THE WHOLESOME FERTILITY PODCAST
EP 297 What Our Historical Origins of Being Can Teach Us about Our Fertile Nature| Jenny Powers
Jenny Powers is an accomplished writer, scientist, and athlete. She earned her Ph.D. in microbiology and immunology from the University of Colorado, Denver; her journey as a collegiate basketball player taught her to push physical boundaries even as she continually expanded her intellectual horizons. She is deeply inspired by the exploration of human nature and the study of our ancestors; her role researching and co-authoring On the Origin of Being marks the culmination of this passion to date. Jenny balances her professional endeavors with her roles as a wife and mother in Colorado.
In this episode, we discussed the evolutionary mismatch between our genetics and contemporary lifestyles, how this mismatch impacts our health, and how learning our evolutionary journey can help us return to a state of thriving.
Her co-authored book, "On the Origin of Being" covers sleep, nutrition, work and rest, and our relationship with nature.
Takeaways:
Our circadian rhythms, which evolved over millions of years, play a crucial role in our health and fertility.
Prioritizing sleep and maintaining a regular sleep-wake cycle supports our natural rhythms and overall well-being.
Our modern diet, high in processed foods and sugar, is not aligned with our evolutionary needs.
Returning to whole, unprocessed foods can support our overall health and fertility. Processed fats and sugars are prevalent in the modern diet and can have negative effects on health.
Fiber is important for gut health and helps regulate insulin levels.
Understanding the evolutionary reasons behind our cravings can help us make healthier food choices.
Overworking and a lack of rest can have detrimental effects on our well-being.
Being present in the moment and finding work-life balance is essential for a healthy and fulfilling life.
Website: https://www.ontheoriginofbeing.com/
Check out Michelle’s latest book here: https://www.michelleoravitz.com/thewayoffertility
Follow Michelle on Instagram @thewholesomelotusfertility
Facebook https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/ for more tips and updates.
For more information about Michelle, visit: www.michelleoravitz.com
The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/
Transcript:
Michelle (00:00)
Welcome to the podcast, Jenny.
Jenny Powers (00:01)
Hi, thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.
Michelle (00:04)
Yes, I'm excited to talk to you about this amazing topic and your new book. And I would love for you to first start with introducing yourself and your background, how you got into writing this recent book about where we came from.
Jenny Powers (00:18)
Yeah, okay. Well, my name is Jenny Powers. I grew up as an Air Force brat, so I kind of moved all over the country and got to play basketball at the University of Colorado when I studied chemical engineering. But then I went back to school to study immunology and that's what I got my PhD in.
studying the innate immune system, macrophages and cell signaling and stuff like that. But I felt while it was interesting and fascinating, I felt like there was just, I wasn't doing what I think was in my heart, which was to be a writer. So when I had my kids, it was really kind of a nice time to make a break from academic science and move into trying to become a writer. And I actually started writing
not fiction books for kids, middle grade books for like eight to 12 year olds. So I have a couple of finished manuscripts. Nothing's been published yet. But, you know, I needed some sort of part time easy, you know, kind of fit in my schedule job. And it was incredible that I found this job opportunity with my co author, Luke Comer. He actually was looking for someone to research one of his other books, which is a nutrition book.
And when I called to interview with him, he's like, I already found a nutritionist. I'm like, man, you know, this is that's too bad. You know, this sounds like a really good fit for me. And he's like, well, what about this idea? And so something that he had been like holding in his head for the last 10 years. And it kind of started when he was looking at nutrition, like how far away are we from how how how we are living right now? How far away are we from how we evolved to live?
And it kind of applies to all so many different aspects of our lives. In this first book, we cover, you know, kind of the basics, sleep, nutrition, work and rest, and our relationship with nature. But we actually have other parts, other books in the series, hopefully that will come out that cover more like social groups and cultural things and all of these things. We're no longer living in accord with our biology and
it sounded fascinating to me because there are several parts of that where I had already started feeling not quite connected. So the one that really stood out to me when I was writing this was the work because I was a PhD student and then the postdoc and I worked 70 hours a week and I was exhausted and then I had also,
in my late teens, early twenties started suffering from depression and then feeling really connected to the environment, but then seeing what's happening to the environment. So I had already had some of these things like really affecting my life. And when Luke presented me with this idea, he's like, well, what do you think about researching this and collaborating with me for a book on this? I was like, this sounds amazing because not only do I get to use
Michelle (03:30)
Yeah.
Jenny Powers (03:34)
my experience as a researcher, but I get to write and I get to write about something that I grew more and more passionate about as I researched it. I like to think that I was, I'm kind of just like a reader at the very beginning when you pick up the book, you don't know anything, right? And so, but so when I picked up this project, it was a total blank slate and it was amazing to be able to have the freedom.
to research and write until I learned so much about myself and about why maybe I was feeling depressed and the things that I can do to change. And it felt really good to be able to bring this into the world. And it's been a really exciting ride. You kind of don't necessarily plan something, but you kind of like take the next step. And then there's these like little breadcrumbs that you follow. And...
I had no idea when I started this project that I'd be on podcasts and we'd have a book in the world. And it's just been an amazing, amazing ride.
Michelle (04:35)
I bet. And I'll tell you, I mean, personally, I feel very drawn to this topic and I'll tell you why. I mean, this is a fertility podcast. I'm very much into that, but Chinese medicine is really my background. And Chinese medicine is really, you know, it's interesting because you look kind of back in the history and it's very old. You know, Chinese medicine has been around for thousands of years.
Jenny Powers (04:44)
Mm -hmm.
Right.
Michelle (05:00)
and they still don't really know the origins exactly. They estimate about 3000, but they think it's longer. But there was a lot of book burning that has happened over the years. And it's really based on Taoism, which translates as the way. And the way is living in accordance with the laws of nature and how over time, like when we lose that direction,
it can cause disease, dis -ease disease. And yeah, it's really fascinating. So I think it's really cool because this is kind of like modern research on something old, but like coming at it from a different angle, but similar, but it's deriving really at the same essence, which is.
Jenny Powers (05:29)
Right, right.
Yeah, it's at the heart of what you do. Yeah. How the laws of nature, what did nature do to get us here? Because nature, I like to call it nature and evolution, they were like biohacking, right? That's like this big catchphrase nowadays, like biohacking, but you're making small incremental changes over time and then see like what...
Michelle (05:58)
Yes.
Mm -hmm. Yeah.
Jenny Powers (06:15)
improves how you feel and what doesn't. And so that's what natural selection does. Like the things that improved our survival and improved our, you know, our wellbeing and our equilibrium are the things that stayed and the things that didn't serve us, you know, got selected out. And so I really feel like nature knew what it was doing and it had millions of years and lots of small little incremental changes that made us who we were.
Michelle (06:17)
Mm -hmm.
Jenny Powers (06:43)
for various reasons, for all of the environmental selection and what we needed to do to survive. And yeah, I totally see the ancient, how ancient medicine, ancient peoples, indigenous peoples, how they approach wellbeing. It's not just treating symptoms, it's treating the holistic, the whole body.
all of these different things that I think thankfully now more and more people like yourself and your functional medicine doctors and holistic doctors, you know, people who kind of bring the old and kind of combine it with the new. I think that is really where healthcare needs to go.
Michelle (07:22)
Yeah, it's really fascinating. And I think to myself, like just really how nature is. And what we've been seeing is that fertility has been on a decline and nobody really understands exactly what it is that's causing this for men and women. And there are many ideas of just environmental factors, toxins, like EMFs we don't even see, you know, we're not even aware of what's going on. It's not natural to the body. The body's not used to it. Like our DNA doesn't...
Jenny Powers (07:40)
Mm -hmm.
Michelle (07:50)
respond well to it because it doesn't know what it is and it doesn't know how to react. So really the basis of Taoism and all of that is that we in our nature are fertile. Nature is fertile. There's a seed in everything. Everything that grows has a seed because it wants to keep reproducing. And yeah, it's pretty fascinating. And I think to myself, some of the things that you guys wrote about were things that I talk about like sleep.
Jenny Powers (07:53)
Right.
I like that.
Michelle (08:18)
and the circadian rhythm. And so I would love to really start picking your brain on this because it's really fascinating. It's like really kind of coming home to ourselves and our, you know, the origin of being going back to that origin and how we can do that. Sometimes it feels like an uphill battle.
Jenny Powers (08:19)
Mm -hmm.
Yeah.
Michelle (08:35)
So even though fertility has been on a decline, that shouldn't make us lose hope because there are definitely things that we can do to bring ourselves back to our origins. So with that being said, I just want to always give a message of hope because there's always something that you can do. It might take a little extra work just because like the stream is a little strong right now in a certain direction that may be kind of moving us away, but there's definitely things that we can do.
Jenny Powers (08:44)
Exactly. Yeah.
Right.
Michelle (09:03)
And this is why I love your work so much because it sheds light on things that I think are so important. And so let's, let's cover all of it. Let's start with like the first part. And I believe the first part of it is sleep.
Jenny Powers (09:14)
Yeah, yeah.
Yes, that's the kind of the first fundamental way of being that we cover. It was interesting because I've listened to a couple of your podcasts and one stood out in particular to me, the one with Alison Locke. You talked about all kinds of environmental things and sleep and I found myself like nodding along because I was like, well, yeah, health contributes to fertility. But then learning about what you guys talked about in that podcast, I'm like, my gosh, so many.
