There are lots of options for that.

Michelle (17:56)

Let's talk about ketamine because I actually have heard, I remember going to a conference and they talked about ketamine and the benefits that... What I like about it, I mean, obviously this isn't my specialty at all. I don't really know about my medicine in general. It's not my specialty, but I know that a lot of my patients coming in,

they were taking antidepressants, like a lot of things that I hear is it's very hard to get off of it. Sometimes people would say they almost feel like a numbness in their emotion. It sounds like what's being given mainstream is not the best option, like for long -term, and it's not a real solution. It's more just let's get through this. And I'm not saying to get off anything. If you are on it, obviously listen to whatever

Your doctors are telling you, you know, whoever you're choosing to work with, it just doesn't seem to me from listening to what my patients are telling me that it is something that is long -term or root, you know, like a root cause perspective. Whereas what I'm understanding from ketamine and even microdosing just based on what I've heard is that it gets into the root.

of what's happening gets you really to the root to clear out what it is that's causing the depression or any kind of anxiety. So I've heard a lot of great things about ketamine that it works, it sustains itself. If you do it, it actually has a lasting effect and changes and rewires the brain, which is what got my attention. Because it's much better if you don't have to

something for the rest of your life. Or that if you get off of it, you're going to have all kinds of symptoms. So it's so much better to know that there's something out there that could possibly really make a lasting healing effect on the mind. So talk to us about ketamine. And obviously that is legal. And it's something that it's a great option, it seems like for a lot of people, like who should look into it or consider it and who should not.

Paul Austin (20:11)

The academies are great.

Michelle (20:12)

So it's three questions.

Paul Austin (20:14)

Yeah, I'll do my best. If I don't cover anything, we can circle back. But ketamine's a, it's a class, it's a disassociative. It's been used since like the 1950s as an anesthetic in emergency rooms. It's one of the most widely used drugs in the world. It's incredibly safe at even very high doses for sedation, especially of young kids in the ER. And they found out, I don't know, maybe 20, 25 years ago that it had antidepressant effects.

Michelle (20:17)

I'll remind you.

Paul Austin (20:41)

And so it's fantastic for suicidality. It immediately interrupts those thought patterns. It's one of the best currently available treatments for suicidality. It's really helpful for depression. A lot of therapists are now using lower doses of ketamine within a therapeutic practice. So they'll do a two hour session instead of a one hour session and guide someone through a low dose of ketamine as part of that container. That's what we call a psycholytic approach. It's similar to microdosing or low dosing, but just slightly more.

And ketamine is legal everywhere. It's widely available. There are in -person clinics. There's also the opportunity to do ketamine at home. I've done both. I've gone into clinics and worked with ketamine and I've also done it at home. Both have upsides and downsides. The IV ketamine, which happens in a clinic is more intense and it's more of a sterile, a bit of more of a sterile environment.

Some clinics don't provide great support. Some clinics do. You want to work in a, go to a clinic that provides great therapeutic support as part of your treatment protocol. At home, you have a friend or a family member who's sitting for you and virtual coaching, but the ketamine is simply sent to your home. You do it in the safety of your own home. A lot of people enjoy that. And as long as they get the dosage correct, you know,

adverse outcomes are minimal. They happen, but they're very minimal with ketamine. And I think it could be a really great bridge or sort of transition point for, especially if people are on SOS or on antidepressants, it may be a new useful modality that could be helpful and effective. This isn't necessarily the case for everyone, but maybe 60 to 70 % of people find that ketamine works for them and is effective. And, you know, I think it's...

It's for me at least and for a lot of people I would say there's something deeper in mushrooms and ayahuasca and these classic psychedelics that ketamine doesn't offer as much. Ketamine is good to do every now and then. I love to do it in combination with body work or massage because it has an anesthetic effect so I can work with practitioners that can get deep into tissue and fascia which can be very, very helpful for just creating more space in the body.