Michelle (09:31)
Mm -hmm.
Jenny Powers (09:47)
of the things that we talk about in our book can be applied to fertility. Because it's just in order to be fertile and like you said, to access what we're naturally supposed to do, we need to be in a state of well -being and we need to be able to be in equilibrium. Because that's what nature designed us to do. And the very first thing when you started talking about circadian rhythms, I'm like, yes, totally. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Michelle (09:52)
Totally.
I loved it when I read it in your book. I was like, yeah, I felt the same way.
Jenny Powers (10:16)
Because so many people don't necessarily understand that the very first organisms on Earth evolved for circadian rhythms. Because in the sea where everything started, the organisms knew, like, OK, well, what time of day are the nutrients most available? What time of day is the safest to undergo cell division?
You know, you don't want to necessarily undergo cell division when you're at the surface, when the sun shining on you and you might get, you know, DNA damage. So those cells evolved to respond to the rhythms of the earth, because at the very beginning of time, at the very beginning of the earth, there was night and day. You know, we had we had sunlight and we had well, later we had the moon. But so like from the very, very origins of life, we had this this rhythm that
tied us to the earth. And so even with the smallest cell. And so every living thing has circadian rhythms, has genes. I mean, someone won the Nobel Prize for, I think it was for medicine, discovering that these genes that regulate the rhythms of your body are in everything. And what's interesting is circadian rhythms are
Michelle (11:38)
everything in your body or just in nature.
Jenny Powers (11:40)
Well, everything in nature, but also, I think what's important is some people like, well, we're evolved past that. Like humans don't have circadian rhythms, you know, because we're sophisticated beings. And what's interesting is we haven't evolved away from circadian rhythms, but our culture has pushed us away and our technology has pushed us away. So we might not think that, we don't need these to tell us what to do because.
But the problem is our society and our individuals, we override what our body is trying to tell us. We override the signals that circadian rhythms are trying to give us. So.
Michelle (12:19)
You're speaking my language. I literally say that all the time. We override it. It's, wow, I just love this.
Jenny Powers (12:24)
Yeah. That's awesome. Yeah, I feel like I mean, that's one of the main things in the book is, yes, the modern world is great and modern culture brings so many great things, but we have to be aware of like our bio, like we have to be aware of what our bodies are telling us. And people are so they're so focused on.
the future, or they're so distracted, or they want to stay up and watch another three episodes on Netflix and not sleep, or stay up and work until 2 in the morning. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And like you said, it all starts with a good night's sleep. And what was interesting when we were studying this is that a lot of the
Michelle (12:59)
Yeah
Yeah, those things are designed to be addictive. I feel like it's like the fast food of like, of shows.
Jenny Powers (13:19)
Indigenous peoples who are still surviving in these far out, you know, they've been pushed to the fringes, to not even the best, the most hospitable places on earth. They're kind of been pushed to kind of, you know, the places that we didn't want, like the modern people didn't want. But studying them, it's not like they got so much sleep and it's not like they, but what was really important was
they were completely in tune with the sun rising and the sun setting and their bodies responded to that. So when you think about nowadays, you know, we get up and we kind of have, there's someone in our book that I can't remember who was, it's like we live a twilight existence, right? We never get the same amount of light that the sun would give us, but we get it all straight through the day, right? Whereas if we were living,
according to our natures, we get lots of sunlight in the morning, really intense bright sunlight in the morning. And then it goes down. And then once the sun goes down, there's no exposure except firelight and moonlight. And what was interesting about what I love to know about blue light, because blue light is this big thing right now, right? But but the reason why we're so reactive to blue light is because that
is the wavelength of light that penetrated the sea. And so that's where life started. So the reason why we could have been attuned to any wavelength of light, but we were attuned to the blue light because of where our origins were. So getting lots of blue light, sunlight in the morning, but then not getting blue light after it goes down, after the sun goes down, it helps our bodies like reset, like, okay.
This is when our melatonin hormone is going to go up. And then once the sun goes down, the melatonin starts to be produced. And then there's this window where you're tired. And if you're listening to your body, that's when you go to sleep. And then if you're in tune with the Earth, the Indigenous people that were studied, they woke up at the same time every day and got that bright sunlight in the morning.
So it was just really amazing to see like these people, they sleep on the ground or on some skins and they sleep on their arms. And if you look at the difference, I think there's a picture in the book, like our beds are so comfortable, but they didn't even know what insomnia was because they didn't really experience it. It wasn't a problem. They were so in tune with the natural rhythms of the earth and they listened to their bodies.
Michelle (15:59)
Mm -hmm.
Jenny Powers (16:07)
that they just didn't have problems with sleep. And so that was a huge like eye -opening thing to me. Like you think like, humans have always struggled with sleep. And there are some people who struggle, but that what's really cool about people who have different genetics, different circadian genetics is that, you know, those night owls, people who can't fall asleep till late in the evening and have really have trouble getting up.
Michelle (16:14)
Yeah.
Thank you.
Jenny Powers (16:36)
that was an evolutionary advantage because there needed to be people to be sentinels to keep the rest of us safe. And because we had these amazing brains, we needed to have really good, high quality, deep sleep. And some of the reasons why, you know, maybe animals in the wild don't necessarily get really deep sleep is because
Michelle (16:44)
Mm -hmm.
Jenny Powers (17:04)
they have to be kind of aware of their surroundings. But humans, we got together into big groups and we protected each other. And so as our brains evolved and as our sleep evolved, we were able to get really dense, good quality sleep in a very short time. And because when you're asleep, you're pretty helpless, you know, especially some of the cycles of sleep, you're like parallel, you're literally paralyzed, your body's paralyzed.
Michelle (17:24)
Mm -hmm. Yeah.
Jenny Powers (17:32)
So the people who are early risers or late, you know, the night owls, they're actually helped us survive because they were alert at times when the other people weren't. So I've talked to a researcher and he said, well, oftentimes people who have these delayed sleep phases or advanced sleep phases, once they realize that it's evolutionary and like, it really helps them, like put it into perspective. Nothing's wrong with them.
Michelle (17:44)
It's fascinating.
Jenny Powers (18:01)
It's just part of how they evolved. So all that stuff just fascinates me.
Michelle (18:02)
Right.
That's interesting. That is so fascinating. Yeah. It's really interesting. But as you're telling me, it's really the regularity of that. It's that pulse, that rhythm and sticking with that rhythm. And interestingly enough, there's definitely a correlation with circadian rhythm, dysfunction and menstrual cycle health. So, and that's kind of our larger rhythm for women. And that would be an interesting topic for you to kind of go into is maybe make
series on this with women's health and the cycles and how that impacts it because it's really fascinating. I mean, we need that rhythm like our bodies really respond to that rhythm of nature. And once it has that really intact, then our bodies get more regulated. I had the same thing myself and this is how I got into Chinese medicine.
Jenny Powers (18:34)
Yeah.
Okay.
Michelle (18:53)
is because I had irregular periods, but I also had irregular sleep and so many irregularities. And I feel like it's almost like a train getting derailed. You have to put it back on track and then have that rhythm set again.
Jenny Powers (19:06)
Right? That's exactly right. And what's amazing is that, so in the book, we don't necessarily talk about fertility, but some of the reasons why we have these diseases of modernity, and I guess you could say like infertility and endometriosis, what you and Alison talked about, which was fascinating to me, was that all the things that women struggle with, PMS, pain,
mood swings, all of those things are kind of unnatural. Like the big, the severe symptoms of menstruation that women get are unnatural. And that like blew my mind. So, but, but we don't necessarily talk about fertility, but inflammation, stress, you know, cortisol levels, your gut health, all of these things we talk about in the book and all of those things that you talk about.
Michelle (19:45)
Mm -hmm.
Jenny Powers (20:04)
impact your fertility. So getting a good cycle start or getting back on track is like a really good place to start. Because you know when you don't get a good night's sleep. You feel tired and being tired for your whole day just sets everything back. You can't eat properly when you're tired. You don't want to exercise when you're tired.
Michelle (20:26)
Yeah. And when you're overtired, it's hard to sleep. That's the weird thing. It's kind of hard to get back into that rhythm like one way or the other.
Jenny Powers (20:30)
Yeah.
Because your body is in a stress state. When you have a sleep deficit, your body starts to be in more of a fight or flight. And then your body keeps you awake because there's like, well, there must be a reason why I have to be awake right now. So I'm going to help you. I'm going to help you be awake. And all the diseases that come from, I heard you talk about shift work. People who do shift work have infertility.
Michelle (20:38)
Yeah, it's very heightened.
Mm -hmm. Yeah.
Jenny Powers (21:02)
You know, shift work has been classified as a carcinogen because of their dysregulated circadian rhythms. Like humans weren't meant to work at night. That's not, that doesn't tell people like, cause shift work is really important. There's so many professions that it's important to, but people who do that just need to be aware so they can compensate for that. It's, you know, it's not like, shift work bad. You know, shift work is vital for some people.
Michelle (21:05)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Right, exactly.
Mm -hmm.
Jenny Powers (21:28)
But they need to know that that is going to predispose them to some things and they need to take preventative measures to make sure that their shift works and their circadian rhythms aren't, or their circadian rhythms being not in sync with the earth. They just need to remember that they need to try to mitigate some of the effects from that.
Michelle (21:46)
Mm -hmm.
So when they have breaks getting like more early morning sunlight or something to kind of like quickly anchor them out, like earthing, putting your feet on the earth, like how you were saying, I thought about that when you were saying people used to sleep on the earth and how that lowers inflammation. And then also the natural aspect of really connecting with like soil and the microbiomes that impact our gut health. So let's talk a little bit on the nutrition.
Jenny Powers (21:57)
Yeah.
Mm -hmm, yeah.
Okay.
Michelle (22:19)
aspect of it. So what are some of the things that you uncovered that are really more natural to us? And I saw, I noticed that you talked all the highly processed food and how that is like really not in line with our own digestive system and our body's ability to process them.
Jenny Powers (22:36)
Yeah, well, if in the book we talk about how from when we have the common ancestor with chimpanzees and bonobos. So we talk about kind of what their diet would be like and how changes in the environment changed our diet. And so, and then changes in the environment and then changes in our diet actually were some of the things that allowed us to evolve bigger brains because
when the environment changed, when the great rift came in Africa and split Africa into East Africa and West Africa, the East African side, the climate changed so much. It lost trees, it became more savanna, it became more grassland. And in order to survive, the animals, the early primates that were stuck on that side needed to evolve or they wouldn't survive. They lost their tree food, which was mostly fruits.
leaves and things like that. Food became farther apart. So we lost our ability to climb through trees, but we gained bipedalism and stature and being able to hold things in our hands when we walked. And we needed to find new sources of carbohydrates. So we started finding really high quality dense carbohydrates in like roots and tubers and things like that.
we really didn't need when we lived in the trees because we had all this fruit to feed our brains. But some of the cultural things that we needed, like now, so now all the animals, there were bigger animals and, you know, on the savanna. And so we had to increase our intellect in order to be able to eat, you know, eat the larger animals and to figure out how to dig up those tubers. So our brain size evolved, our intellect evolved.
But then in order to support that brain and our intellect, we had to find the foods that supported the evolution. So like the story of nutrition and the story of evolution, especially the evolution of our brains is so tied together. So, you know, it's like if you talk about nutrition, you have to talk about the evolution of our nutrition if you want to talk about the evolution of our bodies, because our big brain and another...
Michelle (24:52)
Mm -hmm.
Jenny Powers (24:55)
reason why we got big brains is because we were able to, our guts were able to shrink. So we have very short guts compared to other primates. And that's for two reasons. One is you were able to, all the nutrients and resources that are required to maintain gut, your gut can now be shifted over and maintain your brain. But we had shorter guts. So we needed to find
Michelle (25:17)
Mm -hmm.
Jenny Powers (25:21)
more energy dense food that was easier to digest. So we needed to find, we started to eat more and more animal meat and animal fat because those are easier to digest. Plants have things that are like don't eat being here. We need to kind of get rid of some of those things. But again, we got to use our intellect to learn how to hunt these bigger creatures, but also to process food. Like we, you can't eat a potato raw.
Michelle (25:37)
huh.
Jenny Powers (25:50)
You know, but we learned how to process food to make it easier to digest. So our guts could remain small and we'd still get all the nutrients that we need, but our brains will still also get what it needs. So we started to process foods. And when I mean process, it doesn't mean like the modern day processing of foods, because when our ancestors processed foods, you know, cooked it or grounded or fermented it, they still ate the entire food. They still ate the whole food.
Michelle (25:51)
Mm -hmm.
Yeah.
Mm -hmm.
Jenny Powers (26:20)
There was nothing that got thrown out. And so they processed the food to make it easier to digest. All of the nutrients of the food came into our bodies. And for our gut health, that was really important. The fiber was really important that we would eat. And so now these ultra processed foods that we have nowadays, there's just no fiber in them. It's just sugar.
Michelle (26:20)
Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Jenny Powers (26:46)
The consumption of this much sugar, it doesn't have any precedence. Yeah, and yeah, let's not even start talking about all the artificial stuff that gets put in there. So yeah, you were saying like our bodies just don't know how to handle it because over the last 300 years, so the agricultural revolution changed eating forever. But I feel like in the last 200 years since the industrial revolution, things have changed so quickly.
Michelle (26:50)
and chemicals.
Yeah. Yeah.
Jenny Powers (27:15)
I mean, we're eating, I think we went from eating like four pounds of sugar a year, like 300 years ago, and now people eat 150 to 200 pounds of sugar a year, which is just totally crazy. And something you talk about in the book, it's like we have this evolutionary mismatch because genes can't evolve that quickly, right? We can't rely on our bodies to adapt to this much sugar intake.
Michelle (27:26)
That's just crazy. Yeah.
Jenny Powers (27:45)
But something that's really cool about humans is a lot of these big things in our life, big hurdles that we needed to get over, we didn't need to evolve because we have our intellect and because we have culture. And so we could bypass evolution to fix problems. So what the good news about this is we can still bypass our lack of evolution to fix this problem, right? Because if we know
But the way we're eating, our bodies literally have not adapted. It takes hundreds of thousands of years for adaptations to make its way through an entire population. But if we know it, we can intellectually make the changes we need to make. So that's the good news. We don't have to be like, well, I wish our bodies would catch up so I can continue to eat this highly processed food. No, just stop eating it.
Michelle (28:35)
you
Jenny Powers (28:40)
eat the whole foods. And then you don't have to worry about, you know, that your body's not, that your body's mismatched because now you're now living more in alignment with what your body wants.
Michelle (28:41)
Yeah. Right.
Yeah, I mean, it's just so important because it is something that a lot of people are talking about now. Luckily, I think it's becoming like more front and center. For a little while there, nobody even paid attention to it. And it was also as interesting because people were like afraid of fats and everything with sugar. For a I think we were completely as a society blind to it. Until recently, I think people are starting to wake up to it.
Jenny Powers (29:01)
Yeah.
Right?
Right?
Yeah, yeah, and when those studies came out, that demonized fat.
Michelle (29:27)
they were funded by sugar companies.
Jenny Powers (29:29)
Exactly, yeah, because its own findings came out about sugar, but for some reason, the establishment focused on fat. And so, and there is, we do have a problem with fat, not because we're eating necessarily too much of it, it's because we're eating all the wrong kinds of fats, in the wrong ratios. And so, but also we're eating like, the fats we're eating are like,
Michelle (29:41)
Mm -hmm.
right trans fats and yeah.
Jenny Powers (29:55)
processed fats, you know, vegetable, all these oils that are processed, that you stick some of that oil and all this processed sugar together and pretty much 90 % of the things in the grocery store are made up of these things. The sugar that we never used to eat and the type of fat that we never used to eat, all of these processed fats. So, yeah, I'm glad that now sugar is coming out as being a villain in and of itself, but it's also to say, well, we need, our bodies need sugar.
Michelle (30:24)
Mm -hmm.
Jenny Powers (30:24)
But we need to have it in a form that digests slower, that also that goes into our bloodstream slower, that helps our insulin levels be more regulated. And we need to have the fiber that's still in there to help our gut health. Because if we just eat straight processed sugar all the time, it's like, I read somewhere, it's like, you know, a fertilizer runoff causes these algae blooms. Like one type of algae just takes over an entire ecosystem because it's
Michelle (30:28)
Right.
Right.
hehe
Jenny Powers (30:53)
if that's the one algae that like really liked that fertilizer. But if we're just eating sugar, all the beneficial gut bacteria, they're like, no, I want fiber. But this one gut bacteria is like sugar, sugar, give me more sugar. So you lose, you know, one dominates and you lose the diversity of the bacteria in your gut.
Michelle (30:56)
Right.
Yeah.
Well, when you were talking before and you were saying about how they ate the whole fruit or the foods and they didn't take parts, it wasn't like, like it was really eaten with a fiber. So usually the things that have naturally sugar have fiber as well. Most of the time you'll find, you know, fruits, most of them have fiber. So having even the juice of just natural fruits.
Jenny Powers (31:31)
Yeah.
Right?
Michelle (31:41)
is not quite the same as having it as its whole, like in its whole nature.
Jenny Powers (31:45)
Right, right, exactly. Because, I mean, it's funny because our whole goal, evolutionary goal, in order to feed our brains with our shorter guts, we needed nutrient -dense, easily digestible food, right? But we took it way too far because when we were doing it right, it was just us preparing the food, right? As soon as we had the technological advancements, for now, now we don't prepare the food.
and the industrial complex prepares this food, it's no longer in our control. And so what sells most? The things that are most palatable, the things that are energy dense, and the things that are easy to digest. And so with the advent of technology and the Industrial Revolution, we took that evolutionary goal way too far because it was a goal of ours.
Michelle (32:18)
Yeah.
Mm -hmm.
Jenny Powers (32:41)
There is a reason why sugar is addictive because when we ate sugar, as our ancestors ate sugar, you would receive dopamine because you needed to have glucose in your body. Your brain needs it to function. Your brain just uses sugar. Some of the other parts of your body use other things to fuel it, fats and things like that to fuel it.
Michelle (32:54)
Mm -hmm.
Jenny Powers (33:09)
primarily, but our brains need sugar. So there's an evolutionary reason why sugar is addictive. We just couldn't get our hands on it. We ate honey occasionally and we ate fruit. But this much sugar and process and basically like white flour, all the fiber is stripped out of it. That's pretty much just eating sugar because of the way that it just gets absorbed into your bloodstream.
Michelle (33:17)
That's interesting.
Yeah.
Yeah, it's empty calories. It's just not really like, it doesn't give you much bang for your buck at all.