So I have very intentional use cases for it in specific contexts, but by and large, I try not to use it much because it is a disassociative, it can be addictive. If you do it consistently for a period of time, it can cause bladder issues. And so it's good to have sort of a every now and then approach to working with ketamine after maybe an initial treatment protocol. The initial treatment protocol typically calls for six to eight to 10 treatments within the first two to three.

Michelle (23:03)

Mm -hmm.

Paul Austin (23:22)

to four months, right? Pretty concentrated and focused initial treatment.

Michelle (23:25)

Yeah, and also, I mean, a lot of this obviously is medicinal and like any medicine, you should really be aware of like what you should do or not do. I definitely highly suggest talking to somebody qualified and obviously doing it through the

But what do you suggest if somebody's

Because it is something that like can be potentially, depending on like any trauma that you have in the past, it can potentially put you at a place of extreme vulnerability as well. What are some things that people should be aware of if they're looking into this?

Paul Austin (24:03)

You wanna find a great provider or a great practitioner, someone you can trust, someone that has an ethical practice, has integrity, is compassionate, is experienced ideally. And you wanna really interview the person who you're intending to sit with or the provider or the clinic or the retreat that you're planning to go to. You wanna know these people. So I typically tell people to focus on five aspects.

There should be an assessment process. They should do an intake on your personal background and history. You know, if you're on any medications, if you do have a history of certain, you know, trauma or alcohol, whatever it is, right? All of that is important to know and for you to communicate to them in an initial intake. Then they can assess whether they can support you or whether they need to refer you out to someone who can.

support you. So that's also an important element of working with the practitioners, you want to make sure you're in good care, you want to make sure you're in the hands of someone who you know can take care of you and facilitate and guide you through a safe and effective experience. So asking, kind of getting making sure there's an intake form, asking them what they do for preparation, do they offer preparation support, what type of preparation support.

What's the experience like? How much medicine? What medicine are we taking? How long does it last? Right? And what might be some of the different elements of it? And then what do they do for integration? So going back to that critical learning period that we talked about, how do they support the integration process? Do they offer support after a, you know, working with a psychedelic experience? And then what, what do they know about microdosing? That would be the fifth one. Can, can they help coach you through or support you?

Michelle (25:40)

it. I mean, this is definitely a fascinating topic, I will say. And I do think that it's, it has a huge place in the future of mind, body of medicine.

I just think that there's just so much potential here, which is why I really wanted to have you on. Like it was just definitely something that I was like, okay, this is going to be a really interesting conversation. That being said, I don't think that it's for everybody. And I definitely think that people need to like look into it, but it's,

educational. It's really important that people listen and hear that there is a potential for this. And I do think that it could be a huge asset to mind medicine and hoping that, obviously, it could be done in a way that can really benefit with qualified practitioners or people that really know what they're doing, because it is potent. That's why I say it's not for everybody. It is a very potent medicine. It's not something that should just be...

taken without thought. So yeah, if people want to learn more, what kind of resources do you offer and how can people find you?

Paul Austin (26:47)

Yeah, so if this, if this made anyone curious, so they want to dive in, learn more, we have, I've hosted my own podcast for years now. We have over 250 episodes. Uh, so you can jump into the podcast. You could, we have a bunch of guides on our homepage of the different substances. You can dive into those with a lot of the research and context on them. We have the directory that I mentioned. So all of that's available. And then if there are any people who want to take the next step, who want to go deeper.

We offer coaching support as well through a one -to -one coaching program called personalized psychedelic coaching. So reach out to us, let us know how we could support. This was a fun, quick hit, quick dive into psychedelics and microdosing. And if anyone wants to reach out to me individually, I'm on Instagram and Twitter quite a bit, PaulAustin3W, so find me there.

Michelle (27:39)

I'll have all the links shared in the episode notes if anybody wants to check it out. And Paul, this is a really interesting conversation. I really appreciate you coming on and elaborating and explaining more about the therapeutics of psychedelics.

Paul Austin (27:53)

Thank you, Michelle. This was a ton of fun.