Jenny Powers (33:42)
Right, right, right. But it does give you a release of dopamine and you feel good because we need to have that. But now again, we needed to have this instinct, but now we have our intellect. And so like, yes, we need to have a well -roundeddiet with carbohydrates and fats and proteins. But now we know intellectually, I'm craving that because I evolved to crave it.
Michelle (33:47)
Yep, right.
Mm -hmm.
Jenny Powers (34:10)
But I don't need to eat it. Like I can eat other things that gives me the same thing. And I find them, and I've found this and I've heard lots of people say once they start eating whole foods, the cravings for the potato chips and the brownies and the cookies, you just don't have those anymore. Right?
Michelle (34:10)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Mm -hmm.
Correct. Yeah, it feels like I think the difficult thing is that it feels like it's going to be forever. The suffering or the discomfort of the cravings or the withdrawal, it feels like it's going to be like that forever. It's really not. I would say two weeks, about two weeks, maybe three, but like really even the first week is a big one. And then once you get through that, you're feeling better. And then once you overcome that, it doesn't feel like anything. You don't miss it. So, and it's just...
Jenny Powers (34:36)
Right.
No. Yeah.
Right.
I don't, yeah, it's pretty amazing. I don't miss it. And then when I do, you know, have to have dessert, you know, when I'm out with friends or, you know, special occasions, I don't feel very good the next day. Like I enjoy eating it. But sometimes it's almost like, whoa, it's too sweet. But then, you know, you just have to realize, yeah, it's okay to indulge once in a while, but know that you're going to feel awful. But that also just reinforces that you're doing the right thing. Yeah.
Michelle (34:58)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
it totally does. Yeah. No, I have a lot of my patients when we talk about diet and then they go to a cruise and that's when they feel it. They're like, my God, I never realized like how this made me feel. And then they feel the difference. And I'm like, that's actually a good thing. I'm happy you went through that because it really shows you like you could really legitimately feel the difference from feeling good. When you're used to feeling bad, you almost don't know the difference until you feel good again. And that's kind of like another interesting. Yeah. You don't know better.
Jenny Powers (35:29)
What?
Right?
Exactly, you don't know any better.
Michelle (35:50)
But it's crazy how your body resists too much sugar. And then it starts to get insulin resistance. Like it's literally your body's like, whoa, like stop. And it kind of creates whatever ecosystem response to that. But it just shows you that your body doesn't like it.
Jenny Powers (36:09)
Right? The majority of the things that people go to the doctor for now, humans never used to get. I mean, humans got communicable diseases, but now we have all of these non -communicable diseases, you know, the metabolic syndromes, diabetes, obesity, heart disease, hypertension, all of these things are solely due to lifestyle.
Michelle (36:34)
Mm -hmm.
Jenny Powers (36:36)
Some people who have genetic predispositions to things. So that doesn't help that the lifestyle that's presented to us, the lifestyle that's marketed to us doesn't help those people either. They have a worst time of it if they're genetically predisposed to some of these diseases. But those diseases just, we never used to die of those diseases. No worries.
Michelle (36:59)
Hold on one second. Bye. My daughter.
Jenny Powers (37:05)
So that was another thing. I'm like, you're right.
People, if it was a disease that affected everyone in their childhood, we would have evolved. So whatever predisposition to that disease, we would have evolved away from it because the goal of evolution is to reproduce. And if you don't make it to reproductive age, you don't reproduce. So if these problems happened early in childhood,
they would have been evolved out because you wanna get to the point where you can reproduce and pass your genes on. But all of these diseases of modernity happen after, you know, after you're fertile, after you have kids for the most part. A lot of it kind of starts, your lifestyle starts, but that's why it's just so prevalent because it doesn't affect our evolutionary success. Evolutionary success is to have offspring, right?
Michelle (37:52)
Right, right.
Jenny Powers (38:04)
So it's affecting us later in life and it's affecting our quality of life. So like, yeah, we might still live to be 75, but how many of those years are really good years? Like when do you start having these debilitating illnesses that affect your quality of life? So the hunter gatherers and our ancestors, you know, who we have models of today, if they get past childhood and
Michelle (38:17)
Yeah, that's true.
Jenny Powers (38:33)
aren't forced to leave the land and be people, become who they're not with their lifestyle changes. They live very, very healthily into their seventies. And that because they're so healthy, they're contributing members of the group. They're not debilitated to the point where people have to give them.
Michelle (38:45)
Yeah.
Jenny Powers (39:00)
resources, they're still in the mix, they're still contributing, and that's because they're healthy.
Michelle (39:08)
Yeah, amazing. It's interesting how, I mean, just kind of being in your nature, your body responds to living kind of in accordance to the Tao. It's really like, it comes full circle to that. And then speaking of also just balance, let's talk about work and rest and how much we as Americans and really modern culture, I think pretty much anywhere
Jenny Powers (39:18)
Yeah.
Michelle (39:33)
overworking and there's barely any time to rest people. I actually just spoke to my cousin. She's been having gut issues and I told her eat earlier because she's been eating like really late every day. She goes, I can't. She goes, by the time I get home at 7 PM, she goes, I cannot leave earlier. I'm like, what? It just sounds so crazy. So she comes home really late and she wants to cook and have dinner with her husband. So it's
Jenny Powers (39:52)
Yeah.
Michelle (39:59)
really tough because I mean, it's just insane hours. Like, so how do you even work around that? But yeah, so talk about that and what you've discovered.
Jenny Powers (40:03)
Yeah. Yeah.
Well, I think what's interesting about our ancestors is they didn't have to worry about work and life balance because it was integrated, right? Their work life and their home life, it was all together. So they considered there, and it was another way of looking at it holistically. Like now we think we have our work and then we have our home, but their work was part of their everyday. But they also,
Michelle (40:30)
Yeah.
Jenny Powers (40:36)
What was really cool is that they didn't, they worked until they had what they needed and then they stopped. It was a very, someone coined this phrase, an immediate return economy because they didn't, they had such a different concept of time than we do. And they had such, you know, they lived off the earth and they had, they knew that whatever they needed, they would be provided that they didn't.
They didn't necessarily plan for the future. They worked until their needs were met. They listened to their bodies and like, okay, I'm not hungry anymore. I'm kind of tired. I'm going to go rest. You know, agriculture changed all that because now we went from an immediate return economy to a delayed return economy. You planted crops and then you waited and everything depended on this future outcome.
Michelle (41:14)
Mm -hmm.
Jenny Powers (41:30)
And so in today's world, we work now and we get a paycheck later. So it's another kind of way that we delayed our return on our investment, I guess. And so the way we look at work now, we never work in the present. We're always working. There's a deadline. There's this, we have this, we have this. And so in the book, we talk about how
Michelle (41:36)
Mm -hmm.
So interesting, yeah.
Jenny Powers (41:57)
rest and meditation really helps because we can't go back to an immediate return economy. You can't just be like, I've made enough money. You know, I'm going to quit my job or, you know, I'm going to go home when my hours are this. How you approach work can really change the outcomes of work. Like if you're if you stay in the present moment, not only can you you lower your stress, but you can also see what's really important if you're worried about some future.
Michelle (42:04)
Yeah.
Jenny Powers (42:27)
project, you're not going to be very efficient in the moment doing what you need to do. So it's kind of a mindset shift. Also, I think our society puts emphasis and puts people on the pedestal who work long hours and who make a lot of money. And so that and who have a lot of stuff. Yeah, we have
Michelle (42:36)
Yeah, definitely.
It conditions, it conditions you.
Jenny Powers (42:54)
I mean, I think I read it and it's in the book. An entire, I don't know, group of hunter gatherers had fewer possessions than a single farmer after the agricultural revolution. They just didn't have stuff. They didn't. And so once you have stuff, now you're like, you know, you need to buy more stuff and to buy more stuff, you need to make more money. And to keep up with the Joneses, you need to make even more money so you can buy more expensive stuff.
Michelle (43:21)
Mm -hmm.
Jenny Powers (43:21)
and buy a bigger house and then fill that house up with stuff. And then your house doesn't fit your stuff. So now you have a storage unit where you have to put your stuff. And so our emphasis on what's important in our society and what our society values is causing this work epidemic. I also think that people need to learn from an early age not to tie their identity with their achievements.
Michelle (43:24)
Right.
Jenny Powers (43:49)
tie their identity with work. Because I think we live in a place where it's kind of a meritocracy, where the people who are successful...
are just people and they're just as good, you know, the people who aren't successful, who are working their butts off every day, but enjoying their life, they're still these, they're successful people, right? They're not necessarily like making millions of dollars, but we idolize those people who make so much money. When really they might not have the best work -life balance. Probably not. I mean, I've never heard someone say,
Michelle (44:26)
Yeah, it's interesting.
Jenny Powers (44:29)
you know, on your deathbed. I wish I had had more money, you know? Yeah.
Michelle (44:32)
Right. It's 100 % true. Well, that's because it's an illusion. It's this illusion, you know, and the ancients talked about that, the samsara and the illusion. It's like a matrix. We're living in a matrix. I mean, that's, you know, it kind of is because it's, it's the set code of ways of being, and it causes us to continue moving into the future or thinking about the past and never being present. And the ancients always talked about now.
Jenny Powers (44:44)
Yeah.
Michelle (45:00)
becoming more present, more alive. And even with meditation, we know that it really makes your body work better. This presence, being present, having your attention is like gold. Having your attention in the now actually infuses your body with more vitality. And if you think about the ancients, I mean, their focus was 100 % when they were hunting or whatever they were doing, they were present, like really, really fully present.
Jenny Powers (45:29)
Yeah, exactly. And it's almost a survival. It was a survival mechanism. You had to be present so you could be... And this is kind of dovetails really nicely into the nature chapter because they were present in the moment and they were present in their environment, right? They could say, there was a deer came through here. There's that broken branch or they hear something.
Michelle (45:46)
Mm -hmm.
Jenny Powers (45:55)
you know, I think that's a predator, we need to go this way. Or they're so attuned to their bodies and to the world around them that they lived in the present moment. I mean, there's this stress reduction theory of nature, that nature, natural environments lower your stress and promote recovery because...
Yes, it has information, but has low levels of information that you need to be processing at all times. But when you are downtown in a big city walking around, there's cars driving by and there's people and there's loud noises. And so your senses are overwhelmed with all of these things to process. And now, where's my phone? Now we are overwhelmed by all of this information, all of the things that are just right at our fingertips.
Michelle (46:33)
loud noises.
Yes.
Mm -hmm.
Jenny Powers (46:50)
So no wonder we're stressed, you know, no wonder. Yeah, we're overwhelmed all the time.
Michelle (46:53)
We're overwhelmed. It's like too much, too much information all the time and it overwhelms our, our minds. And that's why one of the things that I think is actually releasing is important, especially now. So when we're meditating or releasing kind of like the excess doing less, getting more into this yin phase of less and more harmony and more quiet, that's why we need it because we are in such a young active mode.
all the time, nonstop, 24 -7. And that's considered good. I remember, because I lived, I worked in New York and it was like the city that never sleeps. That's amazing. It's like the best thing ever. And I remember what it did to my nervous system. It wasn't good.
Jenny Powers (47:29)
Great. People brag about it.
Thanks.
Yeah, I remember when I was in graduate school, we used to compare, well, how late were you up last night? I was in the lab until two in the morning. Well, I didn't even go to sleep last night. It's the hustle culture that's idolized. And what needs to be idolized is the slower culture where you actually enjoy at the moment by moment. I've noticed people always say, time is moving so fast. It's because we don't spend any time in the present moment.
Michelle (47:46)
Yeah.
Mm -hmm.
Jenny Powers (48:08)
we're spending a time in the future, we're spending time in the past and very few people actually experience every moment in the present. And I think if we experience moments in the present, time would seem slower. Time wouldn't seem to be just rushing by, rushing by, rushing by. And I know when you have kids, it seems that way because you actually see time passing as they're growing up. But I found that I feel like
Michelle (48:17)
Mm -hmm.
Yeah.
Jenny Powers (48:37)
When I'm less distracted, when I'm more relaxed, when I'm in the present moment, that's when you live. There's no other place to experience life except in the present moment. Everything else is just in your imagination, in your mind.
Michelle (48:52)
Yeah. And when I work with people, I always talk about that. Like, because if I can, if you can get as present as possible, and it's hard, it's hard when you're trying to get to a goal, you know, it could be the goal is pregnancy or whatever that goal is. But if you can work on getting as present as possible, you are actually infusing life force into your moment to moment. You're more alive. When you're more alive, your body's more alive. When your body's more alive, you're more fertile. So these are things that
Jenny Powers (49:15)
Yeah. yeah.
Michelle (49:21)
timeless again, you know, things that we've been told for centuries. And it's always go within, go, you know, where we have that innate knowing that connection with our earth that like, typically our bodies communicating with us. I mean, this is such a fascinating conversation. I could talk to you for hours because it's just, there's so much to uncover. I mean, we're really literally talking about the nature of humanity and like where we came from. And there's just so much. And I can see why you would want to do a series on this.
Jenny Powers (49:23)
Mm -hmm.
I...
Right?
Michelle (49:51)
And I would be fascinated by that in the future as well. But for people who are listening and they're like, this sounds really interesting. How can they find you and get to the book?
Jenny Powers (50:03)
Yeah, yeah, well, we have a website, www .ontheoriginofbeing .com. There's a link to places there. You can really buy it anywhere, any online retailer that you like, Amazon, Barnes and Noble. There's other places. I know people want to support smaller businesses and things like that. But it's available on online retailers. We are...
We have our website and we're also, we have a Facebook page at On The Origin of Being and I'm most active on Instagram at On The Origin of Being. That's where we're, I try to post at least once a day, little tidbits or news or like you said, this topic is so fertile. I don't feel like I'm ever gonna run out of things to post about because even if I'm posting about sleep, there's a million things I could post about sleep.
Michelle (50:52)
Yeah.
Jenny Powers (50:57)
There's a million things that they post about nutrition. So it and what's what's been amazing is I was off social media for 10, at least 10 years because it wasn't good for mental health. And when you have a book coming out, you kind of have to be out there a little bit. And so I was really worried. But what I found is there is this community of people like you have like minded people who who see
who have their eyes open, who see like, this is the way we're living is killing us. And they are actually, they really, really care about other people and their health. And they really, really care about the environment. And so I feel like there's this community online that I just hope to see it swell even bigger and bigger. I've just, I felt so supportive, supported. And so it's just so nice to meet other
people who are going through this journey and who have platforms like you who wanted to want to get the word out. You know, I feel there are these just genuine people who care and that's made my experience of being back in social media and getting back out into the world and promoting this book feel so much more comfortable. Just that that's just an observation that I've had over the last few months. It's really been an amazing experience.
Michelle (52:22)
awesome to hear. And yeah, it's like anything. Everything has like the pluses and minuses. And I think that that's what it is. If you come into social media, really taking advantage and using it for the good. It's like anything. It's like money. You know, people can say money is evil, but it's actually something that could be used to help a lot of people. So it depends really on the intention behind it. And I think when your intention is connected to purpose, then it's a lot of fun. Then you're like, okay, this is really, yeah.
Jenny Powers (52:35)
Right?
The tool. Right.
Yeah.
I like that. I like that connections. Yeah, it's totally. It's totally neat. Yeah. So, so we're on there. Yeah, and they just came out this week. I don't know when this is going to be airing, but the book came out this week. I think we've hit some number one, like bestseller statuses on a couple of different categories. And so it's been a very exciting time.
Michelle (52:51)
sucklings.
Awesome. That's great.
Amazing. Well, congratulations on the book. And this is fascinating. And I think it's so important because I think that as a society, we're craving to come back to our origins. We really crave that. And I think that we just, we lost it. And so this rekindles a memory because I think that we do store memories in our DNA. There is that kind of knowing that when we hear something, it resonates as true. There's a reason for that. I think it's cause we just, so it's a memory that got just awakened.
Jenny Powers (53:24)
I agree.
Yeah.
my gosh, totally.
Yeah. Yeah. Well, the good news is we still are running our hunter gatherer software. You know what I mean? We still, we have all these capabilities inside of us still. We haven't evolved since, you know, we maybe, for the most part, we haven't evolved since we were hunter gatherers. And it's still in there. We just have to refind, we have to find it. And I think learning about evolution and learning about how we got here,
Michelle (53:51)
Yep.
Yes.
Jenny Powers (54:11)
will really help us make better decisions now. Because like I said, we can adapt with our minds. We can adapt to anything. We're smart. We just have to do the work.
Michelle (54:21)
Yeah.
Yes. Amen. So Jenny, this was an amazing conversation. Thank you so much for coming on and I look forward to any future work that you do.
Jenny Powers (54:33)
Thank you, I really enjoyed talking to you today too.
EP272 The Impact that the Circadian Rhythm, Inflammation, and Liver Health Have on The Menstrual Cycle
Allison is a Traditional Chinese Medicine Practitioner and Integrative Health Practitioner based out of Vancouver British Columbia. She is a fellow of the American Acupuncture and TCM Board of Reproductive Medicine (ABORM) and a member of the Obstetrical Acupuncture Association (OBAA). With additional training in fertility and reproductive health as well as her personal experience with stage 3 endometriosis, Allison is particularly passionate about treating endometriosis and chronic pelvic pain.
Website: https://www.seaofqihealing.com/
Instagram: @sea_of_qi_healing
Tik Tok: https://www.tiktok.com/@sea_of_qi_healing
For more information about Michelle, visit www.michelleoravitz.com
The Wholesome FertilityFacebook group is where you can find free resources and support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2149554308396504/
Instagram: @thewholesomelotusfertility
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/thewholesomelotus/
Transcript:
Michelle:[00:00:00]Welcome to the podcast, Alison. Allison:Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to be here. Michelle: Well, I'm so excited to have you on and I thoroughly enjoy your Instagram, by the way. Allison: Oh, thank you. Michelle: you guys got to check out her Instagram. I have it in the episode notes. You have so much great information. Allison: Oh, thank Michelle: You're, you're really knowledgeable about your topic. Allison: Yeah, I, love doing any kind of, I love the social media part. I love educating. I love trying to have like a fun humorous spin on it too. So I have fun with my social media. Michelle: Awesome. So for the listeners , I would love it. If you can give us a bit about your background and how your own personal journey really got you to the work that you're doing. Allison: Sure. So I'm an acupuncturist and integrative health practitioner based out of Vancouver, B. C. And I have, special interest in kind of fertility, reproductive health, hormone health, menstrual cycle stuff.
I was kind of thrown into that field of work upon graduating school. And[00:01:00]that's kind of when I fell in love with it, when I started learning more about the menstrual cycle and hormones and fertility. Allison: And I realized how much there is to know and how, how many, People who menstruate don't know about their hormones and fertility and so I thought it was such an important aspect of health to to educate more on and it wasn't until a few years into my practice that I was actually diagnosed with my own kind of hormone issues as well. Allison: So that's when I was diagnosed with gynecological condition and Andever since then, I've just been obsessed with learning everything I can about endometriosis and hormones and trying to help people that are kind of in the same shoes that I am.
Michelle: So,so tell us, well, how, how did you actually get into it? Did you, did you work for somebody who specialized in fertility? Michelle: When you got out of school, Allison: Yeah, so the clinic that I wanted to work at that I was kind of interning atin transitioning[00:04:00]into that was their kind of their their bread and butter. So they did a lot of fertility and women's health. And so upon graduating and starting to work there, it was just kind of part of my education of like all my program. Allison: You know, extended learning and mentorships and stuff were under people that specialized in fertility, so I had this, like, really great knowledge base and, you know, experience right off the bat, which was really crucial for specializing in this, and it was, yeah, it really, really helped a lot.
Michelle: that's awesome And so I know that we hear a lot of common myths I mean one of the things I think that was eye opening for me is like Menstrual cycle like pms and all of the things that we have are actually not normal Even though they're common you don't realize this until you learn what you learn And that's when you're like, oh my god, this is actually not normal and it's It's an imbalance and we can work on that. Michelle: Like it almost feels like we just accept it as reality. So I'd love it if you could talk about some of the common myths[00:05:00]that you see and like, let's bust them. Allison: Yeah. I feel like that's a really huge one that like PMS and period pain is normal. And like to an extent, likea little bit of PMS, like a little bit of menstrual discomfort to an extent can be normal. I mean, your body's doing, you know, a very physical thing, but if there's like really severe PMS, that's really disrupting your quality of life.
Allison: If there's really painful cramps, that's impacting your ability to go out with your friends or work or any of that, that's a, that's absolutely a sign that something is wrong, that there's a hormonal issue, there's inflammation, there's something else going on that we need to look further. And you're right, we are just kind of like programmed as women as like, this is just how it is. Allison: We just, you know, suck it up and get on with our day and that's just kind of how I feel like a lot of us, especially my generation, we were just kind of programmed to do that. This is just a part of being a woman and this is a normal part of being a woman. But in fact, our period and it's kind of like our monthly report card of how everything in her body is doing.
Allison: And[00:06:00]it's such a great visual of like okay, these are my PMS symptoms and this is kind of what it's telling me. And then this is how my periodis. And this is what it looks like. And this is what it feels like. And that's also telling you so much information about your hormones. And I think that's kind of what I really love about Chinese medicine too, because even. Allison: If things are like, you know, normal, according to Western medicine, like I have a lot of patients with really bad cramps that go to their doctor and they're like, well, everything in your blood work is normal. Your ultrasound's normal, but they're still having like debilitating pain. And that's when I think like Chinese medicine. Allison: is really powerful because we'll obviously see like, Oh, you've got no tons of liver cheese stagnation or blood stasis, or I'm seeing so many symptoms of coldin the uterus. And it's almost like really, it's just really empowering. I feel like for the patient too, where it's like, no, we don't see everything like checked off as normal, even though your blood work and ultrasound is okay. Allison: I mean, that's really great too. But for Chinese medicine, we're always looking at[00:07:00]this deeper underlying pattern and all these subtleties. And it's kind of painting this picture of the imbalance.
Michelle: Yeah, totally. It's it was really eye opening for me because I had one patient with severe PMS to the point where she was like, I have to avoid people because I'm just not like a kind person around that time. And she was just, and she was actually a friend of mine and I was like, you know what, I'll help you. Michelle: No problem. And so she started coming in And one time she wasn't trying to get pregnant and she was like, she thought she was going to be late because she was like, I'm not getting any of my symptoms and I'm supposed to get them right around this time. Something's off. And then all of a sudden she just gets her period. Michelle: She goes, what? She's like, I just got my period. And I'm like, exactly.I'm like, Allison: I love that. Michelle: G is flowing really freely right now. That's why.Allison: Yeah. That's like the magic of Chinese medicine. Michelle:Totally! Allison:The surprise Michelle: total flow. Yes,[00:08:00]exactly. It's like the flow, Allison: Yeah, your period should kind of sneak up a little bit on you. Yeah.
Michelle: Yeah. I mean, you do feel, you know, you definitely like feel your body's cues and the same thing with ovulation. When you get really in tune with your body, it is important to be able to like pick up on the details, but it shouldn't be so severe to the point where you can't, like you said, you can't deal with normal life events. Allison: Mm hmm. Yeah, definitely. Michelle:So what are some of the most common things that you see when itcomes to the menstrual cycle irregularities? Regarding fertility,Allison: Yeah, so there's a lot of different patterns and that's kind of the really funpart about Chinese medicine is that we're kind of like little detectives and we're like piecing together every symptom and kind of painting this picture of what's going on internally with the patient. So I mean, like each organ system has its own characteristics and they all kind of play a role in fertility and overall health.
Allison: Because we don't really[00:09:00]think of in Chinese medicine as, Oh,the reproductive organs are just their own specific thing. It's kind of the wholebody has has a, has a play in it. So like what you're talking about, the liver chi, the liver chi is so tied to menstrual health. I am working with liver chi day in and day out when I'm working with fertility and endometriosis and hormone health. Allison: So the liver chi is like really, really important to makesure that everything's moving smoothly in the body and that's emotionally and physically. And then like the spleen chi and stomach chi in the digestive system is also really important because we want to make sure that your body is able to get all the nutrients that it needs and there's not a lot of inflammation there. Allison: We want to make sure the blood is moving really smoothly, like blood stagnation, cheese stagnation digestive deficiencies. I see that a lot. And then the kidney organ system is also really tied to fertility in Chinese medicine because it's kind of like, gives you that kind of DNA deep level energy to the egg cells and the sperm cells. Allison: And so making sure that those are really healthy because a lot of poor lifestyle or[00:10:00]genetics can impact the kidney energy system. So we always want to kind of help support the kidney energy with fertility. Michelle:Yeah, for sure. What I find really interesting and hopeful about really how Chinese medicine talks about the kidneys and talks about like the essence is, is that there's like pre heaven and post heaven. And so yes, pre heaven, we can't really do much about because that's pretty much what comes from our parents.
Michelle: But post heaven is really how we choose to live our life. And we've seen that we can actually reverse age like biological age through the choices that we make. And I find that to be great. It's very empowering to know that your choices can make a difference on your body. Allison: Absolutely. Yeah. And I think that kind of goes back to where I really feel like Chinese medicine is such an empowering medicine because there's so much that you can do, diet, lifestyle, herbs, supplements, acupuncture, all those things really can have such a huge positive impact. And it's kind of like, yeah, I love the pre heaven and post heaven. Allison:We are[00:11:00]kind of given what we're got with like our basic genetic blueprint, but our post heaven essence is like epigenetics, where we have the huge percentage of, you know, influence over our health, no matter what our genes are saying and we have so much influence over that that part of it, and I think Chinese medicine plays a huge role in that.
Michelle: And do you find that there is a correlation because I mean, listen, we're living in a, a very toxic life, like the environment, everything's just like around us and the foods that we eat, the extra ingredients that they put in it's it's the reality is that you really have to be careful on what you expose yourself to, what kind of cosmetics. Michelle: and the endocrine disruptors, I feel like that really bogs down the liver and It weakens its ability to do its job. And then sometimes I'll see things like Fibroids or certain things kind of popping up because the body's not able to likereally clear up the toxins. Michelle: And sometimes I'll find that the[00:12:00]person is working in an environment that has more toxins than normal. And so we have to kind of work extra, a little extra to release that or clear that out. And even for IVF, I like to do that as well. Right after retrieval do some kind of like very mild, you know, nothing too harsh But like mild liver detox to just help the body release the excess hormones, you know Because I really feel like that aspect of it can really impact the way the reproductive health expresses itself.
Allison: Yeah, I completely agree. I think there's a lot of, a lot of things in our world right now that are impacting our liver. And we are, as Chinese medicine practitioners, seeing that reflected a lot in liver cheese stagnation. And I think that's why there's so much PMS and period pain and infertility kind of that's pretty rampant because we are seeing, like I don't think I have a single patient where their liver didn't need like a little bit of support in the Western sense and in the Chinese. Allison: medicine sense.[00:13:00]So yeah, I do love that you that you do pay attention to that. And especially like post IVF or something, when all those medications you're it's really working the liver and not that those are bad medications at all because they're really useful and they're doing really wonderful things for patients to help reach their, their goals. Allison: But yeah, you're right. I do think there is a place where we can kind of help support the liver, especially post IVF. Michelle: Yeah for sure. So as far as endometriosis, I know that like gut health is really, really, really important when it comes to endometriosis. So the inflammation, how that impacts leaky gut. So what are some of the correlations or like the patterns, not necessarily just with Chinese medicine, and you could talk about that as well, but like just some of the links that you've noticed or the things that tend to go hand in hand.
Michelle: With endometriosis. Allison: Yeah, that's a really good question. I love that you asked that because endometriosis is such a full body disease, like it's not just[00:14:00]something that's happening in the pelvis. So yeah, the gut connection is huge. I find that to be honestly, like one of the biggest roots of something that we need to focus on and kind of like rectify with a lot of my patients with endometriosis because the gut is such a foundational pillar of health. Allison: And so if there's anything going on there with like leaky gut or microbiome or their subclinical gut infections or SIBO or whatever is going on, then we really need to work on. Kind of correcting the dysbiosis because not only does that create a lot of inflammation, but there's also such a huge microbiome and bacterial component to endometriosis.
Allison: Like, there's so much research coming out about how people withendometriosis have different vaginal and uterine microbiomes. And all of our microbiomes in our body are connected. So I really do feel like if we focus a lot on gut health and working on any kind of issues that are super apparent there, then it makes such a huge difference in like overall inflammatory levels, which are totally going to[00:15:00]help with a lot of the endosymptoms and the endo pain.
Allison:But also kind of helping with the microbiome component is really important for fertility because we do know a good vaginal and uterine microbiomeis super important for fertility, but I also find it really helpful for endosymptoms. And then I also love looking at the nervous system because I find that if we're kind of like, if we've got some like circadian rhythm dysfunction, because we're not sleeping well or we don't have good sleep hygiene or if we're just kind of continuously operating out of fight or flight mode and we're just never in parasympathetic mode, that's going to totally cause a lot of inflammation in the body and that's going to absolutely affect your endometriosis.
Allison: So those are two things that I find. a lot of people with endo can benefit from working on. And that's, yeah, correcting any gut dysbiosis and really working on gut health. And then also really working with the nervous system. Like we really need to work on this chronic stress epidemic and like having a good circadian rhythm. Allison: I've been doing a[00:16:00]lot of, I've been like looking a lot into like the cortisol awakening response lately. I've been really nerding out about it and how it's how your cortisol levels like really need to have that initial spike in the morning. And not only for you to like feel good and get out of bed, but also it's areally important indicator of like inflammatory levels in your body.
Allison: And there's also a really important autoimmune component. And we do know that endometriosis has this kind of auto-immune overlap with it. And so any of my patients that I am hearing like, Oh, how do you feel like when you get out of bed? Like, how long does it take you to kind of feel alive in the morning? Allison: Once you get out of bed, if it's like, Oh, two hours and five cups of coffee. I definitely know that there is some cortisol awakening response that we need to kind of work on in order to like really help with the immune and inflammatory stuff. So, yeah, those are a couple of things that I'm always looking at for my endo patients.
Michelle: That's really great information. Vaginal microbiome I think is huge because I actually was at a mega spore[00:17:00]biotic on the microbiome labs.They had a little conference and I listened to a lecture by Dr. Jolene Brighton and she was talking about the vaginal microbiome and
Allison: Oh, I love her.
Michelle: She's amazing.Michelle: She always has great information. She just always delivers. And so she talked about that and she said that in, in Spain, they'll always check the vaginal microbiome. And especially when people are doing IVF and transfers specifically. And I had one of my patients going to Spain. Michelle: A lot of people go to Spain. I mean, they save money. The only thing is they lose money with the flights and everything, but they're really good doctors and like the clinics are great. And so what they do is they actually have, I'm almost like always on a protocol to check their vaginal microbiome. Michelle: They always check it before transfers and they have these women going on vaginal suppositories for the microbiome to support it. And I had. A recent patient who was like advanced[00:18:00]maternal age and she's pregnant. But she was on the suppositories.
Michelle: They were checking and making sure because they said that she was mentioning that there's a link between, I guess, imbalanced vaginal microbiomes, a little different in the sense that it's. Like, you don't want diversity. You want it to be more like a specific type of strain. She was saying that there's a connection between a poor balance of the vaginal microbiome and recurrent miscarriages, unexplained infertility and failed transfers. And that's huge. That's so important. And nobody really checks here. Like. In our world, North America. Allison: Yeah. Well, actually in Vancouver, where I am, there's one clinic that does for some patients. And I, I have like the past, yeah, the past year. So I've been having a lot more patients do some microbiome testing. They'll do the swab. It's called the Emma Ellis. I think that they do it here. In in a couple of the clinics and they'll do the probiotic suppositories.
Allison: And I honestly like tell my patients to go get them[00:19:00]too and jerk them where they can find them because I think it's always a benefit. Like it's not, it's such a harmless intervention. It can only help like and it's, they're so easy to do. It's so affordable. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and it does improve transfer results and pregnancy rates and everything, and so, yeah, I'm, I'm a huge fan of
Michelle: no brainer.
Allison: testing for fertility.
Allison:Yeah,
Michelle: Yeah. It's a no brainer. And I think that it's so important and I, I'm so glad you brought it up. And I'm glad to know that some places are doing it places. I haven't seen it yet. I haven't seen that to be like really. And I've been actually running it for some of my patients. But I'm glad to
Allison: Oh, nice.
Michelle: People are starting to do that.
Michelle: That's great. And then as far as a nervous system and circadian rhythm, that's huge because it's kind of like, I always look at it almost as like the second-hand is going to impact the hour hand. So like the second hand could be like our 24-hour cycle versus our 30 day cycle or[00:20:00]infradian rhythm. So the circadian rhythm impacts the infradian rhythm.
Michelle: So it's important to have a good circadian rhythm. Interestingly, if I lookback, I had, I also have a history of We all started as patients, a lot of us. So I have a
Allison: Yeah, right? Ah. Michelle:I did was I, I used to have the worst circadian rhythm. I used to not beable to wake up in the mornings. Michelle: Like I would, if left to my own devices, I would stay up until like, I would sleep until 2 PM some days when I was like younger in my twenties, andthen I'd. I'd stay up till two, three, four sometimes. I mean, I was just completely off and I don't know, I always blamed it on college or whatever, but it was just definitely my rhythm.
Michelle: It was just the way my body was. And now I'm much more regular just over time. And it kind of synchronized with like my, menstrual cycle. So is that something that you see often?[00:21:00]Allison: Oh, absolutely. Yeah, and it always kind of goes back to like, Chinese medicine roots of like, we, we need to sync with nature. Like, when the sun's down, that's our yin time. That's not the time to do a lot of work or exercise. That'sthe time that we're supposed to be slowing down. We're supposed to be asleep.
Allison: Like, I'm always coaching my patients, like, I want you in bed. by 10pm, 11pm at the latest. I do not care if, like, you're naturally a night owl. Like, that is the kind of ideal Chinese medicine bedtime. Because we really do get those better hours of sleep in the earlier hours of the night. We get that deep, restful sleep. Allison: And it really does make a huge difference. I've been, yeah, personally, like, really prioritizing regular sleep cycle the past couple years. And it's been, like, revolutionary for me for how I feel like mood and energy, but also I my endosymptoms and I also had an autoimmune disease. And so it's been really helpful for that. Allison: So I think it's really easy to overlook the basics of like, well, I'm gettingmy eight hours, even if I'm going to bed at 2am or,[00:22:00]you know, sleep, I'm getting enough, I'm getting about six, seven hours. That should be enough. But it's like really irregular times. Like your body can't really cope with that.
Allison: And I think it's really important that we go back to these like. Super basic principles of like, are you sleeping on time? Are you eating at regular intervals?Are you doing regular movement? Like these really basic things, these small habits really add up to make such a huge difference in health problems and especially even like super complex chronic health problems.
Allison: It can be really revolutionary. Michelle:Oh yeah. And there's definitely studies that have been linked to irregular periods and also infertility when it comes to having night shifts. So like night shift hours, it really impacts the reproductive health. So it's really fascinating because it's not just the hours. It's really when it's the, when. Michelle: not just the amount. Allison: Mm hmm. Michelle: So I studied Ayurvedic medicine. That was also very eye opening when it comes to like really understanding the rhythms of nature and how[00:23:00]our bodies synchronize and also the elements of food and really understanding like how our bodies do better.
Michelle: It's almost like really understanding the time cycle of the day and optimizing it. And when it comes to intermittent fasting. Fasting itself is actually really, it could be very beneficial if done right. And I want to say that like really,really in strong words, if done right, because I personally, from what I understoodand how much I've, I've learned as far as the sun goes, like the sun helps our acne, which is our digestifier. Michelle: So if we, the best time to eat really is during the day. So breakfast lunch, lunch should be the largest meal of the day and that's when you should have those difficult to digest proteins and have that like during that time because at that time the sun is at its highest Where the day is the most young it could be and so you want that young energy that[00:24:00]fire to be supported by nature's rhythms to help your own digestive fire and And then what you could do if you want to fast is fast at night versus in the morning.
Michelle: And that's what a lot of people do. They'll fast in the morning and it's been shown that it could possibly not be great for women because it's been mostly studied on men and they have a completely different rhythm. So that's something that I always suggest. If you really do feel that you need to fast for a little bit and have like a little break digestive wise, it's better to do it when the sun goes down. Allison: Yeah, I completely agree. And I do feel the same about fasting. Like, I, to an extent, I like fasting, like, you know, a good maybe 12, 13 hours, maybe 14 hours for some metabolically flexible people, but I've always been a huge component of breakfast just because, in Chinese medicine, like, the stomach channel, time, is in that morning, and that's kind of always when historically theysay that's a great time to eat,[00:25:00]and I feel like, yeah, this huge intermittent fasting kind of craze can be good to an extent and when utilized properly, but I'm always going to go back to, like, what have we been doing for 2, 000 years that has been working really well?
Allison: Like, I think there's a lot of parts to Chinese medicine where yeah, a lot of the health trends and health fads are just not going to resonate, and that's kind of,like, always my good reminder of like, okay, well, let's go back to what nature and what has been working for humans for, you know, thousands of years.
Allison: Right.
Michelle: think about like the light cause like light light hygiene, cause you want to call it, you want, you want to get exposure to light early in the morning so that your body knows. Cause that's how our bodies respond. Our bodies really respond to light. So I always kind of, I always prescribe this, like go early in the morning, get some sunlight while it's safe early, early. Michelle: And then of course, obviously protect your skin if you're skin sensitive and especially later on, but like early in the morning, it's easier. For your body to process.[00:26:00]I almost kind of compare this in my mind as like a hose of water. So you want water. When it's trickling, it's much easier to drink.
Michelle: And then like in the middle of the day, when it's like shooting out, you're, you're going to choke. It's too much. So it's better to have it early in the morning. We're able to really get the vitamins. And I remember my grandmother always telling me early morning sun will give you the most vitamins. Michelle: That's how she explained it. The most nutrients. And she was right. She was right. She said that. She's like early morning sun. That's what you want. And so, and not only that, it also anchors the circadian rhythm and then also getting moonlight. So like not having the fake light, dimming the light at night, and that could really, so that's why I would say like light hygiene is to kind of dim it at night so that we go back to our roots.
Michelle: And this is just, it's what nature has intended for us. Allison: Yeah. Yeah. I completely agree. All of that. I mean, it's always a good reminder to go back to[00:27:00]nature of, like, the super basics. When it's dark, like, it should be dark. It should be quiet. It should be in. It should be asleep. And then, yeah, during the daytime, that's when things are active, including our digestive system. Allison: Like, it seems, yeah, nature was designed for it to be pretty clear to us,like, what we're supposed to be doing. Michelle: Yeah. For sure. And what are your thoughts about taking melatonin supplements?
Allison: think it can be helpful. I mean, I am not a huge and high dose melatonin. So I'm more of like the one to three milligrams because that's kind of akin to what is naturally produced in the body. There are a lot of there's some research that shows that a high dose can be good for endometriosis, like even up to 10 milligrams because of its antioxidant effect.
Allison: But I, I've, I've only had it be helpful for a small group of patients, like not a lot. So it's not my favorite one to go to because I just, I don't think that it's going to be hugely beneficial for the circadian rhythm. But I do find it[00:28:00]helpful for some patients and I love it as like a general antioxidant. Allison: If your levels are kind of low because you know, we're not, we have so much light in the night time and stuff. So our bodies are naturally kind of, I bet a bit melatonin deficient. If it's, if you're taking a decent dosage of like one to three milligrams and it's really helping you sleep and you're noticing a huge difference, awesome.
Allison: But I also see a lot of patients where it doesn't do a lot for them or it makes them feel groggy. And so I think it's a really case by case dependent. Like if it works for you and you're on a good dosage, awesome. If it's not, like I'm not too hard pressed, like there's a lot of other alternatives. I like, I love a lot of adaptogens and stuff. Allison: too, that can kind of help reset their circadian rhythm too. So, yeah, it's not my absolute favorite go to but there is like some really good research with it for fertility and egg quality because of its antioxidant effect. So I don't hate it. Michelle: Yeah. Well, the great thing is, is that getting that early morning sunlight induces cellular melatonin. So it actually brings that out of you, so it is a great way to get that,
Allison: that is true.
Michelle: natural light,[00:29:00]but also through light therapy. So light therapy can help that as well. Michelle: So is there anything else that you're like passionate about, excited about that you're like learning about recently that you're finding is really helpful for your patients? Allison: Besides the cortisol awakening response, which I've been really nerding out about and just like cortisol in general, I find it's such an underrated hormone and people are either like, Oh, we want to squash it or we want to raise it. But that's like so much more complex and intricate than that. So I've been really kind of diving into that and like some more Dutch test stuff.
Allison: I find, I am always just learning, I love learning so much about estrogen metabolism and methylation because I find that a lot of patients who are struggling with reproductive health stuff and fertility and especially endo and stuff a lot of them are, we're just not metabolizing and methylating estrogen correctly. Allison: And so it's, that's causing a lot of symptoms. And so I've been really kind of doing a lot of research into that, which I've been finding so interesting. So yeah, I feel like that's kind[00:30:00]of, yeah, liver, cortisol, all that kind of
Michelle: stuff, liver stuff again. So what, what have you.
Allison: Always back to the liver.
Michelle: Yes. What have you seen is effective for estrogen metabolism.
Allison: yeah, well, it depends, like, at which phase people are having the issues. If it's, like the metabolizing into the 4 2 OH, or if it's, like, the actual methylation process, because there's different, you know, supplements and herbs that all, I'll recommend. So that's why I really love testing. So we can really like see exactly where the issue is, or if it's in phase three estrogen metabolism, where we really need to focus on the gut health again because there's too much beta glucuronidase, that's recirculating estrogen levels and stuff. Allison: And so there's different things that we can do for that. But yeah, I just love like, The basic things that your liver needs is like magnesium, B vitamins enough protein, enough iron. Like there's some really basic stuff that I think, if a lot of if we're just really focusing on through like healthy nutrition and stuff, then alot of that stuff can be helped.
Allison: [00:31:00]So we don't, honestly, we don't even need like, crazy amounts of supplements and herbs if there's these issues going on. Sometimes your body just needs like a really basic levels of magnesium and B vitamins and hydration and amino acids and stuff and then all these things can kind of work efficiently. Michelle: Yeah. Sometimes I find just warm water and lemon on an empty stomach every day because lemon is like the sour taste for the liver. Just something like that. It's such a simple, it's so simple. It's almost too simple that people think it's like, how could this work? It's too simple,
Allison: Yeah.
Michelle: Amazing that I find.
Allison: Yeah, that's kind of how I feel about like castor oil packs, too.
Michelle: Yeah. Oh, yeah. So talk about those because that that's actually really effective I find and moving like the lymph and moving that stagnation. Allison: Absolutely. Yeah, I'm a huge fan of castor oil packs, especially like after my patients have endosurgery where they have laparoscopic abdominal surgery to remove the endo lesions. I love using[00:32:00]castor oil packs post operatively to help like reduce scar tissue formation and to really help with the healing process and the blood circulation and lymphatic movement and everything.
Allison: So castor oil packs are basically you apply castor oil to the abdomen or liver and then you place a heat pack on it and you kind of just relax with the heat. To as the oil kind of seeps into your skin and does all the magic that it needs to. And it is such like a simple intervention just like warm lemon water in the morning that I find is just such an easy thing to do. Allison: It's really cost effective, it's really relaxing. Like it doesn't take a lot of effort. You can do it like while you're watching tv. Like it's a really easy thing to kind of incorporate into, into your life. But I do find it really, really helpful for like reducing period cramps, helping people to recover post abdominal surgery for liver detoxification.
Allison: Like done regularly, it can, you know, have a lot of really positive impact.
Michelle: for sure And what are your thoughts on when to do it on the menstrual cycle because I do hear like conflicting perspectives on when[00:33:00]you should do it and then you can also move it at certain times to the liver rather than the abdomen. Allison: Yeah, that's true. Yeah, so I'll never recommend it during menstruation, or like at least during your heavy days because I do think it can cause a little bit too much blood circulation and that just might increase the bleeding. And then I'll never recommend it after ovulation if you're trying to conceive.
Allison: So if there's any chance of pregnancy, we kind of just want to like take care of that like precious area. We don't want to do anything to moving or detoxing. Like that's even like a point in the menstrual cycle where I won't do too many abdominal points. Like I kind of just like let your body do what it needs todo. Allison:Like it knows how to do it. I'll do a lot more distal stuff to kind of help with blood circulation and hormone balance and whatever we're working on. But yeah, anytime that there's any chance of pregnancy, I like to leave the lower belly alone.
Michelle: No, it's true. I, I do the same thing. Actually. I do like right after ovulation. I tell them not to do it and they're like, and it pretty much[00:34:00]minimizes the window to like, after period, you know, in between that point, but I, usually like to be a little more conservative on that as well, unless you're trying to prepare your body ahead of time. Allison: I'm definitely on the cautious side. Michelle:Yeah, me too. You might as well. Yeah, totally. So this is great. Great conversation. I'm sure we can keep talking about all kinds of topics and questions.And so if people want to work with you, so you do Dutch testing, you do sometesting and you do some online work.
Allison: Yeah, so I'm CFG healing on all the social medias and my website. I'm seeing patients in person in Vancouver and Burnaby, British Columbia, and I do see a small amount of patients virtually. So if you're elsewhere and want to work with me, we can do some telehealth.
Michelle: Fantastic. Well, Alison, it was awesome speaking to you. And thank you so much for your insight and information. And guys, I[00:35:00]definitely recommend you check out her Instagram because it's like loads of information. You're going to learn so much. I'm learning so much because I love really collaborating and talking to other practitioners because you can always learn something new. Michelle: That's what I find. You just can always learn something because everybody has a different perspective. Allison: Yeah, that's so true, and I'm an avid regular listener to your podcast, and I could say the same. I always learn so much from you and all the people that you interview, so thank you for doing what you do.
Michelle: Oh, that's awesome. Well, I admire you. So that's really nice to hear that coming from you. So thank you so much, Alison, for coming on today.
Allison:Thanks, Michelle.